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BS: Why you don't like gay marriage

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Subject: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:40 AM

First off, the desire to ban gay marriage is not due to any biblical injunction against homosexuality. Let's get that cleared up right off the bat. Anyone who says they support anti-gay laws because the bible says homosexuality is a sin is a real hypocrite. If this were the real reason, we'd have proposals for laws requiring us all to keep kosher, requiring adulterers to be taken outisde of the city and stoned, and banning the wearing of clothes made from poly-cotton blends. Until you are willing to really legislate what the bible says, don't claim that as a reason for opposing gay marriage. How about a law requiring us all to love our enemies as ourselves? A constitutional amendment requiring us to turn the other cheek?

Second, it doesn't do anything at all to anyone else's marriage. All of this "debasing the institution of marriage" noise only says to me that your marriage is so weak that someone else getting married can have some negative effect on it. Why don't you strengthen your own marriage instead of outlawing someone else's? Being made to feel insecure in your marriage is not really a valid reason for banning gay marriage.

But what about the kids, you ask. I recently saw a quote from a bigotted anti-gay "Christian" minister. He claimed that the fact that there was no evidence that being brought up in a gay household harmed the kids just meant that the subject hadn't been studied enough yet. He was so sure of the answer that would be found, if only we looked harder. Not very logical. I wonder why he isn't putting his energy toward outlawing alcholics, drug addicts, and violent criminals having children. We have plenty of evidence that being beaten as child, or exposed to drugs in the womb, or being ignored, has very harmful effects on children, yet no one is proposing constitutional amendments banning any of these. So I am forced to conclude that this isn't the real reason you don't like gay marriage, either.

What about the whole pervert aspect of it? Did you know that according to many definitions of pervert, you are one yourself? This unhealthy interest in what other people are doing in bed is really kind of sick. Doesn't it embarrass you to flaunt your voyeuristic nature so publicly?

So this is what it comes down to: You don't like gay marriage because of personal revulsion. Somewhere deep inside you have enough sense to know that you can't get something outlawed in America because it turns you off. So you come up with all these other religious, traditional, public safety sort of reasons. The problem is, these other reasons don't stand up to any scrutiny. So why not just give it up and admit that there are people around who are different than you and who gross you out, and that in America part of the deal is that you have to put up with them?

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Matt_R
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:56 AM

WELL SAID.

All these people and their anti-gay marriage crap makes me want to kick some gonads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

You don't exactly cut to the chase with this argument, John, and the way you've phrased the title and fend off the various conservative and religious debates in order to reach your point, you come off looking like you're trolling.

The title "Why you don't like gay marriage" suggests that only bigots will join in the various arguments you want to debunk, or it could read like you're assuming that Mudcatters oppose gay marriage. Some do, some don't. I don't oppose it, I understand that sex is far more than male/female missionary position intercourse, and frankly, wonder at the desire to start such a thread. Not enough excitement in your life lately?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM

I think it is simpler than that, John. I think if you use the term marriage you are allowing groups of people to access benefits that they otherwise wouldn't have access to. The answer as far as the government is concerned isn't morals it's money.   They have the added benefit a small group moralistic Christian in name and not practice homophobes out their who agree with the doctrine. But the bottom line is money.

Of course thats an opinion.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM

I think the whole 'sanctity of marriage' defense is just people holding onto the way things are, simply because it's the way things are. If people think marriages don't count for as much if 'certain people' are allowed to legally marry, the problem is that they need some sort of official recognition to feel special. They ought to feel that way no matter what other people do or say.

As to "This unhealthy interest in what other people are doing in bed is really kind of sick." - I've been saying that for YEARS now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:35 AM

While I have no interest in what other people do or don't do in bed (I have enough trouble keeping up with what goes on in my own believe me ;-), I do not yet feel comfortable with the idea of two males or two females playing "mommy and daddy" for the next generation.

It does seem to me that since nature requires a 50% contribution from each gender for human beings to produce offspring at all (using natural means of course), perhaps that same 50% contribution from each gender just might be the ideal environment in which raise that offspring healthfully?

Maybe this is just outdated, close-minded and undoubtedly perverted conditioning talking, though.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: kendall
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:44 AM

Liviticus is not the only place to find homophobia. Try "Romans". Good old Paul, the mysoginist condemns lesbians too.

These "Christian" homophobes say thay hate the "sin" not the sinner? well, that makes as much sense as saying it's ok to have blue eyes as long as you don't look at anything!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:51 AM

Then a single parent would be even worse than a gay couple because at least with same-sex parents, children get to see an example of how adults who love each other should treat one another. There are usually role models around in either sex though, and I do believe role models of different genders and sexual orientation are important, and I believe available role models (and possibly even bad examples!) should include others in addition to parents.

Unfortunately, kids grow up in abusive or otherwise disfunctional relationships, and I think having parents of the same sex who treat each other with love is rather better than having a mommy and daddy who scream all the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM

Daylia, if you look at other animal groups, of which I'm sure you'll agree we are a part-though there is usually the male/female initial combination to produce a baby, from that time on, the dynamics are as often to raise the baby as a part of the herd, or pack, or school, or tribe, or whatever. I'd say there's much more sense in doing this, as there are more personalities to contribute their love, knowledge, and protection to the baby, as well as to each other.

I think personally that children raised in the "nuclear family", whether it be two women or two men, or a woman and man, are taking on a heavy load not really meant for just a couple. We'd all be infinitely healthier back in tribal groups.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Dr. Quelch
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:04 PM

The Collins New English Dictionary describes marriage as " the legal union of husband and wife, -----, the religious or civil ceremony by which two people of the opposite sex become man and wife". Let us keep the word marriage as meaning just that. Should folks of whatever proclivities wish to live together then perhaps the term partnership would be more appropriate. They can quite easily enter into any binding agreements regarding their incomes, pension, properties, etc. as may any other individuals.
Regarding the raising of other peoples children or orphans, this presents a completely different set of questions and much consideration should be given before giving answers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM

it isn't like the "nuclear family" has any true history back beyond a couple of generations - in most cultures the men had little to nothing to do with child rearing - *IF* their culture had pair bonding - there were many cultures in which the males were pretty much casual visitors. Even in euro-centric cultures - in the lower classes the men were pretty much out of the picture - either working; away (soldier, sailor, fisherman - even farmers); in upper classes the children were raised by surrogates.

There were a few cultures in which the MEN did do a lot of child-rearing activities - normally only with male children post breast-feeding stage - but for the most part throughout history children have been raised by women - usually GROUPS of women - frequently but not always groups of related women.

In quite a few cultures the father of a child wasn't even considered to be that close a relative - the maternal uncles were consided to be far more important.

Marriage as an institution was instituted and continues pretty much as a legal means of determining inheritance and rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM

Let us keep the word marriage as meaning just that.

Why should we adhere to a definition that was written in a period when the presence of homosexuality was a tabu subject, never discussed in proper society, anymore than wife-beating or race hatred was -- yet all three existed perfectly hidden in plain sight.

How about we define it as we intend it to be?

I have heard of many, many, tragic instances wherein heterosexual parents have ruined the lives of their children through physical abuse, emotional abuse, and even sexual abuse. I don't, off hand, recall any tales of homosexual parents introducing such aberrations inot their adopted childrens' lives. I'd be very curious to know if any such data exists.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:15 PM

Oh, by all means let the Collins New English Dictionary have the deciding vote on this--not. It isn't a simply matter of a civil ceremony and a few legal documents to get equal access as a spouse gets. If the IRS doesn't recognise it, or the Social Security administration, or your various insurance companies, you don't get any number of spouse benefits or tax breaks or inheritance tax considerations, etc. You don't get to be the next of kin in many important life and/or death events.

Kerry's remark was appropriate (paraphrased), that the federal government shouldn't be concerned about what happens in the bedroom, but in the kitchen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:21 PM

My uncle is an artist who's very much aware of obscure things like "form." His argument against gay marriage is that it contradicts a basic "form" in Nature: that is, in the human species the union of male and female for the purpose of producing offspring.

Methinks the only real truths in the universe are the oxymoronic statements. In this instance, impermanence is the only permanent "form" in Nature, if indeed impermanence can be considered a "form."


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:37 PM

It is simple.

1) Religious institutions should chose who they want to marry.

2) The government should get out the "marriage" business and change it completely to a legal contract structure that ANYONE can enter into. In the case of business we have: sole proprietorships, parnerships and corporations. Allow similar structures for personal relationships. This would be irrespective of ANYTHING other than the willingness for all parties to enter into the contract.

The reasons for a contract are numerous. Many of them are automatically covered by the legal definition of marriage but anyone should be able to get the same things. For instance, my best friend tried to commit suicide and was put in intensive care (she's ok now). To get in to see her, I had to lie and tell the hospital I was her brother. That's just stupid.

If you have a long-term roommate (no sex, etc.) and you have great health insurance, why shouldn't you be able to cover your roommate as well? Why is the degree of intamacy that important?

If you live in a communal home with more than 2 adults (whether there is sex going on or not) and share your finances and possessions, why shouldn't you be able to have a contract that portects everyone in the various situations that might arise?

The structure of marriage laws have to be thrown out soon. They are completely pointless. Why anyone who follows a religion would support legal marriage is beyond me.

For those churches who would choose to keep their marriage only between man and women, how would other churches opening it up to same sex lessen the sanctity of the other? Every religion choses to baptize, consecrate, commune, bless, annoint, bar mitzvah, and/or initiate whom the wish, when they wish and how they wish. Nothing that other churches do lessen the sanctity of another churches activities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:42 PM

Poor old Paul-- misinterpreted equally by the religious and the irrelegious, for their own interests. The theology is much more complicated than people of either side are generally willing to engage in. For example, people accusing him seldom quote his passages preaching responsibility for one's own sins as opposed to the widepread human record of hypocrisy.

But then that's the Bible for you--persistently interesting. And too easily simplified unless one is actually talking about the details of one's own spiritual life.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:47 PM

I think most progressive Christians would say that the authors of Leviticus and the letters attributed to Paul were products of their times - times when homosexuality and eating shellfish were considered abominable. We no longer consider shellfish an abomination, so maybe we shouldn't be so rigid in our thinking about homosexuality. On the other hand, it doesn't seem necessary to condemn all of Scripture because of some statements that no longer apply; or to condemn all Judeo-Christian religious groups because they have some members who are bigoted.

It's been frustrating to be a Catholic recently, though. It seems the fundamentalists are getting the upper hand. Mother Angelica and her minions took control of most American Catholic television and radio years ago so conservative Catholics have a powerful voice. If you've listened to talk radio lately, you might get the impression that it's not only Catholic media that has been taken over by the right-wingers. I think conservatives are still a minority in the Catholic Church - but they have a very loud voice.

I think history is going to make it difficult for most churches to bless homosexual unions, but I don't think I've heard many credible church leaders make strong statements against civil marriage for homosexuals. It will take the churches a few generations to develop reasonable theological and ethical thinking about homosexuality - but you will find few religious moderates or liberals who will make anti-homosexual statements in this day and age. I know very few Catholic priests who will speak against homosexuality - although I have to say I know fewer who will speak strongly in favor of it.

I think it's the far right that provides the strength of the movement against homosexual marriage. Please don't plame all of Judeo-Christian religion for it.

As for me, I don't think my marriage is threatened one iota by the thought of homosexuals getting married. I don't understand the logic in that contention at all.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:21 PM

I like the idea of gay marriage--but I don't think it should be required--


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM

I almost never even think about gay marriage. I don't particularly care why other people decide to marry one another. That's up to them. If they want to marry, fine with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:36 PM

Blackcatter:

I agree.

There should be NO use of "marriage" by the government, since it appears to be based on a narrow religious definition. ANY grouping of adults should be able to enter into a liason, for whatever reason, and obtain the same benefits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Stone Cold
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM

God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

God made Adam and Eve, not Madam and Eve.

And that's the bottom line, cause Stone Cold says so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM

Why is it anyone's business?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:44 PM

If you want to produce a child, you need Adam and Eve. If you simply want to have an intimate relationship, Adam and Steve, Adam and Eve, or Madam and Eve can all work just fine.

Depends on what your objective is, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM

Religious institutions should choose who they want to marry.

Pedantic note. Religious instututions don't marry people, nor do state officials. People getting married marry each other, the role of the priest or minister or registrar or whatever at a marriage cermony is as a kind of official witness and master of ceremonies. Their involvement is in the last resort peripheral.

It does seem to me that getting all fussed up about the word "marriage" is a mistake. Rather as if it were suggested that banjos should be called guitars, perhaps to stop people making unkind wisecracks. Banjos and guitars have a lot in common, and some things not in common, and it's quite useful to have separate words to refer to them. Both can make great music together or apart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:54 PM

Stone Cold:

Does the expression "dogmatic authoritarian narrow-minded jerk" ring a bell?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:55 PM

The only problem I see with beardedbruce and blackcatter's idea is with things like health insurance benefits. If you have a grouping of seven people as a contractual household unit, putting six of them on the insurance of the one who has a job might not be viable (it would also be abused). But this is a detail that can be fine-tuned; in principle I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:56 PM

Thank you, Amos.

8-{E


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:57 PM

I saw two cartoons that amused me.

One had a man saying that the idea of gay marrage made a mockery of all three of his marrages.

The other pictured a couple sitting on a couch wathing TV and the man says "Gay marrage is making a mockery of our marrage, sweetheart" and the woman replies - " I agree Daddie ".


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: dunkel_esel
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 01:58 PM

Is that poem not a bit childish?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:04 PM

As Heinlein stated in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", the institution of marriage serves one purpose: To provide for the nurturing and care of offspring. He points out that line marriages, clans, and other groupings were merely means to that end, in a difficult ( social) environment.

If you want to worry about the 7 members of a group abusing the insurance, what about giving that single parent a discount? Only fair...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:08 PM

Insurance companies bend over backwards trying to keep as many people as possible from getting benefits while collecting as much money as possible from workers and their employers. As long as they have megabucks there is going to be a lot of backroom deal making that will keep groups like this from becoming a voluntary family.

Stone Cold, since humans created god in his/hers/its own image, and tell many creation stories about him/her/it all over the world, AND religion is a glorified way of managing and maintaining social order and positions, humans are fully entitled to change the rules as they go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:20 PM

"If you want to produce a child, you need Adam and Eve"
well, technically, maybe not any more.

the real trouble is, many people DEFINE marriage by what their church says, and every couple has to deal with that if they want to be 'married' in a church. But many couples are married every day in civil ceremonies, and THAT is the issue at the basis of the discussion. Should states have the right to determine what combinations of people are allowed to form family groups for legal and tax purposes and to share property...etc.
The simple answer is NO....as long as they obey the rules that other family groups follow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:21 PM

Actually, God created Adam and Lilith, then killed Lilith off-stage, THEN created Eve. Support for this Jewish folk belief is found in Genesis.

in Genesis 1:27, on the Sixth Day,

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Then, in Genesis 2:20-2:22,

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


So, uh, what happened to the first woman?

Then, of course, when Cain left his homeland for the land of Nod he found MORE people, obviously not his brothers and sisters since he marries one of them, so God must have made them too.

So God might well have made Steve as well as Adam!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Stone Cold
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:24 PM

Well Amos, it's like this, my dogma ate my karma.

And that's the bottom line, cause Stone Cold says so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:33 PM

If anyone's worried about the sanctity of marriage, why not worry about divorce? Marriage today is an either/both mess of religious ceremony and state recognition. Makes more sense to split religious ceremonies--which should be up to the particular religious organization concerned-- and civil ceremonies--which should be available to any couple who wants one.
As I recall, the only Federal marriage law concerns plural marriages, and affects (primarily) Mormons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:46 PM

Amos - you have a point, but as was said by SRS, the Insurance companies make us their own rules and the companies who buy their product choose what they will. Disney was one of the first Fortune 500 companies to add "partner" benefits to their pack at disney World. This was don't through the pressure of their work force which has a significant gay population.

Of course the argumetn about benfits is moot if the U.S. ever jjoins the rest of the civilized world and passes Universal Health Care.


Have you all heard the recent issue about the non-Muslim woman who worked for a company that was owned by Muslims who was fired for eating pork in the lunch room? What do you think about that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:03 PM

If that's all of the story, I think she has poop for brains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:06 PM

Perhaps the powers that be would do well to listen to what the kids are saying about gay marriages and parenting. Here's a sobering "inside view" from one Canadian teen on a popular internet forum:

The only thing that I am really dicey on is Gay adoption, I think a lot more studies need to be done on that before it's allowed. (By studies I mean the efftects it has on the children, not only on their sexuality, but on the trauma and stress of school yard and social judgement of them because they have gay parents) Personally, I think in a day in age where teenagers are still being killed because they are gay (which is very very sad, i agree) we shouldn't be placing helpless children in such situations. Wait until it's a more widely accepted phenomena.

It's sobering because it's true-to-life in it's realism. Gay-bashing - and worse - continues to be typical behavior among Canadian schoolboys beginning around grade 4. If anything, it's become worse over the last decade or so.

I did some on-line research looking for case studies comparing children of straight vs gay marriages. The topic is so new that virtually none of the studies I could find have been completed yet.

It's interesting to note that while the Canadian Psychiatric Association supported the gov't in it's legalization of gay marriages, claiming that "studies have shown no differences between the mental health or sexual orientation of children" raised by gay parents and those raised by heterosexual ones, I've yet to find one of these alleged "studies" available for public review.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:19 PM

I didn't like my gay marriage because I'm not gay. In hindsight, the whole thing was a crazy mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:19 PM

Well, daylia,

I for one am not going to make policy based on a teen internet forum. One could use the same logic to argue that, since racism and anti-semitism are also problems, interracial couples, or even blacks and Jews themselves, should not be allowed to adopt kids or even to have their own kids, as it would expose innocent children to intolerance. That's also true-to-life in its realism, but it's also unacceptable and downright ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:31 PM

The kid made a very valid point because she and her peers have to live - and die - with it every day, whether people like yourself "make policy" on it or not Nerd.

One big difference between Jews, blacks and interracial couples etc and homosexuals is that nature renders gays and lesbians barren and sterile, due to their sexual orientation.

Maybe there's a not-so-hidden message in that?

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:33 PM

As for Gay adoption it has been happening quietly and unkown for many, many years. I have a friend who has been a foster parent for 10 years. The local foster program "sort-of" knows about it, but the subject isn't discussed since everyone involved agrees the law is silly.


Ther are gay people everywhere. To assume that none of the people who have adopted kids in the past 100 were/are gay is also silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:36 PM

He wasn't even gay either. What the hell were we thinking?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:30 AM

Wait until it's a more widely accepted phenomena.

That would make nay-sayers very happy, but of course, if everyone waits, it will never become widely accepted, now will it? This isn't preaching patience, it's a backdoor to intolerance.

nature renders gays and lesbians barren and sterile, due to their sexual orientation.

Bollocks! You're not talking about breeding horses and donkeys to get mules, you're talking about people who are generally as intact reproductively as the rest of the population. The absence of sperm or egg in a partnership is not seen as a great obstacle to parenthood, and to suggest the visitation of a bogus "wrath of god" barrenness on same-sex couples is disingenuous.

Children do best when raised by people who love them and who treat them fairly and kindly, who hug and handle them generously, who are frank when answering serious questions, who know when to say "no" and who know when "yes" is the answer to learning freedom and self-assurance. If children are fortunate enough to have both a mother and father (and/or an extended family) in which this happens, they are lucky. But they are no less lucky to find that kind of love and attention from any combination of adults and siblings and a natural or constructed extended family.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:46 AM

The kid made a very valid point because she and her peers have to live - and die - with it every day, whether people like yourself "make policy" on it or not Nerd.

First of all, I also made a very valid point. I also have to live--and die--with it every day. As a jew, should I avoid having children because they will be exposed to intolerance? Maybe they'll get beaten up! Jeez, they could be killed even!

Second, your claim that they have to live and die with it is exaggerated. Just because the kid refers to "a day in age where teenagers are still being killed because they are gay"doesn't mean he or she personally knows anyone like this. They could have just heard about that movie with Hillary Swank.

Finally, what strikes me as funny about the "very valid" point made this teen is that it obviously comes from such a sheltered, middle-class, whitebread perspective. Anyone else in the world understands the certainty that one day their kids will be harrassed and possibly even beaten up as an unpleasant fact of life, not something that can be avoided by not rocking the boat--or by not letting themselves have kids.

By the way, I have cousins who are a lesbian couple. Their solution for children was to choose a close friend and each have a child with him. So both these lesbians were able to have normal pregnancies. I think this proves that daylia's claim that they are barren and sterile is also ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 02:38 AM

More kids from daylia's link:

Hmmm, I'm totally for gay marriages. I don't understand how it would "change" our concept of marriage forever. I mean the two people that will get marry will still think it is a sacred ritual and will still honour the ritual like a man and a woman. I think gay people should be treated equally and that includes having the right to get marry like hetrosexual people do.

I'm for gay marriages. I think people should be allowed to marry, whether it's opposites or the same sex. Although, in my school, my religion teacher always points out his views how he's very against gay marriage. He says a bunch of **** about how God wouldn't want gay marriages happening. Well, God put people on the earth to resemble him, so he obviously doesn't mind gay people. haha

not allowing gay marriages doesn't change the definition of marriage, it changes the definition of equality. people should have equal rights no matter what their sexual orientation is. besides, sexual orientation is personal. just because we see sex everywhere in the media, doesn't mean it has become everyone's business. as for allowing gay marriages in churches, that should be up to the individual faith. but civil unions should be for everyone. didn't we separate church and state a long time ago?

doesn't having tv shows like my big fat obnoxious fiancee ruin how important and sacred marriage is??


And then there are idiots like this one:

   I think allowing gay marriages does change the definition of 'marriage'....it's even stated in the constitution as a union of a man and a woman.

This dork doesn't even know what everyone else is talking about, and thinks the proposed amendment is already part of the constitution.

And this genius, with whom I agree, but still:

I believe there is a God. Why would he call being gay a sin if he made them that way? That's like me telling a person wearing a GAP sweater that GAP sucks while I am wearing one as well.

Anyway, only that one kid on the whole discussion mentioned anything about kids of gay couples being in danger. All the rest were standard pro and con for social and religious reasons. And for a while it devolves into an argument about whether Bush is, in fact, an idiot.

So, judging from daylia's link

1) the safety of the poor kids adopted by Gay couples is not a major anxiety of Canadian teens (thank God!)

and

2) Canadian teens provide no particular insight into this question that we haven't seen in the ongoing debates on this issue.

but

3) I bet nobody here would have thought of that Gap analogy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Dr. Quelch
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:37 AM

When the scriptures were written( no doubt reflectiong the attitudes of the times) it would appear that homosexual relationships were frowned upon but now we are liberated we celebrate these unions with festivals in most of the countries of the free world. I understand that unions between humans and animals were also considered taboo in those early days. Is it possible that our free thinking, unrestrained attitudes will now see such unions as socially and morally acceptable and perhaps be celebrated on reality t.v. shows?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:39 AM

Well Nerd and SRS, here's two credible articles supporting the kid's claim above. No, she did not see it on Hillary Swank - she and her peers see it up close and personal every day in the schoolyard. I belabour the point only because I spent years of my life supervising the playgrounds at my kid's schools, and I know she's speaking the truth.

Youth and Violence

Health and Welfare Canada

Here's a quote from each.

Violence is pervasive in society. Not only do many young people live with violence in intimate relationships, but all young people live with an abundance of media images of violence - of situations where people abuse power and control.

The social construct of gender in our society perpetuates the opportunity for abuse of power.

Attitudes toward sexuality are not always positive and celebratory.
There are many "isms" operating within organizations - racism, sexism and heterosexism.

Young males who are victims are often alienated.

Attitudes towards young people who are gay, lesbian or bisexual often alienate them from existing services and help. "Gay, lesbian or bisexual young people who are on the street are not served by the agencies for at-risk youth because often these agencies are homophobic. The shelters, the drug programs and the child welfare system are not safe for these kids.


And from the Youth and Violence article;

Only a small minority of youth commit violent crimes. Contrary to popular opinion, most violent young people most often victimize young friends or acquaintances, not adults or strangers ... The most common victims of youth violence are: peers, including girlfriends, boyfriends and other young people; family members, including siblings and parents; and members of ethnocultural groups or sexual minorities (homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals).

For those who wish to argue that homosexuality does not render people barren and sterile, I'd like to make it clear that I was referring to NATURAL, not artificial means of producing offspring. Nature, politically incorrect as "She" notoriously is, does indeed render gays and lesbians barren and sterile, at least on this planet.

And I say again ... perhaps there is a not-so-hidden message in this?

I'd also like to make it clear that I, for one, do not equate the laws of nature with the "wrath of god", but if it pleases some of you to do so, then so be it.

And now, one last attempt to empathize with my teenage friend above and maybe soften some scientific hearts and open some politically correct (but perhaps a tad clouded) neural passageways ....

... I ask you sincerely, would you personally want to be adopted by a homosexual couple as a helpless babe, to face a lifetime of pervasive social ostracism and potential violence? As for me, NOT ON YOUR (WHATEVERSEXUAL) LIFE !!!

Again, I think the teenager I quoted above is right. If we waited for a decade or so until people are at least more comfortable with the idea of "uncloseted" gays, and homosexual marriage is old news, these children would be a lot less at risk.

But hey, perhaps there's a great line-up of Souls just waiting to be incarnated as the children of homosexuals in this oh-so-kindly-and-enlightened age (NOT!), in order to balance their karma or something.
In every cloud there's a ....

oh forget it, and thanks for listening to my musings ...

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:55 AM

The particular word used is not the basic issue, the basic issue is whether homosexual couples should have the same rights and duties (inheritance, acknowledgement as mother/father by school and other institutions, duty to support each other in case of financial hardship etc.) as heterosexual have in most societies.

I see no convincing reason why they should not have. Neither the existence of mankind nor the coherence of society is in any meaningful way threatened by non-heterosexual pair bonding.

My personal limit is that the two both know perfectly what they are about to promise. That excludes for me partnerships in which at least one partner is below a to be specified age or not human.

I have no opinion yet towards partnerships involving more than two adults.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:09 AM

Wolfgang, I agree. Homosexual couples deserve to be treated exactly the same as heterosexual couples by insurance companies, social service agencies, the courts etc.

My only concern in this is the health, safety and welfare of innocent children. At present, children are simple being used as pawns, as experimental subjects in this potentially deadly game of "political correctness". And children, being the most vulnerable and powerless (and precious) members of society, deserve better.

At least in my book.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:46 AM

To the homophobes: EVERYONE NEEDS A DOG TO KICK


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 08:58 AM

The idea that because a gay couple can't make a baby, they are therefore incapable of nurturing one is just beyond belief, daylia.

Of course there will be problems in the schoolyard, and if not over something like this, then over something else, like who has the coolest clothes, or who's fat, or who's a nerd, etc. If you want to talk about nature, it's certainly in the nature of adolescents to give each other a hard time.

The thought that one's sexual preferences has anything whatsoever to do with one's capacity to be a loving, supportive parent is so off the mark.

When oh when will we just accept each other as fellow humans, all capable and sometimes sadly incapable of raising healthy youngsters?

I have quite a few gay friends now who are raising kids, and they have just as many-but no more-problems as any other parents.

The kids are coping quite well, as long as they don't have to worry about well-meaning folks like you.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:34 AM

Ellenpoly, over the years I have had many personal dealings (through volunteer work with streetkids and in the schools) with homosexual and bisexual kids and their parents, as well as homosexual and bisexual adults. I'm sorry to say that very few of these are what I consider to be either physically, socially or emotionally "healthy" or "coping quite well".

In Canada, a whopping 39% of teenage males who commit suicide are either homosexual or bisexual, according to stats I was reading yesterday.

I'm glad the people you know are doing so much better, and here's hoping it continues to be so!

If people don't care for having their behaviors or choices constrained by the "laws" of nature, they can certainly use the latest scientific technology to bypass those "laws" these days. However, there's very often an unforeseen and heavy price to be paid for that ... and as usual, it's the weakest and most powerless members of society who pay that price.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:37 AM

Daylia,
You've been making lots of arguments about protecting kids by keeping gay marriage illegal. What you haven't done is responded to the comments I made about that in my very first post:

I wonder why he isn't putting his energy toward outlawing alcholics, drug addicts, and violent criminals having children. We have plenty of evidence that being beaten as child, or exposed to drugs in the womb, or being ignored, has very harmful effects on children, yet no one is proposing constitutional amendments banning any of these. So I am forced to conclude that this isn't the real reason you don't like gay marriage, either.

