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Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks

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Subject: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:47 PM

This may or may not be a BS thread but it is music-related. Linda Ronstadt, in concert at the Aladdin Theater in Las Vegas, urged the audience to see "Fahrenheit 9/11" and referred to Michael Moore as "a great American patriot".

To find out what happened, click here.

What is happening to free speech in this benighted country?

Cheers,
Michael
Moved to the non-music side of the forum, just because it's more political than musical.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:57 PM

I've always liked Linda Ronstadt. Even more, now.

It sounds like she wasn't too broken up that they fired her.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:10 PM

Freedom of speech?... listen to the moveon.org ad of Bill O'Reilly saying "Shut UP" over and over again. If you don't agree with the Republican talking points (aka Fox "news") then you are supposed to shut up.
Here is the link to the video/audio:
Click here


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:14 PM

Good for her! I'd have stood up and applauded!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:17 PM

Wotta gal!! Get it SAID Linda!!


A


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:21 PM

Free speech is one thing, this seems to be another. She was giving a concert, and I'd assume that the content was discussed, at least in general, with her employers ahead of time. I also assume that her decision to praise Mr. Moore was not an entirely impromptu one. She had an obligation to inform the promoters in advance if she planned to make controversial statement so that they could have an opportunity to decide if they would permit this in their theater. If they knew she was planning to make these statements, let her go ahead, and then kicked her out, that is plainly wrong. If she didn't bother to tell them, she deserved what she got.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:24 PM

Business-wise, maybe. Ethically she stands head and shoulders above the audience and the management on this little caper.

That's my opinion, anyway.

A


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Mooh
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:38 PM

I've always liked that girl! Now I've got even more reason. Back in the '70s I had a Rolling Stone magazine picture of her over my bed. I'm glad she's increased the reasons for liking her as she's got older.

God bless her.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:46 PM

Yeah, Linda. "When ya leave you're gonna leave a babbling fool behind." And ya did.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:52 PM

Get out the brooms! ClearChannel gonna get everyone to bust up their Linda Ronstadt CD's in the streets tomorrow.

(Ahhhhh, Bobert. The folks that like Linda Ronstadt ain't ClearChannel kinda folks...)

Nevermind, ya' can put the broom back in the closet...

Go, Linda,go...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: harpgirl
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:04 PM

artbrooks, Linda has no obligation to do any such thing unless it was in her contract. She takes the risk of not being paid for work when she says or does controversial things.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Shula
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:24 PM

Dear folks,

The scary thing is how many entertainers and protestors, since Bush "took" office, have faced being shut out or shut down in one fashion or another, by people afraid of retaliation. Its the "chill factor" of corporate censorship that seems to be at work -- and frighteningly so. I greatly fear that the Bushistas have long wooden noses, long, vindictive memories -- and an even longer reach.

Shula


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:26 PM

It has ever been thus, Shula, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,LUCIA
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:38 PM

I get so tired of Hollywood people simply assuming we are interested in their opinions-regardless of whether we agree with them or not.
There's a time and a place for everything. If I'm paying big bucks for a concert, I'd like a concert please. Not political commentary.

Amos,Don,brucie-would you want your urologist with his finger up your rear blathering on about how great Geo Bush is? Do you want your barber's opinion on abortion when your paying for a trim? Maybe your dentists views on Jesus Christ as his personal savior while he's drilling away at a cost of hundreds of dolllars per tooth? Of course not. You'd make a fuss just like the people at the concert who disagreed with Linda did, and likely take your business elsewhere next time and not be too concerned with those people's right to free speech. In a social setting such discussions are all well and good, but for gods sake spare me the political opinions when you've got me paying real, hard earned dollars for something else.

Is Bush an idiot, a war mongering, inarticulate untrustworthy tool of big corporate GOP donors? No, he's probably something much worse.

Can Linda Ronstadt sing better than 99.9% of the rest of the white chicks on this planet.Well, I always thought so, but whatever,that doesn't make her views on politics of any interest to me.

We wouldn't accept this kind of behavior if it came from public figures we disagree with. It's time to stop excusing it from those with whom we do agree.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:42 PM

Tell that to Arnie.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Blackcatter
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:55 PM

To some extent I'm with Lucia.

If Linda wants to speak out politically, she can write opinion articles for newspapers, hook up with an appropriate "soft money" org. and do radio and TV ads saying her piece, hold a press conference, whatever, but if I'm paying good money to see her in concert, I don't really want to here her political view, regardless of whether I agree or not. It's the same as bank tellers, grocery clerks, DMV clerks, etc.

Do I think Linda should be fired, no, but they probably had a right to do so.

Once again, this is not a free-speech issue.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:58 PM

LUcia:

You're missing the point.

Ronstadt is an artist.

She is paid to communicate -- not fill teeth or finger urethrae.

There is something extra about that profession -- it demands integrity or it dries up.

The source of her success was not just being girly, but a sense people heard in her voice that she was speaking some sort of truth, communicating genuinely at least.

She should stop doing that a Vegas floor show crowd? Naaaaah.

A


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:12 PM

If Linda Ronstadt had a contract the specifically disallowed political grand standing she had no business breaking her contract. If she had no such stipulations in her contract then she has every right to speak her mind.

BUT....If you give your word about anything and then break your promise you devalue yourself and the strength of what ever cause you are speaking for. No matter how righteous the cause or elpquent the voice.

I look at Michael Moore the same way I do Woody Allen,

"Still waiting for the funny, Still looking for the art."

As to whether Michael Moore is a great American Patriot, I doubt it.
He is no Ben Franklin, Robert E. Lee, Eleanor Roosevelt, Gerald Ford, Phil Ochs, Morris Dees or a few others I admire and could make a good point about their Patriotism.

Don


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,LUCIA
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:14 PM

Love you Amos but we have to agree to disagree


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:19 PM

Don,

Moore does not have the verdigris of old history on him, nor the aristocracy of Lee or the musicality of Ochs. But he is standing up in the street and, at considerable personal risk, getting it said. In doing so he has mobilized a very large numbe rof people who were just dazed and didn't know whether it was safe to speak or not.

Well, he may not be as great as some of yesterday's patriots, but he is without question a man of sufficient courage to be today's patriot when one is badly needed.

He's not the only one we have either. But he did something no-one else had managed and should be duly acknowledged for it even if he does dress funny.

A


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:28 PM

I love how conservatives manage to pull their head out of their butts whenever somebody criticizes one of their own or heaps praise on somebody they disagree with.

Ronstadt did nothing different than any other performer. Unless you've been living in a vacuum, most artists DO share their views and talk to the audience. You don't have to agree with them, you can even boo like they did in Las Vegas. You can even walk out.   You can wear the fact that you've been banned at Aladdin's as a badge of honor.   If I ever get to Vegas I know of one hotel that I won't spend a dime in.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:34 PM

Amos

The difference with me and Moore and the others I mentioned is this. I believe the others. When they opened their mouths I had no doubts about the truth of their words or that they believed in what they were saying.

I view Moore the same way I do Rush Limbaugh. Except for the fact that they come at me from different political directions and Rush dresses better I hear the same snotty little boy stridency and demogogic pandering to their constituency. But I also hear in what they say to me an aire of hucksterism. A bit of flim flam used to make a point whether they believe themselves or not.

Just my view and certainly not our worth fighting over. But for me, Moore has many miles to go before I will view him as a Patriot.

Don


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:41 PM

I understand that a number of the patrons got real upset and stormed out and that the promoter had Linda removed from the premises...

Just wondering if I were playing some little festival around D.C. what would happen if I said, "I like Bush and think he's doing a great job."???

Prolly not a danged thing. One thing fir sure, I doubt if I'd be removed from stage...

This is starting to get serious here folks. This is purdy much the way the brownshirts behaved in Germany in the 30's...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:48 PM

I admire LR for saying that, and I think it's understandable that she got fired for it. But then, maybe that's what happens when ya stand up and get counted, huh?


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:59 PM

Bobert,

According to Reuters News Service about a quarter of the 4,500 patrons in the hall left and wanted their money back. They apparently tore up posters, threw drinks around and behaved like an ill mannered mob. Imagine, conservative concert goers behaving as an ill mannered mob.

The world is certainly turned upside down. Whats next? Tuxedos and Versaces spilling into the streets, overturning and burning BMWs and Cadillacs, and looting along the Miracle Mile.

Don


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:05 PM

I fear we're not that far from that, Don. I've been seriously considering findin' another country to live out my days in... This one has some serious internal injuries...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:44 PM

I doubt that a Las Vegas casino or other such establishment would fire a performer for encouraging people to support the President and his policies. Neither should they fire a performer for doing the opposite...unless the USA has become a dictatorship where dissent is not permitted any longer.

Think about it.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: MAG
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:17 AM

Go, Linda. (great voice technique, even if I don't like the girly stuff)

Go, Michael (documented every damn thing)

Go, Librarians and other outspoken civil libertarians

Go, everybody who can see that the Bush crowd are seriously beyond right-wing.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:28 AM

Unfortunately, the original story has disappeared. So what DID happen? And more importantly, what details of her contract were given?

Now I work for a theater where I put on concerts; I am essentially a "promoter" in that part of my work. I have never put in a contract anything that limited what the performer could say. Furthermore, a contract outlawing "controversial" statements is likely unenforceable, since this is a value judgment. How did Ronstadt know that praising the most popular documentary in the history of cinema, which won the Palme D'Or at Cannes, would be considered controversial?

