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BS: Good News in Iraq

GUEST,guest from NW 26 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 05 - 06:10 PM
Amos 26 Jan 05 - 06:33 PM
Bill D 26 Jan 05 - 07:00 PM
GUEST,guest from NW 26 Jan 05 - 07:52 PM
akenaton 26 Jan 05 - 07:52 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 05 - 08:06 PM
akenaton 26 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM
mg 26 Jan 05 - 08:15 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 05 - 08:15 PM
akenaton 26 Jan 05 - 08:30 PM
Bobert 26 Jan 05 - 08:32 PM
Amos 26 Jan 05 - 08:40 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 05 - 08:59 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 26 Jan 05 - 09:18 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 05 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,guest from NW 27 Jan 05 - 12:28 AM
Peace 27 Jan 05 - 12:35 AM
Teresa 27 Jan 05 - 12:55 AM
dianavan 27 Jan 05 - 01:39 AM
GUEST,Amos 27 Jan 05 - 09:05 AM
GUEST 27 Jan 05 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 27 Jan 05 - 09:27 AM
George Papavgeris 27 Jan 05 - 03:15 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jan 05 - 03:57 PM
dianavan 27 Jan 05 - 11:21 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jan 05 - 11:24 PM
ard mhacha 28 Jan 05 - 06:50 AM
Amos 28 Jan 05 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,Larry K 28 Jan 05 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,heric 28 Jan 05 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Casual Observer 28 Jan 05 - 11:38 AM
Amos 28 Jan 05 - 11:41 AM
Little Hawk 28 Jan 05 - 11:42 AM
dianavan 28 Jan 05 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Frank 28 Jan 05 - 03:14 PM
dianavan 28 Jan 05 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,Com Seangan 28 Jan 05 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,guest from NW 28 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM
Little Hawk 28 Jan 05 - 06:00 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jan 05 - 11:15 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jan 05 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,heric 28 Jan 05 - 11:30 PM
Little Hawk 28 Jan 05 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,heric 28 Jan 05 - 11:53 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 12:02 AM
Nerd 29 Jan 05 - 12:08 AM
Peace 29 Jan 05 - 12:11 AM
Nerd 29 Jan 05 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,guest from NW 29 Jan 05 - 12:40 AM
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Subject: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM

over on another thread dougR told me that there is good news in iraq but that it is rarely reported. he seemed to have some knowledge of this good news so i asked him to come up with some links or sources to this reporting that he was so familiar with. guess what? never heard from him again! i invited any of the other bushbuddies who love to defend the iraq adventure to come up with some links or sources to the good news in iraq. guess what? no reply!
i thought maybe if i gave it its own thread then these folks could fill it up with all this news since it is so underreported and it might help some of the lefties here to get a broader perspective on the situation. well, here goes. how about it? doug, BB, larryK, anybody?

PS please remember we need links and sources and no "bloggers" with just opinions will count. latest news i heard about iraq was 36 marines dead today in a helicopter incident. not good news. c'mon guys, give us the good stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:10 PM

The good news is that the foreign occupying forces, like the German Wehrmacht in France 1940-44, have NOT succeeded in breaking the will of the Resistance fighters. Nor will they succeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:33 PM

Little Hawk:

I think you need to do some more research; these are not the Resistance Fighters you are looking for!!:D They're not rising up against an oppressive occupation as much as they are trying to preserve a privileged position in the government that has been taken away from them, rightly or wrongly. Or they're out-country hustlers working for Zarqawa. I seriously doubt there is much indigenous outrage of the kind that you attribute to "resistance" fighters.

I do not agree with the invasion that started this war, but there's no sense getting blinded by that sentiment.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:00 PM

I'm not sure how to respond to a request for 'good' news.....
"a Humvee was blown up, and ONE of the guys wasn't hurt"?

"A search has found two Iraqi families who have not lost any members in this war"?

"There are many, many still usable bricks in the rubble of some building."?

whoopee.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:52 PM

well, billD, dougR assured me there was a lot of good news that just wasn't reported on. i assume that's ascribed to the "liberal"slant of the media according to the bushbuddies. c'mon guys we're waiting!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:52 PM

There is no good news in Iraq, regardless of who wins ultimately.

The insurgents are fighting against Western "democracy" and the culture that is concealed by it.

