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BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity

Amos 12 Nov 05 - 09:12 PM
Seiri Omaar 04 Oct 05 - 08:03 AM
Amos 03 Oct 05 - 10:33 PM
Peace 03 Oct 05 - 09:38 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 05 - 09:29 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 05 - 09:15 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 05 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 03 Oct 05 - 03:53 PM
Seiri Omaar 03 Oct 05 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 03 Oct 05 - 12:39 PM
Seiri Omaar 03 Oct 05 - 09:49 AM
Amos 03 Oct 05 - 12:01 AM
Seiri Omaar 02 Oct 05 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 02 Oct 05 - 11:29 PM
Amos 01 Oct 05 - 11:43 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 05 - 09:55 PM
jpk 12 Aug 05 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 12 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM
John MacKenzie 12 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM
Amos 12 Aug 05 - 12:52 PM
Donuel 12 Aug 05 - 12:34 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM
Amos 11 Aug 05 - 11:39 PM
CarolC 22 Jun 04 - 01:27 PM
Little Hawk 22 Jun 04 - 12:27 PM
Teribus 22 Jun 04 - 12:21 PM
CarolC 22 Jun 04 - 10:41 AM
Teribus 22 Jun 04 - 02:48 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jun 04 - 11:42 PM
CarolC 21 Jun 04 - 08:38 PM
Peace 21 Jun 04 - 08:29 PM
Amos 21 Jun 04 - 08:14 PM
Peace 21 Jun 04 - 07:38 PM
Teribus 21 Jun 04 - 07:17 AM
Peace 19 Jun 04 - 04:44 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Jun 04 - 05:11 PM
Amos 18 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Jun 04 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,Firegod 18 Jun 04 - 04:25 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jun 04 - 02:10 PM
Amos 16 Jun 04 - 11:56 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jun 04 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,Arkie 16 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 04 - 01:13 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 04 - 01:08 PM
Amos 16 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM
Frankham 16 Jun 04 - 11:17 AM
John MacKenzie 16 Jun 04 - 03:54 AM
dianavan 16 Jun 04 - 12:20 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 09:12 PM

A recent commentary deserves inclusion here:

"Greetings from Idiot America

by Charles Pierce
Nov 01 '05
Esquire Magazine, by way of index.cgi?board=theo&action=print&thread=1130126466>

...

The rise of Idiot America is essentially a war on expertise. It's not
so much antimodernism or the distrust of intellectual elites that
Richard Hofstadter deftly teased out of the national DNA forty years
ago. Both of those things are part of it. However, the rise of Idiot
America today represents—for profit mainly, but also, and more
cynically, for political advantage and in the pursuit of power—the
breakdown of a consensus that the pursuit of knowledge is a good. It
also represents the ascendancy of the notion that the people whom we
should trust the least are the people who best know what they're
talking about. In the new media age, everybody is a historian, or a
preacher, or a scientist, or a sage. And if everyone is an expert,
then nobody is, and the worst thing you can be in a society where
everybody is an expert is, well, an actual expert.

In the place of expertise, we have elevated the Gut, and the Gut is a
moron, as anyone who has ever tossed a golf club, punched a wall, or
kicked an errant lawn mower knows. We occasionally dress up the Gut
by calling it "common sense." The president's former advisor on
medical ethics regularly refers to the "yuck factor." The Gut is
common. It is democratic. It is the roiling repository of dark and
ancient fears. Worst of all, the Gut is faith-based.

It's a dishonest phrase for a dishonest time, "faith-based," a cheap
huckster's phony term of art. It sounds like an additive, an
artificial flavoring to make crude biases taste of bread and wine.
It's a word for people without the courage to say they are religious,
and it is beloved not only by politicians too cowardly to debate
something as substantial as faith but also by Idiot America, which is
too lazy to do it.

After all, faith is about the heart and soul and about transcendence.
Anything calling itself faith-based is admitting that it is secular
and profane. In the way that it relies on the Gut to determine its
science, its politics, and even the way it sends its people to war,
Idiot America is not a country of faith; it's a faith-based country,
fashioning itself in the world, which is not the place where faith is
best fashioned.

...

