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BS: Banning water from festivals

dianavan 27 Mar 04 - 04:06 PM
Donuel 27 Mar 04 - 04:48 PM
Amos 27 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM
MMario 27 Mar 04 - 04:59 PM
Rapparee 27 Mar 04 - 07:55 PM
Johnny in OKC 27 Mar 04 - 08:02 PM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Mar 04 - 08:59 PM
Joybell 27 Mar 04 - 09:14 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 27 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,Lilyfestre 27 Mar 04 - 10:06 PM
GUEST,Obie 27 Mar 04 - 10:27 PM
Scoville 27 Mar 04 - 10:33 PM
LadyJean 27 Mar 04 - 10:40 PM
Amergin 27 Mar 04 - 11:51 PM
dianavan 28 Mar 04 - 02:18 AM
lady penelope 28 Mar 04 - 07:30 AM
Donuel 28 Mar 04 - 09:43 AM
Rapparee 28 Mar 04 - 10:29 AM
Maryrrf 28 Mar 04 - 11:44 AM
Rapparee 28 Mar 04 - 03:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Mar 04 - 05:13 PM
Gypsy 28 Mar 04 - 08:44 PM
hobbitwoman 28 Mar 04 - 09:39 PM
dianavan 28 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM
Rapparee 28 Mar 04 - 10:52 PM
hobbitwoman 28 Mar 04 - 11:04 PM
Clinton Hammond 28 Mar 04 - 11:10 PM
dianavan 28 Mar 04 - 11:30 PM
Ellenpoly 29 Mar 04 - 04:34 AM
Clinton Hammond 29 Mar 04 - 12:47 PM
Murray MacLeod 29 Mar 04 - 01:11 PM
Bobert 29 Mar 04 - 01:34 PM
mike the knife 29 Mar 04 - 05:32 PM
dianavan 29 Mar 04 - 08:16 PM
Clinton Hammond 29 Mar 04 - 08:24 PM
Big Mick 29 Mar 04 - 08:27 PM
dianavan 29 Mar 04 - 09:57 PM
Big Mick 29 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM
Bill D 29 Mar 04 - 11:56 PM
dianavan 30 Mar 04 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,Helen, Cookieless - but not for long 30 Mar 04 - 03:57 AM
Nerd 30 Mar 04 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,petr 30 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM
Nerd 30 Mar 04 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,satchel 30 Mar 04 - 04:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 04 - 05:54 PM
dianavan 30 Mar 04 - 07:51 PM
Raptor 30 Mar 04 - 08:16 PM
Raptor 30 Mar 04 - 08:18 PM
Cluin 30 Mar 04 - 11:09 PM
dianavan 31 Mar 04 - 02:58 AM
Raptor 31 Mar 04 - 09:14 AM
Rapparee 31 Mar 04 - 09:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 04 - 09:49 AM
Big Mick 31 Mar 04 - 09:57 AM
Little Hawk 31 Mar 04 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,petr 31 Mar 04 - 09:00 PM
dianavan 01 Apr 04 - 02:13 AM
Amergin 01 Apr 04 - 02:19 AM
dianavan 01 Apr 04 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,petr 01 Apr 04 - 01:48 PM
steve in ottawa 01 Apr 04 - 03:00 PM
RangerSteve 01 Apr 04 - 04:02 PM
dianavan 02 Apr 04 - 01:13 AM
Genie 02 Apr 04 - 01:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 04 - 05:14 AM
Dave Bryant 02 Apr 04 - 09:11 AM
Dave Bryant 02 Apr 04 - 10:09 AM
Cluin 02 Apr 04 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Larry K 02 Apr 04 - 10:34 AM
Big Mick 02 Apr 04 - 01:09 PM
Midchuck 03 Apr 04 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Obie 03 Apr 04 - 09:19 PM
dianavan 04 Apr 04 - 03:26 AM
GUEST 04 Apr 04 - 10:37 PM
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Subject: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 04:06 PM

I recently returned from a trip to Arizona. We decided to go to an outdoor festival in Tempe for St. Paddy's day. The newspaper advertised the tickets for $15.00. When we got there they were $20.00. The paper did not mention that the $15.00 was a pre-sale price. This should have been our first clue. We then got in a long line in 95 degree weather. We could see there was another check-point ahead and bags were being searched. No problem. We had no weapons, alcohol or drugs.

Imagine our surprize when we were informed that we could not bring our cameras, our blanket or our WATER! What was more astounding was that nobody else had a problem with this. The others just went through this routine like a herd of cattle. We raised a big stink and they gladly refunded our money. I guess they didn't want us Canadians giving anybody any ideas about personal freedom.

