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BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

dianavan 12 Apr 04 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Shlio 12 Apr 04 - 04:47 PM
Chief Chaos 12 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM
Little Hawk 12 Apr 04 - 04:56 PM
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Subject: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:39 PM

In your religion, what (or who) is the holy ghost? This is a serious inquiry. I understand the meaning of The Father (God) and The Son (Jesus) but what exactly is your understanding of the Holy Ghost? If you say spirit, please explain what your religion means by spirit and what that has to do with the trinity. Is it the same in Roman Catholicism as it is in Orthodox Christianity?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:47 PM

I'm a Christian, but have no idea what type I am. I converted about a year and a half ago, and since then have heard some pretty contradictory views. The understanding I currently have is that the Holy Spirit is the part of the divine that is within Christians.

At my Christian Union, people sometimes pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and say that it is the Spirit that gives gifts such as speaking in tongues.

I am, however, very willing to be corrected if I've misunderstood.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

Last I heard they took the last train for the coast. I think the holy ghost is the one who had to pay for the tickets.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:56 PM

Ah. Well, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are merely three symbols of a Divine Trinity. The Divine is a single Unity, but you can express it as:

1. One

2. A Duality: Light and Darkness, Here and There, Finite and Infinite, Manifest and Unmanifest, etc...

3. A Trinity: Mother, Father, Child; Father, Son, Holy Spirit; Length, Width, Breadth; Above, Below, Within; etc...

The founders of Christianity, for their own cultural reasons, chose to express their trinity as a Father, a Son, and an indeterminate force or presence designated "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost". In doing so, they left out an obvious female component in Creation, which was a silly thing to do, but they were living in a very patriarchal order at that time.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Megan L
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:57 PM

dianavan sorry cant help from theological viewpoint but comming from an island with 2 distileries I always feel there is a parralel. the grain and the crystal water are distilled and the resultant spirit is the essence of them both.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:03 PM

Little Hawk - what religion do you follow, please?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:07 PM

For starters, the Trinity is a mystery I'm comfortable not understanding. When Christ knew that he was going to be crucified, he told his disciples that he was going to send someone to lead them and comfort them. Blind Willie Johnson sings about the Comforter coming, and he's talking about the Holy Spirit. Some people think of the Holy Spirit as their conscience. Everyone (including Atheists catch themselves saying " something just told me to do it..." That inner voice that guides us, that we all have and call different things
can be thought of as the Holy Spirit.

I spent a long summer reading books about the Holy Spirit and my conclusion was that the "something" in "something tells me" is the Holy Spirt... God revealing his will to me.

Of course, this may seem like a bunch of hogwash to Atheists and Agnostics. But, you asked...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:08 PM

Dunno much about JEsus, but it has always seemed to me that the life-force of the individual consciousness is about as Holy Ghosty as one can get, short of falling into the infinite (whihc I suppose is the father side in some perspectives). But I see no merit in subdividing these things inotthese categories, frankly. IT does not make for more effective knowledge.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:48 PM

I am an Episcopalian. From where I am today, I would say this.

First, we all have spirit. It is created in us and given to us freely. Like our minds and our actions, it is controlled by our free will. We can direct how and in what direction it is developed, and this can be affected by how we are treated and raised as children, and other life experience.

The experience of choosing Christ as Lord and Savior, and deciding to follow Him, is a transforming experience. One thing that is transformed (initially and then also over time) is our spirit.

One way this transformation happens is through the grace of the Holy Spirit.... grace in this sense being an outpoured sacred love that envelops us and draws us closer. Each time this occurs-- each time we accept it-- there is more transformation, more closeness, more response from us. Over time, with continual yielding into this, we become more like Christ. We start to want to give up anything in us that does not conform to Him.... we start to see things from a view of loving Him more than anything else, and this changes so much about our lives, I can't even describe it.   What is good is strengthened, what is not good (for us or anyone else) is redeemed into something else that IS good.

So in one sense, part of the gift to the believer is "holy-spirit"... a continually-transformed spirit, increasingly conforming to the full stature of Christ, the new person created in us....

THE "Holy Spirit" is in us but it is not of us, and is not we ourselves... it is one way we view and interact with God, but it comes from God, and we respond to it, and can be immersed in it. It is given to us for many reasons, perhaps most importantly for the building up of the body of the faithful. THAT Holy Spirit is a gift to believers only.... it follows an act or decision of faith that indicates we are willing to accept it as the unearned gift it is. Once accepted, it enkindles in us an increasingly accurate hearing and response to God's will for us.

Without that gift, there is much about Christianity and God's Word that isn't going to make sense or fully resonate. This is one reason nonbelievers have so much trouble understanding whatever people of faith say we know as a certainty, and why conversation about some of these matters of the heart can be so frustating and so unproductive of understanding.

This Holy Spirit is part of God, not part of us. As such it has all the power you would expect a Supreme Being to have, not one-third of it. :~) It is a means of giving us MORE gifts-- Spiritual Gifts to know things we could not know in ourselves, gifts of leadership beyond what we could otherwise do, and so forth. These are supernaturally-powered Gifts that we do not power ourselves, over and far above our natural talents, skills, or personality traits, but working in concert with our developed talents and skills and traits..... if you are yielded to this, you receive a lot, and the more you receive and use as God would have you use it, the more often and more deeply this happens.

We are encouraged to test our perception of the work of the Holy Spirit in us and through us and around us, to avoid being fooled by our only-human senses and desires. We test these experiences and the conclusions we reach by comparing them with Scripture and the life of Jesus as it has been revealed to us.

Some Bible translations have merged these two different concepts-- holy-spirit and THE Holy Spirit-- into one translated term, "Holy Spirit," in several passages. The Bible does this a lot-- translation that limits concepts or mixes them up. This is because the original languages, and especially the Greek of the NT, were rich in meanings to the people of their time, that are not easily boiled down into a few starkly-printed words. We have a current-day parallel that can help make this clearer-- how many words are there for SNOW in some languages? Each word, to a speaker of that language, evokes a picture, a smell, a touch, maybe a sound. But in English, it's ALL just "snow," and we struggle in prose or poetry to be accurate about what we might have experienced or meant to evoke.

All I can really tell you that I think is observable from outside my experience or my words is this-- it works for me, and I get smarter and more effecive in the world, not less. It opens me to life, doesn't close me off from the world. It's the only thing I have ever found that is bigger than I am, that I have to keep up with instead of it keeping up with me. I don't mind that it is stuff that I will never fully understand in my "lifetime." Since to me, "liftime" includes the eternity I'll enjoy in Jesus' lap, I hope to understand more while caring less that I do not understand ALL.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM

In doing so, they left out an obvious female component in Creation, which was a silly thing to do, but they were living in a very patriarchal order at that time.

And so we see how all that is supposed to be believed and absolute is rewritten in the image of its time.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:55 PM

A lot of people see the Holy Spirit as female, or genderless.

And a lot of other people say Jesus had a pretty well-developed feminine side.

:~)

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:02 PM

Of course. People always express any great archetype through the imagery that is characteristic of their time and their way of thinking. That doesn't discredit the archetype, it merely characterizes it in a particular fashion.

It's the only way people know how to do it. We are all doing that right now, each in our own particular fashion.

Schlio - I belong to no religion and I respect all of them. I belong to Life, as we all do. I accept that God or Spirit or Truth are far bigger matters than any particular religion can encompass or have ownership of or jurisdiction over. I have studied the Native Medicine Way, Christianity, Taoism, some Buddhism, some Hinduism, Yoga, a little of the Muslim and Jewish faiths, and numerous forms of philosophy. I find some of the Truth in all of them. They all began as an honest search for Truth. They all expressed it as best they could through the means they were familiar with.

I consider the Christ to be an active Spirit that assists humanity, but I do not consider the Christ concept to be an exclusively Christian one by any means. Was Jesus an embodiment of the Christ Spirit at that time (2,000 years ago)? Yes, I think so. Was he the only one ever. No, I don't think so at all. There have been many. He was certainly one of the most notable incarnations of the Christ Spirit in historical times, and the force of what he taught and demonstrated is still very much in effect, and I mean that in an entirely positive sense...quite apart from some of the horrible things people and churches have done in his name.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:08 PM

In Judiasm, there is God.

There is no son of God. God is all we ever will need. We, essentially, accept no substitutes. The real and original is good enough.

As I have said before, Jews do not deny Jesus, a fine man indeed, lived and died. But he did die, as any mortal does. It is fine with me if you believe that he died for your sins, but everyone keeps on sinning, anyway.

That also means that we believe there is no Holy Ghost. Unless you are talking about Casper, of course. :')


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:13 PM

Sure, Martin, but it's just conventions...ways of talking about something. Who can define God? Who has seen God? We find ways of symbolizing and expressing the Inexpressible, as best we can.

I guess it's the same reason I belong to no political party...I see that they each have part of the truth, but I see no likelihood of any of them having exclusive claim upon it.

I consider myself fortunate to have grown up in a family that had no church or religion, because it left me open to all of them.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:25 PM

I asked this question because I could not understand how I could possibly believe in another's holy spirit. So I assumed it must be a spirit that everyone believed in. I now think that the holy spirit must be faith itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:47 PM

Well, gol danged. The Holy Ghost (Spirit) is definately a female 'cause it can nag worser than my third grade teacher, Miss Dial, ever did and I'm here to tell ya' that woman was downright evil in her naggin'. Sho nuff. Like you think about doing domethin' dumb and there either Miss Dial 'er the Holy Spirit whoppin' yer butt upside the head with a stick. Sho nuff. Might of fact, I think Miss Dial woulda given the Holy Spirit one heck of a run in any butt whop contest...

But, sniff, it ain't all about whuppin' up on ya when ya think bad thoughts, both of 'em were real good at tellin' ya the stuff you should be doing. Yup, they seem to know more about yer than you do and so they just keep givin' you these little talks to keep yer butt out of the ditches and moving forward...

Now that may not seem too theological but it's my take on Holy Spirit.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM

So, the Holy Spirit seems to be the faith to listen to you conscience.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:23 PM

I really like what Jerry said, “the Trinity is a mystery I'm comfortable not understanding.” In Orthodoxy we accept many Mysteries by faith and make no attempt to reduce them to human understanding. Our Church grew from the Apostles, the Holy Fathers, and the Seven Ecumenical Councils. We make no pretense at understanding the Divine in any human sense.

The Eastern Orthodox Church uses the Nicene Creed:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth and of all things, visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and was made man;
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was burried;
And the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures;
And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;
And He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, Who procedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the Prophets;
And I believe in one Holy, catholic and Apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the Resurrection of the dead,
And the life of the world to come.    Amen.
In Orthodoxy, the Holy Trinity refers to a triune God, one God with three distinct characterizations. We celebrate the first revelation of the Trinity at the Feast of Holy Theophany (the Baptisim of Christ). Orthodox Icons of The Creation always depict Christ as the instrument of Creation.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: jaze
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:02 PM

Martin, weren't the prophets who predicted a savior for the Jews Jewish? Was is God(the Father) himself they were expecting? As opposed to an aspect of him like Jesus?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: IvanB
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:13 PM

Martin, all English translations of the OT that I've read state something of the nature that "the Spirit of God moved upon the waters" in Genesis 1:2. If the Spirit of God is not "the" Holy Spirit, I don't know what would be. I state this mainly because I've heard from Jewish scholars that a dual nature of God, i.e., person and spirit, was part of Judaism from its very beginning. I'd be interested in knowing your ideas regarding this from your reading of Hebrew scripture. Is there a mistranslation?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:23 PM

Prior to 325 A.D. most religions were dualistic (recognition of good and evil) but after that, the Holy Spirit was introduced as the soul of man which was mostly evil but also contained seeds of goodness - is that right?

Baptism is then the act of purifying the soul. Even Jesus had to have his soul cleansed because he was a mortal. Thats why Christians believe we are all born sinners. Am I right so far?

