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Obit - Folk music and its relevance

GUEST,Danger danger 26 Nov 04 - 11:03 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 26 Nov 04 - 11:17 AM
GUEST 26 Nov 04 - 11:18 AM
Pete Jennings 26 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 26 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,danger danger 26 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM
Paco Rabanne 26 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 26 Nov 04 - 11:22 AM
Pete Jennings 26 Nov 04 - 11:23 AM
Paco Rabanne 26 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 26 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 26 Nov 04 - 11:34 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 26 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM
Paco Rabanne 26 Nov 04 - 11:43 AM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM
DonMeixner 26 Nov 04 - 12:17 PM
GUEST 26 Nov 04 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,Frank 26 Nov 04 - 12:24 PM
GUEST 26 Nov 04 - 12:44 PM
PennyBlack 26 Nov 04 - 02:19 PM
Peace 26 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM
PoppaGator 26 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM
DonMeixner 26 Nov 04 - 02:58 PM
John Routledge 26 Nov 04 - 03:48 PM
jacqui.c 26 Nov 04 - 04:25 PM
SINSULL 26 Nov 04 - 04:33 PM
Hand-Pulled Boy 26 Nov 04 - 04:40 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Nov 04 - 04:48 PM
Amos 26 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM
Pat Cooksey 26 Nov 04 - 05:48 PM
GUEST 26 Nov 04 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,smiler 26 Nov 04 - 06:23 PM
PoppaGator 26 Nov 04 - 06:27 PM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 07:21 PM
Mudlark 26 Nov 04 - 07:34 PM
DonMeixner 26 Nov 04 - 07:36 PM
PennyBlack 26 Nov 04 - 07:36 PM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 07:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Nov 04 - 07:40 PM
Nemesis 26 Nov 04 - 07:50 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Nov 04 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Songster Bob 26 Nov 04 - 08:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Nov 04 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,maryrrf 26 Nov 04 - 09:51 PM
Malcolm Douglas 26 Nov 04 - 10:07 PM
Bill D 26 Nov 04 - 10:16 PM
PoppaGator 26 Nov 04 - 10:23 PM
John C. 27 Nov 04 - 05:34 AM
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Subject: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Danger danger
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:03 AM

Why folk music is beginning to lose its relevance.

As a member of a duo who were banned from the sun inn folk open mic for having views which superceded the value of a 15th cnetury cornish fishin' village, I would like to state my opinion of today's folk music and singers.

Is not folk in the end about the people (i.e folk) and should not be classed as a certain musical spieces such as Bodrum, guitar and wailing out of tune voices, but the basic principal of the song. Punk in its finest non-school kid whining aspect is just a contempary version of what people were trying to say 200years ago.

People who refuse to seee this, mostly the middle classes who sing about the struggle of the people but would shit themselves if an ethnic minority moved next door are destroying whats left of this fine heritage. For homework listen to Jello Biafras working of Phil Oak's "Love me I'm a Liberal" for meaning.

Until the wax jacket cretins realise that Folk can be fun and not 100 verses of Dilly Dally my dear Sally and can include3 topics from the last 20years then the music will become irrelevant. If somehow this trend can change we can all get back to what it really means. A voice for the people through music.

MY TWO PENNIES!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:17 AM

not sure who you are, or why you were "banned" from The Sun session, but I know that the people that run the sessions, Roger and Mick, run them fairly and everyone gets a chance to do their bit.
However, if you start sining Punk songs at a Folk session, you probably aren't in the right place, try The Adelphi.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:18 AM

Get a spell checker, FFS.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM

Well, as it happens there's a couple of "ethnic minorities" moving in next door as I type - the truck is still being unloaded - and I ain't shitting myself, and I've got a wax jacket, though there ain't much wax left on it. However I've never heard of Dilly Dally my dear Sally nor have I ever read such a load of cobblers in my life.

If you want to play modern music, that's fine by me, but don't expect to be able to play it in a "traditional" folk club, dummy.