Basically, they knew that once you were in (no re-entry allowed once you left the site) that they had a captive audience. You then had to buy your water from the kiosk. No water fountains available.

I left with the impression that the American public (since 911) was so used to being searched that they never even questioned the necessity. Is seems that the terror tactics of the Bush administration has creeped into commercialism and the everyday lives of Americans to such an extent that the right to free, clean, drinking water is no longer valued. Is this true? If so, look out America, your basic freedoms are all up for grabs.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 04:48 PM

You are correct about conditioning.

Zero tolerence can work both ways. It is up to you to insure you will not arbitrarily surrender your property.

It usually takes a couple extra minutes but I always protest/refuse to comply.

If you are soft spoken but firm you will usually be granted the simple courtesy of your right to your own property.

Even if it something small.
If at the airport I am asked to remove my shoes I ask for a chair, no chair, no shoes.

If however something spins out of control you must remember that you have NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS until after the fact when you may seek redress in the courts. I know its not correct but thats the way police security seems to work today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM

Dianavan:

Thanks for raising the stink . We need more such stinks in this sad-spaniel nation of ours.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 04:59 PM

Many venues will not allow people to bring in food, or any kind of beverage. For some this is due to a wish to increase the profit margins - for others it is a desire to prevent being sued. For example - under NY state law - if you have a license to dispense food or beverage - then under the current health code you are liable for ANY food or beverage consumed on the premises - regardless of whether you served it/prepared it, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 07:55 PM

Yeah, but they should tell you up front! The U. of Notre Dame won't let you bring cans or bottles into a football game (one word: drunks), but they tell you this, often and loudly -- and they will overlook an unopened plastic bottle of water or a baby's bottle. They also have water fountains available inside.

Seems to me that failing to provide public drinking facilities in Phoenix, Arizona, in 95 F. weather, is asking for a lawsuit from the first case of heat exhaustion.

Sometimes I feel like I have to apologize for some of the sh*t-for-brains things done by US greedheads, and this is one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Johnny in OKC
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 08:02 PM

Can we have the name of the festival?

It looks like they were trying to ding you
an extra $2.50 for a bottle of water.

Love, Johnny in OKC


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 08:59 PM

For A bottle of water?   At 95 degrees F.? If you're going to be there for a number of hours, it's going to be two, three, four bottles of water!

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Joybell
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 09:14 PM

Thank heavens, or whoever is responsible, that it doesn't happen here yet at Festivals. Football games are a different matter, I think, but I never go to them. I remember some footy fans having to carry doctor's letters to allow them to bring in food and drink. Seems if you can claim a condition like say - diabetes, you can get around the rules. So far. Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM

I've only been to one event where there were no water fountains. But they did have restrooms with sinks. I bit the bullet and bought a bottle of water at the park's ridiculous price, but I refilled it in the bathroom several times.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST,Lilyfestre
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 10:06 PM

Joybell,

   I have been to festivals where my diabetic supplies HAD to be taken to a first aid station and kept there, I was NOT allowed to have them with me....needles, insulin, and food. I understand the concern about drugs and needles but honestly, I am MOST uncomfortable leaving my needles around for who only knows to put their paws on.
   

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 10:27 PM

This happens in Canada as well. There was a rock concert in Halifax a while back that would not allow water brought in. Seems that someone bought the concession and water was being sold inside.
What really sucked about this was that the venue was at Citadel Hill, a national park.
The greed of promoters knows no bounds. I have never been to a rock concert, and I sure as Hell wouldn't go to this one, but it is galling that this could happen on public property.
            Obie


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Scoville
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 10:33 PM

Thank God the 2002 Austin City Limits thing didn't do that. They let you bring a small personal bag (backpack), blanket, and two bottles. My friend and I brought two 1.5 liter bottles apiece. It was ungodly hot and, frankly, they probably would have been sued if they HAD outlawed water, by people who passed out from dehydration.

I do know that a 20-ounce Coke costs $3.50 at the big annual dog show here. I'm apparently in the wrong line of work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: LadyJean
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 10:40 PM

I can understand the camera. Flash pictures can be annoying. But the blanket? Movie theaters don't want you to bring in any outside food or drink. But they don't search you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 11:51 PM

I took her to see Shania Twain last December for Christmas (she loves Shania) and I was amazed at all the cameras and everything...they didn't care...they only cared that we not bring in booze outside soft drinks and weapons...it was also an indoor theatre...


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 02:18 AM

Ladyjean - my camera was a cheap little disposable and it was daylight. I could have returned it to the car which was parked about a mile away but the thought of returning to the end of the line was too much. I never did figure out why no blankets were allowed but maybe it was so the promoters could squeeze more people into the space if there was standing room only.