Some more questions: If we on the left were at a concert and the performer said, "Here's one for George Bush, who I think is a great president," we wouldn't storm all over the place and demand our money back, would we? Isn't that bizarre behavior?

Why is disagreeing with Bush "controversial," but agreeing with him not controversial?

Finally, why isn't it a free speech issue? Granted, we may not like it if our doctor tells jokes while his finger is you-know-where, but do you think a hospital would fire him for it? As I see it, she was expected to say some things, and to sing some songs, but those were probably not specified by name in her contract. If she is fired because she said something else or sang something else, this is in fact a free speech issue. (If her contract had a "terminate for any reason" clause, that may be a different story--but only because they don't have to specify why they fired her.)

Or to put it another way, if I am hired to give a speech, but they don't like it so they don't pay me, I can sue them and win, unless the content of my speech was specified in my contract, or the contract contains another loophole.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: MAG
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:35 AM

A demagogues operates by appealing to untrammeled emotion and short-circuiting rational thought.

I am sad to learn we are already there.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:39 AM

Linda was pissed at the whole scene already.

The article finnishes with...

In an interview with the Las Vegas Review-Journal before the show, Ronstadt said "I keep hoping that if I'm annoying enough to them, they won't hire me back."

Vegas... Seems that 'Fear and Loathing' is some kind of reaction to something or other... I didn't like the book much either...
ttr


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:42 AM

Ronstadt had every right to speak out. The casino had every right to fire her. Now folks have every right to make some choices. But unfortunately my liberal brethren and sistren are great at running their mouths about how angry they are, and how this country is turning to shit in front of us, but not very good at acting. If all those folks that went to see Fahrenheit 9/11 were to take the simple step of writing the casino owner and telling him that we will never set foot in his casino again while he is there, and then stuck to it, that would be the end of this kind of shit. You see, folks, one can be controversial, as long is one is willing to walk the walk. The conservatives in middle America do this very well. How about the rest of us?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Barry Finn, on another's pc
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:44 AM

My taxes weren't meant for me to have to pay the Rum Don for singing his political shit when I only wanted to listen to & tune into what's happening with our goverment, not interested in being subjected (but, none the less, I was) to the musical claptrap that comes out of his piehole. I demand my tax money back & I demand he should have his goverment contract decleared null & void for acts of treason & terror & that clear channel should pull his spot nation wide. And lastly I demand that the bastard be escorted out of the country & he be stripped of his citizenship, that's right for singing his opinion.

A Patriot is, IMHO, someone who'll, in the face of certain death, say "I regret that I have one life to give for my country", or scream their opposition to "taxes without represention" or fight for women's right to vote or for the equality of all. It's easy to shut up when you're being told to "shut up". It's easy to condem a class of people that have no education, who'll die before their time for lack of some form of heath plan, who live with hunger, who have had their voice & their vote stolen from them, who'll be the uncared for front line cannon fodder in some distant land where they don't understand the language, religion, history or culture. But it's hard, very hard & sometimes damn near impossible to speak & stand up against war & the horrors of humanity without having your name dragged through the mud or your means of livelyhood taken or being blackballed or detained incognito, indefinitly.

Go on Linda, you go girl, she got her beliefs (weither possitive or not) out to a country where now such disagreement can become a death sentence.

We have not seen the likes of Mike Moore in quite some time & if the goverment could have it's way we won't see or hear from his like again. Only history will write him as a patriot or a traitor. But if I'm right my guess he'll be written in as a one of many brave Americans who saw injustice & tried to write it.      
Barry


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:07 AM

I doubt it as well Little Hawk, but for anyone to expect or believe she would be treated other than as she was, is pretty naive, this was not exactly a Folk venue. One thing about speaking your mind politically, in the context of Las Vegas show "business", you should be well aware that there will be a price to pay for taking the liberty of doing so. She was hired to "entertain" all and to involve your audience in an impromptu political rally is not appropriate, no matter how much you agree with her views.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:10 AM

Nerd, I just tried it. (Link in first message.) It's still there.

Barry, that's downright eloquent. If this had been at a concert in 197-something, no one would have batted an eyelash. These days, you speak out against the 'establishment', and you lose your job. Better to go buy a Ronstadt CD or go see Farenheit 9/11. For those who disagree with her politics, but believe a person ought to be able to speak their mind without getting axed, I don't know that there's much you CAN do. Why bother? It's not ever going to be you.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself" - Thomas Paine

Do Americans even believe that anymore?


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:55 AM

If hell has a religion, it's patriotism !

Art


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:59 AM

Thanks Jeri; it is indeed back now.

Big Mick,

problem is, I've never been in a casino before, so my letter won't mean much to 'em. But I agree in principle: if you are a Vegas visitor, let these people know how you feel.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:47 AM

In "Paths Of Glory" (a great film by a great director) ...Kirk Douglas' character Col. Dax delivers a great quote when his commanding officer tries to coerce him to launch a suicidal attack against the Germans with entreaties to 'do it for your country': "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:25 AM

Don

I didn't like all of Moore's opinions in F911 but I couldn't argue with the facts he based them on.

With Rush, I don't like his opinions and it's been pretty well demonstrated that his "facts" are bullshit, mostly because they're based on his opinions.

Moore is mouthy, but he isn't all mouth.

For instance that clip of Bush talking to the "Haves and have-mores" pretty well speaks for itself.

clint


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: mooman
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:08 AM

Good girl Linda, I like you even more than I did before. For some even better stick for Bush and his appalling corrupt cronies go to any Ani DiFranco concert. I've never seen her booed off stage in the several concerts I've been to. Quite the contrary. However, those were in continental Europe. Perhaps the redneck patrons of Las Vegas casinos are another thing.

Peace

moo

P.S. And if you've got anything to add on this Martin Gibson, I'm ignoring you in advance.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:58 AM

mooman, the two venues are as similar as chalk and cheese. The Vegas patrons weren't necessarily all rednecks, some quite probably were confused, aged Canadians, who probably thought that Moore was that nice looking young fellow, from the TV series The Saint. LOL


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 05:39 AM

Attagirl!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 07:01 AM

What Art said.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:55 AM

Most people have absolutely no idea about the 1st amendment or free speech.   It says that people can say anything without fear of government reprisal.   Whether is was the Dixie Chicks, Whoopi, or Linda there was never any kind of government reprisal.   It was the audience (or parts of the audience) who objected.   These performers want the ability to say anything they want, but don't want the public to have the same free speech right to object to what they are saying.

Laura Inghram has a new book out called "Shut up and Sing"   Basically takes the poisition (I haven't read it-have just heard her talking about it) that people go to concerts to hear the music and don't want the political comentary.

Linda has every right to say what she did and the public has every right to stop going to her concerts and stop buying her CD's.    Other people who agree with her have the right to buy several of her CD's and go to many of her concerts to support her.   That is freedom.

Conversely- Many conservatives have been blacklisted in Hollywood for their views.   Liberal talk show host PHil Hendrie wrote a column that his "conservative" tv pilot was canned for being conservative even though he is a liberal.    That is wrong.

PS: AMOS- loved your message on how to write a song. Brilliant


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 10:27 AM

Wow... imagine that... an ill mannered mob at a country music show...

go figure eh...

And in Vegas no less...

Something this rare, must be because of planetary alignment or have been a government mind-control satellite experiment or something...

but...

It's not like LR won't ever work again...   

So fer having the balls to support what she believes in, especially in such a 'volitile', knee-jerk and stupid climate, good for her!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 10:34 AM

I can't imagine why any serious performer would want to do a show in Las Vegas anyway... :-) (except for the money, of course). Am I surprised at the reaction of some of the audience members to Linda's comments? Naw. Casinos attract idiots like shit attracts flies.

As for Hell, I'm sure the levels of patriotism there are very high. It's probably a lot like Las Vegas. (joke)


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 10:34 AM

Guest, Larry K is right. Her rights were not violated by the government at all.

This same controversy has been going on a long time with Peter, Paul, and Mary. In between songs, long political rants which are not represented on the records they sell to the public. I've loved and respected their music over the years. Entertainers such as them and Ronstadt are entitled to speak their opinions on stage, but have to be prepared to face the consequences, whether it's being fired from the venue, people walking out on the, or booing at them as loud as they can.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 10:50 AM

"Entertainers such as them and Ronstadt are entitled to speak their opinions on stage, but have to be prepared to face the consequences"

ANYONE willing to speak an opinion MUST be willing to accept consequences... No one of us lives here all alone eh....

What I'm curious about is when did the opinions of entertainers ever matter more than a hill of beans???

Or anyones for that matter...

Your opinion on ANY subject is yours... and mine is mine... nowhere is it written that we have to or even SHOULD try to agree...

I just don't get why it's even an issue... Why some people get thier knickers so in a knot over the idea that somewhere, someone MIGHT just be DIFFERENT than they are...


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:20 AM

I agree with you Clinton about "anyone"

However, if you bill yourself at a concert that you are going to perform your music, and you waste my time and money by not giving me what I paid for, I also have the right to Boo you loudly and ask for my money back.

It's an issue because these entertainers can make news to spout their ideas because they are in the public eye. Everyday people just aren't and won't make news with their opinions.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:23 AM

Two comments:

One: I agree with everything she's quoted as saying.

