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BS: Why you don't like gay marriage

GUEST,guest "ohshenandoah" 03 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 03 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Joseph 03 Dec 04 - 12:21 PM
dianavan 27 Nov 04 - 11:15 PM
Cruiser 27 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM
Once Famous 27 Nov 04 - 10:45 PM
dianavan 27 Nov 04 - 10:21 PM
Firecat 27 Nov 04 - 08:04 PM
Peace 27 Nov 04 - 04:09 PM
Little Hawk 27 Nov 04 - 09:30 AM
Leadfingers 27 Nov 04 - 05:52 AM
LadyJean 27 Nov 04 - 01:05 AM
DougR 26 Nov 04 - 06:53 PM
Little Hawk 26 Nov 04 - 05:14 PM
Peace 26 Nov 04 - 02:48 PM
JohnInKansas 26 Nov 04 - 02:44 PM
Ebbie 26 Nov 04 - 02:16 PM
DougR 26 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM
Little Hawk 26 Nov 04 - 09:06 AM
freda underhill 26 Nov 04 - 07:41 AM
Paco Rabanne 26 Nov 04 - 07:36 AM
freda underhill 26 Nov 04 - 07:34 AM
Little Hawk 26 Nov 04 - 04:09 AM
Paco Rabanne 26 Nov 04 - 03:44 AM
Little Hawk 26 Nov 04 - 02:51 AM
Ebbie 25 Nov 04 - 09:34 PM
GUEST 25 Nov 04 - 08:57 PM
Ebbie 25 Nov 04 - 08:48 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 25 Nov 04 - 08:09 PM
Little Hawk 25 Nov 04 - 07:55 PM
Little Hawk 25 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Nov 04 - 05:10 PM
LilyFestre 25 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 25 Nov 04 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,*daylia* 22 Aug 04 - 08:53 AM
Peace 22 Aug 04 - 02:41 AM
GUEST,fred miller 22 Aug 04 - 12:08 AM
Peace 21 Aug 04 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,TIA 21 Aug 04 - 08:00 PM
GUEST 21 Aug 04 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,fred miller 21 Aug 04 - 01:24 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 04 - 10:39 PM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 10:32 PM
GUEST 20 Aug 04 - 10:06 PM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 10:00 PM
GUEST 20 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 09:56 PM
Peace 20 Aug 04 - 09:51 PM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 09:49 PM
GUEST 20 Aug 04 - 09:45 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,guest "ohshenandoah"
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM

Getting back to the question that started the thread--
Gay marriage is linked to anal sex and many people find anal sex disgusting. Exhibit A: Martin Gibson.
<>

Martha C. Nussbaum [the Ernst Freund Distinguished Service Professor of Law and Ethics at the University of Chicago,] said "Disgust is never a good legal argument." Her dispute with disgust rests largely on psychological evidence. She cites the work of the experimental psychologist Paul Rozin, who, after testing people's reactions to different disgusting substances, concluded that the core objects of disgust — feces, spit and semen — are all things that remind people of their own animality and decay. Disgust is revulsion at the prospect of taking decaying animal products into the body, she says. It guards the body's borders.
... The problem, Ms. Nussbaum says, is that many things seem disgusting only by association. People won't eat chocolate that has been molded to look like dog doo, or soup served from a sterilized bedpan. More to the point, people learn to hate by linking their natural sense of disgust to certain people. Misogyny, she argues, is based on the idea of women as sewers, receptacles for sperm.
http://www.truthinjustice.org/emotion-law.htm
<>

My second point-- The bible never explicitly states that homosexuality is wrong. You can go through the Bible with a fine tooth comb, and cull out a few passages. But when you go back to the original Greek or Aramaic, the word that is used means "temple prostitute." So the patriarchs were saying, People should not have sex with whores [of both sexes] at the temples.   

I have a wonder ful cartoon of angry micro-organisms gathered round a bride and groom micro-organism. They are shouting, "You are defying millennnia of single-cell reproduction!"

In geological time, or biological time, the insitution of Western European nuclear families is just a blink.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM

The majority of people are gettin' fed up with your political BS too, Martin. Maybe they will legislate your sorry ass out of inflicting further pain and harassment on an innocent public that would like to be left alone by mouthy knee-jerks like you. I think a majority of citizens would vote in favour of such legislation, and by your reasoning that would be the way to go, wouldn't it? The majority is always right, aren't they, Martin? Who cares about individuals who don't fit "the norm", right? Well, you sure as hell don't fit anyone's "norm", to put it mildly.