The Shia clerics are mistaken in their belief that Islam has the strength amd flexibility to withstand the materialist onslaught,true Islam will be devoured and used in the same manner as true christianity has been in the West.

The Islamist fanatics realise that if Iraq falls to "democracy" and its attendant worthless culture, the whole of the middle East will follow.

As i said before this war started it is a fight to the death ...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:06 PM

Oh, I think you would find that there is tremendous resentment against the USA and British occupation of Iraq in the general population througout the Arab world, Amos, not just in Iraq. I think it is a sense of outrage that just festers, and it is due not just to this latest invasion in Iraq, or the Afghan action, but to decades of US policy that has always favoured Isreal and simultaneously propped up corrupt dictators like the Saudi Royal family, the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, and many others.

That sense of outrage will do much to keep resistance going on, as it did against the British when they occupied Iraq and neighboring areas in the 1920's. The British were finally driven out. They will be driven out again, along with the Americans. Count on it. But I don't think it'll happen too soon. It will be long, bloody, and drawn-out, as it was with the British, only worse.

I don't believe for a minute those people are fighting against democracy! They are fighting against foreign domination and everything that goes with it, and they have an absolute right to do that, just as did the Vietnamese.

To call what is being imposed on Iraq "democracy" is the sort of doublespeak that would have made Big Brother feel all warm and fuzzy inside. What a crock! It's the classic Big Lie.

Clearly, Amos, the former Sunni power structure is a key player in fomenting anti-occupation violence, but if they weren't there to do it, it would still happen anyway. The USA is seen without much illusions by ordinary people in the Middle East for just what it is...a self-interested, conquering empire with great ambitions and no real moral scruples whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

Little Hawk..The democracy that I refer to, is in inverted commas..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: mg
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:15 PM

what crap. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:15 PM

Oh, yeah, I know. Actually, I'm agreeing with you, but you just started me off on something... :-)

I have lately begun to regard the word "democracy" the way I would regard a really badly made counterfeit bill...it's amazing so many people still take it at face value!


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:30 PM

Martin better polish up his insults if he wants to hold on to his title.
Marys' commin up fast on the rails..

Hawk Iv wondered about that too.
Amazing how obvious it all is when you get your head on straight.
"All the lies and all the fools "


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:32 PM

Yeah, democracy, democracy and more friggin' democracy! I don't remember the Clinton folks doing this mantra crap on the population to push thru any of their ideas, But here we a re being bombarded with democracy, liberty freedom carp as if anyone in the Bush administartion could give a flyin' flip about any of those things.

We already know how they feel about democracy and free elections: those things are *other folks*. Heck, if they were so in love with free elections why did they hire thousands of lawyers to stop the Florida recount in 2000 and why did they contract out the 2004 election to a bunch of crook Repubs, like Diebold. So lets just take this free election completely off the table...

What does that leave?

Oh yeah. Liberty... Well, the Bushites have liberated over 100,000 innocent people from the list of the *living* so lets get that one off the table, too.

What's left? I'll tell ya waht's left...... Nuthin but a bunch of PR pablum, that's what...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:40 PM

O, Little Hawk, you want a chill pill tonight. Your description does NOT characterize the USA, as you know perfectly well, but only its current administration. And some others.

Not California, anyway.

Maybe we should do an end run and hook up the West Coast to Canada as an extra province. It will include Washington and Oregon, and therefore, most of Microsoft; on that basis we can probably buy enough politicians to make it stick. Ya think?? We could sweetent he deal by offering to call it...New Gateswick!!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:59 PM

Well, when I say "the USA" in terms of the World political situation, Amos, I am referring to its government, not private citizens like you. You don't make the policies. Your government does, after blathering on about liberty and freedom, which it has no intention of promoting anywhere.

The USA, to a man being run over by an Abrams tank, is a government that has issued orders and put armies into motion.

I never hated Germans because of Hitler, but I detest what the Nazis were as a regime. I like Germans.

"New Gateswick" sounds great to me. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:18 PM

But surely the US won't be stupid enough to settle for just any kind of democracy in Iraq? Surely it's got to be the right sort? Wasn't it Kissinger who explained (after the CIA had replaced the elected president of Chile with Pinochet) that if any other electorate was unwise enough to elect a pinko government, America reserved the right to blow it away?

