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BS: Federal election (Canada)

GUEST,James 14 Jun 04 - 08:52 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 04 - 10:38 AM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 14 Jun 04 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,James 14 Jun 04 - 12:19 PM
ToulouseCruise 14 Jun 04 - 12:45 PM
Clinton Hammond 14 Jun 04 - 02:38 PM
Justa Picker 14 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM
Little Hawk 14 Jun 04 - 04:21 PM
Peace 14 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM
Bardford 14 Jun 04 - 05:19 PM
dianavan 14 Jun 04 - 09:09 PM
Peace 14 Jun 04 - 09:13 PM
GUEST,Stew 14 Jun 04 - 11:25 PM
Little Hawk 14 Jun 04 - 11:47 PM
Metchosin 15 Jun 04 - 12:54 AM
GUEST 15 Jun 04 - 07:50 AM
Metchosin 15 Jun 04 - 09:44 PM
Peace 15 Jun 04 - 09:56 PM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 16 Jun 04 - 09:32 AM
Peace 16 Jun 04 - 09:42 AM
GUEST 16 Jun 04 - 10:28 AM
Bardford 16 Jun 04 - 11:23 AM
Metchosin 16 Jun 04 - 12:44 PM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 16 Jun 04 - 01:07 PM
Metchosin 16 Jun 04 - 01:42 PM
TS 16 Jun 04 - 02:13 PM
Peace 16 Jun 04 - 06:47 PM
dianavan 16 Jun 04 - 08:53 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jun 04 - 09:50 PM
Peace 16 Jun 04 - 10:09 PM
Metchosin 16 Jun 04 - 11:39 PM
Peace 17 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM
TS 17 Jun 04 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 17 Jun 04 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 17 Jun 04 - 02:47 PM
TS 17 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM
Metchosin 17 Jun 04 - 03:29 PM
TS 17 Jun 04 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 17 Jun 04 - 07:07 PM
Metchosin 17 Jun 04 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,MarkS 17 Jun 04 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,MarkS 17 Jun 04 - 09:17 PM
Raptor 18 Jun 04 - 12:03 AM
Metchosin 18 Jun 04 - 12:52 AM
Peace 18 Jun 04 - 03:43 PM
TS 18 Jun 04 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Obie 18 Jun 04 - 04:52 PM
Peace 18 Jun 04 - 05:16 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 04 - 01:56 AM
Metchosin 19 Jun 04 - 04:01 AM
TS 20 Jun 04 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,James 21 Jun 04 - 12:44 PM
gnu 21 Jun 04 - 01:50 PM
Justa Picker 21 Jun 04 - 07:16 PM
Peace 21 Jun 04 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,petr 21 Jun 04 - 09:01 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jun 04 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 21 Jun 04 - 11:38 PM
GUEST 22 Jun 04 - 09:29 AM
DougR 22 Jun 04 - 01:02 PM
DougR 22 Jun 04 - 01:03 PM
Peace 22 Jun 04 - 01:06 PM
Little Hawk 22 Jun 04 - 01:33 PM
TS 22 Jun 04 - 01:35 PM
GUEST 22 Jun 04 - 02:03 PM
Little Hawk 22 Jun 04 - 02:05 PM
Metchosin 22 Jun 04 - 02:07 PM
Metchosin 22 Jun 04 - 02:08 PM
Little Hawk 22 Jun 04 - 02:21 PM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 22 Jun 04 - 02:27 PM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 22 Jun 04 - 02:30 PM
TS 22 Jun 04 - 02:57 PM
Peace 22 Jun 04 - 03:59 PM
Justa Picker 22 Jun 04 - 04:02 PM
TS 22 Jun 04 - 04:03 PM
Peace 22 Jun 04 - 04:34 PM
Metchosin 22 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 22 Jun 04 - 04:53 PM
Megan L 22 Jun 04 - 05:10 PM
Megan L 22 Jun 04 - 05:12 PM
Little Hawk 22 Jun 04 - 05:14 PM
Justa Picker 22 Jun 04 - 05:43 PM
Justa Picker 22 Jun 04 - 07:07 PM
Peace 22 Jun 04 - 07:14 PM
Metchosin 22 Jun 04 - 10:53 PM
Metchosin 22 Jun 04 - 11:09 PM
GUEST 22 Jun 04 - 11:24 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 23 Jun 04 - 12:29 AM
Metchosin 23 Jun 04 - 12:39 AM
GUEST 23 Jun 04 - 07:54 AM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 04 - 08:03 AM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 04 - 08:17 AM
Peace 23 Jun 04 - 09:45 AM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 23 Jun 04 - 09:53 AM
Raptor 23 Jun 04 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 23 Jun 04 - 10:55 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jun 04 - 09:08 AM
el ted 24 Jun 04 - 09:46 AM
Metchosin 24 Jun 04 - 04:42 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jun 04 - 04:43 PM
Metchosin 24 Jun 04 - 04:56 PM
Metchosin 24 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jun 04 - 06:45 PM
black walnut 25 Jun 04 - 09:13 AM
GUEST 28 Jun 04 - 07:43 AM
Raptor 28 Jun 04 - 09:14 AM
GUEST 28 Jun 04 - 10:56 AM
black walnut 28 Jun 04 - 11:17 AM
Little Hawk 28 Jun 04 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,James 28 Jun 04 - 12:23 PM
black walnut 28 Jun 04 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 29 Jun 04 - 12:58 AM
Metchosin 29 Jun 04 - 01:57 AM
black walnut 29 Jun 04 - 08:34 AM
Willie-O 29 Jun 04 - 10:46 AM
Metchosin 29 Jun 04 - 12:29 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM
ToulouseCruise 29 Jun 04 - 12:54 PM
Metchosin 29 Jun 04 - 01:27 PM
Metchosin 29 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 04 - 03:31 PM
GUEST 29 Jun 04 - 03:35 PM
Metchosin 29 Jun 04 - 04:12 PM
Metchosin 29 Jun 04 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,petr 29 Jun 04 - 04:51 PM
Justa Picker 29 Jun 04 - 04:52 PM
GUEST 29 Jun 04 - 05:09 PM
Metchosin 29 Jun 04 - 06:02 PM
GUEST 29 Jun 04 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 29 Jun 04 - 10:15 PM
Metchosin 29 Jun 04 - 11:35 PM
Cluin 30 Jun 04 - 02:03 PM
TS 01 Jul 04 - 02:50 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jul 04 - 03:10 PM
GUEST 01 Jul 04 - 07:23 PM
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Subject: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,James
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 08:52 AM

So, are we on the verge of some major change in this country or will it be the grits again ? How do people think this election will turn out ? Seems to me that it will determine the future of the country for a long time to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:38 AM

Unfortunately, I believe the reform party will win..scary eh ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:56 AM

Seems to me that it will determine the future of the country for a long time to come.

Probably not. The way it looks now is that the Regressive Conservatives are poised to take power with a minority government. The problem for them is that they have no basis for ideological support from any of the other parties who will be in the parliament. The Liberals, will be wanting to retake their place as the natural governing party. The NDP is the ideological opposite of everything the Tories stand for and the only common front they share with the Bloc Québecois is on the supremacy of provincial jurisdiction.