Pete


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM

piss off guest.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,danger danger
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM

Thank you gentleman for proving my point


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM

What key are your songs in?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:22 AM

Waht point is that?
Who are you, who banned you and what did they say to you?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:23 AM

Obvioulsy a complete idiot and a troll to boot. Let this one die.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM

We know who this is, don't we jOhn?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM

Why for stating a point Mr Jennings? I never put down folk music, there's great folky acts out there in Hull and surroundin' areas, Cowfish, Harri Watts band, etc etc..... this is a rail against the clique nature of certain folk groups. Obviously I'm touchin' the nerve on some people - which again proves my point.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:34 AM

Guest-as i said, your material should suit the venue and event, if you start doing punk, [or heavy metal, etc], at a session where everyone else is singing traditional folk songs your material is not going to be appreciated no matter how good it is, like I said, if you want to do Punk stuff, try the Adelphi, or The Lamp.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM

Dunno Ted, is it Cracktown?

danger-are you cracktown?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:43 AM

I reckon so jOHN,


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Subject: RE: Obit: Folk music and its relevance
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM

I don't give a shit about how relevant folk music is.

I like it if it's musically interesting and if it's entertaining.

Go back to your naval gazing.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: DonMeixner
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:17 PM

It is "Phil Ochs" by the way.

Don


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:17 PM

Actually, I'm in complete agreement with Danger Danger's assessment of the folk scene, and it equally applies to the nature of the folk scene in the US, which is even more moribund as a result of the middle class middle age revivalist syndrome.

It also makes for shit, unimaginative music most the time, and complete denial that most people who perform folk music are technically trained, note reading musicians, not the self-taught.

There is some truth to the idea that other genres of music have become today's folk music, if we use the same yardstick to measure contemporary music as we do historic "folk" music. Punk is one area of music where this is true. So are hybrids of traditional music of one or more ethnic music traditions combined with contemporary pop, rock, punk, jazz, blues, dance music, etc.

It is the traditionalist purists that have made sure this is museum music, for only them to perform for schools, community centers, etc etc while the spirit of living traditions is slapped down and demonized as "crap".

I say here, here to Danger Danger.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:24 PM

Folk music is open to interpretation these days. It seems there is no agreement on how to define it.

It's music that connects with people. Instead of history which is facts, it tells about how people felt at one time or another.

It will always be relevant because it is the deepest expression of
humanity and culture(s). It will be relevant because it embraces those values of respect for tradition, caring about how people felt, music that is simple but sincere and unadorned with specious complexity, carried on by those who are not necessarily in the spotlight or in the media,
and shared from generation to generation away from the corrupting influence of those who use market forces to gain power in the music industry.

It will be critical when it's necessary to do so. It will be topical because that is what concerns everyday people. It will be made up, composed, changed, altered to fit new circumstances, flexible, resilient in the face of commercialism and not subject to the whims of a greedy, disposable musical product for public consumption. It's not a musical candy bar, coke machine, MacDonald burger or plastic cup to be thrown away after its use. It stays because it is of substance and reflects the courage of culture(s) to survive.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:44 PM

"It will always be relevant because it is the deepest expression of
humanity and culture(s). It will be relevant because it embraces those values of respect for tradition, caring about how people felt, music that is simple but sincere and unadorned with specious complexity, carried on by those who are not necessarily in the spotlight or in the media,and shared from generation to generation away from the corrupting influence of those who use market forces to gain power in the music industry."

This is the essence of punk music, in other words. There are already "traditionalists" in punk music who care deeply about and have a tremendous amount of respect for punk music as a musical tradition/genre. The music itself is simple and unadorned, very sincere, and has been carried out mostly on the fringes of society for two generations, soon to be going on three. There are currently fears that the punk scene is being co-opted by the Avril Lavigne syndrome of a music industry looking to exploit the resurgence of punk culture as a commodifiable youth nice market the way it was done to hip hop. But most those involved in punk are wise to that, and seem to be much more dedicated to DIY and less susceptible to the seductions of money and fame which are, of course, anathema to the punk scene in the same ways as it has been historically to the folk scene.