I suppose the good news for the world at large is that the elections will be followed by enough civil unrest, or more probably civil war, to keep most US landforces capability tied up for many years to come, if the Bush cronies are to have any chance of keeping their grip on all that oil.

For the people of Iraq of course, it's an unmitigated tragedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:27 PM

Exactly, Peter. It isn't democracy the USA wants, it's a compliant puppet government that they want, with the superficial appearance of a democracy, if possible. They most certainly cannot afford REAL democracy in places like Iraq, if they want "business as usual". Nope. For business as usual they need totally subservient client states which are also police states.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:28 AM

cmon you guys, you're just going over all that negativity again! dougR assured me that there was a lot of good stuff going on! here's what he said...

"Oh Mighty and knowing friend from the great northwest: Have you heard nothing of the relief efforts, and the
improvements to the infrastructure that our troops have provided in Iraq? Probably not. Ti has only limited
reporting. The good news is hard to come by, and, when it is rarely reported, one has to be acceptable to the
reportage. IMO, you wouldn't accept anything other than a "discouraging word" about anything your country did if it jumped up and bit you in your ass."

see?! relief efforts, infrastructure improvement! surely there are some links to this good news! i'm starting to get a little worried tho. the bushbuddies don't seem to be too thrilled with this opportunity to fill up a thread with all the good stuff that would certainly shut down the whiners around here. could it be that they don't have any sources for this good news? or maybe too lazy to track them down? would rather just believe a talking head on fox that says everything is JUST FINE?

surely not. c'mon guys, let 'er rip!! it's GOOD NEWS TIME!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:35 AM

0.7742 - THEY'RE RIOTING IN AFRICA (THE MERRY MINUET)

It's in the Digitrad. Worth lookin' up. Not too much has changed, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Teresa
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:55 AM

I did a google search, but I can only find blogs.

Teresa


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:39 AM

If you are the mother of an American soldier in Iraq, no news is good news.

I think the Bushites are trying real hard to think of something to post to this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 09:05 AM

From The World Tribune of January 18th, a long spiel on the distortion of the media:

Media's coverage has distorted world's view of Iraqi reality
...

"Postscript: I have had my staff aggressively pursue media coverage for all sorts of events that tell the other side of the story only to have them turned down or ignored by the press in Baghdad. Strangely, I found it much easier to lure the Arab media to a "non-lethal" event than the western outlets. Open a renovated school or a youth center and I could always count on Al-Iraqia or even Al-Jazeera to show up, but no western media ever showed up ˆ ever. Now I did have a pretty dangerous sector, the Abu Ghuraib district that extends from western Baghdad to the outskirts of Fallujah (not including the prison), but it certainly wasn't as bad as Fallujah in November and there were reporters in there. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 09:15 AM

From the same "paper" front page today:

BAGHDAD — Iraq plans to invest $3.75 billion to construct and modernize oil refineries.

An Iraqi government plan urged the Oil Ministry to make the construction and modernization of refineries a priority in 2005. The plan said Iraq was not obtaining revenues from its refineries, estimated at $5.2 billion a year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 09:27 AM

Speaking about foreign occupation: The 'Resistance fighters' as Little Hawk terms them come not even all from Iraq. It is very far from my idea of 'Resistance' if an organisation led by a Saudi Arabian and its local branch led by a Jordanian tells an Iraqi they'll try to kill him if he opts to vote. It may not fit into an easy black and white picture, but the Shiites know why they want to vote and even to vote now and they are supported by most of their clerical leaders.

The Sunnites BTW also know why they don't want to vote, neither now nor any time later.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:15 PM

I have some good news.







.......




.......





Now, where did I put it....


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:57 PM

Wolfgang - So? People came from all over the western World to help fight Franco in the late 30's. Why would they not come from many Arab countries to help fight Bush and Blair in Iraq and Afghanistan, where the front line is? They have every reason to do so. This war is not just about Iraq.