Please do so, explaining why you are not proposing laws banning marriage, procreation, and adoption by known classes of child abusers. If you aren't willing to do so, re-read the last sentence in the quote above.

Thanks,
John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:40 AM

brucie,
Thanks for bringing up the argument I forgot include at the beginning of this discussion. It's perhaps the most important:

It's none of your business!!

JP


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:53 AM

Wow -- now I'm being told that I'm "making lots of arguments about protecting kids by keeping gay marriage illegal"

When did I ever say "gay marriage should be kept illegal", John?

It doesn't really matter, anyway. My point of view doesn't seem to be making anyone's day here, nothing I've read above has convinced me that a change of mind is either wise or necessary, and I've spent way too much time on this already today.

So carry on, folks ... I've said my piece, may my time and efforts benefit someone at least a little, and thanks for the discussion.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:57 AM

I have know several couples who are lesbians, who are in a long term relationship, and who are raising children together. In each case those parents are highly committed and have done a very good job with their kids.

Yes, a large portion of teenagers who commit suicide are either homosexual or bisexual. Often that's because the thought of facing a lifetime of bigotry is daunting, because they can't cope with the reaction of peers (humilation, ostracism) and because its all too much. When are we going to have a world where people can grow up feeling that they don't have to fit an image provided by someone else. I made sure my children knew when they reached their early teens that if they were gay or bisexual, it wouldn't affect the way that I love them in any way.

As for following nature, some species of ape are bisexual.

http://www.primates.com/bonobos/bonobo-info.html

http://www.primates.com/chimps/chimpanzee-info.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:06 AM

Same gender marriage is different than gay marriage. I want to reserve the distinction, for an option most people haven't yet contemplated.
Gay marriage is Bill and Debra are man and wife, yet both are gay. I used to um, not oppose this, but find it silly. Sometimes it is.

Gay marriage has been going on, it's a legal option for gays to marry opposite gender gays, have kids, etc., and they do. Nobody cares much about the bedroom, it would seem, as long as inter-gender marriage is at least parodied.

The new option in same gender marriage is that heterosexuals might decide there are benefits to being married, a la Lennon and McCartney, (who later divorced). One can imagine party bachelor hetero dudes in pairs now, best-friend girly-women in sets--perhaps in part as a force-field to protect them from the dangers of cross-gender marriage.

It may erode traditional relationships, in that people may begin to realise they can form committed relationships to anyone they want, without any permission at all. The American norm of huddled alienated clusters, fearful and mistrustful of everyone else, might begin to degrade. No wonder conservative fascists are concerned. They are right to oppose it--so far as preserving their way of life is potentially threatened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:20 AM

No wonder conservative fascists are concerned.

Just so -- you have identified the group correctly. But the truth is that their excuses are groundless -- they are really concerned that if gay marriages are an open issue they might be drawn into one!!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:07 AM

Thankfully not a UK problem. Social Services recognise the value in people, regardless of gender, and same sex adoptions are welcomed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 12:21 PM

People who oppose same-sex unions but also support opposite-sex unions feel threatened by that. It's a matter of fear, not a matter of reason.

It was JK Galbraith who coined the phrase, "The Age of Uncertainty" (and wrote a book by that name), and indeed we are living in that. Situations become conservative by their very nature, which is why we have a 'majority rule' mentality. Accepting new ideas is difficult for most people, maybe a spinoff from our desire to survive as a species. Measure twice, cut once kinda thing. So, I understand people's reluctance to accept this kind of change. I think in time it will not matter, but I know it does matter a great deal to those who are subject to discrimination or hatred based on their choice of 'significant other'.

My personal take on it is that it's not my business. That's what it boils down to for me. I have homosexual friends and I know same-sex couples who do just fine raising kids. So, what's the problem?

IMHO

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 12:41 PM

I know daylia's not listening anymore, but

1) her subsequent examples had to do with children who are gay, not children whose parents are gay. Children (teens, I should say) who are gay often suffer because of confusion, because their crushes cannot be reciprocated or even expressed, because they are ostracized by friends who fear that they might be sexually interested, because their parents reject them, try to change them, or even throw them out, etc. This contribites to the high suicide rates among gay tens.

Adopted children of gay parents do not have these problems. They MAY have the same problems as racial minorities, religious minorities, linguistic minorities, the marginalized, etc. So again, why should racial minorities, religious minorities, linguistic minorities, the marginalized, etc., be allowed to have kids and expose them to possible ostracism? If you prevent the gays from doing it, why not prevent all these other groups, too?

Because racial discrimination is less acceptable than discrimination based on sexual orientation.

2) If a teen IS gay, having gay parents is helpful, not harmful, in resolving the other issues that gay teens face. So I wouldn't be surprised if gay children of gay parents are LESS prone to suicide.

3) By saying "she and her peers see it up close and personal every day in the schoolyard," daylia has to be confused. Why? Because what we were talking about was this quote: "in a day in age where teenagers are still being killed because they are gay (which is very very sad, i agree) we shouldn't be placing helpless children in such situations."

So, do these kids REALLY see gay children MURDERED every day? Of course they don't. In fact, daylia provided no evidence that the kid in question had any firsthand experience of violence against gay children at all.

4) daylia's quote from the Youth and Violence article supports my point. It was "The most common victims of youth violence are: peers, including girlfriends, boyfriends and other young people; family members, including siblings and parents; and members of ethnocultural groups or sexual minorities (homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals)." Once again, children of gay parents suffer the same risks as children of black parents. If black parents can take the risk, why can't gay parents?

5) daylia's point that gay people are "sterile and barren naturally" is still ridiculous. Gay people can have sex and become parents in the natural way if they wish. They just cannot do it with each other. We do not consider a single woman "barren" just because she can't produce a baby by herself. Why is a gay woman "barren" just because she can't produce a baby with her gay partner?

A single woman, or a gay woman, has every right to have sex and become pregnant and have a child out of wedlock. So why outlaw the adoption of children by gay parents, which in most cases is a better life than foster care or orphanages?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:28 PM

Why? Because the kinds of sex that don't involve male/female genital copulation scare a lot of conservative straight people, and when they picture any other kind of sex (which of course in their minds' eye they probably do visualise if they can figure out the positions), it scares the bejesus out of them. Could be they're afraid it could happen to them (or maybe they're afraid they'd like it. . . )

Condemning "forbidden fruit" is not an uncommon pastime for those who announce to the world that they are in posession of a patch of moral high ground. But it's an illusion, and the courts and the laws are slow to come around to recognizing that the playing field should be level.

Forbidden Fruit a flavor has
That lawful Orchards mocks --
How luscious lies within the Pod
The Pea that Duty locks

-----------Emily Dickenson


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM

According to the U.S. Census Bureau (2000), the number of unmarried couples living together increased 72% between 1990 and 2000. However, only 11% of cohabitating couples are same sex couples.

This isn't about gay lifestyle, it is about the waning power of the Anglo-American hegemony in US culture among heterosexuals. They are just using gay bashing to get the laws changed to legislate marriage as a condition of cohabitation, in order to deny financial benefits to single and unmarried people.

Try a little reading here at the Alternatives to Marriage Project's website. It is quite enlightening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:46 PM

As for Daylia's posts, it's simple. Intolerance should be worked on every day in every school. People are different in all sorts of ways, as Ellenpoly stated.

If you've been involved with school's and did noting to destroy intollerance, you are part of the problem.

Until we end the intollerance, anyone can become a victim. Even you Daylia. If someone picks on you, are you going to say your lifestyle is wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 02:39 PM

I don't think people form gay relationships with the express purpose in mind of producing chidren, do they? :-)

Some people in gay relationships evidently wish to raise children anyway. Okay, fine. Each individual case will go, I suppose, on its own merits. God knows, there are enough dysfunctional heterosexual relationships out there raising kids aren't there?

I have always considered homosexuality and lesbianism to be "outside the norm" (meaning...not the usual choice of the majority of people in most societies). That does not mean that I consider them bad or think that they should be persecuted or legally restricted in some way. It's a matter of personal choice.

After all, being a folk musician is outside the norm too these days...if you go by averages. I've been unusual all my life, and I like it. I can understand that gays like to be gay. Fine with me.

I do think, though, that there's a tremendously vocal special interest group pushing any and all gay-related issues in the media and courts these days, constantly trying to find another windmill to tilt against like Don Quixote...and it sometimes gets a bit ridiculous. Perhaps that is what daylia is reacting against. For the past week there has been a big brouhaha in my town about whether or not to have a "Gay Pride" week...and it has raised the usual furious debates and accusations...rather unnecessarily, in my opinion. Should we next have to decide whether or not to have an "East Indian Pride" week, and a "People who don't want to have children Pride" week, and a "Bearded Men's Pride" week, and a "Blonde Pride" week (to reassure those who have been hurt in the past by "blonde" jokes), and so on, and so on? Gimme a break...

There is, of course, an equally vocal and strident special interest group opposing and attacking gays at the same time.

Seems to me just maybe those two groups of people deserve each other. :-) It gives them both someone to hate.

As for me, I don't particularly care about it one way or another. As Bruce said, it's none of my business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:09 PM

I know a couple (two men) who live in California who have been together for well over thirty years. They aren't "married," but they might as well be. Their relationship is far more stable than a lot of male-female marriages I'm acquainted with. And they're what might be considered "pillars of the community." One teaches at a local university (often going around the country and abroad lecturing on his subject), and the other knows all there is to know about English royalty through history, and is an authority on the American Civil War. He tutors the kids of rich folks (including movie stars) who are having trouble in school. He charges plenty, but the kids learn. They are a stable, reliable couple: home-owners and tax payers.

I also know another couple (men—and they went through a marriage or "commitment" ceremony) who are active in the church I often attend. They're both attorneys, and one of them is on the church council. Everyone in the church knows their relationship and nobody cares; it's their business and nobody else's. In fact, the commitment ceremony was conducted in the church by the pastor. All the bells and whistles:   invitations, flowers, reception in the parish house, the works. During the past decade, they have adopted two Chinese orphans (went to China to get them). The first is about six now and I think the second is around three or so. They're happy kids, obviously being well raised, and lest anyone wonder about the psychological effects of being raised by two fathers, consider that these two kids are a helluva lot better off now than if they had been left in the orphanage.

Barbara and I also know a Lesbian couple or two. Two women living together seem to raise far fewer eyebrows than two men. But we live in a particularly tolerant (I prefer to think "enlightened") area of the city, and although you don't really see it that often, two men walking down the street hand-in-hand goes essentially unnoticed.

Barbara and I have been happily married for nearly twenty-seven years. I cannot figure out how these folks' relationships, whether they are married or just living together, in any way threaten our marriage. Anyone who maintains that it does is going to have to explain it to us in specific and explicit terms.

There is a gay man (also in a relationship) in the writers' group that Barbara and I belong to. One day I got to discussing the matter of gay marriage with him. My thought was that there are two factors involved:   one is the legal relationship, covering matters such as insurance, inheritance, being regarded as next of kin in hospital situations, etc.; in general, having the same legal status and rights as a heterosexual marriage. The other would be the religious aspect:   wedding or commitment ceremony in a church, similar to a heterosexual wedding. There are a number of mainstream churches around this city that will perform such a ceremony for a same-sex couple. But should this not be offered in the church of their choice, at least the legal aspects are taken care of in a civil ceremony. He pretty much agreed, but he did insist that the word "marriage" should apply. Having never been one to "stand on ceremony" so to speak, I'm not sure why this is so important to him, but apparently it is. As far as I'm concerned, that's fine.

After all, it does not affect Barbara and me in any way that I can see.

I remember seeing an interview on TV with the late Quentin Crisp, well know British gay man (used to refer to himself as "one of the stately homos of England"). Along in years, his appearance was quite androgynous: shirt and slacks (could be worn by either sex), fairly long hair, bluish tint. The interviewer commented on his appearance and asked him if he were ever asked whether he was a man or a woman. He responded that it happens quite often. He said that his stock response was, "Does it matter? What did you have in mind?"

Think about it.

Don Firth

P. S.: By the way, as far as the proposed Constitutional amendment is concerned, those who propose it display their ignorance of what the Constitution is all about:

The citizens of this country are free to do anything they want, unless it is specifically forbidden by law. [Laws are passed by legislators, not by Constitutional amendment or executive order.]

The government of this country is not free to do anything, unless it is specifically permitted by the Constitution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:18 PM

Little Hawk's suggestion about Blonde Pride Week would get my vote, with a minor adaptation: TOPLESS Blonde Pride Week. If it catches on, we could make it a bi-weekly thing (little pun there).


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:35 PM

Now that you mention it, Brucie, there is no "Goat Pride Week" in this town...or in any Ontario town or municipality that I know of. That sucks. Something should be done about it. I think that a bunch of high-priced lawyers should be consulted immediately, and legal action taken to ensure that attractive goats like Esmeralda receive the respect and equality that they deserve in this society!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:45 PM

Let's just sterilise them all and be done with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:49 PM

GUEST - we'll start with you, as soon as we find the magnifying glass to see your wee-wee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:54 PM

hey i like watching a good dike scene on-screen, but those fudge-packers i don't want to have anything to do with.

Glad my kids are straight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:59 PM

How many kids have you got?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:00 PM

To my great surprise, my Mom, a known fag hag (that was the slang term for straight women whose friends were almost all gay men back when I was growing up), opposes the idea of gay marriage. When pressed she said it's because they (gays) should stop trying to imitate us (straights) and just do their own thing. I had 2 answers:

1) If *I* do the standing in line to apply for a marriage license, why should the goverment look into my mate's jeans? Or, if I am married to a same-sex person, why should I have to use a different word than if I were married to another gender? Isn't the point for the term to be gender-neutral so that everybody can seem normal?

2) They aren't imitating the straights, they're trying to be normal, which is what the straights are considered. See point (1), above.

My take is marriage in a church can be as limited as the church wants (the Quakers will marry same-sex couples, the Catholic's won't), and marriage in a civil ceremony should not even ask the gender question.

And to John P, don't forget about taking slaves only from non-neighboring tribes and dashing someone's children's heads against the stones, can't recall whose exactly...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:01 PM

Goat Pride Week: Has a nice ring to it, dontcha think? I love you Ontario boys. You just keep thinking there Butch; that's what you're good at.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:02 PM

NO pun was intended there. Sigmund, where ARE you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:04 PM

Trolling again, MG?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:04 PM

My solution to the whole damned thing was not to get married at all! This way I could have a relationship with whom I pleased and no one (hopefully) had anything to say about the matter. If I had wanted children though, then I would have married.

Accordingly, I'm not exactly sure why gays would want to marry in the first place, but I don't really care if they do. It doesn't hurt me and it doesn't hurt anyone else either as far as I'm concerned.

It would be nice, though, if people would stop bickering over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:07 PM

No trolling Silly river. Just voicing my opinions like everyone else.

Three teen sons Little Hawk. their pappy is a pistol and they are son of a gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:13 PM

So, National Blond Topless Goats Week?

Works for me!

;-D

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:21 PM

Yes, a topless goat is something to see all right. Esmeralda is more what I would call a brunette, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:32 PM

Didn't mean to get involved here,as anyone who speaks their mind and does not agree with the pervasive "gay culture " is on a hiding to nothing.
I think it was little Hawk who said he didnt understand why they should want to "marry" in the first place ,and as usual he goes right to the point.

The whole charade is designed to raise the profile of homosexuality and bring it under the umbrella of "normal behaviour".

The gay lobby is not weak,but powerful and vociferous, and god help anyone who stands in the way of its agenda,they will be smeared as bigots and reactionaries.
Im no right winger ,nor am I a bigot,but to my mind, many of these unfortunate people are battling, not "Straight society", but their own psychological problems.
I very much agree with Daylai.   We need to find out a lot more about this condition ,before entrusting children to unstable people...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:37 PM

"We need to find out a lot more about this condition ,before entrusting children to unstable people"

CONDITION?

UNSTABLE?


OH



MY



GOD


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:42 PM

Ellen polly...Would you like to address the Whole of the post, not just pieces quoted out of context ...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:55 PM

Will we ever come out of the dark ages?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

Oh well...
Paedophile priests !!


Oh



My


God

Sue taught me to do that...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

Didn't mean to get involved here,as anyone who speaks their mind and does not agree with the pervasive "gay culture " is on a hiding to nothing.
I think it was little Hawk who said he didnt understand why they should want to "marry" in the first place ,and as usual he goes right to the point.

The whole charade is designed to raise the profile of homosexuality and bring it under the umbrella of "normal behaviour".

The gay lobby is not weak,but powerful and vociferous, and god help anyone who stands in the way of its agenda,they will be smeared as bigots and reactionaries.
Im no right winger ,nor am I a bigot,but to my mind, many of these unfortunate people are battling, not "Straight society", but their own psychological problems.
I very much agree with Daylai.   We need to find out a lot more about this condition ,before entrusting children to unstable people...Ake


Ok, all of context is above.

I think you are a bigot, and your language bears that out.
Saying things like "these unfortunate people" about many homosexuals and lesbians, and that they are "battling their own psychological problems" along with considering these folks as having a "condition" as if it's an illness of some kind, all reflect your bias.

I was simply overwhelmed when I read what you wrote first time around. And in the re-reading, I find it just as difficult to accept.

But you're allowed your opinions. I do understand it's your own "condition" you're dealing with.

-e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Susan of DT
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

(dick greenhaus)
Listen up, y'all.
Adoption has NOTHING to do with gay marriage. Completely different set of rules, and having 2 gays marry is no guarantee that they'll be able to adopt.

Second, a valid reason for gays to marry is to achieve equality under the law--taxation, inheritence and insurance.

Third, What the hell does Scripture have to do with the laws of the US?
We may trust in God, but I suspect She's not very trustworthy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

Ake,

I read you whole post. You are ignorant and close-minded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM

Just sterilise them all and be done with it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:11 PM

Elenpolly...My condition, is the condition of the vast majority of the humans on this planet, and I see no need to defend it to you.
Your attitude is exactly the one which I mentioned in my post.   No objective discussion, just scream shout and smear .

If you really knew anything about me in real life,you would understand that there are few people less bigoted about human nature.

I have friends who are homosexual, who quietly struggle through life with a heavy burden,I admire them.

It is the vociferous"gay culture",that I abhor.
They are the bigots...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM

Hey now ... ake is entitled to an opinion without the personal insults, surely? Disagree with his viewpoint if you will, but stifling his voice is unjust.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:17 PM

I am sure he likes to stifle it with a big sausage in his maw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:21 PM

ellenpoly, are you a dike?

Just curious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:23 PM

Thanks BPL...Personal abuse is always a sure sign of a weak argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:29 PM

Martin,

That's a non sequitar. I ain't black and I supported black rights. I ain't Jewish and I support Jewish rights. I ain't female and I support women's rights.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:50 PM

Ellen polly...your main objection to my post would seem to be the use of "condition" to describe homosexuality.

Alot of homosexuals whom I have known or observed have indeed suffered from a "condition" from childhood. In most cases caused by their parents relationship.
The most harmful to the child being an over dominant mother and weak father.

This " condition " is well document in medical publications.

If you find any other "bigotry" please allow me to respond...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:04 PM

Brucie

Isn't a sequitar one of those cool guitars those guys in Nashville played? Guys like Porter Waggoner and Hank Snow?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM

I think some of you may be misinterpreting Akenaton's remarks. I believe what he is objecting to is the media and legal activities of a specific and very vociferous group of people who act as if they represent ALL gays when in fact they do not. Those people seek confrontation and controversy. So do their counterparts in the religious right who hate gays. What you have is two groups of fanatical and obsessed people polarized in extreme and opposite positions, and seeking conflict with one another...and the rest of the public (most of whom would just as soon live and let live) being held hostage in a sense and dragged into legal battles and political battles that are exaggerated and not very helpful if one wants to have a free and harmonious society.

Now, I have seen the same thing happen before around black/white issues, Native-American issues, Jewish/anti-semite issues, male/female issues, and a number of other issues.

It's extremism posturing as open-mindedness. It's fanaticism posturing as the search for equality. It's the desire for conflict and even the desire for martyrdom posturing as the search for freedom. And it's a pain in the neck for most of the people, most of the time.

I have never had a problem with gay people, but I don't exactly see why they must now have a "Gay Pride Week" in my little town. Why? Who else has a "Pride Week" around here? I don't have a burning desire to have some kind of "Pride Week" around any of my particular unique characteristics and choices in life...I just enjoy being who I am, that's all, and I think that a gay person who is comfortable in what he or she is would do the same.

What is this obsession about confronting every conceivable public thing that can be confronted? I think it's a sign of a psychological problem...one that has nothing whatsoever to do with being gay, but has a great deal to do with being a one-issue-obsessed person with a chip on his/her shoulder and a desire for attention.

If I was gay, I wouldn't get in everybody's face about it all the time...and I wouldn't hide it either. I'd just relax about it and be who I was and leave other people alone about it. And that is exactly what I would prefer the religious right to do as well...leave other people alone.

As for the marriage thing, as I said, I have no objection to adults marrying whomever they wish to marry. That's their business. I understand that there are financial and legal aspects to it, but I don't care too much about that either. As for health care...in a decent, modern society EVERYONE should be entitled to full health care at no charge as far as I'm concerned. That's socialized medicine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:14 PM

Ah. . . Akenatan. . . another county heard from. So why is this one group not permitted to "vociferously" defend and define themselves after Western culture has asaulted and legislated against them since who knows when? The squeaking wheel rules, and they have plenty of company with other special interest groups in the news.

Martin Gibson, the term for a lesbian that you're using in a derogatory fashion is spelled "dyke." The word you used, "dike," generally has to do with geological formations or is a structure meant to hold back a substance, often water. When making bigotted remarks you will look a bit less ignorant if you spell the insult correctly.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:28 PM

Oh, of course they are permitted to, Stilly, just as blacks, Native Americans, women, and everyone else is permitted to in a free society...and has the absolute right to. But there is a point when healthy self-assertion goes beyond the legitimate search for identity and equality into something decidedly nasty. I've seen it before and I'm seeing it now again. I have seen several groups of people whom I fervently supported move slowly from legitimate self-expression into obnoxious self-absorption. And they did it because they were so wrapped up in themselves that they started to feel morally superior to everyone who wasn't like them.

I saw it in the Native American political movement and it made me very, very sad, because I believed so much in what that culture stood for. It was awful seeing it taken over by fanatical, arrogant cranks with a chip on their shoulder who thought the ground was blessed just by them walking on it. They had reached the point where if you weren't Native...well, you were inferior. Nasty.

It was a violation of the very ideals they claimed to stand for...and they did not represent the majority of Native people...but boy did they get air time!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:31 PM

Little Hawk...not for the first time Im touched by your understanding.

Although I dont know who you are, I think you must have overcome many obstacles in your journey,to gain the depth and vision that you possess
One of the good things about Mudcat,is learning from people like you
    Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:33 PM

Ake's views are identical to the people who hated "uppity blacks" in the 60s because they were trying to get equal rights. The same with the anti-feminists in the 70s.

Archie Bunker used to represent that point of view. He liked everyone regardless of race, sex, creed, religion, etc. AS LONG AS they either act as much like him as possible, or stay as invisible as possible. That attitude should never be tolerated.

I'm not trying to shut him up.

I have every right to tell him what I think of him.

His views are merely a "kinder and gentler" version of bigotry. I will not sit still and say nothing with those kinds of attitudes being stated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:46 PM

Blackcatter...You are completely wrong and Little Hawk is completely correct in the analysis of my position.

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about perception...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:54 PM

Okay, that's your impression, Blackcatter, but you may be mistaken about his motives.

I don't mind "uppity blacks, uppity women, or uppity Native Americans" if "uppity" means...seeking equality. (And I believe that's what it usually does mean, when people call someone by the word uppity.)

By, by God, I mind hate-filled, holier-than-thou fanatics with a "victim" complex, no matter what cause they are blathering on about. They are painful to be around. They're like a musical instrument that is only capable of sounding one sour note, but very loudly. The Nazis were such a group in their time, and it didn't get them into a very good place in the end, did it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:57 PM

Blackcatter...I had a quiet smile at your statment equating me with "uppity black" haters in the sixties.

Perhaps I could tell a little story to show my real position.

Iv four boys (now men), whom I taught to respect people of all creeds and colours, and although surrounded by religious bigotry here in Scotland, they grew up fine people,and Im very proud of them.

During the 60s I joined the YCL and was involved in the UK civil rights issues.
I explained all about the civil rights movement and its heros and heroines to my oldest son Bruce and he seemed to develope more than a casual interest in Black equality.
After leaving school Bruce moved to work in a poor area of London , with a large black population. He had only been there a few weeks, when he wrote home complaining that he had been mislead. The blacks in London were as vicious and arrogant as the whites in America had been in the 60s. They would not speak other than to abuse,used their colour as a sign of superiority, and he was even spat upon in the street for being white,exactly the condition Little Hawk describes so well in his post,roles reversed,a different kind of hatred but just as corrosive.
Bruce got over his experience but idealism has now been replaced with a cynicism more suited to "us oldies".

This role reversal is what I dislike about the Gay Movement its now at the stage of Gay being Good and any other opinion a perversion...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 08:57 PM

This issue causes some emotional responses, and I hope no one gets past the point of being able to kiss/shake hands and make up. The slope there is steep, but the road back is a sonuvabitch. Been there and done that.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Wondering
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:22 PM

brucie, can the gay people kiss and make up too, or is that just for the straights? Or can a gay man kiss and make up with a straight man? Won't that make the straight man gay? of if the straight man is cute, will it make the gay man straight? Wow, this gets complicated!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:27 PM

GUEST,Wondering: Absolutely. I have no idea what you said, but if it has to do with kissing, I'm all for it. Have you met Esmeralda?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:48 PM

Martin, just wondering, how would you feel if one of your kids were gay?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:58 PM

OK - give us examples of what you mean when it comes to gay people.

How exactly have you been bothered by gay people or gay culture?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:30 AM

Silly River

Is fag spelled with 1 G or two

fag or fagg?

Your such an expert on the subject. Maybe you are one. I better not turn my back on you.

I am also sick of homosexuals flaunting themselves all over the place. Here in Chicago there is a big annual gay pride parade where a group of people try to stick it all in everyone's face. All straight people run for cover so they are sure that the news cameras don't catch them anywhere near it. It's hilarious how the politicians march in this parade smiling and waving and sucking up to this way too exposed special interest group.

I agree with Little Hawk. If guys like to butt fuck other guys, be my guest, but please take your "pride" in this and don't wave and smile at me about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:36 AM

Little Hawk,
The reason that the gay folks like to have gay pride events, and why no one seems to think it is important for others to have pride events, is that gay people are perhaps the last class of people being legally descriminated against in the US (and in Canada, too, I think, although you folks seem to be getting the picture a bit quicker than we are).

I am vocal in my opinion that it is bigotry to deny legal rights to gay people if the same rights are given to others. I am not gay, I am not part of any gay organization, I am not particularly strident, and the only agenda I have is that there is a class of people being descriminated against for no good reason. And, as I said when I started this discusssion, most of the reasons that are given don't stand up to even cursory examination. I notice that none of the anti-gay rights folks who have taken part in this conversation have responded to any of those points.

I think it was Ghandi who said something like, "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Well, gays were ignored for a long time. Then they were the stuff of bad jokes. Now the bigots are fighting them. Guess what happens next?

Here's an idea: maybe it's not the radical gay lobby that is doing the fighting. Maybe it's the crowd that keeps yelling about stopping the activist judges from legislating from the bench. Maybe the gay folks just want to be treated like everyone else, and all the fighting is being done by the bigots. No, I don't really beleive that, but the point is that if their civil rights weren't being trod on they wouldn't have to be fighting for them.

Another reason it makes a difference to me even though I'm not gay is that the current laws of our country force me, if I want to stay married to my wife, to be part of a priveledged class that enjoys legal benefits which are denied to those around me. I resent that. There is a list somewhere of more than 1000 advantages that are given to married couples by the United States government that non-married couples can't have. And that's just the federal government. The list gets a lot longer if you start adding in state, county, and city governments. The question you might ask is why SHOULDN'T they fight against that sort of descrimination?

