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BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader

Amergin 08 Jun 04 - 12:01 AM
JennyO 08 Jun 04 - 10:13 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 04 - 11:31 AM
JennyO 08 Jun 04 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,Jim Dixon 08 Jun 04 - 11:58 AM
Bill D 08 Jun 04 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Claymore 08 Jun 04 - 12:57 PM
DougR 08 Jun 04 - 04:36 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 04 - 04:47 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 04 - 06:32 PM
Peace 08 Jun 04 - 06:33 PM
Blackcatter 08 Jun 04 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Claymore 08 Jun 04 - 06:52 PM
Stilly River Sage 08 Jun 04 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Claymore 08 Jun 04 - 07:01 PM
GUEST,Claymore 08 Jun 04 - 07:09 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 04 - 08:43 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 04 - 08:53 PM
Amergin 08 Jun 04 - 09:03 PM
GUEST 08 Jun 04 - 09:07 PM
Bobert 08 Jun 04 - 09:12 PM
Blackcatter 08 Jun 04 - 09:12 PM
Peace 08 Jun 04 - 09:18 PM
Peace 08 Jun 04 - 09:22 PM
Blackcatter 08 Jun 04 - 09:24 PM
Amergin 08 Jun 04 - 09:27 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 04 - 09:33 PM
johnfitz.com 08 Jun 04 - 10:43 PM
Peace 08 Jun 04 - 10:56 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 04 - 11:13 PM
Stilly River Sage 08 Jun 04 - 11:19 PM
johnfitz.com 08 Jun 04 - 11:48 PM
johnfitz.com 09 Jun 04 - 12:17 AM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 04 - 12:36 AM
johnfitz.com 09 Jun 04 - 01:02 AM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 04 - 01:49 AM
Ellenpoly 09 Jun 04 - 03:29 AM
Greg F. 09 Jun 04 - 08:01 AM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 04 - 08:49 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Jun 04 - 09:55 AM
Amos 09 Jun 04 - 10:09 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Jun 04 - 10:18 AM
Peace 09 Jun 04 - 04:20 PM
GUEST 09 Jun 04 - 04:36 PM
Peace 09 Jun 04 - 05:12 PM
Raedwulf 09 Jun 04 - 05:39 PM
Don Firth 09 Jun 04 - 05:52 PM
Greg F. 09 Jun 04 - 06:30 PM
Don Firth 09 Jun 04 - 06:48 PM
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Subject: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:01 AM

Rockall pays tribute to Ronald Reagan
President, statesman, father, etc, etc
by Ignatius Alzheimer
The Peoples' Republic of Rockall today joins with world leaders in paying tribute to Ronald Wilson Reagan, who died last Saturday aged 193. Reagan finally succumbed to Alzheimer's Disease, having bravely fought the debilitating condition for 74 years.

Reagan — who as 40th US president led his country through two tempestuous terms — will be best remembered as the man who tirelessly fought to bring peace and democracy to Nicaragua, El Salvador and the Lebanon. Among his other achievements we can count the effective countering of the Soviet missile threat by deployment of satellite-borne laser gun technology — an astounding US technological feat for its time.

Former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher hailed Reagan "a truly great American hero" — honour indeed from the woman who admired few fellow world leaders, kindly Chilean supremo Augusto Pinochet excepted.

Other international movers-and-shakers yesterday temporarily abandoned their invasion of Normandy to add their own personal tributes. Current White House incumbent George Bush emerged from the surf at Omaha beach to say: "Ronald Reagan won America's respect with his greatness, and won its love with his goodness. He had the confidence that comes with conviction, the strength that comes with character, the grace that comes with humility, and the humour that comes with wisdom."

Further down the coast on a blood-soaked Utah beach, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger took five from assaulting a German machine-gun position to add: "I am deeply saddened by the passing of President Reagan. He was a great American patriot."

Meanwhile, UK prime minister Tony Blair, joining Prince Charles in a desperate defence of the Pegasus Bridge against a vicious counterattack by German-backed Jacques Chirac, called Reagan: "A great statesman who through the strength of his convictions and his commitment to democracy will leave a deep mark in history."

