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BS: The Religious Left

Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 06:46 PM
Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 06:48 PM
DougR 29 Jan 05 - 07:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 05 - 07:22 PM
Bill D 29 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 05 - 07:57 PM
Peace 29 Jan 05 - 08:08 PM
Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 08:10 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 29 Jan 05 - 08:16 PM
robomatic 29 Jan 05 - 08:26 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 08:59 PM
Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 09:10 PM
Greg F. 29 Jan 05 - 09:29 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 09:32 PM
robomatic 29 Jan 05 - 10:43 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jan 05 - 11:32 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 30 Jan 05 - 06:36 AM
Jim Tailor 30 Jan 05 - 06:41 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 30 Jan 05 - 07:00 AM
catlova 30 Jan 05 - 08:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM
robomatic 30 Jan 05 - 10:25 AM
Joe Offer 30 Jan 05 - 07:04 PM
Rapparee 30 Jan 05 - 08:58 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 30 Jan 05 - 09:29 PM
khandu 30 Jan 05 - 09:44 PM
dianavan 30 Jan 05 - 11:11 PM
Peace 30 Jan 05 - 11:49 PM
Little Hawk 31 Jan 05 - 12:32 AM
EagleWing 31 Jan 05 - 05:03 PM
Peace 31 Jan 05 - 05:27 PM
Little Hawk 31 Jan 05 - 05:45 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 31 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 31 Jan 05 - 05:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jan 05 - 06:21 PM
Little Hawk 31 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM
Jim Tailor 31 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 31 Jan 05 - 07:39 PM
PoppaGator 31 Jan 05 - 08:27 PM
GUEST,sambo_88 23 Feb 05 - 12:05 AM
Little Hawk 23 Feb 05 - 12:34 AM
GUEST,jim tailor 23 Feb 05 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,jim tailor 23 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,PoppaGator 23 Feb 05 - 02:12 PM
Don Firth 23 Feb 05 - 07:17 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 23 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM
Jim Tailor 23 Feb 05 - 08:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 05 - 08:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 05 - 08:12 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 23 Feb 05 - 08:30 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:46 PM

I think abortion is wrong

Hey Joe,

Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:48 PM

I answered your accusation of "nonsense" GregF, and the best you can do is change the subject?

Keep it groovy, man!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:16 PM

Right! Let's hang all the Baptists!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:22 PM

Just because you think something is better not made illegal doesn't mean you have to think it's right. And just because you think something is wrong doesn't mean you necessarily think the right way to deal with it is make a law against it.

It sees to me that by making this a matter of constitutional rights, rather than a matter of law, you in the States have made things a lot more complicated than you needed to.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM

?? that one got me, Doug.... I'm a bit slow on the uptake, I guess


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:57 PM

"I even went so far as to become a Southern Baptist for a while, until I realized that they didn't hold 'em under long enough." - Kinky Friedman.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:08 PM

"I think abortion is wrong - but I also think it is wrong to try to control it by legislating it away. That answer makes me a pariah among both liberals and conservatives."

That makes me a pariah, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:10 PM

"I think abortion is wrong"

Why?

(now two people can answer)

Hey Kooky, have a ginchy night!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:16 PM

My, my! What hath thou wrought, Brother Joseph. And criticizing clones, yet! I'm not even going to offer my views on this subject.
No one is going to move an inch. Everyone will say what they believe, and confuse it with the ultimate truth. I find it comforting to believe that I don't know everything. It's a great relief, actually.

But I'm with you, Joe. Let sleeping Baptists lie. Sleeping Atheists, too.

Go at it fellers!

I'm going to sit this one out. I think this thread has lived it's full life anyway.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:26 PM

Jim, thank you for your even tempered and well written response to my post above. I could have gone on for pages and it's a fine thing I didn't. It's a matter I've gone over and over again on my own and with my relatives. And life certainly goes better with faith (said the physicist).

Re: Abortion: I think it is equally ludicrous to insist that a group of cells a day after fertilization is a baby as to insist that a group of cells a day before delivery is anything less. There is a song reference here, it is Monty Python's "Every sperm is sacred".

I think the US Supreme Court worked hard and rendered a good decision in Roe V. Wade. When you consider how long that decision has held through emotion laden contension and rapid technological advances, it is quite remarkable.