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:41 AM

A friend of mine in New York wrote a few weeks ago to say a friend of his was murdered. My friend and his friend are both gay. He said that he is amazed that the police are actually investigating this murder (the guy was stabbed and bludgeoned in his own apartment). They never used to bother, or even pretend to bother about murders of gay men in New York City. Hate crimes happen all-too-freely in an environment like that. It requires a strident response from the community involved, and if the pendulum swings a bit close to your face, that's something you have to deal with. Same with activist Indians. People are talking about Hiroshima and Nagasaki on another thread--you want to see murder and genocide? You take a look at the policies of the American government and before that of the colonial powers in the first 500 years of colonial occupation of this North American continent. Many millions died through various means. Amherst and his smallpox blankets, Andrew Jackson and his death marches, those are only a drop in the bucket.

You'd best not pooh-pooh those noisy groups unless you are on incredibly firm footing yourself and are experiencing no personal benefit yourself from policies enacted to benefit earlier white and straight generations. People who live in glass houses, and all that.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:43 AM

Akenaton's posts speak for themselves--unfortunately, he doesn't seem to realize what they say--


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:13 AM

Martin Gibson, if the best you can do is call people names, why are you bothering to post to this thread? You only confirm what people have already assume about you--best stay silent and at least keep them guessing. And if it makes you feel better, you can keep up your "silly" reading of my moniker, but "Stilly" is short for "Stillaguamish," and there is a T in it.

Silence is golden, so shut up and get rich.
SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:24 AM

Wow don't you people get uptight about the strangest things?

London like many cities has a great gay festival annually. Called THE Respect festival.....it is hugely attended by folks of varying persuasion, a great family day out.Trouble free and a real mardi gras atmosphere.

What are you scared of? Don't you like a party?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:46 AM

Urghhhhhhhhh actually called Pride festival, my mistake. Respect is the anti racism one. So many parties and so little time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 06:58 AM

See, I'm still listening after all!

When making bigotted remarks you will look a bit less ignorant if you spell the insult correctly.

SRS


"Bigotted"??? Interesting. This post speaks for itself too.   :-)

Here's a little scenario for everyone's delectation and delight ... last night I was sitting with 5 friends after dinner, thinking about this discussion.   I decided to pop the question "Do you think gay couples should be allowed to adopt children?"

I got 4 no's, and 1 yes. The "yes" person backed up her view with "Why not? They might turn out a little screwed up, but everybody's got psychological problems anyway."

Then one of the "no" people qualified her statement by saying if gay couples can figure out a way to produce thier own kids, fine and dandy. But they should not be allowed to adopt other people's. And then she told us about one of the ladies's baseball teams in her league.

Apparently everyone on this one particular team is a lesbian. The first baseman and the pitcher got married last Christmas, and now the first baseman is 4 months pregnant. How, you ask?

Well, apparently the pitcher's brother was happy to "fill in the gap" for them.

There was dead silence around the table for a minute or so. While everyone was retrieving their jaws from the floor, someone piped up with a tentative "Are they ALLOWED to do that???"

And the mumbled reply ..."I guess so. Who's gonna stop them?" Dead silence again, change of subject. *Whew*!

I went home with visions of not two but now THREE people battling in front of some hapless harried judge in a year or so, trying to figure out custody and support for that helpless babe. This may be a tad pessimistic, but hey, here's some facts to back it up ....

Ontario was the first place in North America to legalize gay marriages. And the first gay couple to get married here under the new law applied for divorce less than a year later.

Just some more food for thought.

Ake, I think your posts make the most sense of anyone's here, and what you've said about LH is right on the mark too.   Keep it up!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:18 AM

Little Hawk, my comments were not based on what Ackenaton thought about gay extremists, but about his, and dalia's thoughts that people with a different sexual orientation are ill, or emotionally unsound, or "carrying a burden" or in any way more or less screwed up than the rest of us. (No MG I'm not a lesbian).

This is a reason used by many to keep gay men and women out of being equals in society. I do not agree with it, and as I said, from my experience, and reading find they, as a group, are no more or less "burdened" than the rest of us, except in as they are treated.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:37 AM

Ellenpoly, when did I ever say that "people with a different sexual orentation are ill, or emtionally unsound, or "carrying a burden"? If you want to quote me, how about using the cut and paste feature on your browser, to avoid confusion?

What I did say was that very few of the many homosexual or bisexual kids and adults I've known or had personal dealings with over the years are what I consider to be physically, socially, or emotionally "healthy" or even "coping quite well". Unfortunately, that IS the painful truth.

One more first-hand observation -- the male homosexuals I've known seem to be much worse off than the females. I think this is because lesbians are more acceptable, considered to be more "desirable" in this culture - perhaps because portraying lesbians "doing their thing" is and has been very profitable for the (male) "kings" of the porn industry for quite some time now?

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:01 AM

Those were mostly taken from what Akenaton said, daylia, sorry.

But it seems pretty obvious that you also think of homosexuality as a problem for the people who are that way oriented.

I don't disagree that children who experience their sexuality, especially in the beginning of adolescence, often have difficulties, but that stands true for most kids. Do children who find themselves attracted to their own gender have more difficulites? Most likely many of them do. They live in a society that often rejects them for this in very brutal ways.

Will that then affect them emotionally? Well yes, in many instances it will. Some can be scarred for life.

My objection to what I think you and akenaton are saying is that their gender preference causes the problems internally. I think it is the external problems in the guise of those who oppose, often with tremendous anger and violence-people who are different...and NOT just sexually different.

We are beleaguered as a society with having to constantly create "us and them" mentalities. The "them" are often ostracised and belittled. It's a way of making the tribe feel stronger and safer.

But it's not a tribe I am proud to be a part of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:39 AM

daylia,
I'm glad you're still with us. I'm sorry I accused you earlier of being against gay marriage. You never actually said that. You do seem to be saying, however, that gay folks shouldn't be allowed to raise kids. So, the message I get from you is that they should be able to get married, but we shouldn't let them have families. How terribly white of you.

And you still haven't said anything about why we let hetero child abusers have kids. If you really think that having kids means the gay parents are putting the children at risk, you could at least be in favor of equal rights for all risk-causing parents.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:16 AM

Ake, you wrote:
This role reversal is what I dislike about the Gay Movement its now at the stage of Gay being Good and any other opinion a perversion.

I don't really see gay people saying gay is good or bad. They are mostly saying "give us our civil rights." And, "any other position is bigotry." OK, I often say that anti-gay folks are perverted. You seem to have an unhealthy interest in other people's sex lives. Yes, that's a perversion in my book.

Im no right winger ,nor am I a bigot,but to my mind, many of these unfortunate people are battling, not "Straight society", but their own psychological problems.
I very much agree with Daylai.   We need to find out a lot more about this condition ,before entrusting children to unstable people.


No one who has actually studied the issue (like the entire mainstream medical and psychological establishment) has beleieved for many years that homosexuality is a condition or an unstability. Perhaps it would be good for you to learn something about it before you claim to be not bigoted.

Iv four boys (now men), whom I taught to respect people of all creeds and colours, and although surrounded by religious bigotry here in Scotland, they grew up fine people,and Im very proud of them.

Try this: everytime you think "gay", substitute the word "black" or "woman" or "Arab" in whatever your sentence was and you might start to understand why folks are calling you a bigot.

The blacks in London were as vicious and arrogant as the whites in America had been in the 60s.

Really? All of them? Every last one? Are you sure you're not bigoted against them as well?

They would not speak other than to abuse,used their colour as a sign of superiority, and he was even spat upon in the street for being white,exactly the condition Little Hawk describes so well in his post,roles reversed,a different kind of hatred but just as corrosive.
Bruce got over his experience but idealism has now been replaced with a cynicism more suited to "us oldies".


Of course there are going to be people who, after being societally abused for so many years, are going to fight fire with fire. Do you really think they represent the vast majority of gay folks, or black folks, or women, or whatever group you're talking about at the moment? Don't you know that generalizing from the individual to the group as a whole is one of the hallmarks of bigotry? Are you blaming all gay people -- and saying they should be legally kept down -- because there are gay activists who are also jerks?

Anyone who says he is not a bigot and has helped his children overcome the bigotry that surrounded them as they grew up has to have spent some real time doing some deep soul searching in order to have escaped that bigotry himself. I urge you engage in that process on the subject of gay people. Please don't assume you know what they are or what they want, and really don't assume you know what's best for them. Try to put yourself in their shoes and imagine what it would feel like to have been born gay in our society. Try to imagine what it would feel like if there were laws against you raising your sons.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:27 AM

It is natural for liberal-minded people to support people who are seeking equal rights. Accordingly, I and many other liberal-minded people have in our time supported women, Native Americans, blacks, gays, and various visible minorities in their search for equality.

That is clear.

However, I note another phenomenon which is not so clear. When members of a discriminated-against minority themselves become discriminatory toward others...as I have seen happen on many occasions...when they become totally unreasonable, due to a "victimization" complex that is exaggerated way beyond the realities they are dealing with...and I have seen that too...

Do we then support them in their bigotry? I don't.

I am not accusing gays in general of such bigotry. However, I am saying that the media nowadays are being manipulated by certain rather odd individuals who are obsessed with gay-related issues to a point which suggests to me that they are in the grip of a serious psychological illness. And I do not support this cockeyed approach to life. It's unreasonable.

To just have a standard rote opinion on any issue is a robotic sort of behaviour. You have to look at each individual situation on its own merits. Meaning: a black person is not ALWAYS a victim, just because he is black. A Native American is not ALWAYS a spiritual giant just because he is Native. A woman is not ALWAYS a victim just because she is female. A gay person is not ALWAYS a victim just because he/she is gay.

Some women are petty tyrants in relationship. Some blacks are virulent racists against whites (or someone else). Some Natives are arrogant pricks. Some gays are manipulative jerks.

You know why? They're just like other people!!! What a surprise. :-)

So when you leap to defend every issue connected to some special interest group just because you have decided that a "liberal" person would support that special interest group...maybe you are not really thinking about the matter very clearly at all...but just indulging in political correctness.

I still support gays in a general sense, by the way, as I still support blacks, women, Native Americans, etc., but I judge each circumstance on its own merits.

I really have no strong opinion on whether or not gays should raise children. I suppose it would mainly depend on the individual circumstances, which could vary tremendously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:01 AM

Little Hawk,
Uh, duh . . . most of what you say in your last post seems staggeringly self-evident. I have to admit that one of my hot spots is people who ought to know better displaying bigotry, so I get a bit of a warm fuzzy when I see other people complain about it too. Of course there are gay activist jerks, just like there are racially bigoted black activists and sexist feminists. How not? But I must admit that I'm having some trouble seeing the relevence of your observations to the present conversation.

Do you really think that anyone in this discussion has leaped to defend every issue connected to a special interest group just because they have decided that a liberal person would do so? I haven't seen that happening. Could you be more specific, or else refrain from throwing such vague comments around?

Your last paragraph starts: I really have no strong opinion on whether or not gays should raise children. Do you have an opinion about whether or not they should be legally barred from raising children? That would be a little more to the point.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

Concerns about children of same-sex couples being bullied by other kids will matter less and less. In general younger people care less about sexual orientation, and the issues at hand are probably just a matter of time.

People have Pride events because they feel the need to, having a norm preached at them constantly in ways us breeders don't notice as much. Most likely it will die off as the need does.

I don't have many particular feelings about gays--maybe a few. Many seem to harbor resentment against bi-s. One told me bi-sexuals hurt twice as many people in relationships--as if they are working a double shift. What else, okay; I don't share the goof-ball male patronization of lesbians, lesbians aren't sexy to me, but like sensible shoes, or Estee Lauder models--cute but not erotic. For me the core of feminine mystique is the mystery of why they like dudes. If they don't, they seem sensible. I suspect many lesbians aren't gay at all, merely sane. My problem with "Pride" and "prevailing gay culture" is aesthetic--it's illustational in that Sunday-school sort of way, whatever it's about or who it's for.

The thing that put me off Akenaton's remarks wasn't so much his opinion but his facile implication that everyone who disagrees is part of a group mind, like no one else has a real opinion. That's a low rude childish thing guys do, and it deserves what it gets.

Also, I wonder if straights are straight because of a domineering father and a weak mother. Not really. I don't really care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM

The problem is, we get into "should" and "shouldn't" and base our arguments on stereotypes. "The world is a bad place, and children will get discriminated against." Unfortunately, the stereotype here is of the world in general, not of gays.

They should have the right to marry and to raise kids. Whether or not a specific couple should is not an issue for people who are discussing a specific couple. Rights aren't granted to specific individuals, they're granted to everybody.

As to protecting children...
Some communities would be better than others for a child of gay parents to grow up in. Some people are better than others at being nice. If certain people are denied the same rights as others based on solely on potential (or even probable) misbehavior by people outside that group, it's just passive discrimination. It's punishing the victim for what they might be victimized for.

Parents usually want to protect their kids. People who care about them want to protect them. We don't live in a perfect world, though. Kids have to learn how to walk, even though they may fall. Kids have to learn how to deal with bullies and potential kidnappers, molesters, peers who do drugs or get into trouble...any number of things. Kids have to learn to take a stand for what they believe in. Some will be hurt in the process, others will go on to do great things, and I think the difference, many times, can be how valid their stand is in the eyes of society. If society makes a law saying "You are in the right," it's a start in helping a kid deal with bigots.

The rights come first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:03 PM

The producers of two-way dildos would like to thank all lesbians for their on-going support of their products.

But Wal-Mart still will not carry the line, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:25 PM

So, Daylia, you want to review the spelling rules in the English language? Check your dictionary and you'll find under words and their modifications the option to leave a final consonant single or doubling it when adding "ed" or "ing" because the vowel "e" or "i" can change the pronuciation of the previous vowel. The mnemonic device for the rule is that when the letters is a word are arranged vowel--consonant--vowel the second vowel after the one consonant interval makes the first one "say it's own name." This produces a long vowel sound, which may not in fact be how it is supposed to be pronounced in that word. Doubling the consonant at the end before adding "ed" or "ing" prevents any ambiguity in pronunciation. Hence, traveling or travelling, etc. In this case, bigoted or bigotted works. As in the sentence "Daylia had some bigotted friends over for dinner the other night."

I'm not surprised that you can pull together a group of people who reach the same conclusions you do regarding civil rights, the rights to privacy, and the normal human activity of wanting to have and raise a family. Water seeks its own level. Your reporting of the bizarre twist in the conversation speaks volumes regarding your own conflicted argument, when you imply that you consider it 1. unnatural for lesbians to want to have children but also that 2. having heterosexual sex (with the pitcher's brother) to have children, if they're lesbian, is even more abnormal. Geez!

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM

Martin Gibson you seem awfully conversant with the comings and goings of the gay and lesbian lifestyle. Rather than Walmart, why don't you try Good Vibes for your dildo needs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM

No, John, I do not think gays should be legally barred from raising children. I should think that would have been staggeringly obvious. :-)

I think that a knee-jerk approach to always supporting a given side in some common social issue without any real forethought or investigation into the individual circumstances has become a prevailing social illness on the part of both liberals AND conservatives AND the media. That's why I'm drawing attention to it.

It's called "judging the book by its cover". Not much use if you can't be bothered to read the book.

Liberals are just as guilty of it as conservatives. I am what would generally be termed liberal...or perhaps radical-liberal...but I do not let other liberals get away easily with lazy thinking when they indulge in it. And boy, do they ever! They'd rather sound right than actually be right.

Stilly, are you feuding with daylia again? Tsk, tsk. I am going to have to see if I can arrange a weekend for four in Barbados for you, daylia, Martin Gibson, and Jack the Sailor...and then film it for Reality TV. Or maybe get you all on the Jerry Springer show or something like that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:45 PM

Don't go to "Good Vibes", Martin. They discriminate against goats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:46 PM

The makers of strap-on dildoes would like to thank Martin Gibson's wife for her recent purchase of the "Black Anaconda." Martin Gibson would thank them himself, but he's tied up and ball-gagged at the moment. Enjoy, Martin!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:58 PM

There are relatively few things I think people should be legally barred from. Let's see...

Murder, assault, theft, property destruction, other wanton acts of violence, pre-emptive war, wanton ecological destruction (uh-oh...), fraud, false advertising (oops! There goes a whole bunch of ads), lying in court or while in public office (yikes! there go most of our politicians), certain diving infractions or other reckless use of equipment in a public area, certain public acts of what would be termed "gross indecency" (this is a tricky area, partially dependent upon social customs...figure it out for yourself), knowingly selling harmful substances to people (arrgh! there goes a whole big piece of the food industry, plus the tobacco industry, and so on), medical quackery (there goes half of the normal activities of the AMA!)....and...um...

Hmmm. It is a complicated subject, isn't it? Nothing in there about gays, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:04 PM

Guest, you don't intimidate me with your cowardice. You are just a liar and plain uncomfortable with how I feel so you thin that you harm me by bringing my loving wife into the picture. go rotate on your dildo.

The only thing that interest me about the gay and lesbian lifestyle is how it has impacted aids and other types of cooties in the world. I am also glad my kids are not gay and I feel sorry for parents whose children are and who have had their dreams of having traditional (notice I did not say normal) children dashed. I do feel that gays do have rights as other, short of marriage. Little Hawk is right though that many are just too hostile and bigoted in their own reverse way.

Again, I will reiterate that if a guy likes to suck off another guy, that's fine with me, but don't flaunt your lifestyle at me. And wipe that giz off of your chin, please. OK Silly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:17 PM

Hey, Little Hawk,

I noticed that we had very similar beliefs according to the quiz on the Religions thread. Doesn't surprise me. However, does that mean we gotta go to India now? Just wondering.

Guest: You want to go at it with Martin, he's a big boy and more than able to take care of himself. However, his wife doesn't deserve to get the shit you are tossing around. Stop it. Don't be an ass. You're pissed at Martin, duke it out with Martin. OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:53 PM

He can't, Brucie. thanks for the support. He knows he is no match for me.

You just know that this "Guest" is a regular poster who has testicles the size of sesame seeds. The very fact that he has to insult me (or my wife) incognito is very satisfying to know because his character is so diminutive and that he has no guts. I love that I drive him to what he does, actually and that is to squirm his way into a shameful nobody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:29 PM

Actually, for guest I suspect MG was the target, not MG's wife. If MG's wife is buying a strapon, then MG is getting fucked, no? Or "fudgepacking" as he himself put it.

Maybe guest should have said "MG's favorite whore" or something.

Yo, you listening, guest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:05 PM

The gay couple I mentioned above who adopted the two boys have made a point of hiring woman baby sitters, and, in general, make sure that the boys have lots of contact with women and girls. They believe (as many authorities do) that sexual orientation is in-born, and that the sexual orientation of the two boys they adopted is already set. Statistically there is a very high probability that the boys will be heterosexually oriented, but that may not become evident until they reach puberty. In any case, I would say that this couple is doing a pretty good job of raising the kids. I see them every week or so, and they seem like—just kids, happy and rambunctious like two boys their ages ought to be. If they do have problems in the future, I'm quite sure it will have less to do with their family upbringing than it will with external factors, such as encountering bigots and bullies. But I'm sure their two fathers will be up to guiding the kids well when and if that happens. After all, they've had some experience with this sort of thing themselves.

Welcome back from your vacation, Marty. How were things back in the Dumpster? By the way, the adults are talking here, so why don't you go sit in the corner, think about gays and Lesbians, and play with your winkie?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

John P...My view of how the world should be, is a hundred times more radical than the sexual activities of what is still a very small minority of its inhabitants,so please dont patronise me.

Little Hawk summarised my position very well, and no amount of double speak from you or any of the other twisted people on this thread will smear me with bigotry.

I am thoroughly at ease with my position on most matters, and always think things out carefully before expressing my opinions.

I know that everyone wont get my meaning, but it pleases me that some of the most intelligent and sensitive people on Mudcat have supported me ....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:54 PM

Yay! The California supremem court just struck down all of the gay marriages and made them void. this movement has now had the setback it deserves.

Time to give back all of those blenders and china sets you got as gifts, not to mention the 2 way dildos and hamsters. This was done by a 5-2 vote because it was ILLEGAL! why is it illegal? Because a majority of people want it this way.

You are in a minority if you do not support the supreme court of California's decision.

Don, I feel sorry for the two boys being raised by the gay couple friends of yours. Hope they don't walk into a fudgepacking session accidently one day. All of the female baby sitting and and exposure to female relationships will be wiped out by that, not to mention what they will think when they are old enough and realize daddy and daddy have a thing for each other's behind. It's a shame for those kids. And adults don't call it a "winkie" Kids do, and so do people to embarrased with sex and their own anatomy to call it what it is. Or at least call it one of it's true adult slang names.

I'm glad I'm back. Had a fine vacation in a wonderful resort town I've been going to all my life. Life couldn't be better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:23 PM

Martin Gibson, you've made it clear that you know a lot of offensive hot-button terms to slather over the thread as it degenerates into a flame war.

You don't contribute anything useful, you're trolling and relishing the angry responses as part of a personal power struggle, to see if you can pervert the substantive discussion to your lowest common denominator of name calling and verbal blows. Between your adolescent approach to human sexuality and daylia's smug pronouncements based on flimsy evidence and no critical thought, you are perfect candidates for Little Hawk's proposed trip to the Jerry Springer Show. But Little Hawk will have to count this woman out of that trip--invite akenatan instead, so it will truly be a panel of your peers. You don't want sound reasoning, you want a shit-slinging brawl.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

Silly

Pull your shorts out of your crack.   

There are people who are perfectly reasonable who just don't think like you. Wahhhhhhhhhhhh! He's trolling because he doesn't think like me. Wahhhhhhhhhhh! Deal with it. Like other left-wing lug nuts here your little Utopia is in your own mind. As Dr. Phil would say, Get Real.

Yes, I and others in this country whether we are liberals or conservatives are glad this was struck down. go write a protest song over it or something to unbunch your shorts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:56 PM

I rest my case. Don't ever try to defend yourself in court, Martin Gibson, you'll have a fool for a client.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM

Joke's on you, silly

I just might be a successful attorney in my real life. consider the very real possiblity of that. Witness like you are the eptome of the word heresay.

You have no case to rest.
cuff him, baliff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 06:50 PM

Marty, the only case you're familiar with is your daily case of beer.

I used the term "winkie" because I was addressing your level of intellect and maturity. I note that you readily grasped what I was talking about, which proves I was right in my choice of words.

Have a nice day.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:36 PM

I thought it said "all men are created equal" not all men except Gays, blacks or whoever bigots want to target next. Since when did sexual orientation override your rights as an American citizen? That is the fundamental point of this whole issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:00 PM

Actually, it should say "All humans are created equal", but that was a different time with different sensibilities. The burning issue of the day in 1776 was whether society should be governed by hereditary monarchies or by a more representative form of government. Those who favoured the latter were looked at aghast in most places, the same way Communists were later in the 1930's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:33 PM

Martin Gibson-
I suspect that you're too young to remember Westbrook Pegler's first article, which started"..As a member of the lyncg mob in good dtanding,," By his--and apparently your--standards, there's nothing more democratic than a lynching--obviously the majority has ruled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM

Stilly River Sage is disposed toward grossly exaggerating the worth and importance of her opinions in an overbearing and offensive manner.

No, I did not have my friends over for dinner last night, Stilly - and yes, my friends and I are just as bigoted as you or I or anyone else.

Oh, and did I forget to mention that I don't think Gay adoption is wise for at least a few years yet?   Sorry if that makes me such a bigot.

Guess I'll just have to live with it!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:27 PM

Oh, and did I also forget to mention (again) that I personally would "NEVER ON YOUR (WHATEVERSEXUAL) LIFE!" choose to be adopted (or otherwise produced) by a homosexual couple in this oh-so-kindly-and-enlightened (NOT!) age?

Just want to make sure everyone is clear on what an ill-versed, perverse, sloppy-thinking and undoubtedly homophobic bigot I really am. That way no one will be tempted to grossly exaggerate the worth or importance of my personal opinions. ;-)

It might be interesting to take a poll and find out how many posters WOULD choose to be adopted by a homosexual couple, though! And it's even more interesting that I've yet to see an answer (except my own) to my question above.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:09 AM

Don You are obviously an old queen. And I don't drink as I have stated before, except an occasional glass of sweet wine while I cook dinner for the family on Sundays. So you, as usual only know from whence you defecate. Your insults are as lame as the rest of your feeble writing.

Dick Greenhouse or however you spell your name, I am 54 years old and remember plenty. Some have speculated I have a photographic memory. However I never heard of Westbrook Pegler. Obviously, he did not teach you how to spell very well in his influence on you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:34 AM

Would this be a bad time for a joke?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:04 AM

It's never a bad time for a goat...sorry! I meant, for a joke. Really, I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:12 AM

It would probably be an excellent time for a joke, Brucie.

Since this is a list on which the participation is, if not mature, at least well above legal age, it is non sequitur, or moot, to discuss any of our chosing to be adopted by ANYONE, gay or straight. This flame war is rapidly spiraling downward from idiotic to absurd.

Dick, that was a good call. Here's some background:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096673/

Here's an extract from Slate regarding an article about Pegler written by Wm. F. Buckley, Jr. in the March 1, 2004 New Yorker

Pegler's career took off in 1933 when he became a nationally syndicated columnist with Scripps-Howard, roared along under the Hearst family, and ended 30 years later under the auspices of a twitchy sect of neo-Nazis and professional racists from the White Citizens Council and the Rev. Billy James Hargis' truly reptilian Christian Crusade. At his peak in the 1930s and 1940s, Pegler was a leading popularizer of one of the most concerted antidemocratic crusades in this country's history: the vicious backlash against the New Deal and the labor movement to which it gave legal protection. This anti-Roosevelt front included the country's major industrialists, anti-Semitic, red-baiting pamphleteers, Congressman Martin Dies' Committee on Un-American Activities, and an assortment of Depression-era demagogues (and men on horseback who conspired with Hitler's agents in this country).

Although Pegler did not turn against Roosevelt until the president's second term, he quickly became a shrill cheerleader for the right's campaign to paint the New Deal's democratic advances as an internationalist Communist plot. Pegler compared union advocates of the closed shop to Hitler's "goose-steppers." (In his view, the greatest threat to the country was the corrupt labor boss; his exposé of a union official's mob connections earned him a Pulitzer in 1941.) By the 1950s, however, Pegler was showing some nostalgia for the Third Reich. His proposal for "smashing" the AF of L and the CIO was for the state to take them over. "Yes, that would be fascism," he wrote. "But I, who detest fascism, see advantages in such fascism."

and

Westbrook Pegler, "The Lynching Story"
http://www.geocities.com/westbrook_pegler/Lynching.htm this link goes to a story Pegler wrote about lynchings in California.

"I claim authority to speak for the rabble because I am a member of the rabble in good standing".


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:13 AM

Martin old bean,

you're on thin ice on the spelling thing, man.

"to embarrassed?"
"Witness like you are the eptome of the word heresay?"
"Baliff?"
"Supremem Court?"

If you are a successful attorney, I'm betting you have a secretary who does your correspondence!

I disagree with you on most of this stuff, as you can tell from my previous posts. But I do agree with you on one thing. The mayor marrying those people was illegal. It was legislating by executive order. I don't like it when Bush does it, so I would be hypocritical to support it when a mayor does.

I do support gays having the right to marry, but I think the SF mayor was grandstanding, jealous that somewhere else in the country might have the first gay marriages, and decided to jump the gun. He, the city, and the gay people he married were ill-served.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:51 AM

I'll happily take up your question, daylia.

Would I be adopted by a homosexual couple?

Are they kind and loving?

Do they respect each other?

Are they supportive and affectionate?

Will they encourage me to live my life with love and respect for all things on earth and beyond?

Then I'd feel privileged to be adopted by ANY couple like that.

Wouldn't you?



..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: el ted
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:15 AM

Would I be adopted by a homosexual couple? NO CHANCE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:29 AM

To answer your question, Ellenpoly, absolutely not. There's many more social and developmental variables at work here than simply whether or not homosexual parents might turn out to be kind, respectful, loving etc. I don't think it's necessary to relist those variables here.

