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BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity

Thomas the Rhymer 14 Jun 04 - 09:20 PM
Rapparee 14 Jun 04 - 10:39 PM
Amos 14 Jun 04 - 10:57 PM
Little Hawk 14 Jun 04 - 11:39 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 15 Jun 04 - 12:14 AM
Amos 15 Jun 04 - 12:20 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 15 Jun 04 - 01:00 AM
GUEST,Teribus 15 Jun 04 - 03:50 AM
John MacKenzie 15 Jun 04 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,Teribus 15 Jun 04 - 05:38 AM
Amos 15 Jun 04 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Teribus 15 Jun 04 - 11:30 AM
Amos 15 Jun 04 - 11:39 AM
Little Hawk 15 Jun 04 - 11:52 AM
DougR 15 Jun 04 - 01:37 PM
Amos 15 Jun 04 - 03:02 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jun 04 - 08:58 PM
dianavan 16 Jun 04 - 12:20 AM
John MacKenzie 16 Jun 04 - 03:54 AM
Frankham 16 Jun 04 - 11:17 AM
Amos 16 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 04 - 01:08 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 04 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Arkie 16 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jun 04 - 10:00 PM
Amos 16 Jun 04 - 11:56 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jun 04 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Firegod 18 Jun 04 - 04:25 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Jun 04 - 04:42 PM
Amos 18 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Jun 04 - 05:11 PM
Peace 19 Jun 04 - 04:44 PM
Teribus 21 Jun 04 - 07:17 AM
Peace 21 Jun 04 - 07:38 PM
Amos 21 Jun 04 - 08:14 PM
Peace 21 Jun 04 - 08:29 PM
CarolC 21 Jun 04 - 08:38 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jun 04 - 11:42 PM
Teribus 22 Jun 04 - 02:48 AM
CarolC 22 Jun 04 - 10:41 AM
Teribus 22 Jun 04 - 12:21 PM
Little Hawk 22 Jun 04 - 12:27 PM
CarolC 22 Jun 04 - 01:27 PM
Amos 11 Aug 05 - 11:39 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM
Donuel 12 Aug 05 - 12:34 PM
Amos 12 Aug 05 - 12:52 PM
John MacKenzie 12 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 12 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:20 PM

Well said, Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:39 PM

Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:57 PM

Well, it has been posited that having the basic needs supplied would free the attention to worry about higher things.

Of course it may be that having someone else do it for you just makes you into a dependent-minded servomechanism, not a freer or better person.

When I was in my 20's I found myself out of a job and forced to live on the charity of friends for a short while. I got a job and an apartment of my own within a week or three. There was never any question what would happen, one way or another. It was a shitty job but it gave me a place to stand on while I tried to build something better.

Anyway we have wandered a bit from the thread topic, unless someone wants to provide a bridge back...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:39 PM

I agree absolutely with Bruce and with Thomas the Rhymer on this one. And along with those inalienable rights (to food, clothing, shelter, education, and good medical care) comes an inalienable responsibility...to contribute usefully to that society in whatever way you are well suited to and to do your part in sustaining it. In this way you return something for the good things that you are receiving.

That is exactly how a good ashram or cooperative community works, and I've stayed at a couple. I believe it's pretty much how a kibbutz works too, if I'm not mistaken.

The Three Musketeers had a motto for it: "all for one and one for all" That is true equality. That is true justice. That is real democracy. That is an intelligent and responsible society...rather than a corrupt, decadent struggle for conspicous consumption, fame, and luxury over the bodies of the disadvantaged and less ruthless...which is what our mainstream society is.

Decadent societies encourage and foster stupidity in the general public, because an enlightened public would not support decadence and they would not predictably fall into line and buy product from the guys at the top.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 12:14 AM

----Well, it has been posited that having the basic needs supplied would free the attention to worry about higher things.---

So, that's what I posited, is it? Think again, Amos...