Can you imagine a 10 hour concert in 95 degree weather standing on your feet with no water? I think the only place to sit was the beer garden.

I'll tell you one thing - when we demanded our money back, they gave it to us in a hurry. If more people did this, this kind of exploitation would end. Unfortunately too many people rationalize these kind of rules without realizing its only the tip of the iceberg.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: lady penelope
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 07:30 AM

Here in Britain we actually have a right to access drinking water. If any one is selling food or beverages they also have to supply drinking water. This is usually tap water, but I have harrangued one particular bar into giving me bottled water as it was their problem that they didn't having fit tap water. However, many people just hand the money over for bottled water when the vendors insist that there is no alternative. Naughty vendors.

Even outdoor festivals provide water. Some of the venues that regularly hold events have plumbed in fountains or stand pipes, others use tankers.

I'm agast that they would ban water, especially in an area that hits such high temperatures. I'm also amazed that such a letigious country would leave themselves open to such a potential suit.

TTFN Lady P.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 09:43 AM

Take your insulin? Would they take an emphasema victim's oxygen tank?

Good God people. RULE # 1 You don't let this happen!

Even if you have to lie to defeat their dangerous rules

ex: I need this water because I know it is trace copper free, I am deathly allergic to retail bottled water with copper...

You might even get a supervisor should you ask for one.

And then the "if we do it for you we have to do it for everybody" speech.

Well everybody is an individual.

Get your refund and if they refuse that... for the few of us who can afford justice, sue them.


OF course you can bypass the rules and sneak water in cleverly.
When you have to resort to prison camp techniques of hiding water tubes under your pants because of the rules ,
you are dealing with a prison camp scenario.
It is your duty to escape prison camps ;)


The insulin case would easily lead to a discrimination lawsuit worth at least $50K.


I am assuming it is the kids that are most easily exploited.
You know kids, once you get a lawsuit under you belt you grow up in a hurry and become empowered in more ways than you can imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:29 AM

Recently diagnosed as "insulin resistant" (but not on insulin) I would be HIGHLY incensed if someone tried to take my medication and food away. So much so that I might even talk about it in public, in line, with my wife. I suspect that she might help me retain it -- ya see, I'm married to an attorney and I'm not afraid to use her.

Geez, most fools back off when you say words like "litigation" and "ADA discrimination" and such.

Want to see the TSA back down? Want to carry a larger bag on a small airplane? Just smile and say, "So, would you please write and sign a statement that you are accepting complete responsibility for seperating me from my medication?"

I have a friend who IS insulin diabetic (blood sugars from 600+ to 27, so she needs her insulin, etc.). She'll surrender her medication when they pluck it from her cold dead hands, as the saying goes.

Phoenix is in a desert. I wonder how many people passed out at this concert.

The word for such promoters is "Sh*theads." Sue 'em; such lack of consideration deserves it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Maryrrf
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:44 AM

I think this is outrageous. Banning outside food and soft drinks/beer, etc. I can understand...maybe. For God's sake if you're paying $20.00 pp just to get in - it might be that some folks just wouldn't be able to afford anything to eat or drink if they had to buy (probably inflatedly priced) food and drink on top of it. But to forbid water bottles in 95 degree heat?? Protest letters should be sent out to the local papers, festival organizers, etc. and I think I'd boycot that festival from now on. What a disgrace. And searching people????

I must confess to smuggling in cans of soda and small snacks when I go to the movies. But if the prices weren't so outrageous at the concession stand I wouldn't need to do that. It's the principle of the thing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 03:39 PM

Maybe, in the case of bringing water into a festival held in 95 degree heat, they should let everyone do it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 05:13 PM

Now back in the Sixties the people going to the would just have "liberated" the water concession in a festival.

I think the pioneer in ths kind of crap was Disneyworld and Disneyland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Gypsy
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 08:44 PM

That is patently absurd. I can understand no glass containers, in this day and age, since that falls in the same catagory as a knife. But as someone who drinks about 1 gallon of water on a COOL day.........i would go broke or die in 95 degree heat. Have a restricted diet as well, so would most likely starve. I would've raised a stink, too! Did they have this posted anywhere? Might've been worth a nuisiance suit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 09:39 PM

We have the same restrictions at our local outdoor concert venue. No outside food or drink, no chairs, no umbrellas, no blankets... I'm trying to remember if they were making people check their backpacks at the last outdoor concert I attended. I understand the no food or drink rule, even if I don't agree with it - it's to raise revenue, just as in the movie theaters. The chairs and umbrellas are supposed to be "potential weapons" if a fight breaks out. Ok, I could buy that... until I heard that some concessioniere has started renting chairs at these concerts, and *those* chairs are ok! I guess there's something about them (can't imagine what!) which would prevent them from being used as a weapon in a fight. (Yes, I'm being sarcastic!) Now, blankets I have never been able to figure out... what sort of weapon can you make from a blanket? Trip someone with it? Smother them? I admit I'm rather naive and not up on all the things which can possibly be used as weapons in this world.