Enjoy it while you can, buddy, cos your big yap is soon gonna be illegal in my state of Illinois, pal, so mouth off while you still can or else move to Canada or Holland or some politically correct liberal place that can put up with shitheads like you! No gay marriage in Illinois and no more goddamn BS from Martin Gibson either! The majority rules, baby! Oook! Oook!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Joseph
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 12:21 PM

I think maybe the way conservative people can protect the sanctity of marriage is by outlawing divorce, not by outlawing others to marry. I am being sarcastic, This in not about protecting marriage it is about being homophobic and trying to have power and control of a minority group. I want all you conservative people to be aware that no matter what laws you try to pass, I will still consider myself married to my husband and there is nothing you will be able to do about that. Tell that to your Churches. I don't need your Church to approve my love for my husband, there are accepting Churches for homosexuals.

Thank god you don't have as much power as Hitler, and then I'm sure homosexuals would be burned at the stake.

Ciao


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:15 PM

Save your pity for children who have abusive fathers, Martin.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Cruiser
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM

Homosexuality is repugnant behavior. If you must engage in such depraved acts don't force the rest of us to recognize and respect such by calling it marriage. Call it civil union or whatever...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:45 PM

And those kids I kind of feel sorry for dianavan, the ones without strong family ties.

If I am not mistaken, gay marriage was just shot down in 11 states where it was on the ballot.

Cool.

I am sick of having all of this political correct shit shoved down my throat. I think most of America just said they weren't going to stand for it, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:21 PM

The only reason that gay marriage is an issue at all is because the insurance don't want to pay the extra benefits and social security doesn't want to pay spousal benefits.

As far as the kids go - anybody knows that you don't have to be married to have kids, anyway.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Firecat
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 08:04 PM

As far as I'm concerned, people can't help who they fall in love with and want to spend the rest of their live with.

I know people who think it's "repulsive", and that "it shouldn't be allowed", and have witnessed homophobic abuse myself (I managed to get rid of the people who were doing it), but if there were no differences between people, beliefs and sexual orientation, the world would be a very boring place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:09 PM

One of our fromer Prime Ministers said, "We have NO business in the bedrooms of the nation." He was right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 09:30 AM

Matter of fact, Doug, there was a happy time upon this land when there were no driver's licences, no speed limits, you coud fish when and where you pleased, and there were NO taxes! :-) Admittedly, there were other nasty problems...like intertribal warfare, for instance. Anyway, things were generally pretty good for the most part and people were much freer than they are now.

Then all those frigging paleskins came across the Great Water from Europe with their Bibles and their guns and money and everything went to shit!

Now there are so many people here, so many roads, and so little unspoiled land left that it has become necessary to have driving licenses, fishing licenses, speed limits, and taxes! Disgusting, but necessary.

Be that as it may, it is not necessary to have laws prohibiting gay marriage. Driving too fast can kill people. Fishing too much can wipe out fish stocks. Driving on public roads without learning how to first is dangerous. It is (theoretically) impossible to finance government and public services without taxes...

But...it is entirely possible to live next door to a gay couple without anything happening that will cause you to lose your life or go bankrupt! You don't like their lifestyle choices? Tough! Maybe I don't like your choices in clothing. So what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 05:52 AM

So who wants SAD Marriage ?? Just to even up the post number by the way !


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: LadyJean
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:05 AM

A lady I know was 46 when she married a 23 year old man. The Catholic church wouldn't marry them. (She'd been divorced twice before.) So they were married in a very high church Episcopal ceremony. She is now 62, and they're still married. They adopted a boy, privately, without an agency. They are not what you would call good parents. But nobody interfered, seriously, with their marriage, or their adoption.
My one and only objection to gay marriage is that my sister has horrible taste in women. You should see the nut casses she takes up with. She stayed with the last one for almost 7 years. At least there wasn't any legal tie between them.
But I don't see why my sister shouldn't have the same right to marry losers that straight women do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: DougR
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:53 PM

"Desire to control other people, L.H.?" You mean like issuing a driver's license, a fishing license, setting speed limits, requiring folks to pay taxes? Stuff like that?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:14 PM

Well said, John. It's clearly the person's own definition of the word "marriage" and all that it means that is behind most of the misunderstandings in this particular matter...