Those dreadful third trimester abortions exist for one reason only: where the mother's life is endangered. There was a story about just such a case written by a woman in just that situation in the Boston Sunday Globe about six months ago. I defy anyone to read it and not be outraged by the blanket prohibition that almost got through Congress last year. It would put a conscienscious doctor in an impossible situation. (Having not read the bill, I'm trusting to what I heard, that the bill did not make allowance for the health of the mother).

I don't know where the Biblical foundation of the anti-abortion movement lies, (and of course, there are probably people who don't like abortions who don't need a Biblical foundation. I don't like abortions). I am curious as to where the concept of 'cell division' = 'baby' comes from.

And of course, to put it bluntly, God performs most abortions. I had a friend spontaneously abort after a few months. She and her husband were devastated.

Whatever the numbers of surgical abortions may be, each of them is the result of an individual decision, predicament, call it what you will. I'd rather have individuals in charge of their own lives. Someone might be willing to deal with a hydrocephalic young 'un. Someone else might not.

My pet peeve is with those who say they are "anti-abortion, except in cases of rape or incest." They have just said they are PRO abortion, provided its on their terms.

The term 'abortion on demand' is misleading to the extent it makes it seem like a stop at the hairdresser. It's an embarassing invasive procedure that has significant repercussions to the life of at least one family. If a woman is that intent on terminating her own pregnancy, and she can do so safely, I say her decision trumps government.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:59 PM

Akenaton, you are probably right in what you say about most religious people...or at least a lot of them. That's what bothers me about organized religion, just as it bothers you and Bill D.

You said, "Although I'm an atheist, that doesn't mean that I can't be "spiritual".

I agree. An atheist can be spiritual. You clearly have quite a good spiritual awareness, in my opinion. Spirituality does not require any religion, it simply requires a keen awareness of the tremendous value of life and the tremendous value of others and of self. It requires an open heart and an open mind. It requires respect for self and for others. It can be united harmoniously with religion or it can function fine without it.

That's why I like the lines in the John Lennon song, "Imagine"...

"Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do, nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too..."


Geez, Doug, you made me laugh so hard with that line about "hanging the baptists that I spilled my drink!" :-) Naw...I say just give 'em enough rope to hang themselves instead. That usually works better, I think, and it's nonviolent...

My apologies to the Baptists among you! Just couldn't resist...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:10 PM

"Having not read the bill, I'm trusting to what I heard, that the bill did not make allowance for the health of the mother

You can find out for yourself here


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:29 PM

I answered your accusation of "nonsense",

Actually, Jim, no, you didn't- you dodged it & not too skilfully, at that.

and the best you can do is change the subject?

Sorry again, but its the same subject: the way you personally choose to define "abortion", "genocide", and "life" is the point at issue.

Just 'cause you happen to believe something, or believe IN something, don't make it so.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:32 PM

I wouldn't highly recommend abortion, as a practice, but I would not presume to tell other people whether they can or cannot do it. That is entirely up to them, as far as I'm concerned, and it depends on many, many factors. Each situation has to be dealt with on its own merits.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:43 PM

Thanks, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:32 PM

Gee, Jerry, I'm sorry. You know where I think a lot of the trouble is - legalism. Everybody has to have proof, to see things in black and white, right and wrong, truth and lies. The atheists and the liberal and conservative religious people are all the same - they're all tied to their doctrines, all so sure they know the truth that they're afraid to ponder the questions. I think the truth lies somewhere in the ever-changing flow of things. I suppose we have to have rules and definitions and doctrines and all that, to give us a hint of understanding of the flow - but then we get mired down when we hold onto those doctrines and rules and deify them.

Yes, Jim, I do think that abortion is wrong and that the world would be a better place if we could significantly reduce the number of abortions - but I refuse to see right and wrong in legalistic terms, and I find myself boxed into corners when I try to explain my position in terms that are not my own. So, no, if you cannot accept my statement that I believe abortion is wrong, then I cannot explain it to you in terms you can understand. If you see legal coercion as the one and only way to reduce the number of abortions, then you and I cannot communicate. Too bad - we could be on the same side, if you could be a bit more open to differences in opinion and alternative means to a common end. That's why I cannot be either a Republican or a Democrat - because I cannot buy their line hook, line and sinker, and both sides demand unquestioning loyalty. There is no room for moderates any more, and certainly no foom for free thinkers who do not tie ourselves to any ideology.

