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Obit - Folk music and its relevance

GUEST,David Edwards 01 Dec 04 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 30 Nov 04 - 04:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Nov 04 - 02:33 PM
Gervase 30 Nov 04 - 01:50 PM
Hand-Pulled Boy 30 Nov 04 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Jim 30 Nov 04 - 10:10 AM
Hand-Pulled Boy 30 Nov 04 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Jim 30 Nov 04 - 08:59 AM
PennyBlack 30 Nov 04 - 05:33 AM
Malcolm Douglas 29 Nov 04 - 07:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Nov 04 - 07:22 PM
Nemesis 29 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Nov 04 - 05:50 PM
John Routledge 29 Nov 04 - 05:45 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Nov 04 - 05:09 PM
shepherdlass 29 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM
BB 29 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM
Linael 29 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Nov 04 - 01:51 PM
Grab 29 Nov 04 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Jim 29 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 29 Nov 04 - 11:30 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 29 Nov 04 - 09:09 AM
Fibula Mattock 29 Nov 04 - 09:03 AM
VIN 29 Nov 04 - 08:33 AM
shepherdlass 29 Nov 04 - 08:19 AM
Paco Rabanne 29 Nov 04 - 06:39 AM
Paco Rabanne 29 Nov 04 - 06:38 AM
shepherdlass 29 Nov 04 - 06:37 AM
Hand-Pulled Boy 29 Nov 04 - 06:31 AM
George Papavgeris 28 Nov 04 - 08:58 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Nov 04 - 04:34 PM
English Jon 28 Nov 04 - 03:43 PM
chris nightbird childs 28 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 28 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Nov 04 - 12:51 PM
John C. 28 Nov 04 - 11:36 AM
Megan L 28 Nov 04 - 11:04 AM
Nemesis 28 Nov 04 - 10:36 AM
Hand-Pulled Boy 28 Nov 04 - 09:36 AM
John C. 28 Nov 04 - 08:13 AM
PennyBlack 28 Nov 04 - 05:39 AM
DonMeixner 28 Nov 04 - 01:26 AM
PoppaGator 28 Nov 04 - 12:49 AM
Malcolm Douglas 28 Nov 04 - 12:03 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 Nov 04 - 11:27 PM
Once Famous 27 Nov 04 - 10:27 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Nov 04 - 10:06 PM
cobber 27 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM
John Routledge 27 Nov 04 - 07:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,David Edwards
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 05:41 AM

I have a vision of the Copper family dressed in bondage gear with safty pins stuck throught their ears, pogoing to Shepherds arise...


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:02 PM

And the late Alex Campbell was a grand example of one who was able to do this!!

In workshops I used to do I tried to show teachers how they could make folksongs relavant for their nstudents. It meant a bit of work for them. They needed to search for songs that illustrated the historical era, the geographic region, the piece of art, or the work of literature they strove to make into an illustrative tool for those parts of the curriculum. The words to the song, even more than the tune, showed life in those other eras in the words of people who had lived through that. Singing a given folksong for or with the students was, as I'm fond of saying, a time machine of sorts that could truly transport and enlighten.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 02:33 PM

I don't think there've been many people on the thread who'd disagree with Gervase there. And I can't remember ever being in a folk cklub ir session where that wasn't more or less the way things worked.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 01:50 PM

Funny how things come around. I was reminded of a wonderful essay by Mike of Northumbria while reading this thread. A link to England, Whose England can be found in in this thread from four years back.
But enough of looking back...
For folk music to become 'relevant' to people other than us, it ought at least to be done well - not necessarily musically well, but well enough to grab an audience by the ears and make the hairs on the back of their neck stand up. Like good punk does. One of the reasons I love punk is because of the sheer energy and emotion that the best stuff conveys.
If it's an open-mike evening, what's wrong with a a punk take on folk. It doesn't seem to have done Chumbawunba, the Pogues or even the Oysterband any harm. Or are we so insecure as folkies that we we still have to shout out 'Judas' when something doesn't conform to our tidy notion of what folk should be?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:13 PM

eggsthalent!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:10 AM

Bring them all HPB - and sample our hand-pulled ales too - looking forward to your music & good company!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 09:08 AM

Are you talking about folk clubs or acoustic open events? A lot of Hull people can't spell traditional (or anything for that matter!), so there's no notice on any door. Vagrants often walk in and then reveal themselves as musicians. Often a pleasant surprise. Now I'm contradicting myself Jim as you've realised. Sheffield sounds really nice, can I bring some of my friends?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 08:59 AM

'Most folk clubs are keen to label their door as traditional.'

