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BS: Why you don't like gay marriage

John P 10 Aug 04 - 10:40 AM
Matt_R 10 Aug 04 - 10:56 AM
Stilly River Sage 10 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM
DonMeixner 10 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM
Jeri 10 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM
*daylia* 10 Aug 04 - 11:35 AM
kendall 10 Aug 04 - 11:44 AM
Jeri 10 Aug 04 - 11:51 AM
Ellenpoly 10 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Dr. Quelch 10 Aug 04 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,MMario 10 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM
Amos 10 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM
Stilly River Sage 10 Aug 04 - 12:15 PM
GUEST 10 Aug 04 - 12:21 PM
Blackcatter 10 Aug 04 - 12:37 PM
wysiwyg 10 Aug 04 - 12:42 PM
Joe Offer 10 Aug 04 - 12:47 PM
M.Ted 10 Aug 04 - 01:21 PM
Little Hawk 10 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM
beardedbruce 10 Aug 04 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Stone Cold 10 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM
Peace 10 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM
Little Hawk 10 Aug 04 - 01:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM
Amos 10 Aug 04 - 01:54 PM
Nerd 10 Aug 04 - 01:55 PM
beardedbruce 10 Aug 04 - 01:56 PM
Wesley S 10 Aug 04 - 01:57 PM
dunkel_esel 10 Aug 04 - 01:58 PM
beardedbruce 10 Aug 04 - 02:04 PM
Stilly River Sage 10 Aug 04 - 02:08 PM
Bill D 10 Aug 04 - 02:20 PM
Nerd 10 Aug 04 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Stone Cold 10 Aug 04 - 02:24 PM
dick greenhaus 10 Aug 04 - 02:33 PM
Blackcatter 10 Aug 04 - 03:46 PM
Peace 10 Aug 04 - 04:03 PM
*daylia* 10 Aug 04 - 04:06 PM
Cluin 10 Aug 04 - 04:19 PM
Nerd 10 Aug 04 - 04:19 PM
*daylia* 10 Aug 04 - 04:31 PM
Blackcatter 10 Aug 04 - 04:33 PM
Cluin 10 Aug 04 - 04:36 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Aug 04 - 01:30 AM
Nerd 11 Aug 04 - 01:46 AM
Nerd 11 Aug 04 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Dr. Quelch 11 Aug 04 - 05:37 AM
*daylia* 11 Aug 04 - 06:39 AM
Wolfgang 11 Aug 04 - 06:55 AM
*daylia* 11 Aug 04 - 07:09 AM
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Subject: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:40 AM

First off, the desire to ban gay marriage is not due to any biblical injunction against homosexuality. Let's get that cleared up right off the bat. Anyone who says they support anti-gay laws because the bible says homosexuality is a sin is a real hypocrite. If this were the real reason, we'd have proposals for laws requiring us all to keep kosher, requiring adulterers to be taken outisde of the city and stoned, and banning the wearing of clothes made from poly-cotton blends. Until you are willing to really legislate what the bible says, don't claim that as a reason for opposing gay marriage. How about a law requiring us all to love our enemies as ourselves? A constitutional amendment requiring us to turn the other cheek?

Second, it doesn't do anything at all to anyone else's marriage. All of this "debasing the institution of marriage" noise only says to me that your marriage is so weak that someone else getting married can have some negative effect on it. Why don't you strengthen your own marriage instead of outlawing someone else's? Being made to feel insecure in your marriage is not really a valid reason for banning gay marriage.

But what about the kids, you ask. I recently saw a quote from a bigotted anti-gay "Christian" minister. He claimed that the fact that there was no evidence that being brought up in a gay household harmed the kids just meant that the subject hadn't been studied enough yet. He was so sure of the answer that would be found, if only we looked harder. Not very logical. I wonder why he isn't putting his energy toward outlawing alcholics, drug addicts, and violent criminals having children. We have plenty of evidence that being beaten as child, or exposed to drugs in the womb, or being ignored, has very harmful effects on children, yet no one is proposing constitutional amendments banning any of these. So I am forced to conclude that this isn't the real reason you don't like gay marriage, either.

What about the whole pervert aspect of it? Did you know that according to many definitions of pervert, you are one yourself? This unhealthy interest in what other people are doing in bed is really kind of sick. Doesn't it embarrass you to flaunt your voyeuristic nature so publicly?