Two: She had no business saying it where she did. People paid to be entertained, and she was paid to entertain them. She willfully threw her opinion (with which I agree) in their teeth, when she had to know that she would bitterly offend a large portion of her audience and that even those who agreed with her would have their evening upset. That is an arrogant misuse of the position she was put in.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:26 AM

What I can't understand is why management didn't have one of those wire cages up, like I've seen in Texas and some other parts, to protect her from flying bottles and glass. They were definitely remiss there.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:27 AM

Well, yeah, Clinton. So why would the audience go bananas, and why would the club? Why is it so threatening to people when someone has a different opinion from theirs?

Some performers (like Joan Baez) are known for being politically outspoken...she herself has said that she is really more of a politician than an entertainer...and their audiences go to their shows expecting them to make political comments.

It seems that people get very annoyed when something happens that they didn't expect. Note Dylan's audience's reaction to him going electric in '65...

I was once asked not to sing songs with social commentary in a certain club...since the people who went there were there to smoke cigars, drink, talk, and not think about anything! :-) Thinking just terrifies certain people, and it probably hurts too.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:36 AM

Google News search on Linda Ronstadt.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:36 AM

Come on, Dave O and Martin.

If you are a concert promoter, do you really expect an artist to do nothing but sing songs? Do you really think the performer is obligated to not say anything that might offend anyone in the audience? Do you really think that "I paid to be entertained and this did not entertain me" is an excuse to THROW COCKTAILS?

Honestly, that's ridiculous. "Arrogant misuse of the position?" It sounds to me like a few people in the audience decided to arrogantly misuse their cocktails in order to shut someone up with whom they did not agree.

As for "free speech," this was a principle before it was a law. If such actions as this do not violate the law that doesn't mean they do not violate the principle.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:37 AM

"Everyday people just aren't and won't make news with their opinions"

Then why does nearly every single American (And more and more lately Canadian as well *sigh*) news show at some point say....

"We now go live to Reporter Slippy Liperslips, on mainstreet where he's talking to "The People", and getting "The Opinions That Matter"

Or some such BS....

And invariably the parade of loosers they chose to air seem to be rejects from auditions for "Freakshow 2005"...

To performers the I guess... Fine... have opinions... support whoever and whatever you want... Save the whales... save the snails... hug all the rainbows you want to... give as much money as you want to all your friends at The Psychic Alphabet Soup Hot-line... just, please do like the rest of use should and keep it to yourself... your job is to sing, dance, act, play baseball, or take a 'shot' without getting it in your eye...

If I want to know what your opinion is on something, I'll ask you...

If ya wanna offer 'em to me unbidden, don't be surprised if I heave a flaming bag of cat-turd at ya... or at least demand a refund!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:44 AM

Nerd, free speech is not automatic.

At the workplace, for example it is inappropriate.

again, it is a law that the government cannot suppress it. Anyone you willfully work for in the private sector, can.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:45 AM

they go bananas Little Hawk, for the same reason they'd go off their stick in some areas if Ned Sublet was singing Cowboys Are Secretly Frequently Fond of Each Other. Tis the nature of the beast, a lot of people can't take reality checks and they are already wicked up, in both directions.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:55 AM

or to be more succinct, places Las Vegas are chocked full of people seeking escape. It is the reason it exists.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:37 PM

There is less to this than meets the eye. From The Las Vegas Review-Journal:
    Some concertgoers took issue with the Aladdin's accounts of angry patrons tearing down posters and throwing drink cups.

    "I was so stunned to read in the newspaper that anyone had a negative reaction," said KLAS-TV, Channel 8, news anchor Paula Francis. "Everyone who was leaving when I was leaving was just thrilled. They thought it was a good concert."

    At the end of an hour's worth of singing, "she got a standing ovation, then she came out and did the ('Desperado') encore," Francis said. "There were loud boos and there was quite a bit of applause. But everyone calmed down right away and seemed to enjoy the rest of the encore."
Anyway, it takes a lot of chutzpah to sit through an entire concert and then demand your money back because the artist said something you didn't like during the encore.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:39 PM

Seems to me when you hire somebody, that's who you get.

Don't complain because Utah Phillips isn't Bobby Velour.

clint


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:42 PM

I doubt there was anything in her contract that prevented her from making whatever comments she chose. I'm with the few of you who question why anybody would be interested in her opinion. Great singer though.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:48 PM

Unfortunately, she has made matters worse with her latest quote in defense of her actions.   Linda said that she can't enjoy a concert if she knows there are conservatives or right wing christians in the audience and therefore would rather not know.

That is NOT making the situation any better.   It only shows her own limitations to living in hollywood where other peoples opinions ar not welcome.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:52 PM

Doug, if you only care about the singing then you buy the CD.   If you go to the show, you let the artist put on their show. If it includes Linda Ronstadt talking about Michael Moore or Toby Keith wrapping himself in the flag - that is the part of the artist's personna and the show. If you expect the artist to shut up and just sing the songs you are fooling yourself.

Hmmm... people getting up and walking out during an ENCORE. Political statement or people trying to get to their car before the crowd.   Once again the rightwing press seems to have blown something out of proportion.   And the have the balls to call it a "liberal" media. Far from it.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:05 PM

Sorry, that's "Tommy" Velour.

clint


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:09 PM

Ron Olesko, I find it very funny how guys like you call in the "right wing press" when it's for your convenience and the Sean Hannity's of the world call it the "left wing press" at their convenience.

If you don't like the newspaper, don't buy it. You both have the same rant. what's it feel like?


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:14 PM

Feels pretty good actually.   I love it when conservatives feel it is okay to start name calling but when others try to do it we are "ranting".

Just doing what you do so well Martin - pressing buttons. The fact is most of us are born with brains. We read, absorb, and make decisions. I do not let the "ranters" make up my mind for me. While I am not a fan of his (having been in his employ for 12 years), Jack Welch is quoted as saying "If I have to listen to someone's opinion it might as well be my own".


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: open mike
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:17 PM

this would be a good time to support linda, if you are so inclined, by purchasing her recordings, here is one place: http://www.elektra.com/lindaronstadt/
or buying a ticket to her next gig!
here is the schedule:
# July 17, 2004 - Aladdin Hotel & Casino - Las Vegas, Nevada
# July 18, 2004 - Humphrey's By the Bay - San Diego, California
# July 20, 2004 - Universal Amphitheatre - Universal City, California
# July 22, 2004 - Wente Concerts at the Vineyard - Livermore, Ca
# July 23, 2004 - Villa Montalvo Center for the Arts - Saratoga, Ca
# July 24, 2004 - Marin Veterans Memorial Auditorium - San Rafael, Ca
# July 25, 2004 - Konocti Harbor Resort & Spa - Kelseyville, Ca
# July 27, 2004 - Summer Nights at the Pier - Seattle, Washington
# Sept. 14, 2004 - Bass Performance Hall - Fort Worth, Texas
# Sept. 15, 2004 - Bass Performance Hall - Fort Worth, Texas
# Sept. 17, 2004 - Walton Performing Arts Center - Fayetteville, Ark.
# Sept. 18, 2004 - Walton Performing Arts Center - Fayetteville, Ark.
http://www.lindaronstadt.com/
http://www.ronstadt-linda.com/--the wierd thing is with this page
if you try to look up something about linda, it jumps over the
michael moore's page witha n article about her...getting the boot.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:26 PM

...and by the way Martin, I notice that you did not disagree with my comment about the walking out on the encore. Whether or not the writer of the article was a conservative or liberal, it does appear that there are alternate opinions.   It is amazing how we all choose to believe what we want to believe.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:34 PM

Well, don't anyone ever go to see Sparky Rucker if you can't take a little preachin" 'cause yer gonna get it...

Like Sparky says "If yer gonna get the song, yer gonna get the sermon".

Now I mentioned a while back on a similar thread that it is the *responsibility* of artists to take hold, look around and try to capture the flavor of their times... When you take that away you reduce art to musac, be it musical, visual, prose, poetry 'er whatever...

There is a real danger when a sigment of society becomes so brainwashed that they cannot tolerate other folks view points and America is rapidly becoming just that... It is also an eraly warning sign that facism, which I know a lot of Bush apologists don't like hearing, is working within the society...

Now I know this will make DougR real happy but I have first the first time in my life given thought to finding another country that is more tolerant of opposing view points. I'm not saying I have decided but at least it is a consideration. I reckon if Diebold instills Bush fir another 4 years, it will get moved off the rear burner because I firmly believe that should that happen if won't be long before we have right winged vigilante organizations beating up progressives and getting them fired from their jobs and all that wonderful stuff...

But until then, keep firing away Linda, Dixie Chicks and Sparky...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:38 PM

Nerd asked me:

If you are a concert promoter, do you really expect an artist to do nothing but sing songs?

Yes. An exception might be someone like Joan Baez, whose schtick is heavily political anyway, or Utah Phillips, ditto. But people who attend an appearance of those and like performers are signing up for that kind of show.

Do you really think the performer is obligated to not say anything that might offend anyone in the audience?

By and large, Yes, if the offensive material is foreign the the basis of the act as promoted. And by the way, her comments were (and could have been expected to be) offensive not just to "anyone in the audience" but to a very large proportion of the audience, if one is to believe the descriptions I've read.

Do you really think that "I paid to be entertained and this did not entertain me" is an excuse to THROW COCKTAILS?

No. But I did not justify the overreaction. I criticized the judgment and the attitude of the performer.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:47 PM

There is a question here about how much control the Alladin should have over Linda's performance there.