The Liberals do not like being in opposition. Martin will probably resign, or face the kind of insurrection he laid on Chrétien. They'll regroup under new leadership just in time for the inevitable 2005 election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,James
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 12:19 PM

Do you really think Harper can win..seems impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 12:45 PM

Backstage... Keep an eye out for Frank McKenna to take over the reins if the Liberals lose...

I have personally never been so frustrated with the leadership of the parties as I am in this election.. Right now I am taking the Joe Clark stance of "better the devil we know"...

Brian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 02:38 PM

"I sat and watched those guys
Debate each other on TV
Politicians, wrestlers
They're all the same to me
Hey I don't give a damn
Which idiot runs this country
Cause I'm the last man on earth
And it don't matter to me"

-L.W.III-


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM

Harper and the re-packaged Reform party won't win.
It's an "anything but them" situation.

I think the Liberals will win, but with a minority govt.
The patronage scandal is Chretien's doing not Martin.
He just wanted to sabotage Martin's campaign since there's no love lost there.

NONE OF THEM DESERVE TO BE ELECTED HOWEVER.
Bastards all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 04:21 PM

Another exercise in political futility. A party that gets no more than maybe 39 or 40% of the vote (meaning maybe 23% of the demoralized and cynical voting public) will form either a minority government (in which case they'll strike a deal with one of the other parties and stretch it out for 1-4 years)....or...they'll get a phony majority government and operate as a de facto dictatorship for the next 5 years over a hapless public that mostly didn't vote for them in the first place!

We need proportional representation in this country, and we need it desperately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM

Liberals, again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Bardford
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:19 PM

It's encouraging to see the Greens polling in the 7% range - around 10% in B.C. Official party status (and funding) if they garner enough votes. This may be the last election where they are considered a fringe party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:09 PM

No, no, no Harper. Better the devil you know - Martin. Could we please see the NDP as opposition? Jack Layton actually looks great. Wouldn't you like to see him as PM? I would but I know he doesn't have a chance.

Martin is a scumbag. He's already bilked Canadians out of tax dollars with his own off-shore companies, never mind the cuts he imposed to the provinces. Then he stabbed Chretien. What makes people think he will reform as PM? Oh no - just wait until he has some real power and watch what he can do. Besides that, he obviously drinks entirely too much - look at all those broken veins on his face! He's all jowly and overweight, too. A real fat cat thats over the hill.

Jack Layton, on the other hand is fit, energenic and nice to look at. He really does look and sound like a Canadian.

I won't even mention Harper - the racist, the woman-hater, the gay basher and the war monger!

Looks like the choice is the devil or the deep blue sea.

We need a new voting process!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:13 PM

We need people we can trust in Ottawa. There are about fifteen of them, but that could be wishful thinking on my part. It would be nice for a change to have a bit of honesty in Parliament. However, don't expect that anytime soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:25 PM

Hey Dianavan, your method of picking a suitable PM is kind of weird. Perhaps Barbie and Ken should run as they both look great! Ken don't have no veins on his face and Barbie, well, Barbie just looks super!

I personally would like to get some Green going into Ottawa for a change instead of having all the green flowing out.

Stew


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:47 PM

When she says he "looks great", I don't think she means it on quite that superficial a level, Stew. :-)

He looks good to me too, and I'm not referring to his pearly teeth, but to his general lively, intelligent, keen manner. I think he'd be an excellent prime minister.

Harper? I'd vote for anyone else before I'd trust his ex-Reform team of "trickle-down" theorists (who are promising to both cut taxes AND improve social programs...HA! HA!). Talk about big liars. Anyone else!

Our local liberal member (Paul de Villers) is a good guy who deserves to be re-elected once more, but I don't think he'll make it this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 12:54 AM

I'm in a difficult riding here, the incumbant was a Reform Party representative, who quit when the Conservatives and the Reform Party merged and is now running for the Liberals. He still remains a very strong advocate of private Health Care and bringing in HMOs as an answer to problems within the system.

I take, from his literature, he believes that, permitting those with money to pay to for privately available health care and get out of the queue, will free up space and money in the public system. As this already occurs, for those who have the means to pay for private care in the States, with no positive effect on the current public system, I have requested that he clarify his reasoning, but so far I have not had a reply from his office.

In his literature he has also stated that he has personally spoken to Martin about his ideas and Martin is in favour of changing the Health Care Act???

Then we have another Reform Party Conservative running too, so my choice is between a devil I do know and a devil I do know. Some choice there.....

Which leaves the NDP, which used to do well in this riding, and the Greens, both of which may be buried in the attempt to keep Reform from getting a majority.

I guess I will wait to the final moment to vote and check out what disaster has been generated from Ontario, eastward, before attempting to nullify someone's vote out there, with my miserable choice. It will be odd voting for the first time in an election, where I will already know the results in the eastern part of the country, prior to casting my ballot. I'm not sure I believe that is a good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 07:50 AM

If you live in the east..Atlantic Canada that is, Harper thinks we are all welfare bums who do nothing but wait for gevernment cheques to arrive.My pride alone would not allow me to vote for someone who comes from the Republic of Alberta just to tell us how useless we all are.
   As For the Liberals...well my vote will go to the NDP and I hope to God they win just to let those smug bastards know that we can turf the lot of them out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 09:44 PM

Damn!!! Its too bad he's a separtist and only running candidates in Quebec, I've been watching the debates and I'd vote for Duceppe for Prime Minister over any of the other candidates. He's sharp, he sticks to the point and he's head and shoulders above the others. Why can't the other Parties find a leader of that calibre with a federalist viewpoint?


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 09:56 PM

I live in Alberta. The province pretty much votes some sort of conservative. I will cast my vote on June 19 at the advance poll and watch another candidate get elected against my better judgement and my vote. However, "Democracy is the clumsiest form of government in the world, except for all those other systems that have been tried from time to time." (WC, but I think I paraphrased him.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:32 AM

Damn!!! Its too bad he's a separtist and only running candidates in Quebec, I've been watching the debates and I'd vote for Duceppe for Prime Minister over any of the other candidates. He's sharp, he sticks to the point and he's head and shoulders above the others. Why can't the other Parties find a leader of that calibre with a federalist viewpoint?

Duceppe was able to be the way he was in the debates because he's not running for PM. He already knew that he had a lock on the vast majority of Quebec ridings, and he was the only francophone, thus his "winning" performance in the French debate. And for the English debate, he knew he had nothing to lose and nothing to gain, so he was exempt from the pressure faced by the other leaders.

As for the overall calibre of the leaders, we're a long way from the days when Trudeau faced off against the likes of Stanfield, Douglas and Lewis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:42 AM

Hear, hear! That is too true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:28 AM

I would like to see at least one leader who knows that there is a Canada east of Quebec. I don't thing we need proportional representation, I think we need at least ONE NATIONAL PARTY rather than all of these regional ones..Two central Parties..Liberals, NDP..one Western Party...Reform(Conservative..ha ha) the Bloc..Quebec. That is what is wrong woth this election and the four previous ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Bardford
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:23 AM

Hey Guest - Check out The Green Party. Running canditates in all 308 ridings. Too bad the television debate organizers saw fit to exclude Jim Harris (Green Party leader) from the podium.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 12:44 PM

Backstage Manager, I know re Duceppe, I was being facetious. And your so right about our lack of statesmen of substance. Instead of learning anything of any depth or value regarding their platforms, I was just left with the impression I had just viewed a babbling puppet show rather than a debate.

