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BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?

Once Famous 10 Apr 04 - 08:28 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 10 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Apr 04 - 08:44 PM
Once Famous 10 Apr 04 - 08:47 PM
Once Famous 10 Apr 04 - 08:52 PM
CarolC 10 Apr 04 - 08:55 PM
CarolC 10 Apr 04 - 08:57 PM
Rapparee 10 Apr 04 - 09:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Apr 04 - 09:05 PM
wysiwyg 10 Apr 04 - 09:16 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 10 Apr 04 - 09:38 PM
wysiwyg 10 Apr 04 - 09:40 PM
Ebbie 10 Apr 04 - 09:54 PM
Mark Clark 10 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 10 Apr 04 - 10:31 PM
Franz S. 10 Apr 04 - 10:37 PM
Mark Clark 10 Apr 04 - 11:16 PM
catspaw49 11 Apr 04 - 12:59 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 11 Apr 04 - 01:05 AM
Haruo 11 Apr 04 - 01:17 AM
Strick 11 Apr 04 - 01:42 AM
Mark Clark 11 Apr 04 - 04:05 AM
Mr Red 11 Apr 04 - 05:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Apr 04 - 06:00 AM
George Papavgeris 11 Apr 04 - 06:59 AM
kendall 11 Apr 04 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,C-watch 11 Apr 04 - 08:29 AM
GUEST 11 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM
Coyote Breath 11 Apr 04 - 09:26 AM
Rapparee 11 Apr 04 - 09:57 AM
Strick 11 Apr 04 - 10:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 Apr 04 - 10:57 AM
kendall 11 Apr 04 - 11:58 AM
kendall 11 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM
Once Famous 11 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM
Mark Clark 11 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM
GUEST 11 Apr 04 - 01:52 PM
Once Famous 11 Apr 04 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart 11 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart 11 Apr 04 - 05:09 PM
Strick 11 Apr 04 - 05:22 PM
Once Famous 11 Apr 04 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart 11 Apr 04 - 05:50 PM
Once Famous 11 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Shlio 11 Apr 04 - 06:51 PM
Mark Clark 11 Apr 04 - 07:16 PM
GUEST 11 Apr 04 - 07:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Apr 04 - 08:16 PM
Once Famous 11 Apr 04 - 08:32 PM
Rapparee 11 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM
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Subject: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:28 PM

I appreciate the trys by all to explain to me some things in the Good Friday thread, but it got me thinking more about it all.

As is the case with most Jews, there is not a lot of use for the New Testament. We are quite happy with the Old Testament and the teachings of the Torah. What I do not understand is if most Christians are very quick to point out Jesus was a Jew, Christian events like Good Friday being based on the Jewish calender, the "Father" in the holy trinity being God (as in the God of the Hebrews), and the old testament being part of the Christian religion, why don't Christians also celebrate the holidays of the old testament such as Passover, Purim, Chanukah,etc.

Hey, if it wasn't your ancestors also who were freed from Egypt, just who were your ancestors?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM

More Christians celebrate the Jewish Holidays than you realize, Martin. That's probably true more of Hannukah than Passover, though. For much of my life, I've celebrated Hannukah, and because we have two Muslim sons, we've become more familiar with Ramadon and respect the dietary limitations of our Muslim family members. It may be my ignorance, but there seems to be more visually familiar aspects of Hannukah than of Passover. Even Hannakuh cards and a lot of attention in the media.

I'd appreciate it if you would share more of how you celebrate Passover, Martin.

Educate me.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:44 PM

Easter is Passover, in principle. Readings about the Passover are included in the services, and there are numerous references to it throughout the liturgy I'm familiar with.

Of course it'd make a lot of sense if a common date could be agreed so that the dates always coincided, to bring that out. Logical thing would be for everyone to agree to adopt the Jewish date, however that's worked out. Maybe that'll happen sometime - trouble would be getting different varieties of Christians to agree on that. And I imagine there might be some Jews who didn't really like the idea either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:47 PM

Jerry

If you don't know what is going on in the picture of The Last Supper I can only go............. Huh?

Anyone else who is a bit more mainstream please, and does not want to answer my questions with a tap dance of more questions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:52 PM

McGrath, I don't get your analogy.