When we perform in schools, we represent the school in some way to the students. Therefore, we feel obligated not to sing or say anything that is contrary to what the school is trying to teach. This is particularly important if it is a parochial school. We have a regular gig at a facility owned by the Bureau of Land Management and they pay part of our fee. The rest is payed by a volunteer group that supports the facility. Here again, we represent the BLM to the audience so we are careful about what we sing and say. Likewise when we did a benefit concert for the local Historical Society. If we piss off someone in the audience, the Historical Society loses support.

On the other hand, when we do a house concert, we feel free to express our opinions about anything, especially politics.

Now, when Linda performs at the Alladin, she is, to some extent, representing the Alladin. Certainly not to the extent of any of the examples we cited above but probably a little more than, say, a house concert or a privately produced show at some theater. It's a gray area in this case.

On the other hand, the Alladin should know who they are hiring. If they are worried about offending their audience, they should have made that clear to Linda beforehand. If it were us, we would have done the same thing she did in this case but not in some other cases.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:54 PM

Dave, while Linda Ronstadt is not in the same catagory as Baez or Phillips, she has been known to share her views. I heard her on a local talk show with a host who is known for his conservative views (Mark DeSimone).   He was expecting to chat about her latest album on a Saturday morning show that he does, and she turned the conversation around to politics. I am not a fan of his views, but I do admire DeSimone for the way he handled it - he avoided the discussion and switched her back to music.

Unless you book an artist and make them sign an agreement (or loyalty oath?)that says what they can or cannot say, you are open for anything. It is the promoters perogative to not invite the artist back again.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Eric
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:05 PM

I think what everyone is forgetting in this case is that a casino is a business. Any business hates to give money back. I know if half of my customers all of a sudden ran to my boss and demanded their money back for something I did, I'd be on the street looking for old Top Ramen containers in the dumpster.

Remember, casinoes can, and will, kick you out if your are having too much luck at the tables.

This was a case of Linda Ronstadt not knowing her audience. Even though I am conservative, I agree that she has every right to voice her opinion. She just has to be prepared to accept whatever consequences come her way.

For all you freedom of speech advocates, remember the Constitution states "Congress shall pass no law abridging freedom of the press..speech..religion..right to assemble..etc". Unless Congress now makes policy for the Aladdin Hotel and Casino, it is a business and businesses can still reserve the right to refuse service to anyone...like it or not.

Linda, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Conservative room love,
Eric

ps be gentle, i bruise easy.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:10 PM

Like I said, Ron

she can say what she wants, and I can boo her for it and tell her to shut up and sing "silver Threads and Golden Needles" if that's what my expectaions were when I bought the ticket.

While employed at the aladdin or any where else, she can be fired at will. It was their right. Find another venue I say. I've liked her music but I wouldn't pay to see her now. She mis-used the stage and the spotlight well to her advantage.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:15 PM

Ron: so your take on it is people were rushing to thier cars to beat the traffic. Hmmm, mebbe so, but I doubt the boxoffice would refund their money were that their excuse. Your charge that the "right-wing" press reported this is rather ludricrous don't you think? It appears the main-stream press is doing most of the reporting and if you think they are "right-wing," I got some land, etc. etc.

Bobert? You gonna pull up stakes and leave the good ole USofA? I don't believe it! However, might I suggest if you are so amind, Iraq could probably use somebody with your skills and attitude. Perhaps you could get a job teaching school children "progressivism."

DougR


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:26 PM

Martin, I said from the start that people have the right to boo. I'm amazed that anyone feels she "mis-used" the stage. Does Toby Keith "mis-use" the stage? Willie Nelson? Dennis Miller? Al Franken? Not at all, they do what they want to do. You don't have to show up, that is your business.

Doug, if you are trying to say that the main-stream press is really liberal, then I am sure that the property you have is probably swamp.   Also, I would be curious as to how many refunds the Aladdin actually gave. It doesn't make much business sense to give refunds when the show is over.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:32 PM

People expect political comedy from Al Franken and Dennis Miller. some of Toby Keith's music has been politically charged also. Expectations are not so out of line in these cases as they would be with ronstedt. As for willie Nelson, he's almost bigger than life so I don't think anyone cares.

Yeah, DougR, Bobert said he was ready to go. Perhaps he can be CarolC and Jack the Sailor's agent in Palestine.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:35 PM

Heck, Dougie. Why would I want to go some place that is even worse than the United States in its intolerance. I believe you might be more comfy there. Oh, I forgot, yer confident that the United Sates will become more like Iraq... Silly me... Hey, the wait might not be too long...

I was kind thinking somewhere like New Zealand since I don't think I could handle 6 months of no sun in Norway...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: freightdawg
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:39 PM

Hey Bobert,

Sorry to hear you're lookin' for better digs. But you might want to consider carefully where you pitch yer tent. I remember a couple of months ago reading a newspaper story about how someplace in Canada is trying to pass a national law making it illegal to use "hate language" in any place at any time. That's right...a preacher, standing in his pulpit, doing what his congregation is paying him to do, could get sent to the pokey for saying that just about any kind of sin is a sin, seeing as how there are so many of us sinners out there (the preacher was one example specifically mentioned). Don't know if its true or an urban legend, but if true that eliminates Canada. Oh, and France won't let little Muslim girls wear their headscarves to public schools. Scratch off France. I hear over in Britannia there is this nasty little skirmish between the Irish and the English...hmm. Palestinians kill Israelis and Israelis kill Palestinians just because of who they are. Running out of places to go...

Fact is, the fact that this is an issue shows how healthy our free speech is. Linda was free to opine, the paying public was free to boo. The casino was free to fire, and everyone is free to make a gazillion dollars making the rounds of all the morning shows and Oprah style afternoon shows. Freedom of speech and free enterprise...ya gotta love it.

(Love the mostly civil discussion here)

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:49 PM

F-dawg,

You know, Canada isn't on my A List but, hey, a Diebold thrft could get it a promotion... I'm kinda scared that it is turning a little to the right and I've seen that once that starts its almost impossible to get it back on course...

Like I said, I like what I hear about Norway and have some ctberfriends there but don't think I could take the winters...

Lets just say that I have an open mind as long as the folks is tolerant and intellegent...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:52 PM

Martin, yes there are artists that are known for sharing their views. Ronstadt is not Joan Baez, but she has been known to share her views - as many artists do.    Her work with the Democratic Party is well known.

I also just read that she apparently has been making the remark abotu Micheal Moore at each of her shows since the film opened. So why did it suddenly become an issue at the Aladdin?   Why haven't other audiences reacted this way? Why wasn't it reported?


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 05:08 PM

Canada isn't on my A List

surely you mean Canada isn't on my List, A? ;o)


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 05:26 PM

I went to see "Fahrenheit 9/11" on opening night with a few peace-activist friends. Afterwards we went out for drinks and to discuss the film. It got a big laugh when I said, "Gee, I'm really disappointed with Britney Spears. I'll never be able to look at her the same way again."

(For those who don't know, she says in the film, "I think we should just trust our president in every decision that he makes and we should just support that.")

The joke, of course, is that I am not at all surprised. She said exactly what I would expect a young airhead to say. And I probably will look at her the same way again. You won't see me ripping up my copy of Rolling Stone.

In other words, her political opinions have nothing to do with the things I like or dislike about her as a performer. Why should Linda Ronstadt's fans feel any differently?


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 05:34 PM

... especially when her "fans" are well aware of her political views.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 05:35 PM

I made somewhat the same mistake, perhaps thirty years ago. By comparing my performance with Linda's, I do NOT mean to imply that were are/were in the same league. I'm small potatoes, and prefer it that way.

The scene was a very high end "Country Club" in my town. I was the hired "folksinger" to entertain during dinner. This was shortly after the American "Bi-Centenial Year," and a lot of money had been spent in small towns across America on singers like me, presenting our historical folksongs. That year, the late (and great) John Dwyer and I had been performing a lot, doing typical NorthWest ballads, including many Wobbly and Labor songs.

As I was planning my program, I realized that I had a captive audience of the "enemy", if you will: the managers and bosses of the lumber mills and factories that were so strong in my town's early history. So I decided to educate them a little.

I planned a program of probably a half hour of typical Pacific NorthWest ballads as sung by our settlers. BUT ... every third song, I'd slide in a robust "anti-bosses" song, usually from the "Little Red Song Book." I'd have them singing along, full volume with "This Land Is Your Land," then I'd let them have "Pie In The Sky."

OH .. IT WAS SWELL!!!

They didn't know what to do, and I enjoyed myself thoroughly. And I also paid the price! It took me six weeks to get my $200 bucks, and I was never invitied back.

Did I feel a little guilty ..... NAW. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 06:49 PM

Although we can't know the details, it appears from what we have read that Linda and Alladin President Bill Timmins had some disagreements before the performance so both were probably pissed when Linda got on the stage. When that happens to us, we do not give the best performance we can. We are thinking more about how soon we can get out of the place and that we're never coming back.

So, Linda's remarks, or at least the audience reaction to them, were the final straw for Timmins and he over reacted. Linda apparently said little or nothing as she was being escorted out, preferring to act more like an adult.

While it is Timmin's right not to hire her again, our guess is that her contract included use of the "luxury suite" both before and after the concert so Timmin's may have violated the contract by tossing her. Whether or not she'll sue remains to be seen but Alladin does not have very deep pockets (they're actually in or near bankruptcy) and we think Linda is above that anyway.

She'll just write it off as a bad gig just like the rest of us do.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 07:49 PM

Ron Olesko said, in part:

I also just read that she apparently has been making the remark abotu Micheal Moore at each of her shows since the film opened. So why did it suddenly become an issue at the Aladdin?   Why haven't other audiences reacted this way? Why wasn't it reported?