I remember having my purse "searched" going into a concert once. The searcher was so thorough (not!!) that I could have had a ton of explosives in there, and she wouldn't have known it. Now, granted, I am a rather un-suspicious looking middle-aged (eek!) woman, and it was a Rod Stewart concert, and I was with a group of equally un-suspicious looking other middle-aged (eek!) women, but still...I don't recall them being much more thorough in their search techniques at the KISS concert and I was with three very dangerous looking 20-something males (my son and his friends) that night. So it would seem there's a lot of contradictions in terms of security at concerts and other public entertainment events, these days.

Annie


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM

McGrath of Harlow - You are exactly right! The water should have been liberated at this concert as well but probably not by two women from Canada. Especially since the American audience thought it was acceptable. I think it was the acceptance that bugged me the most.

The Barenaked Ladies (Canadian) were the last act that day. I think they should know about this. I'm going to e-mail them and let them and every other musician know that they should not allow their audience to be treated this way.

Hope you all do the same. Its an outrage!

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:52 PM

Think about it: if you sit on a blanket you're taking up space that could be (profitably) filled with other bodies. Even folded a blanket would let you sit on the ground, perhaps with your legs stretched out, taking up ALL THAT SPACE!

Also, I can think of a couple of ways of using a blanket as a weapon -- not a very effective weapon, but a weapon nevertheless.

But I really suspect it's a way of preventing you from defining more personal space than the promoters think you should have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:04 PM

You're probably right, Rapaire. I can't imagine this particular venue being *that* crowded - even 17,000 people at the KISS concert didn't fill the "lawn seats", which is a very fancy way of saying you get to sit on the ground if you ask me. But that could very well be the reasoning behind that particular rule.

Actually, that rule was put in place after the KISS concert. It was actually a very good thing that blankets were still allowed at that concert, as some people were using them for camoflauge up at the fence rather than stand in the long lines at the restroom facilities. Hmm. Maybe that had something to do with the rule being instated!

D - I don't know how many Americans these days would be willing to "liberate" the water supply - or anything else - at a large gathering. We have been very willing to put up with a lot of things, in the wake of 9/11, that we might not have put up with before. We need to be careful, though, I think, and not give away too many of our rights... has anyone read "The Handmaid's Tale"? Scary. Even scarier, that it was written long before 9/11. Makes you think.

Annie


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:10 PM

What a bunch of whiners....


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:30 PM

Clinton Hammond - You have the choice to read or not to read. You also have the choice to enter a discussion if you wish. Since you have entered with only a negative, put down; I will put a hex on you. "May you suffer the fate of a man dying of thirst."

You get what you give.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:34 AM

This is a depressing thread, but not for the reason Clinton Hammond gave.

I'm once again, shocked no end to what is happening in this world of ours. I agree that our only recourse is to stand up for what we know is right and appropriate. And in this case, I'd think about sending a letter to some local papers as well.

In the end, the only thing we have are our voices which if we don't raise in protest we give up our power as individuals as well as citizens. I'm so sorry this happened, and Clinton...I wouldn't go so far as to wish you death from thirst, but certainly being upset about something important to you, and being told not to whine about it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 12:47 PM

whatever...

I hope I never get this upset over something so inane and trivial...


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 01:11 PM

............."Want to carry a larger bag on a small airplane? Just smile and say, "So, would you please write and sign a statement that you are accepting complete responsibility for separating me from my medication?" ...............

I don't get it .....


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 01:34 PM

well, this ain't nuthin' new... like someone pointed out, movie theaters won't let bring food or beverage in but they don't search ya either... hey, most of these events have a website with the rules so i'd just boycott the events that have rules that you find offensive... there's plenty other things to do where you may feel less hasseled by the promotors...

bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: mike the knife
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 05:32 PM

How do you boil a frog to death? Slowly increase the temperature... he won't notice until it's too late.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:16 PM

Bobert - Not everyone has a computer. In my case, I was on vacation and the paper announcing the event said nothing about the rules. It would have saved me a couple of hours driving if I had known.

Clinton Hammond - Since when was water trivial? It was 95 degrees!