This certainly isn't true of folk clubs in Sheffield/Sth Yorkshire (though there are several where traditional is the norm) - and in my experience "anything goes" gets a warm reception, as do young performers (bring them in - we certainly need them to create a better balance). Maybe it's one reason why clubs in this area continue to thrive - long may it continue.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: PennyBlack
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:33 AM

"There will always be people who assume on a knee-jerk basis that anybody who complains about something must have genuine grounds for complaint, but that's really quite a dangerous assumption"

- I think the only way to respond is to presume the comments made were factual (innocent till proven guilty) and then judge comments on the stated fact, all in all anything said here will make no real changes to what happens and we're not a jury.

With lack of response from all parties involve only passing comments or rebuffing the original thread starter.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:44 PM

I mentioned teenagers only as an illustration (mainly because it is in relation to them that older music pundits speak fatuously of "making folk music relevant": I do realise that many have genuinely individual ideas of their own; presumably in about the same proportion as the rest of the community). It's a pity, with hindsight, that I did so; it has given some people the opportunity to narrow the discussion, to avoid addressing important issues, or to indulge personal prejudices. Never mind. Few of us can anticipate the way these kinds of discussion may develop.

We know very little about the person who originally started the thread; I doubt if he or she is particularly young, as it happens. The tone is petulant and no useful information is given. There will always be people who assume on a knee-jerk basis that anybody who complains about something must have genuine grounds for complaint, but that's really quite a dangerous assumption.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:22 PM

Teenagers are the future, but then so are people in their twenties, and their thirties, and their cradles for that matter.

The point is, there are people who can resist that kind of manipulation, and such people are no rarer among teenagers than any other age range - and they are the people who make it a future worth listening to. (Whatever kind of music they make.)


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Nemesis
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

Apologies, somewhat belated response to John C:

You correctly discerned the point of my post - this is a thread about the future, or not, of folk music. The input of teenagers therefore is relevant. They are the future.

To banish them all to "their bedrooms to do homework" is as a curmudgeonly a response to youth's contribution and input to music as the earlier thread that decries them thus: "Teenagers ... are encouraged to believe that only their (manipulated) tastes are "relevant"; they are an impressionable and economically active market (though it is usually Mummy or Daddy's money) and, frankly, a soft touch."

Some of them are in their bedrooms doing their music homework - it does still exist on the curriculum, at least in some schools!

Shirley Collins 4 Uber Cool Teens


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:50 PM

I thought the general response to GUEST,Danger danger was polite enough, guve or take (the odd bods who specialise in being rude to just about everyone).


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: John Routledge
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:45 PM

Yes Shepherdlass it is indeed sad when any young musician is discouraged from performing. They are the future.

The young musicians at Folkworks Summer School spend much time adapting tunes and writing their own songs and tunes some of which will no doubt pass into the Tradition along with some of the tunes written by their tutors which are now already almost fully absorbed.
They don't seem to have the hangups that many older folkies have for which we should be grateful:0)

I spend a lot of time with music and song because I enjoy it in its many guises. All I ask of others is to have a couple of hours every other week where I can sing/listen to songs sung in a way that I enjoy. When in other venues I respect what the people there are doing and will sing or play if appropriate. What does appropriate mean? :0)


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:09 PM

This looks to me like yet another banana our collective intellects have failed to straighten.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: shepherdlass
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

McGrath of Harlow: Yes - they'd have put an effort into learning the dances which were available at the time, and they'd have valued the skills of the older generation. I'm sure many kids who want to play punk songs now are not so presumptious as to assume that 3 chords is all you need (Joe Strummer - to name one senior member of that tradition - put paid to that idea yonks ago). There are a lot of lessons in history to which we can defer - the worrying thing is when only one is seen as exclusively on the side of the good. Also, it seems clear that in previous centuries, the older generation of musicians adapted at least a few songs of the day - otherwise, the tradition would have stagnated before the Normans landed.   