We'll see.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: PennyBlack
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:19 PM

Can I scream?
We lack the motion to move to the new beat!
We lack the motion to move to the new beat!

It's here for us to admire if we can afford the beauty of it
If we can afford the luxury of turning our heads if we can
Adjust that 1000 dollar smile and behold the creation of man
Great words won't cover ugly actions
Good frames won't save bad paintings!

We lack the motion to move to the new beat!
We lack motion!

When the day is over the doors are locked on us
Cause money buys the access and we can't pay the cost
How can we expect anyone to listen if we are using the same old voice
We need new noise
New art for real people!

We dance to all the wrong songs
We enjoy all the wrong moves
We dance to all the wrong songs
We dance to all the wrong songs
We enjoy all the wrong moves
We dance to all the wrong songs

We're not
We're not
We're not
We're not
We're not
We're not
Leading!

We dance to all the wrong songs
We enjoy all the wrong moves
We dance to all the wrong songs
We dance to all the wrong songs
We enjoy all the wrong moves
We dance to all the wrong songs

Here we go!

We dance to all the wrong songs
We enjoy all the wrong moves
We dance to all the wrong songs
We're not leading

The new beat
The new beats
Thank you



-------------------------------------------

Maybe Refused said it in "New Noise" above?

No "boxes" for music in our house, we either like it or we don't.

PB


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Peace
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM

I don't understand the point of this thread.

I do not read music--except with the greatest of difficulty. That thanks to an introductory course I took at university--and elective that I figured would increase my GPA at the time. I have always played by ear, and listening to a song twice will give me the chords and melody (some exceptions do apply). If a chord beats me I call someone and ask.

I never found folk people to be stodgy or offended that I sang stuff I'd written (folk/rock influenced), songs I liked by other writers or arrangements of some traditional material. Equally, while I couldn't take a steady diet of traditional folk, neither could I take a steady diet of anything else, either.

I am aware that Malvina Reynolds "Little Boxes" addressed urban sprawl and mass-produced houses, but it might remind us that we just LOVE to put things in boxes. I agree with what Martin Gibson said above.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM

Thanks, brucie.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM

I don't even like punk music, but I can't help but nod in agreement with the last couple of messages posted by punk apologists. The music certainly is honest and unadorned, and thus meets at least some of the criteria that define "traditional" or "folk" genres.

However, punk music obviously will not meet *all* of the criteria that define acceptable styles of performance at certain trad-folk venues. And it's not the only kind of music that, on the one hand, might plausibly claim "folk" legitimacy, while on the other hand might be understandably unwelcome in certain folk contexts. I wouldn't expect even the oldest-style electric blues, for example, to be appropriate for every session or gathering.

If a given audience is not interested in your music, whether because they're not receptive to your viewpoint or simply because you're 'way too LOUD for them, have the good grace to find (or found!) a more hospitable venue.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: DonMeixner
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:58 PM

It seems to me that the lack of relevance isn't in the music but in the snobbery that tends to come along with everything that we hold sacred in one form or another. There are music snobs in every type and style out there and none are worse or as humorous than the music snobs who, wrapped in the cloak of academia, claim I have heard real music and it is ____________ .

   Relevance is a fleeting and temporary thing at best. But relavance has the habit of coming around again. In the meanwhile the song becomes historic, sometimes quaint, and often nostalgic. Interstingly, much of what Phil Ochs (Phil Oaks in the first posting) wrote is becoming relevant again. "Love Me I'm a Liberal","Cops of the World", "There But For Fortune", and probably a bunch more come to my mind. The need and the sentiment are the same as when Phil wrote those songs in the 60's. Is the relevance of those sentiments only meaningful if someone new writes a song in a new way, in a new style?
Or do Phil's songs still have merit and worth? And if Phil's music is still worthy is the new song simply derivitive? Or is the new song the style and whatever Phil did simply relegated to the quaint and toothlessly historical. And is the replaying of these old songs by me, who is middle aged, simply a nostalgic paen to the past and a refusal to accept the new?
   And will the weight of the music I play only have value when I start to play in the new style?