Anyway, I did write to the Barenaked Ladies just to let them know what kind of people were promoting their concerts.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:24 PM

"You then had to buy your water from the kiosk"

So buy your water...


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:27 PM

dianavan, while I enjoy much of what you post, I have noted (pretty hard to miss) that you have great disdain for the U.S. So it begs the question, why were you here? And if it happened in Canada, would that have made it OK? You make quite a point of the fact that Barenaked Ladies is Canadian, and that is OK with me because I am a huge fan of Canadian performers, and count many among my best musical friends. But is it being Canadian that somehow makes them immune from the obvious greed being demonstrated here? Or are we just dealing with money being the root of all evil? I have seen money grubbing practices in Canada as well. My point is that you never miss an opportunity to knock what happens over here as if we are the root of all evil.

Please get my context, I am just trying to balance out the issue. This is about greed and silliness. Would that I had the time, I would start a campaign against all venues that forbid water from entering. I think that access is an right and that concert venues ought be forced to provide it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 09:57 PM

Mick -

I am both American and Canadian. Its just that I saw nobody protesting or even blinking an eye at the notion of buying water for a 10 hour festival. I think this is just the beginning - a way of conditioning people to accept that they must pay for clean, drinking water. It is more logical to me to protect the drinking water from pollutants than to bottle the clean stuff and sell it. But, of course, that wouldn't be profitable.

Somebody mentioned that in the 60's, if someone had tried this, the water kiosk would have been liberated. I believe this is true. I grew up in America during the 60's. It is disheartening to see so little protest from university students these days. In fact, the crowd at this concert, behaved like cattle.

I go to concerts and festivals regularly in Canada. I bring water, snacks, blankets, cameras, etc. Alcohol is usually banned but water and blankets at an outdoor venue? Never! In fact, you usually mark your spot with your blanket so you and your friends know where to meet.

I don't think the U.S. is the root of all evil but I do think it is a mighty giant. What happens in the U.S. usually finds its way up to Canada in less than 10 years. It is easier to see the loss of freedom from the outside. The propaganda in the U.S. is very slick and if the folks in the U.S. don't stand up to it, Canadians don't stand a chance. Your trends seem to devour us. I love the people in the U.S. (my family included) because they are fun and friendly. I just wish they had more balls when it comes to crass commercialism.

I have watched the American public hang their heads in resignation for the last 30 years. The world watches and wants you to show a little more spunk, thats all. I think the U.S. has been a great role model for many nations in the past. Unfortunately, the example that is being set today is one of submission.   

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM

Fair enough, diana, and by the way, I agree with a great deal of what you say. In fact I find very little to disagree with. It just seemed to me that everything was pointed here, and while I don't like most of the situation I see, I do tire of others consistently pointing here and forgetting that they are part of it too. One of the few things that I disagree with in your post had to do with your contention that what happens in the US will make its way to Canada in less than 10 years. That implies that somehow that is the fault of the US. I would suggest to you, based on the many friends that I have in Canada, that can only happen if the Canadians want it to happen. In other words it is wrong to suggest it is the fault of the US. If Canadians adopt the ways of the US, it is because they want to. We don't force that. To suggest otherwise is to show an incredible lack of respect for the intellect of your fellow Canadians. And I sincerely don't believe that is the case with you.

From what I have seen of my Canadian neighbors, I think they are doing just fine and will take what they choose from us and reject what they don't like. And if the USA is paying attention to their northern neighbor, they will see much to emulate. Now............. if they would just take care of their own trash and quit shipping it here.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 11:56 PM

....just read the whole thread.....and what comes to MY ancient old mind is that I have never come to terms with buying water in individual serving bottles in the first place! If I wanted water, I would put it in bottles and take it with me, and WOE be to the venue who forbade me to carry it in! Booze, I can understand...and I sorta get why they want to SELL soft drinks...but water? Nope...color me antiquated...


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 02:15 AM

Thank you Bill D. Thats the point exactly.

Mick - I think we do agree on most things. What you don't seem to understand is that whether the people want to emulate Americans or not, the trends are set in the U.S. Its always just a matter of time.
As to the garbage fiasco - I wouldn't stand for it at all. Refuse it. You are not responsible for our garbage and we aren't responsible for yours.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST,Helen, Cookieless - but not for long
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 03:57 AM

In the Australian news yesterday:

Monday, March 29, 2004. 1:37pm (AEST)
Pubs warned against overcharging for water

Hotels and bars that overcharge customers for bottled water have been warned they face fines of up to $22,000.

Under the current laws, water sold at hotels has to cost less than the cheapest alcoholic drink.