Seems to me that acknowledgement of good and evil should suffice. Except by a large degree of faith in the wisdom of the Church Fathers, there is very little reason to believe in the trinity. I'm beginning to believe that I am more Jewish than not.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:27 PM

Considering all the different authors of the bible it is clear they did not all consult each other. There may have been some good ideas there once upon a time but I am afraid too many cooks spoiled the broth. If confusion is to be limited why don't you just take Lividicus as the only true version. (Its closer to the Koran that way)

love these church signs as of late...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/church-signa.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:56 PM

Actually, Don, the bible doesn't seem to mention the holy ghost or the trinity.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM

Mathew 3:16-17 says “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” I believe this is a prime biblical source for the Feast of Holy Theophany.

Besides that, the phrase “Holy Spirit” is found in Psalms (51), Luke, Thessalonians, twice in Ephesians and in the Apocryphal books of Susanna and the Wisdom of Solomon. The King James Bible uses the term “Holy Ghost” more often with references in Matthew (6), Mark (4), Luke (11), John (1), Acts (42), Romans (5), 1 Corinthians (3), 2 Corinthians (2), 1 Thessolonians (2), 2 Timothy (1), Titus (1), 1 Peter (1), 2 Peter (1), 1 John (1) and Jude (1). The Bible may be easily searched at The University of Virginia's Electronic Text Center for those wishing to check their theories before posting. <g>

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:03 PM

Thanks Mark,

I respect your knowlege of the bible. I got my information from your blue clicky about the Feast of Holy Theophany. I'll do some more reading.

It seems (at this point) that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are explained as three separate entities that were introduced after 325 A.D.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:44 PM

Actually, dianavan, I'm not much of a Bible student. I just used the search engine to look stuff up. The reason I'm such a pain in the ass about Christian Theology is that I'm a convert to Orthodoxy having been raised in a Protestant tradition, and then becoming a very confirmed athiest. Converts are often more knowledgeable about their chosen faith than those born to it.

I'm really not trying to make any theological points in these posts. I've only been trying answer what I saw as honest questions from people who wanted to know some history but don't really want a sales pitch.

The reason I often link to WikipediA is to try, when possible, to use a neutral source for reasons of academic integrity. The truth is that while I do maintain a strong personal faith, I'm generally more comfortable hanging out in bars with a bunch of smart-ass reprobates than I am with people who call themselves Christian. See, I don't think getting drunk with reprobates is sinful, I think using a mask of Christianity to justify inflicting your will on other people is sinful.

I think we've about exhausted the legitimate questions people have so I'll go back to my corner and order another round for me and my reprobate friends. Maybe Spaw will come along and help us celebrate Passout. <g>

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Tinker
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:22 PM

Diana, I'm also an Episcopal, but a bit of a left-leaning feminist in my Theology. I've been reading "Pneumatology" lately. (Study of the Spirit) Damn doesn't that sound like a disease??? Or at least the study of a disease??? It at least seems like something that should be hospitalized.
The fact that it is the only part of the Trinity historically rooted in the feminine I'm sure has nothing to do with it's position as a step child in theology. I do know that by definition I can't really understand, but occaisionally some writers or my own experiences give me glimpses of what we refer to as Spirit. To paraphrase a better scholar, there is more to God than two guys and a dove. Some things that have made me pause for thought...

The Wisdom traditions of Christianity identify the Spirit with Sophia. Elohim, one of three Hebrew words for God is actually a feminine plural... Ruah refers to the breath of life and is also feminine... But the really difficult part is that the three parts of the Trinity are really still one. Each is always part of the others, and the sum is greater than it's parts.
I could only find a review,butShe Who Is by Elizabeth Johnson is a book I would highly recommend if you are trying to explore both the Trinity and Christianity as a modern woman. Joy of the hunt...

tinker


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Kent Davis
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:58 PM

Dianavan, there is more to say than could be said in a quick email in a discussion forum. However, since you asked, I'm a plain Christian, no denomination, not Protestant, not Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. I was raised as a United Methodist and became a member of the church of Christ 23 years ago. The Holy Spirit is famously difficult to describe. That's not too surprising really. Quantum physics, Relativity, and even folk music are difficult to describe. Why should the Divine Nature to be easy to describe?
Nevertheless, we can learn a lot about the Holy Spirit by examining what the prophets say about the subject. For example, the very beginning of the Torah, Genesis 1, describes the Holy Spirit as active in the creation of the world. In Exodus 31:3, the LORD (i.e., YHWH, the Father) tells Moses that He has chosen a man named Bezalel to be "filled with the Spirit of God" to enable him to design and make beautiful art to be used in worship. In Numbers 24:2, "the Spirit of God came upon" Balaam, enabling him to prophesy.
There are hundreds of other examples. I choose these because they all are unquestionably older than the Nicene Creed of 325 and also because they predate Christianity. The Holy Spirit wasn't invented by Christianity. It was much the other way around.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM

dianavan - Since it is possible to look upon anything from 3 angles, why isn't it possible to look at God from 3 angles? Does this in any way interfere with the idea of one God. Not to me it doesn't. I can look at one thing from 3 angles...no problem.   It's simply 3 aspects of one God to speak of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Here is what it could very well mean: The Father as the original, Unmanifest, unseen power and intelligence behind all Creation. The Son as all manifested individual things in that Creation. And the Holy Spirit as the active energy that brings the Son into manifestation and sustains the Son at all times! Think about that for a minute.

Before the Big Bang there was only the Father (unmanifest). Through the action of the Holy Spirit the Big Bang occurs, bringing the Son (all perceivable phenomena and things) into visible, tactile, observable existence.

Now a statement such as: "God's Spirit moved upon the waters" doesn't necessarily have to mean the Holy Spirit in a specific sense (as a part of the official Christian Trinity). It could just as well mean that God's focused intention or God's creative energy or God's power or God's intelligence moved upon a field of possibilty...resulting in that field of possibility being changed.

Most of what is contained in ancient religious writing is highly allegorical, poetic, and symbolic. Those writings were put down by spiritual adepts to be understood by spiritual adepts in a time when most people couldn't read. The ordinary public was not expected to comprehend the mysteries contained in those texts, and they were instead given simple sets of rules and ceremonials to follow, while the people who devoted their lives to religious study (and who could read) got deeper into the symbols and hidden meanings.

That's why it's very misleading for modern people to interpret the Bible or the Baghavad Gita or other ancient texts of that kind in a bald and literal manner. You have to grasp the poetic symbols and see the meanings behind them. It's allegory, metaphor, parable, not a news report or a history lesson.

Fundamentalists don't get that, and on that basis they have historically gone around doing the most extraordinarily unspiritual things...like condemning and killing any people who don't happen to see it their way.

Atheists don't get it either, needless to say, because they don't even realize that there is anything there to get. They're busy counting beans and measuring physical distances.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:06 AM

Yes, Little Hawk, I can see God from many angles. I'm just trying to figure out why the Christian, church fathers chose only 3 - the trinity. I thought it was a simple question but I guess not.

I also understand the idea of being filled with the Spirit of God. But the more I read, the more it seems that the Holy Spirit is considered to be separate from both the Father and the son, not indwelling.

Tinker - "Pneumatology" ??? Thanks for the name of the book. Years ago, I tried to answer this question with an essay in Anthropology. The prof. wrote, "I have no idea what you're talking about but I'm sure you understand it better than I." A-

I wanted to study Religion and the Humanities but couldn't find a practical use for it and needed to feed my family.

Thanks to all of you for your references. I will be busy reading all of them and trying to figure this out.





Well, Mark, what can I say. If I were there, I'd have to buy you a drink. Have one for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:56 AM

Thank you Little Hawk, wonderfully lucid observations, I appreciate your clarity.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:04 AM

Learning a lot here, as usual, about how you can interpret something as intangible as Spirit..or even more intriguing, the word "Ghost" in this context.

I find myself nodding again with LH in how he illucidates his thoughts on a complex subject...and I run into one great problem, which is the absense of the feminine as a force within the belief system of Judeo/Christian/Islamic structures. Poor Mary even had to be a Virgin, thereby eliminating her role as being a physical part of Jesus, and any other women in these books are marginalized to say the least, certainly in terms of their power and ability to govern, much less their spirit being encompassed within the trinity. People may choose to interpret it being there, but nothing I think is written to that end.

So where exactly does that leave half the human population in regards to the Holy Spirit? I do understand that the times were patriarchal, but are they still? Will it EVER be "The Father,Mother,Son, and Holy Ghost?..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:46 AM

Well, summing all this up, I'd have to say that Man became sapient, wondered where he came from and to describe all the things he didn't understand, decided that he must have had a father/creator (God).
This was sufficient for the jews for 5,000 years and they wrote a nice book with lots of laws, family histories, disasters and persecutions about their history.
Some guys were unhappy with this one, vengeful God thing and decided that their God was now a loving entity. So loving of the Man He created in His own image that He sent His own son to save us all from our sins.
But in spite of being able to create Adam out of mud and Eve from a rib, this time He decided to surrupticiously impregnate a married but "still virgin" jewish woman to carry His son to birth.
This virgin birth was apparently unremarkable at the time as it is not recorded by the jews and it is thirty years later before we hear anything more on the life and death of the Son of God.
Another collection of good stories are gathered together (all of them written hundreds of years later that the incidents described and most certainly not by the authors ascribed).
Now we have the Father and the Son, but there is something lacking. Along come the theologians who put the final piece of the puzzle in place, "the Holy ghost", which completes the "Trinity". Only they and their "priests" are able to understand this twist and able to teach it to the lay folk, ensuring themselves of an easy life here on the planet. Later, some other "Sons of God" and "Prophets" appear in other parts of the world.
Then one "Christian" priest decides there is corruption in the organisation and nails some demands on a church door.
After this, it is "Open House" for anyone who can marshall a few followers together to worship their own idea of who God is!
An amazing story - but just a story.
So whose religion is the right one? There are so many to choose from.
They can't all be right, so if God really is sending a message, it seems he is a poor communicator.
I surmise that God did not invent Man. Man invented God!
If you disagree, please furnish proof. Like, real PROOF!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Pied Piper
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:30 AM

Very succinctly put Guest.
The Council of Nicea is where all this came to a head.
PP


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:48 AM

Weren't they the ones that took the last train for the coast, the day the music died?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,Different Guest
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:54 AM

Well, I'm learning a lot from this thread, just not about religion. What I'm learning is how poorly educated and dangerously ignorant Christians are about their own religion, and that there are now generic Christians.

I didn't know there was such a thing as a generic Christian, so I guess this my first new thing I've learned today.

dianavan, I think a lot of confusion comes from people who claim they aren't Christian or denominationally Christian (ie they are feminist, they are enlightened Buddhists, they are generic Christian) attempting to present their beliefs as facts about religion, especially when they themselves have no real experience of those religions. They've just decided they don't like that particular denomination, or they don't like Christians, or they don't like organized religion in general.

It is interesting to me how generational this ignorance is, and how prevalent it is among the "anything goes" baby boomers.

There are distinct differences among the denominations of Christianity, betweeen orthodox and non-orthodox, and between Christians and Jews, about how the holy ghost is interpreted. Mark Clark is correct about the eastern orthodox.

I would respectfully disagree that using "academic" sources to determine what the different religions and denominations believe is better. I think it makes more sense to get the information on what a Catholic believes from Catholic academic sources, what an Episcopalian believes from Episcopalian academic sources, etc.

I can only tell you what my understanding is of the holy ghost in the faith I was raised in, which is the American Catholic church, even though I am no longer a practicing Catholic, and am not a huge fan of organized religion.

So, my understanding of the meaning of the holy ghost to American Catholics, is that the holy ghost is viewed as a divine person. That is the simple, straightforward answer for a subject that is neither simple, nor straightforward. You might want to read more about this at the Catholic Encyclopedia website here:

The person of the Holy Ghost

You can also do a search in their search engine, which brings up many hits.

Remember, there is a big difference in asking about the theological beliefs and traditions of a specific religion, and asking what the historical facts are about that religion. If it is the latter you are interested in, then Mark Clark's suggestion of trying to find more neutral academic sources is the way to go. But if you want to learn what the actual beliefs and traditions are, you should go to the religious academic sources for that particular religion.

