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what is old-timey music?

GLoux 11 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM
Will Fly 11 Feb 09 - 11:30 AM
TinDor 11 Feb 09 - 11:02 AM
Stringsinger 13 Jan 09 - 01:18 PM
Goose Gander 13 Jan 09 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,BanjoRay 13 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM
TinDor 13 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM
The Sandman 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM
The Sandman 12 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM
TinDor 12 Jan 09 - 02:24 PM
deleuran 18 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM
open mike 18 Apr 08 - 12:08 AM
Fortunato 17 Apr 08 - 08:51 PM
deleuran 17 Apr 08 - 04:55 PM
Goose Gander 17 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,john f weldon 17 Apr 08 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,Russ 17 Apr 08 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Russ 17 Apr 08 - 12:18 PM
Lonesome EJ 17 Apr 08 - 11:40 AM
M.Ted 17 Apr 08 - 10:31 AM
Janie 17 Apr 08 - 10:12 AM
The Sandman 17 Apr 08 - 10:02 AM
Fortunato 17 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM
M.Ted 16 Apr 08 - 04:37 PM
The Sandman 16 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM
deleuran 16 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM
The Sandman 16 Apr 08 - 12:52 PM
The Sandman 16 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM
Goose Gander 16 Apr 08 - 11:59 AM
M.Ted 16 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM
Lonesome EJ 16 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM
glueman 16 Apr 08 - 10:51 AM
The Sandman 16 Apr 08 - 10:34 AM
M.Ted 16 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM
glueman 16 Apr 08 - 08:17 AM
The Sandman 16 Apr 08 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,glueman 16 Apr 08 - 07:39 AM
The Sandman 16 Apr 08 - 07:07 AM
Banjovey 16 Apr 08 - 12:26 AM
Goose Gander 16 Apr 08 - 12:21 AM
Janie 15 Apr 08 - 11:37 PM
Ruth Archer 15 Apr 08 - 07:54 PM
The Sandman 15 Apr 08 - 07:23 PM
M.Ted 14 Apr 08 - 09:29 PM
The Sandman 14 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM
Banjiman 14 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM
The Sandman 14 Apr 08 - 04:06 AM
Janie 13 Apr 08 - 11:26 PM
Desert Dancer 13 Apr 08 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,Greycap 13 Apr 08 - 08:06 PM
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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: GLoux
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

Thanks for the Blind James Campbell String Band link. Great clip. Definitely old-time. Love the tuba.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:30 AM

If you listen to the music of the 1920s (for example), there's considerable crossover between: string bands of the time, jug bands, popular songs, country songs, vaudeville songs and early jazz. In one sense or another, it's all "old-time music" - it's all very much in the feel and the interpretation. What's also interesting is the crossover between black and white performances and performers. There are some fascinating compilations on some of the Roots label issues in the late 60s and early 70s - and I must now go and dig out some examples - songs like "Lindy", "Dallas Rag", etc.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: TinDor
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:02 AM

How would one classify this? Old Time? Jug Band? Blues/Jazz?


Blind James Campbell String Band "John Henry"


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 01:18 PM

Basically it is rural string band dance music though some singing ballads might come under that heading.

Bluegrass is essentially an extension of early string-band music. However, it's not necessarily meant to be danced to.

As to jazz influence, it's hard to escape it in American music. Monroe played patterns that resembled jump blues but would certainly have eschewed be-bop as Grissman has not.

It's best to look at the connectivity in folk music rather than the divisions to really understand it.

Franik


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:24 PM

Bill Monroe, who pretty much invented Bluegrass, admitted to a jazz influence on his music. What more do you need, Captain?


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

Anyone who can't see much difference between Bluegrass and Old Time as they are usually played doesn't seem to have listened very closely to either.
Ray


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: TinDor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM

Captain Birdseye:


1.there is aconsiderable difference in fiddle styles.
2.there is aconsiderable difference in banjo styles.