---Of course it may be that having someone else do it for you just makes you into a dependent-minded servomechanism, not a freer or better person.---

Of course... it may not. Survival based fears, when promulgated throughout scociety on the grand scale that we currently call "one paycheck away from homelessness". are no longer an issue relating to individual choice.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 12:20 AM

TTR:

I wasn't referring to you. It has been hypothesized by Maslow that peopel respond to a hierarchy of need and that when the basic survival items are handled they address higher orders of problem.

But I think there is a risk -- which you can see in the children of the rich -- that having no challenge which calls on your own efforts to bring about your own survival can be bad for your mental well-being.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 01:00 AM

Well then, maybe you ought to refer to me more often... ;^)

It makes no sense to me. My understanding of the thread title is that "Western Stupidity" is a systemic problem... So... why do you refer to critical postulators that discuss and promote (perhaps) antiquated ideals of individual freedom? Seems you're wagging the dog here, Amos...
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 03:50 AM

Thanks, Little Hawk, the first and second paragraphs of your post of 14th June (11:39 PM), gave me the best laugh I've had this week. Particularly liked the "inalienable responsibility" concept - hilarious.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 04:54 AM

Unless all countries in the world bring in some form of birth control things will get worse. The more people there are the less there is to go round, with the inevitable shortages, famines, and wars. The real stupidity is the failure to recognise this undenyable fact. As acts of compassion and humanity we help people have clean water to drink, we innoculate them against diseases which for years have killed their kith and kin. What happens then is more people survive, more resources are needed, more wars are fought over water, or oil, and more people are killed. Makes you wonder if it was worth saving them in the first place.
Stupidity is not just a western disease, we just seem to be better at being stupid than others.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 05:38 AM

John 'Giok' MacKenzie 15 Jun 04 - 04:54 AM,

Some good points there, a few of them had crossed my mind before in relation to the Iraquois "Guardian of Seven Generations" thing brought up earlier in the thread.

The points you raise would be reviewed and the hammer would come down firmly on the side of doing nothing, i.e. mirror nature, if you get injured, or sick - you die.

Burgeoning male population - review the situation - have a war, go raiding, either your people won and took over that lump of territory, or they died in the attempt. No real interest in the result, as either way, the problem was solved (an alternative solution taken up by Chiefs of African tribes on the west coast of Africa, that was often taken up was to sell the excess population into slavery).

Aye, magnificent times, and communities, to live in. Now hands up all those who are willing, and honest enough, to admit that they are just a little bit pleased that we're as stupid as we are.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 10:24 AM

I am missing something in both Teribus' and TTR's postings.

Teribus -- is it your intention to imply that tribal war- and raiding was a smarter way of life? Your post is a little dense somehow.

TTR...I don't understand your point aboutr wagging the dog? I was speaking about your assertion that basic physical needs should be filled as a universal human right. What about that was wagging what dog??

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 11:30 AM

My apologies Amos,

My post has to be read in conjunction with two others, the one, in this thread by John 'Goik' MacKenzie, in which he identifies the problem of over-population, and another in the thread "BS: Does it make sense to you that...." where the following was mentioned:

"The Great Law of the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy contained this advice: 'In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decision on the next seven generations.' We are stewards; we are caretakers. That standard will keep us great."

I think it was CarolC in that particular thread who said that this principle was extended to include the impact on every living creature for the next seven generations.

When you put the two together, my point was that if you did consider the impact of your every action over the course of seven generations, the overwhelming instinct would be to keep things a near as possible to what they are - sort of acts as a disincentive to progress.

Not advocating it as a way of life, in any way, shape, or form. But then again I do not subscribe to the belief that "we" in the "West" are stupid, at least not any more stupid than people living in any other part of the planet. More masters of our own destiny maybe, not being shackled by either religion, tribalism, or totalitarianism.

Once again my apologies for jumping between threads, it was not my intent to confuse the issue.