Don


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: John Routledge
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:48 PM

Guest Danger Danger.: Please post a list of clubs with this attitude as I would love to attend them.

Have you ever tried to perform 50's Rock and Roll in a Poetry Reading Club?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:25 PM

From personal experience in another part of the UK I know that there are many more venues catering for modern acoustic music than will accept traditional folk music. For my part I enjoy traditional folk and do not find modern punk or rap or pop to my taste. As a result I do not go to places that cater for that type of music. Why should I, and others who have similar tastes, have to accept this type of music at the venues that cater for my kind of music?

I have been in a situation where I stopped going to a particular venue because the style of the music became too broad and I did not find it enjoyable. I would go with jOhn here - find somewhere where your music fits and don't expect members of existing sessions to have to conform to YOUR own view of what should be played. That is showing a very immature attitude and is downright rude as well.

By the way, I don't have a waxed jacket or get upset with ethnic minorities moving into the neighbourhood.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:33 PM

What is a waxed jacket? I know I don't object to the ethnic minorities on my street but I may have a waxed jacket and just don't know it. Or is it some UK thing?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:40 PM

I knew you were angry jOhn 'cos all of your spelling was good. Whoever you are and whatever you play then sing and play to the best of your ability and if you're still crap then I'm sure you'll be told. Open sessions give new and old a like to 'have a go'.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:48 PM

Why not go to a punk venue and try to sing a traditional folk song and see what happens?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Amos
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM

No, punk i s not a form of folk music. It never has been, never will be, can't make it into that definition. At best it is cult music, some small subset of urban musical anarchic melodrama. A splinter-group on a small backwash of the stream that was born in African rhythm and the blues, but a splinter with genetic malformations throughout.

A


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM

And anyway, punk bands are just revivalists of the 1980s: not an original thought amongst punks since 1990.

Now metal, on the other hand....


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Pat Cooksey
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:48 PM

I think that Shane McGowan despite being a revivalist from the
great days of Irish folk, wrote great lyrics, in the days when
the Pogues were playing in Irish pubs in Camden Town they had
mainly a punk music following.
I sang, and played with various forms of the band in those days,
and really enjoyed it, Terry Woods was at this time a legend of
Irish music but recognised the fact that Irish music is ever
evolving, and could be presented in many ways.
In nuremberg where I live The Pogues minus McGowan played at the
Bardentreffen, the meeting of the Bards, to 40.000 people.
The Albion band representing the U.K. one week later had barely
200 people.
Folk music has great relevance, and allways had, whether in the
U.K. the U.S.A. or Europe, but if it remains static it will die,
or be championed by an ever decreasing group of tradionlists
rooted in the sixties.
All the best,
Pat Cooksey.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:06 PM

"No, punk i s not a form of folk music"

What about The Pogues?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:23 PM

If it was an open mic, they should have let you on regardless of style. Otherwise it wouldn't have been an open mic.

If someone doesn't like it, they only have to go to the toilet or the next bar, for the two or three songs.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:27 PM

My aging eardrums may be part of the reason I have no desire to subject myself to punk, and I've never been able (or for that matter even tried) to decipher the lyrics buried amid all those decibels. However, I do understand that some young people use this medium to air their grieveances and I acknowledge that one of the many functions of a community's music is to provide a voice for this general sort of thing.

The lyrics posted above by PennyBlack are certainly eloquent and impressive -- but I was able to access them only in the form of characters on a screen. I seriously doubt I ever would have or could have heard and understood them in their intended context, as sung in the midst of high-decibel electronic cacaphony.

So, I'll allow that punk music -- and even rap, for which I have even less tolerance -- can plausibly claim some legitimacy.

Doesn't mean I have to like it, though!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:21 PM

The whole test of it all will be if anyone cares 30-40 years from now.

Obviously what is now considered classic rock is now a form of folk music as it has withstood the test of time and is now considered relevant by a whole new generation of fans.