What you probably shouldn't do, is rely on Mudcat for theological answers, if this thread is anything to go by.

Try and steer clear of new age shit when studying religion. There is nothing wrong with pagan, wiccan, feminist, etc. spins being put on organized religion, but I think new age interpretations need to be viewed for what they are, which is somebody else's opinion about a subject with which they often have an ax to grind.

I'd also steer clear of interpretations given by people who claim to be Christian, but of no denomination. Historically, there has never been such a thing, although amongst American baby boomers the "I'm just a Christian" is usually (not always) indicative of "born again" and fundamentalist Christians who don't seem to know anything much about religion, but who want to use religion as a justification from right wing secular traditions of a nasty sort.

Just my opinion, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:14 AM

Translations, while they prove absolutely nothing about the beliefs of the original authors, can be interesting. For example, IvanB mentioned that Genesis 1.2 contains the phrase "Spirit of God." That is how the Revised Standard reads. However, the Jewish Publication Society of America translation reads "spirit of God." Similarly, this particular Christian translation renders Psalms 51 as saying "holy Spirit," while the Jewish Bible says "holy spirit." Hebrew does not have capitol letters, by the way.

A point for Tinker, although my Hebrew is pretty stale...the ending "-im" is normally masculine. The feminine equivalent is "-ot." An exception is for items that occur naturally in pairs; in that case, both masculine and feminine use the "-im" ending. I would not presume to make a judgement on whether or not the word "Elohim" is masculine, feminine or a plural pair.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:24 AM

If you wouldst perceive a granfalloon
Remove the skin from a toy balloon


Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

The quote is from memory and may have been altered in the process.

I believe all these issues are non-issues, non-problems, and though there are plenty of questions, you can find as many or better in any edition you choose of Tales from the Brothers Grimm. As soon parse the thought processes of Ents.

However, it is as fine a way to waste one's time on Earth as another. If it brings you satisfaction. I have never understood that, but, hey, chacun a son mauvais gout, right?
Some people like bodhrans and some NASCAR.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Tinker
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:16 AM

The foundations of belief are individual even when they grow from a particular denominational base. The book I cited above is considered academic enough to be required in Episcopal Seminary. There are fundamental questions those of us born female do struggle to answer when addressing our ability to "image Christ" and what that means in both historical and modern context. Various Christian denominations make those definitions in opposing terms.
Each of us has to make a personal faith decision. But while you may choose on faith not to agree with the work of scholars like Elisabeth Schussleer Fiorenza or Elaine Pagels, their work does provoke questions and interpretations worth consideration. If nothing else blatant denials only help one maintain their integrity of definition.

Blessed be,

tinker


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:22 AM

If nothing else blatant denials only help one maintain their integrity of definition.


Tinker,

This sentence eludes me completely -- could you clarify its meaning for me? Thanks,

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:29 AM

Ellenpoly - The best explanation, so far is that the the holy spirit is the life-giving force. That makes sense because in those days, conception was a total mystery. It is also the mediating principle between God (the heavenly father) and the Son (Jesus). It would stand to reason that the holy spirit is the mother. In that case mother and father and child represent the triniity (joined together as one in God).

Thats the best I've come up with so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Pied Piper
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:38 AM

I thought this Vitalism Bollox had been dealt with centuries ago, but I guess news travels slow in this neck of the woods.
PP


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:39 AM

I rather like that, dianavan. This is all a bit out of my own personal realm, (as I am not a Christian) but nevertheless greatly interested in all spiritual beliefs, and I appreciate your thoughts.

Tinker, I have to agree with Amos, you lost me on that last sentence. Could you try again? I will take the time to find and read the authors you mentioned..xx.e


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:44 AM

Spirituality is learned through direct experience and personal change and growth. Isaiah had direct experience. So did Jesus, John the Baptist, Buddha, Zoroaster, Gandhi, Krishna, Baha'Ullah, and many other such beings. The experience of spirituality can lead to enlightenment.

Religion is learned by rote. It is learned from books, from priests, and from churches. It is learned by imitation (monkey see...monkey do). It is enforced by conformity. It results in people with fixed, rigid opinions based not upon their own experience but on what someone else told them to believe...and it very seldom leads to enlightenment.

Spirituality is not confined to any single religion...nor is God.

And yes, Guest, most people create the God of their imagining in their own image...or their own chosen or borrowed-from-others image (which may be radically different in some respects from their image of themselves), but that doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Most people create the World in their own image too, baby! And the World exists.

What do I mean? A person who always looks at the glass as half-empty sees the World as a hard and cruel place, and likely sees God (if he believes in God) as a harsh and demanding judge. A person who see the glass as half full sees the World as a place of much positive possibility, a beautiful place, and he probably sees God (if he believes in God) as a beneficent and loving power. The person who sees the glass as brimming over is in the best shape of all, and has probably achieved enlightenment or something close to it.

Now you...you appear to be the guy who says...aw, that's just a friggin' glass! Too bad for you. :-) It makes for a mighty prosaic and mundane existence.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:46 AM

Pied Piper:

"Vitalism bollox", as used in your last post, implies what, exactly? That all life is an organization of particles and that perception itself is a mechanism? Awareness is a circuit and understanding a field effect?

Just want to make sure I understand what you are saying, exactly.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:05 AM

"I'd also steer clear of interpretations given by people who claim to be Christian, but of no denomination."

Excuse me? Denominations are a distinctly modern convention, born of theological disagreements among different groups of people. The Bible doesn't even mention denominations, only Christians as part of the "body of Christ."

I do not find it necessary as a Christian to ally myself with one particular group of believers, as I don't believe that one is superior to another, and some have beliefs that have no basis in Biblical theology. For instance, I came up in the Baptist church, which has a prohibition against dancing, even though there is no commandment that says "thou shalt not dance."

So how should I choose? And more importantly, why? I certainly don't fault those who choose to be part of a particular denomination. At this point in my life, I am simply not led that way. I do not believe it makes me "less" of a Christian.

Now, about the Holy Ghost... I just always figured the Holy Spirit was the all-encompassing entity that included the Father and the Son, as well as the Mother and the Daughter, so to speak.

I also have thought about this: Perhaps the human trinity of body-mind-spirit mirrors the Holy Trinity, and that's what it means to be created in God's image.

Your mileage may vary.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Pied Piper
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:09 AM

The Universe is what it is, dividing it in to mater and spirit as if they could be un-entangled as separate types of stuff, as usual with religious thought is a gross oversimplification and explains nothing because evidence of how this spirit stuff is supposed to affect mater stuff (or vica verca) is never provided.
We end up in most religious traditions with a vertical hierarchy of low base mater up to pure high altitude spirit which is in some way outside the universe.
So these ideas do not account for or explain what gives rise the nature of the spirit stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:15 AM

Exactly, Kim! Body-Mind-Spirit IS the human manifestation of the Holy Trinity.

The body is the Son, the mind is the Holy Spirit, and the spirit is the Father (the originating source and purpose that built the body and the mind). The spirit lasts forever. The body and mind appear, as if out of nothing, grow and learn and evolve, then die and disappear as if into nothing...and then are born again as a new young body and spirit, and the process of spiritual evolution continues.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM

And Mom is where again, LH?..xx..:>)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Tinker
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:22 AM

Okay, I'm sorry. There are many who firmly believe in a Pauline Christianity in which women are to keep silent, can never fully image Christ,etc. As long as both sides define themselves cleary each of us can know where the other is coming from and discussion can continue (or not) hopefully with respect. It can be difficult when a blanket term such as Christianity is used as a self definition by many people with totally different intentions. It is way to easy to feel the other side is attacking integrity or intellegence rather than intellectual debate. I was hurrying and as a result left things unclear.

Tinker


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:31 AM

It's just semantics, Ellenpoly. You could as well call the Father the Mother if you so desired, and in India they do indeed speak of the Divine Mother. So the trinity can express as Mother, Daughter and Holy Spirit if one chooses to use those words. In a matriarchy, that's the way it would be seen.

By the way, I think the "virginity" of Mary, mother of Jesus, that is spoken of in the New Testament can be interpreted in this fashion: it refers to a spiritual condition, not a physical one. It's a metaphor for spiritual purity. The common people, again, took it literally as meaning physical virginity (which doesn't matter here nor there...it's the inner spiritual condition of a human that matters, not the physical aspects).

Mary was not the first "virgin" in ancient religious tales to give birth to a son. It was already a rather popular notion, and it is a metaphor for something spiritual.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:36 AM

Okey dokey, LH..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

The NACAR bible may be more contemporary for some. The driver, the car and the holy pit may be easier to visualize for the masses.

Meanwhile lilhawk does a diservice to pure spirituality beyond the dogma of organizations as percieved by us non bean counting athiests.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

PP:

Thanks for the clarification.

Some folks would assert that the spiritual side is what gave rise to the material side. P'raps it is just a self-reinforcing series rather than a dualism. I kind of like that idea. The problem with it that I see is that the capabilities and dimensions of the one side seem clearly bounded, and on the other clearly unbounded. Go figger. Maybe the universe really IS smoke and mirrors?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:55 AM

G'wan, Donuel! All atheists count beans. :-) (It's a metaphor for "money".)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:20 PM

All of you Christians seem to have many different angles and spins on it all. It's just so less complicated with just God, no sons, no Holy Ghosts, no holy spirits, no one isolated case of a woman getting pregnant 2000 years ago by something other than copulation.

No scandelous boys club ministeries either.

Judiasm is probably not perfect, but it just seems like there aren't as many mysteries, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:35 PM

Well, there's something to be said for simplicity all right.

I think, Martin, that Mary's virginity was a metaphor for spiritual purity, not physical virginity. That's my opinion.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:47 PM

You get complexity as a by-product whenever you insert data based only oin authority rather than on natural law. Note "natural" does not mean only "physical" in this context. But if you inherit a lexicon of asserted truisms that are in the first instanc eborne out of some authoritarian decree, you can spend a whole lifetime trying to untangle the complexity this introduces into your understanding. This is very ineffective knowledge. There are lots of ways to know, but depending on authoritarian legacy is one of the least effective.

"As simple as possible, but no simpler...." as the good doctor put it.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:00 PM

Aren't as many mysteries? All religion seeks to interpret mysteries. If there weren't a lot of mysteries in religion, whether written or oral, there would be no need of shamans or priests or monks or rabbis to interpret.....or for Agatha Christie for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:17 PM

There's another trinity about which you might read more. Sophia, God, and Shekinah. Two feminine aspects in this one.Jesus even mentions Sophia in the Gnostic gospels.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:42 PM

Martin: Kabbalah?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:47 PM

Try and steer clear of new age shit when studying religion. There is nothing wrong with pagan, wiccan, feminist, etc. spins being put on organized religion, but I think new age interpretations need to be viewed for what they are, which is somebody else's opinion about a subject with which they often have an ax to grind.

I think this is a very good example of the difference between "religion" and "spirituality". And why I have an experience of the latter and choose to have nothing to do with the former. In organized religions, people seek to impose their will upon other people's experience of spirituality... "you should do this and you will burn in hell for that". When people do that sort of thing, I tend to suspect alterior motives. My own belief is that organized religion was created for and has always been maintained as a means of controlling behavior. Nothing more, nothing less.

What you experience as your connection to the divine or to 'spirit' is your own business, dianavan, and nobody else's.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 03:40 PM

The use of the Unknown represented as Overwhelming as a control mechanism is as old as witchdoctors and vbolcanos, I reckon, and yes, it is a control mechanism, for better or for worse. Usually worse.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 05:42 PM

Actually, only those who believe in evangelism, are interested in shoving their version of religion down someone else's throat.

But there is an integrity to the denominations that deserve to be honored by everyone, not just Christians.

Of course, perhaps everyone is just saying "fuck that organized religious shit, I want to do my own thing with the Bible".

That's fine too. But if you'd tried doing that AS A CHRISTIAN 200 years ago in Austria, or the US, or anywhere else that Christian Europeans lived and colonized, you would have had some trouble getting the church fathers and the town fathers to believe you.