Martin appeared as a characature of himself from Spitting Images, Layton, a hand puppet from Mr. Dressup, while Harper reminded me of a smug marionette funeral director or smirking car salesman saying "Trust me," while wringing his oily hands.

Then again, maybe puppet shows are all that's now warranted in this satellite country.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:07 PM

Watching Layton, I was reminded of an agressive used car salesman. I was really hoping to be able to vote NDP this time, but Layton, and particularly his pandering to the separatists (which will net him not one separatist's vote) negates that desire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:42 PM

it's the mustache *BG*. He had an edge of Casey, of Casey and Finnegan that made him too wooden to come off totally as a used car salesman, to me, but he was sure selling and not debating. Actually I didn't get the impression he was pandering to the separtists, as much as the separtists were pandering to him, which left him at a loss, because he couldn't find an appropriate cue in his ridgid script. Cunning ploy on the part of Duceppe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 02:13 PM

Brian....Frankie McKenna?...are you serious...thought we NBers killed him long ago...he's a bigger crook then papa Jean!!.....

I agree 100% with the Duceppe comments...if he wasnt a traitor he'd make a good man to run the Country...knows his facts, and sticks to his beliefs...again..good qualities...for a traitor.

People in this Country have to stop relying on what Daddy, and Grand-Daddy voted and stand up. I dont understand throwing away a vote..ie. Bloc, Green Party, and even NDP. They will never gain the votes to run this Country. Why not make a smart vote one way or the other Red or Blue and allow a Majority Govt to run the Country. If they bash us to hell for 4 yrs, try it again.

The Maritimes will never have a say in Fed Govt again, Elsie Wayne retired, and Peter McKay pissed off too many people..another Traitor. Everyone from the East (myself included) knows PQ, ON, and AB determine the Leadership for this Country and I think I'd rather trust a Redneck from AB over a snotty nosed rich kid from Southern Ontario anyday!....(dont bash me all at once..its just an opinion).....Slainte!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:47 PM

I think Martin will win with a small majority.

Once the friggin' Conservative group define what their mission is (right now it seems like lots of fancy-sounding stuff that equates to more privately-owned health services, a taxation policy that isn't quite clear except it's going to save everyone money and still leave enough to pay down the national debt, give everyone a chicken to put in the pot they may or may not legalize--hell boys and girls, they sound like what we already have. Oh, yeah, they'll get rid of the gun registry--likely a good thing to do because no one was stupid enough to register EVERY gun they own, and if they ever come to collect, they'll likely be shot by the one that wasn't registered.) and stop promising us absolutely everything, they may stand a chance. But, not this time 'round.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Yer bud, Velcro.

Will Rogers was right. "All politics is apple sauce."


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:53 PM

Martin the fat cat, Harper the biggot and Layton the huckster. That leaves Duceppe. Too bad you can only vote for him if you live in Quebec.

What really put me off Martin during the debate was that he kept putting his hand up to the opponents. As if he was ignoring them or creating a wall. What was that? Did you notice his 'special' podium with the edge built up so as to conceal his notebook? Well the notebook fell to the floor and he also spilled his water.

Harper is just not happening at all. He's another Bushite. Even a wrote a letter to the Wall Street Journal apologizing for the fact that we were not fully involved with Iraq. Tacky, tacky, tacky.

I like Jake Layton and his platform but he did come across as a bit of a cornball. It was also irritating the way he kept butting in. This is an odd campaign. I suspect it will be Liberals with NDP in opposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:50 PM

My recipe for an improved political system is NO parties whatsoever. Vote for individual local candidates on their character and their ideas and their past record of performance (if any). Then let them appoint a prime minister as their chairman(person) in parliament, no ruling party, no official opposition, but a cooperative body of representatives who work together to form policy, debate that policy, consult their constituents, and pass legislation. That is exactly what happens in a city council, and it works just fine. Political parties are a disease. They don't promote democracy, they thwart it.

I would make the same recommendation in any other country too.

But I know it ain't gonna happen. :-) Too many vested interests are controlling the $ySStem, and they like it just the way it already is. Tammany Hall is not going to go quietly off into the night when there are $billions yet to be stolen and squandered and laundered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:09 PM

And yet another statement that is too true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:39 PM

Why do some feel that it is absolutely essential to have a majority government? Don't forget that it was a two term Liberal minority government under Pearson, being propped up and pressured by the old CCF, that was responsible for the inception of medicare in this country and better old age pensions.

IMO, Pearson's government then, was a far better representation of the views and aspirations of the majority of Canadians, than most of the majority governments we have had since that time. Besides if anything goes wrong, expense-wise, they can always lay the blame at the feet of the NDP and the Bloc and come up smelling like roses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

I wouldn't mind a minority government. The trade-offs prior to a vote often lead to better legislation. However, thereare only three times in my life I ever voted for the party that formed the gov't, so I ain't holdin' my breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:16 PM

Dianavan, I see your reasons for looking at Mr. Layton and seeing a potential Leader, much in the same respect that I can look at Mr. Duceppe and see a good Leader. But being realistic, we have to look at what the Party stands for, not just the man at the helm. Do you really think Socialism can work in Canada? How many COuntries have tried Socialism only to crumble in the end?...On paper its a great idea.."Shiny happy people holding hands"...but come on...our Defence system would crumble much more then it has already, health care would definately worsen by Socialism, and Im sorry to admit it, but...I work for a living..so should everyone else. We have enough Social and Welfare problems in Canada, and Layton's little Orange men would only make it worse......Slainte!..


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:47 PM

Three points I'd like to make:

1) I believe beyond a doubt that Harper has a hidden agenda. Did anyone know that when Canada refused to join the Iraq invasion, Harper wrote a letter of apology to the Wall Street Journal, "on behald of all Canadians"? He also fudges on important issues like our social safety net, women's reproductive rights, gay marriage, etc. I think he is a hypocrite, a right-wing fundamentalist, a bigot, and a staunch defender of The American Way, including war.

2) Both the Conservatives and the NDP are fairly extreme, one to the right, the other to the left. I agree far more with the leftist platform, but will vote Liberal (holding my nose) because it is the only centrist party we have left.

3) Friends of mine from Ontario, who were solid PC, changed to the NDP when they got to know Jack Layton, what he does, what he and his wife represent, and what he knows. They said Layton is extremely intelligent and has a lot of integrity. Too bad that moustache makes him look like a used car salesman!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:47 PM

P.S. I forgot to add: look to the experience our American neighbours are having with a far right government. Yikes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM

hehe...not the first time I heard the "Used-Car Salesman" re. Layton....I think this is the first time in any Election that I've heard soooo many people refer to this election being all about "the Devil you know" and "the Lesser of two Evils"...well...good luck to us all and our decision on the 28th...as a Fed. Govt. Employee who is currently away from my riding, I voted yesterday....right or wrong choice...I'm still not sure........Slainte!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:29 PM

ReelBrew, while I have seen countries crumble that have "elected?" communist governments, countries that have elected social democratic governments, seem to be still on the map of the world. Last time I looked Spain, the UK, Poland, Hungary and The Czech Republic were still there. France and Sweden didn't disappear either. In fact if what you believe had been the case, the whole map of Europe would look very strange indeed.