I'm not attacking the older generation (I'm over 40 anyway) or the folk community - I've seen intolerance from purists of the folk AND punk (and jazz, and hip-hop, and reggae, and classical .....) stamp. It worries me, though, that a young musician who felt rejected after an open mic session is assumed by so many (who, like me, weren't there) to be an arrogant young whippersnapper. My comments were rooted in playing devil's advocate - and asking if there's room for open-mindedness on both sides.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: BB
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM

Hand-Pulled Boy said, 'Most folk clubs are keen to label their door as traditional.' Having contacted most folk clubs in the UK in search of bookings, or not done so if it was blindingly obvious that they weren't interested in 'traditional', I would dispute that statement, even to the extent of saying that most don't label themselves as traditional, or are blatantly *not* traditional. From my point of view, would that more didn't label themselves!

Now I don't have a problem with those that are not purely traditional - in fact, I prefer a wide range of music that comes under a vague heading of 'folk' to be presented in the clubs, in spite of the fact that most of what we do is 'traditional' or in that style. I think 'traditional' would be a lot more acceptable to many more people if there was more of an 'anything goes' policy in more clubs - where anything under that umbrella was welcomed and appreciated, where there is a wide range of guests from the traditional source singers to the young singer-songwriters to the 'entertainers' and all shades in between, and all equally appreciated for being good at what they do. That was the climate that I grew up in in the folk scene of the '60s and early '70s in England and my feeling is that the scene was better for it. Maybe I was lucky in the clubs that I came into contact with then, but I do yearn for that eclecticism now, and do try to provide it in the monthly club/session that I help to organise.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Linael
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM

I have thought about this before (Ignoring it is like sticking ones head in the sand) and I have come to two conclusions that make me feel comfortable in learning and singing 100-400 year old songs:

1. Many of the Traditional songs that we still have today were recorded in the early 1900's - which means that people were singing them (relevant or not) from when they were originally composed right up until... the early 1900's. Who are we to say that these songs aren't good enough for our sophisticated palates?

2. Relevance is a tricky thing to apply to folk, not because folk is irrelevent but because, traditionally speaking, folk songs are typically not political, not protest, and not satirical (Ok, there are exceptions to the rule) and therefore have NEVER been relevant to anything but entertainment.

Political/Protest songs are great in a homogenous group of people but in a room full of typical folkies (politically diverse, to say the least) they run the risk of offending people - and offended people don't sing much.

Thanks for listening

Linael


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 01:51 PM

Did the village kids of a century ago who used to do traditional dances to traditional tunes put an effort into learning to enjoy their heritage?

They would certainly have put an effort into learning how to do those dances, which isn't that easy. And play the tunes too, if that was what they were into - and that always requirees a lot of effort. And I would think it rather unlikely that they would start off from the assumption that the only music worth listening to was from people their own age, and that there is an unbridgeable gap between their music and the music of their parents' generation. More likely their attitude would have been that they could do that stuff better, because tney had more strength and vigour.

Which is in fact how it tends to work within the folk community these days, more especially at festivals.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Grab
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 01:33 PM

This guest has probably upped and run away after throwing his vitriol grenade in the door. But in case he is still around - Danger Danger, what were the songs you got chucked out for?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

"Obit-Folk music and its relevance"

Folk music died!!!! - I'm a ghost!!!!.........living in a ghost town........everywhere I go other ghosts are singing folk songs..............and there's so many of them..........or maybe it's just a dream..........

Danger, danger - I might wake up and find myself in the other place


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 11:30 AM

Jerry is correct!!

As Utah Phillips is fond of saying, THE PAST DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE.

Yes, it's still here---now. But we live in a time that ignores the past and bulls foreward ignoring the real virtues of history and past lessons. Those of us who came through the years valuing the values of the past know the worth of tradition and the tales (some with good tunes) found therein. For me, at least, the music has never ever been more relevant! And it will always be so.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:09 AM

Relevant, Schmelevant! How pretentious to even ask the question, Guest!

I jazz "relevant?" Or pop music? Relevant to what? What does that even mean? Do you mean, do people want to listen to what you think is "folk?" And if they don't, you've proved your point?

Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wot a stupid conversation....

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:03 AM

Lovely point made way up there by smiler:
How can a tradition evolve, if people are clinging in the past, to an ideal that probably never existed in the first place?

Just what are peoples' attitude to traditional music? Do they want to freeze it in time, preserve it and keep it unchanging? It probably went through various versions before the version we have now. Or do people want it to grow and evolve, and reflect contemporary issues?

There's a thread in the BS section at the moment about petitions against building a motorway past the Hill of Tara in Ireland. This is a decent anaology. Most people are understandably upset at the idea of destroying a very rich archaeological landscape. But how far do we go to try and preserve things, be it song or stone? I'm not saying a motorway is necessarily a great need right there in the landscape, but, if it was, then should we be halting development relevant to us today just because it messes with what we have defined as "our past"? The twentieth century is "our past" too, just as much (if not more) than the centuries before. Is it wise to freeze things? Should we be changing and evolving to suit our current needs? I'm not advocating a set path, just trying to discover why people are so set on labelling something "old", putting it on a shelf and treating it reverently when it was actually made to be used, and to be relevant. There's a tendancy to hark back to a "traditional" past, some arcadian setting of all things we view as exemplifying folk, and yet   no one seems to be able to say when that actually was...

I like shepherdlass' point:
Did the village kids of a century ago who used to do traditional dances to traditional tunes put an effort into learning to enjoy their heritage? Or did they do it because it was fun, because that's what all the other kids in the village did, because that's what was around them and produced by "the folk"? I know which answer my money's on, and it doesn't involve regular attendance at workshops.
I grew up listening to Irish music, so it's very relevant to me, and I like the new twist and turns it has taken over time. My friends didn't grow up with it. "Their" music is rock, or pop, or the ubiquitous "Country and Irish"/"Culchie and Western". Why the hell should I throw my hands up in despair and tell them that actually "their" music is traditional (folk) music. It's clearly not, if they don't identify with it.

p.s. I like punk

p.p.s. I hate overusing quotation marks, but it had to be done


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: VIN
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 08:33 AM

I agree with you jaqui.c and others who believe that if you go to a gig expecting a certain style/genre, whatever, of music/dance/song,then that's what you should get ('specially if you've paid). I sometimes attend classical concerts and love traditional and contempory music but whilst i would'nt mind hearing a Fairport song during the interval of a Mahler or Beethovan Janacek evening (i'm weird that way) i think the sex pistols or a bit of 'rap' music would definately un-nerve me a bit and stretch my tolerance level a bit too much. If i attend a poetry evening, i expect to hear poetry.

I would'nt expect or want to attend a morris dance session only to find it taken over by ballroom dancers (no offence to B/D's intended).


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: shepherdlass
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 08:19 AM

PS - John Routledge

You state thtat effort needs to be put into enjoying certain forms of music and young people should realize this????

Did the village kids of a century ago who used to do traditional dances to traditional tunes put an effort into learning to enjoy their heritage? Or did they do it because it was fun, because that's what all the other kids in the village did, because that's what was around them and produced by "the folk"? I know which answer my money's on, and it doesn't involve regular attendance at workshops.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:39 AM

100. I thank you.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:38 AM

99


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: shepherdlass
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:37 AM

Since Chumbawamba brought out their unfeasibly good versions of English traditional protest songs, some in the folk establishment began to book them and to review their subsequent work (even though it is not of a traditional bent). Does the fact that a punk-ish co-operative brilliantly recorded some traditional songs render them a more appropriate club guest than a folk-ish performer who does the odd punk song? Does it matter? Is there room for music in the search for authenticity? Isn't there a danger of selecting the tradition in the same way as the collectors who edited out the music hall repertoire of source singers? Discuss.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:31 AM

English Jon has a good point about R&B being a joke. I remember when R&B was early Rolling Stones rythm and blues which many people enjoyed for whatever reason. So why has modern youth 'stolen' the term to describe this new crap? Can the content of a pidgeon hole be totally changed in this way? Is this happening to folk music? No, because most folk clubs are keen to label their door as traditional, whether it be a sing-a-round or a play-a-round.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:58 PM

Much has been said in this thread that I agree with - even Martin G makes some very good points before he starts on his aphorisms about punk. But even so, even the best of the participants fall occasionally into pigeon-holing traps.