So this is what it comes down to: You don't like gay marriage because of personal revulsion. Somewhere deep inside you have enough sense to know that you can't get something outlawed in America because it turns you off. So you come up with all these other religious, traditional, public safety sort of reasons. The problem is, these other reasons don't stand up to any scrutiny. So why not just give it up and admit that there are people around who are different than you and who gross you out, and that in America part of the deal is that you have to put up with them?

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Matt_R
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:56 AM

WELL SAID.

All these people and their anti-gay marriage crap makes me want to kick some gonads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

You don't exactly cut to the chase with this argument, John, and the way you've phrased the title and fend off the various conservative and religious debates in order to reach your point, you come off looking like you're trolling.

The title "Why you don't like gay marriage" suggests that only bigots will join in the various arguments you want to debunk, or it could read like you're assuming that Mudcatters oppose gay marriage. Some do, some don't. I don't oppose it, I understand that sex is far more than male/female missionary position intercourse, and frankly, wonder at the desire to start such a thread. Not enough excitement in your life lately?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM

I think it is simpler than that, John. I think if you use the term marriage you are allowing groups of people to access benefits that they otherwise wouldn't have access to. The answer as far as the government is concerned isn't morals it's money.   They have the added benefit a small group moralistic Christian in name and not practice homophobes out their who agree with the doctrine. But the bottom line is money.

Of course thats an opinion.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM

I think the whole 'sanctity of marriage' defense is just people holding onto the way things are, simply because it's the way things are. If people think marriages don't count for as much if 'certain people' are allowed to legally marry, the problem is that they need some sort of official recognition to feel special. They ought to feel that way no matter what other people do or say.

As to "This unhealthy interest in what other people are doing in bed is really kind of sick." - I've been saying that for YEARS now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:35 AM

While I have no interest in what other people do or don't do in bed (I have enough trouble keeping up with what goes on in my own believe me ;-), I do not yet feel comfortable with the idea of two males or two females playing "mommy and daddy" for the next generation.

It does seem to me that since nature requires a 50% contribution from each gender for human beings to produce offspring at all (using natural means of course), perhaps that same 50% contribution from each gender just might be the ideal environment in which raise that offspring healthfully?

Maybe this is just outdated, close-minded and undoubtedly perverted conditioning talking, though.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: kendall
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:44 AM

Liviticus is not the only place to find homophobia. Try "Romans". Good old Paul, the mysoginist condemns lesbians too.

These "Christian" homophobes say thay hate the "sin" not the sinner? well, that makes as much sense as saying it's ok to have blue eyes as long as you don't look at anything!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:51 AM

Then a single parent would be even worse than a gay couple because at least with same-sex parents, children get to see an example of how adults who love each other should treat one another. There are usually role models around in either sex though, and I do believe role models of different genders and sexual orientation are important, and I believe available role models (and possibly even bad examples!) should include others in addition to parents.

Unfortunately, kids grow up in abusive or otherwise disfunctional relationships, and I think having parents of the same sex who treat each other with love is rather better than having a mommy and daddy who scream all the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM

Daylia, if you look at other animal groups, of which I'm sure you'll agree we are a part-though there is usually the male/female initial combination to produce a baby, from that time on, the dynamics are as often to raise the baby as a part of the herd, or pack, or school, or tribe, or whatever. I'd say there's much more sense in doing this, as there are more personalities to contribute their love, knowledge, and protection to the baby, as well as to each other.

I think personally that children raised in the "nuclear family", whether it be two women or two men, or a woman and man, are taking on a heavy load not really meant for just a couple. We'd all be infinitely healthier back in tribal groups.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Dr. Quelch
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:04 PM

The Collins New English Dictionary describes marriage as " the legal union of husband and wife, -----, the religious or civil ceremony by which two people of the opposite sex become man and wife". Let us keep the word marriage as meaning just that. Should folks of whatever proclivities wish to live together then perhaps the term partnership would be more appropriate. They can quite easily enter into any binding agreements regarding their incomes, pension, properties, etc. as may any other individuals.
Regarding the raising of other peoples children or orphans, this presents a completely different set of questions and much consideration should be given before giving answers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM

it isn't like the "nuclear family" has any true history back beyond a couple of generations - in most cultures the men had little to nothing to do with child rearing - *IF* their culture had pair bonding - there were many cultures in which the males were pretty much casual visitors. Even in euro-centric cultures - in the lower classes the men were pretty much out of the picture - either working; away (soldier, sailor, fisherman - even farmers); in upper classes the children were raised by surrogates.