While I think Layton is a bit lame as an individual, a lot of the things that make this country and others in the world very worthwhile places to live, for the average citizen, were not the result of unfettered capitalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 05:20 PM

Metchosin, I far from said the Countries fell off the face of the Earth, simply that their Socialism collapsed...some Countries have not fully resolved the issues either...ie. the State of some Nations you mentioned above...ever been to Poland, Hungary, or the Czech Republic?..I have...I'm much cosier in Canada, thanks......Slainte!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 07:07 PM

I was in Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic in 2002, and they were doing fine -- booming, in fact, with the exception of some rural areas of Poland and Hungary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 08:42 PM

ReelBrew, How many COuntries have tried Socialism only to crumble in the end?

Sorry if I misunderstood what you had intended to say, I just responded to what, in fact, you did say. Guess I'm not much at reading minds.*BG*


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 09:09 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 09:17 PM

Writing from Canada (Toronto) at the moment! Maybe the air pressure up north here explains why I messed up the last post.
Anyway
Have spoken to a number of my Canadian customers about the upcoming festivities, and the response has been a unanimous groan. Nobody seems to be happy about whatever the outcome might be. But the question, "What will Quebec do now?", has come up several times and seems to be a worry.
Oh well, I vote south of the border and have my own problems there.
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Raptor
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:03 AM

Don't Kid yourself The CON-Self-Serve-A-Tives Have a great chance of winning and we should be scared shitless of that. Its not who you vote for this election its who you vote against!

The NDP don't have a chance so if you vote for them you are not effectively voting against Harper! If the people don't vote Liberal the bastard will win and we might as well vote bush in here!

The green party are starting to sound like a good choice but they are still not ready to lead anyone!

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:52 AM

Odd Raptor, maybe just a case of misunderstood semantics, but I've never voted for anyone in 40 years, in order that they should "lead" me. I've always tried to cast a vote for a candidate who best represented my viewpoints and came closest to my hopes and aspirations for the citizens of this country. Although, I have on occasion held my nose and voted for what felt to be the least damaging of options in some elections.

I've never felt the need to be led in a parlimentary democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:43 PM

I voted in the advance poll today at 12:15 PM. My candidate doesn't have a chance at all. But, for the time it took me to mark an X, I was the boss. God, I love this country.

Please ensure we have a democracy in the years to come. VOTE like your freedom depended on it. It may. Once these bastards think we ain't interested enough to mark an X, they may start thinking we really don't care.

Even if all you do is mar your ballot--VOTE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:22 PM

Harper: Redneck Biggot
Martin: Corrupt Thief
Layton: Used-Car Salesman
Duceppe: Traitor

Ah yes...Democracy....who can least-fu@k up our Country....10 days and counting folks!...So..here's a question...if you could walk up to any one Canadian and decide that person will run the Country...who would you choose? ..me..I'd pick Lewis MacKenzie. Conservative with strong Liberal values. Definatley would not sell out his Country and wouldnt back down either....what do my fellow Canuck-Catters say?..


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:52 PM

Back in the Mulroony days (remember them ?) a popular message on washroom walls read:
" If you voted Tory you can't shit here because your arsehole is in Ottawa!"
Harper and Martin are both cut from the same cloth so there is great danger of national constipation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:16 PM

There are a few Catters who come to mind, but I won't embarrass them by saying who. I would start with someone honest and worry about the other stuff later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 01:56 AM

ReelBrew, where in the World did you come up with a defintion of "socialism" that equates to: "people not working" ????

EVERY country in the the World has "tried socialism" and HAS socialism established in major ways right now already.

"Socialism" is not an all-or-nothing exclusive concept that allows nothing else beside it, it's part of a functioning modern society with a tax base, a goverment, an armed forces, a justice system, etc.

Your mistake is in thinking that it is all-or-nothing and denies capitalism. It's not and it doesn't. You need both socialism and free enterprise if you want a fully healthy nation, in my opinion. Socialism to provide: government, police, military, health coverage, transportation management at a wide level (building roads, etc), educational systems, major utility management (such as water supply, and so on)....and ANYTHING that is too large and all-encompassing...or too nonprofitable...to be feasible by the private sector. These socialist structures are what you pay your taxes for! As it says on the USA's IRS building, "Taxation is the price we pay for Civilization". Dead right.

And we need free enterprise to provide: Unique creativity by many different people in many different creative and manufacturing a d job fields, thus stimulating a tremendously vibrant number of imaginative initiatives of all kinds by the citizenry.

"Socialism" does NOT mean doing away with all free enterprise to me, and it doesn't to the NDP either.

The systems that failed weren't what I call "socialism", they were totally centralized communism...and they failed because they were too centralized, too undemocratic, too militaristic, and very much out of touch with the aspirations of the ordinary people...plus, the West outspent them on military hardware until they went broke. That would have happened whether or not they had been communist, providing the West had decided to compete with Russia. Russia could not match the whole financial power of America combined with western Europe and Japan. They could never have matched it, whether they went capitalist or not.

China is a different story. China is a power that can shake the World once they get going...and they are well on the way.

I am saying this: your definition of "socialism" is faulty, because it assumes that socialism is an all-or-nothing proposition. It's not. Everyone has socialism, and in fact must have socialism. We couldn't function without it unless you wanted to give up every key social advancement that has been achieved in the last few thousand years, and return to a hunter-gatherer society living at a bare subsistence level of mere survival.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:01 AM

Thank you Little Hawk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 02:04 PM

Little Hawk...the key things you said in that nice little rant is.."in my opinion"...and.."to me"..stating the above was in fact YOUR opinion...so how can you call my opinion wrong since it is MY opinion?...


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,James
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 12:44 PM

I think this is a great country and we are often well off and prosperous in spite of the politicians. Bit this time I feel that we are on the verge of a serious philosphical change if we elect Harper...that shift scares me as I believe that he and his party are essentially anti-canadian. I am not a huge fan of Mr. Martin or his party but they have not been terrible..I would like to see the NDP get a shot,perhaps as the opposotion. I have never been in such a quandry as to how to vot nor have I ever had such great concern for our country's future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 01:50 PM

Not to worry. Harper said he would allow a free vote on abortion. His chances of getting any amount of the vote are practicaly nil. You cannot offend over fifty percent of the voters and get anywhere. The Bloc has me "concerned".


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Justa Picker
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:16 PM

(I received this today via e-mail...and thought I'd post it as a "public service".)

Anybody but Harper by Howard White


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:35 PM

I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 09:01 PM

well I just came back from 3 weeks in the Czech Republic.
Theyre anything but socialist.

on the other hand depends what you mean - the term socialism - when relating to the former communist countries meant the traditional marxist definition. ie socialist society is transitional to the ideal communist society where the state has withered away etc.

voting for the liberals holding my nose.. thats kinda how I feel.
and I agree theres nothing wrong with a minority lib govt, Pearson implemented some lasting positive policies with CCF support.
But it will likely mean another election in 2005.
petr


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 11:32 PM

Oh, I was just drawing attention to your apparent one-dimensional definition of socialism, ReelBrew, that's all. :-) I think someone scared you badly with lurid tales of the socialist bogeyman, and you've never been the same since. I think you've got socialism confused with Stalinism or something.