Stilly, it is not "moot" to encourage people to think for themselves, to empathize with the powerless and vulnerable, to stop their arguing and politically correct (or incorrect) opinionizing and explore honestly --- just for one moment --- how it might actually feel to walk a mile (or a lifetime) in the moccasins of a helpless child artificially produced by or otherwise "donated" to a homosexual couple.   

I do attempt to "do unto others as I'd have them do unto me". I would NOT want that "done unto me". Therefore I choose not to do it to anyone else, or advocate it in any way, shape or form.

Thanks for answering the question, people. Please keep it up! So far we have two "no's" and one "yes". (You did mean "yes", right Ellenpoly?)

Just to make it easier for any newcomers to this thread to find the question, here it is again, freshly cut and pasted from my Aug 4 6:39 am post above ....

... I ask you sincerely, would you personally want to be adopted by a homosexual couple as a helpless babe, to face a lifetime of pervasive social ostracism and potential violence? As for me, NOT ON YOUR (WHATEVERSEXUAL) LIFE !!!

daylia


PS Don't worry, you won't be flamed or insulted or called a "bigot" (and worse) if you vote "yes" or express a different feeling/point of view than my own. At least by me.

I'll leave that kind of behavior to the seasoned, on-site experts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:52 AM

daylia, I stand by my answer.

I have witnessed children and adults who have had to deal with horrific family lives.

I've also seen people ostracized and penalized for myriad reasons.

The former I'm thinking of, all came from so-called "normal parents (ie-male/female).

And the latter all survived because they came from homes of parents, be they normal or gay, that offered them the kind of skills to cope with people's ignorance, bigotry, and abuse, and come out of it stronger and in most cases, more loving towards their fellow humans.

It's about giving children what they need, and there are no gender specifications for this, in my opinion.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:54 AM

To answer that question - yes I would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:16 AM

Why Jenny, Ellenpoly I'm disgusted! What addleminded misguided simpletons you must be! ;-)

I'm KIDDING, ok?

Ellenpoly, you do make some very persuasive points that I respect very much. I got distracted and neglected to mention before that I agree wholeheartedly with what you said near the beginning of this thread ...

I think personally that children raised in the "nuclear family", whether it be two women or two men, or a woman and man, are taking on a heavy load not really meant for just a couple. We'd all be infinitely healthier back in tribal groups.

I raised 3 sons mostly on my own. It was no picnic. I know gay-bashing and other forms of bigotry only too well. My kids learned it in the schoolyard, inflicted it on each other (and on me) for years. It took YEARS to rid them of it. Actually, I probably didn't "rid them of it" at all, much as I disciplined and lectured and sanctioned it every day of their lives ... I think they just grew out of it all on their own, thank God/dess.

My youngest son, 22 now, just told me he thinks it's ok for gay people to adopt kids. *gasp* Oh NO, I must've really FAILED as a mother ... methinks I better disown him ...

;-) actually, I'm very proud of him. He's come a long way, baby!


daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:21 AM

Oh shoot, I messed up the html tags above. Ellenpoly's statement was simply I think personally that children raised in the "nuclear family", whether it be two women or two men, or a woman and man, are taking on a heavy load not really meant for just a couple. We'd all be infinitely healthier back in tribal groups.

The rest of the above post is my own.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:59 AM

I understood that, daylia, and I think your son proves my own views perhaps better to you than I ever could!

PS-Don't disown him, learn from him. ;-)


..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:12 AM

Well Ellenpoly, he learned a lot from me so it's only fair! Please be assured I'm listening to you, and to him. When I asked him why, he echoed the girl over at my buddy's place the other night ... "Well a lot of kids get screwed up somehow anyway, so what's the difference?"

That is a point, but it's not the most important factor. To me, it's pretty much the same thing as saying "Well a lot of people drown anyway, so go right ahead and throw those helpless babes into the deep end of the pool. We can scientifically study what happens, and find out (in a decade or several) if we made the wisest decision."

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:17 AM

Yeah, my spelling sucked, too.

SRS, Fuck this Pegler and fascism in this thread. Total blah, blah, blah.

I went back and re-read the opening post:

"Second, it doesn't do anything at all to anyone else's marriage. All of this "debasing the institution of marriage" noise only says to me that your marriage is so weak that someone else getting married can have some negative effect on it. Why don't you strengthen your own marriage instead of outlawing someone else's? Being made to feel insecure in your marriage is not really a valid reason for banning gay marriage."

Hey Bud. It has nothing to do with being secure in one's own marriage. I'm perfectly secure and in a very strong marriage. You suck politically correct dogshit. It's illegal as just pointed out in San Francisco. Go change the fucking law. It will never happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Fred miller
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:43 AM

I wouldn't want to be adopted because I'm middle-aged and set in my ways, and this is also essentially what I don't like about same-sex marriage. That's all I need is more social complications, arrangements, ettiquette, things to ask Miss Manners about, new lines of Hallmark cards to have to pick through. For those of us who gain nothing from it, it's just a big headache. Can't these people just live a lie? they're good at theatre, what's the big deal?

Are we going to have to do new bathroom arrangements, based on declared orientations? Or are gays still going to get special rights to peek in locker rooms and stuff? Because I'd really enjoy an occasional sporting glance at normal naked women--it's so unfair that I can only get it served up as cheesy porn--it's self-conscious, awkward, goofy, it's just not the same. On top of that, straight guys aren't allowed to just hang out with women in their little book clubs and stuff, you CAN, but then the girls stop gossiping and act all serious, in silence.

There needs to be some legal package that gives something to straight people in the deal, some fun little enticement, or we will continue to grunt and groan, stall, drag our feet, air our petty complaints, blah blah blah. It's going to happen, anyway, of course, but we can do it the easy way, or the semi-easy but sort of difficult way, or the medium degree of hassle way. We can be nice, or sort of pissy about it. What's in it for us?


sorry if this double-posts, it won't go thru.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:46 AM

Good post, Fred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: el ted
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:55 AM

My God!! Public buildings are going to have to have "gay" toilets as well as "male" and "female"


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:45 AM

And after that, blacks will demand separate toilet facilities for them!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:38 PM

"I ask you sincerely, would you personally want to be adopted by a homosexual couple as a helpless babe, to face a lifetime of pervasive social ostracism and potential violence? As for me, NOT ON YOUR (WHATEVERSEXUAL) LIFE !!!"

Your question, daylia, is a silly one. It is like asking me if I would choose to be born a Jew or black or Amish or a Gypsy or you name it. Each of these groups has been reviled and persecuted.

Frankly, in my opinion you would do yourself better service by examining your views.

And my answer? Absolutely. For all I know, I would have chosen/been chosen to be born at that time or in that place in order to help people examine and rectify their prejudices.

Elva Bontrager


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,me
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM

I'm a YES too....just can't be bothered discussing this with the self appointed sex police.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:54 PM

To me, it's pretty much the same thing as saying "Well a lot of people drown anyway, so go right ahead and throw those helpless babes into the deep end of the pool. We can scientifically study what happens, and find out (in a decade or several) if we made the wisest decision."


Daylia, I think you are still going on the premise that most gay people bring too much negative baggage into a relationship and that will reflect upon, and influence any children brought into the mix.

Or perhaps it's not that, but simply that you'd not like to see yet another group of children be harrassed, as there are enough out there as it is.

In either case, yes, studies will be taken (and somebody is sure to make a lot of bread off the backs of it) and somewhere down the road, I'm willing to bet the results will be closely equal to double gendered couples' children's difficulties.

I myself hope for even better. Above, Ebbie says, "For all I know, I would have chosen/been chosen to be born at that time or in that place in order to help people examine and rectify their prejudices"

And in this I agree. Let's face it, our children are sadly often in the front lines of taking on the battles passed onto them by their parents-both positively and negatively.

The next generation (as your son has shown) may happily surprise us all.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:08 PM

"Old queen," Marty? That'll come as a helluva surprise to my wife (not to mention the young woman who lives in the apartment upstairs—   Please! Don't mention the young woman upstairs!!).

And that lovely bit about "You suck politically correct dogshit." Now there is a really devastating piece of logical argumentation. I am in awe! As an attorney, your courtroom skills must be downright dazzling!

And "It's illegal[insert comma here] as just pointed out in San Francisco." Just because something is judged legal or illegal does not mean the law is ethically or morally right. I could come up with a pretty long list of laws throughout history, and currently in effect, that illustrate my point, but I leave that to you as a good exercise for an attorney. Save yourself some effort and have one of your legal clerks do the research.

"Go change the fucking law." Now that's the first reasonable thing you've said since you climbed out of the Dumpster.

"It will never happen." I beg to differ. I think John P. is right on the money when he quotes Ghandi. Let me repeat that:   "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." And as John goes on to say, "Well, gays were ignored for a long time. Then they were the stuff of bad jokes. Now the bigots are fighting them. Guess what happens next?"

When gays finally do attain their full civil rights, that won't stop the bigots from doing their usual pissing and moaning, but unfortunately there will always be bigots. For example, there are some people who are still trying to fight the Civil War. People like that become jokes, e.g., Archie Bunker.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:18 PM

GUEST, far be it from me to defend Martin Gibson, and I'm sure he won't thank me for it, but that was pretty damned tacky!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM

Get a grip, he has insulted blacks, gays and women. It may be tacky but also justified, and do you REALLY think he cares?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:32 PM

I take it that some joeclone wisely deleted the tacky (actually much worse than tacky) message from GUEST that I was resonding to.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:35 PM

Don, I think the guest hit this one dead-center. Maybe you misread the post? A lot worse accusations have passed on this thread than "self-appointed sex police." Or are you responding to something that a clone has since made vanish?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:41 PM

SRS, that was not the post he was responding to. I saw it before it was deleted, and it certainly deserved to be IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:21 PM

But did it deserve to be deleted any more or less than all the race hating remarks MG has posted and have remained?

He of all people has no defence when people fight fire with fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: MaineDog
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:28 PM

It's not about marriage at all, its about money. Any issue that can polarize the opinions of people who have judgemental personality types can be hyped in both directions and used to raise funds, on both sides of the question. Can you think of a hotter button than this one? Hype it and get rich quick.
MD


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:29 PM

It's shower time, Martin, and no that is not water.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

GUEST, I will debate with Marty when he posts something worth debating (even if he can't seem to express himself without dipping into the septic tank), and I will tweak his nose for him (carefully disinfecting my fingers afterward), but when he debates from his usual postition, it doesn't raise the tone of the discussion to get down and wallow in the sewage with him.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Observing
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:47 PM

Wisely put,Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:05 PM

It seems to me we have enough examples of men beating their wives black and blue, of women poisoning their husbands, of drunken and drugged incompetents leaving their toddlers to fend for themselves for days at a time, that any notion of the sanctity of the institution of marriage based on blessed bonding of a man and a woman should have been abandoned a long time ago. Hell, you need a license to drive an automobile, but any pair of idiots with differing and functional genitals can conceive a child, regardless of whether or not they have the first idea of how to raise it.

I say if two people love each other enough to want to spend the rest of their lives together and they think they have the strength to do so, let them. If any two people, or any one person, is enough of an adult to take care of children properly, let them have children. I'm not gay, but I care less if someone else is, as long as they treat their mate, their children, and the rest of the freaking world with a modicum of tolerance, respect, and care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:47 PM

If the question is so silly, why did you answer it Ebbie?

I'm glad you did though, and I can see you've put a bit of heart and creative thinking into your answer. Way to go! :-)

I too like the idea - For all I know, I would have chosen/been chosen to be born at that time or in that place in order to help people examine and rectify their prejudices.

This has a most familiar ring to it! Harmonizes just perfectly with the closing musings of my Aug 4 6:39 post ... just below that silly, absurd, flaming, idiotic, non sequitur (that's "moot") question, remember?

- Again, I think the teenager I quoted above is right. If we waited for a decade or so until people are at least more comfortable with the idea of "uncloseted" gays, and homosexual marriage is old news, these children would be a lot less at risk.

But hey, perhaps there's a great line-up of Souls just waiting to be incarnated as the children of homosexuals in this oh-so-kindly-and-enlightened age (NOT!), in order to balance their karma or something.

In every cloud there's a ....



Gotta love those silver linings -- even better when they take a few days to shine through!

The poll looks pretty even so far - 3 "yes", 3 "no" and 1 "moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot!"

Thanks to all for your responses, and a very special thanks to Stilly.

daylia


PS Ebbie, if I should ever require or desire advice on how to serve myself, I'll be sure to ask ok?

Until then, please be assured that I already have the very finest of all Service(s).


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:29 PM

Lonesome EJ, that was very well said - just what I would have liked to have said, only I don't think I would have put it as well as you did.

I see GUEST was having another little go - having seen the original post, I noticed. Maybe nobody else did. Just as well, really. Maybe others were smarter than me and didn't comment - oh well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:47 PM

Let's expand the poll:

Assume you are 6 years old, an orphan, and waiting to be adopted. Would you rather be adopted by:

a) a middle-class heterosexual couple that are white
b) a middle-class gay couple who are white
c) a rich Polish couple who are white
d) a very rich Chinese couple
e) a relatively poor black couple in an okay neighborhood
f) a wealthy Jewish couple in an upscale condo
g) a Lithuanian jewelry engraver and a Mexican assembly line worker
h) a transexual hairdresser who wants to be Howard Stern
i) two hip hop singers of the opposite gender
j) two hip hop singers of the same gender
k) two people who are asexual (they don't have sex with anybody)
l) a woman from Schenectady and a goat
m) a billionaire who is into exhibitionism and has three mistresses
n) a member of the Bush family
o) two Croation gypsies
p) Chongo Chimp
q) Michael Jackson
r) A football coach and a stripper
s) 7 dwarves
t) the Wicked Witch of the North
u) the Reg Boys
v) Paw & Cletus
w) Penelope Rutledge and Winston Wellington-Jones
x) Locutus of Borg
y) Spaw
z) None of the above

There. That should do it. Pick which you would most like to be adopted by and which you would least like to be adopted by. This should give people enough to chew on and fight about to keep this thread going for weeks. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:29 PM

I do indeed always have the very finest of all Service(s) ... including these sensitive and insightful words above.

I myself hope for even better. Above, Ebbie says, "For all I know, I would have chosen/been chosen to be born at that time or in that place in order to help people examine and rectify their prejudices"

And in this I agree. Let's face it, our children are sadly often in the front lines of taking on the battles passed onto them by their parents-both positively and negatively.

The next generation (as your son has shown) may happily surprise us all.


:-)

I just re-read your hopeful post - Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much) Ellenpoly.

You too (again), Ebbie.

And you, E'O (Creator :-)


gointobedgratefulnowdaylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:35 PM

ROFL!

Thanks, LH. What, like Service(s) we all gets around here eh? :-)

Iz better votes in the mornin though ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:54 AM

I'm weirdly honored, Martin, that although we entirely disagree, (will never happen/will certainly happen) you liked my post. All right. But ACTUALLY, change is the norm for marriage as an institution, you know, because long ago, blah blah blah, etc. And also, consider that the blah blah blah, blah.

Ebbie, as I mentioned on a thread that got killed, someday I'd like to get into a good rift with you, as soon as I can find something I disagree with you about. And casually meet you naked in a locker room or something.

Hypothetical questions are kind of funny, yes. Something in me prevents me from being serious and heartfelt when contemplating the future or a hypothetical situation, unless I'm mad, and so I try to say what I seriously mean in a joke. Then it pisses me off nobody takes me seriously.

Ellenpolly, do people still make "bread"? Takes me back. That's all, I gotta book, and also, split.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:57 AM

Well-said, LeeJ and Ebbie and John P.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Two_bears
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:58 AM

I do not yet feel comfortable with the idea of two males or two females playing "mommy and daddy" for the next generation.

Daylia: It is not the ideal situation; but look at it from the child's point of view. I would certainly rather see the children adopted than in horrid foster homes where the foster family only care for the money they can get.

I think most progressive Christians would say that the authors of Leviticus and the letters attributed to Paul were products of their times - times when homosexuality and eating shellfish were considered

Joe: I agree with you. at the time scriptures are written; the scriptures MUST be cogent to the people writing it dowm of they would not record it, and if they were to record it while in trance; they would not apply it.

You have to look at the time in which it was written, and apply that filter.

The Jews (in the day of Leviticus) were always at war with their neighbors, and they needed a steady stream of new warriors. a homosexual relationship can not result in a child that could be a warrior in a few years.

It's been frustrating to be a Catholic recently, though. It seems the fundamentalists are getting the upper hand. Mother Angelica and

The Pope; has made several statements I disagree with.

At one time Priests were allowed to marry; but the church did not want to take care of the children and widows.

I disagree with the pope about birth control, capital punishment, etc.

ANL - 2B


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:43 AM

Well if it makes anyone feel any better, I do feel a slightly more comfortable with the idea of gays playing "mommy and daddy" for the next generation now. (Not that it really matters at all, except to me). Personally I still don't like it, I wouldn't choose such a situation for myself and therefore never would I inflict it on anyone else - least of all a helpless child - but then again, I'll never have to, right? This time around, anyway.

I think I understand exactly how such parental "wanna-bes" would feel. If I were a lesbian for example, and stuck with the fact that I couldn't have kids the natural way, I might be thinking something like "NOT FAIR! WHAT AN UNENLIGHTENED, IDIOTIC, "MOOT" BIGOT NATURE IS! It's so good there's all this new technology, all these orphaned unwanted babies and politically correct bandstanders out there these days - now I can still get exactly what I THINK I want!

I know any kid I'd procure has a 99% chance of enduring a lifetime of psychological difficulties and social abuse, possibly even physical violence because of me and my lifestyle. But lots of gays, blacks, Jews etc pay that price - so what? The kid might even end up committing suicide if it can't handle the pressures of having me as a parent. WHo cares? Lots of kids blow themselves away anyhow.

I want it, that's what's most important. I'm gonna "LOOOOOOVE" it so much and be so very "kind" and "respectful" to it! Wife beaters, child abusers, pedophiles, drunks, crack addicts etc have kids, therefore so can I. I'm gonna get exactly what I want, right now, and no one can take that right away from me."

Things are different on a spiritual level, though. It is my understanding that we choose our families and our life situations before we are born, for reasons which are often incomprehensible from the vantage point of the mortal human mind. This is always a free choice - we never "have" to do anything, or "be" anyone, or even incarnate here at all if we choose not to.

That's why I'm a bit more comfortable with the whole scenario now - I have nothing to say about what another might choose. It's not my responsibility, and none of my business.

Thanks for helping me "see the Light" at the end of this very dark tunnel, folks.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 08:19 AM

Little Hawk, I'd like most to be adopted by (m)- a billionaire who is into exhibitionism and has three mistresses.

I'd have lots of money to buy blindfolds so I wouldn't have to look at his exhibitions, plus he'd be so occupied with the three mistresses I'd be free to do whatever I pleased 24/7. Who could ask for more?

I'd like least to be adopted by (h) a transexual hairdresser who wants to be Howard Stern.

Booooring .... been there, done that, bought the T-shirt and moved on.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:22 AM

Daylia: It is not the ideal situation; but look at it from the child's point of view. I would certainly rather see the children adopted than in horrid foster homes where the foster family only care for the money they can get.

What's the difference between being raised in a foster home where the family cares only about the money they get for taking me in, and being raised by people who (very possibly) care more about their personal self-gratification than any "horrid" effects the exercise of their new-found "righta to parenthood" will (most likely) inflict on me?

Not much.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:33 AM

There's only one reasons that this issue has come up - because George bush (and now John howard in Oz) want to use it as a wedge issue to win votes.

they keep picking on minorities, making people hate them/afraid of them/despise them, to get votes.

and that is why young people in their teens are running away from home - because their parents are being taught to hate them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:01 AM

Daylia, you are making a lot of assumptions on just what another person may think upon adoption. Your own prejudice against lesbians, gays, and bi-sexuals, like me, is showing when you write such gross assumptions. We are not ogres who think only of self-gratification. And, for the record, lesbigays have been raising children for at least the past 20-30 years that I know of and done just as grand a job as the next couple.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:25 AM

daylia, I think that is called giving with one hand and taking away with the other. :) But that's OK, since you will not be in a situation where you will need to raise such children. (I'm sure you have many fine qualities; I would not want my children to be raised by you. )

Fred Miller, as long as we get to snap towels in that locker room! I have always wanted to learn how to do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:32 AM

kat, I am not making assumptions. I am speaking from my own personal experiences.

It may please you to know that I am just as "bisexual", "lesbigay" and into "self-gratification" as you or anyone else. I highly suspect that if human beings were left to their own devices, and not assailed from birth onwards with homophobic bigotry, the great majority of us would freely experiment with bisexuality.   And of these "experimenters" a few would choose make it their full-time mode d'etre, a few would make it part-time, and some would move on to other forms of sexual expression.

I chose not to physically engage in a bisexual lifestyle a few years after I hit puberty though, for what I consider to be excellent personal and social reasons. That was a very easy choice to make, for me. And as far as I know, that choice has done me no harm whatsoever.

If my sons knew anything about this, I'm sure they'd be most grateful. They had more than enough to cope with as it was.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:42 AM

Ebbie, I certainly would not choose to raise your (or anyone else's) kids either. Mine own are more than enough, thanks.

At least we agree on this!

straightbypersonalchoiceandoutoftheclosethereontheCat(hopefullyforthegreatestgoodofall)daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:51 PM

Hmmm. Well, I was never inclined toward sex with other males, although I remember having a vague sort of attraction toward certain such individuals back when I was maybe 14 or something like that. Basically, though, it was females I was interested in enough to do anything about it, and that has not changed.

Here's a little story that some may find interesting. When I was in college back in the 70's there was a fellow student I shall name "John". John was a bit of an oddball. He was extremely chatty, hyperactive, a bit fussy, very outspoken, and loved yakking with the girls endlessly. It was assumed he was flirting with them in some way, but he never actually got involved with any. Now in this college, there was a great deal of gaybashing on the part of most of the young men. It was a pretty standard thing. Why? Well, they learn it from their parents and their peers, and besides, I think they're subconsciously terrified that they themselves might have such tendencies.

Anyway, the thing most noticeable about John was his constant desire for attention. He ran for student council. He chaired meetings. He joined clubs and tried to be the leader. He tried to get people's attention any way he possibly could. When he ran for student council he put up a poster that was so absolutely enormous that I can't even figure how they got it up there on the side of one of the campus buildings.

Despite all this, John lost the election. This may have been because a lot of people found his compulsive nature a bit disturbing.

About 2/3 of the way through the year, John decided to "come out" about his homosexuality. He wrote an open letter to the school paper, and put up posters to let everyone know. Well, John had finally succeeded in getting the level of attention he wanted!

Those who were of a liberal persuasion, and wanted to show what good liberals they really were, rushed forward to congratulate John on his courage and assured him of their support.

Those who were stunned and horrified gathered in little groups, and muttered darkly about it, wondering if they should take some sort of violent action against the "fag" (their word, not mine).

When John would enter the cafeteria, the tension would simply ripple through the place.

And those who basically didn't care much one way or the other (like me) shrugged and went on with life as before. John was still John, and what difference did it really make whether he was gay or not?

For almost a month people obsessed about John being gay. It was bizarre. John, as far as I could see, was in 7th heaven. He was finally getting what he wanted. He was glowing. He found a boyfriend, and the two of them would enter the cafeteria gloriously, drawing glowering glances from the gay-hating contingent.

Well, after that month passed everything sort of died down. People stopped talking about it, started worrying about the Stanley Cup or something, and it became "yesterday's news". John was soon getting no more attention than he had been getting before, and no one was bothering him, threatening him, or congratulating him. He was no longer a hero or a goat, he was just John.

John got very depressed and about two months later he tried to kill himself by slitting his wrists. He did not succeed, but was hospitalized.

This story is not my comment on gays in general, it is not my evaluation of the gay choice or lifestyle, but it may serve to demonstrate why certain people become obsessed with a specific social issue and are in everyone else's face about it all the time, demanding a response. It's not because they are seeking justice...it's because they have a psychological problem of some kind and they are acting it out through a politically convenient issue. John was one of those people. It doesn't matter one way or another to me that he was gay, it matters to me that he was disturbed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:23 PM

Little Hawk, that's very insightful.

I also think there's a tendency of people to not try very hard to understand someone else and just go straight to demonizing them and calling them 'bigots'. Like the heterosexual person who, at some time in his or her life, was attracted to someone of the same sex and is scared of connecting with that side of themselves, a person may not want to 'walk a mile' in someone else's shoes in a discussion of this sort because they may find, that while they don't like the way the shoes look, and find them uncomfortable, they can actually wear them. I've never really seen the harm in trying though. Trying to understand a person is not the same as trying or wanting to be like them.

Kids who grow up being beaten by their parents are often surprised to find out that it isn't 'normal' and that other kids' parents don't give them the occasional black eye or punch mommy in the stomach when she doesn't have dinner ready on time. We base our opinions about people, and our stereotypes on what people around us think AND our own experiences. There's far more out there than what our friends think and what we've personally experienced, so maybe learning the facts and listening to different people is a good idea, whether they support or contradict our ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:41 PM

    What's the difference between being raised in a foster home where the family cares only about the money they get for taking me in, and being raised by people who (very possibly) care more about their personal self-gratification than any "horrid" effects the exercise of their new-found "righta to parenthood" will (most likely) inflict on me?


Katlaughing answered most of this pretty thoroughly a few posts back. But there are some other unfair assumptions in that statement also. Mature healthy adults as a rule keep their sexual activity private. Gay or straight. It's naive (or paranoid?) to assume that with gay couples it's "all sex all the time" or sex is somehow in-your-face if you're in their company at home. (The closest you might come close to accurate with that kind of generalization is when considering high school and college age people, regardless of gender or orientation--but even there, it's more like wishful thinking! Maturity is the solution to this situation.)

The sexual-gratification-at-any-cost issue comes in when you're if you're layering in questions of mental health problems, the catch-all term "devience" and the still not-well-understood "sex addiction." Those are separate issues affecting what is certainly a small percentage of straights and gays.

Studies have shown that humans past a certain youthful period in their lives think about sex a lot. But that doesn't mean the thought is acted upon every time it occurs. Gay or straight or bisexual.

Finally, we have all heard stories about foster homes from hell. But most of them are good places and are the homes of people who truly want to help children. Most of them spend money out of their own pockets above and beyond any reimbursement the state makes to cover the expenses of caring for each child. This was the conclusion my mother, an MSW, reached with the many foster families she worked with over the years in the Aid for Dependent Children program with the state where she worked.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:58 PM

Debate the issue forever if you like.

It's still going to be accepted legally and socially eventually. People better learn to deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 02:45 PM

Now, unless I missed it somewhere, here is an important point that no one seems to have considered: a pretty large number of children are accidents. It isn't necessarily that they are not wanted, but all too frequently they are not wanted now. And sometimes they are not wanted at all, and there are occasions where the resulting resentment by one or more of the parents leads to child and/or spousal abuse. Not a nice atmosphere to grow up in.

When a gay or lesbian couple adopt a child, it's not an accident. You can be sure that the child will grow up in a home where he or she is wanted.

Don Firth

P. S.:   Now, I'm quite sure that there is someone around who will try to do a raunchy play on the word "wanted," but that, I think, is that person's idea, not the idea or intent of the gay or Lesbian couple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 03:43 PM

Stilly, where do you see that katlaughing "answered" any of the quote above? The quote is not a question. It does not require an "answer". Nor is it an "assumption", as kat postulates.

It is a statement; a (grim) hypothetical situation depicting a homosexual "family" created in response to Two Bear's (grim) hypothetical situation depicting a foster home. And it is, unfortunately, a hypothetical situation formed of a lifetime of personal experience.

Sexual self-gratification is not the only form of self-gratification, Stilly. The gratification of the personal, innate biological urges toward reproduction, of "environmental" urges toward the personal / social benefits and status of parenthood -- these are examples of other forms of self-gratification.

Please understand that the hypothetical situation created in response to Two Bears post portrays these "parental", not to be confused with sexual, forms of self-gratification:

... being raised by people who (very possibly) care more about their personal self-gratification than any "horrid" effects the exercise of their new-found "right" to parenthood will (most likely) inflict on me?

What these hypothetical parents might hypothetically do / not do in their hypothetically gratifying /ungratifying hypothetical beds is a moot point and of no interest, to me anyway.