That's just the way it was, folks, and for most Christians (except the NASCAR, Born Again, New Age, and Fundamentalist Christians, they don't need no steeenkin' denominations!

OK! OK!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:00 PM

Denominations are a funny thing, GUEST, 13 Apr 04 - 05:42 PM. They have a habit of multiplying when people within them can't agree on how their own members should behave. My favorite example of this is the two Lutheran churches that sit side by side next to each other just outside of the town of Accident, Maryland, USA. People got to squabbling about who was doing a better job of complying with whatever the rules were for being a good Lutheran, and they split into two factions (and now two different Synods) and that was that.

In organized religion, there is far more control, or at least efforts at control, within the religion or the denomination than efforts to control outsiders.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:46 PM

Denominations are a funny thing

Yeahm right up there with pokes in the eye with a sharp stick. Maybe we could get SNL to do a Battle of the Denominations skit, starring the Church Lady and her evil sister who belongs to the Dextorotary Baptists.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: IvanB
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:52 PM

Years back I read an account by a woman who, with her teenage daughter, made a canoe trip on Canada's MacKenzie River. Way out in the boonies, when they hadn't seen another human for weeks, a young missionary couple showed up. As their story unfolded, it turned out they had come originally from a church in Ohio named "The Believers of Christ." There'd been a squabble in the congregation and it was split, with those who left calling themselves "The True Believers of Christ." A couple years later, the inevitable squabble and another split. Thus, this young couple were now proselytizing for "The Only True Believers of Christ."

I got a bit of a chuckle from it but it's all too indicative of human group dynamics whether in religion or any other setting.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:03 PM

Wow! When an outfit is THAT exclusive, you'd think there'd be hordes of people just panting to gain membership...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:50 AM

LittleHawk, I gave up on religion years ago and set my own philosophy, which neither sees the glass as half-full or half-empty, but simply half-way to the next glass.
As a philosophy, I'd have to agree that it is a tad limited, but it works for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:57 AM

Thanks to all of you for your contributions.

Carol C. - I know that what I believe is my own business but it helps to inform me when I know what others believe and what the different denominations believe.

The question regarding the Holy Spirit (ghost) has been on my mind for a long time. Perhaps it symbolizes woman as the life giving force or maybe its just another name for love. Its amazing to me how people faithfully accept what the church fathers have dictated without ever questioning the basics.

Thanks for your insight.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 11:17 AM

"Its amazing to me how people faithfully accept what the church fathers have dictated without ever questioning the basics."

And that's exactly why I no longer identify myself with any particular denomination.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 11:25 AM

GUEST, Guest - Well, that's a perfectly workable way of looking at it, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:47 PM

Martin Gibson-Judiasm isn't as complicated??? You mean the same religion that has 613 different commandments? Oh please!

LH-How about a glass that's just opaque? That way the mystery is maintained on just what exactly is in it, much less how much.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM

Carol C. - I know that what I believe is my own business but it helps to inform me when I know what others believe and what the different denominations believe.

I know. My post was really more of a response to people who are arguing about which of them is right than in response to you having posted this thread. I think this is a good thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:51 PM

So, we see "as through a glass, darkly..."


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:26 PM

That "darkly seeing" attribute is what I am talkin', man...how come IS that? Huh? And how do we wipe away that grimy stuff and see as through a glass clearly? What we need here, boy, is some SPIRICHOOAL WINDEX! SPIRCHOOAL WIPETTES!!!   YOWZAH! Now THAT's wot ah'm talkin' about!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:37 PM

I think people mistook my original post about why you shouldn't ask New Age Christians what the beliefs of the UUs or the UBs are. You should find out what the different denominations believe from the scholars of each denomination.

If you are looking for information about the history of religion, or the theological underpinings of a religion compared to another, you go to comparative religion or religious historians or archaeologists for that information.

That was all I was trying to point out--where to go for information. But apparently I wasn't very articulate about it, so I apologize for that. I am an adult survivor of Catholic indoctrination who is a confirmed secular agnostic. I advocate for secularism, not religion.

As to glass being half empty, full, or opaque--I threw the glass away a long time ago and now only drink from the bottle. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:56 PM

I want WINDEX OF THE SOUL, man!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:26 PM

When in Germany a sausage factory exploded one of the sausages flew up that high that it landed in heaven. It was passed between all the angles and the saints and nobody could tell what it was. Then one of them suggested to show it to the Virgin Mary, because she had been on Earth and she might know.

Virgin Mary handled it, sniffed and looked at it for quite a while and then said: If it wasn't for that little piece of string at the one end I'd say it is the Holy Ghost.

Wolfgang (whose only weak excuse is that the friend from which he has the joke is a pastor)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:26 PM

Ellenpoly

As someone who had religious training as a youth, and has been active in my reform congregation for a number of years, I have never heard of the 613 commandments you mention.

Could you please list them for me in all your wisdom?

In fact, please memorize them for me and you will be a better Jew than I am.

You can be sure there isn't a reformed or conservative rabbi anywhere who teaches or preaches these if they exist on some web site which you will frantically be looking for. If you are not sure, than I am.

I contend that Judiasm is much more simple than Chritianity. We focus on God. No other dieties or interpretations of supreme beings, family members of God, whether the Holy Spirit is a women, ghost, whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:46 PM

Wolfgang, that's a riot!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM

Well, then, Martin, you have a lot in common with the Muslims. They only focus on the one God too. Sublime simplicity. So why all this rumpus in Palestine? :-)

Wolfgang - I'm not sure I get it. Does the sausage reference have a double meaning in German or am I just dense? (now there's a great opening for someone to take advantage of....)

GUEST - As someone who grew up in the exact opposite situation from you (a secular, agnostic family) I find it intriguing that I ended up following a consciously spiritual path, but not joining any particular religion. One of the tasks incumbent upon children growing up is to achieve their own individuality and freedom...and in so doing they usually have to cast off much of the overlay that was put upon them by their parents and elders. You did it in your way, I did it in mine.

What I tried to do in order to be happy in life was:

I collected things I was interested in. Stamps, coins, model kits, books, etc.

I avoided nasty people as best I could, but couldn't avoid them at school!

I desperately sought my "one true love" for about 25 or 30 years, going out with various women. Didn't find her, but I did have some great learning experiences along the way.

I desperately sought the respect and approval of other people, eventually discovering that it actually doesn't matter all that much. What matters is self-respect and belief in one's one value, regardless of the opinions of others.

I sought security in its various forms...financial, emotional, etc.

The only thing I found that yielded genuine happiness was to change something inside myself...my own consciousness...and that led me directly into spiritual studies and convinced me that there is a "God" and a divine purpose in Life, and I am part of it. From this I have found much of the elusive happiness that I was searching for only in things outside of myself and not finding.

I belong to no formalized religion. I am friendly toward most of them.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:19 PM

WOlfgang:

Made my day!! LOL!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:30 PM

;-)

Amos... are your feeling spiritually opaque?

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:51 PM

Here you go, Martin. If I were to guess, I would say that Judaism, like many other religions, can be as simple or as complicated as each adherant chooses to make it:

The laws of the Torah

According to the Talmud (Tractate Makot), there are 613 mitzvot (commandments) in the Torah; In Hebrew these are known as the Taryag mitzvot. There are 248 positive mitzvot and 365 negative mitzvot given in the Torah, supplemented by seven mitzvot legislated by the rabbis of antiquity. However, in practice there is no one definitive list that explicates the 613 laws: Centuries after the idea of 613 laws came into existence various rabbis compiled lists of the 613 laws, yet each list varied slightly. The differences come about because in some places the Torah lists related laws together, so it is difficult to know whether one is dealing with a single law, which lists several cases, or several separate laws.

The laws of the Torah

The Talmud (tractate Makkoth 23b) states that the Torah contains 613 mitzvot (precepts), of which 248 are mitzvot aseh (positive commandments) - equal to the number of bones in the human body - and 365 mitzvot lo taaseh (negative commandments) - equal to the number of days in the solar year.

613 mitzvot

List of the 613 Mitzvot
Level: Advanced

Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own.

For each mitzvah, I have provided a citation to the biblical passage or passages from which it is derived, based primarily on Rambam. For commandments that can be observed today, I have also provided citations to the Chafetz Chayim's Concise Book of Mitzvot (CCA refers to affirmative commandments; CCN refers to negative commandments; CCI refers to commandments that only apply in Israel). Commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist) and criminal procedures (because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist).

List of the 613 mitzvot (commandments)

Judaism 101

Welcome!

Welcome to Judaism 101! Judaism 101 is an online encyclopedia of Judaism, covering Jewish beliefs, people, places, things, language, scripture, holidays, practices and customs. My goal is to make freely available a wide variety of basic, general information about Judaism, written from a traditional perspective in plain English. This web site is constantly growing, with new information added every few weeks...

...This site is created, written and maintained by Tracey Rich. I do not claim to be a rabbi or an expert on Judaism; I'm just a traditional, observant Jew who has put in a lot of research. I work as a law librarian. I am also the co-author of several legal reference texts, including Pennsylvania Damages: Personal Injury Verdicts and Settlements. I am a member of Congregation Or Shalom, a Conservative synagogue in Chester County, PA.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:58 PM

Ho...lee...F***! No wonder Jesus came along to simplify things a little. Sheesh. 613 F-ing commandments? I feel sick just thinking about it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:07 PM

Little Hawk,

come down from the more transcendental aspects of this world for this joke (grin). Though 'Wuerstchen' could have more meanings, it doesn't matter here. The joke is based purely upon the physical aspects of a typical medium sized Gwerman Wuerstchen:

It is red, about 6 inches long (which is never long enough), mostly comes with a slight curvature, its outside is a bit wet and slippery, it has a difficult to describe taste which some people do find repulsive,... I think there's no need to go on.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:15 PM

ROTFLMAO!!! Now I see it. My problem is, I guess I don't think as visually as some people do...

Good joke, Wolfgang.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:38 PM

Sounds like a Baptist MIGHT honor a wiener dog.

I can't keep all these threads straight.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:33 PM

Carol C

I love how you frantically search the Internet in all of it's positively truthful approach to all things factual to justify your arguements, instead of in most cases, practical experience. I am familiar with the Judiasm 101 site. It is there for ones who don't have a clue.

My rabbi has talked about this every week for years. Some of these laws are so ancient and dated. i.e: "you can stone anyone who takes your sheep." In the modern world of reform Judiasm, of which dominates somewhere around 65% of all Jews worldwide, many things in the Torah are simply guidelines or used today as metaphors. In other words, there is much in today's modern world that the astute reformed Jew does take with a grain of salt.

Little Hawk, yep them big, bad Moslems and Muslims even keep Kosher dietary laws like the Jews. But the one God concept and dietary laws are obviously not enough in common for them to have hated our guts for the last 1500 years or so. Personally I just think they hate Jews and America because of how our cultures have progressed out of the 9th century and their's basically hasn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:44 PM

"Well, then, Martin, you have a lot in common with the Muslims. They only focus on the one God too. Sublime simplicity. So why all this rumpus in Palestine? :-)"

Oddly enough, I thought it was a family dispute. You see there were these two half-brothers, Isaac and Ishmael (according to most the ancestor of the Arab people and Mohammed himself)...

I also seem to remember that Mohammed forbade Mulims from harming either Jews or Christians and that Jews were treated quite well and free to practice their own religion in Jerusalem right up to the first Crusades when the Crusaders (I'm loath to call them Christians) got everyone messed up.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:58 PM

Actually, I always thought that Isaac like his corned beef sandwich on rye and Ismael liked his on an onion roll and this is where it all started.

Strick, if you seem to remember Mohammad forbad Moslims, etc., you are a lot older person here than most people realize.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM

"Strick, if you seem to remember Mohammad forbad Moslims, etc., you are a lot older person here than most people realize."

True enough, but more to the point I remember reading it in a translation of the Koran and other Islamic writings. As Jews and Christians we're "children of the book" which doesn't mean the Book of Moses or the Bible, but the book God keeps about His people. Seems like most Muslims got upset when we refused to accept them as part of God's people, too.