It's not an all-or-nothing proposition, but you seem to think it is. Stalinism or Maoism is an all-or-nothing proposition, and so is the Mafia (a capitalist outfit in its basic approach) or the Ku Klux Klan or the Nazis. Socialism is simply a part of any ordinary modern society. It is what you do with public funds raised through taxation, and it is impossible to have a functioning modern society without it. It can easily coexist alongside healthy and vigorous capitalism, and it does in almost every society presently existing on planet Earth. The government you vote for is itself a socialist institution, in that it exists by public funding and serves the overall society (or is supposed to, anyway). Even a Republican government is a socialist institution, for all that they will blather on about how "socialism" is a dirty word in their universe.

That's just PR, and it's a scare tactic that ignores the reality of the situation.

If I have misunderstood your definition of socialism, however, let's hear it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 11:38 PM

Thanks for the "Anybody but Harper" e-mail posted above. I will now send it to all my friends via e-mail, and may just get some surprises back!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 09:29 AM

The Globe and Mail says the Liberals are now ahead and that Harper just looks worse as the campaign goes on. I always though he looked awful..anti everything. I hope the Liberals win...not because I like them but because I know enough about them to be sure they won't wreck the place...totally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:02 PM

Just curious. How many Canadian Mudcatter suicides whould we expect to read about if Harper wins the election?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:03 PM

Oops! Should (not would)
DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:06 PM

How many would we hear about if Kerry won?


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:33 PM

If Harper wins, the country will survive. But it will be badly damaged, that's all. Following which, the new Conservative Party will get devastated and wiped off the political map the way the old one did after Brian Mulroney. Same old nonsense, repeated over and over and over again.

As for the Liberals, they are corrupt and self-serving, but they're far less dangerous than the Conservatives.

I would certainly not consider committing suicide over such matters. I don't accord these politicians enough importance for that.

Life goes on, regardless...


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:35 PM

haha...good point Brucie...well kids..very interesting discussion here to be honest...(cant believe the thread has lasted this long)..I find it interesting that there's such wide spread opinions...funny thing is...left or right...much like eyes, legs, arms, etc. One can't work so well without the other, really. Sure they can manage, and eventually adapt, but not to its full capacity.

My vote's already been decided. I'm afraid fellow Canadians that you will run me up the gallow along side Mr. Harper. But, to be honest, I dont give a fiddler's fart about abortion because I'm not a woman, I dont give a damn about the poor because I'm not poor, and I support the campaign in Iraq because I can....sorry folks....


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:03 PM

petr, the center-left Social Democrats, the equivalent of the NDP here, emerged in first place in the 2002 elections and in cooperation with the centrist, two-party coalition were able to form a government with a narrow parliamentary majority. So much for scary socialists, eh. My eldest daughter was in the Czech Republic a couple of years ago and just loved it.         

Pearson and the Liberals brought in medicare, kicking and screaming, not because they were the champions of progressive, social programmes, but because it served as an appeasement to the left, in order to maintain power. The mood of a large chunk of Canadian voters had turned decidedly left, into the arms of the CCF, and that was scary to the powers that be.

Finally paying attention to the aspirations of the "average Canadian voter", was the only way to prevent the collapse of the Liberal minority government. It was a cunning move on the Liberal's part, because not only did it defuse the left, it also resulted in Pearson being considered, by some, as the father of Medicare in Canada, instead of more rightfully, Tommy Douglas and the CCF/NDP....and it also maintained the devine right of kings.*BG*


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:05 PM

Huh? Are you actually Mr Dithers, ReelBrew? Or are you Conrad Black? That was genuinely funny, if you were being serious. :-) I think there is a great job waiting for you as either a columnist for the Toronto Sun or a talk-show host. You could really piss people OFF saying stuff like that and the ratings would go through the roof! Add a little bad language and you could be the Howard Stern of Canada.

Are you just comfortably well off or what some people call "filthy rich"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:07 PM

The Guest post was me, sans cookie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:08 PM

well Guest 2:03 at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:21 PM

And a good point, Metchosin...the only time that really progressive legislation is brought in in Canada (and many other places) is when a "leftist" 3rd party begins to actually threaten to be a major influence. Then the Gliberals will forestall it by invoking some progressive legislation adopted from the left, thus depriving the leftists of their main appeal to the public. Then everything goes back to normal again. Phony maneuvering, of the rich, by the rich, for the rich. The Liberals pretend to be progressive, but they have only one love, and that is being in power. The Conservatives don't pretend anything of the sort. They are more honest about their general rapaciousness...which appears to be based upon "survival of the fittest".

The Liberals are a centrist party that goes where the money is. The Conservatives are a right-of-center party that goes where the money is. The Liberals swing right or left according to the prevailing social climate, being mere creatures of opportunity, and they believe deep in their hearts that they, and only they, really deserve to run Canada. The Conservatives would rather see the USA run Canada...


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:27 PM

<>Pearson and the Liberals brought in medicare, kicking and screaming, not because they were the champions of progressive, social programmes, but because it served as an appeasement to the left, in order to maintain power. The mood of a large chunk of Canadian voters had turned decidedly left, into the arms of the CCF, and that was scary to the powers that be.

Finally paying attention to the aspirations of the "average Canadian voter", was the only way to prevent the collapse of the Liberal minority government. It was a cunning move on the Liberal's part, because not only did it defuse the left, it also resulted
in Pearson being considered, by some, as the father of Medicare in Canada, instead of more rightfully, Tommy Douglas and the CCF/NDP....and it also maintained the devine right of kings.*BG*

Medicare in Canada was achieved in stages and universal coverage across the country was achieved in 1972 under Trudeau, long after Peason retired.

Also, the CCF ceased to exist when it became a founding component of the NDP in 1961. Lester Pearson became prime minister in 1963.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:30 PM

The way my post of a moment ago should have looked...

Pearson and the Liberals brought in medicare, kicking and screaming, not because they were the champions of progressive, social programmes, but because it served as an appeasement to the left, in order to maintain power. The mood of a large chunk of Canadian voters had turned decidedly left, into the arms of the CCF, and that was scary to the powers that be.

Finally paying attention to the aspirations of the "average Canadian voter", was the only way to prevent the collapse of the Liberal minority government. It was a cunning move on the Liberal's part, because not only did it defuse the left, it also resulted in Pearson being considered, by some, as the father of Medicare in Canada, instead of more rightfully, Tommy Douglas and the CCF/NDP....and it also maintained the devine right of kings.*BG*


Medicare in Canada was achieved in stages and universal coverage across the country was achieved in 1972 under Trudeau, long after Peason retired.

Also, the CCF ceased to exist when it became a founding component of the NDP in 1961. Lester Pearson became prime minister in 1963.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:57 PM

Little Hawk,

Thanks!..I'm harmless really...Just a silly well-off musician who who actually does work for a living on the side....minored in Poli Sci in Univ. and love getting people fiesty for their passions...and for Canadians its war, hockey, and politics.....Slainte!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 03:59 PM

ReelBrew,

Well, hockey anyway, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Justa Picker
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 04:02 PM

Doug,
On this one, the country would be committing political suicide if they vote in these neo-cons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 04:03 PM

I dunno Brucie...I think I've done an ok job rustling a few feathers in this thread...quite proud of myself actually...even had a co-worker read my "I'm voting for Harper" post before I sent it...and even she wanted to hit me...well..actually..she did hit me..


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 04:34 PM

I have already voted, and it wasn't for Harper. Keep at it, RB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM

Backstage Manager, perhaps to clarify my statement for you, I should have said that the mood of a large chunk of Canadian voters"in the fifties and early sixties" had turned decidedly left, into the arms of the CCF, and that was scary to the powers that be.