Jeri and LH, thank you very much for your insights.

daylia


PS Here's another example of non-sexual self-gratification



moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot!



Ahhhhhhh   ....    gotta light?    :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 04:28 PM

As this discussion is getting nowhere, I had decided to move on.

However,I have just watched part of a TV show, which involves a group of homo sexuals who comment on the (poor In their opinion) dress sense and appearance of "Straight" men.
The point of the programme is apparently to show that the homosexuals have an artistic eye for dress and hairstyles, while straight people a basically slobs.
I find this type of programme patronising in the extreme, and is an example of what I mean when I say there is an agenda behind this "gay culture".
If this was a programme showing a group of straight people criticising homo sexuals for being camp or limp wristed, the PC legions on Mudcat would be screaming blue murder.

The name of the show is "Queer eye for the straight guy".   I believe there is also an American version of the show.
   No wriggling please ...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 04:32 PM

Don, that is a very good point.

My question is, do people's personal "wants" and "urges" toward parental forms of self-gratification outweigh the heavy and very real emotional, psychological, social and physical costs to children of "growing up gay" in ANY way, in this culture today?

Is it justifiable to inflict those costs on children, when you could "just say no" - at least to the adoption question?

Denying or minimizing the gay "price tag" may help some of you feel better, but in reality it is highly irresponsible and benefits no one.

Cluin, you're right. There's really no point in belabouring the issue. It's happening, right now - and will continue to happen no matter what any of us say or do or think. So I guess I better just buck up and get used to it. :-(


daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 04:45 PM

Oops, that quote IS a question after all! Pardon me, Stilly, and "answer" away.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:01 PM

Tried to post this a couple of hours ago...trying again:

daylia, you posted:

I think I understand exactly how such parental "wanna-bes" would feel. If I were a lesbian for example, and stuck with the fact that I couldn't have kids the natural way, I might be thinking something like "NOT FAIR! WHAT AN UNENLIGHTENED, IDIOTIC, "MOOT" BIGOT NATURE IS! It's so good there's all this new technology, all these orphaned unwanted babies and politically correct bandstanders out there these days - now I can still get exactly what I THINK I want!

I know any kid I'd procure has a 99% chance of enduring a lifetime of psychological difficulties and social abuse, possibly even physical violence because of me and my lifestyle. But lots of gays, blacks, Jews etc pay that price - so what? The kid might even end up committing suicide if it can't handle the pressures of having me as a parent. WHo cares? Lots of kids blow themselves away anyhow.

I want it, that's what's most important. I'm gonna "LOOOOOOVE" it so much and be so very "kind" and "respectful" to it! Wife beaters, child abusers, pedophiles, drunks, crack addicts etc have kids, therefore so can I. I'm gonna get exactly what I want, right now, and no one can take that right away from me."


You later say that hypothetical situation is based on a lifetime of experience. It seems it has been a very narrow experience, judging from my own lifetime of experience. I have never known any lesbians who have "thought" that way about wanting a child or not.

Cluin...right on!

Ake: Lighten up a little, willya? **bg** Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is an American tv show and it is all tongue-in-cheek. The gays camp it up for the fun of it. The straight guys sign up for it, obviously enjoy it and are in the mighty majority, so it is not seen as threatening. And, it has helped to break down some barriers for straight guys in liberating them to openly care about their personal appearance, including facial, hair, and nail care without seeming *swishy!*


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:19 PM

Well, daylia, I reiterate a point that I made earlier about the fellows I know who adopted the two kids from the Chinese orphanage. No matter what psychological problems the boys may develop because they have two fathers instead of a mother and a father (and that remains to be established), they are certainly much better life now than they would have if they'd been left in the orphanage.

Their two fathers make sure the boys have plenty of association with women both in the home and outside, and they're fully aware of the problems the boys may face from outside the family, and are perfectly capable of teaching the boys how to cope with them. I believe that the main source of any potential psychological problems would ultimately be caused by people outside the family who "view with alarm," from kids who have learned bigotry from their parents, and those elements of society that feel they have a right to meddle in other peoples' lives.

Years ago, a friend of mine responded to a racist's argument, "Would you want your daughter to marry one!??" by saying, "No, not as long as she and her husband would be persecuted by bigots like you." The problem, of course, is not an interracial marriage—or a child having two parents of the same gender—the problem is the bigot, the meddler, and the opinionated.

The boys have a good home and loving parents. There are millions of children in this world who should be so lucky.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:35 PM

Oh, yes! And re:   Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, Barbara and I have watched the show a couple of times. It's notable that the straight guys start out looking pretty slobby, but when the gays get finished with them, there is a huge improvement in their appearance. It's not because gays have an inherently better style sense, it's because many gays tend to pay more attention to style, whereas many straight guys have all the style sense of a Visigoth after a long, hard day of pillaging.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

Akenaton, seriously, I think that's just a pop-culture fad that probably has the same agenda as any other, to be watched, to be talked about, to be the happening thing. I'm not sure gays conceived it produced it or care if they did or not, I don't get around to watching it. Ellen Degeneres probably sparked the trend, and t.v. execs play it out til it's very very tired, like anything else they do. What's the agenda behind big doofus guys married to cute smart women in sit-coms? What's the agenda behind pro-wrestling? It's just t.v. I think.

I really can't muster much opinion on this, but I find it interesting how much feeling there is, and enjoy the posts. Anybody can challenge the logic of people's feelings, like the bible consistency argument in the first post, but robot-logic may be misplaced, and sound petulant and childish. Sexism is rampant in nature, so does the natural-heterosexual argument lend itself to "natural" male dominance? Who really cares if it does? Screw it.
   Do we have to have opinions about everything? Do we have to believe that, say, all races are equal? I'm supposed to think that, I've heard. Can I just not care whether they are or not--what would I do with that information if I had the omniscience to really have it? Nothing much, nothing practical. I believe as a matter of will, as the only sane decision of human policy, that's all.
   I don't care if homosexuality is a choice or hereditary, if someone who feels it tells me one, then the other, I'll take their word every time, either way, and I don't have to like it or dislike it. I'm a little more interested in my own pathological hetero issues and obsessions--that stuff I have to deal with. What don't you like about straight marriage?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 01:02 AM

    My question is, do people's personal "wants" and "urges" toward parental forms of self-gratification outweigh the heavy and very real emotional, psychological, social and physical costs to children of "growing up gay" in ANY way, in this culture today?


So if a straight couple acts like they don't really want a child, but when it comes along, they pull up their socks and admit that they're in for the long haul it's okay? That someone who really really really really wants children is somehow overburdoned with that desire to the point that they actually won't make a good parent? You haven't been listening--the "costs" are minimal if the household is loving and respectful. Are you afraid that gay parents might try to unduly influence their children to be gay instead of straight? Daylia, it's time to stop worrying about the "motives" behind gay adoptions--any time a child is wanted, then there is a good chance that that child will thrive in that environment.

As to programs like "Queen Eye" and such--I see that as on a par with "While You Were Out" and "Changing Space"--they drive me nuts to watch, and if my family ever pulled a stunt like having a tv crew come in to trash the house, I'll murder them all. It's popular culture televison--there are little snippits we can learn from, but mostly viewers are just watching for that micro-expression at the end of the program to see if the recipient of such largess is appalled and pissed off.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 01:27 AM

Well we all know that the Homosexual Agenda is to build an army. The only reason they want to adopt the children is to create more gays and lesbians like themselves and to further there evil agenda. Soon their army will be big enough to take over the world!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 01:37 AM

Daylia,

Your arguments are still suffering from the same logical flaws that I pointed out before and that you have not answered.

1) you use data about children who are gay, and apply them to children whose PARENTS are gay. You have shown no evidence of any abuse, violence, or ostracism of children whose PARENTS are gay, nor have you shown that they have a more difficult life.

2) You mock me for pointing out that children of other kinds of parents may find life tough too, with your bullshit about



I know any kid I'd procure has a 99% chance of enduring a lifetime of psychological difficulties and social abuse, possibly even
physical violence because of me and my lifestyle. But lots of gays, blacks, Jews etc pay that price - so what? The kid might
even end up committing suicide if it can't handle the pressures of having me as a parent. WHo cares? Lots of kids blow
themselves away anyhow.

I want it, that's what's most important. I'm gonna "LOOOOOOVE" it so much and be so very "kind" and "respectful" to it!
Wife beaters, child abusers, pedophiles, drunks, crack addicts etc have kids, therefore so can I. I'm gonna get exactly what I
want, right now, and no one can take that right away from me."


But turn this around.

Say, for example, that I am black. Because of this, I know any kid I'd procure has a 99% chance of enduring a lifetime of psychological difficulties and social abuse, possibly even
physical violence because of me and my lifestyle. But lots of gays, Jews etc pay that price - so what? The kid might
even end up committing suicide if it can't handle the pressures of having me as a parent. WHo cares? Lots of kids blow
themselves away anyhow.

I want it, that's what's most important. I'm gonna "LOOOOOOVE" it so much and be so very "kind" and "respectful" to it!
Wife beaters, child abusers, pedophiles, drunks, crack addicts etc have kids, therefore so can I. I'm gonna get exactly what I
want, right now, and no one can take that right away from me."

Your argument still applies to blacks, and any other stigmatized group, just as mich as it does to gays. By condeming such parents as selfish, you are condemning every black parent, Jewish parent, and ethnic minority parent.

I did not think you were a bigot before. Now I DO think you are a bigot.

Finally, why is it okay for another kind of couple to bring a child into this world just because of their Parental wants and needs, but not gay couples? In fact, this is the ONLY good reason to have children: because you really want them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Brother
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 02:25 AM

Just think about it, if everyone in the world would marry same sex partners it would be the end of the world after just one generation. Just an observation, don't attack me. - LB


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,NERD
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 02:56 AM

Er, Little Brother,

You are wrong. But I mean that in a non-attacking kind of a way.

Here's what I mean: As long as women want to have children and men are willing to donate sperm (either through sperm banks or by "direct deposit": straight sex), the human race can survive without any opposite-sex marriages and even without any straight people. If everyone were gay and married to other gays, but they were also willing to endure straight sex outside of their marriages in order to have children, the species would continue.

In fact, marriages are not necessary at all to the perpetuation of the species. No other animal species gets married at all, and few of them are even monogamous, but many of them manage to stick around.

I take that back. Some members of other species are married. I know a dude who went to vegas and had his cat married to his dog. I wonder if they'll adopt?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:56 AM

. . . and then there's Esmeralda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:58 AM

Nobody's noticed. The emporer's naked. Marriage is 'all in the mind, ya know'. As for me & my house, shackin'-up is all I want to do & that w/ the proper opposit. Not easy, but you can't imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:24 AM

People, you've all made some very good points here. Thank you.

I know my "imaginings" depict a worst-case scenario - that's what I intended though. That "worst-case scenario" is based on a lifetime of experience (including my own as a very young teen) with homosexuals and bisexuals kids and adults, as well as with people who have or procure kids for very questionable reasons.

I have never yet personally known a gay person who adopted or otherwise procured a child. But I have known so many sickly, unhappy, socially "handicapped" homosexuals and bisexuals. :-( The truth is, I've only known one pair of homosexuals who seemed happy and healthy and to really love each other - and even that pair split up about 6 months after I met them. That was 2 years ago, and they've each been in and out of a few new relationships since.

And over the years they've lost their gay friends to AIDS on a regular basis. One gay I know right now is 20 years old, and so far he's watched 3 of his friends - including one of his (many) partners - die of AIDS. He's skinny and sickly and set upon, wears the same clothes every day for months, has a grade 9 education and works at a minimum-wage job, asks me to help him with HUNA healing methods for his "rectal rips" quite often (which I do), still benefits from being (gently) reminded to shower and even to feed himself.

He keeps telling me he's gonna marry his 22 year old boyfriend in a couple months, and they want LOTS of kids! When he talks like that, I just get filled with dread and clam right up.

What can I say? He's got the "right"! And what's wrong with me that I can't wholeheartedly celebrate his plans? Must be bigotry, I guess.

Bigot that I am, in all honesty I would entrust NONE of the gay or bisexual people I've known with a child. I'm glad some of you have known others who are more capable and well-adjusted.

I have known miserable teenage girls in foster homes, where the parents WERE only out for the money, and the kids were being sexually interfered with on a regular basis by older male members of that foster family. :-(

I have known a crack-addicted alcoholic couple who made sure they popped a new (dirty and neglected) kid out every 4-5 years so they could stay on the dole (and no I'm not kidding or exaggerating - that's what they told me, and I watched it happen).

I have known a 4-week old infant who died of overexposure and neglect, because it's 16-yr single mother would "forget" to feed it, dress it up like a new dolly instead and stroll it all over town in 30 below weather, to show it off to her friends at the various high schools. This girl had the baby because she wanted to quit school, get out of her parent's house and go on social benefits. She spent her welfare cheques on a fur coat, leather boots and partying, and that baby was sleeping on a blanket on the concrete floor in her basement apartment - in February.

She took that baby home without anyone saying "boo", no public health people had ever been in to check on her or the baby (even though they knew she was only 16 and alone), and when it died the coroner simply marked "crib death" on the death certificate. No autopsy was ever done - and truthfully, no-one really cared.

The girl and her family were oh-so-proud of the baby's pretty funeral dress, showing off the pictures of the funeral to everyone who would look. I still feel sick and wanna go strangle more than a few STUPID PEOPLE when I think about it ... pardon me for sounding so un-loving. *sigh*

So yes, I have seen kids procured only for "parental self-gratification" reasons, and suffer and die becuase of it. I'm sorry if it seems so unreasonable that I would imagine that gay people might be much the same as straight people when it comes to reasons for wanting a baby, or that the "gay factor" would most likely make such a situation even worse for the child. (I don't mean ALL straight or gay people, of course, but as far as I'm concerned putting even ONE child at risk is too much).

But maybe my "bigotry and prejudice" is talking again, I don;t know. THe 20yr old gay friend I told you about above has really put me on the spot a few times over the last month or so. I've been trying very hard to sort out my thoughts and feelings about this so I can keep looking him in the eye. I do really like him, he's a musician and really quite brilliant - an exceptional young man in many ways.

I'm finding this very difficult :-( so thank you all for your ideas and opinions. He's really the reason I started posting on this thread in the first place.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:14 AM

Nerd, I wish that you could stay on topic and stop confusing the issue when you address my posts. This discussion is not about blacks or Jews etc, it's about gays, gay parents and what life might be like for any kids they might procure.

There are HUGE differences between blacks/Jews etc as a group and gays as a group, as you probably know - so why do you keep sidetracking the issue? These tactics just waste eveyone's time and divert attention from the topic at hand.

Do you not want to look at it at all? Or are you just trying to make me look like fool because I have different experiences, feelings and opinions than your own? Are you perhaps a bit "bigoted" yourself - against anyone like me who doesn't think or feel exactly like you do?

I'm asking because I don't know - I don't know you from a hole in the ground. Therefore I cannot make valid judgements about you at all - and even if I did know you quite well, I still don't have the "right" to judge you, or anyone else for that matter. I only wish you'd do the same, and refrain from making ill-conceived, inappropriate and invalid personal judgements about me - or any other poster here.

Please read Jeri's last post above, and give it some careful consideration. I can see you have absolutely no respect for me or anything I might say, but you might be more open to listening to Jeri.


daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:33 AM

Whoo--good typo--last night the 'cat was so slow that I thought I'd caught it before it went through. Freudian slips are always interesting--"Queer Eye" came out "Queen Eye" !! My friend in NYC (mentioned above) would say ROFLMAO! Now back to the messages since then (perhaps one of the sharp Mudcat proof readers already caught it?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:53 AM

I'm honored, Daylia.

I don't think there's a huge difference between sexual orientation and race. Neither factor is a matter of choice and both race and sexual orientation are excuses for societies to treat people badly.

I met a South African woman once, who was deathly afraid of apartheid ending. She said all the Black people she'd ever met were rude and angry. I asked her "If you were treated like they'd been, wouldn't you tend to be a bit rude and angry at the people who treated you that way?" She asked if Blacks in America were like that. I told her some of the ones who grew up poor and without hope were, but most I'd met were as good or back as her or me, likely because they had the same opportunities we did. I think people ought to have opportunities to be as good they CAN be.

If all the gay people you've met have had problems, think about the possibility they're not representative of ALL gay people. As for your 20 year-old friend who wants to get married and have lots of kids - does his gayness really have anything to do with that? Immaturity and impulsiveness are universal human possibilities.

I'm guessing you work or live in a place that presents you with some pretty bad examples of parents of all types. There are good examples, but you don't come into contact with them. I think whether or not a person should adopt a kid should be based on that individual's potential for being a good parent, and sexual orientation shouldn't be a factor. The individual has to have the right to be considered first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM

Daylia, you're a fine one to lecture anyone about staying on the page! First you admonish Nerd: "Nerd, I wish that you could stay on topic and stop confusing the issue when you address my posts. This discussion is not about blacks or Jews etc, it's about gays, gay parents and what life might be like for any kids they might procure." Then, despite the fact that we're talking about healthy, stable, loving couples wanting to adopt children, you come up with this cock-eyed catalog of "wrongs" against children (that you now seem to be labeling "procurement"--but in most circles "procurement" implies prostitution in some form--is that where you're headed next?)

  • I have never yet personally known a gay person who adopted or otherwise procured a child. But I have known so many sickly, unhappy, socially "handicapped" homosexuals and bisexuals.

  • And over the years they've lost their gay friends to AIDS on a regular basis. One gay I know right now is 20 years old, and so far he's watched 3 of his friends - including one of his (many) partners - die of AIDS. He's skinny and sickly and set upon, wears the same clothes every day for months, has a grade 9 education and works at a minimum-wage job, asks me to help him with HUNA healing methods for his "rectal rips" quite often (which I do), still benefits from being (gently) reminded to shower and even to feed himself.

    He keeps telling me he's gonna marry his 22 year old boyfriend in a couple months, and they want LOTS of kids! When he talks like that, I just get filled with dread and clam right up.

  • I have known miserable teenage girls in foster homes, where the parents WERE only out for the money, and the kids were being sexually interfered with on a regular basis by older male members of that foster family.

  • I have known a 4-week old infant who died of overexposure and neglect, because it's 16-yr single mother would "forget" to feed it, dress it up like a new dolly instead and stroll it all over town in 30 below weather, to show it off to her friends at the various high schools. This girl had the baby because she wanted to quit school, get out of her parent's house and go on social benefits.

  • So yes, I have seen kids procured only for "parental self-gratification" reasons, and suffer and die becuase of it. I'm sorry if it seems so unreasonable that I would imagine that gay people might be much the same as straight people when it comes to reasons for wanting a baby, or that the "gay factor" would most likely make such a situation even worse for the child. (I don't mean ALL straight or gay people, of course, but as far as I'm concerned putting even ONE child at risk is too much).

    You're describing low- or non-functioning people. It sounds like you've made a tour of the local homeless shelter. Take a good survey and you'll find mentally ill people from all cultural walks of life there, yet you're reporting on a small slice of that population (and now you've broadened your zone to include uneducated selfish teenaged girls--how did you manage that odd leap of logic?)

    After making his case about the corrupt cases that Others make when opposing gay marriage, John Peekstok concluded:

      So this is what it comes down to: You don't like gay marriage because of personal revulsion. Somewhere deep inside you have enough sense to know that you can't get something outlawed in America because it turns you off. So you come up with all these other religious, traditional, public safety sort of reasons. The problem is, these other reasons don't stand up to any scrutiny. So why not just give it up and admit that there are people around who are different than you and who gross you out, and that in America part of the deal is that you have to put up with them?


    I'd say you're living up to this assessment as you seek ways to confuse and distract and drag in non-sequitur elements to this argument that you can't possibly win.

    It's past time to move on to other threads--I've frittered away too much ink here. The usual suspects responded to the discussion, and the usual outcomes have been acheived.

    SRS


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 12:32 PM

    I don't think there's a huge difference between sexual orientation and race. Neither factor is a matter of choice ...

    I cannot agree with this, Jeri. I am a human being. My sexual orientation is and always was a matter of choice, as I explained to kat above -

    ... I am just as "bisexual", "lesbigay" and into "self-gratification" as you or anyone else ...

    I chose not to physically engage in a bisexual lifestyle a few years after I hit puberty though, for what I consider to be excellent personal and social reasons. That was a very easy choice to make, for me. And as far as I know, that choice has done me no harm whatsoever.



    I am straight by personal choice, Jeri. I made that choice in adolescence, and I could change it at any time if I felt so inclined.

    Surely I am not the only human being who chose and continues to choose their sexual orientation and lifestyle!!


    I think whether or not a person should adopt a kid should be based on that individual's potential for being a good parent, and sexual orientation shouldn't be a factor. The individual has to have the right to be considered first.


    The individual traits of adoptive parents should of course be carefully screened and considered first. And whether people like it or not, sexual orientation and lifestyle is now and will very likely continue to be an important "personal variable" - a weighty causal or determining factor in the state of anybody's physical / emotional / social health and well-being.

    The 20yr old you've referred to is an excellent example of this.

    As I said to Don above,

    Denying or minimizing the gay "price tag" may help some of you feel better, but in reality it is highly irresponsible and benefits no one.

    Again, I am very glad there are people out there who are doing better than the ones I know and have known. And certainly the people I've known are not exactly the same as all people everywhere!

    But I do live in exactly the same world as you do, Jeri, near a quite "representative" small city here in Ontario. I am a teacher, a parent, a co-worker, a volunteer, a neighbour, a musician, an aunt and more. None of these occupations are what I consider to be highly unique.

    Sorry, I just don't see what exactly makes my observations and experiences any less "representative" than anyone else's.

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:32 PM

    It does seem to me, daylia, that your gay and Lesbian acquaintances are a collection of pretty dysfunctional people. The community in which you live, particularly if it is small, may be a major factor in this.

    I live in Seattle, which is a city of approximately half a million people within the city limits, but with a population of nearly three million if you include the suburbs such as Lake City, Shoreline, Burien, Bellevue, and Renton, all within ten to twenty minutes' drive. This area has something of a reputation for being liberal; if not always politically liberal, at least socially liberal. There is, of course, prejudice against gays and Lesbians, but there is also a fairly high level of acceptance of people with different life-styles. As an indicator of this, there are several churches in and around the city (including the one I often attend) that are signatories to the "Reconciled in Christ" policy which is paraphrase in my church's "Affirmation of Welcome":
    We affirm with the apostle Paul that in Christ "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female" (Galatians 3:28). Christ has made us one. . . . " Although our world can seem to be a place of alienation and brokenness, Christ calls us to reconciliation and wholeness. We are challenged by Christ to care for, to love, to understand, and to listen to each other, regardless of our race, age, gender, marital status, physical and mental abilities, sexual/affectional orientation [emphasis mine], national origin or economic status. We celebrate the special gifts that each has to bring. All people are welcome within the membership of Central Lutheran Church. . . .
    This is one of a number of churches that is perfectly willing to conduct commitment or marriage ceremonies for same sex couples, and indeed has done so several times. A number of gay men and Lesbian women who, thankful for finding a church in which their gender orientation is considered irrelevant, have thrown themselves into church activities with such enthusiasm and vigor that this small, inner-city church's social programs are making a real difference in the community (serving the homeless, the hungry, the mentally ill, wherever there is a need). The two men of whom I spoke belong to this church, and this is how I met them and know of their adoption of the two boys. I see the boys almost every Sunday. They are in the church's Sunday school. Incidentally, the church has two pastors. One is a young woman, the other a very large black man who wears an earring. I should also note for the record that this is not a "gay church." The majority of members are straight. It is a mainline (ELCA) Lutheran church and a member in good standing of the Pacific Northwest Synod.

    This may be something of a microcosm, but I think there is a macro-lesson to be learned here:   given a modicum of acceptance—which is to say, given half a chance to live a normal life, unhassled by the wider social climate within which they live—gays and Lesbians are just like anybody else.

    Also just for the record, as far as my own sexual orientation is concerned, it was never a matter of choice. I am heterosexual, have always been (from the time I first learned about sex on, there was never a question in my mind—or body), and I have been happily married for nearly three decades. I do not find the idea of intimate sexual relations with a member of my own sex distasteful or "disgusting," the idea just does not appeal to me. It doesn't turn me on and I am not interested in such a relationship. But my orientation is mine, and I have no right to impose my life-style on someone else any more than they have a right to impose theirs on me. I consider that one of the basic freedoms.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:44 PM

    Incidentally, a few years ago, I was discussing the matter of choice of sexual orientation with a gay friend of mine whom I met at the aforementioned church. He said that for him, it was never a matter of choice any more than my being straight was for me. By the time he reached puberty, he knew he was "different." He liked girls, but he wasn't sexually attracted to them, he was attracted to boys.

    He made what I consider a very telling statement. He said, "When you consider all the trouble, all the bigotry and prejudice that homosexuals face, sometimes including physical violence or actually getting killed, who, in his right mind, would ever choose to be one? Choice? No, I never had a choice."

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Justa Picker
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

    So Kendall, last week when we were having sex in the back seat of your car, you told me your name was Woody?

    What's the deal? :-)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:23 PM

    It does seem to me, daylia, that your gay and Lesbian acquaintances are a collection of pretty dysfunctional people

    I agree. But they certainly aren't the only dysfunctional people I've known!

    Funny, Don, I was just sitting here thinking about something the 20yr old gay friend I mentioned before told me a couple weeks ago.

    He said that while he'd been lured into a gay lifestyle at age 13 (by older males who "pimped" him and employed him as a drug runner on the streets of Toronto for a few years), he'd also had several short relationships with females, including one which lasted several months and resulted in an aborted pregnancy.

    Since then, he says, he's chosen to be exclusively gay, simply because he likes sex with men better than sex with women. He says it's less work. (He's probably right)   

    The person "John" whom LH speaks about in his post above appears to have chosen a gay lifestyle as well.

    Maybe sexual orientation is a more of a choice for some than it is for others. It was certainly a choice - and a very easy one - for me.

    In any case, adult human beings do (in most cases) freely and consciously choose to engage or not to engage in any type of physical/sexual behavior or lifestyle, quite independently of innate biological "urges. Exceptions to this would be incidences of sexual abuse or rape.   

    Even at age 13, my friend says his behaviors were a "free choice". He quit school and chose to leave his parent's home because there was so much money to be made on the street in the sex-and-drug industry. And though his story is certainly not "representative" of all gays I don't think it's uncommon, and I do think it's worth some consideration.

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: akenaton
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:44 PM

    Well.. This thread has sure changed in tone.

    A few days ago the few who gave an alternative view from the PC non thinkers,were being hounded off the site as "bigots".

    I joined this site because I thought folkies would have enough sense to disregard the politically correct nonesense were fed by most of the media.
    How wrong I was,there's little more depth here than any other internet chat forum.
    We may be able to communicate in words of more than one syllable,but the content is often cliched PC crap.
    Too much conventional thinking on this forum.

    Daylia.. your a brave lass to take on these people and come out with your argument intact and your spirit unbroken.
    Before Ellenpoly took her "brainstorm", she said something I do agree with, "We would probably be better in a tribal society".
    The tensions of conventional marriage ,too often impact badly on the children, and I would presume the tensions in homosexual marriage would be many times worse.

    It should be the good of the children we consider before anything else,they are our only hope for a better and more loving world ...Ake


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Cluin
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:49 PM

    Then there's this couple.

    One thing to be said about marriage... it's the leading cause of divorce.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:24 PM

    Way back in the Fifties, the findings of the Kinsey Reports indicated that gender orientation seems to fall on a spectrum. The graphs (for males and for females) in the books showed that eight to twelve percent of each sex occupied the gay or Lesbian side of the spectrum. Lots of people had a hissy-fit over this—the idea that around ten percent of the population was fundamentally homosexual, in some circles, was "unacceptable," and Kinsey was roundly excoriated for his research. But that does not invalidate the research. However, as I recall, there was a "grey area" on each chart between the confirmed no-choice heterosexual and the no-choice homosexual where the so-called "bi-sexual" was to be found. These folks did seem to have a choice. So apparently it isn't cut-and-dried.

    But the idea that heterosexuality or homosexuality is a choice for everybody is not upheld by research (including a lot of research much more recent than Kinsey's). In fact, except for that small band of males and small band of females, most research shows that gender orientation is not a choice.