Passover is the freeing of the Jewish slaves from ancient Egypt. It is more remembered, than celebrated as the benign effect of the 10th plague on the first born of the Jews.

It has nothing at all to do with the death of Jesus and his alleged resurrection from the dead, other than this event coincided with the Passover event that had happened, I assume, generations before in a different place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:55 PM

I do not practice or belong to any form of organized religion myself, but I do have Christian ancestors. Their ancestors (Gauls, Kelts, and various Germanic and Nordic peoples of pre-Christian Europe) were of the "Old Religion". That was the religion (a form of Paganism) that could get you burned at the stake by Christians in Europe and in the colonies of the New World. Many of the Christian holiday traditions were copied from this religion, the Christmas tree being one example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:57 PM

My post was in answer to this question of yours:

Hey, if it wasn't your ancestors also who were freed from Egypt, just who were your ancestors?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:00 PM

I was invited to, and attended, seder last year.

My ancestors came from the Celtic/Germanic areas of Europe, as far as I know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:05 PM

As you've noticed Martin, the Last Supper is a Passover Meal, and the Last Supper is central to Easter services. And as I indicated, Easter Services include Old Testament accounts of the first Passover, and make numeous references to the events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:16 PM

The last Supper is not exactly representative of how people actually sat at table in those times, is it? It's art, not a newspaper photo. :~)

Martin, many Episcopal Churches organize seders. I suppose we don't quite recognize Passover in the official church calendar, except as it relates to the events of Holy Week.... but the Episcopal Church, when it left the Roman, went back to Jewish traditions, theology, and liturgy and then came forward in time, through the early church fathers, for continued develolpment of its theological underpinnings. Our theologians wove in from the Greek sources too.

I'm very frustrated trying to address your current and recent questions, because they are good ones, but I feel so poorly educated in these basic matters. It's a failing of our denomination, which my husband (a true scholar) and I (a true student) are trying to address in the adult ed and ministry prep classes we teach. But anyway, you might be surprised at the extent to which our churches are built on a foundation you might well recognize as familiar in some ways.

In one class we co-teach (EFM, or Education for Ministry), the material on Liturgics makes a lot of reference to early temple practices and describes how we retain much of these in today's liturgies. Similarly, some commentaries we commonly use open a window on the Jewish forms of worship to give a wider view of what we do today in our churches, and why, and I often rely on this kind of informative help when exegeting a Scripture text.

And, just as Jewish culture is more than religion, or as religion is more than religiosity and includes culture for many Jews, I find that the best commentaries for the Bible are those that are faithful to the word-pictures and shadings of meaning in the original languages.... to shed light on the worldview of the first Christians (Jews) and on the flavor of daily life, whether specifically religious in content or not, is fascinating to me. I'm still transfixed by the translation in my Pentateuch, for God creating the earth and His breath on it, for instance.

We are immersed in the OT in public and personal devotions. Every Sunday communion service includes readings from the OT and the Psalms, and these inform the sermon and how we look at the week's Gospel and Epistle lessons. Clergy and many other folk use morning and evening forms of prayer from the monastic tradtion, and an OT lesson is included daily.

The Episcopal Church has a long tradition of looking deep, going beyond whatever translation of Scripture one might happen to use as a reference. Thus we avoid a literal, fundamentalist understanding of Scripture, and hope to encounter the mind of God as He would have us know it.

How do we do this? In addition to going back to original languages to expand our understanding when we can, or to the degree one's individual state of learning and reference materials allow, we look at Scripture in the light of both form and source criticism. ("Criticism" is used here in the sense of study.)

In source criticism, we look at what can be known from understanding who wrote the text and why, and when, and what it might have signified in its time. For the OT this is very much with Jewish culture and history in mind.

In form criticism, we look at the literary form used for the portion of text in question, and we understand that some forms reflect a message meant to be taken literally and some indicate a poetic message meant to be taken as metaphor, symbol, image... and so forth. Some passages are Law, or history; some are stories told to build us up or inspire us to think on certain things.

I participated for a time in a Torah study group, and I love how the studies I can do today are a lot like the Torah group in terms of process, respect for commentary, and constant attention to application of the text to our lives today-- learning for living one's life, not learning for the sake of learning.

