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BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan

dianavan 02 Oct 04 - 01:47 PM
beardedbruce 02 Oct 04 - 04:41 AM
dianavan 02 Oct 04 - 04:34 AM
CarolC 01 Oct 04 - 11:40 AM
dianavan 01 Oct 04 - 11:06 AM
CarolC 01 Oct 04 - 01:12 AM
Ron Davies 30 Sep 04 - 08:11 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 04 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Larry K 30 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM
Wolfgang 30 Sep 04 - 03:25 PM
George Papavgeris 30 Sep 04 - 02:41 PM
George Papavgeris 30 Sep 04 - 02:39 PM
CarolC 30 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM
CarolC 30 Sep 04 - 02:25 PM
dianavan 30 Sep 04 - 12:57 PM
CarolC 30 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM
Bobert 30 Sep 04 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Sep 04 - 05:58 AM
Strollin' Johnny 30 Sep 04 - 05:23 AM
Strollin' Johnny 29 Sep 04 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,Boab 29 Sep 04 - 03:09 AM
dianavan 29 Sep 04 - 12:45 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 01:47 PM

What does France and Germany call so many murders?

...and China 'might' doesn't mean China will.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:41 AM

Don Firth

As I have brought up in other threads, the US HAS declared that there is genocide going on in Sudan- But the UN refuses to make that statement, since it would require the UN to take action, which the UN is unwilling to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:29 AM

From Sunday's Washington Post:

"the admnistration will continue to press other countries to press the United Nations to press Sudan's government. The uncertainty of this strataegy was immediately apparent after Mr Powell spoke. Brushing aside the evidence, France and Germany declined to call the killings genocide. ... China, the leading foreign investor in Sudan's burgeoning oil fields, said it might veto a tough Security Council resolution."


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:34 AM

I do believe you may be right about that Carol C.

It may not play out exactly that way but basically, yeh, commit genocide (and I include those that stand by and watch), watch civil war occur, rush in to stop it and enjoy the spoils. I think its called divide and conquer.

Fill it up, America! (and this includes Canada) Besides the genocide you are allowing to happen, you are destroying the environment to boot. Way to go!

So much for the plaque at Dacchau - Never Again! Yeh, right!

Maybe since the U.S. is so busy, and Canada is so broke, Israel might like to send a few troops to the Sudan. Perhaps Russia or China. Go figure...

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:40 AM

The important question in my mind, dianavan, is why the government of Sudan is encouraging the Arab militias to conduct this genocide. The Arabs in Sudan have been bickering with the Black African Sudanese for generations over the land in question. It started becoming a genocide (several decades ago) when the Sudanese government started equipping the Sudanese Arabs with a lot of deadly weaponry. The result of this has been that the land gets cleared of its inhabitants. The Sudanese Arabs would like this to be so they can have the land that the Black African Sudanese have pretty much always inhabited. But I'd say the Sudanese government has no intention of letting anyone have that land until they've pumped all of the oil out of it.

My next guess is that when (and not until) all of the people have been cleared off of the land, that's when the US government will step in and say in outraged tones about the Sudanese government, "They committed genocide against their own people! They must be removed." And then they'll topple the Sudanese government and take control of the oil. This will be much easier for them to do since the Sudanese government will have already done all of the dirty work of removing the people from their land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:06 AM

Larry K - You said, "The US is criticized for being Unilateral in Iraq and criticized for not being unilateral in Sudan." Who said they want unilateral action by the U.S. anywhere?

Fact is, the U.N. turned their back on Rwanda and now they're turning their back on the Sudan. For the U.N. to be effective, the U.S. must also be involved but hopefully, under U.N. command. Maybe this time, they won't abandon their efforts.