Reagan's former national security aide Lt Col Oliver North endorsed these sentiments: "Ronald Reagan was easily the greatest president of my lifetime. He brought down the Evil Empire and made the world safer for my children and theirs." Miguel D'Escoto, former foreign minister in Nicaragua's Sandinista government, enthusiastically agreed: "[He was a] fantastic president. There is not the least doubt that President Reagan did Nicaragua much good, saving many lives. He may not have had much time or inclination to reflect later on the long-term benefits to my country, but we nevertheless hope that God will reward him for his benevolence."

Ronald Wilson Reagan's road to immortality began before the American Civil War in Tampico, Ill. Reagan's amazing career encompassed radio sportscaster, a Hollywood B-movie star, soap salesman, motivational speaker, governor of California, arms dealer, freedom fighter and president.

His wisecracking oratory style enamoured Reagan to millions worldwide, with the notable exception of John Hinckley. In 1981, Hinckley attempted to assassinate the president — apparently after watching Reagan acting opposite a horse in the hilarious 1937 comedy Sergeant Murphy.

Naturally, Reagan was soon back to his pun-filled self. In 1986, he prevented the US from descending into wallowing self pity after the Challenger disaster by making his now famous "Need Another Seven Astronauts" quip during a live TV statement to the nation. He continued to entertain international leaders with his stand-up skills until late into his seventies, by which time the first outward signs of Alzheimer's had begun to erode his once-sharp mind.

Reagan's gradual decline into incomprehensibility ended in Bel Air on Saturday when he finally departed for the great ranch in the sky. He is survived by children Michael, Patti Davis and Ron, and by faithful wife Nancy. Nancy will accompany her beloved Ronald as he does one last US chat-show tour after which he will be buried with his horse, Trigger.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: JennyO
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:13 AM

LOL! I like that Ignatius Alzheimer. I needed a good laugh tonight and this was just what the doctor ordered!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:31 AM

Indeed Alzheimer's is a debilitating condition as I can confirm "first hand", my mother in-law died a very slow death over a period of 17 years. So how anyone can find any amusement (Amerigin and JennyO) in Alzheimer's I fail to see it. Suffering for both her and family can not be described.

The doctor ordered many things "a good laugh" not being one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: JennyO
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:49 AM

GUEST, I was not laughing at people with Alzheimers. Your personal experience with it has obviously made you oversensitive in that area. I was laughing at the ironical references to the things Reagan did.

Sometimes laughter IS the best medicine when you are feeling down - nothing to do with Alzheimers.

I guess considering how the rest of my day has gone, I should have expected a response like yours.

Sheesh!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:58 AM

Were it not for the byline "Ignatius Alzheimer" and other absurd details in the narrative, I might have taken that article for absolute truth. At least I would have taken the quotes as accurate. They sound exactly like what a lot of people are saying about him.

There are people who seriously want his face carved on Mount Rushmore. He already has an important airport named after him. Watch out for more in the coming months.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:48 PM

The most fitting tribute to that great leader is what his funeral will treat the Washington D.C. area to.....5 days of chaos, traffic nightmares and bewilderment. It proves the old boy ain't lost his touch!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:57 PM

(It would take an idiot not to know that Trigger was Roy Rodgers horse ;)

He was amongst the giants of our age, and with those giants he changed our era.

With Thatcher he destroyed socialism.

With Gorbachev he destroyed communism.

He drove the limousine liberals out of their cars and into the light of public scrutiny, and the public rejected them out of hand.

Though an avowed conservative, he led from the middle as a pragmatist.

He gave me my country back...


(And if you don't think his death will move the great middle towards George W., watch the comparisons they are making between them on the cable "talking heads" shows.)


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:36 PM

Claymore: I think you may be right.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:47 PM

"gave me my country back".

That is laying it on a bit thick isn't it?   Aside from making a cliched statement, can you tell me exactly how and what he did to accomplish that? I mean concrete examples of how it effected you personally, not some pie in the sky statment about how he supposedly destroyed socialism and communism.   I don't mean this as a joke, I am asking as a citizen of the United States to another citizen, how was your life permanently effected by his presidency.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:32 PM

Don't hold your breath waiting, Ron. He's probably busy setting those trip-wires he's so fond of.

Total bombast & bullshit. Sounds like someone else may be in the throes of a degenerative brain disease.

By the way- who was it initially took Landmine's country, what country was it, and where was it hidden away in the interim?

PS: It would take an idiot not to know that Roy's last name is spellede "Rogers".