Three religions, one God and Abraham a central figure. If all any of us worried about what God, I don't think we'd have so much to be upset about.

As I've posted before, some Jews friends and I have an agreement. We all expect the Messiah any time now. Some of us are confused over whether this will be His first or second visit, but that's less important than the fact that He is coming.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:20 PM

As someone who had religious training as a youth, and has been active in my reform congregation for a number of years, I have never heard of the 613 commandments you mention.

Martin Gibson,

As a fellow Jew, I find it very surprising that anyone who had a Jewish education, or anyone who is active in a Jewish congregation of any denomination, would be so ignorant of something so basic.

By doing a simple Google search, CarolC was able to easily make you look very goyishe. Ouch.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:28 PM

I love how you frantically search the Internet in all of it's positively truthful approach to all things factual to justify your arguements

I don't have any opinion and I'm not making any arguments on this one, Martin. I ran across that stuff the other day while I was exploring around in the Wikipedia site, and I thought I would put it here in case you wanted to see it. I don't really care how you practice your religion.

As far as things like commandments are concerned, I have basically one concept that I try to remember in my own life, and it's hardly a commandment. That concept is this: whatever I do to another, I also do to myself. That's enough for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:41 PM

BTW, in case there is any confusion, the only words in my 14 Apr 04 - 03:51 PM post that are my own, are the ones in the first paragraph. Everything else in that post is a quote, either from the Wikipedia site, or from the Judaism 101 site, and can be found in the links I provided. I don't make any claim to being a scholar of any religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:12 PM

Goishe, my ass, C-Watch. I certainly don't feel very foolish. I actually feel very vindicated by what I said. I also know that I have a terrific rabbi who easily sorts the real from the bullshit. Are you from New York? Wouldn't surprise me. Anyway, I don't give a shit. I'm sure that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. Anyone can search for a web-site and be an instant expert. I don't have to justify to your sorry ass anything.

Go back to watching C's or whatever you do, schmuck.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:22 PM

As C-watch has said,

"As a fellow Jew, I find it very surprising that anyone who had a Jewish education, or anyone who is active in a Jewish
congregation of any denomination, would be so ignorant of something so basic."

I agree.

I also find it hard to believe that anyone who claims to have had religious training and is an active member of a congregation would stoop to the level of name-calling when he feels he might be losing an argument. Perhaps more people could hear you if you used logic and reason. Have you been vindicated or are you vindictive?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:25 PM

Goyishe = foolish? Interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

"Goyishe" is used as an adjective to describe something that is non-Jewish or is in a particularly non-Jewish context.

For example, eating a pastrami sandwich on rye bread with mustard is Jewish. Putting the pastrami on white bread with mayo is is goyishe.

Anyone who's had a Jewish education would have understood the reference to the 613 commandments. When Martin Gibson said he'd never heard of them, he looked goyishe.

There is also an expression, "goyishe kup," which is Yiddish slang for a foolish person. That wasn't really the context of my usage, but after reading Martin's latest post, maybe it should have been.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

Carol C.

I didn't lose any arguement. There was no arguement. Just because you had a Jewish boyfriend once who dumped you and you can play "Jew" in a google search doesn't mean you know squat. Except you just know how to squat.

Name calling? That's not name calling.

You're an ignorant, trailer court in the middle of nowhere Nascar T-shirt wearing ignorant goishe shiksa who spends way too much time on the Internet.

That wasn't name calling, really, either. Tale a break. Isn't Reba McIntyre's show or Hee Haw on right now?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:53 PM

Martin, what are you talking about? Where did I say you lost an argument? You're right. There wasn't any argument. If you look in my post about Jewish Law in the thread about Passover, you'll see that I have already posted pretty much the same links over there (minus the Judaism 101 link... I only posted that here because it has a list of the "commandments" in question). All I did was move that information from that thread to this one. You're right that I know almost nothing about your religion. I have no interest in getting into an argument with you about your religion.

And I don't really care what kinds of names or perjorative descriptions you can think of to call me. I know who and what I am. That's enough for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

Er, Martin, I've never had a Jewish boy friend nor did I look this up on the internet. I was aware of some of what Carol posted (nice new info, though, thanks Carol) from other sources and study. Probably should have stood up for her, but heck, I'm not an expert and thought maybe I misunderstood something. I made an oblique reference to this in the Passover thread. These commandments are what I understand to be the detail of the Law. I gather GUEST wasn't aware of them either?

What's you're beef? I don't see how this disagreement reflects on anyone. If someone posted something about Hail Mary's in answer to one of my posts, I wouldn't know what they were talking about. It doesn't make me any less Christian, just one who my religion differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

Putting the pastrami on white bread with mayo is is goyishe.

Guest, C-watch, maybe you better tell all of the goyim (I notice this is not usually capitalized) that we eat white bread with mayo. I think some of us didn't get that memo. But thanks for the explanation ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 10:04 PM

I quit.

Time to start a new thread about hot dogs or something.

Martin Gibson, out.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 10:50 PM

So, are we actually just seeing something here about the differences within Judaism (reform, Orthodox)?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,Moses Maimon
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 11:14 PM

It appears that what you're seeing has nothing to do with differences within Judaism. What you're seeing is a boorish guy (boors are present within all religious communities) who isn't as smart or as educated as he'd like everyone else to think he is, who resorts to name calling when he's embarrassed by his lack of knowledge of the very subject he'd have us think he's expert in.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 11:59 PM

I prefer rye bread or brown bread, and I'm not even Jewish! I can't stand white bread. It's lifeless, lacklustre, and uninspiring. I'm no big fan of mayonnaise either.

Strick, are you a female? I ask that, because I'd been assuming you were male for some time now. I didn't think there WERE any female Republicans, aside from a few hardbitten pros like Condoleeza Rice and Barbara Bush. :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Strick
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:06 AM

Why do you ask? Oh, I see. I've never had a Jewish boyfriend for more than one reason (besides never having been asked out by a nice Jewish boy).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:16 AM

Moses Maimon - Thanks for the reassurance. I sometimes think Martin is trying to fan the flames of anti-semitism. He has assumed a Jewish persona to hide behind his so-called Zionism. He actually assumes he is entitled to his nastiness.

Carol C - I think you took the brunt of my comments to Martin. I'm sorry he is so confused. At least he is beginning to recognize when its time to quit.

Martin - As I've said before, get your aim straight.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:27 AM

Does anyone actually know Martin in the flesh?

I get the feeling that he is an extremely lonely, history major of Jewish background trying to re-discover his roots. I would also guess that he is a spoiled, rotten brat who never had to work for anything in his life.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 03:15 AM

Holy Moly, I mean Holy Dinah, oh Holy Shit!

I just heard on the local news (BC) that on her birthday, the daughter and step-daughter of a grandmother in Vancouver; gave birth to babies on the same day - to the minute!

What are the odds - Holy Macadoochy!

Wait til you see them!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:17 AM

Martin Gibson, I would have responded earlier, but I have guests in town..I did notice that CarolC did what I would have done, which is to show you where to go online for this information...here is yet another one-(Website is titled "Judaism 101", and if you want more, just Google "Commandments of Judaism"...not all that difficult or obscure)

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

which I had bookmarked for myself a while ago, since I've been reading these on and off for most of my life, trying to make sense of why there are so many. It's because Jews like to nit-pick, especially when it comes to interpretation of the Torah. Since you are also a fan of nit-picking, it is unfathomable to me that you didn't know about this before. You say you've been studying Judaism since you were young? Hmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:42 AM

I've just gone back and read the rest of the thread. I have no idea if Martin Gibson has given up commenting or not here. If he has, that in itself is pretty interesting.

Just for anyone who cares, I was born a jew, and raised to research not only that religion but all others in the understanding that anyone who professes that theirs is the only "true religion" is someone to be wary of. I have since gone my own way, but recognize that there are worthy words and thoughts to be gleaned from many organized (or disorganized) religions, and schools of spiritual thought. That I found Orthodox Judaism to have some strange practices doesn't set them apart, but on the contrary, shows them to be as complex as any other out there.

I have focused previously in this thread on the aspect of the feminine being unclear or pretty invisible in many western religions, and if I pick on Judaism, it's perhaps because I can't forget that the Male Orthodox Jew gets up every morning of his life, puts on his Teffilin (Phylacteries) and thanks G-D he was NOT BORN A WOMAN!!!

It saddens me that MG seems so defensive about not only his knowledge (or lack thereof) of his chosen religion, but that he had to become, once again, aggressive towards those who disagreed with him. As usual, you all put up a good fight, staying reasonable and pretty darn polite.

I think Martin is a little meshuggah, and for that, we might all sympathize with the putz..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:56 AM

well, pulling back from the middle eastern conflict..

I practised a Hindu path for a decade and a half, a form of tantra. -not the physical tantra you may have read about, but various methods of meditation based on tantric tradition. During this time I meditated 4 times a day, practised yoga twice a day, and followed a semi monastic lifestyle.

The philosphy I lived and tried to experience during this time included the following beliefs:

God/Universal spirit is all pervading, and all of creation is its manifestation. this conscious, intelligent spirit emanates and perceives in/throughout everything.

While the many layered and symbolic Indian tradition promotes a pantheon of gods, images, stories and methods, ultimately, the union sought is between Shiva/Shakti (male, female). the moment of union, experienced by surrender of the ego, is union with an entity that is genderless.

and yes, as in other religions, the tantric vision of God/spirit is of a being which manifests and is love.

The meditation techniques I learnt taught me how to concentrate and focus my mind to such a degree that i could then go within, beyond my usual identity and personality, to experience that universal consciousness deep inside.

some regard eastern religions as fads, as based on superstition, or as idolatrous. I do not. an examination of various forms of religion across the globe will find variations within each form and culture, some of which can be negatively characterised by any critic.

i accept that any religious organisation can be improperly used. I also accept that in order to learn ancient beliefs, eastern or western, you need to learn from a master, or pray with a teacher.

and I also respect any person's right to experienced Universal Consciousness or God through whatever method   life and their good judgement takes them to.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 08:38 AM

Nicely, nicely writ, Freda.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM

Well, I asked my wife, who is my source for information on non-religious but semi-cultural Jewish upbringings, and she says that she never heard of something specifically called "the 613 Commandments." She was certainly aware that there are, or were, a lot of rules, mostly developed in the Middle Ages and coming out of obscure passages in the Bible. My personal read on these is that nobody today really equates growing the hair long on your temples (which is probably in there somewhere)with murder (one of the Big Ten), and it is doubtful that they ever did. That doesn't mean that rudeness is ok, whether it is one of the 613 or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 08:49 AM

Amos, you're always accepting and encouraging..
          thank you - freda


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM

The commandments are better referred to as Mitzvots, and I doubt that there are many who could begin keep up with them all. But they do cover all the important aspects of judaism. I only brought it up to indicate the complexity of most religions, though as someone above pointed out, they can all be made pretty simple in practice if one so desires...xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 10:08 AM

freda - Everything you describe in your post about Eastern religion rings true for me. I admire your discipline in applying it, and I am sure that you reaped great benefits in doing so.

The thing about Eastern spiritual disciplines is: you don't just adopt a set of beliefs about reality, you actually undertake various practices and disciplines (breathing techniques, physical exercise, meditation, contemplation, chanting, etc) which strengthen and focus the mind, body, and emotions and cause an evolutionary change in the practitioner. Far more powerful than just "believing" something!

Western religions seem to primarily address the mind...through passing on beliefs. Eastern religions address the body, mind, emotions, and spirit...in equal measure...via every available avenue. Also, Hindu sages revere Jesus as a spiritual master, an avatar. How many Christian spokesmen have revered Krishna? Not too many. The Eastern approach tends to be much more inclusive and open-minded toward other faiths...recognizing that there are many avatars, not just one.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 10:46 AM

Little hawk, my father was a Catholic who was ostracised by his large Irish australian family when he left the church. He hated hypocrisy and abuse of power. He married my mother (scottish oz protestant) and they both brought us all up without religion. My father was a fiercely committed athiest to the end, and my siblings all are as well. we all inherited a great sense of social justice from him and my mother, who was also a socially committed person.