-Joe Offer-


...but now I suppose I have to lapse into legalism to explain something to Jerry. The pope isn't infallible - but some of the doctrines he promulgates can be infallible if they meet a raft of restrictions and qualifications. One major restriction is that almost everybody and his brother must already agree with the doctrine for centuries beforehand. Infallibility was declared in the 1870's, and has been invoked only twice - to bestow some noncontroversial titles on Mary, the mother of Jesus. Some say the pope had more credibility before the declaration of the much-misunderstood doctine of infallibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:36 AM

Thanks, Joe:

I was a Catholic during the years when the Pope passed a ruling on birth control. Perhaps I missunderstood it, but I thought there was a term that differentiated between picking the Yankees to win the last Championship playoff over the Red Sox, and making an official pronouncement. I keep vaguely recalling the term ex-cathedra. At the time of the ruling, the Catholics I knew took his ruling to be an official church doctrine and there was a lot of controversy over it.

But, on a broader term, I'm with you, Joe. I think for most people, it's difficult to carry on a conversation because rigor mortis of the mind set in years ago. I find it easy to talk with Bill and Little Hawk and Amos, although we don't agree on much, because they will carry on a conversation. Some people consider an argument the ultimate parlor game. I don't. I really want to understand how people think, and have communion with them. (Funny how terms take on rigid meanings... like communion... isn't that when you eat the body and blood of Christ?.. no, communion is drawing close to someone or something, and feeling connected and communi-cating.) That's what I seek. Not everyone is interested in doing that.

For many years, I shared a wonderful communion with three friends of mine. Art Thieme was a thousand miles away and did not believe in God. Dennis was the Lutheran Pastor of the church I was going to at that time, and the third person was a woman I worked with who, if she believed in God, rarely acknowledged it. She was a very cynical, worst-case scenario person. We were an odd lot.. I don't think that you could find a more unlikely group of people, and there was never a time when we were all together. Art and I exchanged letters constantly, I shared portions of our letters with Dennis and my co-worker, and my letters to Dennis with Art and her. At work, I'd start most days over a cup of coffee with my co-worker and we'd talk about things I was discussing in letters, and Dennis and I would have breakfast together and commune. He'd bring in letters with sections highlighted, that he wanted to talk about. It was an exciting time in my life. Art still doesn't believe in God, Dennis has retired and moved away and doesn't communicate and the woman is probably as cynical as ever. I haven't seen her in years. And yet we were all changed. We never reached agreement on much of anything, but we loved and respected each other, and came to understand each other on a level that is far too uncommon in life. It was so beautiful because no one tried to "win" an argument, and people listened with as much sincerity as they spoke.

Once in awhile, people can rise above their ideologies. Funny thing is, I believe if I lived closer to Bill D, Amos and Little Hawk (and you) we could have that wonderful interchange, respecting each other, and coming to know each other without judgment. And we probably would never agree on much of anything.

Good men come in all flavors.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:41 AM

Sorry Joe,

I only asked you why you think it is wrong -- not what you'd do about it. Just, why do you think it is "wrong".

You have no idea how close we might be -- I've never said anything about how I might wish to "solve" it -- I've just contended that the left, pro-abortion-on-demand is the extreme position.

Good morning!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:00 AM

Oh yeah, and you could add freda underhill and brucie and C-flat and numerous others to a group who could get together over a cup of coffee, tea or a bottle of beer and communicate. I could never list all the friends I have in here with whom I'd enjoy that level of communion.

Art, definitely.

And Bert...

and padre, and...

You get the idea.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: catlova
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:00 AM

Back to an earlier part of this thread, about who thinks what and why.. My father was a lapsed Catholic, (Oz-Irish background) & reacted very strongly against the Church. My mother was a former Oz-Scottish Presbyterian sunday school teacher, who left the church and all things religious in her late twenties. They had four kids and brought us up agnostic. The oldest child took on the heavy athiesm of my father, the next two were mildly agnostic, and i became Buddhist.

We all inherited leftist views.

Looking back on it all, I realised that while my father became strongly anti Catholic, a lot of the ideals he instilled in us (fairness, social conscience, service, helping, whatever) he learnt from the church. My mother also spent years helping voluntarily in various community organisations, that prasctise of service she also learnt in her church. I have also noticed Christians who move into Eastern based religions who go in, become "converted", "initiated" whatever, and take in a whole lot of views and attitudes about religion that they learnt in their original church/culture.