I agree that the playing techniques are different, Im just saying that the musical sounds are the based on the same things.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

while I pretty much agree with deleuran.
a few little points.
1.three finger style was first recorded and used by by Charlie Poole[Who by no stertch of the imagination was a bluegrass player].however you are absiolutely right that Bluegrass banjoists invariably use three fingerstyle,the only one who seems comfortable in more than one style, that I can think of is Ralph Stanley
2,old time fiddlers often use a system of bowing[pair and two seperate for four quavers]This is untypical for bluegrass.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

To me Old timey music and Bluegrass are pretty much the same but Bluegrass has more virtuoso playing in the instruments.[quote]
1.there is aconsiderable difference in fiddle styles.
2.there is aconsiderable difference in banjo styles.
Bill monroes, thoughts dont interest me,my ears tell me what it think,I dont need Bill monroes spin.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: TinDor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:24 PM

To me Old timey music and Bluegrass are pretty much the same but Bluegrass has more virtuoso playing in the instruments



Captain Birdseye wrote:

"you must be joking,modern jazz style solos.
can you imagine thelonius monk and earl scruggs,chalk and cheese"


The Jazz in Bluegrass was Bebopish Jazz (modern for that time period) while Western Swing had Swing Jazz. Something interesting...

    BIll Monroes own personal thoughts on what Bluegrass was:

            
"It's got a hard drive to it. It's Scotch bagpipes and old-time fiddlin'. It's Methodist and Holiness and Baptist. It's blues and jazz and it has a high lonesome sound. It's plain music that tells a story. It's played from my heart to your heart, and it will touch you." - Bill Monroe


Kentucky's State Bluegrass Song: "Blue Moon of Kentucky"

Probably the best technical but easy description of Bluegrass...

      "Monroe is most famous for creating bluegrass music (although it was not labeled as such until many years later). Despite the notion that bluegrass is a traditional style, Monroe mixed elements of old-time string bands with the blues, rural spiritual singing, and jazz solos. He abandoned the breakdowns and "hootin' and hollerin'" that characterized rural string band music for carefully rehearsed numbers that incorporated virtuoso solos by each player. Monroe also pushed the mandolin to the foreground where the fiddle usually dominated country string-bands.

Bill Monroe: Creating a Tradition


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: deleuran
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM

To Fortunato, I would like to add Stephen Foster as an example of a composer who's songs has gone into the Old-time repetoire. Such as "Oh, Susanna" and "Hard Times".

And to Laurel, your statement: so, old timey musicians sit down and their audiences stand up and dance? and blue grass bands stand up and their audiences sit down?
It is both true and at the same time, an oversimplification, that doesn't say anything about the music.

And: I think of old time being mainly instrumental, and blue grass has vocals.
Again an oversimplification. As I have tried to say in my comment above (two up) There are a lot of songs in OT music. And many of them has become part of the, so to speak, standard repetoire of bluegrass, so there's a lot of connections between the two styles.
The main differences is in the way the treat the instruments. In OT the fiddle is mostly tuned in different kinds of tunings, that allow the player to use an open string for droning.
Bluegrass uses mostly standardtunings. And the banjo is a big difference. In OT the style is clawhammer, and this instrument also have different tunings for different keys.
In bluegrass, it is allways three finger picking, as invented by Earl Scruggs. Scruggs style.
Almost every bluegrass banjo player play this style.
And a third difference. In bluegrass they take turns playing solos, just like in jazz music.
In OT there are no individual solos, it is more a collective thing, like in the early jazz music. And with this I don't say it SOUNDS like jazz. I only talk about the way the music is arranged.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: open mike
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:08 AM

so, old timey musicians sit down and their audiences stand up and dance?
and blue grass bands stand up and their audiences sit down?

In fiddle contests, most of the tunes will be "old-timey" music,
in fact the names of the organzations that produce the contests
often have the word old time in their name,such as,
California State Old Time Fiddlers Association.

I think of old time being mainly instrumental,
and blue grass has vocals.

they both are great!

Laurel


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Fortunato
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:51 PM

thanks deleuran for the info, perhaps we can make it over some day.
we had loads of fun with the FOAOTMAD folks this year, and I'm sure it would be grand to be amongst Danes who do this music you have so accurately described as an amalgum of heritages and styles that Susette and I call Old Time Country Music.

I would add to your statement above that 'popular' songs from the 1800's, composed songs, have also found their way into the amalgum, Lorena being one notable example. Are you from Dixie is another.

all the best
chance


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: deleuran
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:55 PM

"great to hear there are old time bands in Denmark, how lively is the scene there?
Are there festivals, venues?"