T.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 11:39 AM

That clarifies it, thanks. I concur that we are masters of our destiny to a greater degree than many others, who ar emore constrained by tribalism or by religion, or by totalitarianism. These are the very reasons for which I protest against the trend toward tribal, religious and totalitarian polemic from the Cheney camp.

We may be no stupider--even smarter-- than some others, materially. But why are we not smarter at managing human connections? Individual spiritual well-being? Defusing stress and neurosis? Healing psychotic impulses in the individual?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 11:52 AM

Well, teribus, I gather you have never lived in a genuinely cooperative community with a membership who cared about each other and were mutually responsible, eh? :-) Too bad. I think the experience would radically alter your view of the matter.

You cannot get away with shirking responsibility or behaving anti-socially in such a cooperative community, teribus, but you can always leave if you like. Regular society is too big and extended to provide such options...as there is apparently no place to leave to. I say, apparently. Appearances may be very deceiving in this case. As a matter of fact, there are places to leave to, but the average person is too unaware to the possibilities to even suspect that there are, so he/she is trapped in the greater society by default, as it were...

In my opinion, you're a guy who lives under cultural barbarianism but is entirely used to it, takes it for granted, and is unaware that there are any real alternatives to it. Therefore what I talk about strikes you as entirely airy-fairy, impossible, and mythological. It isn't. I've experienced it firsthand and I KNOW of what I am speaking.

It's the same thing that is experienced in any truly healthy and mature family with elders who have enough wisdom to create such a family life...mutual caring for all members, mutual assistance, mutual responsibility.

It is more important to be something, teribus, than to just know about it intellectually and be able to talk about it cleverly.

You seem to believe that life is necessarily brutal and competitive at a certain basic survival level. I don't. I aim higher than that. What do you believe in, teribus, other than mere physical and egoic survival? Are you anything other than a highly articulate animal with a big vocabulary? Do you aspire to be anything other than that?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 01:37 PM

Amos, are you SURE you are not a pseudo-liberal? Your post: June 14, 2004 -10:57 P.M., it appears to me that you may be a conservative and just not be aware of it! A true liberal, in a similar predicament, would surely have expected that the government (read President)find you a job, provide you a place to stay, and food to eat! I'm beginning to wonder. :>)

No further comment on the title of the thread because, like Teribus, I don't think the West is stupid as I stated in an earlier thread. I might agree, however, that the West is certainly inhabitited by an awful lot of people who love to talk about it as though it were.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 03:02 PM

I prefer to think of myself as an independent thinker where possible, Doug. Anyway, I like your point about the distinction. I would be careful of confusing liberalism with socialism. The best liberalism brings out the best production and self-reliance in people. The West is not inherently stupid, but the history of gaffes, blunders, chaotic slaughters and random oppressions is pretty hard to defend. The history of accomplishments and positive acts is easy to defend, iof course.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 08:58 PM

Well, the West is both stupid...and brilliantly creative and capable. Just depends on what aspect one chooses to focus on, that's all. You could say the same of India or China, I suppose, although they are very different from the West.

I heard that Chinese currency is at present grossly undervalued...which is causing them to take over the consumer goods market and gobble up the World's raw materials while doing so. Watch for a big shakeup when that particular bubble bursts, as it must eventually.

The Japanese suffered such a shakeup some time ago, and it hurt them very badly. That's when the business started to shift to Korea, China, and the rest of the Asian rim. What worries me about those countries is they're going right ahead and making all the same ecological mistakes we already made...and then some. What will happen when a hundred million Chinese start driving gasoline engined cars? Not good.

I keep hoping the aliens will come down and take over first. (joking!)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 12:20 AM

Of course we cannot deny other countries the opportunity to pollute. We set the standard and they want it too. Thats why the West is so stupid. We have the opportunity to serve as role models but what are we doing? We are showing them that to modernize, the environment must suffer. Its a heavy price.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:54 AM

Ever try to tell your kids not to do something, because you did the same when you were young, and it didn't work out?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Frankham
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:17 AM

I want to thank you Amos for the thread. Yes, the West can be construed to be monumentally stupid when it comes to foreign policy.
Iraq being a case in point.