That, and the desire to control other people, allied with the fear of that which is unfamiliar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:48 PM

JiC: That is a wonderful piece of writing. Good on yer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:44 PM

Much of the discussion here mirrors what I see as the common fallacy of those who want to change the law(s) to prohibit gay marriage. The fallacy is that "marriage" means only one thing, and always means the same thing in all contexts.

Many years ago, when I was "counseled" on my pending marriage, my minister explained that:

1. The "marriage" LICENSE is something you should get, to allow the two of you to buy and sell property together, mess up each other's life insurance, and all those other "business" things that the government regulates. You need to get one; but if you want to know about what it does to you, or for you, you need to talk to a lawyer or an accountant.

2. The marriage SACRAMENTS belong to the church, and the SACRAMENT OF MARRIAGE in our church, which you agree to observe, is something the government doesn't control. They can't send you to jail if you violate a sacrament, but OUR CHURCH takes the SACRAMENT of marriage very seriously.

In other words, there's no reason to define a "Civil Marriage License" differently than a "License for Civil Union," because the Marriage License is ONLY a license for "Civil Union" until/unless you participate in the sacrament(s) of your own religion.

Historically, marriage was a "church thing." If you wanted to be "married" you talked to the priest or other appropriate "minister," followed the rules of the church, and the "marriage" was recorded in church records. "Civil Marriage" is a relatively recent invention in many places, and you get a "license to be married" in order to reveal to the rest of the people that you follow "married rules" on the acquiring, owning, and disposing of property.

In simplest form, the CIVIL MARRIAGE is an agreement to grant each other permanent and complete "power of attorney" in matters of secular law, so that property acquired by one is owned jointly by both, and any legal obligation assumed by one is owed by both. Either may make decisions for the other, in any matter affecting life, death or property. Of course, as in anything "legal" the simple becomes extremely complex in practice; but ALL MARRIAGE LICENSES are ONLY a license to form a CIVIL UNION. The "law" does not (at least should not) impose any requirement to observe or not observe religious sacraments, to have or not have sex, to produce or not to produce children. The law is intended to regulate property, so that the rest of the world knows how to deal with the "couple acting as one."

To enact a law prohibiting any persons "of a particular kind" from engaging in one kind of civil contract is exactly like the same prohibition for any other kind of contract. While I'm sure that many now agitating for a prohibition against "marriage" of "gays" would find it satisfying, I don't believe that prohibiting "gays" from being a principal in any "Class X Corporation" or "Regulation Y Partnership" would stand as not discriminatory, and the action licensed by the (civil) marriage license is, legally, no different than any other form of civil association.

Any person who has legal standing to make a contract (i.e. who is a person) and who meets the statutory requirements for a given kind of contract (e.g. not a felon, drunk, judged insane, etc.) should be able to make any kind of contract recognized by secular law. In all jurisdictions I know, any (heterosexual) couple can appear before a designated public official, and license a CIVIL MARRIAGE, have that marriage affirmed before an appropriate, usually designated, CIVIL WITNESS and be "legally" married. The church is not involved. (The limitation that only a "heterosexual couple" may form a civil marriage seems irrational, but so is a lot of other state law; and similarly "irrational" restrictions are fairly common.)

A church that choses to do so may restrict who is permitted to receive the ministering of any of their own sacraments and/or rituals, including the sacrament of a "church" marriage. A church may refuse to recognize as "married," for purposes of their own, persons married under civil law until their own sacrmental rituals are performed and the appropriate vows exchanged. Historically, many churches have demanded a "ritual marriage" before accepting a "civil marriage." Some churches, similarly, refuse to recognize a civil dissolution of a marriage under nearly any circumstance. That's something entirely separate, and the law shouldn't care.

A church that demands the intervention of civil law to enforce their sacraments is a failed church, and invites civil intervention in ALL their sacraments. (Isn't "confession" a self-incrimination prohibited by the US Constitution, and isn't therefore the refusal to administer "holy communion" to one who hasn't been to "confession" an unacceptable "discrimination" and shouldn't the "minister" who dispenses ingestibles be subject to state regulation of sanitation and product purity, and be licensed? How many "license fees" can we collect here? How much meddling is invited?)