The scene is very limited. We are only few bands playing that kind of music. There are about 2000 people in square dance clubs, but the number of bands who actually play that kind of music is rather small. You can find a couple of bands among our top friends in the MySpace profile mentioned above.
Possum Whackers and The Barking Bulldogs and Big Hungry Joe

Once a year, the Danish Folkmusic Society, DAFF
have a gathering in september. A weekend with dancers and musicians from all over the country gather to play, dance, jam, drink beer and have a good time.
There's is a folk music festival in Tönder, with many kinds of folkmusic. Danish, irish, scottish, scandinavian and american folk music. And once a year a bluegrass festival in Fredericia. That's about it.

"Did most old-time music originate as fiddle tunes? Invariably, at sessions I attend, fiddle players will be the first ones to call for an old-time song."

My own entrance to Old-time music, started in the early sixties, when the american folk revival hit Denmark. Dylan, Joan Baez, Pete and Mike Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton, inspired me to check out, the older stuff. And as mainly a guitarist and singer, became very interested in folks like Doc Watson, Clarence White, and many, many more.
Later I began to listen to bluegrass, and I admit, I am a sucker for the virtous players, like Doc, Tony Rice, Norman Blake.
And I found through the years, that a lot of the same songs and tunes could be found in both genres.
And now yet more years later, when I started playing in the band Big Hungry Joe, I find the same songs and tunes again, and learn, that it is called Old-time music.
But the basis is the same (New tunes are written off course, which only goes to show, that it is not museum music, but folk music very much alive).
If you go back and investigate the music gathered in the early and mid 60's by Folkway Smithsonian among others, you'll find, that Old-time music, found in the Appalachians, Kentucky, north Carolina, Virginia and surrounding areas, are a lot of different things.
It is a cappella songs, songs with solo banjo (mostly clawhammer or frailing), fiddle, guitar, mountain dulcimer, harmonica ("The poor man's fiddle") autoharp, bones,
jews harp.
So Old time music is a lot of other things, than just the fiddle/banjo/yeehaw/saturday night barn dance thing.
But with that said, a very central thing in OT is the fiddle and the banjo, as it is music made for dance. The pattern in the instrumentals is almost always the same: An A-part repeated two times, and a B-part repeated two times, and over again as many times as it takes to do the dance.
I think, that the "meditative" aspect mentioned above is very adequate.

But in the beginning was the song, and later the instruments came. The immigrants from mostly the british isles, came to these parts of America. As in Denmark, where I live, the fiddle was the main instrument, when there were dances out in the countryside.
Not everybody could play the fiddle, so what to do if you wanted music?
Songs! Songs were everywhere. Everybody could sing a song (this was before television and radio), and the lyrics often contained a story, that came from real life, and thus carried stories and folktales on to the next generations. This has been general for folk music everywhere I guess.

In the case of OT music, the fiddle came wih the immigrants from Europe, and in America it got into a happy marriage with the banjo that came with the black slaves from the south.
So, as someone mentioned above, it is a strong mix, between the folksongs and tunes
from europe, some of which goes back a couple of hundred years, and the influence from the black music, and the blues. And the fiddle and the banjo, is almost a lable on this kind of music.
If you try to chase some of the jug bands, and black stringbands from the 20's and 30's you will find that there's a thin line between the white bands and the black bands, they both took elements from each other. And inspired each other. So in music, so much for segregation :-)

If you have read so far, I thank you for your patience, and hope it makes some sense.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM

Or 'Cotton-Eyed Joe'!


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: GUEST,john f weldon
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:37 PM

I prefer defining musical categories broadly; the hair-splitting can make you squirm. I have an old folkways collection of "OTM" that includes both Jesse Fuller and Doc Watson.

I think of it as "music that sounds like it's always been around."

In those old Biblical movies they always have pretty heavy orchestral music on the sound track, but I suspect if you travelled back in time, you'd find they were listening to "Old Joe Clark."


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:19 PM

If the preceding sounds familiar think "World Music."

Russ (Permanent GUEST)


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:18 PM

The story as I heard it is that "old time music" was a category invented by the record companies in the 20s.

They discovered a target market and needed a general label to put on a new bin in the record stores. There were already bins for "opera," "classical," "tin-pan alley," etc.