How does it work? This is how it works. On August 21, a newspaper
account of the "intelligent design" movement contained this
remarkable sentence: "They have mounted a politically savvy challenge
to evolution as the bedrock of modern biology, propelling a fringe
academic movement onto the front pages and putting Darwin's defenders
firmly on the defensive."

A "politically savvy challenge to evolution" is as self-evidently
ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry
would be. It makes as much sense as conducting a Gallup poll on
gravity or running someone for president on the Alchemy Party ticket.
It doesn't matter what percentage of people believe they ought to be
able to flap their arms and fly, none of them can. It doesn't matter
how many votes your candidate got, he's not going to turn lead into
gold. The sentence is so arrantly foolish that the only real news in
it is where it appeared.

On the front page.

Of The New York Times."




Yeah...media-whirl makes idiots of us all, no matter which end of the counter we sit at.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:03 AM

Otherwise, we just bring out the mallet.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:33 PM

Rarelamb:

I think you might do well to go to the beginning of the thread and see the questions on which it was based.

Even Libertarians do not understand human nature well enough to remedy depression, hostility, and the bizarre patterns of power flowing to idiots who then abuse it.

If you really think all is well with Western civilization, you might want to clear up the word "civilization". I am reminded of Gandhi's remark about Western civilization -- "I think it would be a very good idea!".

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:38 PM

"fundamental misunderstandings of economics"

1) Money has value
2) Money doesn't have value

That about sums it up for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:29 PM

it's SO hard to explain to some


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:15 PM

more

yet again


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:05 PM

to promote understanding

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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:53 PM

I posted that I do not understand what is stupid about western civ. The post is labelled "The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity". It's hard to determine the cause if we do not have a common agreement on what is understood to be 'stupid'.

I also, commented on a few points on posts made that have fundamental misunderstandings of economics.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:44 PM

... and somehow I fail to see the point of that post and how it relates to the topic at hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:39 PM

Well, I had to bite. I just finished reading this post and I have a pretty basic question. In what way is western civilization stupid?

I ask this because there seem to be some rather faulty thinking being espoused by the 'spiritualist', socialists and communitarians on this thread.

Let start off with what money is. In modern times, we use a fiat monetary system. Where as at one point it was backed by precious metals it currently can not be 'redeemed' for anything. So then what is money? Money is a unit of measure. It represents an interchangeable unit. It represents time, values and worth. When you are talking about money you are talking about what people value or rather their values.

How much is an hour of your time worth? How much would you pay for xyz? what is the value of life? All of these things can be measured by money. You can derive this value from either the exchange traded value or by measuring indifference curves but regardless, what a society spends on is what it values.

I am not surprised by the modern day malthusians that seem to populate these discussions. I will put forward that we will never run out of 'space' nor will we ever run out of oil. And it is a fallacy that somehow the native americans (western hemisphere) were a group of animal loving communitarians. They fought wars just like they did in the west. And they 'managed' their environment with regular fires to maintain their lifestyles.


Like so much else, from each according to his ability to each according to his need is fundamentally flawed. Who determines and how is this to be determined? What is the fair 'price'?

Come and join me in the dark side of libertarians. The only thing you have to lose are your chains. =)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:49 AM

Not really much difference. Those aspects in our esteemed race cause what we can define as "stupid behaviour", coupled along with the evolution of our particular society. Obsession with material goods and individuality (which I am not saying is a bad thing, don't get me wrong here) to the exclusion of other people can make us look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:01 AM

Seems to me those are categories of stupidity, not causes.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:48 PM

So basically, we can narrow the causes of western stupidity down to narrow-mindedness, short-sightedness, arrogance and greed? Or did I forget one there?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:29 PM

A quote from Lt. Worf on a Star Trek episode:

"Less talk. More synthehol."

I love it !!!

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:43 PM

The Laws of Human Stupidity have been isolated and are covered on this page:

http://www.mentalsoup.com/mentalsoup/basic.htm


.

They do much to clarify the question.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 09:55 PM

"a very comfortable life"

Uh-huh. And is that equivalent to being happy? Secure? Loving? Loved? Inspired? Self-aware? Fulfilled?

Nope. It isn't. It is equivalent to the life of a dog in a large and comfy pen who is happy because he's getting lots to eat every day and he has a nice bed to lie on, while other dogs starve.

The dog simply doesn't know any better. We humans don't have that excuse. We know better. Or we ought to...