There were a few cultures in which the MEN did do a lot of child-rearing activities - normally only with male children post breast-feeding stage - but for the most part throughout history children have been raised by women - usually GROUPS of women - frequently but not always groups of related women.

In quite a few cultures the father of a child wasn't even considered to be that close a relative - the maternal uncles were consided to be far more important.

Marriage as an institution was instituted and continues pretty much as a legal means of determining inheritance and rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM

Let us keep the word marriage as meaning just that.

Why should we adhere to a definition that was written in a period when the presence of homosexuality was a tabu subject, never discussed in proper society, anymore than wife-beating or race hatred was -- yet all three existed perfectly hidden in plain sight.

How about we define it as we intend it to be?

I have heard of many, many, tragic instances wherein heterosexual parents have ruined the lives of their children through physical abuse, emotional abuse, and even sexual abuse. I don't, off hand, recall any tales of homosexual parents introducing such aberrations inot their adopted childrens' lives. I'd be very curious to know if any such data exists.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:15 PM

Oh, by all means let the Collins New English Dictionary have the deciding vote on this--not. It isn't a simply matter of a civil ceremony and a few legal documents to get equal access as a spouse gets. If the IRS doesn't recognise it, or the Social Security administration, or your various insurance companies, you don't get any number of spouse benefits or tax breaks or inheritance tax considerations, etc. You don't get to be the next of kin in many important life and/or death events.

Kerry's remark was appropriate (paraphrased), that the federal government shouldn't be concerned about what happens in the bedroom, but in the kitchen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:21 PM

My uncle is an artist who's very much aware of obscure things like "form." His argument against gay marriage is that it contradicts a basic "form" in Nature: that is, in the human species the union of male and female for the purpose of producing offspring.

Methinks the only real truths in the universe are the oxymoronic statements. In this instance, impermanence is the only permanent "form" in Nature, if indeed impermanence can be considered a "form."


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:37 PM

It is simple.

1) Religious institutions should chose who they want to marry.

2) The government should get out the "marriage" business and change it completely to a legal contract structure that ANYONE can enter into. In the case of business we have: sole proprietorships, parnerships and corporations. Allow similar structures for personal relationships. This would be irrespective of ANYTHING other than the willingness for all parties to enter into the contract.

The reasons for a contract are numerous. Many of them are automatically covered by the legal definition of marriage but anyone should be able to get the same things. For instance, my best friend tried to commit suicide and was put in intensive care (she's ok now). To get in to see her, I had to lie and tell the hospital I was her brother. That's just stupid.

If you have a long-term roommate (no sex, etc.) and you have great health insurance, why shouldn't you be able to cover your roommate as well? Why is the degree of intamacy that important?

If you live in a communal home with more than 2 adults (whether there is sex going on or not) and share your finances and possessions, why shouldn't you be able to have a contract that portects everyone in the various situations that might arise?

The structure of marriage laws have to be thrown out soon. They are completely pointless. Why anyone who follows a religion would support legal marriage is beyond me.

For those churches who would choose to keep their marriage only between man and women, how would other churches opening it up to same sex lessen the sanctity of the other? Every religion choses to baptize, consecrate, commune, bless, annoint, bar mitzvah, and/or initiate whom the wish, when they wish and how they wish. Nothing that other churches do lessen the sanctity of another churches activities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:42 PM

Poor old Paul-- misinterpreted equally by the religious and the irrelegious, for their own interests. The theology is much more complicated than people of either side are generally willing to engage in. For example, people accusing him seldom quote his passages preaching responsibility for one's own sins as opposed to the widepread human record of hypocrisy.

But then that's the Bible for you--persistently interesting. And too easily simplified unless one is actually talking about the details of one's own spiritual life.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:47 PM

I think most progressive Christians would say that the authors of Leviticus and the letters attributed to Paul were products of their times - times when homosexuality and eating shellfish were considered abominable. We no longer consider shellfish an abomination, so maybe we shouldn't be so rigid in our thinking about homosexuality. On the other hand, it doesn't seem necessary to condemn all of Scripture because of some statements that no longer apply; or to condemn all Judeo-Christian religious groups because they have some members who are bigoted.