A person who insists that the "government" must enforce his/her "articles of faith" has very little true faith. For most of the faiths with which I'm familiar, insisting that "all marriages are sacred" implies little knowledge of what one's own faith requires in order that a marriage be "blessed," and/or an appalling lack of comprehension of what's going on in the "real world."

For those who just "don't like ***," I can be more sympathetic. The world is full of people who are stupid and irrational, and who do things I find annoying, foolish, dangerous, and otherwise objectionable; but they are people who have legal standing in my community, and I will grant to them, and defend for them, their right to be stupid and irrational – even to disagree with me, as long as they don't try to force me be like them by advocating laws that prevent me from being stupid and irrational and perhaps even annoying according to my own preferences. (I find over-amped music quite annoying, but enjoy playing my mandolin badly; although I've been told "there ought to be a law…")

Inherent in the agitation for new laws is the foolish belief that passing a law will make something "not happen." The only thing a law can do is define "what it costs to do it." Attempting to "pass a law" to prevent a common behavior that does not substantially threaten the community is for the small-minded. I see no substantial damage to society from permitting people to form, and to have legally (secularly) acknowledged, their own personal associations, even though they may apply different values than mine in their choice of partners. I see great damage to my community in the imposing of "sacredness" in any matter of secular/civil law.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:16 PM

I agree with you, DougR. But I go further. As someone said WAY up top - Blackcatter?- why not have civil union for everyone who wishes to partner up and then those who want to go further have a marriage ceremony performed in their church or mosque or synagogue. Keep the government out of marriage. Make civil union the standard for taxes, health insurance and property issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: DougR
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

Marriage to me means between a man and a woman. Jeri may well be right, I may feel that way because it is traditional. It has worked for most folks for many years, though, and I see no logical reason to change it.

I favor civil unions for people of the same sex who wish to live together and qualify for the same benifits as married folks have.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:06 AM

That's right. They should.

By the way, freda, there are plenty of things that don't affect me which are still significant issues to me, I can assure you. However, the gay marriage controversy just doesn't interest me much.

Still, I keep dropping in on this thread anyway... :-)

And here's something ironical. It is my opinion that the people who most oppose gay marriage are in fact totally unaffected in any material or substantial sense by gay people getting married! Yet they care greatly about this issue. In fact, they are emotionally obsessed with it.

The last thing in the world they are willing to do, it seems, is live and let live.

People who want to force everyone else to be like them are a curse upon the World.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:41 AM

because people should have equal rights to benefits in any society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:36 AM

Why not just make a will, and leave marriage to us heterosexuals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:34 AM

Like anything else, its a non issue for people who it doesnt effect.

Scenario: Alan and George have lived together in their mansion in Double Bay for thirty years. George dies.

Alan is beside himself, meanwhile, George's siblings, who disowned George years ago because he is gay, decide they want the property. They take Alan to court, argue that he was only a tenant and no longer has rights to the property. the judge who is homophobic agrees, house goes to George's homophobic siblings.

Thats why gay people want marriage, not because theyre all starry eyed, particularly, but because they want to make a legal commitrment to each other, and look after each other the way other people do. in Insurance, property, and other similar areas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:09 AM

I thought it was Willie Grand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:44 AM

Pufta's in Coronation Street?? Who is the thespian playing the character jOhn? Is it Larry Grayson?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:51 AM

Ebbie - Well, I guess this issue pushes your emotional buttons more than it does mine, maybe. :-) It's virtually a non-issue to me as long as people live and let live. It's sad that some don't.

And I don't agree in the least with your analogy about the uses of the mouth. Having sex with the mouth does not hurt the body. Having sex with anal penetration does hurt the body over a period of time...sometimes very seriously. It is natural to use the mouth to nuzzle, touch, taste, and express affection, as is seen with both animals and human beings very commonly. It is not natural to penetrate anuses with penises, in my opinion, but I do not suggest depriving people of the legal right to do so if they wish to (in private). That's their business, not mine or anyone else's.

Like I said, live and let live.