The Department of Gaming and Racing in New South Wales is investigating complaints of people being refused tap water and charged up to $3.00 for a bottle of water.

The Minister, Grant McBride, has vowed to crack down on pubs and bars that overcharge for water.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1076143.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:14 PM

I was with you there until i got to this:

"I think this is just the beginning - a way of conditioning people to accept that they must pay for clean, drinking water. It is more logical to me to protect the drinking water from pollutants than to bottle the clean stuff and sell it."

You seem to be saying that the promoters who want to make more bucks by selling you water are also part of a vast conspiracy to pollute our water so we can be charged for clean water. This seems absurd to me. While I agree that our political and economic system encourages both pollution and making people pay for clean water, I don't think the connection between these things is conscious, or that the actions of these promoters are "a way of conditioning people" for the benefit of corporations who pollute. It's just that the "invisible hand" of capitalism is always willing to pick the public's pocket, whether that means using the (public) water as a private dump, or bottling (free) water and selling it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM

unfortunately it is happening in Canada dianavan.
and Nerd I do believe it is not just some promoters wanting to make money. The big soft drink companies often have contracts to provide the water. (I havent seen it in a festival here because it definitely wouldnt go over) but its happening at University of British COlumbia.

water fountains have out of order signs and you have to buy bottled water from a vending machine. (ostensibly the pipes are rusty and dirty and would cost too much to replace - why indeed when you could make money by selling the water concession to soft drink suppliers)

and the other thing that bothers me about bottled water - is that (at least in Canada) there are no regulations or controls as to what that water is.

(in fact a friend who owns an investigations agency said companies were caught using tap water in their bottled water)


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:14 PM

Guest, Petr

yeah, it's true that bottled water often comes from soft drink companies, etc. They are among the companies who can make money by selling water, one of the odious practices Capitalism encourages.

But this is different than implying that pollution of water by large corporations is linked to a desire to sell the clean water. That's what implied to me a level of coordination that was absurd. Stil, I don't disagree with dianavan's general point, and indeed it's been a pet peeve of mine for some time when water is banned from festivals. All the festivals at Penn's Landing here in Philly had that rule for a while, and they still might; I stopped going.

By the way, I sometimes run events myself, and depending on the health laws, in some states the event is legally required to provide drinking water for free. Promoters get out of this by simply not telling people they have the right to demand the water. Check the food vendors (sometimes THEY are required to provide it on request) and check the first aid station.

Promoters are also always looking for what's easiest from a security standpoint. If they have had problems, say, with people bringing in water bottles filled with vodka, etc, it may seem to them like the easiest way to solve this problem is to ban outside water.

People like dianavan need to resist to show them it's NOT an acceptable solution, or they'll pat themselves on the back for their cleverness. If you make it more expensive for them, by holding up lines at security and making people go away in frustration, you can eventually make a difference. The problem is that in the short term public opinion will be against you and you'll be cast as "whiners" who are just holding things up for everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST,satchel
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 04:38 PM

Above all, KEEP COMPLAINING!!! Complain to the management, complain to the groups, complaint to the appropriate regulatory agency. TAKE NAMES and ID numbers at the security checkpoint. Finally, follow through after you've calmed down the next day. Nothing gets attention like a short but strong letter cc'ed to everyone from the facility's manager AND parent company CEO, and the relevant government agencies. More complaints equals less future abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 05:54 PM

You've seen the thread about how Pepsi Cola got into trouble in Engkand when it leaked out that the Sassaani bottled water they were starting to try to sell to people was actually made from tap water in Peckham, and run through a filterinmg machine.

And then it turned out that in the process they were polluting it so that there were levels of bromate in it that were way above the safe maximum, and they had to recall the stuff and take it off the market.

There doesn't have to be a conscious worked out plan to pollute the water so as to make people buy bottled water. What happens is the companies sell the idea that bottled water is better for you than tap water, and as the proportion of people using it goes up, the idea that it doesn't really matter if the tap water quality goes down becomes politically acceptable.

It doesn't need any overall human conspiracy of people. The (guided) market works to change things to produce the profit-maximising result, because the drive for profit operates across the whole system. But not for everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 07:51 PM

Thanks, McGrath, you said it well.

Nerd - I did not intend to imply a conspiracy. What I see as "conditioning" is the idea that a person is not entitled to carry their own water with them. Why would anyone dump good water on the ground to buy bottled water from someone else? This makes no sense.