If you look at the next singer about to get up and sing and you are put off by his piercings, black leather gear, chains and "Polizei" sign on his jacket, you might in fact be pre-judging an Ian Bruce (and nobody can call Ian's material "punk").

And if you like Robb Johnson's stuff (beware: you may like it without knowing it is his), you'll find somewhere in there punk influences from his previous life; and some of the songs in his albums "Margaret Thatcher/Tony Blair - my part in her/his downfall" are pure "punk" in style and inspiration. And with Robb, it sits quite comfortably as a mysical style next to chanson, music hall etc.

As for traditional folk clubs having closed minds: Herga is the longest running single venue club in England, considered in the past as a sort of "Mecca" of traditional song, and still with a heavy enough emphasis on traditional material. Yet they have nurtured and helped me in my own fledgeling songwriting efforts, despite being in a minority of one, ethnically speaking, and even embrace my occasional forays into more ethnic-oriented material. And along with me, other songwriters too have found open hearts and minds and ears at Herga: Les Sullivan, Mike Sparks, our own Hovering Bob... There goes another preconception.

And that word, "relevance" is another trap. Malcolm and Martin said it very well already, but just to add my perspective: Relevance is an ingredient in the soup, but by no means the only one to judge the meal by. Also, relevance is very much in the eye of the beholder. A song about 9-to-5 office life with its dehumanising effects often seems relevant to a 30- or 40- or 50-year old, but unsurprisingly not to a teenager or to a 70-year old. But a song about losing your Granny and missing her at Christmas time can have cynical teenagers crying alongside their parents. A song about the first world war may leave a teenager cold - but a song about visiting a WWI cemetery and relating the feelings arising from such a visit often grips them (I have my own two kids as examples).

In my book, if there is a danger to folk, it will be from closed minds who use pigeon-holing as an alternative to rational thinking. Thankfully, I see comparatively few signs of that around me. Perhaps I'm lucky living where I live and knowing the folks I know, but I don't think this is the case.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 04:34 PM

Perhaps it distance which lends enchantment. But the Irish and the Americans just seem to do the whole thing kind of seamlessly. There is this thing in one of Woody Guthrie's books where he says if the average soda jerk heard one of my records, he would probably think that the radio was bust- or something very similar.

In other words he was making this music complete ethnicity, despite it was the era of Glen Miller. And yet the Weavers were having hits not long after with his writing. When our best revivalist singers have finished with a piece of work, it is still in a state inaccessible to the public ear.

I suppose it must be me seeing things wrong. As I seem to be the only one banging on about this.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: English Jon
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 03:43 PM

Punk is jolly good. so is traditional english folksong. Sometimes they can overlap. but not always.

Thank god neither of them sound anything like r'n'b though. That really is a bag of shite.

EJ

observer, I'd be interested to know how English traditional song stems from african influences....


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM

It's not gone, it's just sleeping...


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

I am now no longer resentful, i am incandescent with rage...


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:51 PM

"Spain, Greece, Cuba, Turkey"

That sounds fairly "musically eclectic" to me, and quite right.

The general picture in most fields of endeavour is that you start doing things when you are young, and as you keep on at them you get better, and your best work is produced quite some way on from your first flush of youth. That definitely applies with folk music, and it also applies to most other types of music. (Including the music of those punks who have kept at it.)


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: John C.
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:36 AM

I can't help wondering what the message from 'Nemesis' above is supposed to prove. I presume that we are meant to conclude that teenagers have eclectic tastes in music (God help us!). Well, Nemesis, as an adult in my 50s, I don't give a toss about the musical tastes of teenagers - teenagers should be in their rooms doing their homework! Sometimes I think that we live in some crazy dystopia in which everything revolves around the likes, dislikes and whims of adolescents.
If you listen to the musics of other countries (Spain, Greece, Cuba, Turkey etc., etc.) you realise that those countries, and their musicians, produce music for adults, not kids. Music produced by and for adults gives something for younger people to aspire to. Music used to be like that here once - until we caught the rock plague and everything turned to mush.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:04 AM

Club - A group of people organized for a COMMON purpose, especially a group that meets regularly.