Universal medicare was introduced to Saskatchewan by Tommy Douglas and the CCF in 1959 and passed into law there in 1961.

However, like it or not, universal medicare for the rest of Canada came into law under under Lester B. Pearson in 1966, with Tommy Douglas then running federally under the banner of the NDP, hence my reference CCF/NDP.

That the final t's were crossed and i's dotted by Trudeau is irrelevant. He may be considered the first Prime Minister to finger his constituents, use the words fuddle duddle and bring in the War Measures Act to suspend civil rights, when we were not involved in a World War, but he was not the Father of Medicare.

Healthcare


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 04:53 PM

I absolutely agree that Tommy Douglas is the father of Medicare.

However, Pearson did not bring in the universal medicare that every Canadian in every province is entitled to in 1966. Pearson brought in a form of *health insurance* that was still a long way from universal medicare.

*Universal medicare* was brought in during the Trudeau era.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 05:10 PM

Ah well my dears I only know one Canadian politician so I shall Have to leave the thought provoking posts to others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 05:12 PM

bye the bye is Bernard Patry standing this time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 05:14 PM

That was a very prosperous era, which made it easier to enact such legislation, I imagine. Trudeau was a fascinating man. I liked his international stance, but often disagreed with his domestic policies.

Robert Stanfield was a decent man, as is Joe Clark. I miss all of them. I miss Tommy Douglas too. I don't miss Mulroney...but my! didn't he have a lovely speaking voice. :-) Ed Broadbent is back in action, and that's good to see, but I doubt that the NDP will ever act as anything but a third party on the national scale. They have done better than that in certain provinces from time to time, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Justa Picker
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 05:43 PM

I think if Harper somehow got a majority government, Ontario should separate. I personally would have no problem with it and I don't think Harper would either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Justa Picker
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 07:07 PM

Edmonton or Calgary could become the new capital of their Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 07:14 PM

Yippee!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 10:53 PM

Backstage Manager, perhaps to clarify my statement for you, I should have said that the mood of a large chunk of Canadian voters"in the fifties and early sixties" had turned decidedly left, into the arms of the CCF, and that was scary to the powers that be.

Public Hospital Insurance was first introduced in Saskatchewan in 1947 by Tommy Douglas and the CCF (the first socialist government in North America). Douglas and the CCF further extended it and passed it into law in 1961, as a universal medicare plan to cover doctors services as well.

However, like it or not, universal medicare for the rest of Canada came into law under Lester B. Pearson's minority government in 1966, with the passage of the Medical Care Act, with no provision to opt out. Tommy Douglas was then running federally under the banner of the NDP, hence my reference CCF/NDP. It did take about 5 years for all the provinces and territories to sign on.

Although Trudeau did some tweaking and introduced other socially progressive programmes, to again appease the left, and although he might be considered the first Prime Minister to finger his constituents, refer to his backbenchers "trained seals" and suspend civil liberties, he was not the Father of Medicare in Canada.

Some history of Healthcare in Canada

some more history of Healthcare in Canada

and some more history of health care in Canada


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 11:09 PM

ah gee, my computer said that my first reply to Backstage Manager, regarding Healthcare, didn't go through, so I added to it and tried again later....should have checked first I guess, oh well, sorry to be so repetitious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 11:24 PM

Metchosin and Little Hawk you two haven't the foggiest clue about anything and its ignorance like yours that might get Harper elected. I hope you get a clue by Monday or stay home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 12:29 AM

Please don't anyone assume that the west is pro-Harper. If he became prime minister and Ontario seceded, BC (I hope) would also secede. I doubt that Manitoba and Saskatchewan would be very happy -- this leaves Harper with Alberta, and he can have it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 12:39 AM

Guest, huh? And you know how I will vote because I passed on some facts...Facts? how dare you fuck me up with facts! Get real.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 07:54 AM

This is an interesting thread. It seems that catters are far more leary of Harper than the general population is. Here in Halifax a Conservative candidate said at a debate last evening..'why should we support Canadian films and culture. no one want to see them" end of story. Yes, that party is anti-canadian..why does the country not get it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 08:03 AM

Grew up under a different set of influences, eh, Guest? :-) Well, it's always refreshing to hear from an alternate reality.

Kind of like a Palestinian and a Likud Party member trying to discuss Middle East history...ha! Neither one would figure the other "had a clue".

You know what? They're both "right". (each from his own perspective) Being "right" is a surprisingly arbitrary business, dependent upon prejudice, partial information, and outright mythology, as well as a small amount of direct experience of Life. I am humble enough to realize that, even about myself.

But you're outta luck, pal, cos I WILL be voting on Monday. Comfort yourself with the thought that I will probably be voting in a different riding than you, so it won't affect your local winner one iota.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 08:17 AM

Uh-huh, second Guest. The Conservative Party is surprisingly anti-Canadian these days, same as the Toronto Sun. They have contempt for traditional Canadian values. They wake up and cry every morning, realizing that we haven't officially become part of the USA yet. Having lived in both Canada and the USA (for 10 years), and having seen the difference, I thank God that we haven't!

When I cross the border going North into Canada, I feel like getting out of the car, kneeling down, and kissing the ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 09:45 AM

I did that at Dorval Airport once.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 09:53 AM

Dorval Airport is now Pierre Elliot Trudeau Airport.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Raptor
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 06:23 PM

Why do some folks get so wound up over the rantings of a Guest?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:55 PM

One of the interesting aspects of Harper is that despite what he believes, he's fairly intelligent. His speech at Civitas emphasized the slowness of any changes he would make to Canada -- he called them "incremental." I believe that if he became Prime Minister and tried to force the changes he wants quickly, his government would be thrown out. I believe he must realize how unpopular his proposals are with the majority of Canadians, and will try to slowly and sneakily put them in place, hoping we don't take much notice.

Gotta vote against him!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 09:08 AM

Raptor - For the same reason some people get all worked up over which team wins some silly basketball game... :-) It gives the busy mind something to focus on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: el ted
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 09:46 AM

The West is pro Harper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 04:42 PM

depends how far west, yer talkin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 04:43 PM

The West is mainly just anti-Ontario&Quebec. That's what it amounts to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 04:56 PM

I'm not. Received a response from our Liberal/Reform candidate and I asked for still further clarification on Health Care, after he sent me the following from his platform and I quote:

"Give Canadians the option to purchase services in a parallel private system for any procedure.". (emphasis mine)


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM

Doubt if I will get another reply as this will require more than a form letter, but this is a copy of what I sent to Dr. Keith Martin MP running now as a Liberal candidate in our riding:

Dear Dr. Martin,

Thank you for your reply, however, we would still appreciate further clarification regarding the following position:

"Give Canadians the option to purchase services in a parallel private system for any procedure. Those who access this system will be freeing up space in the public system without removing resources."

1. Regarding "any procedure", would these "any" private "procedures" be performed in public hospitals or private hospitals?

2. If the procedures are to be carried out in private hospitals, do other Canadian physicians, sharing your viewpoint, have the capital to build, equip and maintain these private hospitals capable of any procedure? If not, from where do you propose the capital required for the building and equipping of these private hospitals be secured, in order to carry out "any procedure"?