And I think you will find that as in all wars, there are some bad behaviours and some bloodthirsty people on BOTH sides. But there is only one side that is presently practicing invasion of another people's land...and that is Mr Bush's side. That's why I oppose Mr Bush's war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 11:21 PM

The good news in Iraq is that the people of Iraq and Iran are re-claiming their common Persian identity and beginning to understand that fanatical Arabs and Americans do not have their best interests at heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 11:24 PM

That would indeed be good for Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 06:50 AM

Bush tells the New York Times that whoever wins the Iraq election will expect the US to leave, Bush thinks the troops will remain.
Hold on I will read that again, yes it`s as reported on todays BBC News, well he is a man of his word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 09:04 AM

I believe ancient Persia was centered in Iran, was it not?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:08 AM

In Iraq millions will go to the polls and elect their own government for the first time in their history.    This day will officially be known as "Black Sunday" to all liberals, terrorists, progressives, and Canadian pacifists.

Do any of you consider Germany a democracy?   It took 10 years of "US" occupation after WWII before Germany had free elections.   I think the results are a stable democracy today.    Iraq is years ahead of Germany in this regard.   Since Milosivic has been removed, has that country had an election?

The Sunnis have been the oppressed majority for many years.   Isn't that similar to the blacks in South Africa.   Wasn't it a good think to end that opression and let the majority rule.

Terrorists kill other Muslems, and attack in Russia, France, the Philliphines, and other non western countries.   Comparing the US troops in Iraq to the terrorists indicates spending too must time in cold weather and having frostbite of the brain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:20 AM

According to Trudy Rubin of the Philadelphia Inquirer, Shiites and Sunnis want the Americans out, but not as soon as the yanks would like to get out. She quotes one Ayad al-Sammerai, "deputy chairman of the biggest Sunni political grouping," as estimating "maybe three years."


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:38 AM

"PS please remember we need links and sources and no "bloggers" with just opinions will count."

Does that apply to Bobert too?


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:41 AM

Larry K:

Don't be a goddamned jerk. Why should any liberal object to self-detemrination?

You know not whereof you speak, and you do it poorly.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:42 AM

Yes...yes...it's VERY cold here, Larry K! :-) Terrible frostbite possibilities.

Germany had democratic elections BEFORE WWII also, and Hitler did better in them than any other candidate at the time. Democracy is not always the way you would like it to be, Larry, but I can assure you that those German elections in the early 30's were far realer as an exercise in democracy than this Iraqi one is going to be. They were not held at the point of a gun. They just eventually led TO the point of a gun, rather like Bush's election in the USA is doing, step by step.

I entirely agree with you that it is wrong for a Sunni minority to rule over a Shi'ite majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 02:00 PM

Yes, Amos, Iran is thought to be the center of Persian culture. However, Iraq and Afghanistan also have Persian majorities.

The Arabs do not want to see the development of an alliance between Persian people. The Arabs have dominated the region and created divisions. From a Persian point of view, Arab/U.S. interests are at the root of the problem.

Its really not Muslims against Christians or even Muslims against Jews. Its about control of the resources. Arabs (with U.S. help) have controlled the resources at the expense of the people for a very long time.

An oversimplification might be Sunnis=Arabs and Shiite=Persians.

The moderate Shiites will probably win the election. They will try to put on the face of democracy for awhile but many Persians believe that it will only be a matter of time before the Shiites return to their fundamentalist roots and then a theocracy.

The Arabs and U.S. fear the formation of the 'crescent' (Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan).

Its really not my area expertise but this is what I have figured out so far. I may be wrong.

If I'm right, Bush is playing right into the hands of Iran's effort to form a theocracy of Persian speaking people. They want Arabia and the U.S. out. Once the theocracy is established and the Persians united, it may be that a true democratic 'crescent' can emerge. No amount of U.S. interference will establish a democracy in Iraq. The Persians trust the religious leaders more than they trust the U.S. or Saudi Arabia. At this point they have a choice between the Devil and the the deep blue sea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 03:14 PM

The question remains: why are American troops there?

1. To establish fourteen military bases there.
2. To spend a billion on an American Embassy there.
3. To establish a springboard to invade Iran.
4. To destablize the Muslim communities there and offer Christianity to them.
5. To have American businesses get the contracts to rebuild Iraq.
6.   To impose a leader who will be indebted to the US government.
7. To get even for the failures of Vietnam.

It's not going to work. Americans are there for the wrong reasons.

There can be no freedom,democracy and security when a foreign power occupies a land through pre-emptive warfare and imposes an election on it.

Imagine what would happen if Main Street America were invaded premptively by a foreign power who wanted to spread their ideas of freedom and democracy? Then they would set up elections to put in power someone of their choosing?