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:33 PM

Hell, the USA got into an arms race with Russia and literally forced the old USSR to spend itself into oblivion trying to keep up. Had little to do directly with RR.

I am glad he gave you your country back. Is it still yours?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Blackcatter
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:40 PM

I consider the Bahamas to be more concerned with my well-being that the U.S.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:52 PM

I don't know if you are old enough to remember him but in 1981, Carter's ineptness had driven house interest rates to 21%, his inability to correctly utilize the military had resulted in the Debacle in the Desert, with Iran still holding our ambassador and his staff for 444 days, and Carter had publically stated that our best days were behind us and that we would just have to get used to it.

As a former Marine Corps officer in Vietnam (1969) and a police officer at the time, I had watched our country desinagrate into chaos, perhaps typified by the woman on the street who was stopped by the TV cameras right after the failed hostage rescue attempt, and sobbed into the camera "Can't we do anything right?" The Democrats had ruined the country, controlling all the legislature for over forty years. Taxes were set at over 28% for incomes under $15,000 (they are now less than 15%) and far higher for greater incomes. The farmers of the American Agricultural movement had driven to DC in their tractors, laying waste to my county on the way, and had rioted on the mall of the Capitol. The Country was literally in a stall.

Then came Reagan, and, as any almost any reading of any newspaper in the world during the last couple of days will inform you, the rest, God love him, is history.

My tax situation improved almost immediately, I was able to refinace my house. When the greedy bastards at PATCO struck (with the center of the strike in Leesburg, VA, where I was a Sgt on the force) he fired them. When the Marines were bombed at Kobar, he immediately took full respondsibility, and three days later invaded Grenada. The military, which had been allowed to decline, began to improve (I was then a Captain of Marines in the Reserves). People began to assume responsibility for their actions and the courts convicted the guilty without excuse. When he found out about Oliver North (who had served with me in Vietnam) he immediately had his Attorney General make instant release, long before any newspaper had a clue as to the situation. (Which brings the question, when will the papers get around to asking John Kerry why he voted for the Boland Amendment?)

Now you may quibble about the above, but when he asked the ENTIRE country "Are you better off now than you were four years ago", every state in the Union, including the Territories and with the exception of Minnesota and DC, answered "YES". I rest my case...


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:58 PM

No surprises that Claymore and DougR agree on this.

Reagan gave the country to the wealthy and the associated industrial complex. He opened wide the doors of the savings and loans and let his carpetbagger friends in. Have all of the trials and appeals finally concluded? His old pal Richard Scaife was responsible for hounding Bill Clinton on trumped up charges for eight years of his presidency. Reagan had a Hollywood charsima that allowed him to BS his way through many issues and trample the average American and abandon the poor. George Bush Sr. was his heir apparent but didn't have the delivery to keep the message going, so he was out after one term. How on earth his pedantic son got elected--oh, wait, I forgot--he wasn't elected, he lost, he was appointed by the Supreme Court--well, he'll be a one-term president also.

I wouldn't wish aldzheimers on my worst enemy, but no tears are shed over the death of this man who set America back 75 years by his presence in the White House.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:01 PM

Well Greg, you can release your breath and using what little of the sense you have left, allow me to correct your correction of SPELLEDE.

brucie, it's funny that the Democrats blamed Reagan for the arms race, and since they could never be wrong in your view, you have MADE MY CASE. Thanks old chap.

And Blackcatter, I assume you'll move to the Bahamas as soon as your visa arrives?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:09 PM

Stilly the worst excesses of Enron occured during the Clinton years, as did most of the other scandles involving excessive wealth. And Clinton claimed credit for it.

And if you are so exercised about Scaife, could you Google "George Soros" and tell me the difference...


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:43 PM

It takes a certain minimal level of intelligence, I'm told, to understand and appreciate irony &/or satire...


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:53 PM

Claymore, the "excesses" of Enron may have occured during the Clinton years, but if you remember, the S&L scandals actually began during the Reagan years.   Scandals? How many members of Clinton's cabinet and administration were indicted compared to the extraordinary number during Reagans?

I will give Reagan credit for admiting his mistakes, something that the current clown in the White House would never do. Reagan gave a speech where he catagorically denied that arms were sold for hostages. When it became evident that they were, he admited that he was wrong. He never admitted his involvement, but he was forthcoming with an apology.