It is very hard to examine our own attitudes and work out what came from where - so much of how we interact is based on what we learnt in the family home. But for people who are religious, all their actions, positive and negative, will ultimately be viewed by others in terms of their professed religious ideals. That's the way the world is.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM

It always seems strange, the way people use that expression "a bunch of cells", as if that isn't a perfectly accurate definition of all of us at every stage of our lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:25 AM

Jerry:
I have experienced some of what you have through living in an international house at college, and later with a group of coworkers, all engineers, Jewish, Roman Catholic, Baptist, and Mormon. It would be exaggerating for me to call it 'communion', but the flavor of the interaction is much the same. Getting together over lunch and solving the problems of the world with a bunch of guys with all that variety is one of the things that makes America great.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:04 PM

Well, I didn't want to turn this into an abortion thread, so please don't follow me on this. But since Jim asked, I'll answer - I think abortion is wrong because it takes away either life or the potential for life. I think we instinctively know that even if we make the choice to have an abortion, we grieve the loss of something. Abortion is never a reason for celebration - but perhaps in certain desperate situations, it may be the only choice.

The women I know who had abortions were in impossible relationships with men, relationships where it would be dangerous to bear or rear a child - and they did not seem to be able to find a way to get out of the relationship. So, although I think their abortions were wrong and I mourn the loss of their children, I think it may have been the correct decision for them, given the circumstances.

And it you want to discussion further, please start another thread.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:58 PM

Dogmatism of any sort bothers me. To say to me "you CANNOT" riles me up and makes me want to do it. So does "you MUST".

You must go to church every Sunday or you'll go spinning down to Hell.
You cannot eat meat on Friday -- except this was pretty much revoked.


You must be "born again" of water and the spirit. Well, I was baptized when I was about 10 days old. I'm told that I baptized the priest right back.

You must accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. Well, JC didn't say that -- he said "No one comes to the Father except through me." It's different.

That is, of course, IF everything in the NT that is attributed to Jesus of Nazareth is actually what JoN actually said or did....


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:29 PM

Hey, Rap:

Dogmatism is kinda like astigmatism. They both limit your vision.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: khandu
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:44 PM

"Let each man work out his own salvation with fear & trembling."

k


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:11 PM

Well, I have stayed out of this (except to correct a grammatical error) but now I have to say that I know I am left but I also know that I am not religious.

When I was pregnant with my daughter, I was not in a secure situation. I had a three year old son and had just separated from dad with no hope of financial support. Many, many people suggested that I have an abortion. I never even considered it.

She had been conceived in love. I was already a mother so my life wasn't going to be radically altered by another baby. I didn't want my son to grow up as an only child. I had already bonded with the baby within. I made the right choice for me. It wasn't based on law, religious conviction or financial situation.

Every woman should have this choice. Doesn't matter if you are right or left. Some will choose to abort and some will choose to give birth - it all depends on your circumstances in life. Nobody has the right to tell a woman what she should do in such a situation. She has the right to decide and she is the one that has to live with the decision.

BTW - Yes, me and my little family struggled through poverty but we had a warm home and plenty to eat. Eventually I went to university and launched a career. My son is a successful businessman. My daughter is studying to become an architecht (I can't even spell it).

So you see, it doesn't matter what other people think is best for you. You have to do what is best for yourself. My mind boggles when I hear people debating something that is highly personal. How would anyone know what is right for another?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:49 PM

I think one obvious answer to decreasing the number of abortions that occur is to be more careful when engaging in sex. And before some individual jumps all over this, I mean BOTH parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:32 AM

Definitely. Lack of care in that department is pretty foolish.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: EagleWing
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:03 PM

A GUEST on 27/1/05 said "Okay,it's a generalisation but;
Right wing Xians....old testament
Left wing Xians....new testament"

I disagree. Read the prophets such as Amos. Plenty of left wing stuff there. The prophets are continually calling for justice. But then even some of that difficult stuff in Leviticus is about justice. The above is definitely a generalisation and an innacurate one at that.

I notice that most of this thread is from citizens of the US. Just thought I'd put in a UK 2 pennyworth.

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:27 PM

I believe in God. Period. I justify that belief to nobody under any circumstance. Period. I have read the Bible entire, in three versions over the course of the years. Nothing I read there has changed my mind about God: God exists and has worked some wonders for me personally. In my perception, God brought many very kind and caring people into my life from all over the world. That I know to be fact--for me. Who else does or doesn't believe me? Than matters nowt, IMO.