    Also, recent brain research has indicated a minute, but apparently important difference in the hypothalamuses of heterosexuals and homosexuals of both sexes. Theory has it that the important factor is the timing of the release of male and female hormones in utero as the fetus is developing. Hence, sexual orientation is not hereditary, it is congenital.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Rapparee
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:44 PM

    Well, I don't really care if you're straight or gay or none of the above. If two people want to make such a commitment of love as marriage is, let 'em.

    But like heterosexual marriage, it shouldn't be undertaken at all unless both parties are willing to make the changes and sacrifices a successful marriage requires.

    As for obtaining the "blessings of the church upon the union" -- that's up to the various churches.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Amos
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 07:16 PM

    Don, thanks for the knowledgeable summary. I concuir with Rapair ein general; but I feel civil states and and civil organization more sophisticated than a tribe should be ready and willing to embrace the individual regardless of his place on the sexual or political spectrum or gender or religion either for that matter.

    There are some things that are just individual issues no matter HOW grabby and interferesome a state wants to get.


    A


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:06 PM

    I find the tone of this thread hilarious, and am printing it out for reference, because I have an amateur interest in writing comedy. The funny part is the pseudo-logic we make up as an armature for our unexamined feelings. We want it to make sense, and grab at anything, no matter how odd, hypothetical, and unprincipled. Albert Brooks did a lot with this as a comedic latzi, I think.

       Daylia, I wouldn't presume to challenge you about your own experience, but why in the world would you assume it must be the same for others? I know a cute guy when I see one, but as a sexual choice, sure, I could also choose to eat hay, or graze like a cow--I COULD, but like you I find it very easy to "choose" otherwise. And what if it is a choice? So what? What does that equal?

    Here's Akenaton still calling anyone who doesn't share his view a PC non-thinker, and mentioning that he would presume things are worse for gay parenting. Ake--why exactly is what you presume so much richer and deeper than everyone else's pc non-thoughts? Is it because SOME people are going to be judgmental? Drat it, but yes you're right, some people are. So gays should forget it already. Dude.

    I do know a gay couple with kids but don't see the point in offering up particular people to spin goof-ball generalizations and self-deluding syllogisms. I'm not taking sides about it, exactly, I just like to see what people find handy to use to climb up and look down on humanity, with such keen judgement and other-worldly wisdom. It's a hoot.

    The komodo dragon would seem to be doomed, since it likes to eat its young, but life goes on somehow. Somehow an egg-babe with no more wit than a rock outsmarts the adult of the species. From this one might infer adult komodos can reason, and thus fool themselves.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:42 PM

    It's still not my business. I am a latent heterosexual and I expect I shall remain so. No amount of logic or reason or argument will change that. As Fred said, I too recognize good-looking men when I see them. However, they do little to make me feel anything in relation to sexuality. Besides, sex is just one aspect of love. It ain't the whole ball of wax. Lotsa people seem to be hung up on that--the sex part that is.

    Many of the arguments put forth in this thread are the same arguments that were put forth years ago to do with so-called mixed marriages. "Oooh, can't have that. The children will suffer." Hot flash here. People suffer throughout life. It's part of the package for most of us. However, none suffer so much as those who don't experience love--however that's interpreted. Homosexuality is not my choice, but then again, neither was heterosexuality. When children are well cared for, loved and nurtured, I don't really give a damn who's doing that. It's a good thing. IMHO.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:53 PM

    You know, there's something that happens in these kind of discussions, and it interferes with the process. This is it:

    Due to an initial disagreement over some specific issue a particular Mudcatter (or several Mudcatters) decide that someone else on the forum is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG (due to something they said in a particular post)...and they henceforth pounce on each succeeding post by that person with little or no goodwill, no real intent to understand what the person said, but a set resolve to use it to continue proving how wrong and completely off the beam that person is. This is not conducive to a healthy dialogue. :-)

    It becomes emotional lockstep rather than a serious effort to discuss things fairly. It becomes a habit.

    Now, some people did that to Akenaton a long way back in this thread...and some are doing it to daylia every time she posts. I won't name names. :-)

    Take another look, people. I know daylia. She is a very sensible, very likeable person who has had a lot of tough experience with the down side of life, yet gotten through it in one piece somehow, and raised 3 sons who have turned out to be really nice people without the help of a reliable partner, and done it all by teaching piano lessons to a great many young students (she is a superb piano player and instructor). She is not the bigoted figure of your fantasies, regardless of whether or not you happen to disagree with something she said in some post earlier in this thread. She does not deserve to be on trial here.

    And neither is Akenaton the bigoted person he has been accused of being, as far as I can see, having read his posts with some attention.

    In other words, folks, you're crying wolf here. It's a pity, because there ARE real bigots and gaybashers out there whom you could be directing all this ire towards instead of at daylia and/or Akenaton.

    I also know the 20 year old gay man that daylia spoke of, and he is indeed brilliant in a number of respects, very likeable, and pretty naive at this point in his general expectations of life. That's common in 20 year olds. I hope he does well in life and avoids the worse pitfalls along the way. He has tremendous potential if he uses it wisely.

    (talk about a lively thread...!)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:07 PM

    Weddins are a big rip off, you haf to pay the vicar bloke [probably about 100 pounds], then you have to buy a cake, [a total big rip off], and more people going=bigger cake, and you haf to buy weddingf suit, [another 100 quid!, and wedding car, and stuff like that, total big complete rip off.

    and fuerals are another bloody rip off, and piss me off ie =wen my dad got buried [he was ded at the time], the coffin was 500 pounds, but it was just veneered chipboard [MDF]!, i moaned to the funeral company="why do you charge so much, and rip people off?", they said "thats our prices, wood is expencive etc", i said its "not even wood, its bloody chipboard", i could have made one at home for a few quid!
    and you have to pay the vicar bloke, thats about 100 quid
    and you have to pay the doctor, waht checks they are ded, thats 30 quid, another big rip off.

    I bet vicars are rich, just think, 100 quid for 1/2 hour job!

    I think christenings are free, my mate called Steve got his new son christened, i don't think he paid them.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:39 PM

    I can relate somewhat to both of you, brucie and Fred. I too recognize both good-looking men and women when I see them. However, neither make me feel much in relation to sexuality these days.

    They're about as titillating as good-looking gazebos. Flamingos, maybe.

    Hey, maybe I'm not heterosexual-by-choice-bisexual-by-nature, but asexual! Nay-sexual? Maybe quasi-sexual.

    That's it, quasi-sexual.

    I think I'm gonna start up an annual Quasi-Pride Day, with parades and ribbons and local cable TV and all the trimmings. It's time we Quasi's came out of our Quasets!

    And those marriage and divorce laws? Ha! They're just *moooooooooooooooooooooooooot* to us Quasis!

    But should Quasi's adopt kids?


    oh nooooooo ... that IS the question ...


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:43 PM

    Little Hawk,

    If Solomon ever decides to quit, you don't need to apply or interview. You're in, man.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:47 PM

    Daylia,

    Can we put modos in the quasi parade? I had to ask. It's a sickness with me.

    Bruce


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:00 PM

    The Quasi-Pride Day is a terrific idea, daylia! Sign me up! And no one is afraid of Quasi's either. What a cool idea. I occasionally still feel attracted to this or that person, though, so I'm not a total quasi, yet. Still, I think it's a lovely idea.

    Brucie - Thanks, man! But what are "modos"?

    jOhn from Hull - You are so right, jOhn. Weddings and funerals ARE a big, giant ripoff! That's one of the very good reasons (among others) why I have not married, and why I have left instructions advising people not to conduct the usual funeral industry nonsense on my behalf when I decide to move back into spirit at the end of this latest Earth-walk. I do not want to be attended to by a bunch of solemn-looking paid professionals dressed in penguin suits.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: pdq
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:09 PM

    *daylia* - please keep it quiet about flamingos! If all women find out the truth about them, we men will have even less to do.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:16 PM

    Little Hawk, you're gonna feel bad you missed this one.

    They would then be quasimodos.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:24 PM

    Of course! That's what I get for reading too hurriedly. :-)

    Then it could also be called "Hump Day", couldn't it? But that would lead to confusion...


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:29 PM

    I had a hunch you'd say that.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Tang The Orangutang
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:04 AM

    You people sicken me! You go on and on about gay rights, and minority rights, but you never think of those of us who are not human. You only think of us as "animals", objects to be exploited. Take Brucie's goat Esmeralda. do you actually believe that she enjoys to be poked and proddled and manhandled by that pervert? What Kendall Morse and his Rama Llama and the kids he abandoned her with. Do you think she has any recourse for suing him for child support? Hell no she doesn't! After all of the unnatural things he talked her into doing for him, whispering things in her ears like how much she means to him and how much he loves her, but like a human he finds out he has a kid or three with her and he runs off to cavort with one of his own kind. Disgusting and pure racist! This bigotry must stop!


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Esmeralda
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:16 AM

    The old bugger can't run as fa-aaa-aaa-aaast as me, anyway. Tha-aaa-aaa-aaa-t's why he needs the pro-ooo-ooo-d for.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:36 AM

    Gay is such a dated word. Happy, joyful, loving: these adjectives are so much more appropriate, don't you think?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

    No, Guest. Let's go back to what it should be called, homosexual.

    Don, did your gay friend become a priest. He's qualified, you know.

    BTW, I am not a lawyer. At least not today. Maybe again, tomorrow. Who ever above said, I just don't care, is right.

    I am straight. Married to a woman. I don't need to flaunt it. It's a fairly normal thing and legal everywhere. I am just tired of having the gay lifestyle flaunted in my face. Also, I don't like my posts deleted when I say something that is an honest opinion even if it comes on a bit strong.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM

    No, Marty, he's not a priest (wrong religion: Lutherans don't have priests, they have pastors, which is quite different), he's an attorney, and quite a good one from what I understand. Nor is he a pedophile. That, of course, was your implication: that gays are pedophiles. Not so. Another shining example of the abysmal ignorance of bigots.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:01 PM

    No, Don. Some gays are pediphiles, but not all, thankfully. But most gays are fudgepackers. That's a fact. And, like a few others here, all you do is accuse people of being bigots or Nazis if they don't agree with you or your pansy-ass far-left liberal way of thought. Gays can vote. They can elect gay officials. Where are they in Federal government?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Amos
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:06 PM

    Martin:

    I reckon they wouldn't tell you even if you asked them. As for their marrying or not, I submit it is not a single whisp of your goddamned business what they do, and you should butt out and tend to your own last.

    A


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: pdq
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:13 PM

    Today's San Francisco Two Man Beach Volleyball Tournament presents:

       The Hump Day Flamingos v. The Quasimodo Fudge Packers


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 09:38 PM

    It's a lot like race, in fact, and like class--the poor having too many kids. It's not blacks, I'm not a racist, it's those uppity blacks who don't know their place, always trying to get attention. It certainly sounds a whole lot like that.

       Suppose the "agenda" of "gay culture" (you don't mean Greek philosophy and Socratic dialogues I take it) might be to promote acceptance for gays so that those children everyone is worried about don't suffer so much? How patronising is the whole poor-child rigamarole? When exactly are we going to get around to finding out more about this condition that's been around since the roots of western culture began? And as I already wondered, Will we be using the pathologies of hetero orientation as a control group? Anyhow, I'm sure gays will be waiting by the phone.

    It seems unnatural, doesn't work right, the whole naturey pc bullshit thing, but then if we're going to be natural, can we get remorseless murder back, like the blessed critters? Wait, which direction are we going again? Lead us there o' spiritual nature people.

    I'd rather anybody said they thought homosexuality was wrong and immoral, if that's where all their curlicues and spun lines lead. Talk about pc. You can think that. But you may also think that marrying for money, having a child in dubious other hetero circumstances are wrong--after all, gays can marry and have kids, as long as it's a big sham, nice. Law can't proscribe all these matters, if you think about it. And it shouldn't. The culture agenda may annoy you, but you'll be pleased to know, for the sake of the poor children, that it is working. Opinion splits largely along age.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Amos
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 09:49 PM

    Wait, which direction are we going again? Lead us there o' spiritual nature people.


    Fred, sometimes you just crack me up no end!! :>)

    A


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:17 PM

    Amos

    No, you butt out. Or take one in the butt if you like it so much.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
    Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:35 PM

    You're such a diplomat, Martin! Hey, had any good hotdogs or burgers lately? (I'm talkin' about food, okay?)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: HRH ted of hull
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 05:35 AM

    None of you ladies have dared to address the FUNDAMENTAL question concerning "gay marriages" ie - Which bloke wears the white dress? Or do they both turn up in flowing crinolene creations?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 07:00 AM

    Hey Fred, who do you think it's "working" the best for?   Take your pick, and please feel free to add to the list if you like.

    You

    Me

    Child XX

    Child XY

    Jilly/Jane or Billy/Bob or Jilly/Billy next door

    Cable TV stations

    Afternoon talk show babblers   

    The corporate sponsors of those same afternoon talk show babblers

    Doctors

    Journalists

    Flamingos

    Gazebos

    Ribbon manufacturers

    Political lobby groups in need of causes

    Lawyers in need of clients

    Street people

    Yuppies

    Michael Jackson

    Martin Gibson

    Porn stars

    Stilly River Sage

    Nerd

    The Children's Aid (not to be confused with AIDS) Society

    All of the above

    None of the above

    Some of the above


    Just curious.


    You know, I feel a whole lot differently about this than when I first started posting on this thread. When I searched my heart and soul this morning, I found that where there used to be some real interest, a little caring and quite a bit of concern, now there's just this great big yawning, resigned ..... nothing.

    Good.

    I can even look my 20yr old friend in the eye now. I honestly don't seem to care a whit what he does anymore! I know, I attuned him to Mastery in two traditions of Reiki (Japanese form of energetic healing) yesterday afternoon, and then we spent a few hours in the park talking.   

    This must mean I've really come to terms with all those troubling personal experiences, feelings and opinions. What a "healing" indeed! YIPPPEEEEE!!!!

    We did it, folks! Thank you very much to the Mudcat!

    Now I'll get back to minding my own business(es).

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Fred Miller
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:40 AM

    Probably cable t.v. and journalists, for now.

       It works for me just because I like some of the jokes. Margaret Cho's line Any government that would deny a gay man bridal registry is a fascist regime. Bill Marr's about how he never had a problem with gays, didn't care at all, then he had a proctology exam and now he thinks these people are just SICK.

    What I don't like about gay marriage is that such a big change in cultural norms will make a lot of good old-fashioned stories and culture seem dated, confused, yellowed and dim--there will be footnotes and explanations, weary business, a lot of academic people saying "ACTUALLY..." about everything. I should be in favor of a better reflection of the realities of human nature in art and law and everything but I get tired, the conventions I know seem less trouble. New stock characters, plein-air gay-folk plot devices, social-issues enterprises, tedious discussions. The sooner it happens the better, with the least trouble, it's all like having to go to your wife's work-related party, or to the DMV to re-new your license.

    I want to apologise for my previous post, I was irritable about something or other. I think gay marriage should and will be legal, but I don't think everybody has to like it. People are entitled to embrace their own point of view--there was just this one bullying point that got under my skin. Thanks Amos, sadly I too think I'm funny, and more than you do.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 11:03 AM

    I think it's working best for: talk shows, journalists, lawyers, doctors, lobbyists, and professional soreheads (on either side of the issue). The usual bottom-feeders and parasites, in other words.

    It's what is called a "very sexy" issue by people in the media these days. It's a fantastic way to generate publicity, either positive or negative.

    It may also be part of the "distract, divide, and conquer" routine presently being foisted on the public by the powers that be as they dismantle democracy, destroy the fabric of a once-free society, and build their New World Order upon its ruins. Any issue that is profoundly divisive helps them keep people spinning their wheels uselessly, and not noticing the larger picture.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 12:28 PM

    True, Marty, some gays are pedophiles. But some straights are pedophiles. So it cancels out. As to my accusing you of being a bigot (I never used the word "Nazi"; you did), it's less of an accusation and more of an observation derived from the tone of your own posts. Shall we take a vote?

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Bee-dubya-ell
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 03:03 PM

    Well, personally, I think gay marriage is a real threat to the institution of heterosexual marriage. There are millions of married "straight" guys out there who have never had any desire to suck a cock or get boned in the ass, but if they could get married to some guy, they'd turn queer in a heartbeat!

    Okay, maybe it's not "millions" of guys. How about "thousands"? "Hundreds"? Would "one or two out of the entire population of the friggin' country" seem more reasonable?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 07:08 PM

    What??????

    Aw, fer Chrissake! :-)

    What about us Quasi-sexuals? We don't get any funding or publicity or anything. Nobody comes forward to defend us. We are a discriminated-against minority, and I think it's an outrage!


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 08:16 PM

    The vibrators are in aisle 10 at Walmart, LH. . .


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: pdq
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 09:03 PM

    Anybody hear Shel Silverstein's song "The Man Who Turns the Damn Thing Off and On"?

    Bob Gibson's version on "Making a Mess..." is absolutely great.

    Oops, that was about music.

    Sorry, continue on...


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 09:34 PM

    1. I don't shop at WalMart.

    2. I think you misunderstand the term "quasi-sexual".


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 09:55 PM

    Hi Chongo. No, I've just been eating a lot of decent salads lately and occasionally a decent steak.

    Don, read before you post. I said in general one gets called a bigot or a nazi around here. They are the most thrown about terms in this place.

    How about the tone of your posts? Pompous. Snobby. Futile attempts at humor. Out-dated. Liberally biased beyond common sense. Full of one's self. Way too politcally correct. Boring.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,joe
    Date: 17 Aug 04 - 11:56 PM

    ok, y'all,
    this is gettin' weird. how 'bout we just find some friends, try t' be honest & Get Over Ourselves.
    w/ love from CA,US
    ps, wish you were here
    great jam session but for the affected dissonance
    more beer? & o, i'm sorry, sex


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:03 AM

    Naw, LH--it was just a chance to introduce one more distraction into an otherwise overworked thread.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 06:28 AM

    I'm sitting here in my provocative little gazebo, just inside it's enticing little door waiting for my flamingos to wake up, and I just gotta know .... what color is your very favorite vibrator, Stilly?

    Did you finance, lease or pay cash for it?

    Did you find it at Walmart?

    Did you scour and shower before you deflowered it?

    How often do you bring it in for an oil change?

    Do you use Armor-all for good looks and a longer life?

    Does it have pretty little tootsies, like a flamingo?

    I'm taking a poll. As a newly self-realized Quasi, I realize there's a broad spectrum of very common human behaviors and choices for which I have not the slightest inclination ... and therefore no experience. But I do want the most accurate understanding of my species as possible - so thanks in advance for the info.

    LH you're absolutely right, we Quasis should have just as much publicity and air-time as anyone else. I've been working on plans for our first Quasi-Pride Day, but funny thing ... everytime I pick up the phone to call the local Cable TV station, I start feeling queasy.

    I don't like this. I think I'm already losing my new-found identity. Just the thought of coming out of the Quaset turns me into a Queasi-sexual.

    How can I do justice to all Quasis if I start going Queasi in front of the cameras, the whole nation????

    LH I obviously need your help with this. We'll join, and conquer!! Don't get me wrong about the "joining" bit though .... I realize you're not quite a full-blown Quasi yet, so I hafta go easi on you. (That's not Queasi, but easi).

    So lemme know when you can join me in my Gazebo and help me draft up these Quasi-plans, ok Little Hawk?

    Just promise you'll never titillate my Flamingos. Keep yer talons off 'em. I'm deathly possessive.


    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 08:22 AM

    Never mind, Stilly. I know it's going out on quite the shakey limb for anybody to take your word for anything, anyhow.

    So I just splurged and spent all my Canadian Tire money (I refuse to shop at Walmart) on a selection of new toys. I'm going to spend some quality time with them in my Gazebo right now. My flamingos are still sleeping anyway.

    Hmmm. Do you think I got the wrong size, maybe?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:42 AM

    wrong size HANDS. Those are lobster claws. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Amos
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 10:49 AM

    Qulickety Qulack, duck...but don't take it Quliterally...


    A


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 10:51 AM

    Where in God's name did you ever find that picture, daylia?

    Vibrators. They come in every size and color and a great many shapes. You can get double-ended ones too, but I don't think there are any triple-ended ones on the market yet. (I may be wrong about that.) The important thing with vibrators, I should think, is to get the speed right and avoid over-accelerating when in the passing lane, as this can strip your gears! But I am only theorizing. A good vibrator goes from zero to eighty in .15 seconds. Also, one should be careful to avoid electrocution if the vibrator casing gets damaged. Putting a rubber condom over the vibrator can help prevent this highly disturbing event.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 10:52 AM

    It's probably from years of trying to keep a good grope on the situation.

    Just fancy how facilitative these hands are for fondling fully-flowered, flighty, feisty, flirtatious, flamboyant Flamingos, Fred!

    Apparently even Alice had a problem or two. See?

    ... The chief difficulty Alice found at first was in managing her flamingo: she succeeded in getting its body tucked away, comfortably enough, under her arm, with its legs hanging down, but generally, just as she had got its neck nicely straightened out, and was going to give the hedgehog a blow with its head, it would twist itself round and look up in her face, with such a puzzled expression that she could not help bursting out laughing: and when she had got its head down, and was going to begin again, it was very provoking to find that the ...

    Bursting out laughing at inopportune moments has been quite the problem for me too, I must admit ...

    But I think I'm going to return these new toys forthwith. I didn't even have a chance to try them out before my Flamingos woke up, flipped out and flocked off.

    Fooey.    :-(


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM

    By all means, avoid electrocution, Little Hawk! If you wear your old vibrator down to no tread, I think you should spring for a new one rather than try to fix it yourself, if the outcome can be that shocking. Or get one that is battery operated. (I suggested Walmart to show how readily available these things are--but I vaguely remember you offering corroborating remarks on an old "I hate Walmart" thread).

    daylia, give it a rest.

    SRS


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:01 PM

    I'm sorry Stilly - I do make it a point never to take orders. Haven't you noticed?

    Oh yeah, you probably haven't. You do seem to have quite a bit of trouble seeing past the end of your own snout.

    Hey, maybe your posts would be more pleasant, more persuasive, more exciting, even receive a modicum of critical acclaim if you'd only use your Walmart Special -- or better yet, offered to pay someone (or something) a handsome sum --- to Qulick at your Qulitty as you Qulamour at me.

    HINT: make sure you pick someone (or something) with a very loooooooooooong tongue and nice big taste-buds too. That Qulitty of yours is no doubt just as monstrous as that snout. And it's probably just as miserably lacking in taste and appeal as your typical post here.


    daylia


    PS Please don't take it too hard Stilly. I'm just having fun. I can make no valid judgments about your Qulitty. I haven't personally spent any Quality time with it (yet). And your snout doesn't appear to be all that long either, going by the Mudcat pics.

    Maybe you're near-sighted?

    Whatever you are, I just don't know how I'm ever gonna sleep tonight, after gazing so longingly and lovingly at your Mudcat pics!

    If you see my long-lost flamingos, please don't let on though.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:11 PM

    Now lookie here, daylia. It takes two to stop fighting uselessly over old grievances. I think Stilly is willing to, so how about you too? That's not an order, it's a suggestion. :-)

    Yeah, Stilly, I really detest WalMart. I read an article about the 20 richest people in the World. Almost 1/3 of them were in the Walton family. WalMart is a disgusting octopus that devours decent businesses, exploits foreign workers, and ruins smaller communities, while practicing the most ruthless, shoddy, and irresponsible forms of capitalist excess. It's a giant mouth that devours.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:22 PM

    Alice. Speaking of straight pedophiles, but one who managed to behave himself, apparently.

    re-reading this thread for funny bits what struck me instead is how often I pop on to say something that was already said. In my own self-amused manner, of course, but still, I thought I was paying attention. Between swatting porn-pop-ups and get-rid-of-porn-pop-ups-pop-ups, I thought I read what people said, more or less.

    The only thing I seemed to add was the possibility that straight people will abuse same-sex marriage for the benefits, which is quite probable. Because straights don't seem to take marriage very seriously anyway, and fewer of them care about gay-associations. Canadians might not understand the hassle here of getting health insurance, and although my sexuality doesn't feel like a choice but more like an embarrassing boner-hazard (thanks for the hug in my time of grief, lady, but back up now, please, bitch) if I had a male room-mate with a spouse plan, a rent-splitting deal, and I don't need a full-time job or the UPS union, hm, that hay or meadow starts to look tasty. I could choose it, especially since I don't have to eat it. There's no legal standard of gay, you don't have to perform acts in chambers. That's why it's important to call it same-sex marriage. Or same gender. Marriage doesn't equal sex, at least not mine, lately. I think straight sham-gay marriage would far exceed the gay sham-straight marriages.
    Anyway, it sounds pretty good, maybe no marital sex, but I get to screw the health insurance industry, which is pretty sexy to me, personally. I owe them a good humping. Plus I could pretend to be gay around straight women, which is a fun kind of voyeurism, and maybe I'd get to go to some of those book clubs and locker rooms and stuff.

    The problem is in the new benefits and money tied to a self-declared state, with marriage as an institution ALREADY debased, and health insurance ALREADY a fesitival of crap.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Fred Miller
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:28 PM

    Daylia if you don't get around to posting a photo you'll be remembered as a girl with big hands and toys.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:00 PM

    "A giant mouth that devours" ... hey, that sounds just like Stilly!

    Sorry Little Hawk, I just couldn't resist. I'll behave now, I promise.

    You know I do always respect your opinions (even if I don't always agree with them) and give your suggestions very careful consideration (even if I don't always choose to follow them). Why?

    Because like Stilly, you're intelligent, well-versed and witty.

    But unlike Stilly, you also show yourself to be wise (there's a big difference between 'intelligent' and 'wise'). And unlike Stilly, you are also pleasant and accepting, friendly and open-minded.

    Most importantly though, you do choose to express yourself in a socially appropriate, respectful, loving, humble and non-abusive manner. These traits and behaviors indicate that you have earned yourself quite a high level of spiritual understanding.

    And of all human "character traits", that's the one I respect and value the most.

    Aloha nui loa (I love you very much) my friend,

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:04 PM

    And it's probably just as miserably lacking in taste and appeal as your typical post here.

    Good lord. To think I used to enjoy your posts and respect your views.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:11 PM

    Walmart is in the dead-last position on any list when shopping. Only if all other options have failed do we go there, so I only see the inside of the place about once a year.

    I can make no valid judgments about your Qulitty.

    I, on the other hand, took your measure a long time ago. The idiotic insulting stuff you post doesn't hurt me, but it makes you look petty. You should listen to your friend Little Hawk. And if you're looking at the photos I posted, I would appreciate a little respect. By both personal and Mudcat standards there are some pretty important folks in those images, my likeness aside, and they don't need to be dragged into your squabbles.

    SRS


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:17 PM

    Oh well. Your choice, your loss Ebbie.


    BTW, how's your little (or maybe not so little) Qulitty doing today?   

    ;-)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:21 PM

    Ah ha!! I've got it! daylia is Martin Gibson!!


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:34 PM

    No, she isn't, but I like her anyway.

    "By both personal and Mudcat standards there are some pretty important folks in those images, my likeness aside, and they don't need to be dragged into your squabbles."

    oooooooooohhhh, aren't you the important one? You stink up a bathroom just like anyone else can.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: wysiwyg
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:43 PM

    This does not look, to me, at all like the same Mudcat that was so moved by Rick Fielding's passing that, just for a few days, bullshit fell silent.

    ~Susan


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:47 PM

    Actually, I am sorry I did post what I did, without looking at the pictures.

    I should have.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 03:06 PM

    Marty, I can see where you, in particular, would evaluate my posts the way you do.

    Pompous

    Per Merriam-Webster:
    1 : excessively elevated or ornate   [What can I do but blush modestly?]
    2 : having or exhibiting self-importance : ARROGANT    [Often the perception of someone who has little to recommend him when encountering a person who exhibits knowledge and refinement.]
    3 : relating to or suggestive of pomp : MAGNIFICENT    [Again, I blush modestly.]