If she's been saying those things (with which I agree, remember) regularly in previous appearances, then the Aladdin reasonably should have known the likelihood, and I would then withdraw at least the strength of my criticism in posts above. If (as several posters have mentioned) Aladdin knew (or should have known) this likelihood and didn't like the possibility, it was indeed up to them to prohibit it contractually.   

As to "firing" her, I believe I read that it was to be a single appearance in any case. Not letting her even go to her room before leaving the premises seems pretty harsh in any case.

I still question her judgment in making the statements in that context, but that's not too big a deal.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 10:15 PM

Bev and Jerry,

You made the exact point I wanted to for people like DougR and Martin. Those guys might have jobs where you can be fired at will for any reason, but Linda Ronstadt does not. She has a contract with a venue, and the venue cannot just suddenly decide they don't like her anymore and violate the contract.

This is especially true since the offending remarks occurred in the encore. The whole concert except one song was acceptable, but for that one song we will deprive you of contracted accomodations probably in excess of $1,000.00? Come on, they can't do that, just as if Marty's boss decides to fire him, he still has to pay him for the work he already did.

Here is another newspaper account. This is fuller and gives more details. Apparently, people did NOT ask for their money back because of this incident. Some had asked for their money back in advance, because Ronstadt had been quoted a couple of weeks ago that she didn't much like Vegas. Well, boo hoo! Maybe as a native New Yorker I have a thicker skin, but am I gonna walk out ojn a concert because my town isn't the performer's favorite? That's infantile! Then more asked for their money back early in the concert because the venue had mistakenly billed it as a "greatest hits" concert and she was not planning to do her greatest hits. It looks to me like Timmins was looking for a way to take a generally poor show by both Ronstadt AND the Aladdin and take it out on her vindictively.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

Based on that article, it sounds like the boos were not based solely on her comments. Sounds like the performance and the way the concert was sold probably added to the problem.   That might explain why the Aladdin was the only place that supposedly received boos for the Michael Moore comment.

It is interesting how the story changes as more information leaks out. Power of the press!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:32 PM

She said she didn't like Las Vegas??? (gasp!) Oh, my esteem for Linda just keeps going up and up. She clearly has good taste as well as good pipes.

Bobert, you should reconsider Canada. It's a very reasonable place. If I may speak for Canada, we would be most happy to have you, providing the old USA goes totally around the bend and you need a saner place to move to...it's happened before, believe me. A lot of good people have come here in order to escape totalitarianism of one sort or another.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 12:25 AM

An article about Ms. Ronstadt's subsequent concert in San Diego casts more light on the polical polarization that's affecting American entertainment.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: open mike
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 02:09 AM

the San Diego article ends with this comment:
"Those who complain that Ronstadt should just sing,
rather than express her opinions, forget that all
art has a responsibility to inspire and provoke,
not just soothe and entertain."


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 04:08 AM

Great thread! I can't think of a subject more apropos for discussion on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 07:57 AM

Good on you, Linda, and what a singer, I am listening to her brilliant CD of Mexican songs "Canciones de mi Padre",superb.
C`mon all of you catters in the States belt it out, and stuff the bastards in Vegas, free speech in the US!, now there`s a laugh.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Grab
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:48 AM

Write it off as a bad gig? This has probably got her more column-inches than she's had for twenty years!

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: el ted
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:13 AM

Go out and buy "The tuscon sessions" that she made with Emmylou Harris.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:23 AM

Wow!! Wish I'd been at that San Diego show. Good on her.

A


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:38 AM

These increasingly hostile (and infantile) reactions- across the board, not just to Ronstadt's relatively innocuous comment- are down to the fact the the NeoCons & their supporters are getting increasingly frantic and desperate as it daily becomes more apparent that the clothes absolutely have no emperor.

The moral and mental equivalent of a two-year-old's temper tantrum. Expect more of the same.

God Help America.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: el ted
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:48 AM

99


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: el ted
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:50 AM

100. I thank you! My work here is done.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:57 AM

One thing that people seem to be misinformed about is what Ronstadt actually said. All she did was to dedicate a song to Michael Moore, who she said "cares about this country deeply and is trying to help." She did not go into a long political rant. Granted, as some of us have asked, why should I care what she thinks of Moore? On the other hand, why should I object to such a dedication, no matter my politics? It all seems like another right-wing intimidation ploy to me. And, as Greg says, a temper tantrum.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,mtomlinson@unifacs.com
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:01 AM

to Bobbert and all the rest of you "Patriots" If you want to move out of this country, I can give you a whole list of places to go, however one is at the top of my list---------Hell!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Agentgirl
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:16 AM

Harpgirl you're not entirely correct, Artworks, you're right. Ms. Ronstadt did have an obligation, professionally and ethically regardless of what her contract did or did not say, to disclose to her employers any antics she planned to display other than the musical performance she was hired for, most especially if it is political. This was not a Central Park, open-street concert, but a performance in a five-star facility with a five-star audience. I am greatly in favor of free speech, but there is a time and place for everything. Dixie Chick, Natalie, said so herself when interviewed by Diane Sawyer, that the British audience was not at all hostile to their group during their concert performance, she just felt the need to speak out. Unfortunately, Ms. Ronstadt paid the price for her need to speak out, just as the Dixie Chicks did and are stilling having to pay even now.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:25 AM

From: GUEST,mtomlinson@unifacs.com

Did you think of that all by yourself, or did your mommy help you with the big words?


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 12:42 PM

I heard the Dixie Chicks interview on RTE [Irish Radio] and afterwards the many responses to the lady, all in support, what is going on in the US, have any men performers the courage of these two magnificent ladies?,.
Please get this imbecile out in November and THEN the world will be a safer place.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 05:24 PM

On another thread I recalled how the mere mention of "...have you seen Fahrenheit"...sets off the most violent reactions in people one had thought to be reasonable thinking individuals.

As to Linda R., I surely believe in her right to make the comments she made---as surely did the Dixie Chicks. One expects that most folk performers do this---recall the time Woody Guthrie was booked a a posh NY club---they, too, did not get the performer they figured on. Eliza Gilkyson comes to mind as a recent artist that I have had on my program and who I have seen perform---OK she was preaching to the choir there---but she surely made some stinging political comments.

But, it is not only the "folk" performers that make political comments. Think about Las Vegas and the likes of the Sinatras, Sammy Davises, etc; Just that they were coming from a different side and seemed to be more Vegas "types", if you will. Probably made the local yokels feel "in" and brought the managements many dollars--more than a Rondstadt probably.

I surely commend Linda R. but, like most things, I suppose you had to be there to find out what really happened, how the audience was sold on the performance, and what was in her contract. Yet, even if all the things mentioned in the previous sentence were against her the fact she stood up for her beliefs and just made a simple comment and not a harangue speaks to her courage and forthrightness.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,SteveGP
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 05:32 PM

It wasn't impromptu she did the same thing at Wolftrap in Virginia.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:48 PM

Bobert....Dont go to hell, come to Scotland.

We've a tradition of free thought and free speech and your too big a guy to have to suffer these numbskulls.

Back to Linda, I think she was correct to use her position to put forward her point. Most of us are so disenfranchised as to have no voice at all in these matters.

Just been listening to Iris Dement....Now theres a lady who really puts her opinions across,you can feel her burning with the same fire I remember as a young man.
Im afraid the fire ,in my case has become the dull glow of cynisism,
but I still admire people who can hold on to it.
I agree with Ard Macha the women seem braver than the men politically.
Carol C is a great example..Ake


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:23 PM

It's not brave to spout bullshit, Ake. It's just bullshit.

A great example of a total hardhead once sided, jaded arguement.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 01:39 AM

Looks like the Las Vegas spot has had multiple bands cancel gigs in protest of their treatment of Ronstadt. Looks like the media has been using the truth as a chew-toy again -- Rhonstadt says most of the extream facts are just plain wrong.

this link has an account purportedly to come from Ronstadt herself.


http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/072104ronsdadt.html


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 04:07 AM

Martin...It appears a lot of people on Mudcat dislike Carol, because she does not give an inch in her defense of the Palistinians.
I too believe that they have been abused,not just by the Israelis but by many vested interests,even a section of their own people.

But Carol is brave to stand up for her beliefs,as well as all the reseach she does, considering the amount of personal abuse she has to except.   I'm sure you'll agree that she never uses personal abuse as part of her platform.

Carols position is much like Lindas,when people think their entrenched
bigotries are under threat from common sense,they revert to abuse.
I know you dont give a shit for me or all the other arseholes on Mudcat,but surely if you put aside religious matters and view the subject from both sides,you must see that the major historical wrong has been done to the Palistinians....Ake


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Boston Man
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 07:40 AM

Linda,

Just SHUT UP AND SING!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 08:23 AM

And boy can she sing, get yourself "Canciones de mi Padre" and close your eyes, but don`t keep sitting on the cactus Martin.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: JJ
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 09:09 AM

Here is a letter which claims to be from someone who was there, although I have no way to verify this. The original may be found at:
www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/04_07_18_corner-archive.asp#036039

Mr. Goldberg --

My wife & I were at the Linda Ronstadt performance in question, at the Aladdin in Las Vegas, and quite frankly, Aladdin President Bill Timmins' account of what happened is complete crap. There was mixed booing and cheering at Ronstadt's pro-Michael Moore comment, and that was about the extent of the "bedlam" that supposedly broke out. I saw no posters being torn down or cocktails being thrown in the air, and if people stomped out of the theatre unhappy, it was because 1) that was the last song Ronstadt performed; it was her encore; and 2) she mainly sang her standards repertoire, with the Nelson Riddle orchestrations, and a large part of the crowd wanted to hear more of her rock-'n'-roll stuff; she got the biggest round of applause for doing a lackadaisical run-through of her version of "Blue Bayou."