But the thread has to be general of course.

Little Hawk, I agree with your prescriptions for a better society.

One basic problem is ideological entrenchment. This would be a bull-headed notion that one-size-fits-all when it comes to dimplistic solutions to problems. The West has always been low-context. There has been a penchant to easy answers.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM

You know, it is very hard to say, but it is possible that a significant per cent of the apparent stupidity is induced by media.

Not all of it, of course. Just for example, what if we had thought through the issue of relating to American Indians and establishing alliances from the beginning, that we then treated honorably? History would have been incredibly different, and arguably better, although it is impossible to assess how much the long tradition of warring tribes would have affected things. IF the Spanish had been less fixated on gold and the aggrandizement of the Catholic Church, what a civilization they could have built from Santa Barbara clear South to Chile!

Anyway, that's all in th epast, but it does indicate some areas of stupidity about human groups and organizations.

Frank, thanks again for your thoughtful contributions.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:08 PM

"...and some thought even moving out of the trees was a bad move."-- Douglas Adams on "modern" humanity


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:13 PM

Terribus, I think you will find the impetous behind the gathering of slaves by tribal leaders in West Africa was not to thin out overpopulated areas but purely financial, it was the same all over Africa. Try reading "slave trade" by Hugh Thomas for a complete picture, its quite enlightning.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM

We've imported stupidity from every country in the world and certainly put it to use. The sad thing is that the countries that have supplied us, kept a plenty on hand. This one resource the world seems to have in ample supply.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:00 PM

The impetus behind most destructive policies is purely financial. :-)

For instance, people do not deal drugs because they want to share and share alike, and give everyone a nice high. :-) They don't do it because they think drugs are a great thing for people or society. They do it to make a whole lot of money fast, in a way that seems easier and more agreeable to them than normal work. They are opportunistic. The drug laws assist them tremendously in that endeavour...except when they get caught. Most of them don't.

That's why people invade countries too. They're after control of land and resources, which allows them financial supremacy, which gives them control over just about everything material in this World that you can name.

But not control over my mind or soul...or yours either, unless you allow it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:56 PM

That's a compelling idea!! Let's import stupidity from others!!!!

How does that work, actually?!! Don't we have to set up a complete failure of responsibility in our own minds before we can import someone else's stupidity?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:10 PM

I guess what could be done in that direction would be this: allow immigration into the USA by the dregs of international society, namely: the idle rich, corrupt crime bosses and their helpers, criminals and malcontents, etc.

This has actually been done at times, specially with regard to Cuban expatriates (although I would certainly not want to tar all Cuban exiles with that brush!). Ever seen the movie "Scarface"? A very significant criminal element departed Cuba in the 60's and settled in Florida. Florida now has an extraordinary crime rate, while Cuba has a very low one. I was there. I saw how safe and friendly the streets are at night in Cardenas. I was also in Trinidad...which is not socialist. If you're smart you do NOT go out after dark much in Trinidad. It has a tremendous violent crime rate. It also has a lot more cops on the street than in Cuba...and the cops are notoriously corrupt and untrustworthy themselves. People avoid them.

Odd, isn't it? :-) Looks like providing people with a relatively good social safety net is a good idea. Poverty, gross material inequality, and social desperation are the wellsprings of crime in the streets...whether in Florida or in Trinidad.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Firegod
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:25 PM

It's not just "Western stupidity" it is human stupidity!