Aw they didny like you so what its their club it sounds like nothing more than sour grapes.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Nemesis
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 10:36 AM

Slight thread drift .. a friend was just looking on the Internet for commercial (as opposed to domestic) plumbing supplies .. tapped in Armitage Shanks - being the best known name for sanitaryware in the UK .. got up umpteen pages of suppliers of Armitage Shanks sanitaryware

and a punk band in Kent(?) called "Armitage Shanks", last CD: "Urinal Heep"

And here's a snapshot of the tastes of impressionable and manipulated teenagers ie., the hoards of 15 year old gothy-things who come round to visit our teenage gothy thing:

Slipknot ("listen to the foot drumming" - see Volees des Castors (below)
Rammstein - German Ring cycle opera recently composed on their themes
Nirvana (+ Cobain's acoustic versions of old Blues)
S.O.A.D.
Mozart
Beethoven
Tchaikosvsky
Paul Downes
Joe Satriani
Jimi Hendrix
Jeff Beck
Led Zeppelin
Les Volees des Castors
Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain
Blind Boys of Alabama
R L Burnside
Chumbawumba - "English Rebel Songs"
Dandy Warhols
Mary Flowers - Delta Blues
Ben Waters - Boogie Woogie piano
Jeff Buckley
Antonio Forcione - Latin Jazz guitarist
John Lee Hooker, Howling Wolf et al
Carnival Collective - UK's largest(?)Samba-percussion and Brass ensemble
The Clash
(and live folk music .. the stuff delivered with a bit of passion and verve)

Well, (tongue in cheek)thank god it's not "Mummy's money"!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:36 AM

So, we're all agreed that it's a question of style and attitude in how the song is presented. Folk music grew as a median for telling news and stories before radio and TV. All topics have been covered from politics to sex and violence. Modern songs cover these age old topics but, of course, in a modern style. If it's not 'gentle enough' for some 'nicey nicey folks' then try it where it might be better appreciated by more open minded people. I love to hear songs about heroes and anti-heros such as Charlton Heston and the East Riding Yorkshire Ripper performed so evocatively by Hull's 'Crack Town' (Hi Ratty and Foxy!). It might not be traditional but it's certainly Folk Music.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: John C.
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:13 AM

Oh dear, that old slur about 'folk police' again! I've been interested in trad. song for 37 years now and I've never known anyone who has been 'banned'from a folk club for inappropriate repertoire; I've heard a few rumours, though, of people being banned for inappropriate behaviour!
Personally, if I was a club organiser (which I'm not), I would be very loathe to ban anyone (I'm far too polite/well brung up/cowardly(?)for that!) - but having said that I wouldn't necessarily condemn anyone who did ban someone for inappropriate repertoire. In my youth the greatest virtue that one could display appeared to be something called 'musical eclecticism' (=broad tastes in music) but I noticed that many of those who declared themselves as being 'musically eclectic' had a tendency to sing anything but folk song in a folk club - and this really pissed me off - to the extent that I began to question whether 'musical eclecticism' was a good thing or not. I now think that it is not good at all - especially in the context of folk clubs. I would like to proudly declare that I am extremely prejudiced when it comes to music: I hate all forms of modern, commercial, popular music with a passionate loathing ('post music noise' as the American writer, Harlan Ellison, so aptly describes it) and I am equally passionately in favour of traditional song. Obviously, this attitude puts me in a very small minority - but I don't care! Nevertheless, I am not a policeman - I would never tell anyone what they should or shouldn't sing - but if you come to any of the clubs that I belong to and want to perform punk/thrash metal/hip hop/plip plop/ folk fusions (or something) just don't expect me to be enthusiastic about it!!!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: PennyBlack
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 05:39 AM

It's getting like a gathering of the "Folk Police".

"We won't allow this or that to be played in our Club" etc.

It was an open mic session I thought that meant it was open to everyone?

Will these restrictive practises end up with a list of acceptable songs being passed to "performers" telling what and how songs must be sung at these locations? I for one hope not, I love to hear something new at a sessions (don't always like it, but that doesn't make it good, bad or unacceptable)

Tradition doesn't stop here.