Frankly, my suspicion is that Timmins is way overdramatizing what happened, in order to justify giving Ronstadt the boot. It simply wasn't that big a deal.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 12:06 PM

I think that the policy of the venue has a great deal to do with what is deemed acceptable. Las Vegas is a place that is probably mostly gangster controlled and they don't want to rock the boat. Bad for business.

The audience who booed her was probably given the green light by management.

I have seen concerts on TV that promote the Bush agenda and nobody says anything.

If I pay money to hear an artist, i wanat the whole person, not just an "acceptabble" part of that person. Their conviction gives their art some substance. I admire some country performers who have opposite points-of-view from what I believe and would still enjoy their performances. They have a right in this country (hopefully which will endure) to speak their mind.

Linda only promoted the movie. She didn't spend much time on that.


Moore is a lightning rod. Why should he be? It's not as if she was promoting Joe Stalin or Adolf Hitler. Moore is a filmaker.

Mel Gibson is a filmaker too. Do you think that the "Passion" hasn't been promoted by some so-called Christian performers?

There have been plenty of artists to promote many of the list of "patriots" that artbrooks has suggested. Robert E. Lee might be another lightning rod but plenty of traditional folk performers from the South would find his promotion acceptable in a concert.

The whole issue is a red herring for one reason alone. Those that agree with Linda have no problem with her. Those that disagree do.
It's all about where you're coming from. If she supported the Bush agenda in Iraq, I doubt whether there would have been any protest whatever. I don't see Progressive people defacing posters, yelling for their money back, or fighting with others.

I don't have any problem with artists who I like speaking their mind one way or another. It's an American thing to do.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 02:22 PM

Frank,You could have fooled me, it is very much a European thing to do.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 08:24 PM

Ironically, I heard on the radio today that the Aladdin Resort has new owners or something who say that Linda Ronstadt is more than welcome to play there any time. What a scary place America is becoming when those who profess to be true Americans and patriots are the very ones who want to deny freedom of speech because it doesn't agree with THEM. I have a feeling we'll all be in the underground soon.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 09:10 PM

The beatiful thing is that Linda has the right to voice her opinion but so does the audience. The problem is when the audience makes their opinion known by booing or walking out of the performance you liberals always blame the president like there is some sort of conspiracy. I do no think the administration had representaives at the concert. Lesson learned is you do have the right to voice your opinion but it may have consequences. I also have the the right to voice my opinion and not by your music or attend your events. Seems like your liberals only want it one way.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 09:51 PM

I think its a tempest in a teapot, that Ronstadt used to promote her failing career. Why it is failing I don't know, because she has a great voice.

Politically speaking, as an artist, I find her to be disingenuous. Her artistic integrity didn't extend to her insistence on playing Sun City gigs back in the South African boycott days, when she was much more popular than she is now. And that was AFTER the boycott organizers pleaded with her not to perform.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 09:54 PM

Guest, wake up. Who blamed the President in this case? I don't think anyone suggested that "liberals" took offense to the audience showing their disapproval. The issue is whether the Aladdin was correct in their actions.   You conservatives really have a unique way of interpreting the news, the Consitution and the Bill of Rights.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 10:37 PM

Martin Gibson wrote:

"This same controversy has been going on a long time with Peter, Paul, and Mary. In between songs, long political rants which are not represented on the records they sell to the public."

If that's what you think, then I don't think you've been listening to Peter, Paul & Mary records over the past 42 years. In 1962, their first album included political songs including several anti-war songs like "Cruel War" and "Where Have All the Flowers Gone," and "If I Had A Hammer," a song that celebrates civil rights, equality and justice.

Most of the albums that Peter, Paul & Mary have done since have included political songs. Their new album, "In These Times," includes "Have You Been To Jail For Justice," whose title is self-explanatory, "Jesus Is On the Wire," about the anti-gay hate crime murder of Matthew Sheppard, "Invisible People," about the injustice reigned upon Native Americans as Europeans conquered America, a medley of classic labor songs, etc.

Peter, Noel and Mary have always been politically active with their music. They sang at the March On Washington in 1963 just before Dr. King made his "I Have A Dream" speech, they were there in the Vietnam peace movement, the enviornmental movement, etc. When the Reagan administration was destroying democracy in Latin America, they were there standing up to the administration.

To suggest that their music has ever been apolitical is to show that you've just not paid any attention.

BTW, this is not the first instance of Linda Ronstadt getting involved either. She was very active, for example in the No Nukes movement.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 11:05 PM

We heard on the local news that Linda Ronstadt dedicated the song "Straighten Up And Fly Right" to Enron in her lastest concert. Go Linda!

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 11:24 PM

Well, I was down in Elkins, WV last night crashing Blues Week and was talking wid my pal, Sparky Rucker, and asked him if he'd been behaving while he was there.

"Heck no, I performed last night in the auditorium and told 'um all to get their act together this election 'er I was gonna have to come back to West Virginia and kick some ass..."

That's my man... Like he says, "If yer gonna get the song, yer gonna get the sermon..."

Good on you, Sparky...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 11:55 PM

This story gets better and better. According to the Wall St. Journal today, Michael Moore, in addition to demanding Aladdin rehire Linda, has offered to join her onstage to sing "America the Beautiful", "after which he would screen his film at no charge for anyone in Las Vegas who wanted to see it". There now, doesn't that make it all better, "Martin Gibson" , Larry K et. al.?   See that?-- no filthy capitalist he, Michael volunteers to show his film for free to a whole city. Now what else could you possibly want? Right?   LOL


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 12:19 AM

nameless GUEST # 1 said: The beatiful thing is that Linda has the right to voice her opinion but so does the audience.

Yes, but it seems from all the accounts I've read that there were equal boos and cheers, and that then a few people in the audience threw drinks and tore down posters (which some accounts deny entirely). So my point is, "the audience" was split equally, and few of the ones who disagreed cared enough for it to spoil the concert for them. Then, a small minority of audience members tried to bully the casino into taking some action by vandalizing the place. I have no problem with the booing, but the casino claims it was objecting to the vandalism, and blaming it on Ronstadt herself.

I don't think it's a conspiracy directed from the white house. But I DO think it's a pattern we've seen a lot of lately, including in Florida in the 2000 elections when mobs of out of staters posed as Floridians and "protested" by intimidating vote counters. It's thuggery, and in this case it happens to be right-wing thuggery.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,mike p
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 04:11 PM

What a stupid ----- linda is. Does she not know that she just pissed off fifty percent of the american audience..
                                                    former fan


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 04:19 PM

GUest:

You are sadly mistaken.

She said what she had to say, and if half her audience is that blind-bat knee-jerk unthinking and reactive, she'd probably not miss them.


A


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:27 PM

'm amazed this is happening. I mean, I'm amazed that anyone is batting an eye over this. It's commonplace for musicians, especially folk musicians, to be very upfront about their politics, and they are typically liberal if not downright radical. Anyone out there ever heard of Pete Seeger? Peter, Paul & Mary? Paul Robeson? Utah Phillips? The Almanac Singers? The Weavers? Woody Guthrie? Arlo Guthrie? Bob Dylan? Phil Ochs? Joan Baez? I'm sure all these people (if they were all still alive) would approve of what Linda Ronstadt did enthusiastically. I'm amazed that anyone who frequents a website devoted to folk music wouldn't know this and expect this.

I'm trying to imagine how I'd react if any of these people surprised me by saying something I strongly disagreed with. Suppose one of them said he favored the death penalty, for example, or thought the Patriot Act was a good thing. I'd be shocked, but first of all, I'd LISTEN. I'd want to understand. If they recommended a movie that explained their point of view, I'd want to go see it. But regardless, I'd at least continue to enjoy their music. No way would you catch me defacing a poster, or demanding my money back for no good reason.

Furthermore, I don't believe any substantial number of Ronstadt's audience did that, either. Believe it or not, even most Republicans are decent people. It only takes one asshole to deface a poster, and for all we know, maybe only one asshole did. As far as people walking out, they were probably only trying to beat the rush, since it was during the encore anyway. I think the Aladdin management lied and exaggerated the whole thing. They probably want to blame her for their own incompetence. This is really reprehensible.

I guess I don't need to tell you what I think of the anonymous guests who not only take it for granted that the management's story is true, but even try to justify what the audience supposedly did.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: mg
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:45 PM

just read the comment about art supposing to provoke...maybe..I have very lowbrow taste in art, and most people wouldn't call what I like art. Anyway, maybe so. But entertainment does not have to provoke. Our lives are hard and probably about to get harder and there is a great need for simple R&R....sometimes we don't need to be shocked or annoyed and pay for it besides. If I very infrequently go to hear a show of some sort, I would want to be informed as to the likelihood of being subjected to diatribes (not comments now and then) so I could make an informed decision. mg


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 01:06 AM

"Former fan" Mike P.---you really don't think very clearly, do you?

This is probably the most and best publicity Linda has had in over 10 years (how about 20?) From a 70's oldies-night denizen (when did you last see her, by the way?), she has at a stroke become the darling of half the country, who now would probably love to see her, hoping for some political red meat as a bonus.