I am bothered by the more shrill advocates on both sides of this political football (and that's exactly what it is at this point). I'd say they deserve each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 09:34 PM

That too, Guest. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:57 PM

Well spoken Ebbie, with words coming out of your fingers, not your mouth. And I thought anuses were for rubbing on roller-coaster seats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:48 PM

"If I was gay, I wouldn't get in everybody's face about it all the time...and I wouldn't hide it either. I'd just relax about it and be who I was and leave other people alone about it. And that is exactly what I would prefer the religious right to do as well...leave other people alone." Little Hawk

What other process is there, Little Hawk? The change from having no legal rights to full equality under the law tends to create a chaotic period. It took a long time and a great deal of agitation before women in the US (and longer in England) won the simple right to vote. When one reads the history, it comes through very clearly that many people - probably mostly men, but also many women- became tired of the subject and wished it would just go away. It took more than 70 years of in-your-face-activism before the passage of the 19th Amendment, and I'm sure that there was a LOT of shouting and ill will on both sides both before and after those 70 years.

Does nayone today feel the need to argue the merits of it?

And, Little Hawk, you say:
"...quite possibly partly because of natural health reasons (anal intercourse is hard on the body in various ways, and is clearly not a very natural process for a body to undergo...the anus is there to eject waste matter, and that is its sole bodily purpose)." (What about the mouth, Little Hawk? Its only non-arguable function is for the intake of food and the harbo(u)r for speech.)

I would say that accepted and agreed upon uses of anything are not necessarily the final answers. It has sometimes occurred to me that some things- beauty, for instance - are what we say they are. It is the way we are wired. A slightly different wiring might produce the opinion that glistening wet black mud teeming with tiny critters has more aesthetic appeal than a limpid blue sky with puffy white clouds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:09 PM

I agree, i demand the right to be married to a dwarf rabbit [and a goat].
Best wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:55 PM

Wait! I thought of something. I dislike gay marriage because by definition it excludes heterosexuals, asexuals, and dwarf rabbits!

That's discrimination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

If it weren't for threads like this one...and the media in general...I doubt that I would ever even think about gay marriage. I neither like nor dislike it. I don't care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 05:10 PM

If yer not f#cking me, I don't care who yer f#cking

But I might ask to watch...

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: LilyFestre
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM

Personally, I am for gay marriage. If two consenting adults love one another and want to get married.....they should be able to! I think it's hard enough to find love in this world and when you find it and it suits you and isn't hurting anyone else, GO FOR IT!

Love is love, period, end of story.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:44 PM

bloody pufters, there taking over!
theyve even got one in Coronation Street now!
is nothing sacred?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:53 AM

I've often thought it absurd that there are no regulations covering who can actually PRODUCE children! Seriously, considering what a responsibility it is (or should be) one would think some kind of perparation would be in order.

Heck! We have to pass a test to get a driver's license, is raising children easier???

But of course that isn't going to happen, is it? People would scream bloody murder if they thought their natural rights were being tampered with.

Yet the adoption procedure (even for ANIMALS) is stringent on many counts. It has to be shown that the family is monetarily secure and psychologically sound.

That indeed makes much sense to me, but-isn't there a real Irony about this?



Ellenpoly, thank you. It's a relief to see that someone on this thread really understands where my concerns were coming from. I mustn't have done such a bad job trying to express myself after all.

Bagpuss is right - it's not adoptive parents (gay or straight) who present the greatest risk to kids. At least they are publicly screened!

It's the people who put their own urges and wants ahead of the best interests of any kids they produce. The ones who'd use a baby as a meal ticket, or to boost their self-esteem. Those children get even less protection than the abandoned animals at the Humane Society. Everyone around them "minds their own business" until the worst happens - and by then the damage has already been done.

That's how the baby I knew died. Her landlady - a friend of mine - had suspected that she wasn't being cared for properly and had tried, tactfully, to make helpful suggestions and offer assistance a couple times. It's child-mother just ignored her. And while my friend was humming and hawing, struggling with the social "norm" of MYOB when it comes to other people and their families, getting up the nerve to call the Children's Aid - the baby died.

Oh, by the way I was looking through the journals I kept at the time, and that baby was not 4 but 11 weeks old when it died. I remembered it as younger, it was so very tiny - and I just wanted to clear that up.