I had asked you to give examples of how life improved for you and you mentioned that your tax situation improved.   I am glad it worked for you, but he increased taxes on social security and Medicare so I assume that you weren't effect by that. Many others were. The poor suffered. Reagan's policies led to increases in food prices and inflation. Do you remember the huge deficit he left? That short burst of economic freedom(for some) ended up being paid for by us all.

You mention the shame that Carter supposedly brought on this countries military. Of course the ambassador and his staff survived the 444 days in captivity, which happened to be extended due to some dealings from the incoming administration. Remember the October Surprisse??

I could not possibly justify Carter's efforts either. Unlike conservatives, we will admit when our presidents have faults. Also, I did not feel as disgraced by our country as you seemed to be. A few sound bites on TV did not sway my opinion as easily as it appears to have swayed yours and your kind. Carter did try to make Human Rights the centerpiece of his administration while supporting some brutal regimes around the world.   However, Reagan was the one who sold anti-tank and anti-aircraft missles to Iran in order to secure the release of several hostages that were being held in Lebanon. The proceeds of that sale was given to death squads in Nicaragua.   If I remember correctly, Congress forbade such dealings. This is a man you are proud of???

You remembered the PATCO strike, but do you remeber 400,000 union members marching on Washington to protest Reagan's labor policies? Probably not.

Of course, Reagan probably convinced you that tomatoes are vegetables, the homeless were merely living by choice (after he shut down VA hospitals and denied benefits)and who knows what else.

The bottom line is that conservatives will spin any story to justify their case. The facts are only secondary.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:03 PM

I thought that catsup was a vegetable....


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:07 PM

Can't wait for the day when corrupt conservatives are forced into the light of dsy! There'll be a revolution when Americans finally wake up from the trance.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:12 PM

Throw in an illegal war waged by a President after Congress said "No", the many calls for Reagun's impeachment over it, the "Death Squads" in Guatemala and Salvador and I'm wondering just which Ronald Reagan all these folks are now waiting in line to worship. He was totally fiscally irresponsible.

I was wroking for the Department of Social Services during the Reagan years I was on the front lines working with the menatloly ill and the eldery poor. Title XX funds were cut to the bone and then some... I saw the suffering... Yeah, Reagan could sure get all weepy eyed about some gunner in WWII just so long as the dtory followed a familiar script. Problem is that real human suffering from his deep cuts in socail services just didn't faze hi at all. He was aloof to the real world...

And now the Repubs are busy trying to mold the current president into the Reagan mold. Well, when it come to a deep *dis*compassion for the working class and the working poor the current guy certainly keep up with Reagan's, no doubt about it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Blackcatter
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:12 PM

I don't know if you are old enough to remember him but in 1981, Carter's ineptness had driven house interest rates to 21%, his inability to correctly utilize the military had resulted in the Debacle in the Desert, with Iran still holding our ambassador and his staff for 444 days, and Carter had publically stated that our best days were behind us and that we would just have to get used to it.

Reagan and his cronies conspired with the Iranians to keep the hostages there so he could win the election. How is that Carter's fault?

As a former Marine Corps officer in Vietnam (1969) and a police officer at the time, I had watched our country desinagrate into chaos, perhaps typified by the woman on the street who was stopped by the TV cameras right after the failed hostage rescue attempt, and sobbed into the camera "Can't we do anything right?"

Sounds like a bunch of military minds with their heads up their asses - maybe you had a part in that?

The Democrats had ruined the country, controlling all the legislature for over forty years. Taxes were set at over 28% for incomes under $15,000 (they are now less than 15%) and far higher for greater incomes. The farmers of the American Agricultural movement had driven to DC in their tractors, laying waste to my county on the way, and had rioted on the mall of the Capitol. The Country was literally in a stall.

Those farmers were being bought out by huge conglomarates that were aided by Republicans. Over all the taxes (and not just income taxes) increased across the board in the 8 years of Reagan reign. And even though he campaigned on balancing the budget, Reagan never even came close to submitting one. Fuckin' liar.

Then came Reagan, and, as any almost any reading of any newspaper in the world during the last couple of days will inform you, the rest, God love him, is history.

Yes, let us all believe the sophistry of the press. The press isn't in the pockets of the conservatives or the liberals - they're in the pockets of the millionaires who own the companies and who are willing to prostitute themselves to make more money. The press are whores. You pay them - you're a John.