It's been frustrating to be a Catholic recently, though. It seems the fundamentalists are getting the upper hand. Mother Angelica and her minions took control of most American Catholic television and radio years ago so conservative Catholics have a powerful voice. If you've listened to talk radio lately, you might get the impression that it's not only Catholic media that has been taken over by the right-wingers. I think conservatives are still a minority in the Catholic Church - but they have a very loud voice.

I think history is going to make it difficult for most churches to bless homosexual unions, but I don't think I've heard many credible church leaders make strong statements against civil marriage for homosexuals. It will take the churches a few generations to develop reasonable theological and ethical thinking about homosexuality - but you will find few religious moderates or liberals who will make anti-homosexual statements in this day and age. I know very few Catholic priests who will speak against homosexuality - although I have to say I know fewer who will speak strongly in favor of it.

I think it's the far right that provides the strength of the movement against homosexual marriage. Please don't plame all of Judeo-Christian religion for it.

As for me, I don't think my marriage is threatened one iota by the thought of homosexuals getting married. I don't understand the logic in that contention at all.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:21 PM

I like the idea of gay marriage--but I don't think it should be required--


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM

I almost never even think about gay marriage. I don't particularly care why other people decide to marry one another. That's up to them. If they want to marry, fine with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:36 PM

Blackcatter:

I agree.

There should be NO use of "marriage" by the government, since it appears to be based on a narrow religious definition. ANY grouping of adults should be able to enter into a liason, for whatever reason, and obtain the same benefits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Stone Cold
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM

God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

God made Adam and Eve, not Madam and Eve.

And that's the bottom line, cause Stone Cold says so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM

Why is it anyone's business?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:44 PM

If you want to produce a child, you need Adam and Eve. If you simply want to have an intimate relationship, Adam and Steve, Adam and Eve, or Madam and Eve can all work just fine.

Depends on what your objective is, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM

Religious institutions should choose who they want to marry.

Pedantic note. Religious instututions don't marry people, nor do state officials. People getting married marry each other, the role of the priest or minister or registrar or whatever at a marriage cermony is as a kind of official witness and master of ceremonies. Their involvement is in the last resort peripheral.

It does seem to me that getting all fussed up about the word "marriage" is a mistake. Rather as if it were suggested that banjos should be called guitars, perhaps to stop people making unkind wisecracks. Banjos and guitars have a lot in common, and some things not in common, and it's quite useful to have separate words to refer to them. Both can make great music together or apart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:54 PM

Stone Cold:

Does the expression "dogmatic authoritarian narrow-minded jerk" ring a bell?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:55 PM

The only problem I see with beardedbruce and blackcatter's idea is with things like health insurance benefits. If you have a grouping of seven people as a contractual household unit, putting six of them on the insurance of the one who has a job might not be viable (it would also be abused). But this is a detail that can be fine-tuned; in principle I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:56 PM

Thank you, Amos.

8-{E


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:57 PM

I saw two cartoons that amused me.

One had a man saying that the idea of gay marrage made a mockery of all three of his marrages.

The other pictured a couple sitting on a couch wathing TV and the man says "Gay marrage is making a mockery of our marrage, sweetheart" and the woman replies - " I agree Daddie ".


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: dunkel_esel
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:58 PM

Is that poem not a bit childish?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:04 PM

As Heinlein stated in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", the institution of marriage serves one purpose: To provide for the nurturing and care of offspring. He points out that line marriages, clans, and other groupings were merely means to that end, in a difficult ( social) environment.

If you want to worry about the 7 members of a group abusing the insurance, what about giving that single parent a discount? Only fair...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:08 PM

Insurance companies bend over backwards trying to keep as many people as possible from getting benefits while collecting as much money as possible from workers and their employers. As long as they have megabucks there is going to be a lot of backroom deal making that will keep groups like this from becoming a voluntary family.