A couple weeks ago, my 20yr old friend had introduced me to two of his teenage "street-sisters", and told me later they'd offered themselves as surrogate moms (for a fee of course) whenever he and his partner wanted a kid. He said he had a couple other street buddies back in Toronto willing to do the same thing.

Old-fashioned bigoted codger that I am, I found this idea more than a little worrisome, and started posting on this thread a couple days later. And now I see that if I want to help, the best I can do is just to be there for him, no matter what happens - NOT to argue (uselessly) about whether or not he or others in his situation should be "allowed" to carry out plans like these.

...But maybe the friggin' thread could be used to address the friggin' subject. It matters. It's not so easy. Heterosexual marriage and family is up there with the ancient verities, as Faulkner called them. It's a big friggin' deal, after all, isn't it? Here it is knocking at the door. It's not hunger, granted, but it is what it is. The Norm--it's not easy and natural, people work very hard to uphold it, as a value in their lives, and here come very different terms. It matters.

... But I don't come down so hard that I blame people, too much, for reservations.


Fred, you are RIGHT ON. Thanks for being so understanding and posting what you did.

On the other hand, I think the trouble with calling people bigots, is... I don't know, aren't we? to some extent, most of us? A bit? No?

Yes I think we are, Fred. It's called 'cultural conditioning'. Sociologists call it personal bias, and take painstaking measures to compensate for it in their research methods. It's a natural part of what every human being is, how every human being learns.

Oh, and if you're serious about doubting if gays really do engage in anal intercourse, I suggest you simply type the word "gays" in your Google search-bar, and click on "Images".


daylia

PS I'm just gonna hafta look up a Kathy Bates movie now! And hey, maybe adding little rhetorical questions at the end of sentences is a Canadian trait, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:41 AM

So, Fred, you actually start shortly after you finish, right? LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:08 AM

I always post that way. I figure the last thing I'll want to say, work back, and only start posting when I'm done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 09:31 PM

I've always read history books that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 08:00 PM

!od yeht dna ,did I ,seY


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 07:05 PM

Anybody else besides me read the threads in reverse chronological order? Surprisingly, the conversational arguments still make sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 01:24 AM

I've looked up people on National Public Radio for this reason. None of them are correct. I KNOW Terri Gross is blonde, long blonde, found her haircut early in life and stuck with it. Also, plays guitar, because of how she laughed at mention of a Mel Bay book.
But only Sylvia Pojoli looks exactly like she sounds.

Sometimes it's fun to listen to songs in languages you don't speak and decide what they're about.

And gays should have important and basic civil rights under law, whether it makes us think of butt-fucking or not. Has nobody ever tried it?

   From way back, I'm still trying to think of who these vociferous self-important gay spokespeople are, the ones who compare to over-the-top agenda-ists from other minority groups. I heard the point, got it, thought I got it, but, um, I don't know who or where they are. Ellen Degeneres--is she like the gay Don King, or what? The most in-your-face person I can think of isn't entirely gay, but just dabbling. Who are we talking about? Where? What?

What I don't like about gay marriage: Barbie doll meets Gore Vidal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:39 PM

No wife. Short haired black cat. I am off to bed assured of my sanity. Thankyou LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:32 PM

Wow. That's spooky. Does his wife have curly, dark hair?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:06 PM

LH you are right with the age. And I hope I have an agreeable expression! But you have uncannily described my next door neighbour.we could be onto something here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:00 PM

Yeah. It's quite intriguing, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM

Aha I think that's ok then. I hear them but don't see them, you see them but don't hear them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:56 PM

For instance, GUEST, I am picturing you as a man, maybe mid-thirties, average height and figure, fairly short sandy-colored hair and horn-rimmed glasses, fair skin, very conventional appearance and clothing, agreeable expression.

You look like an office clerk or an accountant or something.

Am I way off?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:51 PM

. . . an LOTS of voices from the console, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:49 PM

Well, here's what happens. I don't hear their voice...I get their words mentally, that's all, and a feeling about their personality...BUT...I usually see a face and general appearance! After awhile I get so curious that I try and find out what they really look like (assuming there are photos of them on the site)...and they almost NEVER look anything like the mental picture I had of them.

When I found out what Spaw actually looks like, for instance, it was such a shock that I just sort of wandered around for several days bumping into walls and babbling incoherently. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:45 PM

Thanks that's consoling :)


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