I grew up with a view inherited from my family that western religions were based on "belief" and so were inadequate. I told myself that meditation was a technique and that i could experience something (which i did), based on my own experience and not any imposed belief system.

but then i was left with "what do i do with this" and am i going to live in a spiritual ivory tower all my life?

personal flaws, trends, in a particular religion that incensed my father do not reflect on every follower of that religion. and its clear to me that its sometimes very hard for a westerner to fully enter an eastern religion and vice versa, because we bring our own cultural "clothes" with us. we can't see that conditioning, its so deep in us.

and while eastern philosophies can be very inclusive on a theoretical level, will we ever see a Western Dalai Llama? they are both two sides of a cracked mirror, or two sides of a perfect mirror.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 10:57 AM

LH, I would strongly disagree with you about Western religions not addressing the mind and not including physical disciplines. Like any personal discipline, however, the individual has to apply it in order to reap any benefit from what is designed and intended.

My husband is a terrific example of this. I think you would enjoy discussing it with him. It certainly is part of what underlies the extraordinary calm everyone remarks upon as he arrives in the midst of emergencies, as he seeks and builds peace in the midst of controversies, and the focus he brings to celebrating the Eucharist.

It isn't something we talk about in the same terms you do, but it's there, and has been.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:13 PM

My background & religious expression is Protestant Christian. I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. definitions of Trinity:

Father-Creator & Sustainer of all things
Son-Savior, God who came to earth as an example we could understand
Holy Spirit-God w/ us to instruct & guide

Works for me.

Best to all,

bbc


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:21 PM

I was raised as a Protestant Christian also. The proposed world-view made little or no sense to me then, and things have not improved in that regard. I believe that calling in to play entities that essentially have to be generated and injecting arbitrary parameters for them and their likes and dislikes is a pretty strange way to try to find truth, or understand the Universe better, or even seek right living. It just complicates the problem to add in arbitrary datums. And as far as I can see, most models of reality held forth by organized religions are essentially nothing else. In spite of having a strong sense of spiritual nature, phenomena and such. I think Henri Bergson was far more effective than Aquinas in offering workable explanations, for example.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:21 PM

Yes, freda, they are the two sides of the coin. And, yes, Susan, Christian disciplines can also address all areas of life...it's just that for some (many?) Christians, they don't. And that's true for Easterners too. Many followers of Eastern faiths simply engage in various forms of outward rituals without working on inward change.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 02:08 PM

A general comment about religious folks as distinct from religion itself:

Where religion of any flavor goes awry is when its followers, uncomfortable with the inherent mystery of religious experience, feel they must lard it over with hard and fast dogma. Joseph Campbell once said that the greatest impediment to religious experience is established religion. When people of "faith" feel they have a direct pipeline to the Almighty (whatever they envision that to be) and feel that they have the right—or the duty—to demand that others believe and behave as they do or suffer the consequences in this life, invariably the result is the worst form of tyranny. History is full of examples. The present is full of examples.

For any kind of free society, strict separation of religious belief and secular power is an absolute necessity.

A very wise person once said, "The opposite of faith is not doubt; the opposite of faith is certainty."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:36 PM

That all depends on how broad your definition of religion is, Don. I consider people who have faith in either the Democratic or Republican parties to be DEEPLY religious, and to be acting entirely on faith. And horribly misplaced faith, I might add. :-)

Matter of fact, I consider all people to be religious. Even atheists. Even Wolfgang. Even Clinton Hammond. You just gotta find out what it is they worship or have the most faith in, that's all. Sometimes it's something as prosaic as their own ego...or money...or their sex drive. Whatever. Where a man's faith resides, there is his religion...it may or may not include "God".

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:49 PM

Ah, that's Little Hawk how we know him. Where all distinctions are blurred and words lose the usual meaning, where inanimate matter is undistinguishable from animate matter, that's where he is at home.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 05:14 PM

Life is really very, very simple, Wolfgang. People have no more basic drives than you can count on the fingers of one or at the most two hands. That's it. They clothe it in endless complexities, though, and hand out degrees on the basis of how well you can master them and repeat them...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 02:26 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 08:20 AM

Perhaps there are actually two major things being called by the same name, gentlemen. Faith in the blind form, used as a generator of darkness; and faith as a conscious alignment with the UNiverse in some way, used as a generator of new insights and understandings.

Maybe we have just run out of good words to use.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 08:33 AM

Or maybe the pace of thought and exploration has outstripped the time needed to reflect on and digest what has been shared by people who KNOW the person who was asked about, and have had daily experience with the associated phenomenena over a long period of time. I run into that a lot.

I think humans tend to seek and then avoid understanding sometimes-- we ask someone for an answer, and then go right past their answer as it heads into what we feel as the unknown-- so we can keep on looking till we make our way back to what we ourselves really thought to begin with!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,georgiansilver
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 10:13 AM

Since becoming Christian in 1991, so much has happened in my life,,,, I could not begin to recount the prayers I have had answered. I pray....with the help of the Holy Spirit, through Jesus to God...I know that works. If you have not had answer to prayer or struggle with your belief, why not take a look at what Jesus words say in the New Testament. Find a Bible with His words in red and really set out to study what is on offer. For me, it can and has to be what life is all about....Oh yes, I fail at keeping the "Commandments" Jesus re-iterated in Matthew 5.. but keep working at trying to perfect myself for Him in the true belief that it is what HE wants me to do.
Whatever works for you, great!! If you feel that emptiness I used to feel inside,,,,,if you think life is too tough for you to manage on your own...... If nothing works for you, keep seeking the truth and one day it will hit you head on.
Be Blessed!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 10:24 AM

Yes, indeed, sincere prayer works! And for that reason, people have to be quite judicious and think carefully about what they pray for...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 10:47 AM

And to whom...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,georgiansilver
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 12:33 PM

Hey Amos. My last rendering gave one suggestion...As I said, If you have something that really works for you then great..perhaps if you haven't, you might want to try something!!. Be Blessed.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 02:59 PM

For instance, I recall praying very hard to get a girl friend at one time. I got her. I spent the next 3 years putting up with/getting rid of her and some time after that regaining my sanity and peace of mind! :-) I am much more careful now about what I ask for.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 03:21 PM

GS:

Appreciate the generous sentiment, and thanks. I am well accounted for. The only empty feelings from which I suffer come from purely human causes, including scheduling of meals and hyperinflation of routine mal du coeur. I wouldn't want to fill those wiht the wrong thing, naturally.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 03:53 PM

Yeah, LH. I guess just about the only things it's really safe to "pray" for are blessings for yourself and/or others, and for the "highest good of all concerned". Everything else has the potential for unexpected (and sometimes very unpleasant) repercussions.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 04:05 PM

Darn! too late to talk to Martin. A pity - I wanted to ask him something, that I just know he would have had an answer for. Any other Jews there who can answer this?

Focusing once more on the thread title, it seems that the Holy Spirit is mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments, as early as Genesis. Not only does Gen:1 mention God's Spirit, in verse 26 it has God saying "us". Doesn't this show the presence of a Spirit and God, which together make GOD the whole? Or is it just that God gets to use the royal we?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

Maybe God means "you people and me"? Or maybe God means "all of us".


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 04:56 PM

I think it means "my lady-friend and I."


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 03:22 AM

LittleHawk - its best to only give thanks when you pray. Low risk.

If you need guidance, ask your ancestors. They already been there.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 11:33 AM

Hey Little Hawk ... was her name Nancy? I'm thinking it was the same one I met ... naaaah, probably not! CHEERS, Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:04 AM

A friend often reminds me-Ask to be given what you need, not what you think you want...xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 05:33 PM

I had thought I might not post in this thread again. It's wandered far off topic. But I ran across this in an old email today while looking for something else.

I had a vision once of the love and energy of the Holy Spirit emanating from God as a flow of undulating, rich, creaminess. Like a combination of a waterfall, cleaned and silky sheeps' wool, and calm waves-- reaching to us.

The Holy Spirit also is involved, for me, whenever a friend is in deep need and I know it responsively before they tell me, and when I know exactly what they need from me or need to hear from me before I even find out what's going on.

A source of energy and knowledge entrusted to me in an expectation to use it obediently. A strong and personal presence thanking and appreciating me when I say YES to this phenomenon, and an inner guidance as to the exact words and actions to take and NOT take. A feeling of being nudged toward the unknown and reassurance it is a safe unknown. Or a feeling of being held back when I would otherwise blunder ahead in my own faulty wisdom. A holy roadblock and sign: "STOP, DETOUR. God at Work Here."

Why do I say this is the Spirit, for me, when I know others have somewhat similar experiences? It is because I have given all that I am, to my Lord and Savior, to use as He chooses. Therefore everything in my ife is within that context. I choose to have that experience within Him, not outside Him.

How do I know when it is that Spirit seeking to use me, and not an evil one in a pretty costume? First by the spiritual gift of discernment and long interaction with this Person, and Second, by comparing what is asked and what I feel, with Scripture, especially Scriptiure about the life of Jesus. Third, by the fruits that follow. As I see the result of my obedient action over time, flowing from the action to the life of the other person and out from their life into others' lives, I am confirmed that I had the right ID for that Voice, thus reinforcing everything about the Voice and making it easier and easier to separate it out from the surrounding clamor.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:00 PM

Amen Susan.....and did you used to go into msn chat rooms...Christian ones that is..I just have this feeling we have met before...Oh and sorry...that is not a chat up line (for those cynics out there.)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:11 PM

I agree, dianavan. The wisest way to pray is to give thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:37 PM

GS, no, so probably we have not met.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:30 PM

I'm so glad you have all contributed your thoughts. The Holy Spirit certainly has many meanings. I think in its simplest terms, the Holy Spirit (ghost) may also be attributed to the resurrection of Christ. It is possibly a way of explaining the "conversation" when the rock was rolled away. In other words, God sent his son and even after crucifiction, his spirit remained to inform us.

Am I the only one who has heard the term Holy Ghost?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 12:11 AM

Old translation, dianavan, that's all. King James reads pretty but is not as accurate as its later relatives which, as I understand it, were re-researched back to the original languages. Oversimplified explanation but that's the general idee. I'm just puttin' the household Bible scholar to bed now, so that's the best I can do for now.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:27 PM

dianavan...You say His Spirit remained...but please read John chapter 15 verse 26 and you will see that the Holy Spirit...the Spirit of Truth which is here with us now..was sent later. Best wishes.
Be Blessed


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:30 PM

Thanks for starting up a great thread, dianavan.


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Subject: The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost/Spirit
From: GUEST,Who I AM
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 08:42 PM

.    For all who shall read this posting, you will be few if any, deserve, but perhaps may not be prepared to know this. The trinity is not important. Only I AM's name has power, and only when spoken. Truly, the human mind has neither the capacity nor the potential to understand I AM when leaning unto its own understanding, which its own understanding is perhaps the greatest illusion of all, the Adversary. For if humanity had the ability, would not an ultimate answer be created by humans that satisfies all who inquire? Our ways are not I AM's ways, and I AM's ways are not ours. Many have tried to explain I AM, but no one has succeeded in providing any one single explanation that will satisfy all who inquire.

    For your efforts, I offer my feeble attempt:

    I am a father, I am a son, and I am a husband. However, I am one man. I hold many titles, but those aforementioned are the ones I hold truest. Acting the part of each title, I perform different tasks, but I am the same person. None of those titles would get my individual attention, if someone were to call to me in a crowd of other men using only those titles. Try using my name. To me it is the most powerful word in the world. Call me by my name, and I will answer you.

    In the same way I AM is The Father, is The Son, and is The Holy Ghost/Spirit, titles to which when acting I AM performs individual tasks. However, I AM is one entity, and I AM has a name, and those who call it in faith, which is to believe certainly and absolutely in something that you have no proof, other than "The Word" that it exists, shall behold the power. Many cannot wield it, and perhaps that is why it is so illusive, and justly so.