She was out of place in a Vegas hotel, although she actually would have been better received if she had done her 70's rock, not her Nelson Riddle (see earlier posting---people were at least if not more disappointed in that as in her pro-Michael Moore introduction to her encore.) Now she can go back to playing venues for people who are both musically and politically aware. She has basically stated she has nothing in common with reactionaries, so no sweat if they don't show up. If they do, there may be fireworks--a riot at a Linda Ronstadt concert?--definitely stretches the imagination. At any rate, it's certainly obvious to whom she can dedicate her next performance of "You're No Good".

You're certainly welcome to stay at home and burn your copy of "Heart Like A Wheel" in your back yard (which will be no sacrifice for you anyway since your turntable doesn't work). I'm sure Linda will understand--in fact she'll probably be honored to be treated the same way as John Lennon (1966) and Elvis earlier. Actually she would be against the pollution burning the record would cause, as would lots of us.

That reminds me--I've been meaning to pick up one of her CD's--which one would you recommend? LOL

Get used to it, it's election year homestretch, and a singer with any kind of folk bent is likely to have strong opinions, and as a thinking person is unlikely to support Bush. By the way, I'm a registered Republican--to my mind Bush is so far off the scale he's left the party.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 08:08 AM

"Intimate venue" - 1300 people? !!!!!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,robin
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 10:11 AM

i support linda in her comments,this country needs to wake up.you can not trust bush.we are all targets for another terrorist attack.have we really taken precautions?are the borders secure?do we have a plan if we are attacked?are the first responders equipped with chemical suites,mask etc?duct tape and a few bottles of water will not cut it folks.this war has created more hate toward america which equals more terrorist.bush did not have to attack iraq,where is bin laden?he murdered our people,he needs to be caught.if bush was been really serious about going after those responsible for 911,sadam would not have been the target,oil was the focus.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 10:14 AM

Ron Davies[*], it's funny you should say that about Republicans & Bush. I'm the product of a mixed marriage: Dad was Democrat, Mom was Republican. I can remember them discussing politics and events in the news, and pretty much aggreeing on most things. I think this decade (perhaps longer, but I hope not) will go down as the 'age of unreason', when any slight difference of opinion is exaggerated and any issue becomes a wedge to drive people further apart.

This Linda Ronstadt thing...
How many of us who are atheist lefty types have sat there and listened to certain old-time, bluegrass, or country music legends make the odd comment that offended us, without walking out or raising hell? We could talk about it later, we could accept the person was a great musician and realise we were there for the music. We could enjoy a performance without necessarily accepting the whole package. It was more important to look for things we enjoyed and respected than look for things we despised.

Now, it seems like our culture, in the US, at least, is about finding things that piss us off, SAYIN things that piss others off, belittling our 'opposition', and driving the wedge in deeper. Finding common ground is something people did back when they thought tolerance was important and rebels were the ones who thought for themselves and didn't just jump on the big rebel bandwagon with the sign that says "If you think like us, you can be a rebel too!"

I think we had a chance after 9/11. I think people came closer together in grief, and yes, even anger. I think the wars and the defense of that policy have done nothing but polarise us and drive us further apart, and I can't see anybody arguing with that. What you might argue with is that I also believe that unity may have been a threat to some. Better for them that we squabble like little kids, throw tantrums in casinos because of something somebody says, and prove they can't leave us alone without adult supervision and a lot more house rules that we used to have.

[*] My recommendation would be Living in the USA. Some gems and some standards.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:03 PM

Saw Linda at Ravinia last year - still hitting the high ones with awesome power. No politics that night!

The only personal note was to say that she altered her set-list to take advantage of the world-class musicians afforded her, which displeased no one.

She had the well-known jazz standards singer Steve Tyrell to open for her.

A gutsy and rarely seen thing to do since she could almost open for him. Most A-list performers would have used an unknown or a comic.

Does anyone recall an appearance on Leno wherein the outspoken lass blasted H. Stern while sharing the greenroom and "couch" with one of Howie's cohorts? I watched and said, "go you girl" then.

I'm glad Mr. Timmins didn't catch it or I would have missed my chance to encore my "go, you 58-year-old, ten-Grammy-winner girl!"

I'm closer politically to those conservatives she despises than to Mr. Moore, yet I'm not nervous that discovery will get me ejected if I ever get to hear her sing again.

Meanwhile ...

I only wish Mr. Moore would remind those who appreciate him that those who voted to authorize the use of force had access to the exactly the same intelligence GW had. If GW was duped by the pentagon and CIA, as Kennedy was prior to that pig-fiasco, his co-dupees in congress have successfully and shamefully covered their butts while he takes the brunt of Mr. Moore's passion.

Kennedy took responsibility for abandoning troops he commanded while they were under fire on the field of battle (a capital offense). No, no ... don't tell me how far removed he was politically or militarily from them ... they were US trained, US sponsored and US transported to the scene ... ultimately by the commander-in-chief.

Still had he lived he would have crushed Goldwater just as surely as Johnson did.

People need to appreciate that we don't have executive branch intelligence and congressional intelligence, or Democratic Party intelligence. Congress funds the CIA, and its intelligence committees have access to the same classified materials as the White House (a basic fact that gets very little ink these days).

Remember I'm not talking about GW actions, I'm interested in dozens of DC denizens who collectively gave him the go-ahead. They did not need GW to hand them the intelligence. As easily as they discredited him later, they could have discredited him, then.

Did Mr. Moore mention that the intelligence Powell presented to the UN specified that the UN weapons inspectors were being duped by the fact that the WMD they sought had been mobilized. If they were mobile so as to not be wherever the inspectors looked (the basis of Powell's UN appeal), why would anyone be surprised if they were mobilized out of the country by the time shock and awe subsided.

The fact is dozens were duped. By a very long list of dupers.

So lets throw GW out bag and baggage. He lacked the skills JFK used to recover from Pentagon/CIA fever. But let's not kid ourselves that the GW represents the problem.

Mr. Moore should be planning a sequel. All successful Hollywood efforts deserve a sequel. In it he should seek out those who could have prevented GW from using the force he was authorized to use.

Conservatives/Republicans make up a third of the American populace. Even Reagan needed "Reagan Democrats" to beat Mondale. There are less conserv/repubs today than then.

By all arithmetic logic and the morning headlines GW should concede the election now.

Liberals have all the media except O'Reilly (good grief!) and that radio bozo (you know, the football expert?), yet have no majority role in the running of any branch of the federal government. To the point where it seems all they can do is stand on the sidelines of American political life and BOO!

Yet even with Mr. Moore's film Kerry has not yet "locked" the vote.

Does anyone find that amazing?

Folks who venture to glamorous places like Linda, go to places the evildoers would like to mess with. They have a right to be concerned. They cannot be expected not to express themselves.

Being stalked by Al Qaida is no different than being stalked by nutsy fans. From Linda's point of view, security is security and she thinks a GWectomy might help. And it might. Can you blame her?


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,another GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 08:16 PM

GUEST, you numbnuts, an incumbent President is almost NEVER doing as badly as Bush is doing now, before even the Democratic convention. Moore's movie is a documentary, for God's sake. The fact that ANYONE has seen it is surprising, so to expect it to have any effect on an election is optimistic. An to expect Kerry to have "locked" the vote is ridiculous.

Yeah, the lefties have all the media, except for Bill O'Reilly and Scarborough, and Olbermann, and Wolf Blitzer, and Chris Matthews, and practically all radio, and most of CNN, MSNBC, and CNBC, not to mention all the rest of Fox, plus many newspapers thanks to Murdoch, plus network folks like John Stossel, etc., etc.

Finally, your claim is that all of Congress had access to all the intelligence Bush did? Nope. In large part, they were duped by HIM. Not only on intelligence issues, but on how he would use the authority they gave him. So sure, blame congress for getting duped. But don't pretend the administration was as innocent a victim as they were. The administration WANTED to go to war, WMD or no (note how they are STILL telling the war was justified, WMD or no) so they were not "duped." They were helped by the bad intelligence, and their agenda was advanced. They would not have gotten a majority in congress without joining the ranks of the dupers.

I agree we need to get rid of him, though!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 09:59 PM

Much of the coverage on this affair seems a bit less than illuminating. For example THIS sterling bit of journalism.

Can someone explain to me how Linda Ronstadt's not liking George W. Bush and his policies makes her a bigot!???

From the article:   ". . . any right-thinking person. . . ." [Emphasis mine.]   Yeah, I guess you could say that.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 12:14 AM

Sorry, for once i have nto read the whole thread, but I came across this op/ed piece and thought it worth posting the link. The writer actually knows something about folk protest music...even mentions Steve Earle and Tom Waits!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:48 AM

From the article posted by Don Firth:

"It's a real conflict for me when I go to a concert and find out somebody in the audience is a Republican or fundamental Christian. It can cloud my enjoyment."

So sez Linda.

THIS is how she can be a bigot, big guy. Or did you not bother to read the article?


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 04:01 AM

Funny, I pull a dick when I see chicks, too...


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 12:59 PM

OK, courageous GUEST:

If Linda goes to a concert (is she attending or singing?)...

If she's attending, she has 3 choices: stay and say something, stay and say nothing or leave. I suspect she does not toss her can of Diet Pepsi at either the offending individual or the stage.    If she's singing the concert, she has no choice--she stays.

By the way, how did she find out the person is a Republican or a fundamentalist Christian?
Is the person yelling at her that she has no right to sing "Will There Be Any Freight Trains In Heaven?" since she's not "born again"?   I'd say she has a right to feel uncomfortable.