I hope to get better and more articulate about responding to your questions. I might not always have a useful answer when you ask, but I keep thinking about questions people have raised, and you never know, I might eventually have something useful to pass along.

I very much appreciate what I think is the spirit in which you ask your questions. I would enjoy worshipping with you.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:38 PM

Hey, Martin: Of course I know the representations of the Last Supper... even though they are a European visualization of a meal that was not eaten sitting in chairs at a table. And as has been pointed out, references to Passover are interwoven in the Holy Week observances.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:40 PM

I forgot to say-- you are right, Martin, we don't actually and authentically celebrate the Jewish holidays. I'll ask Hardi why we don't, and when and why the Church stopped observing them way back whenever it was.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:54 PM

I have a relative who is a member of the Worldwide Church of God (the Herbert Armstrong variety, in case that means anything to you). I believe they observe all or at least most of the Jewish holidays.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

Hi, Martin, Perhaps I can answer your question.

Christians (excepting Susan and Hardi <g>) have mostly forgotten that what we celebrate is Passover. The word Easter [A.S. Eastre] is the name of a pagan goddess of spring and has no roots in Christianity. Easter is probably where we get the eggs, bunnies and other fertility symbols. The Christian name for the Feast Day of the Resurrection is Pascha, a Greek word meaning Passover. To Christians, Pascha is the new Passover. (Greek was the lingua franca of the Near East at the time of Christ and most of the New Testament was originally written in Greek.)

Remember that Christianity began as a sect of Judaism. The Jews were (are) expecting a Messiah. Those Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah didn't stop being Jews, they thought it was just the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. They would go to Temple on Friday evening along with everyone else but would stay after the usual services to offer additional prayers and chants that were being developed to honor the Messiah.

In the original Passover, the firstborn of Israel were saved from the Angel of Death by the blood of the lamb that was sacrificed for the purpose of marking the doors of the houses of Israel. In Christian theology, Christ is the Sacrifice—the Lamb of God—and it is through His blood that Christian believers are also “saved from death” through the promise of salvation. You recall that the Last Supper was thought to have been the last Sader of the Jewish Passover. The Christian Feast of the Resurrection is called Pascha (Passover) because it gives a renewed (Christian) meaning to the ancient Feast Day but the new meaning is very close to the original meaning, salvation from death through the Blood of the Lamb.

When the Apostle Paul came along, he evidently found it was pretty tough attracting converts if they first had to be circumcised as Jews. And since many Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, Christianity developed the idea that the Christian Church was the “New Israel.” Over time, Christians stopped celebrating the Jewish Passover altogether, keeping only Holy Pascha, the New Passover in its place.

As far as I know, there is no reason why Christians couldn't also celebrate the Jewish Passover today; at least those Christians who still feel some connection with Judaism. The term Christianity is now applied to groups with widely divergent beliefs and sadly, as we've seen, some of them are even anti-Semitic.

Hope this helps.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:31 PM

That's an excellent response, Mark..

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Franz S.
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:37 PM

As has been said Christians do celebrate Passover. I had my bris, but was raised more or less a Quaker, married to a Catholic. Etc., etc.

I've attended many seders over the years, A majority were in the Jewish family tradition, but a significant minority were among Christians of various denominations, the most recent Catholic. To my surprise, some of the Christians ones even had their own liturgies, rewritten more or less extensively to accomodate a different theology. My impression was that they werecomfortable with assimilation and syncretism as long as it was others assimilating to them. I don't doubt their sincerity. But it's sort of like the time I attended mass with a small group of Catholics in a hotel bar. The priest, about as liberal as they come, wondered later why I didn't accept communion.   The idea that if he was generous enough to offer communion to a non-Catholic I shoudn't be grateful enough to accept it was something he didn't seem to be able to comprehend.   The same flavor has infused most of the Christian seders I've attended. The ritual has been adapted to Christian theology, with a common assumption that that is a noble concession on their part.

Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:16 PM

It might be interesting to note that in the Eastern Orthodox Church (the oldest surviving Christian tradition) the Liturgy is structured roughly on the model of those first Christians. Everything is chanted, either by the Priest, the chanters (cantors) or the a capella choir, and the service begins with Psalms and Old Testament readings that would probably sound very familiar to Orthodox Jews. Following the Psalms and Old Testament readings and prayers, the Christian (New Testament) part of the service begins. It's much the way the earliest Christians might have done it.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 12:59 AM

Far too complex for those of us with below average intelligence and even lower interest levels. For those in my group, I suggest we all get good and drunk and celebrate Passout instead.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:05 AM

Martin, I think that over time they forgot what the message was about and so lost it! Good example is the Sabbath, which was moved from the correct day - our saturday - to sunday.

A reading of the NT can show one that A there is no recommendation to stop the old practices and B absolutely no reason to stop following the Law. In fact that was one of the central themes of the message.

BTW I always think of the man as a Rabbai, not a Christian preacher which I am certain would appear very strange to him... lol.

About the rest of humanity and the Jewish people, I read that they are descended from Noah and as such have their own unique laws and ways.
Abraham OC came out of Uruk where he lived, which today is Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Haruo
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:17 AM

Martin Gibson wrote "If you don't know what is going on in the picture of The Last Supper I can only go............. Huh?" By which I presume you mean that the supper in question was a Passover meal, a seder. But you seem not to realize that that very same meal was (or at least is held to have been) the institution of a new observance, or a new "reading" of the Passover observance, namely what most Christians regularly observe under names like "Eucharist", "Lord's Supper", "Holy Communion". Historically, most Christians have seen the TaNaKh largely as a typological presaging, a foreshadowing or even a fore-enacting of the saving/liberating life and death of Jesus. Thus, every eucharistic celebration (and virtually all Christian assemblies have them) can be seen as, in a sense pertinent to Christian theologizing, a Passover celebration.

I have, by the way, no idea whether any of my direct ancestors were in Egypt in the second millennium BCE, nor (if they were) "which side they were on".

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:42 AM

"A reading of the NT can show one that A there is no recommendation to stop the old practices and B absolutely no reason to stop following the Law. In fact that was one of the central themes of the message."

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I remember a number of books in the New Testament discussing this very issue. Jesus routinely broke or challenged elements of the Law at least as it was being practiced at the time. Paul, another rabbi, speaks at length about the why Christians should move away from the the Law and eventually convinced Peter and other members of the early church to stop requiring cicumcisions or kosher dietary practices. I also seem to remember that Paul had considerable help changing Peter's mind on this from no less than the resurrected Jesus.

I do think the discussion of Passover transitioning into communion in Christianity makes sense, though I've never really seen much written on it. Passover celebrates the deliverance of the Children of Israel from slavery, communion the deliverance from sin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 04:05 AM

I'll need to recheck this but I'm under the impression that Christians did not move the Sabboth to Sunday. They began celebrating the Liturgy and the Eucharist on Sunday because it is the Day of Resurrection not because it is the Sabboth. Modern preachers commonly refer to Sunday as the Sabboth but I'm not sure that is historically accurate.

The Apostle Paul was not a rabbi, he worked for the Romans helping to persecute Christians. He didn't become a Christian until some time (years?) after the crucifixion. He never met Jesus.

For Christians, the Jewish Passover was subsumed by Pascha, the New Passover so there was no need to celebrate twice.

Now what I want to do is get with Spaw and help celebrate Passout. <g>

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:07 AM

Er call me a Devout Athiest who should not really know but as a fully paid-up smart-ass what was Palm Sunday all about? or do we pass over that one?

I'll get my coat (of many colours..............)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:00 AM

Martin Gibson,

You say Passover is the freeing of the Jewish slaves from ancient Egypt. It is more remembered, than celebrated as the benign effect of the 10th plague on the first born of the Jews.

Yet in the 'Good Friday' thread you say As a non-believer in new testament superstition

Are you saying that the old testament is true while the new is merely superstition?

Don't get me wrong here, I am not a great follower of either. I am just wondering on what basis you choose to dismiss the teachings of one faith as superstition while quoting from the far earlier and, to some, stranger doctrines of another?

How do would you describe the Koran or the Vedas?