    Consider yourself blessed if you read this and understand. Anyone, as proof from the many who posted to this thread, who ask humanity for answers can ultimately only get more confusion. The Word says earnestly seek wisdom, and you will find it. Wisdom is freely given by I AM, only ask for wisdom with a pure heart. Be warned, to increase knowledge is to increase sorrow. "Ignorance is bliss" and laughter is a fool's wage. Wisdom, in the form of knowledge of the gates location, combined with possession of the key, and the willingness to take and successfully make the journey to the gate are required before one can enter into the kingdom, and truly know who I AM.

    Those who read let them understand, and give to others as freely as it was given. Those who willfully do evil, confound, and do not let them give to others who willfully do evil.

In my house, peace shall reign.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 09:30 PM

Mary had a little Lamb
Whose fleece was white as snow
And every where that Mary went
The lamb was sure to go.

Discuss: In what dimensional planes and in what form did the lamb do this?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 09:43 PM

Although I am not a theologian, I would venture to say that the lamb is Mary's spirit and appears to her as a ghost.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 10:47 PM

I prefer my lamb BBQ'd and served with feta and fresh tomatos.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 11:33 PM

Heros to the left of me,
Gyros to the right of me,
Volleyed and Thundered....


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 12:01 AM

Maybe this Holy Trinity describes the original act of creation. Father, son, holy spirit. When a neutron decays it becomes a proton, an electron and a neutrino. The proton is the father, the electron is the son, and the neutrino is a ghostly particle with no rest mass and is the Holy Spirit that binds father and son into an ineffable whole. When the neutron decayed, it formed the simplest hydrogen atom--an electron and proton. The earliest form of matter as we know it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 12:17 AM

...they left out the Mother/Goddess! Without the Mother all is out of balance.

Oh, my sheroes have always been...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 01:57 AM

Among Catholic priests, it's generally agreed that the two toughest days of the year for preparing a sermon are the Feast of the Holy Trinity and the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (Mary being born sinless - has nothing to do with virginity).

Most Christians accept the doctrine of the Trinity because it's in the New Testament, most specifically at the end of the Gospel of Matthew - but what can you say about God being Trinity that piques anybody's interest? Same with Mary's sinlessness.

Karen Armstrong says it's an Eastern Christian tradition to define God only in paradoxes - and thus to demonstrate the inherent undefinability of God. The Trinity certainly defies definition, though many have tried.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:33 AM

By now you will have read many descriptions of what the Blessed Trinity is to each of us. To know what it is and to explain it to someone else, requires a little thought but it can be done. To truly understand it however, requires a leap of faith. A huge leap when you consider that someone, not unlike ourselves, had to claim authorship on the whole idea, long, long ago.
So now, what is is?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Alec
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:49 AM

Confusion caused by the concept of the holy ghost taking the form of a dove descending led the Carib Indians to conclude,when first encountering Christian missionaries,that Christians worshipped Pigeons.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:56 AM

An understandable assumption. Wrapping the misleading inside the incomprehensible is a good way to perpetuate a boondoggle. Makes it hard to see through.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,GS
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 03:47 AM

Yes I guess we all have the means to put things wrongly and be misleading....every one of us eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: John O'L
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:05 AM

How pure and still the Tao is, as if it would ever so continue!
I do not know whose son it is. It might appear to have been before God.

- J. Legge's translation of the Tao Te Ching by Lao-tzu




I guess that clears things up then, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:40 AM

C, F, and G7

I was confirmed whilst I was still A minor.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:29 AM

Looked at but cannot be seen - it is beneath form;
Listened to but cannot be heard - it is beneath sound;
Held but cannot be touched - it is beneath feeling;
These depthless things evade definition,
And blend into a single mystery.

In its rising there is no light,
In its falling there is no darkness,
A continuous thread beyond description,
Lining what can not occur;
Its form formless,
Its image nothing,
Its name silence;
Follow it, it has no back,
Meet it, it has no face.

(Lao Tzu)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Alec
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:37 AM

Sounds like Blair's integrity.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:45 AM

:-) !!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 07:34 PM

Beautiful, freda, thanks for posting it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,mack
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:10 PM

how does the holy spirt work as father son and holy spirt.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:35 PM

durn...here he says, "I AM BUT ONE"
It's so hard to keep track.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 06:06 PM

you have to have a shamrock and then you look at the three leaves. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:26 AM

I think I get it!

Father = God

Son = Jesus

Holy Ghost = The Resurrection (the Spirit of Christ)

Naw...Thats too complicated and it leaves Mary out of the picture.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,Bill in Oregon
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 02:42 AM

The Holy Spirit I believe is a group of three souls that watch over us on an individual basis of each one of us. I think we with them make up a group of four to a team of sorts. We are the fourth member of the team. This is why you may see a four grouping is used in many anceint symbols such as the Egieptian cross The regualar cross itself is a symbol with three points in the air, represents our Holy Spirits in heaven watching us and the fourth one in the ground represents us as the fourth member in the ground of Earth.

Bill in Oregon


very negative inspiration. AN OPEN LETTER TO HATE GROUPS
From Bill and his Holy Spirit Racing Team

This is a letter to help you realize why you think you need to hate others for a specific reasons that you think makes perfectly good sense. If you are very comfortable with doing this hate to others because you are presented this information in the form of inspirations from your Holy Spirits in Heaven.
I believe a force of three beings with souls that one could be a twin of our own and the other two a twin soul unto themselves that all watch over us on a individual basis and also give us many test of sorts to go through. This is probably one of your major test for this life. I believe their inspirations are both bad and good. Some of these inspirations we are meant to take on because these test have to be taken to bring about a change from within our own soul so that it may develop into a loving nature that helps others at our will. I believe we are meant to have many trials in our lives from our personal team of Holy Spirits and are probably are best friends of all time. They this same three have probably been with us from the beginning of all known time. Yours trails this life may be to hate others for one reason or another. If you concentrate and say I will not hate anyone no matter what your inspirational force will do or no matter how the offending person may try to bother you. You should not judge that offending person because he or she may also being pulled emotionally by their Holy Spirits to new hatred levels and so it really is not the person you see but their Holy Spirit force moving them in wild directions within them so try not to judge them and forgive them and try to settle them down in a calm cool voice!!! not be able to change your point of view ,but if you let them make you think it is all right in your mind then they can take you to new levels of hate at a increasing rate. I hope you consider this good information because your inspirational force may be blocking your thoughts of reason as you read this. So please consider keeping a copy of this and read it once in awhile and see if it might help you think of changing from a hater to a people lover. Try to remember that you do not to be a hater to win and that might help you


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:17 AM

What we know of God, the Judeo-Christian God we know from the Bible. The conclusion is that ours is a revealed knowledge, God Himself the reveal-er. Without getting into the separation between the Jews and the Christians and the ancient debate between the Old Testament (The Torah) and the New Testament I'll try and cover some of the basic concepts and when I have a little more time, come back to this topic.

Christians believe that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God, i.e. The Holy Spirit inspired human writers to write what they did. Many of us, for that reason, hold the Bible as our only source of authority. One of the great schisms between Protestants and Roman Catholics is that the Catholics hold that when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra (from the throne) his word has equality or ascendancy over scripture.

Genesis 1 speaks of the Spirit of God brooding over the face of the deep during creation. There are many instances of His Spirit in the OT as well as what are known as epiphanies where God has come to certain persons in bodily form. The story of Abraham on the Plains of Mamry is one of the most notable instances. When Jesus was baptised, John saw the Holy spirit descending as a dove or like a dove. At the same time a voice came from heaven saying "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." This presents a picture of what is termed the "Trinity" though THAT word never appears in scripture. Elsewhere Jesus teaches that God IS a Spirit and that God is Love. He goes on to describe the extent of that Love toward a lost and dying Humanity. When the disciples asked Jesus to show them the Father, Jesus replied "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. This is the essence of the mystery of the Godhead, the Three in One. All are present in the Son, in the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that God is omnipresence and also that all things consist by Him. He, His Spirit holds the universe together and He is everywhere in the universe but He is NOT the universe: IT is his creation.

Jesus said that all manner of sin and blasphemy against the Father and the Son may be forgiven but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven. This is known as the unpardonable sin. When Peter made his great confession of faith and declared that Jesus was the Son of the Living God, Jesus said "Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah (Peter was his nickname and actually translates "Rocky") for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you (that is the physical man, Jesus) but my Father which is in heaven." The reason that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unpardonable is that once Christ (which means "The Anointed One" i.e. anointed by the Holy Spirit) is revealed for who he really is to your soul, God has done all He will ever do to offer you salvation. If you reject Him after such a revelation there is nothing more He can do or perhaps that He will do. This doesn't mean that you can't opt later but your soul is at great risk at that point. Compare this thought with John chapter 9 and especially verse 37 to the end.

There are some very interesting etiologies of the word "spirit" (Greek "pneuma" and Hebrew "nephesh") and the development of the Occidental mind but those are really just asides. I hope I have shed a little light on the fundamental Christian perspective on the question.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:46 PM

I think we would know God better if we were to spend more time finding our inner dimensions, not looking for outer ones; for verily, the Kingdom is within ye.

I also think that the infinite is not going to express itself in a vocabulary predicated on common agreed-upon and mutually held space-time forms. That is, a finite and material universe is highly likely to generate a vocabulary that does not in fact provide access (or even immediate reference) to the unbounded and the non-material.

As a result, I have very little to offer a thread such as this, which I think is a great pity.

:D


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:52 AM

I take it this is from Slag. Slag (or whoever), if you post without a name, you risk having your message deleted. By rights, I should have deleted this one.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

    Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
    From: GUEST
    Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:53 AM

    Amos! I have to agree with you! In large part at any rate. The human vocabularies are all metaphorical and are part of the time and three dimensional universe which they aprehend, analyze and negotiate. Indeed the words of Man can only take one so far. They can lead you to the point where faith becomes the expdient. To experience God's Word, THE Word is an ineffable experience. When it came down to it even the Apostle Paul could not frame it in human tongue (II Cor 12:4).

    Nonetheless, I believe that God did inspire the word, His Holy Bible and has maintained its presence in our world to lead men unto Himself. And this is an individual choice I have made. His word says the His sheep her His voice and they follow Him. Those who do not hear His voice have no part in Him. Most of the weight of this thread is about what ideas these various folk bring to the subject and yet the original question arises because of what the Bible teaches about the existence of God and the Holy Ghost, that is, the Spirit. So it is to the Bible I have turned to try to give a definitive answer. If you want to believe something else that is certainly your priviledge, more so, your right but then you are speaking of something different than the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:03 AM

...or the Cookie Monster, for that matter.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: coldjam
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM

Couple of comments I would like to add,

Jesus taught in pictures a lot for a reason, it helps us understand.
The picture of the trinity (a word introduced by Christians and NOT in the scriptures) or the concept of God in three parts as it were, that has helped me to begin to understand, is that of water.

If you take a pool of water, extract some and freeze it, it becomes solid. Take a bit more and heat it and it becomes steam. Now it is still the same quantity of the same stuff only in 3 different forms.

I've also heard it expressed as the parts of an egg.(To the carnal mind of course this is all foolishness, so be prepared for that.)

The "three" (triune) thing is used over and over in creation. As are many patterns of the creator and creation. All to teach us stuff-if we want.

The feminine thing in the Bible is pretty cool too. It was not "left out" of the God equation. No absence of the feminine force (but remember, scripture tells us there is no male and female in the spirit world as we know it.) There is much made in the Word about the Church being the Bride. The body of Christ is the feminine(not Jesus). There is much teaching about the preciousness and value of her. The scripture speaks a lot about this concept. No feminist should miss checking it out.