PB


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: DonMeixner
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 01:26 AM

McGrath,

Yes to both and no to both.

My comment is about the snobbery of anyone who views their particular music or interest to be the only music or interest of value. This can mean performers or venue operators.

Don


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:49 AM

cobber --

You're a lagerphonist?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:03 AM

I don't think it's necessary to debate the relative merits or otherwise of different styles of music; or the relative intelligence of contributors to the discussion, anonymous or not. Put simply, context is everything. I gather that the Sun session at Beverley is a general acoustic event (as opposed to an amplified "open mic") with the accent on the more traditional styles: not a folk club; or, for that matter, a "new" music session.

It may well be that whoever started this thread was disappointed to find that whatever it was he or she played was not well received, but he or she won't have been banned from the pub for poor taste or for having the "wrong" views. Perhaps for bad behaviour, mind; and certainly the arrogant tone of his or her post, and the sad ignorance displayed in it, suggests something of the kind. This sort of thing comes up here, and on the newsgroups, from time to time. Usually it's no more than a case of wounded pride and a dose of overweaning self-importance.

Why be defensive? "Folk music" audiences are, on the whole, more tolerant of other musical forms than most equivalent groupings. There are any number of styles involved; some of which will not appeal to listeners who, like "Weelittledrummer"'s parents (or mine, come to that; though mine have acquired a bit of a taste for the instrumental music), were brought up on very different genres. If I played a straight set of polkas at dancing tempo in a punk club, I probably wouldn't get a very positive reaction. That wouldn't mean that punk was no longer "relevant"; though it is a little old-fashioned nowadays. It would mean that I was doing something in the wrong place for it.

Simple, really.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:27 PM

what you again..

twat !!!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:27 PM

Guest, Observer

Guess I got to you but good.

FINE!

I'm not checking out anytime soon, and just maybe I'll continue to promote my philosophy about what made you stain your shorts.

In fact, you can count on it!

Deal with it. Punk sucks. In my NOT so humble opinion.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:06 PM

no it was great cobber. None of us have been doing exactly the same thing - but in our ways we have all carried on the tradition as much as anybody. and all our experiences are quite as important and in their way illuminating.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: cobber
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

I'm coming in late on this one but some of those who started the thrtead may live long enough to see the end of it. When I played in Cobbers, we tried not to get labelled as a folk band, bush band or any other type if we could. That's not to say that we didn't love our folk music, particularly the Australian stuff, but we didn't want to get tied down by prejudices that were around then over what was folk music and what wasn't. Basically, we wanted to entertain people and have fun. I'm talking 1968 on here but the attitude lasted thirty years. I was introduced to "folk music" by a friend's father's Peter Paul and Mary record and like Brucie's students, I liked it enough to look further.
Our attitude over the years got us into a lot of trouble. We were the first "folk" group to take a pa system into a Melbourne folk club but at the time, the clubs were moving from quiet coffee lounges into the pubs where halfway through the night the audience was drunk and noisy. It seemed logical to us. Later I saw many of the people who made a point of walking out at Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span concerts. Were they folk bands?
To get to the beginning of this thread, in 1977 we met Chris Barber and Vic Gibbons who were part of the group who ran the Reading Festival which in those days was Rock Blues Jazz and Folk. By the time we took up their invitation to play the festival in 1979, it had changed dramatically and was pure rock and mostly a punk crowd. One of the high ranking overseas bands was beer-canned and had to leave the stage. We played Aussie folk songs with banjos, fiddles and guitars and a "Drum kit" made of beer bottles nailed to a stick and we got an encore. Punk was about cutting the crap and though I never did really get into it, it fitted pretty well with how we saw things at the time. I loved the stuff the Pogues and Dubliners did together.
One other point, one song that always seems to get old folkies at almost any venue on board (and one of my favourites) was/is Creedence Clearwater's Lodi. Sang soft and slow, you'd swear it was a folk song. Sorry for the tirade. I need to take brevity lessons from Malcolm.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: John Routledge
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 07:37 PM

Effort needs to be put into appreciating certain forms of music and song and when (if!!) younger people realise this as they get older then there is hope for a greater appreciation of Folk Song and Music.

If this does not happen then I agree that there is no future for the forseeable future :0)


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