Pretty clearly wretched sensationalist journalism, as Don says. But that won't stop giant intellects like yours from reading the worst possible interpretation into it


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 01:33 PM

Kat....Thanks ,I loved that link.

Thats what we need ,a bit of fucking fury.
Blair Bush and company are stomping all over us and all we can do is wait for Kerry or Howard to save us....Ha Ha Ha.

We really have become the apathetic generation.   Where are the voices of our conciences....Gone to graveyards every one???   

Even on Mudcat all we've got is a bunch of fucking number crunchers like Teribus....Fuck the "facts", lets have a bit of emotion...Ake


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 01:52 PM

Ake--

The only way to defeat factual arguments is to counter with facts, not emotion.

But, take heart. Most of the Bushites are not like Teribus, a worthy debate opponent, but more along the lines of deep thinkers like "Martin Gibson". The vast majority of the semiliterate ranters are on that side.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:11 PM

OK Ron,   But Im of the opinion that facts dont exist,and the word itself is only used as a means of manipulation,like "Democracy","Accountability" "Freedom""Fulfillment",   Need I go on?
The only truth is that ache in your heart when you just know something is wrong ,...Like the war in Iraq..
You dont have to be a rocket scientist to know they are lying through their teeth,and their lies have made us all complicit in the deaths and mutilation of hundreds,or thousands of innocent men women and children.
All the arseholes on this forum who complain about all the politics and Iraqi threads ,should listen to Dougie McLeans beautiful song "What have they done".Although it was not written for the Iraq war, it applies perfectly,and you know Dougie means every word.
We need a bit more fury, Weve become a nation of wimps....Ake


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:22 PM

And another thing...I dont think Teribus is a semi -literate ranter.

On the contrary, I think his use of so called "facts"is a tactic which he and his ilk use to cover the truth.

People must learn to think for themselves and dont allow their masters to spoonfeed them crap disguised as truth.

Teribus is the guy in charge of the spoon !!

Remember Gleneagles Hotel 2005...   Ake


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:25 PM

Ake--

Fury is great, Ake.

But more important is that every one of the furious realize how important it is to "plant a Bush back in Texas" in November--and it ain't by voting for Nader.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 06:08 PM

You're welcome, Ake. I like to see some passion, too.:-)

I was appalled to see one poll say Bush was slightly ahead of Kerry. I cannot fathom a nation that would actually put the shrub back in the White House when he clearly needs to be put out to pasture...preferably one with padded, sound-proofed walls .


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 09:48 AM

I haven't read all of this post; but, here's my read on this. The audience payed for her artistic skills, not her political opinions.
    Wilco 48,in Tennessee


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,read the damn thread!
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 11:47 AM

GUEST:

"I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, and can't be bothered to learn, but I'll tell you my worthless uninformed opinion, anyway."

Thanks for sharing, dickhead.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:00 PM

Ron Davies said:


The only way to defeat factual arguments is to counter with facts, not emotion.


Correction: The only intellectually responsible way to defeat factual arguments is to counter with facts, not emotion. But emotional appeals do, more's the pity, often prevail over the facts. And those who would do that don't care about the facts anyway.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 07:30 PM

Dave...I remember George Bush and Colin Powell going to the UN with a huge bundle of "facts",why they even had pictures of "facts" and Colin told us all what the pictures showed....They showed WMDs,a bloody great arsenal of them.

The "facts" and pictures were so clear that Colin George and Tony convinced us all that we should go to war and blow the arms , legs ,and eyes from the children that I watched on TV one week ago.

The thinking people of the world, although not in possesion of Colin George and Tonys bundle of facts ,instinctively knew that the whole enterprise had a very bad smell. They marched in their millions, but ,of course facts are always right...

Tell it to the children....Ake


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 11:43 PM

Didn't convince me, Ake. I thought I was in another dimension when the news shows all said Powell gave a masterful and convincing perfomance. To me, it looked like he showed grainy pictures of trailer houses that no one could make out, told us what Bush wanted us to think they were, and then showed a very detailed cartoon drawing of Bush's preferred interpretation.

Guess what? Turns out all he had were some grainy pictures of trailer houses after all! Joke's on us!


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 11:20 AM

Guest/Another Guest:

You said:

Yeah, the lefties have all the media, except for Bill O'Reilly and Scarborough, and Olbermann, and Wolf Blitzer, and Chris Matthews, and practically all radio, and most of CNN, MSNBC, and CNBC, not to mention all the rest of Fox, plus many newspapers thanks to Murdoch, plus network folks like John Stossel, etc., etc.

Wolf Blitzer and Chris Matthews are conservatives?   Are you nuts?   They both label themselves as liberals.   Matthews brags about it.

CNN, MSNBC, and CNBC are mostly conservative stations?   Only when you compare them to Al Jazera.

Newspapers- you mean like the NY TIme, and the LA Times:

Please- in polls the media defines itself as 88% liberal as compared to the general population where about 20% call themselves liberal.

You lose all your credibility when you make statements like that.   Even fox news has Alan Combes, Geraldo Rivera, Greta Von Susnow, Geraldine Ferraro, and most recently Paul Begalla.    I don't think anybody (but mudcat readers) would deny that they are liberal.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,Tom Hamilton
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 07:04 AM

I'm glad that more Americans are speaking their minds and to hell with the right wing bastards that try and tell the freedom of speech crowd to shut up.

Good on you Linda


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: GUEST,MarthaRae
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 08:38 AM

In Mudcat it seems to be the Left wingers that would like to silence any dissent


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 05:41 PM

In defense of "another GUEST," LarryK, Chris Matthews is not a self-proclaimed Liberal. Although he has worked for liberal causes and politicians, he came to prominence in the media as a high-profile Clinton-Basher. Like Christopher Hitchens, he used to be liberal and now is something else: liberal on some social issues, hard right on some political issues. He most resembles moderate republicans like my own Senator, Arlen Specter.

Matthews's show Hardball was created by Roger Ailes (founder of Fox News) for CNBC. It later moved to MSNBC and Ailes founded Fox News, where he picked another guy to fill the role Matthews had filled in his old lineup. So he needed a fast-talking, loud Irish-Catholic to bash Clinton. Who did he find? Bill O'Reilly.

Here is how Salon (which is liberal) describes Matthews:

Chris Matthews barreled into American living rooms during the Clinton impeachment saga, when his CNBC show "Hardball" became the official cable clubhouse for Clinton haters -- and must-viewing for Clinton defenders with a masochistic streak. Nobody who watched Matthews' shouting, spittle-spewing performance art night after night could question his sincerity: Here was a one-time Peace Corps volunteer from a blue-collar family -- and a lifelong Democrat who had worked for House Speaker Tip O'Neill -- and he clearly loathed Clinton for bringing shame to his office and his party. But it was also true that Matthews saw the rightward drift in cable's audience, and he knew there were ratings in his rants against a liberal president.

And then there's what Matthews said himself on the issue:

This demographic doesn't want to see the young, the hip -- they don't want celebrities. I had Mia Farrow and Brian Dennehy on recently -- it did terrible! I love Brian Dennehy, but the audience doesn't. They're angrier than I am. I'm not angry.

Oh, you still seem angry sometimes. But how much do you think about this stuff when you're programming?

A lot. I tell my staff, we're riding a tour bus around, and we're going to stop and look at some weird stuff -- but we're taking our viewers around safely. They're just looking out the window at it. I'm trying to create a sense of comfort for my center audience. My audience is much more center right...


So there you have it, whatever his personal political beliefs he is trying to create a safe feeling for a center-right audience. His show, in other words, is conservative.


As for Wolf Blitzer, he may be liberal; I don't know. But he defiantly refused to take any responsibility for letting the current administration get away with half-truths and alarmist propaganda. On The Daily Show, he shrugged it off with "haven't you ever made a mistake?"

So liberal or not, he doesn't let his personal politics interfere with repeating Republican Party talking points.

CNBC, MSNBC and CNN are pretty conservative, in fact. Headline News moreso than the regular CNN, oddly enough. Watch it for a while and see how often they show a liberal politician for a soundbite, then cut to a co-anchor who says "Wow, I guess there's some crazy ideas in Washington, ha, ha!" Then they'll show the president and say "President Bush, appearing self-assured." It's pretty infuriating.

Finally, another Guest said "many newspapers," not "all newspapers," so your ability to find counter-examples is irrelevant. He could say "Washington Times, New York Post, Times, News of the World,etc). In fact, according to their own website, Rupert Murdoch's company is:

"the world's leading publisher of English-language newspapers, with operations in the UK, Australia, Fiji, Papua New Guinea and the US. The Company publishes more than 175 different newspapers, employing approximately 15,000 people worldwide and printing more than 40 million papers a week."

And that's just one conservative organization.

It's time for conservatives to stop whining about the liberal media.


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Subject: RE: Linda Ronstadt pulls a Dixie Chicks
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:35 AM

Hey, here's more evidence of Wolf Blitzer's conservatism (from Salon)

One other note about CNN's at-times head-scratching coverage last night. Following Edwards' acceptance speech, Blitzer, in what may have been a convention first, immediately turned to partisan representatives from the opposing party for a reaction; Bush campaign advisor Ralph Reed and former Bush Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke. We'll be watching closely during the Republican gathering in New York City to see if following Vice President Dick Cheney's speech, CNN immediately seeks out Kerry advisor Mark Mellman and former Clinton spokesman Joe Lockhart for their analysis.


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