I would also like the people who abide by such silly rules to begin protecting the water they have. Instead of accepting the fact that they must buy water, they should be protesting against the industries and municipalities that pollute our waterways and those that want to export water for profit.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Raptor
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:16 PM

At the Bob Dylan concert in Toronto two weeks ago, not only could you not bring in water, When you bought it you had to have it opened for you at the concession stand, And you couldn't keep the screw on cap!
When asked why they said "You could throw it"

I shit you not!

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Raptor
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:18 PM

By the way it's not too late to Join the Clinton Hammond Fan Club!


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 11:09 PM

Raptor... more likely, you could replace the cap and not have to drink the water all at once, necessitating a return to buy more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:58 AM

Just had an interesting chat with a friend who used to live in Arizona. She said, "What do you expect, my dear? Arizona's a f#@kin police state! Thats not unusual down there."

This banning of water seems to be a sparodic occurence depending on the venue. Boycott these venues. Or better yet, protest loudly to draw attention to the matter.

My last question is this - Do musicians have any control over a policy such as this? Can they insist on free and available drinking water for their audience?

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Raptor
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 09:14 AM

I don't think the performers do have a say in what happens in the venue!

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 09:41 AM

If you would want to hurt someone at a concert by throwing a bottle of water or by any other means, then there's a bigger problem to be addressed, and banning bottles of water or selling them without a cap is putting a band-aid on a cancer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 09:49 AM

Throwing a full bottle of water one thing, throwing water is something else. One is vicious, the other is mischievous, and wouldn't indicate any serious problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 09:57 AM

Saying it is a safety issue is a simple effort to shift the premise, one that folkies fall into all the damn time. This is a simple matter of greed. And when it comes to something that is as basic as water, there is no excuse for allowing it. No problem with selling bottled water as long as safe drinking fountains are around. Next they will be charging to use the damn outhouse. Ridiculous and folks should raise their voices on this one.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 10:23 AM

Ah, yes. Well, be assured that if private industry could somehow control the allocation of air and sunlight they would charge you for those too. Every day. If you couldn't afford to pay then you wouldn't get any.

The unremitting, witless, fanatical pursuit of the dollar is what is ruining life on this planet...and not just for humans.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 09:00 PM

well I for one would like to know whether waterintensive industries
have to pay for their water.
last year when vancouver (and we live on the raincoast) had a drought, because it was so dry later in the summer, there was a total ban on lawn sprinkling, car washing, (vegetable gardens were ok) but
golf courses, and other water users like the breweries had no such restriction. (ok I can understand the breweries, but is it really that critical for golf courses?)
by the end of the summer all the provincial parks were closed due to the forest fire risks. something that Ive never seen in 25 years here.

btw the whole water shortage problem could have been alleviated if people only flushed when it was really necessary. (yellow let it mellow)


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:13 AM

and please stop watering your lawns. Better yet, get rid of the lawn and grow native plants. Low maintenance and environmentally friendly.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:19 AM

In the Sydney area you can get a huge fine for washing your car with a hose...but if you go to a car wash it is ok....I guess the water gets reused....


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:55 AM

Presently, Vancouver does not have water meters. Do you think municipal water meters actually encourage people to limit their water consumption? Would specific bans work better?

No car washing, no lawn watering, no power washing, etc.
and don't forget - turn the water off while you're brushing your teeth and shower instead of bathing. All of this helps. Make sure the dishwasher is full.

Please co-operate this summer. Last summer was a nightmare for B.C.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 01:48 PM

my wife and I shower together, uses a lot less water and is a lot more fun.
low flush toilets are another good idea.
regarding water meters, whenever they are introduced people will on average consume less (cbc radio).
But I have friends in the Czech Republic whose water is billed and monitored two ways, water coming in and water going out the sewer as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:00 PM

Stop! Stop! You're making me thirsty!

I sometimes think people should demand that their ticket and their travel expenses be refunded in these situations. Even trying to claim that extra $1.25 for gasoline would raise their overall administrative costs and decrease their profits. The trick is, don't get angry; other people usually sympathize with calm (or hurt) people over angry people.

As to American commercialism creeping into Canada, yes, it happens. An even worse thing I know of that Canada, and perhaps Australia, exported was the idea of huge newspaper chains. Almost all of Canada's newspapers are now controled by only two chains. Incredible. I'm so happy to see Conrad Black in trouble.

And as to whether performers have control over their venues, there was an interesting article on that subject in Harpers. I'm going to re-read it and post a thread about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: RangerSteve
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:02 PM

Just a guess, but since it was a rock concert, maybe they were worried about "Date rape" drugs. The commonly used ones are odorless, tasteless and colorless. You slip some into a bottle of water and then offer it to a girl who didn't bring any, and then help her out to your car with the excuse that the heat must have gotten to her, then drive to your place and do what you want. A bar in Trenton had a problem with guys paying unscrupulous bartenders to slip the stuff into drinks when certain women ordered them. My Chief's secretary was one, but got rescued by her friends before the wrong guy could take advantage of her.