We're talking about genocide! Stopping genocide is not the same as imposing democracy. For the world to sit by and watch this happen and do nothing is a crime! I call it racism.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:12 AM

I'm not sure what your point is, Wolfgang, but I would prefer it if the US would not try to be the leader in any initiative in Sudan for the reasons I have given on this thread as well as others. If the US does it, I will be suspicious of its motives because of its past record in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You evidently have been weirdly selective in choosing which statements of mine to quote here in this thread. You start off your post with an entirely innacurate quote from SRS about the Sudan not having any oil. As I'm sure you know from reading some of my posts you've neglected to provide quotes from, I have documented the fact that Sudan does indeed have oil. Quite a lot of it. I will be suspicious of any initiatives the US tries to lead in the Sudan precisely because of this.

On the subject of why the US media was all of a sudden noticing the situation in Sudan which had been ongoing for several decades at the time I made that post you quoted, I still would like to know why they completely ignored it for so long, and only just recently decided it was worthy of comment. I think they do indeed have a hidden agenda.

You seem to think your assignment is to follow me around and interpret the real meaning of my posts for everyone here in the Mudcat. Problem is, you're projecting your own bullshit onto me. You are amazingly consistent in mischaracterizing what I'm trying to say. I notice you don't like it much when others mischaracterize what you're saying though. I'd say that's pretty hypocritical of you, Wolfgang.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:11 PM

I'm sure Mr. Bush would be only too happy to send troops to straighten out the situation in the Sudan. All that would be needed is for all warring parties to send him a signed agreement that after he declares the enemy vanquished--- (the declaration of course being the whole point of sending troops)---that American soldiers will only be greeted with cheers and American flags. After the bitter disappointment of Iraq, where certain individuals have had the temerity to oppose Mr. Bush AFTER he had declared victory-- (a clear violation of the the rules)-- this will likely be his precondition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 03:51 PM

The problem, Larry, is that the UN has said plenty about the situation in Sudan, but unfortunately, because of the way it was originally set up, the UN has no teeth and can't back up it's policies. The US military has acted as the UN's teeth in the past--when the US administration felt like it (which is to say, when UN policy and US foreign policy were in agreement, e.g. the Korean "police action").

So you can't really fault the UN for not being "able" to do much. Their "rent-a-cop" is busy elsewhere.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM

As memory serves- 800,000 or so were killed in Rowanda while Clinton and the UN did nothing.    It is interesting to me that the same people who criticize Bush for doing nothing in Sudan, are the same ones who said we needed an international coalition in Iraq.   Mean while the UN has sat back under Kofi and watched genocide in Rowanda, Bosnia, and Sudan without doing anything.

The US is criticized for being Unilateral in Iraq and criticized for not being unilateral in Sudan.   What a bunch of hypocrites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 03:25 PM

Do a filter search here in the Mudcat on the word Sudan and see what comes up. (CarolC)

Good idea:

Since they evidently don't have any oil, it probably won't catch Cheney's attention. (SRS)

If the US does nothing right now, and allows the Sudanese government to kill and displace thousands and/or millions of Black African Muslims, then they can go in and do in Sudan what they did in Iraq, using the excuse of ethnic cleansing and/or genocide to remove the Arab Muslim government and take control of the oil. (Carol)

I wouldn't be encouraging the US government to lead any initiatives involving Sudan (Carol)

What hidden agenda has brought them (the media) out of the woodwork ...spreading more hatred toward Arabs perhaps? (CarolC)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:41 PM

...Meant "at home" - some hope!


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:39 PM

That's a little too all-encompassing for comfort, CarolC; you just condemned each and every US citizen to the hottest regions of hell. I'mm sure you didn't mean it quite the way it read (though to add credence to your statement you might draw attention the other meaning of "US", as in "we-us"). Just joking!