3. If these "any" private "procedures" are to be carried out in public hospitals, using buildings and equipment paid from the public pocket, does that not mean that the taxpayer will be subsidizing the physician engaged in private procedures?

4. As most physicians commit all their hours now, in a public system, does not dropping the hours in the public system to 30 required hours for all physicians, cause a net loss to the public system of the availability of physicians within the public system?

5. Do you consider the advocation of a parallel private medical system an altruistic solution to the problems of funding and structure of the current Canadian public medical system?

6. Do others within the Liberal Party, seeking election, also share your viewpoint regarding a parallel private medical system?

Thank you in advance for your resonse.

Sincerely,


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 06:45 PM

They've got a medical system in Cuba that pays for EVERYTHING, including dentistry, and I noticed when I was down that that the average Cuban seems slimmer, healthier, and more active than the average Canadian or American. I wonder why? :-)

You know, if dental care was free in Canada do you really think anyone in this country would be dying slowly from being poisoned by their decaying teeth which they couldn't afford to get fixed? I don't think so.

For what I pay yearly for routine dental care in Canada (cleaning and maybe one cavity fixed), a Cuban could LIVE very nicely on for a couple of years. Some older Canadians go there to retire. I can see why. I hope their system survives for a long time, because it definitely deserves to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: black walnut
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 09:13 AM

I just want to mention by way of interruption how absolutely wonderful it is that CBC isn't reporting this time around on the polls. They mention them from time to time but it isn't the first thing they talk about on news reports, and they try to avoid talking about polls as much as possible. How refreshing. I've enjoyed CBC Radio One's focussed discussions in the afternoons on topics such as the environment, and taxes, and health care.

~b.w.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 07:43 AM

GET OUT AND VOTE TODAY....IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO BE PART OF OUR DEMOCRACY.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Raptor
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 09:14 AM

But Don't Vote for Harper!

Unless you want the be another State of America!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 10:56 AM

Yes the Great Canadian Voter will go to the booth hold their noses and Vote Liberal again. The Liberal Rapists will get a minority Government thanks to carefully controlled media attacks on Harper and continue their abuse of the Canadian Public. Sigh....soooo boring


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: black walnut
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 11:17 AM

I'm so mad that the NDPs used spammy pushy telephone advertising, along with the rest of the parties who I would have expected to intrude on my private space like that.

But I'll vote anyway.

~b.w.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 11:23 AM

Really? They've been doing telephone advertising? Ha! Another good reason for leaving the phone on the answering service all the time. I have not heard one political message yet on it.

Well, I am about to go and cast my almost meaningless vote for a representative who does not necessarily really represent me. (sigh) It just happens that the Liberal MP in my riding is a good guy whom I know and respect, and he actually deserves to be re-elected, so he will probably get my vote, despite my low opinion of his party in a more general sense. We'll see. Maybe I'll get a last minute change of heart for some reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,James
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:23 PM

I am off to the voting place..I hope my vote counts...I have never been so apprehensive about the outcome of a General election...let us hope all goes well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: black walnut
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:26 PM

A friend of mine got several phone calls from a different riding...now that's beyond annoying!

~b.w.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 12:58 AM

Liberal minority with the NDP as kingmakers! What a relief!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:57 AM

sure is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: black walnut
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:34 AM

I love when the election turns out differently from what the poll industry predicts. However, perhaps their predictions of a close race caused people to vote Liberal instead of NDP. Glad for Layton -sad for Chow!

~b.w.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 10:46 AM

Too bad about Olivia Chow. As in a number of other ridings, although they will protest otherwise, the Green Party got a Liberal elected.

She lost by 800. Green candidate got 2250. Nuff said.

Same thing happened in at least two Hamilton area ridings, and in a number of BC ridings. You can't always safely say that a Green vote would have gone NDP otherwise, but I figure that saying 1 in 3 would have is quite conservative.

We're going to have to work this one out somehow. Ideally by proportional representation, everyone would win except the Liberals and Conservatives, so that will be a tough one to get. But if Layton actually makes it his number one priority as a demand, as he has said he would, who knows? Then the Greens would owe him a big favour, such as not whacking his wife next time...

I was heavily involved in the NDP campaign in our huge rural riding.
In fact we had the election night party here. We got 13.2% which we were very happy about--way up from last time, and this is a very Conservative area since Moses was a pup.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 12:29 PM

In BC, the Conservatives saw their share of the popular vote dip 20 percentage points, while the NDP's jumped 15. The Conservatives only got 36.25 % of the vote here, which means that almost 64%, did not vote for them.

So much for el ted's proclamation that the west, is pro Harper. It's blanket statements such as that, that make some British Columbians feel that a fair number Ontario eastward have little understanding of anything about this country, beyond their own provincial boundaries.

Alberta may be strident, but it is not the only province east of Ontario. BC is the 3rd most populous province in Canada and has almost twice the population of the whole of Atlantic Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM

Marvelous! The best result possible. Minority governments are far more likely to pass good legislation than majority governments, because they cannot get away with acting like a de facto dictatorship. They have to LISTEN for a change.

Canada has once again shown that it does not want to turn to the radical right. It's essentially a far more liberal society than the USA, and always has been.

The peculiar thing, though, is that the ruling Liberal Party has gotten elected 4 times now by promising NOT to move to the right....but as soon as they were safely in office they pushed through legislation very similar to what they said the wouldn't do! (meaning legislation taken straight from the policy pages of the Right which the majority of people voted AGAINST when we voted Liberal...or NDP)

This indicates to me that big business actually runs both the Liberal and the Conservative parties behind the scenes, and it doesn't matter a damn what the voters have to say about it. Right wing social policy goes forward regardless of whether it gets voted out or not.

You can see the same thing in England where a supposedly Labour government has been hijacked by Tony Blair who is pushing foreign policies which have betrayed the very constituency that elected him and have alienated much of his own party membership.

It's an absolute scandal, and we as voters do not seem to be in any position to alter the situation.

I am hoping that the NDP moves the Liberals to the left this time, in spite of themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 12:54 PM

Reel...
sorry it has been so long for the reply... but yes, I do believe that Teflon Frank McKenna has a good shot at the PMship, probably about 6 yrs down the road (win a seat either in a by- or general election, get a big spot like justice, finance, or industry, then go for it during a leadership convention). Bernard Lord, the current NB Premier who many had hoped would go federal for the PC's, hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell to get the Big Chair.

Brian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:27 PM

IMO, much of the pool of the "liberal" ethic in this country, is the result of the people of Quebec. Which is one of the main reasons that talk of separation is so disconcerting for me, aside from all the other ramifications. Quebec, in a lot of ways represents the "heart" of this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM

Did anyone else catch Rick Mercer's sumation of the results on the CBC? I was ROTFLMAO, perhaps the most insightful and cutting observations of the whole election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 03:31 PM

I think you are right on the mark there, Metchosin. Good point. The French may in a weird way be the saving grace of this country, so let's keep 'em in it if at all possible.

Back in the colonial days it was the French who were flexible and "liberal" about lifestyle, etc, which allowed them to relate to the Natives far better than the notoriously tight-assed British...who had to have everything their way. The French are natural born liberals and radicals, it seems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 03:35 PM

The Bloc vote I think is not so much a show of support for separation as it is an anti-Liberal statement. Martin got too big for our good. It's interesting that the Conservatives are a coalition, and it is equally interesting that it will take a coalition of NDP and Liberal to pass legislation. The NDP have needed this opportunity for years. Now, if only they can avoid stepping on their cranks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:12 PM

And before any relax a bit, on the CBC, David Anderson, carrot up his ass, self impressed twit of the year, narrowly re-elected Liberal for Victoria, just praised Keith Martin, narrowly re-elected Reform/Conservative/come Liberal for his ideas and position on Health Care.