Anyway, not allowing anyone to bring their own water in is a band-aid approach, since you could easily conceal a tablet or two in y9ur clothes and add it to the water being sold at the concert.

It would have been better to warn people to bring their own water and not dring any offered to them by strangers.

And, to close, if someone at a concert offers you a bottle of water, give the bottle a good shake. The drugs will cause it to foam like detergent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 01:13 AM

I'm happy Conrad Black is in trouble, too, but he's still in power. I doubt if he's even concerned. Journalistic monopoly is very scary. I read the local, community paper. Its much more informative and not nearly as scary.

Mudcat does a pretty good job, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Genie
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 01:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: MMario - PM
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 04:59 PM

Many venues will not allow people to bring in food, or any kind of beverage. For some this is due to a wish to increase the profit margins - for others it is a desire to prevent being sued. For example - under NY state law - if you have a license to dispense food or beverage - then under the current health code you are liable for ANY food or beverage consumed on the premises - regardless of whether you served it/prepared it, etc.


Yeah, but WATER??


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:14 AM

You do seem to have some remarkably silly laws...


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:11 AM

McGrath - I thought that the water was actually coming from the water mains at Sidcup (2 miles from our place at Mottingham), and that it was Coca-Cola (not Pepsi) who were selling it.

Over here no-one would give a sh*t if water was banned from folk festivals. If you tried to ban beer though, there'd be a riot. :-))


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 10:09 AM

That's OK, but if I were you, I'd give up doing it when you find you need glasses !


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 10:25 AM

Water conserving toilets don't work. They don't clear the shit away and often plug up. They usually necessitate flushing more than once for "number 2" and so defeat their own purpose. The hotel/motel industry is going back to the bigger bogs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 10:34 AM

I think banning water from festivals is a poor idea.   However, I do beiieve the promoter or people who run the festival have the right to make the rules for their event.    As the customer, you have the right to decide whether you want to purchase their product.

If they ban water and that is an important issue to you- stop going to the festival.    If enough people feel the same way the promoter will either change the rules or go out of business.

Some festivals allow tape recorders and VCR's.   Other ban them.   It is their perogative to set those kind of rules- no matter how stupid they seem to other people.   If you don't like it start your own event.

PS:   On the subject of water rationing- the funniest remark I heard was about 5 years ago during a draught.   Our city went to a odd/even lawn watering system.   They interviewed an inner city woman who insisted that there was no odd/even system.    She stated that she lived in an even numbered house, but every time she turned on the hose on odd numbered days, the water continued to come out.    It is hard to aruge with stupidity like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 01:09 PM

I never cease to be amazed at these types of attitudes. Folks that look for a way to justify their actions, and folks that seek to create the premise that anything a business does is OK, "cause you should just stop going". Water, clean water, is a hallmark of a progressive society, and one that is civilized. I have no problem with a vendor selling bottled water, but clean water from a fountain ought to be required of any venue where the public gathers. What you are really saying is that if one cannot afford water, then they can jolly well have the sunstroke and tough shit, Matilda. I don't buy that for one minute. I will not attend a venue where a drink of water cannot be had because someone wants to sell me water, and I can't bring any with me.

Quit alibi'ing this shit, people. Laissez Faire Capitalism has been tried before and been found wanting. Progressive peoples need to take a stand on issues like this. Period.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 09:10 AM

Laissez Faire Capitalism has been tried before and been found wanting.

Yes. So has State Socialism.

Maybe nothing works.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 09:19 PM

Socialism is limited by the fact that the capitalists control the dollars. Too often people in the USA seem to equate socialism with communism, and regard capitalism as some demi-god. Canada tends to follow that thinking as well, but at least has socialized mecicine and to a lesser degree, education.
To be more truthful capitalism is totally greed motivated and can only succeed by some being able to take more than their fair share. What I find confounding is that often those who are first to defend that system are often it's victims.
If we were to equate the economy of the world to a pie, we would find some getting fat eating their own portion plus the share of those who are starving. That is capitalism at it's finest and is not something to be proud of.
I know that I digress but a capitalist goal of today is to control the world's supply of water and if they were to gain that, we would be paying through the nose at more than rock concerts!
       Obie


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:26 AM

Obie -

Thats why I demanded my money back at the outdoor concert in Tempe.

I feel real concern when I see so much blind acceptance from the public. When will they wake up? Probably not until its too late.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Banning water from festivals
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:37 PM


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