The sum of the intelligence of the human race is finite. Divide finite intelligence by increasing population and the result is decreased intelligence per population member. This explains part of it. The remainder is easily explained by the principles of entropy -the natural tendency of all physical systems to tend towards disorder. The longer time goes on the more disorder results. (The first is somewhat facetious - the second a proven principle of physics)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:42 PM

Importing stupidity is no more far fetched than buying permits to pollute the atmosphere of the world we all share, which is what is proposed as part of the Kyoto Agreement, which the US refuses to sign. How stupid is that?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM

To the contrary, Firegod -- if you posit an increasing population, you are simultaneously positing an increase in the ability of the species to view, compare viewpoints, explore new data and analyze it. This means directly increasing the "sum"--if there is such a thing--of human intelligence.

Giok: IIRC, the agreement is to limit the pollution to a fixed amount, with the shares being a way to balance who produces what portion of it, in declining steps over time. It is not a scheme to promote pollution but to reduce it!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:11 PM

What it will mean Amos is that those with the most money to buy the most permits, will produce the most pollution. Who do you think will be able to afford the most permits? It will give countries with no assets at present something to sell, and they will sell those permits, and in so doing gain money in the short term, and stifle their own development in the long term.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:44 PM

Fighting structure fires carries with it certain risks. Older buildings have a greater structural integrity than do modern buildings. So, we study building construction (amongst other things).

The new 'let's build it fast and cheap' philosophy to do with many buildings has substantially increased the risk we face when we enter those types of buildings. The 'joists' holding up floors can burn--a single burnt-through joist can cause the whole floor to collapse. Older buildings can have a few burnt through and still provide a floor that doesn't collapse. (And keep in mind that one man's floor can be another man's ceiling. So, what's this about? Funny you should ask.

What happens anywhere in our world today will impact what is happening elsewhere in our world today. In older times, the impact of change in one place would travel more slowly than it does today. I guess what I'm saying is that there are no longer any 'little' pollutions. We are reaching the point of no return from which the human race may not be able to recover in its lifetime.

How many joists you think we got left, and isn't our world and aren't our children worth fighting for?

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:17 AM

Little Hawk - 15 Jun 04 - 11:52 AM

You gather wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:38 PM

To answer the question posed by the statement-title of this thread, I think it is alcohol. If you ever saw Blazing Saddles, almost all the stupidity was caused by alcohol or beans. Beans just make ya gassy, so it must have been the booze. That's what I think, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:14 PM

Brucie, you might even be a genius!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:29 PM

Why, thank you, Amos. As you can see, I like to contribute to serious philosophical discussions. However, my natural modesty prohibits me from agreeing with you. I wish to be known as a simple, common, ordinary, average, every-day, garden-variety saviour of North America's destiny. (That is paraphrased from something Pat Paulsen (sp?) said in the late '60s.) BG.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:38 PM

"The Great Law of the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy contained this advice: 'In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decision on the next seven generations.' We are stewards; we are caretakers. That standard will keep us great."

I think it was CarolC in that particular thread who said that this principle was extended to include the impact on every living creature for the next seven generations.

When you put the two together, my point was that if you did consider the impact of your every action over the course of seven generations, the overwhelming instinct would be to keep things a near as possible to what they are - sort of acts as a disincentive to progress.


I don't agree with this interpretation of my words or of the Seven Generations philosophy at all. In the first place, the operative word is "impact". This doesn't mean that one should never do anything that might cause any harm to any living creature, ever. But it does mean that since all of nature is a very complicated and interconnected web, it isn't possible for us to do things that disrupt that web without causing some kind of disruption of our own way of life.

So in order to be able to keep this planet, which is a closed system, viable for supporting human life, we need to consider whether or not our actions support that system, or undermine that system, in the long run (seven generations).

And that is where my suggestion that hubris is a big part of "western stupidity" comes in. To think that we can do anything we want to a system as complicated and interconnected as this one is, without suffering any consequences in the long run, is, in my opinion, the height of hubris. Damn the icebergs, full speed ahead!!! ( ...says the Captain of the Titanic)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 11:42 PM

I've known women like you too, Teribus...