Creeping a little from the thread, it strikes me that 50 years ago we Europeans were condemning the US for being too inward-looking and we wanted them to get out and help. While now we are closer to a situation where we'd prefer them to stay at hope and stop "helping". Ironic, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM

The US has always been a greedy self-serving nation of racists. This is nothing new. The US is one of the reasons Haiti is as impoverished as it is. This has been going on for a long, long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:25 PM

The problem as I see it, dianavan, is once again one of controlling the oil supply. If the US does nothing right now, and allows the Sudanese government to kill and displace thousands and/or millions of Black African Muslims, then they can go in and do in Sudan what they did in Iraq, using the excuse of ethnic cleansing and/or genocide to remove the Arab Muslim government and take control of the oil. It's all about oil for the US. Do a filter search here in the Mudcat on the word Sudan and see what comes up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:57 PM

Carol C - I, too, would not want the U.S. to lead an initiative involving Sudan. I think it will take an international initiative but I would like to see the U.S. provide more in the way of media awareness and humanitarian aid. I do think, ignoring this problem smacks of racism.

Is it better to bring democracy to our 'Aryan' brothers than to provide protection for 'black' Africans who are being slaughtered by their own government? Is it better to protect our supply of oil or provide food, water and medicine to Haitian who have been devastated by a natural disaster?

I weep for the America that was once the champion of the oppressed.

Under George Bush, America has become the oppressor. A greedy, self-serving nation of racists.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM

I've said this before on other threads on this subject, but I wouldn't be encouraging the US government to lead any initiatives involving Sudan unless we want the Sudan to end up like Afghanistan or Iraq have ended up. Think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:39 AM

Amen, dianavan....

I've brought this up in several threads but don't hold your breathe waiting for Bush to do one danged thing about it... It just isn't as entertainin' for the NASCAR dads and moms as blowin' the Hell outta someone in Iraq... And, unfortuneatly, it is all about entertainein' dumbed down Americans while the military industrialists fleece them.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:58 AM

UK here SJ but I doubt it was a waste of time... There are things people comment on and things people do. I would not be surprised to learn donations have gone out from here to the crisis from US contributers to this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:23 AM

Told you it was a waste of time Dianavan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 04:58 AM

Thanks Dianavan, I've mentioned the Sudan crisis in several threads, hoping (seemingly in vain) to drag the attention of US 'Catters away from the navel-gazing of their show-biz presidential election.

Glad someone else has noticed the wholesale starvation going on elsewhere in the world. I personally care far more about these abandoned innocents than I do about the BS and razzamatazz that surrounds the election of another liar to the US Presidency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 03:09 AM

You are a little off-kilter with one of your statements/questions. There is an American presence in Haiti, albeit minimal. And I am like many another in this day and age; I have been bombarded with so many lies from politicians and their media mouthpieces in recent years that I have to hesitate when I hear words like "weapons of mass destruction" and "genocide" and "humanitarian intervention" that I am loath to form an opinion on the situation, wherever it may be. And there's oil in Darfur. Take Milosevic---the NATO powers had everyone believing that , definitely, this man was a murderous monster who had slaughtered countless thousands of human beings in an orgy of "ethnic cleansing". Now?---They are having one helluva task finding enough evidence of such actions to make the charges viable in the Hague court! So when do we start believing again what we hear? I do think that the U.N. should take some direct action; and that means ALL of the U.N. organisation ---of which America is, believe it or not, a member. We want no repeat, surely, of the Iraq "coalition of the willing" fiasco.


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Subject: BS: Time to re-deploy to Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 12:45 AM

So, its more important to be in Iraq than in Sudan or Haiti?

While America argues about oil and so-called democracy, 50,000 people in the Sudan have been murdered by the Janjaweed Militia and now it is rumored that the govt. of Sudan is amassing Arab militia in the south. This act of genocide by their own government has displaced more than a million people.

Meanwhile in Haiti, 2000 are presumed dead in the wake of tropical storm Jeanne and many more are facing starvation and disease... and where is the great America?

Has either candidate suggested that maybe there are greater priorities than Iraq?

...and the people are lulled into apathy by an election campaign that is a media event.

The new Iraqi army doesn't even have adequate armour! How many U.S. troops will be required to bolster this new puppet govt?

What happened to the compassionate America I once believed in?

(Their busy protecting what they think they are entitled to. Another countries resources.)

Sorry this is so long winded. I'm feeling desperate again.

F*** Off George Bush!

d


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