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 03:21 PM

Thats why I think Canada should invade the U.S., Frank! :>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 04:09 PM

Frank I agree with some of the objectives you attribute to US for having troops in Iraq. But I don't think they are too keen to impose Christainity. The Christianity thing is something that has benefitted Bush in his own back garden. But I don't think Rumsfeld, Condy or the other hawks are one bit pushed baout Religion of any kind - as long as the American influence is dominant. Any kind of a local puppet who will play game will suit. That's the way it has been since the Shah and since that idiotic King Idris in Libya.

And while Ghaddafi may be a dictator, he has made some astute remarksks like his sum up of US Gulf engagement under Bush Senior :Do you seriously think that if Kuwait was producing carrots instead of oil that the America would be one bit interested in their "freedom" ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM

"Does that apply to Bobert too?"

yes the "rules" apply to all who post good news reports on iraq.

"In Iraq millions will go to the polls and elect their own government for the first time in their history."

this news has been reported quite frequently. i was hoping for some of the news dougR referred to that was so underreported. the stuff about infrastructure improvement, humanitarian work by our troops, etc. dougR doesn't seem to want to join in so i was hoping you, larryK, or beardedbruce or any other bushbuddies could pick up the slack and give us some real GOOD NEWS buttressed by links and sources we could check out. it's beginning to look to me like if it's not just repeating the talking points from rush, hannity, et al none of you guys really know how to look up a story and verify it with factual data. am i wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 06:00 PM

It is ALWAYS necessary to rebuild infrastructure and do humanitarian work after a devastating war...but more importantly...it's PROFITABLE to do so!!! Specially when your best buddies are the ones who get the rebuilding and humanitarian contracts. Oh yeah!

It's American Big Business that wanted this war, American Big Business that financed it, and American Big Business that is profiteering off the reconstruction...as always. This is an old, old game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:15 PM

Larry K--

Before you favor us with any more of your facile and specious historical comparisons (e.g. Germany and Iraq), you might actually want to read some history. Believe it or not, Fox News is not the last word on historical analysis.

Of course, I know this might be an unreasonable request for a Bushite. After all, your mighty leader never checks facts--seems actually to have a disdain for them--so why should you be any different? If a book is too daunting a prospect, I refer you to the Wall St. Journal (that leftist rag) of 24 January 2005. Mark Helprin, a conservative columnist, advisor in Dole's 1996 campaign, in a column, deals exactly with the comparison of Germany 1945 and Iraq now, and comes to a conclusion diametrically opposed to yours--i.e. that there is virtually no parallel.

What West Germany did in 1955 has absolutely no bearing on the current Iraq situation. Even after 10 years of US occupation in Iraq (assuming the Iraqis would tolerate that---not a good bet)--Iraq would still not be in a comparable position to West Germany in 1955.

As Little Hawk has pointed out, Germany had elections before 1945. The election of 1932 certainly was not a sterling example of democracy. Before that, however, there were also elections--ever heard of the Weimar Republic?   Furthermore, Germany had and has a large class of highly educated people--indeed in the 19th century German culture was considered at the very top. German science, philosophy, music (perhaps you've heard of Beethoven and Brahms?) were all highly respected. Literacy then (and now) was probably higher than in the US. That is what made Hitler so unthinkable to so many educated people all over the world--they couldn't believe such a thing could happen in Germany. Many saw him as a buffoon until it was far too late.

After World War II the Western occupying powers, while not agreeing among themselves on every point, agreed West Germany was to be enlisted in the struggle against an expansionist Russia. They also agreed Germany should virtually start its history over--the official term was "Das Jahr Null" (Year Zero). Democratic principles and Western popular (read US) culture were introduced into very fertile soil for both.

In Germany in 1945, the cities were to a large extent destroyed, the Germans were disarmed, and there were no groups of sympathizers outside the country ready to help Nazi Germany rise again. None of that is true in Iraq, though Bush's wonderful diplomatic skills have resulted in devastation of some cities.

A little more care before posting nonsense would be appreciated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:29 PM

Yes I am aware that the image of the "bloodthirsty Hun" from World War I propaganda also existed before Hitler. But I still contend that in Germany in 1945 there was a virtually universal desire for a fresh start.