My step-son, 19 recently boght Crosby, Stills, and Nash's first album and asked me if I was familiar with it. Will that happen with the punk stuff from today(or from 1985) in the year 2022?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Mudlark
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:34 PM

Trad folk music is dying? Au contraire! Movies like O, Brother and Songcatcher were very popular (and tho the movies may not ha e been great a lot of the music WAS), and at least in my neck of the woods, the folky type venues are doing fine. So fine, in fact, that I have to order my tickets early as they almost always sell out before the concert date.

And...if I plunk down hard cash for a concert put on by the Folk Music Society   I would be pretty pissed off if what I got was punk, or raggoe...or Beethoven, for that matter. And I'd like to see how long a modern day Benny Goodman would last, let alone   a Michael Smith or Kate Rugby, on stage at the local tavern that features hard rock bands.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: DonMeixner
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:36 PM

Hi Martin,

Yup. We'll all be sitting around campfires singing In My Time of Need or Gothic Sanctuary untill some says do an oldie and I'll ripp it up with an album length job of Thriller.

Whatever happened to Iggy Pop?

Don


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: PennyBlack
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:36 PM

or even in the year 2525

PB


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:38 PM

Mudlark, without getting into the whole folk definition, movies like O Brother did much more for bluegrass players and not much for folksingers.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:40 PM

It seems to me that "punk" doesn't actually mean a kind of music as such, but rather an attitude towards the music and the performance.

There've been plenty of musicians who in their tiem have been called "punk", and songs written by them, that would find a welcome in any number of folk clubs and folk sessions. Shane McGowan's been mentioned, and Billy Bragg is another. Elvis Costello has been called "punk" in his day.

Of course, all these know how to put a song together and put a song across. That makes a difference.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Nemesis
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:50 PM

Haven't read all the thread - so, just responding to the first and last few posts:

''Punk'' at a ''folk'' session - well, how would it be if someone got up and tried singing(?) Claudy Banks (or something similar) at a ''Punk'' night?

Punk and Folk both encompass traditions of protest songs - in many ways they derive from a common grass roots - the medium of delivery is just different.

And, Martin, of course, Punk will survive .. it had too much of an impact - certainly as a medium of change (for the better), on the UK music scene.

Tell you what - listen live to old punk musician/poet 'Wreckless Eric' this Sunday 7-9pm GMT - he's still here, as are many Punk (and New Wave as it became) musicians ... many of them are Folk fans because of the similarities CLICK 'LISTEN' ON WEBSITE:BBC live & original music prog

Anyway, hasn't the discussion alleged 'chauvinism' / elitism/ clique-ism - what ever one wants to call it of some folk clubs ... been done to death here on Mudcat threads? Or, is that I'm getting very old and i) heard it all before, ii) these discussions occur cyclically?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:17 PM

Pat Cooksey is totally in the right of course. I suspect as a practising artist he sees the very real need for music to be a living developing thing. And Irish and American music just seem to do this naturally - its as though the very things that seem dear to English folk enthusiasts are the thing that stop it reaching the wider audience that would breath life into it and make new demands.

I don't know what the answer is, but I have learned over the years that we are all potentially creators and we need to be more tolerant of each others ambitions.

the way forward is not going to be closing our ears, nor confronting, and irritating the other party until he runs away in frustration.

Go to any major city round the world and listen to what the taxi driver plays - you will hear an identifiable Irish sound, American sound, Spanish sound, African sound. The English sound one suspects is urban rather than rural, Billy Bragg rather than the Watersons - but it isn't a coherent thing....and thats a pity cos until we have a coherent body of work, the sound that ordinary English men and women make with a guitar naturally - reflecting the way they sing and dance - rather than some oh so abstract piece of artifice .... so long English folk music will be on its way to the museum.

My tuppence worth.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:39 PM

Well, by one measure, punk is folk. It IS the music of a small, inward-looking group. However, it shares no traditional elements with typical folk music, so, it may be "FOLK," but it's not "OUR FOLK." That is, we're not the group that shares the values of punk, neither social nor musical.