Stone Cold, since humans created god in his/hers/its own image, and tell many creation stories about him/her/it all over the world, AND religion is a glorified way of managing and maintaining social order and positions, humans are fully entitled to change the rules as they go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:20 PM

"If you want to produce a child, you need Adam and Eve"
well, technically, maybe not any more.

the real trouble is, many people DEFINE marriage by what their church says, and every couple has to deal with that if they want to be 'married' in a church. But many couples are married every day in civil ceremonies, and THAT is the issue at the basis of the discussion. Should states have the right to determine what combinations of people are allowed to form family groups for legal and tax purposes and to share property...etc.
The simple answer is NO....as long as they obey the rules that other family groups follow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:21 PM

Actually, God created Adam and Lilith, then killed Lilith off-stage, THEN created Eve. Support for this Jewish folk belief is found in Genesis.

in Genesis 1:27, on the Sixth Day,

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Then, in Genesis 2:20-2:22,

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


So, uh, what happened to the first woman?

Then, of course, when Cain left his homeland for the land of Nod he found MORE people, obviously not his brothers and sisters since he marries one of them, so God must have made them too.

So God might well have made Steve as well as Adam!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Stone Cold
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:24 PM

Well Amos, it's like this, my dogma ate my karma.

And that's the bottom line, cause Stone Cold says so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:33 PM

If anyone's worried about the sanctity of marriage, why not worry about divorce? Marriage today is an either/both mess of religious ceremony and state recognition. Makes more sense to split religious ceremonies--which should be up to the particular religious organization concerned-- and civil ceremonies--which should be available to any couple who wants one.
As I recall, the only Federal marriage law concerns plural marriages, and affects (primarily) Mormons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:46 PM

Amos - you have a point, but as was said by SRS, the Insurance companies make us their own rules and the companies who buy their product choose what they will. Disney was one of the first Fortune 500 companies to add "partner" benefits to their pack at disney World. This was don't through the pressure of their work force which has a significant gay population.

Of course the argumetn about benfits is moot if the U.S. ever jjoins the rest of the civilized world and passes Universal Health Care.


Have you all heard the recent issue about the non-Muslim woman who worked for a company that was owned by Muslims who was fired for eating pork in the lunch room? What do you think about that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:03 PM

If that's all of the story, I think she has poop for brains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:06 PM

Perhaps the powers that be would do well to listen to what the kids are saying about gay marriages and parenting. Here's a sobering "inside view" from one Canadian teen on a popular internet forum:

The only thing that I am really dicey on is Gay adoption, I think a lot more studies need to be done on that before it's allowed. (By studies I mean the efftects it has on the children, not only on their sexuality, but on the trauma and stress of school yard and social judgement of them because they have gay parents) Personally, I think in a day in age where teenagers are still being killed because they are gay (which is very very sad, i agree) we shouldn't be placing helpless children in such situations. Wait until it's a more widely accepted phenomena.

It's sobering because it's true-to-life in it's realism. Gay-bashing - and worse - continues to be typical behavior among Canadian schoolboys beginning around grade 4. If anything, it's become worse over the last decade or so.

I did some on-line research looking for case studies comparing children of straight vs gay marriages. The topic is so new that virtually none of the studies I could find have been completed yet.

It's interesting to note that while the Canadian Psychiatric Association supported the gov't in it's legalization of gay marriages, claiming that "studies have shown no differences between the mental health or sexual orientation of children" raised by gay parents and those raised by heterosexual ones, I've yet to find one of these alleged "studies" available for public review.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:19 PM

I didn't like my gay marriage because I'm not gay. In hindsight, the whole thing was a crazy mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:19 PM

Well, daylia,

I for one am not going to make policy based on a teen internet forum. One could use the same logic to argue that, since racism and anti-semitism are also problems, interracial couples, or even blacks and Jews themselves, should not be allowed to adopt kids or even to have their own kids, as it would expose innocent children to intolerance. That's also true-to-life in its realism, but it's also unacceptable and downright ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:31 PM

The kid made a very valid point because she and her peers have to live - and die - with it every day, whether people like yourself "make policy" on it or not Nerd.

One big difference between Jews, blacks and interracial couples etc and homosexuals is that nature renders gays and lesbians barren and sterile, due to their sexual orientation.

Maybe there's a not-so-hidden message in that?

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:33 PM

As for Gay adoption it has been happening quietly and unkown for many, many years. I have a friend who has been a foster parent for 10 years. The local foster program "sort-of" knows about it, but the subject isn't discussed since everyone involved agrees the law is silly.