My tax situation improved almost immediately, I was able to refinace my house.

Congratulations - I'm so glad you speak for 200 million people - you probably think you're "down with the negroes" in the ghettos too.

When the greedy bastards at PATCO struck (with the center of the strike in Leesburg, VA, where I was a Sgt on the force) he fired them.

Nice to see you're anti-labor - Maybe if you have ever done something as hard as being an air-traffic controller, you might change your tune.

When the Marines were bombed at Kobar, he immediately took full respondsibility, and three days later invaded Grenada. The military, which had been allowed to decline, began to improve (I was then a Captain of Marines in the Reserves).

Gee, a Marine - so that explains all this. Yes - the best thing to do when you screw up militarily, is attack a completely different place to rescue stoned med students (Claymore, do you read this stuff as you're writing or is it more like when you vomit - you don't care what came out, you're just glad for the relief).

People began to assume responsibility for their actions and the courts convicted the guilty without excuse. When he found out about Oliver North (who had served with me in Vietnam) he immediately had his Attorney General make instant release, long before any newspaper had a clue as to the situation. (Which brings the question, when will the papers get around to asking John Kerry why he voted for the Boland Amendment?)

OK - you got me there - more vomit, I guess cause I don't know what the hell you're saying. Oh wait - you say people assumed responsibility for things - why not have the idiots who tried that rescue mission in Iran do so? By the way - ever broken a law and NOT assumed responsibility?

Now you may quibble about the above, but when he asked the ENTIRE country "Are you better off now than you were four years ago", every state in the Union, including the Territories and with the exception of Minnesota and DC, answered "YES". I rest my case...

Yep - the general public is pro popularity contests. They're stupid. and believe lies when told by a nearly brain dead hack actor. You're the best example of that. Isn't it nice to know that you're good at at least one thing?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:18 PM

Claymore: As much as I enjoyed your answer to my question, and I did think the answer was good, yes I am old enough to remember 1981. I was 34 at the time. However, you can take your residual attitude and stick it fellow. Taxes may be at 15%, but the cost of living has more than doubled. Thereby, SIR, you made my case. Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:22 PM

And one last thing, Claymore. Neither you nor anyone else on this forum has ever asked what I think of democrats, nor have I ever said. So take your presumptions and put them with your residual attitude.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Blackcatter
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:24 PM

Amen Brucie


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:27 PM

true...i don't think well of either....they're ALL a bunch of greedy arse lickers...


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:33 PM

Thanks for clearing that up for me Amergin! I get confused :)

Tomato, tomatoe, lets call the whole thing off!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: johnfitz.com
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:43 PM

People may not remember Reagan correctly. but many people do remember him fondly. The basic values of our country are conservative; and I would argue that our instincts are intuitively generous. Our political reality builds on that foundation. When we step off of that foundation we sound shrill and unimportant, mainly because we have nothing of real value to offer. As folksingers we prosper only on the lower ends of the FM dial because that is where we hear ourselves most clearly. The problem is that no minds are changed via preaching to the choir...

I started writing this only because I do think we need to respect the dignity of a family and a nation saying goodbye to a much loved leader. It is a public event in a free country. You are free to go stand in the front line of the procession and tell people how much he sucked, If informing people of your view of history is important, do it publicly, among the wolves--but, not here in this safe zone


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:56 PM

Safe zone or not, johnfitz, it is public. The people posting are stating opinions, just as you stated yours. No one here is gauche enough to goe to anyone's funeral and call the deceased an idiot. I also doubt you would go and shout out that he was a saint. That is not what funerals are for. People are remarking and giving their thoughts about a person who has entered American and World history. Maybe not everyone wants the spin put on it that you do. Could be a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:13 PM

...and not everyone would agree with johnfitz that the basic values of this country are conservative. Hardly.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:19 PM

"The basic values of our country are conservative"--well, Johnfitz, you seem to feel you're speaking for a lot of people. I sat in a graduate English class one day and when we introduced ourselves the woman next to me said "I was raised in a traditional family," and went on to describe her Southern Baptist Cleaver family existence, yet based on all of the people in the classroom, her "tradition" was the minority. She spoke in such a way as to suggest to the rest of us that we were aberrations from her "norm." Well, that's what you're doing. Somehow all of the people here are aberrations from your norm, and you dismiss the numbers who are clearly displeased with Reagan the politican, to say nothing of the marginal actor.