Not exactly the case in Iraq today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:30 PM

so. umm. did it take ten years of "US" occupation before West Germany had free elections? don't get me wrong - all of that was really interesting, but..., I mean, taking the piss out of a guy for not saying everything you just read from Helprin seems a little harsh, especially if what he said was right in and of itself, despite contrary interpretations of its meaning or significance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:49 PM

Ah, well, we all tend to get carried away now and then in the heat of debate, don't we?

I thought the comparison of Iraq to Germany was ludicrous too. I mean, really ludicrous.

You know, a conquering force can arrange an election, strictly for show, any time it wants to in an occupied country. You just import some paid expatriate stooges, recruit some more local stooges, encourage the hopes of the general public and encourage various naive or hopeful lesser parties to run for office, and you hold your stupid election. Whoopee doo! It doesn't mean diddly until one thing happens...until the occupying forces of the invaders LEAVE! I'm telling you, the Germans could have held elections in occupied France, Belgium, Holland, or anywhere else they wanted to and found local French, Belgians, and Dutch to run in those elections....while savagely fighting the resistance in the shadows at the same time...and it wouldn't have meant diddly...because the German Army would have been right there controlling the whole show both before and after the election.

The Germans didn't bother to do it, because their popular culture didn't need the charade of such an exercise to justify what they were doing abroad to the Germans at home. That's the only real difference.

American culture desperately needs the fig leaf of a supposedly "democratic election" in Iraq to cover its naked aggression with, and to convince Joe Sixpack back home that the USA really went to Iraq to free the Iraqi people! Nothing could be farther from the truth than that proposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:53 PM

Well, if that's true in this instance (and it my well be), how bloody useless can the United Nations really be, then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:02 AM

The United Nations is a toothless tiger...or a tuskless elephant. Now and then the Great Powers use it as their surrogate when they want to go and smash up some place...and then THEY are the teeth and tusks. That's about all it amounts to. When they don't need the U.N. they laugh at it. When they need it to provide an air of legitimacy to some military action, they make grand speeches and give the toothless tiger a nice bowl of milk.

This last war was so incredibly illegitimate that the toothless tiger could not quite bring itself to swallow the bowl of tainted milk it was offered...


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:08 AM

Dianavan is wrong on this one. The ethnic majority in Iraq--about 80%--is Arabs.

The religious majority is Shi'ite, which has roots in Persian forms of Islam, but only a tiny minority of Iraqi Shi'ites are ethnic Persians. Essentially, Persian religious teachers came to Iraq in some numbers before and during the Ottoman period and converted much of Iraq to Shi'a. A few of them remain, but many were later expelled. The Sunni minority, including Saddam's party, were extremely hostile to Persians as a group and got rid of as many as they could.

The second largest group in Iraq are Sunni Arabs.

The third largest is Kurds, most of whom are Sunni as well.

Then come tiny minorities like Assyrians (Christian), Jews, ethnic Persians, etc.

From USA Today 1/4/2005: "Iraq is estimated to be about 35% Sunni, including Arabs and Kurds, and about 60% Shiite Arabs."

That don't leave much room for Persians, dianavan!

Afghanistan is, as dianavan points out, largely Persian ethnically speaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:11 AM

The Nerd is back. Great to see you.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:17 AM

Yes, and being my annoying self too :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Good News in Iraq
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:40 AM

you bushbuddies are a frustrating lot. give you a thread, plead with you to fill it up with the good news about iraq that's been hiding and what happens? nothing! dougR, the original guy that seductively mentioned this secret news, can't even be bothered with an appearence to remind us that "progress" is being made and people are "working hard" and it's certainly "hard work" to make all this "progress". i guess my request for the links and sources put him off. larryK at least shows up but only reports that an election is going to occur, an extremely common news story, and then spouts some uncorroborated history. no sources, no links.damn.

what does it take? pretty please, o wise and knowledgable bushbuddies, isn't there ANY good news in iraq that has a link or a source? i'm just about willing to accept fox news if you'd at least link us up to something that resembles a factual account. (oh, and forget that one about the woman who was raped and cited in wolfowitz' testimony. that's been shown untrue. and no jessica lynch. and i don't believe they found ANY of those pesky WMDs that were such an imminant threat. oh, i forgot, nobody ever used the word imminant, just some claptrap about being able to hit us in 45 minutes...)


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