Ther are gay people everywhere. To assume that none of the people who have adopted kids in the past 100 were/are gay is also silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:36 PM

He wasn't even gay either. What the hell were we thinking?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:30 AM

Wait until it's a more widely accepted phenomena.

That would make nay-sayers very happy, but of course, if everyone waits, it will never become widely accepted, now will it? This isn't preaching patience, it's a backdoor to intolerance.

nature renders gays and lesbians barren and sterile, due to their sexual orientation.

Bollocks! You're not talking about breeding horses and donkeys to get mules, you're talking about people who are generally as intact reproductively as the rest of the population. The absence of sperm or egg in a partnership is not seen as a great obstacle to parenthood, and to suggest the visitation of a bogus "wrath of god" barrenness on same-sex couples is disingenuous.

Children do best when raised by people who love them and who treat them fairly and kindly, who hug and handle them generously, who are frank when answering serious questions, who know when to say "no" and who know when "yes" is the answer to learning freedom and self-assurance. If children are fortunate enough to have both a mother and father (and/or an extended family) in which this happens, they are lucky. But they are no less lucky to find that kind of love and attention from any combination of adults and siblings and a natural or constructed extended family.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:46 AM

The kid made a very valid point because she and her peers have to live - and die - with it every day, whether people like yourself "make policy" on it or not Nerd.

First of all, I also made a very valid point. I also have to live--and die--with it every day. As a jew, should I avoid having children because they will be exposed to intolerance? Maybe they'll get beaten up! Jeez, they could be killed even!

Second, your claim that they have to live and die with it is exaggerated. Just because the kid refers to "a day in age where teenagers are still being killed because they are gay"doesn't mean he or she personally knows anyone like this. They could have just heard about that movie with Hillary Swank.

Finally, what strikes me as funny about the "very valid" point made this teen is that it obviously comes from such a sheltered, middle-class, whitebread perspective. Anyone else in the world understands the certainty that one day their kids will be harrassed and possibly even beaten up as an unpleasant fact of life, not something that can be avoided by not rocking the boat--or by not letting themselves have kids.

By the way, I have cousins who are a lesbian couple. Their solution for children was to choose a close friend and each have a child with him. So both these lesbians were able to have normal pregnancies. I think this proves that daylia's claim that they are barren and sterile is also ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 02:38 AM

More kids from daylia's link:

Hmmm, I'm totally for gay marriages. I don't understand how it would "change" our concept of marriage forever. I mean the two people that will get marry will still think it is a sacred ritual and will still honour the ritual like a man and a woman. I think gay people should be treated equally and that includes having the right to get marry like hetrosexual people do.

I'm for gay marriages. I think people should be allowed to marry, whether it's opposites or the same sex. Although, in my school, my religion teacher always points out his views how he's very against gay marriage. He says a bunch of **** about how God wouldn't want gay marriages happening. Well, God put people on the earth to resemble him, so he obviously doesn't mind gay people. haha

not allowing gay marriages doesn't change the definition of marriage, it changes the definition of equality. people should have equal rights no matter what their sexual orientation is. besides, sexual orientation is personal. just because we see sex everywhere in the media, doesn't mean it has become everyone's business. as for allowing gay marriages in churches, that should be up to the individual faith. but civil unions should be for everyone. didn't we separate church and state a long time ago?

doesn't having tv shows like my big fat obnoxious fiancee ruin how important and sacred marriage is??


And then there are idiots like this one:

   I think allowing gay marriages does change the definition of 'marriage'....it's even stated in the constitution as a union of a man and a woman.

This dork doesn't even know what everyone else is talking about, and thinks the proposed amendment is already part of the constitution.

And this genius, with whom I agree, but still:

I believe there is a God. Why would he call being gay a sin if he made them that way? That's like me telling a person wearing a GAP sweater that GAP sucks while I am wearing one as well.

Anyway, only that one kid on the whole discussion mentioned anything about kids of gay couples being in danger. All the rest were standard pro and con for social and religious reasons. And for a while it devolves into an argument about whether Bush is, in fact, an idiot.