If you are showing respect for one set of scriptures please have the decency to do the same for others. I am sure you are not a bigot and have no wish to insult the faiths of other people, even if you don't believe in them yourself. That's how wars start!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome (That is my religion as well as description btw:-) )


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:59 AM

"You say Passover, and I say Pascha
You say Hanukah, and I say Christmas..."

Christos Anesti, all! A day of goodwill and love to all.

Even to unnamed GUESTs...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:30 AM

According to Joseph Campbell, there is not one scrap of evidence, outside of the Bible, to prove that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Any thoughts here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:29 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: kendall - PM
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 08:53 AM

I don't mean to "drop a clod in the churn" here , but let's discuss this phrase, "Israel's right to exist" Where does this right come from?


You dropped that clod into the churn and promptly disappeared from the thread. Then today, in this thread, you said:

According to Joseph Campbell, there is not one scrap of evidence, outside of the Bible, to prove that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Any thoughts here?

It seems like your agenda is emerging.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM

Well Kendall, outside of the bible, there's also no evidence that Jesus ever existed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 09:26 AM

Hi Ho! I celebrated this Maundy Thursday at a Christian Seder. Our conference minister(UCC), Sheldon Culver, put it together and we enjoyed her commentary as well as the liturgy she presented. Having attended many seders, both in the reform and conservative traditions, I was impressed and gratified at how the evening went.

Our small congregation is wonderfully inclusive of many "non-Christian" (we are historically a German Evangelical Free Church). I hope that we will include a Moslem based celebration someday soon.

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 09:57 AM

Christianity views the acts and life of Yeshua of Nazareth as the fulfillment of the promises and prophecies made to the Chosen People in the Old Testament. The writings attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John chronicle that fulfillment.

If you do not accept Yeshua as the Messiah, as the Chosen One, then the NT is irrelevant to you. You still await the Messiah. On the other hand, if you accept Yeshua as the fulfillment of the OT promises and prophecies, then why still revere the now-irrelevant (to you) Old Testament?

I was taught that the early Christian Church moved their day of worship from Saturday to Sunday to distance themselves even more from the Jewish faith.

For a discussion of the date of easter, see here.

As for the physical existence of Yeshua, I find it hard to reconcile the 18th and 19th Century views of Paine and Ingersoll -- correct in their time -- to the 20th Century discoveries at Nag Hamadi, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, and others such writings. I suppose that, in the end, it's a matter of what you want to believe and what you're comfortable with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:06 AM

"According to Joseph Campbell, there is not one scrap of evidence, outside of the Bible, to prove that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Any thoughts here?"

Interesting, Kendall. It was on TV I admit, but I've seen Hebrew graffiti carved by slaves who were forced to work in opal mines by Eygptians. The city of Ramses they were supposed to have built in captivity has been found, made of mud brick as described. Slaves wearing what look like Hebrew garment have been found drawn on tomb walls. There's even some evidence for Joesph. How much to expect to be found about slaves 3,500 years after the fact?

GUEST, Joesphus's reference to Jesus is found in the earliest texts. It is clear that it was elaborated by a scribe in later years, but it was there. Joesphus even mentions John the Baptist and cites his treatment as the reason Herod came to a bad end. Here's the version with the additions in ALL CAPS. What you see between them is hardly that unsual for a devote Jew to have written, nor does the the amount of text seem unreasonable for what must have seemed like one more failed Messiah to Joesphus. On the other hand, if Christians had added the whole thing, it would have a completely different tone and, I assure you, have been much, much longer. Read St. Augustine's work. It's interminable.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
(Antiquities 18:63-64)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:57 AM

As to Sorefingers comment about the New Testament not overturning the Law from the Old Testament;
Christ rebutted to some extent the law about observing the Sabbath:
And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? Matthew 12

The OT law was also "an eye for an eye" and this Jesus replaced in the NT with "turn the other cheek"

I was also in church for Maundy Thursday where the passover supper was remembered, and the priest washed the feet of some of the congregation, as did Christ at "The Last Supper"


Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 11:58 AM

I disappeared? explain.

And, how does asking a question indicate an agenda? Anyone who knows me also knows that I say what I think. Soketimes I don't know what to think, so I ask. What is your problem there Cwatch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM

I just went beack to the thread you mentioned and I didn't see where anyone explained to me what I was asking about. Now, I must admit that I didn't re read all 200+ posts, so if you have the answer, I'd like to hear it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM

Some good answers and responses, though a bit of tap dancing by some.