Now if you wanted to say that you're speaking for the gullible people of America, clearly quite a few didn't understand what a disaster Reagan was going to be to them, because they voted for him. you can do that. And they still didn't catch on after four years and they reelected him. You may speak for those folks.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: johnfitz.com
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:48 PM

You're right. I'm sorry, it is public. "Safe zone" was an obnoxious choice of words.   I am responding viscerally to the posts in this thread--not always a good idea. Ron, I will stand by my claim that our basic values are conservative. Maybe we have different views on what constitutes conservatism? My basic take on conservatism is that it celebrates self reliance, a limit on taxation, a wariness towards goverment solutions to societal issues, (including military intervention in foreign countries, health care and personal freedoms) Included in my sentence on America being basically conservative was the reality that we are also reflexively generous...but not to the point where we want huge sums of money thrown at the problems of our society, and not to the point of being dictated to by others countries who do not share our interests and risks. To me, this is very different than right wing social activism. I think it cuts a broad swath through our culture. I also think it takes on different characteristics in different parts of the country. I think it has been reinforced through every wave of immigration to our country. What is the closest thing to "the heartbeat of america." ( a jingle coined for Chevy by a popular American Folksinger)


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: johnfitz.com
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 12:17 AM

Stillysage, I would venture sarcastically that a graduate english class is not reflective of a huge chunk of society. In no way, shape or form did I suggest that my idea of "conservative" was based on the Cleaver norm you very blithely throw out as your paradigm. I did not use the word traditional, or christian. They would certainly be included under the umbrella of conservative values, but so would the immigrant communities in almost every city in the country, so would most of rural america. You are not an aberation from my norm. I sing, and I write, and I perform folk songs. I've never voted for a republican in my life, but, I profoundly respect people's right to vote for whom they please. I can't enter their hearts like you so ably do and proclaim their "gullability." I imagine most of them in a different place than you, with different responsibilities, and probably, a different mind-set, thankfully.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 12:36 AM

You're making another assumption, johnfitz. Are you familiar with graduate school and the wide category of "non-traditional student" who inhabit them today? Did you know that graduate school enrollment increases every time there is a big job slump, and since Bush came into office our enrollment has gone through the roof as people scramble to do what they can to retrain to find employment? We're not talking about an elitist culture here. I didn't say which school, yet you take the liberty of doubting the makeup of the class, and dismiss the informal survey out of hand. And now you're speaking for the tired, the poor, the huddled masses. It must be nice to be omniscient.

I profoundly respect people's right to vote for whom they please--and I also respect the right to get accurate information and not tons of propaganda from political machines when making those decisions about voting. The system here is broken, and too many people are so gullible that they pick up the slogan that they think suits them (and is usually misrepresentative of the case at hand) and go with it. It swings both ways, but the biggest money and the dirtiest tricks have always belonged to the republican party in the last 50 years that I can vouch for.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: johnfitz.com
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:02 AM

Retrain in a graduate English Class! Obviously they are not that desperate for a job. (actually, I'm jealous--I'd love to go to graduate school--especially in English, but I'm afraid and financially unable to leave my job, which, ironically, is teaching English) In the last week there has been a big surge in jobs; does Bush get any credit for that? The republicans are better at dirty politics these last fifty years because they studied the democratic tactics mastered and practiced in almost every major city in the country from the civil war to the 1950's. James Carville instilled a great fear in republican circles. He is that good. But, as Jay Leno said, "John Kerry probably has Billy Joel driving his campaign bus."


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:49 AM

In the last week the local businesses were busy accepting high school and college students as minimum-wage employees for the summer. It happens every year at this time. And guess what? In August there is a big drop in jobs. Wanna guess why? No one gets "credit" for those numbers.

People are catching onto the concept that with a good working knowledge of English and communication and critical thinking skills (and anyone in this university today also has to show competence in four basic computer literacy areas before graduating) they can often get a job in which the employer will then train them to the specific tasks. A lot of employers find that a good starting place when hiring. But all fields across the board see this increase.

People will go to many lengths to go back to school. Drop the surprise and disabuse yourself of the idea that going to school implies affluence. It implies good sense and usually a major downsizing in lifestyle, student loans, grants, moving back home, part-time work, non-traditional study times (with 24-7 libraries that is possible now) and a real drive to succeed.