So, judging from daylia's link

1) the safety of the poor kids adopted by Gay couples is not a major anxiety of Canadian teens (thank God!)

and

2) Canadian teens provide no particular insight into this question that we haven't seen in the ongoing debates on this issue.

but

3) I bet nobody here would have thought of that Gap analogy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Dr. Quelch
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:37 AM

When the scriptures were written( no doubt reflectiong the attitudes of the times) it would appear that homosexual relationships were frowned upon but now we are liberated we celebrate these unions with festivals in most of the countries of the free world. I understand that unions between humans and animals were also considered taboo in those early days. Is it possible that our free thinking, unrestrained attitudes will now see such unions as socially and morally acceptable and perhaps be celebrated on reality t.v. shows?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:39 AM

Well Nerd and SRS, here's two credible articles supporting the kid's claim above. No, she did not see it on Hillary Swank - she and her peers see it up close and personal every day in the schoolyard. I belabour the point only because I spent years of my life supervising the playgrounds at my kid's schools, and I know she's speaking the truth.

Youth and Violence

Health and Welfare Canada

Here's a quote from each.

Violence is pervasive in society. Not only do many young people live with violence in intimate relationships, but all young people live with an abundance of media images of violence - of situations where people abuse power and control.

The social construct of gender in our society perpetuates the opportunity for abuse of power.

Attitudes toward sexuality are not always positive and celebratory.
There are many "isms" operating within organizations - racism, sexism and heterosexism.

Young males who are victims are often alienated.

Attitudes towards young people who are gay, lesbian or bisexual often alienate them from existing services and help. "Gay, lesbian or bisexual young people who are on the street are not served by the agencies for at-risk youth because often these agencies are homophobic. The shelters, the drug programs and the child welfare system are not safe for these kids.


And from the Youth and Violence article;

Only a small minority of youth commit violent crimes. Contrary to popular opinion, most violent young people most often victimize young friends or acquaintances, not adults or strangers ... The most common victims of youth violence are: peers, including girlfriends, boyfriends and other young people; family members, including siblings and parents; and members of ethnocultural groups or sexual minorities (homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals).

For those who wish to argue that homosexuality does not render people barren and sterile, I'd like to make it clear that I was referring to NATURAL, not artificial means of producing offspring. Nature, politically incorrect as "She" notoriously is, does indeed render gays and lesbians barren and sterile, at least on this planet.

And I say again ... perhaps there is a not-so-hidden message in this?

I'd also like to make it clear that I, for one, do not equate the laws of nature with the "wrath of god", but if it pleases some of you to do so, then so be it.

And now, one last attempt to empathize with my teenage friend above and maybe soften some scientific hearts and open some politically correct (but perhaps a tad clouded) neural passageways ....

... I ask you sincerely, would you personally want to be adopted by a homosexual couple as a helpless babe, to face a lifetime of pervasive social ostracism and potential violence? As for me, NOT ON YOUR (WHATEVERSEXUAL) LIFE !!!

Again, I think the teenager I quoted above is right. If we waited for a decade or so until people are at least more comfortable with the idea of "uncloseted" gays, and homosexual marriage is old news, these children would be a lot less at risk.

But hey, perhaps there's a great line-up of Souls just waiting to be incarnated as the children of homosexuals in this oh-so-kindly-and-enlightened age (NOT!), in order to balance their karma or something.
In every cloud there's a ....

oh forget it, and thanks for listening to my musings ...

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:55 AM

The particular word used is not the basic issue, the basic issue is whether homosexual couples should have the same rights and duties (inheritance, acknowledgement as mother/father by school and other institutions, duty to support each other in case of financial hardship etc.) as heterosexual have in most societies.

I see no convincing reason why they should not have. Neither the existence of mankind nor the coherence of society is in any meaningful way threatened by non-heterosexual pair bonding.

My personal limit is that the two both know perfectly what they are about to promise. That excludes for me partnerships in which at least one partner is below a to be specified age or not human.

I have no opinion yet towards partnerships involving more than two adults.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:09 AM

Wolfgang, I agree. Homosexual couples deserve to be treated exactly the same as heterosexual couples by insurance companies, social service agencies, the courts etc.

My only concern in this is the health, safety and welfare of innocent children. At present, children are simple being used as pawns, as experimental subjects in this potentially deadly game of "political correctness". And children, being the most vulnerable and powerless (and precious) members of society, deserve better.

At least in my book.

daylia


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