But I can only say that if Christians do find some meaning to themselves of what Passover is about for the Jews and relate to it as being part of their religion, that is fine.

What Christians have had trouble dealing with and I am sure still do, is that Good Friday and Easter are basically meaningless to Jews. That is not to be said out of disrespect. Enjoy these days for what they mean to you. That Easter ham for dinner has no meaning to us, and although probably quite delicious, is not Kosher.

We'll be going out to a Chinese restaurant instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM

“…Good Friday and Easter are basically meaningless to Jews.”
Of course, Martin. That's what I've assumed. I was only trying to answer questions, not change anyone's belief system. The reminder and the recommitment that Jews experience at Passover is often deeper and more meaningful than what many Christians get out their Easter celebrations. I hope your Passover was a joyous one.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:52 PM

Replies attempt to shoot my comment down.

Strick writes

"Jesus routinely broke or challenged elements of the Law at least as it was being practiced at the time. Paul, another rabbi, speaks at length about the why Christians should move away from the the Law and eventually convinced Peter and other members of the early church to stop requiring cicumcisions or kosher dietary practices. I also seem to remember that Paul had considerable help changing Peter's mind on this from no less than the resurrected Jesus."

You should also have read the passage where the Rabbai tells a person asking what to do in order to be saved - saying "Good Sir what must I do to be saved", to which Yeshua replies " do not call me good for THERE IS NOTHING GOOD but G_d, you KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS to be saved"

Yeshua could not have done otherwise because he was too learned in the Law. Sure he made fun of those who pressed the letter of it while eagerly breaking the spirit of the Law. Look about you today and you can easily see that nothing has changed.

In fact I many a time meet Xtians who are trying to save me with their Paulist nonsense; but, on asking them to recite any random Commandment it has been my sorrow to find they not know the answer. IOW kill, rape, steal and lie all you can; go to jail for it and when you get out become a Preacher believing that the blood of an executed Jewish Rabbai has washed away your sins WHILE still not knowing the Law? Naw.

Besides there were milions of innocent Jewish CHILDREN abused, brutalised and murdered in the most disgusting way that we 'could' imagine during WW2 - why should not we believe thier blood not as valuable to the creator?


Paul as you already know never met the Rabbai, never talked with him, never ate with him. Thomas OTOH did, which would you believe? Seems a no brainer to me.

To me the writings of Paul are fanciful rubbish made up for whatever reason which bear absolutely nothing of value to the study of the life of the Jewish Rabbai Yeshua etc etc

The acid test that usualy applied to the matter was the statement that Yeshua was a son of G_d. Sure .... well he taught his followers to pray 'Our Father etc' According to that everybody is a child of G_d.

Missiah? naw, prophet maybe but not a Messiah. And those reports that state he did claim to be 'the' Messiah are to me nothing more than fanciful lies. After you read Thomas you can easily see why this cult could have begun.

Yeshua was not a TV preacher with a mansion and a hareem in Ozarks! These gentlemen provide the nearest thing today to what the NT referred to as Scribes and Pharasees in age of Yeshua. Remember to a Jew - and therefore to Yeshua - they believe in the Bible BECAUSE G_d told them IN PERSON to do it, *A*N*D* to the modern Christian this is back to front since they believe in G_d because the Bible told them to do it.

Today the Rabbai would ask some to stop worshiping statues and others to stop worshiping a book! There are 10 laws which are commonly cited as the guide for good men and Jews as a sort of shorthand easily remembered rule book.


"I am the Lord your G-d, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery"


"You shall have no other gods but me"


"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain"


"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy"


"Honor your father and mother"


"You shall not murder"


"You shall not commit adultery"


"You shall not steal"


"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"


"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his bull, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."




My two cents!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 04:46 PM

Happy Easter to you, Mark Clark

Those 10 rules seem good enough to me. They came from the Big Daddy of them all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

So Martin, you want us to celebrate the massacre of Egyptians by your thuggish God, do you? Count me out on this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:09 PM

Who exactly is g_d, guest? If you mean God, then for f*cks sake, say God!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:22 PM

"Paul as you already know never met the Rabbai, never talked with him, never ate with him."