I do not mean to sound abrasive--it's straight talk, that's all. I do not support 'abortion on demand'. I do not support the death penalty as a general rule. I have never voted right of center in my life, although I have sometimes not voted left of center by marring my ballot. I am not religious in the 'go to church' sense, but I pray each and every night. I agree that women need more protection under the laws of all countries. I do not agree that they should be in a combat zone. I give my seat to older people on the bus (although older people are getting more difficult to find these days, and I hold doors for women even if they don't like it.

I don't know where that would place me on the spectrum of left/right. If you figger it out, let me know. I have always wondered.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:45 PM

Well, it doesn't matter, Bruce. "Left and Right" are just labels someone made up in order to divide people against each other. Division is what drives the engine of politics...just as it drives a professional game like hockey.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM

I think you are High, brucie.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:55 PM

..not in a drug content, but meaning Elevated. Risen Up.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:21 PM

Just because you think someone has the right to choose in some situation where does not imply you think that whatever they choose will be right. Just that it's their choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM

Right, McGrath.

I read a great quote today... "Political correctness, no matter how well it is intended, always ends up as an attack on freedom of speech." (or freedom of choice)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM

D-Con

...it's just a label.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:39 PM

I thought that D-Con was a rat poison that Muhhamed Ali used to hawk on tv commercials.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: PoppaGator
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:27 PM

It's been a couple of days since Com Seangan posted this:

"Jesus Christ did not try to appropriate the power of the state to impose His views on everyone (as do today's right-wingers who profess to be His followers). Authoritarianism of any kind was never part of His message".

Well said Popogator. I hadn't heard it put that way before. Hard to contradict.


I really should own up to the fact that I didn't come up with that nice concise statement ~ I was paraphrasing (believe it or not) the Reverend Al Sharpton. Several weeks ago, he appeared on one of the Sunday morning poitical talk shows (Meet the Press? Face the Nation?) along with two right-wing ministers, Jerry Falwell and another gentleman, one of whom questioned whether Rev Al was "truly saved," whether he "truly knew Jesus." Al ~ not someone for whom I had had much regard previously ~ indignantly responded that he was saved, that he did know Jesus, but that the Jesus he knew...(see above quote).

I was absolutely floored. What a great statement ~ absolutely righteous and undeniable. The two rightwingers had nothing to say, and the network awkwardly went to a commercial.

Now, I realize that this does not counter every aspect of evangelical fundamentalism, some of which (I imagine) might not bother me at all. But it certainly speaks to the most obnoxious and intrusive traits of those who are so actively trying to beat the rest of us into submission to their beliefs.

By the way, I would be glad to get in on that lovefest with Jerry and Jim and all the rest, but I always tend to drop out of these religious discussions after jumping in early, because I become reluctant to go into detail about my own peculiar mixture of belief and disbelief, and also because someone else (e.g., Little Hawk) usually articulates a similar-enough position more enthusiastically than I ever would. But really, I want to get along with everyone of good will; don't misinterpret my in-and-out presence as a lack of interest!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: GUEST,sambo_88
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 12:05 AM

i think that what your saying has been be spoken in your point of view alot of people may disagree with what your saying or may not agree entirely but that's just my point of view some parts i believe you with but others i belive what the others have to say after all we are all different yet all equal


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 12:34 AM

Yeah, Poppa Gator. In one sense, I've reached the point where I don't give a dang whether people think I'm crazy or not, so I just say it the way I see it.

The only reason I hang back and don't bother sometimes is...I figure, oh, why not just let them be the way they choose...cos it's okay for them to be the way they are, and if I said something now it would just make them uncomfortable and accomplish nothing useful.

But if the subject really interests me, then I'll usually speak up.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 01:00 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM

Poppagator,

Funny how we hear what we want to hear (note I said "we")...

The Sunday morning talking heads show that you describe was Meet The Press, with Tim Russert. The panel was Al Sharpton and Jim Wallis representing the "religious left", and Jerry Falwell and Richard Land representing the "religious right".

As much as I resented (as I always do) the quick pick of Falwell and Land to suppose to represent my POV, I also supposed that the left probably felt the same about the choice of Sharpton.

I didn't perceive the exchange that you describe as a "gotcha moment" at all. It was as cliche'd as anything I'd ever heard from Sharpton in the past. And, quite the opposite, it was a moment when he "walked right into one" -- as Land was able to point out that his efforts in the civil rights movement would have never happened had Sharpton truly believed in a Jesus that taught him that he shouldn't be active in affecting governmental change.