The music was aimed at rural southererns, former rural southerners, and rural southern wannabes.

The epicenter of the "big bang" would be Ralph Peer's Bristol Session.

If you listen to the old 78s they are remarkably diverse. About all they have in common is the label "old time."

Russ (Permanent GUEST and old time musician)


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:40 AM

Did most old-time music originate as fiddle tunes? Invariably, at sessions I attend, fiddle players will be the first ones to call for an old-time song.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:31 AM

Try this: Big Hungry Joe at MySpace

I had trouble with the link initially, but changed browsers(to Safari), and it worked fine.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:12 AM

http://www.myspace.com/hungryjoe

Link to deleuran's band on Myspace.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:02 AM

I couldnt find you on myspace,can someone put in a link.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Fortunato
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM

deluran

great to hear there are old time bands in Denmark, how lively is the scene there?

Are there festivals, venues?
best
chance


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:37 PM

Sounds great--"interesting" video, too!


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

Iwill listen.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: deleuran
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM

I am a newcomer here in the mudcat cafe, and very new in this thread, and I haven't read half of it, but as a member of something as unusual as a danish old-time band, I feel like posting some of my favorite OT bands:

Foghorn Stringband
The Freighthoppers.
The Gilded Bats
The Roan Mountain Hilltoppers
Boiled Buzzards
The Improbabillies
And lots more. You can find OT bands as far away as Japan.
And if I may take the liberty to mention our own little band you can hear us on MySpace on this adress:
http://www.myspace.com/hungryjoe


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:52 PM

This really isn't a controversial point. Robert Cantwell, Bill Malone and other writers have noted this influence.

So you don't like bluegrass much. Neither do I, truth be told. But that's not really the point, is it?
I dont care which writers noted this influence. I use and trust my own ears.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM

with respect I hear no influence of modern jazz in the music of Flatt and Scruggs and Monroe.
I hear the influence of jazz in western swing.
lester flatt did not use jazz chords.nor do I hear much improvisation in Scruggs playing.so we will have to beg to differ.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:59 AM

Captain –

Bluegrass came together in the forties and fifties, "contemporary jazz" in this context would have been the jazz of those decades. Jazz was one of the many commercial and folk influences that worked upon bluegrass in those formative decades. Western Swing already had brought the jazz idiom into white country music, Monroe and others merely built upon this.

This really isn't a controversial point. Robert Cantwell, Bill Malone and other writers have noted this influence.

So you don't like bluegrass much. Neither do I, truth be told. But that's not really the point, is it?


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM

The "classifications" that you talk about are pretty artificial--and what stands out isn't necessarily the essence of what is there. I heard Bela Fleck explain and illustrate the be-bop elements in Earl Scruggs' banjo style twenty years or so ago, and given that he's built a fairly impressive career on it...well..

Grandpa Jones was probably one of the more widely listened to banjo pickers, owing to his recording career, and a great musician, as well--and, that aside, I am listening because of Merle. Your banjo guys are great, no doubt about it, and a lot more generally interesting to me--they are traditional players, after all--I listen old Uncle Dave more than all the BG guys put together, again, a matter of taste--


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM

Long live eclecticism! The Boulder group I sometimes sit in with calls itself a Bluegrass Jam, but in a recent session you would have heard Soldier's Joy, followed by John Hardy, followed by Townes Van Zandt, followed by Whiskey Before Breakfast, followed by the Beatles. No one seemed to complain about any of it, because most of the participants are musical dilletanttes at heart. Beware Purism...that way lies anger and frustration!


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:51 AM

Nice clip here:
Roscoe Holcombe
From what I've seen of Holcombe previously he plays clawhammer and single left hand notes. Am I right in thinking that?


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:34 AM

some of what you say is true,and while Jimmy rodgers used loius armstrong and Earl hines,and yodelled and used blues formats.
its not normally classified as JAZZ,in fact he is in the country music hall of fame.
I hear no modern jazz influence in the music ofLester Flatt EarlScruggs AND Bill monroe.
neither do I hear the influence of Ravi Shankar in the original Carter family,I do hear the influence of the blues,via Lesley Riddle.
Grandpa jones at least could entertain and while I prefer him marginally to Flatt and Scruggs.
they all pale into insignificance compared to Roscoe Holcomb Clarence Ashley ,Frank Profitt.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM

Bluegrass was commercial music, developed to give war/post-war audiences who wanted to see hot jazz soloing and hear tight vocal harmonies, really as much a business decision as a creative one, according to those who played it.