We almost managed to dump the Keith the Rat in this riding, sorry we in the very far west couldn't prevent sending him your way, it wasn't for lack of trying for a goodly amount.

My question is, if the current public system is so bloody bad that the rich want to opt out, in favour of their own private system, why would they assume that the current public system is good enough for the rest of us plebes? Universal public health care needs some repairs, it doesn't need to be gutted. The NDP better godamned keep the Liberal's feet to the fire on this issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:21 PM

I have no affiliation with the NDP, do my opinions about healthcare make me one of their cranks?


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:51 PM

I agree with LH now a minority govt has to tread a lot more carefully
and may bring in good legislation.

regarding the less than expected conservative showing in BC though I think it has more to do with peoples reaction against the provincial
govt. which even is actually conservative (despite its name Liberal Party)

and probably the other reason is that over the years - the population has changed in BC, with a steady influx from Ontario over the last 20years. It wasnt until John Turner ran in vancouver in 84 that the lliberals got a seat west of Ontario for years(not counting 1or2 manitoba seats)


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Justa Picker
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:52 PM

It worked out perfectly.
Liberals got the minority and can work with the NDP to pass legislation and can tell Reform-Alliance-Conservative and the *Block to go fuck themselves.

*I've never understood how a party committed to the break up off the country are permitted to be Federal Party and to have Federal seats in the legislature, since they represent the interests of only 1 province. Then again the same could be said of the Neo Cons in their conservative clothing and Alberta. Interestingly enough, one of the main advisers and movers and shakers guiding their election strategy and policies from the shadows was non other than Brian Mulroney, the unrepentant and arrogant bastard responsible for the demise of the original conservative party and who brought us the wonderful GST.

Mercifully the CDN people are not as collectively stupid as I thought they were, going into yesterday's election. Small miracles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 05:09 PM

Canadians are a socialist-type people. That's a result of geography and demographics. With all its faults, Canadian health care is light years ahead of most of the world.

Parenthetically, of course rich people want to have a separate health care system for themselves: they're rich. Don't want to wait in line like the plebes. Hell, ya gotta be rich in the first place to think like that (line borrowed from "Platoon").


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 06:02 PM

We seem to share a similar opinion Guest.

I was going to post the following earlier, then changed my mind because I figured I was rambling a bit. So here's the ramble, not as succinct as you own.

Guest petr, I think another another reason too, for more Liberal votes here in BC, than in the past, is the change in BC demographics regarding the increase in the Asian population in lower mainland ridings. The Asian vote has, historically, usually supported the Liberals.

Not miracles IMO, Justa Picker, Canadians generally are a pretty stubborn bunch. When they have a mind to, they do put their foot down and declare "No bloody way!" The attitude made some of them quite difficult for their officers to deal with during WWII. Not only did we develop a fairly strong sense of self preservation, but also a need born out of necessity, in a land that could be particularly harsh, to realize that our survival often calls for collective activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 07:17 PM

Metchosin, you bet we do share a similar opinion. Try as they do, I find that Canadians are a bit slower to swing to the right of the political spectrum than are amny other peoples. As you astutely point out. there is a healthy skepticism of everything governmental, and we tend to look at our elected as guys and gals getting our money to make the country work. However, this type of vote (minority government) is a kick in the ass to the ruling party and is a polite way of saying

1) We don't like the alternatives we have been offered or more of us would have voted for one of them

2) We are willing to allow you to become more like what we want and you have a few years to do that

3) We will vote Conservative in the next election (maybe 18 months away) just to teach you a lesson

4) We didn't like the Conservatives in this election because they thought they were so cute and very slick--we don't do cute or slick

5) Stop stealing our money if you wish to remain employed

I truly hope the NDP can became a bit more of a people's party. They have to offer a vision the rest of us can see. They would triple their votes if they did. Harper will sell us to the States; however, Martin will allow the States to steal us. I am not sure the NDP know where the States are, and of course the Bloc will lose many seats if the Liberals can at least portray a picture of honesty, something they haven't done for a few years now.

Later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 10:15 PM

I read today that this election had the lowest voter turnout since 1898, and I'm really puzzled -- I thought it would be a record high, since there was so much agitation going on about it. It was apparently around 60%.

Any ideas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:35 PM

Maybe 40% were hoping that Canada would adopt an Australian style ballot and have an extra box to mark NONE OF THE ABOVE.

Cadman could still give the Liberals a majority. Sort of the antithesis of Elijah Harper, only played out in BC instead of Manitoba, although somehow I doubt Cadman would hold up a feather.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 02:03 PM

Low voter turnout = high voter apathy.

Not about the issues, but more about the futility of the process since there is a high level of cynicism (especially amongst younger voters which contribute most to the numbers of those who didn't show up to mark their X) concerning the conduct of those elected once they get in. "It doesn't matter who wins," they figure, "They're all lying bastards and break their promises and do whatever they want for their cronies once they get in power."

The conduct of the provincial Liberals in Ontario has certainly reinforced this opinion, but let's not forget we had an honest politician in this province not long ago... Mike Harris and his Conservatives did exactly what they threatened to do. More's the pity! Just goes to show you that it really does matter that you get out and vote; there really are idealogical differences to choose from.

And if nothing else, my particip[ating in the vote gives me "bitching" rights. If you couldn't be bothered to go vote now, then shut the fuck up later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 02:50 PM

Here Here to "Bitching Rights"!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 03:10 PM

Yeah, that's the peculiar thing about politics in Canada...only the friggin' Conservatives can be counted upon to do what they SAY they are going to do if elected...and what they say they are going to do is of course, disastrously wrong! :-)

It works this way:

1. Elect a Liberal who promises not to do what those crazy Conservatives would do. Once in, he does exactly what those crazy Conservatives said they would do, while busily pretending not to at the same time. He privatizes, favours the wealthy, and reduces social services. Almost everything slowly gets worse.

2. Elect a Conservative, and he will do the same thing as the liberal, only he'll make no bones about it! He is proud of his rapacious policies, and believes that they will magically make everything get better. Almost everything gets slowly worse.

3. Elect an NDPer, and he will try desperately not to do what the Conservatives would, but he will either do it or soon get checkmated and hamstrung by the big business community and then turfed out of office. Almost everything gets slowly worse.

4. Vote for the Greens, the Canadian Action Party or an independent. They won't form a government anyway and almost everything will still get slowly worse.

5. All of the above does not count if you live in Quebec, where you can elect the Bloc Quebecois and at least feel independent and in control of the situation. :-) But chances are that things will still get worse anyway.

Conclusion: Politicians don't really run Canada (they just follow orders from Head Office), and the public doesn't really run Canada either. Big business and rich interests really run Canada...and much of that big business has its home offices in the USA.

Still, Canada's a nice place to be! I put that down to the fact that we have a basically moderate social tradition to stand on, and we are fortunate to not be a superpower with delusions of grandeur.


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Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 07:23 PM

brucie - did you find the goat? we miss your funny comments.


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