Thanks to Reagan, much of the federal money that went out into the communities in an equitable manner through agencies around the country to aid large numbers of people was lumped into "Block Grants." Reagan said he wanted to downsize federal government, so this was one way he did it. Block grants are still around today, and they give a lot of power to discriminate in each state to the party in power that doles out the cash. It has always been an argument about state's rights versus fair access to those federal dollars by all citizens. Ever since Reagan made that one little change, a lot of the access vanished. Now Bush is pushing all of his faith-based funding because guess what? The infrustructure is no longer there in the community for the poor and others who need help.

When Reagan left office, there were more federal employees than when he was first elected. So much for that electioneering dogma. As maligned as federal employees were, he couldn't live without them either.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 03:29 AM

(From The Nation)

66 Things to Think About When Flying Into Reagan National Airport by David Corn

The firing of the air traffic controllers, winnable nuclear war, recallable nuclear missiles, trees that cause pollution, Elliott Abrams lying to Congress, ketchup as a vegetable, colluding with Guatemalan thugs, pardons for F.B.I. lawbreakers, voodoo economics, budget deficits, toasts to Ferdinand Marcos, public housing cutbacks, redbaiting the nuclear freeze movement, James Watt.

Getting cozy with Argentine fascist generals, tax credits for segregated schools, disinformation campaigns, "homeless by choice," Manuel Noriega, falling wages, the HUD scandal, air raids on Libya, "constructive engagement" with apartheid South Africa, United States Information Agency blacklists of liberal speakers, attacks on OSHA and workplace safety, the invasion of Grenada, assassination manuals, Nancy's astrologer.

Drug tests, lie detector tests, Fawn Hall, female appointees (8 percent), mining harbors, the S&L scandal, 239 dead U.S. troops in Beirut, Al Haig "in control," silence on AIDS, food-stamp reductions, Debategate, White House shredding, Jonas Savimbi, tax cuts for the rich, "mistakes were made."

Michael Deaver's conviction for influence peddling, Lyn Nofziger's conviction for influence peddling, Caspar Weinberger's five-count indictment, Ed Meese ("You don't have many suspects who are innocent of a crime"), Donald Regan (women don't "understand throw-weights"), education cuts, massacres in El Salvador.

"The bombing begins in five minutes," $640 Pentagon toilet seats, African- American judicial appointees (1.9 percent), Reader's Digest, C.I.A.-sponsored car-bombing in Lebanon (more than eighty civilians killed), 200 officials accused of wrongdoing, William Casey, Iran/contra.

"Facts are stupid things," three-by-five cards, the MX missile, Bitburg, S.D.I., Robert Bork, naps, Teflon.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 08:01 AM

You forgot Ed Meese's "there are no poor/homeless people in America".

Is that self-satisfied, smirking SOB still around? If so, here's hoping he follows his Chief in short order.

Come to think of it, HE could have been the one that taught Dumbya that obnoxious smirk........


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 08:49 AM

good list, Ellen. Thanks!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 09:55 AM

Johnfitz, I do think defining our terms as to what "conservatism" is helps us to find common ground. I do agree with most of what you say when you state that basic values of this country "celebrates self reliance, a limit on taxation, a wariness towards goverment solutions to societal issues". The last part may be the area where "liberals" and "conservatives" really split hairs. I really believe that most Americans support government solutions, or at least assistance, on issues that effect us all - such as health care, enviromental controls, upholding civil liberties, etc. None of us support government making those decisions.   So why do "conservatives" support the government stepping in and making decisions on gay marriages or a woman's right to choose? What happend to "self reliance"???

Part of the big problem of the latter half of the 20th century, in my opinion, was that Ronald Reagan and his kind helped create a stigma of the word "liberal". By turning it into a 4 letter word, and the Democrats being afraid to stand up for their ideals, we turned "conservative".   We neglected the true values that built this country and fell into believing Reagan's 1950's ideals of what constitutes America. We weren't Ozzie and Harriet or the Cleavers.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 10:09 AM

"liberals" and "conservatives" really split hairs.