So if you want to perform in a trad. folk club, you'd best be more or less trad. If you're a songer-singwriter, find a venue for original acoustic music. If the venue is an Irish pub (in the American meaning, that is), expect to do that drunken Irishman bit, and leave the Appalachian ballad, the polemic about American parlor-tricks, or the punk kiss-my-arse song outside. For the punk club, bring your earplugs and stratocaster, and don't expect your Gordon Bok or Eric Bogle song will "go over," unless you paste the basics of the punk "style" onto it (I can actually imagine a rock-anthem version of "the Band Played Waltzing Matilda," now that I think of it),

In all cases, remember the primary rule of the public performer -- know your audience.


Bob


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:58 PM

hey.. i've arrived too late at this thread
to make any significant points that have'nt already been
voiced and discussed..

i've been utterly convinced of the similarities
in form, content and spirit between punk and folk
since i was a teenage punkfolkrocker way back in the 70's;
listening, buying, and playing both..

.. and who says trad acoustic folk cant be played
just as enthusiastically lound and fast and rebeliously
[ and drunk & stupidly] as punk..

my knees might be getting a bit too knackered for pogoing
and my eardrums no longer as tolerant to putting my head
in the bassbins of PA speakers..

but i'll be happily playing middle-aged buzzsaw punk mandolin
in a mates genre mangling skiffle band this xmas..
on the same bill as various teen and 20 something
punk and metal bands..

guess i live and play in a musically diverse and tolerant community..
where its all about making an entertaining noise for anyone
who fancies a good night out and a laugh with their mates..


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:51 PM

Rather than performing punk or singer/songwriter or folk rock, etc. in a place that clearly is for people who want to hear traditional folk music, why not just find a venue that is amenable to what you want to perform? There are few enough venues any more that specialize in traditional folk so for God's sake let them be. There are lots of opportunities for punk, singer/songwriters, etc. It isn't a question of debating the merits of one form or another, and while it may be true that traditional folk is dying out (I hope not) if there are still clubs dedicated to that type of music, punk isn't going to please the audience.   Plans are underway now where I live to get a small traditional concert venue going and we will be quite clear that we'll give preferences to people who perform traditional music as opposed to singer songwriter, etc. We specifically want to provide a venue for this purpose and will make no apologies.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 10:07 PM

The only people who try that "relevance" nonsense are those who desperately want an uncritical audience but lack the talent to impress.

Music doesn't have to be made "relevant" every couple of years, any more than food does. Nevertheless, we see the purveyors of junk-food, and junk-music, trying to do just that at every opportunity. Teenagers, for example, are encouraged to believe that only their (manipulated) tastes are "relevant"; they are an impressionable and economically active market (though it is usually Mummy or Daddy's money) and, frankly, a soft touch.

Anybody who is out of their teens and still imagines that they are "interesting rebels" will probably have some hard lessons to learn quite soon. Meanwhile, the marketing boys are laughing all the way to the bank.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 10:16 PM

ahhh..thank you, Malcolm!...I would have taken 6 paragraphs to say that.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 10:23 PM

Amen. I would have used up two or three pages...


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Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: John C.
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 05:34 AM

We who are interested in traditional song are always being told that it is dying out and 'no longer relevant' (whatever that means!). Back in the 1880s (I think) Flora Thompson, in her book 'Lark Rise to Candleford' wrote of how the singers of the old songs were being rapidly phased out by singers of music hall songs (the 'pop' songs of that era). Nevertheless a singer who she called 'Old David' was always rolled out to sing 'The Outlandish Knight' on special occasions.
Just last week (Nov 2004) a mate of mine stood up and sang a version of the 'Outlandish Knight' that I had never heard before - and it still gave me a buzz, even though I have heard many versions and know the story backwards. Such songs have tendency to endure, whilst music hall and punk and other such commercial fodder for sheep-like fashion victims pass rapidly into oblivion. At the end of the day its quality that counts - ephemeral popularity means very little - 'eat s..t - 10 million flies can't be wrong'!


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