The dictator you have described must be a very insecure and lonely person...a miserable person at some deeper level...or he would never have sought the position OF BEING a dictator over other people in the first place. Such seeking for power is what people do when they perceive themselves as weak, vulnerable, and thoroughly lacking in love. They live in fear. They opt for far lesser goals than living by love, and that is their tragedy. Their lives are a loud and empty bell ringing in a meaningless void.

I don't care how well they sleep at night. A totally unaware person can sleep through just about anything, because he was never awake in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: jpk
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 05:11 PM

a lot of dictatorial despots might disagree with you all,they have or they or living a very comfortable life.
the only questions being will they get the just rewards in another life.and can they sleep at night,the sleep part is easy to answer,yes,they had no ethics,morails,or honesty to start with.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM

2 - flippin' hundrde!!! 200! Awwright! I rate. I am the best. Bow down and worship me, eh?

- BDibR (Shane)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM

You are so right, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM

Freedom to do what?
Freedom from what?
Freedom from responsibilities is different from freedom to be irresponsible.
Freedom from responsibility for yourself does not negate your responsibility for the consequence of your actions on others!
Etc.
G..


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 12:52 PM

The missing link, LH, is that in truth one's survival is benefited to the degree we all survive better. Being hammered into a "me versus the world" attitude is not truthful. It may be popular, though; it short-sightedly places one at odds with his/her environment, which is mostly made up of humans.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 12:34 PM

In America if there is social justice and equal economic opportunity the society will prosper.

The effort to undo the New Deal and opt for a police state complete with privately run prisons is stupid to say the least.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM

They have confused "freedom" with total lack of responsibility, compassion, empathy or accountability.

Adam Smith thought that if everyone did what was "good for him", everything would get better in society. Wrong! It works this way: If everyone does what is good for him AND everyone else...THEN everything gets better.

Immature people can only see what is good for them alone and they do not see (or care about) what is good for others. By that oversight they end up screwing things up, first for others, ultimately for themselves.

Al Capone was a classic example of that. He died of syphilis, alone and despised, in a prison cell. That was the end result of a lifetime of "looking out for number one" with total disregard toward anyone else.

The corporate ethic is based on the same essential premise as the one Al Capone was working from...and with rather similar results. Waste, suffering, greed, lying, manipulation, fraud, violence, destruction, hatred, despair. That is where total egocentricity takes a person or a system.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:39 PM

I think this is the core of the issue: the culture(s) of the West have tried to marry freedom while estranging truth.

FREEDOM

Truth produces freedom because truth is freedom.

                      Science of Mind

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:27 PM

Were the communities to which you refer a part of the UK military by any chance, Teribus?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:27 PM

Yes, I see. It was too late last night, and I was in a somewhat sarcastic and rascally mood.

I just don't see, teribus, what you found so funny about what I said on, let's see...hang on...

my post of 14th June (11:39 PM)

"I agree absolutely with Bruce and with Thomas the Rhymer on this one. And along with those inalienable rights (to food, clothing, shelter, education, and good medical care) comes an inalienable responsibility...to contribute usefully to that society in whatever way you are well suited to and to do your part in sustaining it. In this way you return something for the good things that you are receiving.

That is exactly how a good ashram or cooperative community works, and I've stayed at a couple. I believe it's pretty much how a kibbutz works too, if I'm not mistaken."

My choice of words (inalienable) may have been a little offbeat, but what I was saying was simply this: In any healthy family or community there are 2 sets of balancing considerations.

1. The community protects you on a certain basic level. I consider that level to include legal rights and protections, a coherent moral code of behaviour, having enough food, shelter, and basic necessities, having medical care when you need it, receiving an education when you're young that allows you to participate effectively.

2. You do your bit by contributing something useful back to the community, in whatever way your own talents and abilities make possible.

That's normal give and take. I have found it to be set up most equitably in some spiritually-centred communities I've visited, because the general attitude of moral responsibility was a lot keener there than in the mainstream society.

Where do you have a problem with that? Or do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:21 PM

Not a commune CarolC, but I did live in a genuinely co-operative community with a membership who cared about each other and were mutually responsible, where it was impossible to get away with shirking responsibility or behaving anti-socially. I lived in a number of such co-operative communities, in various guises, for over 15 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 10:41 AM

Basically, LH, what Teribus is saying to you is that he has lived in a commune.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:48 AM

All you had to do was click on your own post in this thread - which I would have thought was not too difficult a task - but no matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 11:42 PM

I've known women like you too, Teribus...