    Snobby

    Again, per Merriam-Webster:
    Ref: snob
    1 : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior [If you feel I am rebuffing you, Marty, it's because you are a bit dull—no shine—and are badly in need of buffing up; I can't really avoid you here on Mudcat even if I wanted to; I don't ignore you because you are kind enough not to ignore me (not matter how boring you find me, you always respond to my every post with one of your pithy comments); and I know you feel inferior, Marty, and perhaps with good cause, but that's not my doing.]
    2 : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste [It's obvious to all that I am superior to you in matters of knowledge and taste, but I'm truly sorry if you find that offensive; the solution is not to put me down, but to try to elevate yourself a bit.]

    Futile attempts at humor

    That, of course, is a matter of opinion. Once again, shall we take a vote?

    Out-dated.

    Your judgment of anything that happened in the world before you came along. Now who's pompous and full of one's self?

    Liberally biased beyond common sense

    That sounds like the opinion of someone a bit to the right of Attila the Hun when speaking of someone else who has occasionally expressed concern for the welfare of his fellow humans, rather than matters of power, profit, acquisition, and short-sighted pleasure.

    Full of one's self

    Well, who else am I supposed to be full of? It's a lot better to be full of one's self that to be, as you are, full of. . . .    Well—never mind.

    Way too politically correct

    Is that because I don't use ethnic or racial slurs or refer to gays as "fudgepackers"? Is that why, Marty?

    Boring

    Because I use words of more than two syllables from time to time and tend to write fairly long sentences? I'm sorry your attention span is so short, Marty. Or is it that I write about things beyond your comprehension and it tends to give you headaches? Well, yeah, I can see where you would find that boring. Sorry about that.

    Have a nice day.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 03:09 PM

    Man, you sure know how to waste your life.

    The next worst thing to bible spouters is dictionary spouters.

    Now, pull your shorts out of your crack and attempt to walk.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 03:23 PM

    No Ebbie, don't blame Martin. I lived in an all-male household for 25 years (sorry if that sounds unfair, guys, and maybe it is .... but it felt like being imprisoned in some football locker room for a long, LOOOOOONG time). I think I eventually succumbed to "if you can't beat'em. join 'em". And I see I can still get pretty vulgar sometimes, when I'm feeling a lot of tension.

    Especially on a thread like this one.

    I do apologize if my "comic relief" offended you, Ebbie. Please be assured I don't really have any interest in your Qulitty - or anyone else's, for that matter. (Except, occasionally, my own).

    I just liked using the word "Qulitty". I got the idea from Amos, above, so I can't even take full credit for it.

    Stilly, I didn't intend any disrespect for anyone else in your picture. Just you. I just can't seem get over my latest interest in life --- no not "toys", but YOU!!!!

    I think I found a picture of your River.

    And your song, too. Am I right?

    The one is just beautiful. What a gusher! And the other I'll have to wait to try out. My piano is at the shop for a good cleaning right now.

    (Hey, maybe I should send my head there, too. *sigh*)

    Sorry, folks. I can talk like a (rude) adolescent male sometimes, but rest assured I don't walk like one (or so I've been told). Not that any of you are really interested, anyway.

    Unlike Stilly, I'm no more important or worthy of your interest than anybody else here. ;-)

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 03:39 PM

    By both personal and Mudcat standards there are some pretty important folks in those images, my likeness aside, means everyone except me in the photo.

    The song isn't related to the river, but is a reworking of an old Irish tune. Good song, but unrelated. My grandfather was the "Sage of the Stilly" in his newspaper column for many years. Thanks, Martin, for your remarks, both on the thread and PM. This has gone far enough--the goading must stop. And giving with one hand and taking back with the other--that's pointless.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 03:42 PM

    Trying to shape you up is merely a small part of my contribution to civilization, Marty.

    Oft in the Stilly Night. A beautiful song, if a bit sad. But many of the best ones are.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 04:11 PM

    Give up, Don

    Get your old ass in shape first.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

    Stilly I know you're intelligent and well-read, and I appreciate your sense of humour too. But I don't care for the overbearing, pompous-sounding and often downright insulting tone of the majority of your posts here. I watch you so often make harsh, unwarranted assumptions and judgments about complete strangers, at the drop of a hat (meaning a word or two). I do not respect that type of behavior at all.

    I never have.

    I usually just skip your posts because of it. And I know I'm probably missing out on some valuable information (please don't confuse this with valuable 'opinions') by doing so. It's just not worth the effort of dealing with the aggravation, anger and annoyance your posts evoke, 99% of the time -- whether you are addressing me or someone else (usually a newcomer) on this site.

    Sometimes it even brings out the worst in me ... have you noticed? That's why I ignore you most of the time.

    Now, if this is called giving with one hand and taking with the other, so be it. It is the truth.

    It's really not necessary to "talk down" to people to get a point across, Stilly, nor does it do you any favours. I am not your student, nor will I ever be. I don't know that anyone else here is either.

    I am not paying big bucks to hear your opinions and/or "learn" about your points of view.   Nor am I employing you to "grade" my writing, my spelling, my feelings, my thoughts, my experiences, my friends, my community or my opinions.

    You have never met me. You know next to nothing about me except for the posts you've read here on the 'Cat over the last year or so. And still, you seem to think you can "measure" me! With what?!?

    Your Qulitty? (sorry, just kidding ;-)

    You cannot "measure" me, now or ever Stilly! You don't have the proper "measuring stick". You never will. No one can see into the heart or mind of another. And even if they could, they still don't have the right to judge anything they might "perceive" about another's heart or mind.

    The level of your current spiritual understanding reveals itself in the fact that you still appear to suffer greatly from the delusion that you somehow have the ability - even the right! - to measure or judge me. Or anybody else.

    Guess what --- YOU DON'T! And neither does any other human being.

    So if you'd like perfect strangers like myself to be more open to listening to anything you have to say, to respect your opinions, or even to feel a bit curious or kindly disposed toward the people in your pics (who are not, after all, Abraham Lincoln or Shania Twain - no disrespect intended), then perhaps a major change in your "bedside manner" here on the Cat is indicated.

    daylia

    PS   I thought Stephen Foster wrote a song about the "Stilly Night" too. Gonna look that one up right now.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM

    daylia

    Tell us how you really feel.

    Nice to see the heat on someone other than me.

    The pompous and the snobs continue to be here, but daylia can handle them.

    So can I.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Lilyfestre
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 06:00 PM

    Health insurance = festival of crap

    LMAO...I like that!!!!! You couldn't be any closer to the truth if you tried!!!!!!

    Michelle


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 06:30 PM

    WYSIWYG, you're asking one helluva big favor, and not all parties are responding in the way you hoped, are they?

    The link provided says:

    Oft in the Stilly Night
    Words & music: Thomas Moore (1815)
    (published by N. Thurston, N.Y., n.d.)

    SRS


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: wysiwyg
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 06:38 PM

    Yes, SRS, I am, and I knew I was when I asked it. I think letting little time pass may, um, improve things a tad. And I think enough of you as a person to hope you might do just that.

    ~Susan


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Fred Miller
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 07:18 PM

    What happened? I thought we were talking about, um, nevermind.

    These feuds, people, I think we'd all like to see you kiss and make out. Take the example of Little Hawk. Always centered, respectful of others, never gets rattled or pissy or says anything rashly that comes out sounding wrong, that he'd need be embarrassed of. And on top of that, he's funny.

        Am I the only one who can't stand this guy? I get so sick of him respecting me and my opinion I start bickering with myself, say things to myself that I'll regret, and lash back rudely. But even more than that ass, me, I can't stand that guy, Little Hawk.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:47 PM

    Up! I meant make up.

    No offence LH, I'm just jealous, people are pairing into feuds and I've got no partner.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Timbo
    Date: 18 Aug 04 - 10:20 PM

    As the great writer grffitti once wrote:

    "If God had meant us to be homosexual surely he would have put holes in our bums"

    This topic sure has stirred up the hornets nest.

    Each to their own, just as long as they don't make it compulsory.

    Timbo


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred Miller
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 02:32 PM

    hornets schmornets, it's an important question of the day, anyhow.

    Wysiwyg, I'm not sure it's clear that you've made a direct request, although maybe only I don't get it.

    Why do guys equate homosexuality with anal sex? I know about half aren't that disposed to it, lesbians, and I think not all males homosexuals are either, and, it's fairly common among heteros. Or, at least, well, nevermind.

    I feel pretty settled on this issue, for myself, on the main point of human rights. But it's also interesting what else pertains to it, what side-issues are involved, what one might speculate is on the horizon. It's interesting to try to see around the way the question is usually framed, which is usually a sex morality question.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: wysiwyg
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 02:39 PM

    Well, Fred, since you asked, I asked a couple of the recent tanglees to detangle-- to just let the thread go. They were folks with whom I shared a certain connection, and I asked them that favor, on that basis.

    I think there are quite a few of us around the joint who hope that either the thread will die a natural death-- most topical points having already been made-- or that new topical points will be added.

    ~Susan


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM

    Fred, WYSIWYG asked people to stop squabbling. Not all complied. If you want to argue, I gift you with daylia. This garbage is bleeding all over the Mudcat. Sorry, Susan, but we might as well keep it in one place. I don't want to say any more on Martin's thread since he has enough troubles of his own.

  • daylia doesn't understand that most people don't automatically step into a squabble with total strangers and layer on pejorative remarks about their person, their personal life, their friends and family, their private habits, and their educational and professional background.

  • She thinks she speaks for all of Mudcat when she levels her nasty bogus charges--and she doesn't recognize stunned silence as disapproval, she looks at it as acceptance of her nonsense. Silence seems to encourage her behavior.

  • She has a novel approach to détente--she will say one semi-flattering thing about someone then follow it with nine nasty, baseless accusations. In a manner as calculated as any Middle Eastern preemptive assault, she gets as nasty as she possibly can before hurridly insisting on peace. You can guess the outcome.

    daylia, let 'er rip. I'm sure you can spout off for hours now about my intellectual posturing and inferior genetic tendencies.

    signed--Stilly River Sage, who has taken all of the nonsense she's going to. (Don't worry, Susan, I'm finished with this thread. I will resume my policy, practiced for the last couple of years since the last blowup, of avoiding any threads that daylia is actively posting to.)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: wysiwyg
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 03:03 PM

    :~(

    Well, SRS, if it pleases you to generate self-fulfilling prophecies, you are now correct that I was wrong-- you have shown, all by yourself, that my hope in you was misplaced.

    You (and daylia) can each blame each other for being SO AWFUL that you just HAD TO ANSWER the VILE things that were said, but the truth is, only you are responsible for what you post.

    ~Susan


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: maggiethecat
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 03:10 PM

    This has become so sad to read.

    I'm new. Do people really say things like this to each other here?

    Why?

    What is accomplished?

    -maggie


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 03:26 PM

    The job of self-appointed mediator is a tough one, so please don't take it personally when it doesn't work. The choice to post wasn't to get in "one more lick," but to make my objection to those posts perfectly clear.

    Susan, I felt that someone had to point out why her remarks were so vile. The irrational response that various aspects of this conversation aroused in her are such that I can't sit back and let her assume that if no one brings this sorry behavior to her attention that it's okay. I speak for myself, not for Mudcat, and I'm not suggesting any kind of vote come to pass regarding who posted what or how they responded. I'm suggesting that even if daylia gets angry about the topic, she needs to stick to arguing about the topic and not inflate the situation by making wild personal attacks.

    SRS


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:13 PM

    It's okay, Susan. Thanks for your efforts to restore peace and goodwill here.

    I do take full responsibility for all of my posts.

    I do mean every word most sincerely - except for those few moments of angry, off-color "comic relief" already noted above.

    And I do post with the best interests of the Mudcat and everyone on it at heart.

    Stilly, it might please you to know that I re-read the lyrics of Ode to the Stilly Night last night. I think I understand why straight out of the blue, in the midst of all the hissing and snarling "something" moved me to google for your River and your song yesterday. It was really the LAST thing I felt like doing at the time, believe me.

    And where there used to be only hurt and anger when I thought of you, there is now only acceptance, detachment, and compassion.

    All the best to you Stilly,

    daylia


    PS I'm finding it quite impossible to work spiritual/energetic healing techniques for somebody and stay angry with them at the same time. What a relief, and Holy HUNA!! :-)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,*daylia*
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:25 PM

    Unfortunately yes, maggie. Pobody's Nerfect.

    Is there a technical glitch on this site today that's stopping me from logging in, Susan? Have I been banned, maybe ?!?

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:28 PM

    No, it's either a glitch or you are logged out and need to log in again.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: wysiwyg
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:31 PM

    I have no such power, daylia. Maybe a higher power is telling you to take a break though.

    ~S~


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:39 PM

    Well that's funny, Susan -- I was just thinking not 2 minutes ago about making my way to Willow Creek, flutes in hand, to enjoy this gorgeous day, connect with nature and ease my mind.

    Are you sure the higher powers aren't telling you my secrets or something?   ;-)

    Thanks LH, for everything.

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM

    Does anyone know if it is possible to get a good corned beef sandwich in England?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 08:25 PM

    o' big deal, people talk about things they feel strongly about, get mad, it's not the end of civilization, really. Everynow and then, if you keep going, you work through it to a civil state of utter disagreement. It's happened to me and it feels better and--I think--looks better than quitting out of nicety.

    I'm not among those who have been really put off by anyone's horrible remarks. Some didn't come across so well, that's all.

    Oddly, once after a squabble my cookie got dropped, and I felt the same way, that maybe I'd offended. I think it was all about affirmative action, which I got pretty worked up about.

    I tried to bring up some different points, don't have much else on my mind.
       Except I remember watching a good documentary about drag queens and transexuals called Paris Is Burning--which isn't about gays per se, but some were, sort of, and it was nicely evenhanded. Some people were sympathetic, others were about the stupidest most self-absorbed creatures you'll ever see depicted. It was a good movie anyway.

    Sooner or later the trans-gender thing will cross paths with same-sex marriage, on the other side of that fence.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 08:31 PM

    My guess is it can be done, Martin. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: wysiwyg
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 09:54 PM

    I'm gonna just use this thread from now on for the Thread Name Game, no topical association intended, just a better use of the thread.

    Sniff! Dont slurp... / One of our farts is missing.

    ~S~


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: wysiwyg
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 09:56 PM

    Q: What Do Physicists Think About??
    A: The Great Pizza Shortage!

    ~S~


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: wysiwyg
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 09:57 PM

    Anyone can play!

    Q: Problem with guests...
    A: Shower or Bath?

    ~S~


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: wysiwyg
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM

    On the Way to Cape May: Ship in Limbo!

    ~S~


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
    Date: 19 Aug 04 - 10:04 PM

    Have you silly bastards really got nothing better to do than moan about gay weddings?
    A third of the worlds population don't know where their next meal is coming from, but all you can do, is sit by your computers and whinge, as if your posts here really make a differnce!

    It's simple, if you don't like gay marriage, don't marry a gay.

    john
    [not married, not gay, just fed up of folk sticking their nose into other people's business].


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Fred Miller
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:28 AM

    Good point J from H. But maybe the friggin' thread could be used to address the friggin' subject. It matters. It's not so easy. Heterosexual marriage and family is up there with the ancient verities, as Faulkner called them. It's a big friggin' deal, after all, isn't it? Here it is knocking at the door. It's not hunger, granted, but it is what it is. The Norm--it's not easy and natural, people work very hard to uphold it, as a value in their lives, and here come very different terms. It matters.

    I've come down pro, completely pro, I hardly see the point in debating it much, except when people call me unthinkingly pc and bolster it with a bunch of evasive pc counter-crap. But I don't come down so hard that I blame people, too much, for reservations. Because of my religious upbringing. I was raised as a science experiment. So what do I know about it.

    On the other hand, I think the trouble with calling people bigots, is... I don't know, aren't we? to some extent, most of us? A bit? No? Okay... the crickets are with me. I guess it's just me. Me and the crickets. I guess we finally found the equivalent of the N-word among white people. Fashizzle m'bigotizzle, dog.

    The problem here, is e-mail. One writes as one speaks, and then it's there, like you actually WROTE it. Fuck. Some people speak as though they're writing, others, are like me. I thought I heard a backing away from squabble into mock-squabble, but it doesn't go over. Well, screw it, I enjoyed it. I don't know if my tone was taken and I'm embarrassed--o' well. I'll live.

    It's not that bad, is it? You can hear more vulgar more vicious things anywhere, on the news, on talk shows. We're not pros, most of us, let us screw up a bit. Or the whole point of an open forum is no point at all. What a stupid waste. Am I the only person who thinks everyone is being pretty reasonable, in their own ways? Yes, people say things like that to each other. I can't think of a person I actually love that I haven't said worse to. Okay, one. No, three, I hope. But out of many more than three.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Bagpuss
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 06:34 AM

    I am amazed that daylia knows such a collection of homosexual people with so many severe problems. I know a fair number of gay people and they seem to me no more and no less screwed up than anyone else I know. One guy is a bit of a show off, shallow, know it all, but no more so than his female friend who is straight. Another lesbian woman I know suffers from depression, but then so do I and many other people I know.

    I also know someone who is gay and really suffered throughout his younger years, in the main because of the lack of acceptance from his straight parents which really hurt him. I also know a straight girl whose parents split up when she was young when the dad announced he was gay. She spent a lot of time with each of her parents and their new partners and is one of the happiest and most well adjusted people i know. She was teased at school about her dad, but it didnt bother her too much as she had a lot of close friends (each of whom was teased/bullied about something or other).


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Ellenpoly
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:02 AM

    They call it "Salt Beef" in the UK, Martin. Best is found in Jewish Delis, of course!


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: HRH ted of hull
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:03 AM

    I'd marry you jOhn.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:42 AM

    Bagpuss, let me try to clarify this once again. Yes, I have known and know now homosexual and bisexual people with many problems. Some severe, some not so severe.

    I'd call the problems my 20yr old friend faces every day of his life semi-severe - from the difficulty he has finding and keeping decent employment in a straight world, to personal harassment and vandalism of his property (a common occurence), to the regular visits to doctors and health clinics for sex-related injuries and fear of AIDS, to the lack of formal education due to (self-chosen) years on the street as a child prostitute/drug runner.

    I'd consider being found HIV positive a "severe" problem, and I do hope he avoids the worst.

    But by far, the biggest collection of people with severe or semi-severe problems I've known are not gay but straight. The (big) difference is that unfortunately, ALL of the gays I've known fit into this category, keeping company with only about 35% (or so) of the straights.

    Hence my concern when people try to deny or minimize the "gay factor". Denying it in any way is highly irresponsible behavior, and it benefits no one.

    Here's a testimonial from an Adult child of a gay parent. He belongs to a support group called "Pink Parents". The last few paragraphs of his story follow:

    ... There was an incident that tipped me over the edge just a few weeks after my dad died. I was working and got talking to this girl. It came out who my dad was and she just laughed. She said "Your dad didn't have any kids. He was the biggest poof in Yorkshire." An awful lot of people were unaware he'd ever had children.

    Following this incident, I fell to pieces. I was extremely promiscuous, took a lot of drugs and drank like a mad man. I spent the next few years on this downward spiral. Eventually in my mid twenties, I attempted suicide. This was a wake up call for me and it made me determined to get my life back together. I got into university and gained a good degree. I'm now doing a job I love that is very rewarding. That said, I'm still a wreck emotionally. I suffer from severe bouts of depression and am constantly battling suicidal thoughts. I suppose this stems from my sense of not belonging, the feeling that I shouldn't be here. I find it impossible to form close meaningful relationships, although I have no trouble making friends.

    I am determined to get better. I've recently been trying to contact other people who have gay parents. I'm hoping to set up a website to aid this. I'm also about to begin some Cognitive Analytical Therapy. This is in an attempt to unravel my problems and to find a way of dealing with them, so that I can live a contented life. This is all that anybody wants I am sure.


    I think the young man speaks for himself quite well. To balance the picture, I'll add some hopeful stories from kids "growing up gay" right now.

    This last site sounds a lot more positive. I only hope that the studies and statistics quoted are honest, not selectively chosen or skewed to paint the rosiest picture possible.

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Bagpuss
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:54 AM

    And I can only repeat that I am amazed Daylia. Either your sample of gay friends and acquaintances is completely unrepresentative of gay people as a whole, or mine is.

    On a seperate note, it just confuses me that there is an argument that in order to protect children who might be subject to bullying which stems from prejudice and discrimination against gay people, we should submit gay people to further discrimination, instead of trying to combat the prejudice and discrimination.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:11 AM

    Well Bagpuss, there's no reason to expect that our experiences or the people we've known should be exactly the same, is there?

    I'm so glad to hear there's lots of people out there doing so much better than the ones I've known. And let me make this clear -- over half of the people I've known moved to my area from larger urban centers, like Toronto and Vancouver. So please don't get the impression that my community is at fault for breeding unhappy gays or something.

    Your last point is excellent. How will the situation ever change unless, well, the changes are made? We have to start somewhere. It's just very unfortunate that the most powerless and vulnerable members of society are most often the ones who pay the highest price for those changes. I only hope it's really getting better every day.

    The times they are still a-changin, after all.

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:49 AM

    People always push at a problem or subject from their own initial emotional position on it. Just look at the political threads. :-) Those coming from different emotional positions are often amazed at what the other says or perceives.

    The trick is in stretching your own perceptions until you can grasp where the other person is coming from and why. All people instinctively defend what they perceive to be good, right, and just.

    I disagree with Doug R on politics, for example, but I do understand why he sees it all the way he does.

    My impression is that the gay (male) lifestyle is inherently more stressful and risky than the heterosexual lifestyle or the gay female lifestyle...but...that doesn't necessarily mean that gay males cannot have a healthy, enduring relationship together. It just ups the odds of it not working out that way.

    If I am right that it is more stressful and risky...it's partly because of existing social prejudice, partly because of the status quo, partly because of past customs, and quite possibly partly because of natural health reasons (anal intercourse is hard on the body in various ways, and is clearly not a very natural process for a body to undergo...the anus is there to eject waste matter, and that is its sole bodily purpose). There are also some interesting Taoist writings on the matter, strictly from a health point of view. They do not regard it as a moral issue. Just a health issue. They say that two aggressive sexual energies (male) tend to clash energetically when brought together, thus harming the body and emotions on a subtle level, whereas two female passive sexual energies do not clash harmfully when brought together. Therefore, Taoists did not warn against male-to-male sexuality on any moral basis whatsoever, but they did stress that it could have damaging health consequences. They did not ban it or attempt to ban it, they just cautioned people regarding the health issues. Under Taoism each person was entirely free to make his own decision about the matter, as he saw fit.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,TIA
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

    If children in the care of gays or lesbians are at such risk, should we not take them away?

    I'm asking because my father was raised by a gay in a non-gay marriage, I have two cousins who were raised by my gay uncle and his partner, and a niece and nephew raised by a gay married to a lesbian (also relatives). We were under the mistaken impression that we are a pretty well adjusted and happy (albeit unconventional) family.

    Better rip us apart just to be sure...for the good of the kids of course.

    And if you can't guess - Daylia, please add me to the yes total.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,noddy
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:50 AM

    Me ... I just dont like MARRIAGE.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:32 AM

    *sigh* TIA I am not trying to rip anyone apart. I am presenting the very real "flip side" of the (currently) politically correct coin.

    It's regrettable that so many people obviously would rather not look at it, and take such personal offense to it.

    All people face some sort of risk. If you're human, it goes with the territory. My point is that in the past and at the present time, gays as a group have faced and continue to face significantly greater risks than straights as a group - physically, socially, emotionally and psychologically. And any children they choose to involve in their lifestyle also, unfortunately, face those greater risks. For better or worse.

    It looks like there are many measures being taken to address those risks and the problems they create, such as the self-help support groups for children and adult children of gay parents I linked to above. And that's a very good thing!

    I'm glad that your relatives are happy and well-adjusted. Perhaps I should make it a point to find and study the happy, healthy, stable, socially well-adjusted gay couples in my community (must be here somewhere!) that I haven't had the pleasure (and relief) of meeting yet? I don't think so. That sounds like quite an invasion of privacy, to me. Maybe I'll get lucky enough to meet a few of them sometime soon.

    At any rate, I sure didn't "seek out" any of the ones I've known or know now! I'm just living my typical little life, minding my own typical little business ... and there they've been.

    Reading this thread is enough to assure me that there's plenty of happy healthy well-adjusted gays out there. So thank you for adding to the positive testimonials, TIA.

    I thought the poll had fallen to the wayside so I'd stopped counting, but I'll add your "yes" to the results if you like.

    So that's 4 yeses, 3 no's and a moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot! (for comic relief).

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: HRH ted of hull
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:36 AM

    Thornton's chocolate factory in York has a lot of fudge packers.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

    ted, behave yourself - pleeeeeeeeeeeze?

    Name-calling and "Jokes" like that just make a difficult situation worse.

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,TIA
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

    Daylia, I respect that you are being thoughtful about this, but it is very hard NOT to take it personally given the subject matter and my (our) personal situation. I kept my big mouth shut in this thread for a looonnng time, and probably should cntinue to, but here goes...

    I think it's not a case of "people not looking at it", or "political correctness". Many people have looked at it, don't care (or in my case have no time for the concept of, nor the phrase, political correctness), and simply don't agree with your viewpoint.

    I know I am certainly oversimplifying your opinion, but it sounds in some posts an awful lot like:

    "Blacks (or Jews, or Irish, or Evangelicals) face terrible prejudices, so we should not let them adopt children - for the sake of the children, of course"

    and in others:

    "Excercise fanatics (or NASCAR fans, or ebay shoppers, or music makers fer chrissakes) are so caught up in their passions that they will not make proper parents".

    If I am completely misinterpreting you, I apologize.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Bagpuss
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:03 AM

    And anyway, surely thats why we (in the UK anyway) have a rigourous adoption screening process - to check that the people involved are suitable and the problems they face will not impact too much on the children. You cant argue for a ban based on a statistical correlation when you can screen people based on the real problems rather than exclude a group because a larger proportion of them suffer from such problems.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:05 AM

    I certainly said nothing about blacks or Irish or ebay shoppers, TIA - and nor would I ever. Sounds pretty ridiculous, huh?

    Like I said, this thread has given me a much wider perspective than the one afforded by my own personal experiences. That's the blessing of the internet, and that's why I'm here! I presented my stories, feelings and concerns for precisely that reason - because I knew I needed a wider perspective - NOT to rip anyone apart.

    I'm grateful for the chance to do that here, and I'm grateful to you for being honest, informative and gracious while presenting your concerns about what I've said.

    I don't see that it really conflicts much with my own perspective, anyway. It just gives a more complete picture. And I hope I'm not wrong about that!

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Bagpuss
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:11 AM

    "I certainly said nothing about blacks or Irish or ebay shoppers, TIA - and nor would I ever. Sounds pretty ridiculous, huh?"

    Daylia, can you see how it seems to us that your viewpoint is the equivalent of you saying such a thing about black or Irish, etc? If it would sound ridiculous if you said it about other groups, why is it not ridiculous when applied to homosexuals?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:11 AM

    Daylia this really isn't a personal attack, because I don't know anything about you, but,when I read your posts you sound just like that woman in Misery.is it Kathy Bates? Not sure. But your phrasing is exactly the same, uncanny. Just an observation honest.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:13 AM

    And anyway, surely thats why we (in the UK anyway) have a rigourous adoption screening process - to check that the people involved are suitable and the problems they face will not impact too much on the children. You cant argue for a ban based on a statistical correlation when you can screen people based on the real problems rather than exclude a group because a larger proportion of them suffer from such problems.

    Bagpuss, that makes a great deal of sense. Thanks!


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:18 AM

    What anyone believes is what they perceive. They find what they look for. They seldom even notice what they do not look for.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:19 AM

    Well GUEST, I have no idea who or what you're talking about, so I don't know if you're attacking me or not.

    Perhaps that's just as well. I'll choose to take the easy route and assume you're not.

    daylia


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Bagpuss
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:28 AM

    Thanks Guest - Now i wont be able to read a post from Daylia without hearing Kathy Bates!

    Daylia - your willingness to actually listen to and take on board the viewpoints and arguments of the people you are discussing a subject with has been rather refreshing. Please keep it up! (I'm still amazed that you know such a lot of screwed up gay people and absolutely none who are doing just fine!)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:43 AM

    I haven't seen that movie either. The title put me off.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: *daylia*
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:48 AM

    Sheesh -- is it THAT uncommon? I'd go on and on and describe to you in minute detail the ones I've known (other than the one young man and one gay couple I've already described) but I just can't bring myself to do it! It would take too long, and it would probably convince no one.