For my Jewish friend "oncefamous", all I can say is "Oy". If you need mention of the Spirit of God in the Hebrew Scriptures read the accounts of Samuel or Elijah or Elisha. I am half Jewish, and even to me Reform is to Judism what Unity is to Christianity. No disrespect to my Reform or Unity friends, it just is what it is, and ain't what it ain't. Judism is deep, full of meaning (daily and prophetically) and dare I say "ponderous"? To keep the law is a full-time job. Anything less is, well, NOT keeping the law. To disregard it, or change it for convenience is some other made up religion or watered down Judism. Which you have every right to follow if you wish. I am not trying to condemn you, or hurt your feelings-just saying what I observe. If you can shed some light on it, I'd like to see/hear it.

Finally, to Wysiwyg-good explanation!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:34 PM

There sure are a lot of "I believe that"s stuck into this discussion.

Very few have any indication of WHY you "believe". There is an unspoken suggestion in most of those posts that "you should believe the same". Otherwise, why bother explaining it?

I believe that most 'beliefs' of this nature are unfounded and contrived....but hey...as long as it keeps you busy and out of trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:07 PM

From the catechism of the RCC:
The Father and the Son revealed by the Spirit

243 Before his Passover, Jesus announced the sending of "another Paraclete" (Advocate), the Holy Spirit. At work since creation, having previously "spoken through the prophets", the Spirit will now be with and in the disciples, to teach them and guide them "into all the truth".68 The Holy Spirit is thus revealed as another divine person with Jesus and the Father.

244 The eternal origin of the Holy Spirit is revealed in his mission in time. The Spirit is sent to the apostles and to the Church both by the Father in the name of the Son, and by the Son in person, once he had returned to the Father.69 The sending of the person of the Spirit after Jesus' glorification70 reveals in its fullness the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

245 The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381): "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father."71 By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as "the source and origin of the whole divinity".72 But the eternal origin of the Spirit is not unconnected with the Son's origin: "The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is God, one and equal with the Father and the Son, of the same substance and also of the same nature. . . Yet he is not called the Spirit of the Father alone,. . . but the Spirit of both the Father and the Son."73 The Creed of the Church from the Council of Constantinople confesses: "With the Father and the Son, he is worshipped and glorified."74

246 The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)". The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: "The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration. . . . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."75

247 The affirmation of the filioque does not appear in the Creed confessed in 381 at Constantinople. But Pope St. Leo I, following an ancient Latin and Alexandrian tradition, had already confessed it dogmatically in 447,76 even before Rome, in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, came to recognize and receive the Symbol of 381. The use of this formula in the Creed was gradually admitted into the Latin liturgy (between the eighth and eleventh centuries). The introduction of the filioque into the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed by the Latin liturgy constitutes moreover, even today, a point of disagreement with the Orthodox Churches.


248 At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father's character as first origin of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he "who proceeds from the Father", it affirms that he comes from the Father through the Son.77 The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). It says this, "legitimately and with good reason",78 for the eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as "the principle without principle",79 is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds.80 This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed.


Clear as mud to me.

I was taught that the father begot the son who had always existed and the love between the two shows itself as the holy spirit.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Slag
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:24 PM

Yes Joe, Yes Amos it IS the COOKIE Monster. I keep dropping my cookies. New machine (3rd one) and its a hummer but I've been having security-ware issues and my cookies keep getting erased. Thanks for not deleting post above. 'Twas Slag's indeed. I find this thread very interesting, honest and revealing.

That said, I just want to point out that there is much history involved in the question at hand and I do appreciate those who have done their homework and are not just shooting from the hip. The development of Christian thought and that of the western mind are forever interlinked and an examination of religious history sheds light on modern history and tomorrow's history. The great heresies and schisms are also reflected in the development of philosophy and scientific thought. Whether it is St. Thomas Aquinas or John Stuart Mills, Socrates or Jesus there is a dynamic that results from the tensions that propel us to take ever sharper focus and refinement in our understanding of all things spiritual, all things material and all things temporal. Good job (most) all, good thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:08 PM

"my cookies keep getting erased"

That's 'usually' a matter of settings in your browser. Maybe it is set to delete cookies on exit.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:57 PM

The development of Christian thought and that of the western mind are forever interlinked

That may be true on a casual inspection, but I sincerely doubt the roots of the western mind have more than a passing association with the history of Christianity, as a sort of temporary load in memory. As a metaphor, if you write a religious doctrine up on your word-processor, and it explains the whole universe and everything in it, you could easily assert that the roots of computer technology are intimately tied to the ramifications of your religious doctrine. But to the computer the whole universe of explanation and historical exegesis you have created is just a passing load in RAM, and some space somewhere in the hard disk landscape, nothing more.

But it is a very limited metaphor==the mind being much more creative and unbounded than RAM.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Slag
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:44 AM

Thanks Bill D. Only that I were a little more computer-literate!

Amos! You are an intelligent person! That is like saying Siddartha or Lao Tze only had a passing association with the developement of the Oriental mind! Unbelieveable! Also,I must point out, the computer is not a self-aware entity and does not regard anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:24 AM

The holy ghost might mean the same thing as inspiration.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:36 AM

I think I've made my own beliefs clear elsewhere, and so I'm probably not qualified fior this thread, but I would recommend to you Queen Elizabeth I's response when asked her opinion on an equally thorny problem, the Real Presence:

Christ was the Word that spake it:
He took the bread and brake it:
And what His word doth make it,
That I believe and take it.

I bet God really regretted letting the Greeks get hold of Christianity.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:37 AM

Slag:

I was making a distinction between the functions of the mind and its contents. While many libraries have many books about Christianity, for example, it is perfectly possible to have a very embracive, rich library with absolutely no books on Christianity in it, and it will still be a good library.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Slag
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:20 PM

Agreed Amos. But! (and there it is, the little driver of all things, so it seems :E)) But, the letters, the words, patterns and biases bare a subtle influence or stronger upon those otherwise godless works. Consider the word "electricity". There is a connection to the Greek word for sheep but what really does sheep have to do with a scientific word? Well it's front-loaded with science but it's roots are still embedded in antiquity. Of course the choice was made because of the earliest observance of electric phenomena was picking up static charge from wool to an amber rod. With the dawning comes morning and mourning become Elektra. :D sorry about that. Did you know that the word check, in every nuance traces back to the game of chess? It's true.

So, while we may divorce ourselves form belief in the divine we cannot deny the influence that the concept (think of all the words that have "-cept" [to grasp] in them) of divinity, be it Grecco-Roman of Jewish. It may be a question of degrees in the individuals' mind but it is inescapably there. And history demonstrates a not-so-subtle influence: holy wars, Crusades, Aryanism, Jonestown and the Hale/Bopp cult to mention just a few.

Along the line of the original question (...what is 'spirit'?) I find it most amazing that virtually every band and tribe on earth, no matter how primitive had a concept of spirit. Virtually universal.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:47 PM

My point exactly, Slag. The universal function of the mind manifests itself in tribes completely untouched by Western etymology. The mind of a Western person is certainly likely to be cluttered up with all kinds of symbols and connections associated with Christianity's timelien, but that is not its basic nature; that is its content.

And to go one step further, the etymological legacies of which you speak are, in their nature, imposed laws of associative logic. That which DOES the associating, though, is as different from those rules and linkages as G.W. Bush is separate from some long-ago lifetime as a Buddhist ascetic in the 3rd century....WAY separate. :D


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:07 PM

The most interesting thing I learned reading through this thread is that "Martin Gibson" apparently didn't quit and go away a couple of years back ~ he just changed his name to "Once Famous."

Or did he truly quit, and then someone else put in the name-change just to purge the name "Martin Gibson" from all Mudcat archives, including old threasd like this one?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Slag
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:15 PM

Maybe his next incarnation will be Gretsch Carvin???!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:05 PM

The earliest post credited to "Once Famous" is dated April '04, and the most recent is dated May '06. That's in the entire Mudcat archive, as revealed by clicking on the name ~ not just in this thread,

Was Martin Gibson's tenure among us really only two years long? Seemed like damn near forever...

His contributions to this thread were clearly posted under the name Martin Gibson when they first appeared ~ that's obvious from other people's comments. So I conclude that most, if not all, of the archived messages currently attributed to Once Famous originally bore the name Martin Gibson.

I can't tell which, if any, of the most recent "Once Famous" posts may have originally appeared under the revised name of Once Famous. In other words, did MG change his handle and then continue posting (however briefly) under the revised name? Or did he change his name as a sort of good-bye gift, and immediately quit participating?

Or did someone else impose a "posthumous" name-change after he had gone for good ~ perhaps out of sympathy for those who were so grieviously insulted by MG that the mere sight of his name would be somehow traumatic?

Curiouser and curiouser...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:15 PM

FWIW, and nothing to do with this thread, if a user changes his posting name, ALL his past posts will automatically reflect the new name.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Slag
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:42 AM

Kinda like, uh, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 11:21 AM

FWIW, and nothing to do with this thread, if a user changes his posting name, ALL his past posts will automatically reflect the new name.

That's true, if the member changes it him/herself by editing her/his member info, but it's also been done another way by request to Joe Offer-- where the old posts remain as originally credited (perhaps with the addition of ("inactive") in the posting name, and then the member starts a new membership with a new screen name.

I've done both. Originally-"Praise" posts all automatically became "WYSIWYG" posts, and an alternative ego "Sugar Dog" became inactive. I think someone else's posts became "New Name (Formerly Old Name)" posts. At another forum, "banned" members' posts and PMs can be disappeared entirely, or their membership name may remain visisble but their password has been changed by mods so they can never log in again or get to PMs. The approach depends on software, mod style, and policies.

Mudcat, as in so many other respects, is a little more creative-- it's The Folky Effect. The key is, if you want to change your membership here, you might want to TALK TO JOE. The Mudcat membership policies are in the FAQ. The potential application in individual circumstances can be explored.

=====


Back to the thread. I just saw an NHL news-blurb that captures, for me, the BEST way to refer to one's spirituality in mixed company:

Forward Tyler Kennedy said the two minutes he spent in the penalty box near the end of the third period against the Islanders on Thursday were "the longest of [his] life." The Penguins held a 3-2 lead when Kennedy was called for hooking with 3:12 remaining in regulation.

"You have no idea how nerve-racking it is," Kennedy said. "As a rookie, you do not want to be in the [penalty] box in that situation. I was praying to anybody that could help me out that [the Islanders] would not tie [the score]. Somebody must be looking over my shoulder. Maybe my grandma."



I think he was joking, but IMO it's actually a great model to emulate.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,thebecker
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM

the holy spirit is the one who goes to god with our prayrs, so to speak. and when you pray for the baptism of the holy spirit you pretty much asking for a free tickt as an easy way to talk to god.

not that you need the holy spirit to talk to god, you can do that on your own.

but what the holy spirit does is prays for you thru you(tongues) so that its not so jumbled with the clumsy speach of humans.

the holy spirit is just a faccet of god, one that christians can use to their advantage when they want to pray for other people, themselves or difficult situations we just cant pray about on our own.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Slag
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:54 PM

Susan, I am reminded of the story of the ten lepers whom Jesus healed. They all ran off delighted to be free from what, I am sure, they considered the ultimate affliction which could only end in a horrible death. Only one return to acknowledge the healer.

The "foxhole" mentality of many who make prayer a last resort is surely an insult to the one who laid down His life for them that they might be saved. And to just pray to anyone who might be listening is further insult. Could it be the One whose name you (rhetorical "you" of course) use as a by-word dozens of times a day? "Jesus Christ" or Jesus "H" Christ" or "Jesus *&*%^%$*& Christ". Or maybe the Deity Himself, as in "GD" or "OMG" or other such epithets. Are you going to pray to Him when the time comes? Well, maybe for something as important as a hockey game, He will understand and make allowances.

Oh, that's right. You don't REALLY believe in Him. That makes it OK. You couldn't be held responsible for something you didn't believe in or that you weren't sure of, right? Do you understand what it means to take the name of God in vain? Exactly what I have enumerated in the foregoing. Well, that's your choice, then and God definitely gives us a choice. He also tells us that a day is coming when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ IS Lord of all, whether you believe it or not.

If you are going to pray, know him to whom you are praying.


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Mudcat time: 22 April 3:57 PM EDT

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