"Remember what you said to me on the 15th of June, 2003 at 6:31 pm, you stupid jerk?" :-)

"Um...well...um...no, I..." (then they really get mad)

Well, I'd look it up and then argue with you some more tonight, but it's late. How about we just say you're right and save us both some energy? Heh! It's supposed to be patriotic to save energy these days, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:38 PM

"The Great Law of the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy contained this advice: 'In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decision on the next seven generations.' We are stewards; we are caretakers. That standard will keep us great."

I think it was CarolC in that particular thread who said that this principle was extended to include the impact on every living creature for the next seven generations.

When you put the two together, my point was that if you did consider the impact of your every action over the course of seven generations, the overwhelming instinct would be to keep things a near as possible to what they are - sort of acts as a disincentive to progress.


I don't agree with this interpretation of my words or of the Seven Generations philosophy at all. In the first place, the operative word is "impact". This doesn't mean that one should never do anything that might cause any harm to any living creature, ever. But it does mean that since all of nature is a very complicated and interconnected web, it isn't possible for us to do things that disrupt that web without causing some kind of disruption of our own way of life.

So in order to be able to keep this planet, which is a closed system, viable for supporting human life, we need to consider whether or not our actions support that system, or undermine that system, in the long run (seven generations).

And that is where my suggestion that hubris is a big part of "western stupidity" comes in. To think that we can do anything we want to a system as complicated and interconnected as this one is, without suffering any consequences in the long run, is, in my opinion, the height of hubris. Damn the icebergs, full speed ahead!!! ( ...says the Captain of the Titanic)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:29 PM

Why, thank you, Amos. As you can see, I like to contribute to serious philosophical discussions. However, my natural modesty prohibits me from agreeing with you. I wish to be known as a simple, common, ordinary, average, every-day, garden-variety saviour of North America's destiny. (That is paraphrased from something Pat Paulsen (sp?) said in the late '60s.) BG.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:14 PM

Brucie, you might even be a genius!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:38 PM

To answer the question posed by the statement-title of this thread, I think it is alcohol. If you ever saw Blazing Saddles, almost all the stupidity was caused by alcohol or beans. Beans just make ya gassy, so it must have been the booze. That's what I think, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:17 AM

Little Hawk - 15 Jun 04 - 11:52 AM

You gather wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:44 PM

Fighting structure fires carries with it certain risks. Older buildings have a greater structural integrity than do modern buildings. So, we study building construction (amongst other things).

The new 'let's build it fast and cheap' philosophy to do with many buildings has substantially increased the risk we face when we enter those types of buildings. The 'joists' holding up floors can burn--a single burnt-through joist can cause the whole floor to collapse. Older buildings can have a few burnt through and still provide a floor that doesn't collapse. (And keep in mind that one man's floor can be another man's ceiling. So, what's this about? Funny you should ask.

What happens anywhere in our world today will impact what is happening elsewhere in our world today. In older times, the impact of change in one place would travel more slowly than it does today. I guess what I'm saying is that there are no longer any 'little' pollutions. We are reaching the point of no return from which the human race may not be able to recover in its lifetime.

How many joists you think we got left, and isn't our world and aren't our children worth fighting for?

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:11 PM

What it will mean Amos is that those with the most money to buy the most permits, will produce the most pollution. Who do you think will be able to afford the most permits? It will give countries with no assets at present something to sell, and they will sell those permits, and in so doing gain money in the short term, and stifle their own development in the long term.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM

To the contrary, Firegod -- if you posit an increasing population, you are simultaneously positing an increase in the ability of the species to view, compare viewpoints, explore new data and analyze it. This means directly increasing the "sum"--if there is such a thing--of human intelligence.

Giok: IIRC, the agreement is to limit the pollution to a fixed amount, with the shares being a way to balance who produces what portion of it, in declining steps over time. It is not a scheme to promote pollution but to reduce it!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:42 PM

Importing stupidity is no more far fetched than buying permits to pollute the atmosphere of the world we all share, which is what is proposed as part of the Kyoto Agreement, which the US refuses to sign. How stupid is that?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Firegod
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:25 PM

It's not just "Western stupidity" it is human stupidity!