Jazz soloing was nothing new to Hillbilly music, Western Swing was, after all, swing--and Jimmy Rodgers recorded with jazz musicians and played blues--for that matter, the banjo itself was a jazz instrument, and the technique had evolved from 19th century rags--

I grew up in a Midwestern factory town, a lot of the folks had come from the South to work during WWII, and they brought their music with them. The old time Hillbilly musicians that I knew were much more sophisticated in their musical abilities than the folkies of the time who imitated them, and knew and played jazz/pop standards along with the old time stuff. Banjo pickers often played both tenor and 5-string--but tended to play guitar because banjo had gone out of fashion, and the "bluegrass revival" had not yet begun--

As to my preferences, I am listening to Grandpa Jones right now--make of that what you will--


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:17 AM

Now you put it like that Captain I agree. Bluegrass is show music, straight forward for the band re tuning, etc, but relying on one man show pieces for the thrills, it's not experimental in any way. Given the origins of the banjo it's surprising it has lost so much of its soul. My own playing is best decribed as 'tries hard' but even I mix rolls, frailing, slide at modest tempos that would have bluegrass afficionados pulling hair out.
I can still see the pleasure in staccato overdrive, without wanting to play my Deering that way.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:06 AM

yes I am being subjective,when Isay boring.
now I will try and say why its not very interesting,the continual use by lester flatt of his g run,really predictable.
the chord progressions used by Flatt and Scruggs in their tunes in randy lynn rag, flint hillspecial, etc are very similiar,the fact that many of the instrumentals are in the same key.
the fact they play in the same tunings,the fact that they play a lot of their tunes in the same tempo,rarely 6/8. its even worse than the wall to wall irish reel syndrome [irish reel players do play in different modes]
old timey banjo players have more variety in their sound, by using many unusual tunings,each tuning gives a different timbre.
Earl Scruggs was described in one of his books as the Paganini ,of the 5 string banjo.very apt.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:39 AM

There's something in what the Captain says but descriptions like 'boring' are pure subjectivity. Virtuosity is a much over-rated facet of music generally and right hand technique was what gave bluegrass its unique selling point, in modern jargon. Even so there's a lot of bluegrass that doesn't rely on speed for impact. Clawhammer and two finger playing lend themselves less to bravura technique but are still bluegrass. I like old timey too but feel no need to make a league table out of it.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:07 AM

Bluegrass, emanated about late forties early fifties.[Hardly contemporary jazz]
Flatt and Scruggs described their music as folk music with an overdrive[circa 1965].
perhaps there are different styles within bluegrass,but BillMonroe,Flatt and Scruggs,were not in my opinion influenced by JAZZ.
Earl Scruggs may be more recently Showing JAZZ INFLUENCES.
All this might indicate that a music as boring as Bluegrass ,progresses,from three chord pyrotechnics,and changes over a period of fifty years,thank god for that.
I would still prefer to listen to Roscoe Holcomb,Frank Profitt,Clarence Ashley,than to BillMonroe,Flatt and Scruggs.To me that kind of Bluegrass,Lost all that was appealing about old timey music,replacing it with an obession with right hand technique[forward rolls, backward rolls, sideways rolls]at the expense of subtlety ,feeling,soul,.
musical mathematics,an obession with technique at the expense of soul.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Banjovey
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:26 AM

Come to Sweet Sunny South old time music festival, Hastings, Sussex and find out.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:21 AM

" . . . you must be joking,modern jazz style solos . . ."

Captain -

Bluegrass was indeed strongly influenced by contemporary jazz, whether or not you personally hear the influence does not negate this fact.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Janie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:37 PM

Just in case somebody checks in here, wondering what old-timey string music is, here is a link to Roots and Branches website, featuring samples of (mostly) old-time music from many of my old pals in West Virginia.

Alice Gerrard, Gail Gillespie & Sharon Sandomirsky have recently put out a fine CD of old-time music, "The Road to Agate Hill" that is a sterling example, imho, of old time music, and is great example of what old time music is about - personal, neighborly, participatory.