The gotcha moment was when, as planned for the whole week -- with Wallis and Sharpton on Meet the Press, and Tony Campolo on This Week (with Stephanoplous) -- Wallis came out swinging with the planned -- "The religious right doesn't believe in the moral imperative to care for the poor" -- phrase...

...to which Land and Falwell easily pointed out that, to the contrary, both of their churches give millions in aid to the poor, fund low income housing in their communities, pay for health care for the poor, etc. And then Falwell asked Wallis and Sharpton, "so what do you two do for the poor?"...

....The deafeningly silent response was spared them only by a commercial break.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: GUEST,PoppaGator
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 02:12 PM

Touche, Jim.

I had not been watching the whole show, and never saw Rev. Wallis. (Perhaps he left early?) I was wondering why there were two ministers representing one "side" and only one on the other.

And you're right, I probably did exaggerate the reaction ~ what I wrote was probably a better description of my reaction.

That whole question is pretty complicated ~ when and whether it is appropriate for religious leaders and religious people to press their values in a political context. For those who believe that preemptive bombing, for example, or legal abortion, is out-and-out murder, opposition to public policy is not even an opiton, it's a duty.

(I continue to wonder why opponents of abortion so readily accept capital punishment and warfare-for-any-reason while the pacifist camp is OK with abortion, and why so many of us have allowed ourselves to be herded into one camp or the other.)

For what it's worth, I would have been disappointed with the choice of Rev. Al as representative of "my" side, but I was pleasantly surprised at his demeanor and performance.

Finally, in defense of Rev. Sharpton's interjection and my endorsement of it, I would strongtly argue that there is a world of difference between non-violent resistence and civil disobedience on the one hand (i.e., the political tactics of such "religious leftists" as Ghandi, Dr. King, the Berrigan brothers, etc.) and the more manipulative and surruptitious party-politics activities of Jerry Falwell and his ilk on the other. (Just my opinion, of course.) I certainly understand why a person of good faith would be disappointed at being "represented" by some of the most visible "Christian Right" personalities.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:17 PM

"Jesus Christ did not try to appropriate the power of the state to impose His views on everyone (as do today's right-wingers who profess to be His followers). Authoritarianism of any kind was never part of His message".

Well, PoppaGator (and others), whether Al Sharpton actually said that, or you thought he said that, or you were simply hallucinating, the fact remains that whoever came up with them, the words are true.

Let us not lose sight of that, as we quibble over who said what to whom.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM

Amen


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:00 PM

Well, we don't really mind when the "religious right" (or the "religious left", for that matter) use the power of the State to impose their views that people should not kill, rape, steal from, swindle, assault&pepper folks.

It's a democracy folks. We all get to have our say in it. That's kinda where I see the concept of "common sense" comes into play. It's the sense that we have, as humans, in common.

So, Bill D, and Don Firth, and Amos arrive at the conclusion, sans religious conviction, that we should not kill each other either, and in common, we vote -- not against one another, but with one another.

But people faction. They always have and they always will. If a group holds to an ideal that is too far from the mainstream of that "common sense", it is highly unlikely, as an ideal, to succeed in our system.

That's what the notion of "Liberal Arts" used to teach us. NOT that some factions should be disenfranchised by another -- but that all ideas, should they attempt to shape our public policy, had to pass muster with the general populace -- had to appeal to that "Common sense".


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:01 PM

.The deafeningly silent response I think the problem Jim Wallis anyway might have run into over that wouldn't have been the one you imply, Jim. Answering in the way that was invited wouldn't have been difficult - he cold have come out with a whole list of the good works he's given his whole life to - but answering that way would have been right out of line with how the Gospels tells Christians to act, when it comes to boasting about good works.

"I thank thee God that I am not like the rest of men...I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all I possess"...To which Jesus comments "Everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled."

I've somehow never been able to find the passage where Jesus ever says "Blessed are the rich." It must be there somewhere, I suppose...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:12 PM

"Common sense" at various times and various places has held that slavery is an excellent institution, that women are the possession of their husbands or fathers, that human sacrifice is an admirable thing, that torture by the authorities is acceptable, that it is right and neccessary to suppress heresy and kill heretics...

Or, for that matter, that there are no moral problems in widespread abortion.

And people who have opposed these things have been seen as holding to "an ideal that is too far from the mainstream".


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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:30 PM

Saw a billboard once that said "Nothing Is As Rare As Common Sense."

Jerry


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