"Remember what you said to me on the 15th of June, 2003 at 6:31 pm, you stupid jerk?" :-)

"Um...well...um...no, I..." (then they really get mad)

Well, I'd look it up and then argue with you some more tonight, but it's late. How about we just say you're right and save us both some energy? Heh! It's supposed to be patriotic to save energy these days, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:48 AM

All you had to do was click on your own post in this thread - which I would have thought was not too difficult a task - but no matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 10:41 AM

Basically, LH, what Teribus is saying to you is that he has lived in a commune.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:21 PM

Not a commune CarolC, but I did live in a genuinely co-operative community with a membership who cared about each other and were mutually responsible, where it was impossible to get away with shirking responsibility or behaving anti-socially. I lived in a number of such co-operative communities, in various guises, for over 15 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:27 PM

Yes, I see. It was too late last night, and I was in a somewhat sarcastic and rascally mood.

I just don't see, teribus, what you found so funny about what I said on, let's see...hang on...

my post of 14th June (11:39 PM)

"I agree absolutely with Bruce and with Thomas the Rhymer on this one. And along with those inalienable rights (to food, clothing, shelter, education, and good medical care) comes an inalienable responsibility...to contribute usefully to that society in whatever way you are well suited to and to do your part in sustaining it. In this way you return something for the good things that you are receiving.

That is exactly how a good ashram or cooperative community works, and I've stayed at a couple. I believe it's pretty much how a kibbutz works too, if I'm not mistaken."

My choice of words (inalienable) may have been a little offbeat, but what I was saying was simply this: In any healthy family or community there are 2 sets of balancing considerations.

1. The community protects you on a certain basic level. I consider that level to include legal rights and protections, a coherent moral code of behaviour, having enough food, shelter, and basic necessities, having medical care when you need it, receiving an education when you're young that allows you to participate effectively.

2. You do your bit by contributing something useful back to the community, in whatever way your own talents and abilities make possible.

That's normal give and take. I have found it to be set up most equitably in some spiritually-centred communities I've visited, because the general attitude of moral responsibility was a lot keener there than in the mainstream society.

Where do you have a problem with that? Or do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:27 PM

Were the communities to which you refer a part of the UK military by any chance, Teribus?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:39 PM

I think this is the core of the issue: the culture(s) of the West have tried to marry freedom while estranging truth.

FREEDOM

Truth produces freedom because truth is freedom.

                      Science of Mind

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM

They have confused "freedom" with total lack of responsibility, compassion, empathy or accountability.

Adam Smith thought that if everyone did what was "good for him", everything would get better in society. Wrong! It works this way: If everyone does what is good for him AND everyone else...THEN everything gets better.

Immature people can only see what is good for them alone and they do not see (or care about) what is good for others. By that oversight they end up screwing things up, first for others, ultimately for themselves.

Al Capone was a classic example of that. He died of syphilis, alone and despised, in a prison cell. That was the end result of a lifetime of "looking out for number one" with total disregard toward anyone else.

The corporate ethic is based on the same essential premise as the one Al Capone was working from...and with rather similar results. Waste, suffering, greed, lying, manipulation, fraud, violence, destruction, hatred, despair. That is where total egocentricity takes a person or a system.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 12:34 PM

In America if there is social justice and equal economic opportunity the society will prosper.

The effort to undo the New Deal and opt for a police state complete with privately run prisons is stupid to say the least.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 12:52 PM

The missing link, LH, is that in truth one's survival is benefited to the degree we all survive better. Being hammered into a "me versus the world" attitude is not truthful. It may be popular, though; it short-sightedly places one at odds with his/her environment, which is mostly made up of humans.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM

Freedom to do what?
Freedom from what?
Freedom from responsibilities is different from freedom to be irresponsible.
Freedom from responsibility for yourself does not negate your responsibility for the consequence of your actions on others!
Etc.
G..


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM

You are so right, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM

2 - flippin' hundrde!!! 200! Awwright! I rate. I am the best. Bow down and worship me, eh?

- BDibR (Shane)


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