Paul was of a different opinion. See Acts 9:1-19. Peter had a similar experience. See Acts 10:9-16.

As for the commandments, a surprising number of Christians don't know them for a simple reason. Jesus says you can derive commandments from the following when He was asked what the greatest commandment was:

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


In Mark, the expert of the law agreed with Jesus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:41 PM

Hey Guestbastardlove,etc

I don't care what you celebrate you idiot. And if you mean for fucks sake, don't say f*cks, rectum breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:50 PM

Martin Gibson, didn't your original contain this: "why don't Christians also celebrate the holidays of the old testament such as Passover, Purim, Chanukah,etc." And my answer was that no-one but a complete and total bastard would celebrate the massacre of a whole people. Oh yeah, and here is the word fuck for you. Satisfied now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM

No, not really. And you are so ignorant, it wasn't a whole people that was massacred, it was the first born of every Egyptian. No women, no girls. And only a scum bag like yourself would stick up for a people who kept others in captivity. You are a combination of pond scum and crystalized smegma.

And yes, for keeping the Jews in slavery for 400 years, and after being asked a dozen times the age old question of "Let my people go," those rat bastards got exactly what they deserved. Do you think they will ever try it again, you anti-semetic douche-bag of a regular poster who hides behind Guest status? I know who you are, it's so obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:51 PM

Then, Martin Gibson, reveal the name of the Guest and get on with the discussion.

Like Christmas, the religious festivals at this time of year have had their significance reduced by the commercialism (and, like Christmas, some accuse Christians of taking the date of a Pagan festival for their celebration)

I think it's great that people can celebrate which festival they want, whether it's Jewish, Pagan or Christian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:16 PM

Ah, now GUEST,Shlio has put me in mind of something I've always found interesting. It's my impression (and only an impression, I've no factual basis for it) that it's the Christian holidays that, in western cultures, always seem to be hijacked and turned into great commercial extravaganzas. Jewish Holy Days seem to have been kept and cherished as purely religious celebrations observed quietly in homes with family and at Temple. Am I suffering from a misconception?

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:20 PM

Ok Strick you want it ... your quote

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

You got it, here you go

Nope he could not have uttered such nonsense since 'I love myself by eating loads of corn products', but to my neighbor that would be poison, besides Yeshua also said you cannot add one iota to the Law!

Therefore I know your quote is made-up or mistranslated from the 10th commandment and the 1st. You may add to that the burden of the following; you are behaving like Scribes and Pharasees; now falls upon your shoulders by taking out of context passage/s from some make-believe account of a person you call Ha Zeus - hey its your choice ! - to show that the Law is not valid, is secondhand, is not primary, is irrelevant so long as you follow some script which does not even mention the very things we are commanded not to do. Ok lets all have a sinnin time of it because we NO LONGER KNOW right from wrong.

Let me ask you this, if the Law was as simple as the liars insist why then could not the Creator have said so on the Tablets given Moses? or do you think the Creator some kind of idiot?

Your claim is then an abomination! Shame on it and those who spit upon the Law with such trickery!

If it were a Highway Code then you could substitute love instead of 'yeild to the driver already in the junction'. Yeah love the motorist as you drive throuh his car in your truck then ask to get forgiven because of the death of one you call Ha Zeus.

No wonder the world is so screwed up.

Let Yeshua! rest in peace by learning the Law and then living by it, that is after all what the Rabbai said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:16 PM

Gets confusing with these nameless GUESTs dishing out messages of hate from different directions, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:32 PM

Guest, Shlio

No one is arguing with you that it isn't great that people can celebrate what they want to.

But Mark Clark is right. The Jews have nothing close to an Easter bunny or countdowns to shopping days til Christmas. We don't have candy shaped like baby chicks for Passover. We join our friends and family around a dinner table and re-tell an ancient story for our young ones to hear and learn for the next generation.

The hypocrisy is shoved so much down our throats. All over, libraries are closed for Easter. Public schools were closed for Good Friday. Now why should that be?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM

Martin, as I said, I hope that your Passover was joyous, as it should be considering what it celebrates.

Yes, I've also been to Purim and other celebrations.


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