Musically and scholarly, my humble opinion is exceedingly humble. I don't consider myself to be a musician. I am a folk. Reading through your posts is wonderfully educational. There is little interest here on Mudcat in old time music or bluegrass. I am always happy when either of these related genres get discussed and appreciate the information and insight I glean.

Thanks.

Janie


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:54 PM

Old Crow Medicine Show are a brilliant young Old-Timey string band.

Just saying.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:23 PM

The original bluegrassers modeled what they did after bebop--they wanted to be able to play modern jazz style solos that were more developed and individualized than the kind of breaks that you'd get in a Western Swing band, but very much an extension of them.
    you must be joking,modern jazz style solos.
can you imagine thelonius monk and earl scruggs,chalk and cheese.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:29 PM

Most people know the difference between bluegrass and old-timey, it's the explanations that they fight about.

The original bluegrassers modeled what they did after bebop--they wanted to be able to play modern jazz style solos that were more developed and individualized than the kind of breaks that you'd get in a Western Swing band, but very much an extension of them.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM

I think you will find massive differences in banjo styles,too.
frailing,Two finger picking[[thumb lead double thumbing]and downpicking, up picking[seegers basic strum] are associated with old timey.
bluegrass tends to be based round scruggs style picking,involving backward ,forward rolls,three finger up picking.quite different.
of course there will be people whose styles crossover from one to the other.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM

Fascinating......nice to see it's not just the UK "what is folk" debate that can tie people in knots! Less vitriol than when the trad v contemporary crowds get started though!

To me (as a UK banjo player) the difference between Bluegrass and Old Timey is the banjo technique employed. Bluegrass is usually picked using "roll" patterns whereas, Old Time(y) is usually played either frailing or clawhammer style using down strokes rather than up picking....having said that some people do "up" frail (Pete Seeger included).

Love both genres anyway.

Paul


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:06 AM

from what I understand the fiddle bowing styles of old timey and bluegrass are quite different.
generally[there are probably examples, that are exceptions]old timey fiddle bowing uses a particular slurring pattern,whereas Bluegrass fiddle bowing,the fiddle slurring,has much more variety.,and and more vareied and different combinations of seperates and slurs.
old timey fiddlers would tend to bow eight quavers,slur 2, 2 seperate. slur 2 2 seperate,bluegrass fidlers appear to bow differently.
I apologise if I have oversimplified or generalised,as Iam sure someone can quote a minority of old timey fiddlers who dont bow like this.


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:26 PM

From the peanut gallery, I first became interested in Old-Time music in the late '60's when the West Virginia revival of the music began. At small festivals, private parties, and on front-porches we would gather nearly every Saturday night. The players played, and the rest of us danced. These weren't dances, they were music parties, but the dancing was part and parcel. We'd clog or flat-foot, and there was always a space left clear on the porch or in the living room with the rugs rolled back for the dancers. When the weather was fine and the yard was flat or the traffic in the street was light, we'd line up and do simple reels that most everyone knew, since we didn't use a caller. At the small festivals, (My personal favorite was BJ Hunter's Old-Time music festival, near Marlinton, WV - just 150 to 200 people in the early years, and like a family reunion of old-time music folks from throughout the state,) you could count on impromptu reels starting up in the evening, provided we weren't *ss deep in rain and mud:>)

In Morgantown, old-time and Irish music prevailed, and now that I think about, we did a lot more dancing up there. Down in Charleston, the gang was more diverse. Some leaned more toward old-time, some leaned more toward bluegrass/ but there was certainly no clear line drawn in the sand. I will say that we danced less at the parties in Charleston when bluegrass musicians were in the majority.

I participated in African Dance classes for several years after we moved to North Carolina. The dancers and the drummers are of a piece, make frequent eye-contact with one another, and riff off each other. Back when I was young and it was all informal and just 15 or 40 folks getting together on a Saturday night, it was similar with old time music and dance.

Janie


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:30 PM

GUEST (Dick), looks like folks read the top of this old thread and missed your exciting news, so I've started a new thread for it on its own. Thanks for the hot tip!!

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: what is old-timey music?
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:06 PM

To give my 10 cents worth, I love both.
I can also distinguish between them but find it hard to describe to anyone else if they haven't been in touch with the music of America.
You will either know, or you won't.
They are both my favourite genres of music. They are great.


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