The sum of the intelligence of the human race is finite. Divide finite intelligence by increasing population and the result is decreased intelligence per population member. This explains part of it. The remainder is easily explained by the principles of entropy -the natural tendency of all physical systems to tend towards disorder. The longer time goes on the more disorder results. (The first is somewhat facetious - the second a proven principle of physics)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:10 PM

I guess what could be done in that direction would be this: allow immigration into the USA by the dregs of international society, namely: the idle rich, corrupt crime bosses and their helpers, criminals and malcontents, etc.

This has actually been done at times, specially with regard to Cuban expatriates (although I would certainly not want to tar all Cuban exiles with that brush!). Ever seen the movie "Scarface"? A very significant criminal element departed Cuba in the 60's and settled in Florida. Florida now has an extraordinary crime rate, while Cuba has a very low one. I was there. I saw how safe and friendly the streets are at night in Cardenas. I was also in Trinidad...which is not socialist. If you're smart you do NOT go out after dark much in Trinidad. It has a tremendous violent crime rate. It also has a lot more cops on the street than in Cuba...and the cops are notoriously corrupt and untrustworthy themselves. People avoid them.

Odd, isn't it? :-) Looks like providing people with a relatively good social safety net is a good idea. Poverty, gross material inequality, and social desperation are the wellsprings of crime in the streets...whether in Florida or in Trinidad.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:56 PM

That's a compelling idea!! Let's import stupidity from others!!!!

How does that work, actually?!! Don't we have to set up a complete failure of responsibility in our own minds before we can import someone else's stupidity?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:00 PM

The impetus behind most destructive policies is purely financial. :-)

For instance, people do not deal drugs because they want to share and share alike, and give everyone a nice high. :-) They don't do it because they think drugs are a great thing for people or society. They do it to make a whole lot of money fast, in a way that seems easier and more agreeable to them than normal work. They are opportunistic. The drug laws assist them tremendously in that endeavour...except when they get caught. Most of them don't.

That's why people invade countries too. They're after control of land and resources, which allows them financial supremacy, which gives them control over just about everything material in this World that you can name.

But not control over my mind or soul...or yours either, unless you allow it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM

We've imported stupidity from every country in the world and certainly put it to use. The sad thing is that the countries that have supplied us, kept a plenty on hand. This one resource the world seems to have in ample supply.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:13 PM

Terribus, I think you will find the impetous behind the gathering of slaves by tribal leaders in West Africa was not to thin out overpopulated areas but purely financial, it was the same all over Africa. Try reading "slave trade" by Hugh Thomas for a complete picture, its quite enlightning.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:08 PM

"...and some thought even moving out of the trees was a bad move."-- Douglas Adams on "modern" humanity


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM

You know, it is very hard to say, but it is possible that a significant per cent of the apparent stupidity is induced by media.

Not all of it, of course. Just for example, what if we had thought through the issue of relating to American Indians and establishing alliances from the beginning, that we then treated honorably? History would have been incredibly different, and arguably better, although it is impossible to assess how much the long tradition of warring tribes would have affected things. IF the Spanish had been less fixated on gold and the aggrandizement of the Catholic Church, what a civilization they could have built from Santa Barbara clear South to Chile!

Anyway, that's all in th epast, but it does indicate some areas of stupidity about human groups and organizations.

Frank, thanks again for your thoughtful contributions.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: Frankham
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:17 AM

I want to thank you Amos for the thread. Yes, the West can be construed to be monumentally stupid when it comes to foreign policy.
Iraq being a case in point.

But the thread has to be general of course.

Little Hawk, I agree with your prescriptions for a better society.

One basic problem is ideological entrenchment. This would be a bull-headed notion that one-size-fits-all when it comes to dimplistic solutions to problems. The West has always been low-context. There has been a penchant to easy answers.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:54 AM

Ever try to tell your kids not to do something, because you did the same when you were young, and it didn't work out?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: The Basic Causes of Western Stupidity
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 12:20 AM

Of course we cannot deny other countries the opportunity to pollute. We set the standard and they want it too. Thats why the West is so stupid. We have the opportunity to serve as role models but what are we doing? We are showing them that to modernize, the environment must suffer. Its a heavy price.


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