Ron, under the current administration, it is not hairs being split, but the entire nation, and th elives of its people. I have never seen a people so divided in their appreciation of their central so-called government. Well, maybe the Ukrainians...that last five-year plan thing...but not this nation.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 10:18 AM

My point exactly Amos. Both sides have great difficulty working together. Conservatism has been overtaken by fanaticsm.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:20 PM

I think johnfitz has lotsa class. Pleased to meet you.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:36 PM

Class and ass rhyme.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 05:12 PM

Just because someone has views that differ from mine does not make that person an ass. Wrong, yes. But not an ass. I like the way he handles himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Raedwulf
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 05:39 PM

Class and ass rhyme.

So do Guest & pest! ;) And I've not heard of many poets who have ruled countries. This may or may not be a blessing...

Conservatism, in an older sense of the word, can be defined as fear of change. conservatism with a small 'c' (NB: In the UK the Conservative party is the approximate equivalent of the Republicans - the right wing party, in other words). 'Fear of Change' sounds a bit perjorative. Is "better the devil you know..." a better expression of the mind-set? I hope you all immediately recognise what I mean. Successful political campaigns these days seem to be run on the basis of "fear them, they will fuck you", not "love us, we can do all this for you", know what I mean?

Whether you like it or not, & regardless of the thinking of individuals, large masses of people show identifiable characteristics & can easily be manipulated on that basis. Good politicians understand this, & pull strings appropriately (how do you think Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, et al, gained so much power?).

Of course America is conservative. Not Conservative, conservative! People, en masse, fear change & hark back to the good old days, whatever their political leanings. There are plenty of good E.European communists who regret the effects that Perestroika had on their ordered worlds!

Nevertheless, whether SRS, Amergin, & co like it or not, the US is Conservative (with the big C). In the capitalised British sense of the word. The Democrats would never pass for left wing in the UK. In fact, they're quite possibly to the right of our centre party Liberal Democrats. Probably only Israel is a genuinely democratic state that regularly elects a government more right wing than the US.

In a similar fashion, our left wing (no, I said 'left wing', not 'our current Labour party', OK? McGrath & others please note!) would probably serve as centre party in France or Germany.

French politics seem to me to be balanced at a point further left than the UK. In truth, the French right wing (ignoring the Jean-Marie Le Pen ideology, which I would class as extreme) possibly equates to the US centre. And Russia is balanced further left than that, not least because they were communist for so long.

Nevertheless, regardless of Conservatism of any relative stripe (& all Conservatism is relative, whether you call it by that name, fascism, or some other appellation), all of the mass is conservative (with the small c) by instinct, regardless of the relative stripe of local/national politics. If you forget that, I think you either forget or fail to understand human nature.

It is easier to frighten people, than to inspire them.

It easier to be negative about the enemy, than to be positive about your friends.

It is easier to decry your opposition, than to cry your own virtues!

Forget that, & you will never win office. That, perhaps, is the difference between a Claymore & an Amergin, a Doug & an SRS. The Amergins will wonder why their message didn't get across, but the Claymores will make sure they win!

[Note: Most governments in most countries throughout history have been to the right of the national ideology. Conclusion? The lefties are better at naive ideology, the righties are better at fighting dirty & getting their way!)


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 05:52 PM

Following up on what Raedwulf just said, in most European countries, some form of fairly all-inclusive government sponsored social safety net is taken for granted. True, taxes are high, but they get a lot for their taxes. Along with this, there seems to be a general regard for the fact that people have lives beyond work, hence laws that limit the amount of time a person can be required to work and mandate vacations of several weeks instead of the one or two weeks that is standard in the United States. People like Rick Steves, a local travel guru, writer of travel books, host of a travel show on television, and who travels in Europe with great frequency, notes that Europeans in general seem to be more relaxed, not so dedicated to work as the all-encompassing purpose of their lives, and appear to enjoy life a lot more than most hard-driving (and driven) Americans. When your boss requires you to take your laptop and your cell phone with you on vacation, that's not quite a real vacation.

I hear time and time again that many Europeans regard even our most progressive politicians as "conservative." And people like those in the Reagan and Bush administrations as practically off the Right end of the scale. Considering the lip-service our fearless leaders (Democrat and Republican) give to egalitarianism and democracy, this country is severely skewed.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 06:30 PM

That's spelled SCREWED, Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Fitting Tribute to a Great Leader
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 06:48 PM

You're right. I stand corrected.

Don Firth


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