    Describing the one young man I know right now still feels so uncomfortable, like a blatant breach of privacy. :-(   And what good did it do?

    None at all, as far as I can see.   big BIG :-(

    I'm have to go pay my bills and get on with my real life now. Thank you all very much for the discussion. It's been quite the interesting slice!

    daylia (not to be confused with Kathy Bates, whoever she is. I get the impression she's either some bubblehead with a big bum, or someone like June Cleaver. I'd ask "am I right?" - but I probably wouldn't want to know anyway).


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:38 PM

    No Kathy Bates is a very good actress who you'd probably know from other movies, more recently remembered for a hot tub scene in About Schmidt. But in Misery she was a demented fan of a writer, with an odd cutesy manner. It was a Steven King story, like the Secret Window, or whatever the newer one is called. I don't quite get the comparison, Mister Man.

    One of the arguments against particular gay rights laws and protections is that gays are disproportionately successful, anyway, tend to make more money by and large, and hold positions of responsibility. I don't know where those numbers come from, or how one counts gays in a population except by self-declaration, again. But gay people I know fit that general outline.

    Lesbians are probably at the lowest risk for stds, I think. A lot of objections seem to focus disproportionate attention on gay men. Maybe because men are more trouble in general. It's harder to pick names for baby boys because some stupid guy you knew ruined every good name.

    Marriage itself is a separate question, since it's not all about kids. But monitoring kids is a big and complicated part. The law respects blood, and tends to reflect biases. Without marriage a gay couple might adopt in one name, and if that parent dies, the other has no custody claim. In a good situation, that would be awful.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Ellenpoly
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 01:29 PM

    Nice to see people back on track in this thread.

    Bagpuss, you made some excellent points, all in which I agree.

    I've often thought it absurd that there are no regulations covering who can actually PRODUCE children! Seriously, considering what a responsibility it is (or should be) one would think some kind of perparation would be in order.

    Heck! We have to pass a test to get a driver's license, is raising children easier???

    But of course that isn't going to happen, is it? People would scream bloody murder if they thought their natural rights were being tampered with.

    Yet the adoption procedure (even for ANIMALS) is stringent on many counts. It has to be shown that the family is monetarily secure and psychologically sound.

    That indeed makes much sense to me, but-isn't there a real Irony about this?

    Daylia, I admire your willingness to see beyond your bounds in this thread. You've taken it well for the most part and come out, I hope if not wiser, still willing to look around, listen and learn. Would that we all could do that more often!

    ..xx..e


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 02:42 PM

    Daylia does not have an "odd cutesy manner". Not in the least. She sometimes clowns around though, in a very jocular fashion. The printed word is not adequate to convey it.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:06 PM

    Well I hope I wasn't taken as characterizing Daylia that way--I don't get the comparison to the Misery character, is what I meant. And I hope my earlier attempts at mock-feud weren't taken seriously either--I had the impression that Daylia WAS clowning, and tried to go with it.

    I did the classes with my wife, read books, tried to be prepared, but still felt like a criminal abducting a baby when we went home with our first. Second one, well, we had given up thinking by then.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:39 PM

    When I read the posts, I hear them in the voice as I imagine it would sound. Doesn't everyone? Sometimes just the style of writing istantly makes me think of x y or z. And I hear them read the post.this is looking weird, but honestly isn't.

    Anyway, Daylias posts on this thread all made me think of Kathy Bates' voice in Misery. Again something to do with the way she adds little rhetorical questions onto the ends of sentences. If you are familiar with the character just re read one of daylia's posts and imagine? I can almost feel the snow falling.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:12 PM

    Boy. That is truly horrifying. I have a fairly good idea of what the movie "Misery" might be like...due to some amusing parodies I've seen of it here and there...and that character Kathy Bates played is so unlike daylia that it's...it's...

    It's like comparing George Bush Jr to Meryl Streep or Richard Nixon to Robert E. Lee...or something along that line.

    It just doesn't compute. :-) No flippin' resemblance whatsoever.

    I begin to dread, Guest, how you are imagining my voice sounding... :-)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:20 PM

    LH I am not saying their characters have any similarities. I really do just mean that daylias writing puts Kathy Bates voice in my head.It could just as easily have been Mary Poppins, but wasn't. It doesn't imply anything...honest.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:35 PM

    Okay, I understand. :-) No problem. It must be weird, though.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:41 PM

    I thought everyone did it? So when you read a post from someone that you don't know..who's voice do you hear? Your own or one that you imagine that person has? You've got me worried now.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:44 PM

    I hear LOTS of voices. I will tell you what they say if one of them tells me it's OK..


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:45 PM

    Thanks that's consoling :)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:49 PM

    Well, here's what happens. I don't hear their voice...I get their words mentally, that's all, and a feeling about their personality...BUT...I usually see a face and general appearance! After awhile I get so curious that I try and find out what they really look like (assuming there are photos of them on the site)...and they almost NEVER look anything like the mental picture I had of them.

    When I found out what Spaw actually looks like, for instance, it was such a shock that I just sort of wandered around for several days bumping into walls and babbling incoherently. :-)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:51 PM

    . . . an LOTS of voices from the console, too.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:56 PM

    For instance, GUEST, I am picturing you as a man, maybe mid-thirties, average height and figure, fairly short sandy-colored hair and horn-rimmed glasses, fair skin, very conventional appearance and clothing, agreeable expression.

    You look like an office clerk or an accountant or something.

    Am I way off?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM

    Aha I think that's ok then. I hear them but don't see them, you see them but don't hear them.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:00 PM

    Yeah. It's quite intriguing, actually.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:06 PM

    LH you are right with the age. And I hope I have an agreeable expression! But you have uncannily described my next door neighbour.we could be onto something here.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:32 PM

    Wow. That's spooky. Does his wife have curly, dark hair?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:39 PM

    No wife. Short haired black cat. I am off to bed assured of my sanity. Thankyou LH.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 21 Aug 04 - 01:24 AM

    I've looked up people on National Public Radio for this reason. None of them are correct. I KNOW Terri Gross is blonde, long blonde, found her haircut early in life and stuck with it. Also, plays guitar, because of how she laughed at mention of a Mel Bay book.
    But only Sylvia Pojoli looks exactly like she sounds.

    Sometimes it's fun to listen to songs in languages you don't speak and decide what they're about.

    And gays should have important and basic civil rights under law, whether it makes us think of butt-fucking or not. Has nobody ever tried it?

       From way back, I'm still trying to think of who these vociferous self-important gay spokespeople are, the ones who compare to over-the-top agenda-ists from other minority groups. I heard the point, got it, thought I got it, but, um, I don't know who or where they are. Ellen Degeneres--is she like the gay Don King, or what? The most in-your-face person I can think of isn't entirely gay, but just dabbling. Who are we talking about? Where? What?

    What I don't like about gay marriage: Barbie doll meets Gore Vidal.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 21 Aug 04 - 07:05 PM

    Anybody else besides me read the threads in reverse chronological order? Surprisingly, the conversational arguments still make sense.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,TIA
    Date: 21 Aug 04 - 08:00 PM

    !od yeht dna ,did I ,seY


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 21 Aug 04 - 09:31 PM

    I've always read history books that way.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,fred miller
    Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:08 AM

    I always post that way. I figure the last thing I'll want to say, work back, and only start posting when I'm done.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:41 AM

    So, Fred, you actually start shortly after you finish, right? LOL


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,*daylia*
    Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:53 AM

    I've often thought it absurd that there are no regulations covering who can actually PRODUCE children! Seriously, considering what a responsibility it is (or should be) one would think some kind of perparation would be in order.

    Heck! We have to pass a test to get a driver's license, is raising children easier???

    But of course that isn't going to happen, is it? People would scream bloody murder if they thought their natural rights were being tampered with.

    Yet the adoption procedure (even for ANIMALS) is stringent on many counts. It has to be shown that the family is monetarily secure and psychologically sound.

    That indeed makes much sense to me, but-isn't there a real Irony about this?



    Ellenpoly, thank you. It's a relief to see that someone on this thread really understands where my concerns were coming from. I mustn't have done such a bad job trying to express myself after all.

    Bagpuss is right - it's not adoptive parents (gay or straight) who present the greatest risk to kids. At least they are publicly screened!

    It's the people who put their own urges and wants ahead of the best interests of any kids they produce. The ones who'd use a baby as a meal ticket, or to boost their self-esteem. Those children get even less protection than the abandoned animals at the Humane Society. Everyone around them "minds their own business" until the worst happens - and by then the damage has already been done.

    That's how the baby I knew died. Her landlady - a friend of mine - had suspected that she wasn't being cared for properly and had tried, tactfully, to make helpful suggestions and offer assistance a couple times. It's child-mother just ignored her. And while my friend was humming and hawing, struggling with the social "norm" of MYOB when it comes to other people and their families, getting up the nerve to call the Children's Aid - the baby died.

    Oh, by the way I was looking through the journals I kept at the time, and that baby was not 4 but 11 weeks old when it died. I remembered it as younger, it was so very tiny - and I just wanted to clear that up.

    A couple weeks ago, my 20yr old friend had introduced me to two of his teenage "street-sisters", and told me later they'd offered themselves as surrogate moms (for a fee of course) whenever he and his partner wanted a kid. He said he had a couple other street buddies back in Toronto willing to do the same thing.

    Old-fashioned bigoted codger that I am, I found this idea more than a little worrisome, and started posting on this thread a couple days later. And now I see that if I want to help, the best I can do is just to be there for him, no matter what happens - NOT to argue (uselessly) about whether or not he or others in his situation should be "allowed" to carry out plans like these.

    ...But maybe the friggin' thread could be used to address the friggin' subject. It matters. It's not so easy. Heterosexual marriage and family is up there with the ancient verities, as Faulkner called them. It's a big friggin' deal, after all, isn't it? Here it is knocking at the door. It's not hunger, granted, but it is what it is. The Norm--it's not easy and natural, people work very hard to uphold it, as a value in their lives, and here come very different terms. It matters.

    ... But I don't come down so hard that I blame people, too much, for reservations.


    Fred, you are RIGHT ON. Thanks for being so understanding and posting what you did.

    On the other hand, I think the trouble with calling people bigots, is... I don't know, aren't we? to some extent, most of us? A bit? No?

    Yes I think we are, Fred. It's called 'cultural conditioning'. Sociologists call it personal bias, and take painstaking measures to compensate for it in their research methods. It's a natural part of what every human being is, how every human being learns.

    Oh, and if you're serious about doubting if gays really do engage in anal intercourse, I suggest you simply type the word "gays" in your Google search-bar, and click on "Images".


    daylia

    PS I'm just gonna hafta look up a Kathy Bates movie now! And hey, maybe adding little rhetorical questions at the end of sentences is a Canadian trait, eh?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
    Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:44 PM

    bloody pufters, there taking over!
    theyve even got one in Coronation Street now!
    is nothing sacred?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: LilyFestre
    Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM

    Personally, I am for gay marriage. If two consenting adults love one another and want to get married.....they should be able to! I think it's hard enough to find love in this world and when you find it and it suits you and isn't hurting anyone else, GO FOR IT!

    Love is love, period, end of story.

    Michelle


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Clinton Hammond
    Date: 25 Nov 04 - 05:10 PM

    If yer not f#cking me, I don't care who yer f#cking

    But I might ask to watch...

    :-)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

    If it weren't for threads like this one...and the media in general...I doubt that I would ever even think about gay marriage. I neither like nor dislike it. I don't care.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:55 PM

    Wait! I thought of something. I dislike gay marriage because by definition it excludes heterosexuals, asexuals, and dwarf rabbits!

    That's discrimination.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
    Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:09 PM

    I agree, i demand the right to be married to a dwarf rabbit [and a goat].
    Best wishes.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:48 PM

    "If I was gay, I wouldn't get in everybody's face about it all the time...and I wouldn't hide it either. I'd just relax about it and be who I was and leave other people alone about it. And that is exactly what I would prefer the religious right to do as well...leave other people alone." Little Hawk

    What other process is there, Little Hawk? The change from having no legal rights to full equality under the law tends to create a chaotic period. It took a long time and a great deal of agitation before women in the US (and longer in England) won the simple right to vote. When one reads the history, it comes through very clearly that many people - probably mostly men, but also many women- became tired of the subject and wished it would just go away. It took more than 70 years of in-your-face-activism before the passage of the 19th Amendment, and I'm sure that there was a LOT of shouting and ill will on both sides both before and after those 70 years.

    Does nayone today feel the need to argue the merits of it?

    And, Little Hawk, you say:
    "...quite possibly partly because of natural health reasons (anal intercourse is hard on the body in various ways, and is clearly not a very natural process for a body to undergo...the anus is there to eject waste matter, and that is its sole bodily purpose)." (What about the mouth, Little Hawk? Its only non-arguable function is for the intake of food and the harbo(u)r for speech.)

    I would say that accepted and agreed upon uses of anything are not necessarily the final answers. It has sometimes occurred to me that some things- beauty, for instance - are what we say they are. It is the way we are wired. A slightly different wiring might produce the opinion that glistening wet black mud teeming with tiny critters has more aesthetic appeal than a limpid blue sky with puffy white clouds.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST
    Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:57 PM

    Well spoken Ebbie, with words coming out of your fingers, not your mouth. And I thought anuses were for rubbing on roller-coaster seats.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 25 Nov 04 - 09:34 PM

    That too, Guest. :)


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:51 AM

    Ebbie - Well, I guess this issue pushes your emotional buttons more than it does mine, maybe. :-) It's virtually a non-issue to me as long as people live and let live. It's sad that some don't.

    And I don't agree in the least with your analogy about the uses of the mouth. Having sex with the mouth does not hurt the body. Having sex with anal penetration does hurt the body over a period of time...sometimes very seriously. It is natural to use the mouth to nuzzle, touch, taste, and express affection, as is seen with both animals and human beings very commonly. It is not natural to penetrate anuses with penises, in my opinion, but I do not suggest depriving people of the legal right to do so if they wish to (in private). That's their business, not mine or anyone else's.

    Like I said, live and let live.

    I am bothered by the more shrill advocates on both sides of this political football (and that's exactly what it is at this point). I'd say they deserve each other.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Paco Rabanne
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:44 AM

    Pufta's in Coronation Street?? Who is the thespian playing the character jOhn? Is it Larry Grayson?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:09 AM

    I thought it was Willie Grand.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: freda underhill
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:34 AM

    Like anything else, its a non issue for people who it doesnt effect.

    Scenario: Alan and George have lived together in their mansion in Double Bay for thirty years. George dies.

    Alan is beside himself, meanwhile, George's siblings, who disowned George years ago because he is gay, decide they want the property. They take Alan to court, argue that he was only a tenant and no longer has rights to the property. the judge who is homophobic agrees, house goes to George's homophobic siblings.

    Thats why gay people want marriage, not because theyre all starry eyed, particularly, but because they want to make a legal commitrment to each other, and look after each other the way other people do. in Insurance, property, and other similar areas.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Paco Rabanne
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:36 AM

    Why not just make a will, and leave marriage to us heterosexuals?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: freda underhill
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:41 AM

    because people should have equal rights to benefits in any society.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:06 AM

    That's right. They should.

    By the way, freda, there are plenty of things that don't affect me which are still significant issues to me, I can assure you. However, the gay marriage controversy just doesn't interest me much.

    Still, I keep dropping in on this thread anyway... :-)

    And here's something ironical. It is my opinion that the people who most oppose gay marriage are in fact totally unaffected in any material or substantial sense by gay people getting married! Yet they care greatly about this issue. In fact, they are emotionally obsessed with it.

    The last thing in the world they are willing to do, it seems, is live and let live.

    People who want to force everyone else to be like them are a curse upon the World.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: DougR
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

    Marriage to me means between a man and a woman. Jeri may well be right, I may feel that way because it is traditional. It has worked for most folks for many years, though, and I see no logical reason to change it.

    I favor civil unions for people of the same sex who wish to live together and qualify for the same benifits as married folks have.

    DougR


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:16 PM

    I agree with you, DougR. But I go further. As someone said WAY up top - Blackcatter?- why not have civil union for everyone who wishes to partner up and then those who want to go further have a marriage ceremony performed in their church or mosque or synagogue. Keep the government out of marriage. Make civil union the standard for taxes, health insurance and property issues.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: JohnInKansas
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:44 PM

    Much of the discussion here mirrors what I see as the common fallacy of those who want to change the law(s) to prohibit gay marriage. The fallacy is that "marriage" means only one thing, and always means the same thing in all contexts.

    Many years ago, when I was "counseled" on my pending marriage, my minister explained that:

    1. The "marriage" LICENSE is something you should get, to allow the two of you to buy and sell property together, mess up each other's life insurance, and all those other "business" things that the government regulates. You need to get one; but if you want to know about what it does to you, or for you, you need to talk to a lawyer or an accountant.

    2. The marriage SACRAMENTS belong to the church, and the SACRAMENT OF MARRIAGE in our church, which you agree to observe, is something the government doesn't control. They can't send you to jail if you violate a sacrament, but OUR CHURCH takes the SACRAMENT of marriage very seriously.

    In other words, there's no reason to define a "Civil Marriage License" differently than a "License for Civil Union," because the Marriage License is ONLY a license for "Civil Union" until/unless you participate in the sacrament(s) of your own religion.

    Historically, marriage was a "church thing." If you wanted to be "married" you talked to the priest or other appropriate "minister," followed the rules of the church, and the "marriage" was recorded in church records. "Civil Marriage" is a relatively recent invention in many places, and you get a "license to be married" in order to reveal to the rest of the people that you follow "married rules" on the acquiring, owning, and disposing of property.

    In simplest form, the CIVIL MARRIAGE is an agreement to grant each other permanent and complete "power of attorney" in matters of secular law, so that property acquired by one is owned jointly by both, and any legal obligation assumed by one is owed by both. Either may make decisions for the other, in any matter affecting life, death or property. Of course, as in anything "legal" the simple becomes extremely complex in practice; but ALL MARRIAGE LICENSES are ONLY a license to form a CIVIL UNION. The "law" does not (at least should not) impose any requirement to observe or not observe religious sacraments, to have or not have sex, to produce or not to produce children. The law is intended to regulate property, so that the rest of the world knows how to deal with the "couple acting as one."

    To enact a law prohibiting any persons "of a particular kind" from engaging in one kind of civil contract is exactly like the same prohibition for any other kind of contract. While I'm sure that many now agitating for a prohibition against "marriage" of "gays" would find it satisfying, I don't believe that prohibiting "gays" from being a principal in any "Class X Corporation" or "Regulation Y Partnership" would stand as not discriminatory, and the action licensed by the (civil) marriage license is, legally, no different than any other form of civil association.

    Any person who has legal standing to make a contract (i.e. who is a person) and who meets the statutory requirements for a given kind of contract (e.g. not a felon, drunk, judged insane, etc.) should be able to make any kind of contract recognized by secular law. In all jurisdictions I know, any (heterosexual) couple can appear before a designated public official, and license a CIVIL MARRIAGE, have that marriage affirmed before an appropriate, usually designated, CIVIL WITNESS and be "legally" married. The church is not involved. (The limitation that only a "heterosexual couple" may form a civil marriage seems irrational, but so is a lot of other state law; and similarly "irrational" restrictions are fairly common.)

    A church that choses to do so may restrict who is permitted to receive the ministering of any of their own sacraments and/or rituals, including the sacrament of a "church" marriage. A church may refuse to recognize as "married," for purposes of their own, persons married under civil law until their own sacrmental rituals are performed and the appropriate vows exchanged. Historically, many churches have demanded a "ritual marriage" before accepting a "civil marriage." Some churches, similarly, refuse to recognize a civil dissolution of a marriage under nearly any circumstance. That's something entirely separate, and the law shouldn't care.

    A church that demands the intervention of civil law to enforce their sacraments is a failed church, and invites civil intervention in ALL their sacraments. (Isn't "confession" a self-incrimination prohibited by the US Constitution, and isn't therefore the refusal to administer "holy communion" to one who hasn't been to "confession" an unacceptable "discrimination" and shouldn't the "minister" who dispenses ingestibles be subject to state regulation of sanitation and product purity, and be licensed? How many "license fees" can we collect here? How much meddling is invited?)

    A person who insists that the "government" must enforce his/her "articles of faith" has very little true faith. For most of the faiths with which I'm familiar, insisting that "all marriages are sacred" implies little knowledge of what one's own faith requires in order that a marriage be "blessed," and/or an appalling lack of comprehension of what's going on in the "real world."

    For those who just "don't like ***," I can be more sympathetic. The world is full of people who are stupid and irrational, and who do things I find annoying, foolish, dangerous, and otherwise objectionable; but they are people who have legal standing in my community, and I will grant to them, and defend for them, their right to be stupid and irrational – even to disagree with me, as long as they don't try to force me be like them by advocating laws that prevent me from being stupid and irrational and perhaps even annoying according to my own preferences. (I find over-amped music quite annoying, but enjoy playing my mandolin badly; although I've been told "there ought to be a law…")

    Inherent in the agitation for new laws is the foolish belief that passing a law will make something "not happen." The only thing a law can do is define "what it costs to do it." Attempting to "pass a law" to prevent a common behavior that does not substantially threaten the community is for the small-minded. I see no substantial damage to society from permitting people to form, and to have legally (secularly) acknowledged, their own personal associations, even though they may apply different values than mine in their choice of partners. I see great damage to my community in the imposing of "sacredness" in any matter of secular/civil law.

    John


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:48 PM

    JiC: That is a wonderful piece of writing. Good on yer.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:14 PM

    Well said, John. It's clearly the person's own definition of the word "marriage" and all that it means that is behind most of the misunderstandings in this particular matter...

    That, and the desire to control other people, allied with the fear of that which is unfamiliar.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: DougR
    Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:53 PM

    "Desire to control other people, L.H.?" You mean like issuing a driver's license, a fishing license, setting speed limits, requiring folks to pay taxes? Stuff like that?

    DougR


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: LadyJean
    Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:05 AM

    A lady I know was 46 when she married a 23 year old man. The Catholic church wouldn't marry them. (She'd been divorced twice before.) So they were married in a very high church Episcopal ceremony. She is now 62, and they're still married. They adopted a boy, privately, without an agency. They are not what you would call good parents. But nobody interfered, seriously, with their marriage, or their adoption.
    My one and only objection to gay marriage is that my sister has horrible taste in women. You should see the nut casses she takes up with. She stayed with the last one for almost 7 years. At least there wasn't any legal tie between them.
    But I don't see why my sister shouldn't have the same right to marry losers that straight women do.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Leadfingers
    Date: 27 Nov 04 - 05:52 AM

    So who wants SAD Marriage ?? Just to even up the post number by the way !


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 27 Nov 04 - 09:30 AM

    Matter of fact, Doug, there was a happy time upon this land when there were no driver's licences, no speed limits, you coud fish when and where you pleased, and there were NO taxes! :-) Admittedly, there were other nasty problems...like intertribal warfare, for instance. Anyway, things were generally pretty good for the most part and people were much freer than they are now.

    Then all those frigging paleskins came across the Great Water from Europe with their Bibles and their guns and money and everything went to shit!

    Now there are so many people here, so many roads, and so little unspoiled land left that it has become necessary to have driving licenses, fishing licenses, speed limits, and taxes! Disgusting, but necessary.

    Be that as it may, it is not necessary to have laws prohibiting gay marriage. Driving too fast can kill people. Fishing too much can wipe out fish stocks. Driving on public roads without learning how to first is dangerous. It is (theoretically) impossible to finance government and public services without taxes...

    But...it is entirely possible to live next door to a gay couple without anything happening that will cause you to lose your life or go bankrupt! You don't like their lifestyle choices? Tough! Maybe I don't like your choices in clothing. So what?


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Peace
    Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:09 PM

    One of our fromer Prime Ministers said, "We have NO business in the bedrooms of the nation." He was right.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Firecat
    Date: 27 Nov 04 - 08:04 PM

    As far as I'm concerned, people can't help who they fall in love with and want to spend the rest of their live with.

    I know people who think it's "repulsive", and that "it shouldn't be allowed", and have witnessed homophobic abuse myself (I managed to get rid of the people who were doing it), but if there were no differences between people, beliefs and sexual orientation, the world would be a very boring place.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: dianavan
    Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:21 PM

    The only reason that gay marriage is an issue at all is because the insurance don't want to pay the extra benefits and social security doesn't want to pay spousal benefits.

    As far as the kids go - anybody knows that you don't have to be married to have kids, anyway.

    d


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:45 PM

    And those kids I kind of feel sorry for dianavan, the ones without strong family ties.

    If I am not mistaken, gay marriage was just shot down in 11 states where it was on the ballot.

    Cool.

    I am sick of having all of this political correct shit shoved down my throat. I think most of America just said they weren't going to stand for it, either.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: Cruiser
    Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM

    Homosexuality is repugnant behavior. If you must engage in such depraved acts don't force the rest of us to recognize and respect such by calling it marriage. Call it civil union or whatever...


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: dianavan
    Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:15 PM

    Save your pity for children who have abusive fathers, Martin.

    d


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Joseph
    Date: 03 Dec 04 - 12:21 PM

    I think maybe the way conservative people can protect the sanctity of marriage is by outlawing divorce, not by outlawing others to marry. I am being sarcastic, This in not about protecting marriage it is about being homophobic and trying to have power and control of a minority group. I want all you conservative people to be aware that no matter what laws you try to pass, I will still consider myself married to my husband and there is nothing you will be able to do about that. Tell that to your Churches. I don't need your Church to approve my love for my husband, there are accepting Churches for homosexuals.

    Thank god you don't have as much power as Hitler, and then I'm sure homosexuals would be burned at the stake.

    Ciao


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
    Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM

    The majority of people are gettin' fed up with your political BS too, Martin. Maybe they will legislate your sorry ass out of inflicting further pain and harassment on an innocent public that would like to be left alone by mouthy knee-jerks like you. I think a majority of citizens would vote in favour of such legislation, and by your reasoning that would be the way to go, wouldn't it? The majority is always right, aren't they, Martin? Who cares about individuals who don't fit "the norm", right? Well, you sure as hell don't fit anyone's "norm", to put it mildly.

    Enjoy it while you can, buddy, cos your big yap is soon gonna be illegal in my state of Illinois, pal, so mouth off while you still can or else move to Canada or Holland or some politically correct liberal place that can put up with shitheads like you! No gay marriage in Illinois and no more goddamn BS from Martin Gibson either! The majority rules, baby! Oook! Oook!


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    Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
    From: GUEST,guest "ohshenandoah"
    Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM

    Getting back to the question that started the thread--
    Gay marriage is linked to anal sex and many people find anal sex disgusting. Exhibit A: Martin Gibson.
    <>

    Martha C. Nussbaum [the Ernst Freund Distinguished Service Professor of Law and Ethics at the University of Chicago,] said "Disgust is never a good legal argument." Her dispute with disgust rests largely on psychological evidence. She cites the work of the experimental psychologist Paul Rozin, who, after testing people's reactions to different disgusting substances, concluded that the core objects of disgust — feces, spit and semen — are all things that remind people of their own animality and decay. Disgust is revulsion at the prospect of taking decaying animal products into the body, she says. It guards the body's borders.
    ... The problem, Ms. Nussbaum says, is that many things seem disgusting only by association. People won't eat chocolate that has been molded to look like dog doo, or soup served from a sterilized bedpan. More to the point, people learn to hate by linking their natural sense of disgust to certain people. Misogyny, she argues, is based on the idea of women as sewers, receptacles for sperm.
    http://www.truthinjustice.org/emotion-law.htm
    <>

    My second point-- The bible never explicitly states that homosexuality is wrong. You can go through the Bible with a fine tooth comb, and cull out a few passages. But when you go back to the original Greek or Aramaic, the word that is used means "temple prostitute." So the patriarchs were saying, People should not have sex with whores [of both sexes] at the temples.   

    I have a wonder ful cartoon of angry micro-organisms gathered round a bride and groom micro-organism. They are shouting, "You are defying millennnia of single-cell reproduction!"

    In geological time, or biological time, the insitution of Western European nuclear families is just a blink.


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