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BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger

Rapparee 24 Mar 04 - 10:06 PM
LadyJean 25 Mar 04 - 12:16 AM
Rapparee 25 Mar 04 - 08:33 AM
jeffp 25 Mar 04 - 01:00 PM
kendall 26 Mar 04 - 07:31 AM
Rapparee 26 Mar 04 - 09:39 AM
kendall 26 Mar 04 - 09:45 AM
Rapparee 26 Mar 04 - 09:56 AM
Ironmule 26 Mar 04 - 10:24 AM
kendall 26 Mar 04 - 01:08 PM
JohnInKansas 26 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM
Rapparee 26 Mar 04 - 06:19 PM
Raedwulf 26 Mar 04 - 06:33 PM
MarkS 26 Mar 04 - 06:48 PM
Rapparee 26 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM
LadyJean 26 Mar 04 - 11:58 PM
Rapparee 27 Mar 04 - 09:38 AM
Raedwulf 27 Mar 04 - 10:29 AM
Rapparee 27 Mar 04 - 11:07 AM
rangeroger 27 Mar 04 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,bryanbrown@jaegerkorps.org 28 Mar 04 - 06:30 PM
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Subject: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:06 PM

Today I bit the bullet and bought a flintlock Jaeger kit. Yes, I know all of the objections: that it's not "authentic" and so on, but it's what I can afford and even this took some penny-saving.

I want to build it right (and yes, I've built similar kits before, but in percussion) and I really want to carve the stock in the Germanic Jaeger style (and THAT I haven't done before). I'll brown the barrel if it isn't so already, and I'll have a go at tuning the lock.

This is intended to be a longish, patient process, not my usual get-it-together-and-get-it-done sort of thing.

Suggestions would be appreciated, if anyone has any.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:16 AM

Track down the SCA Compleat Anachronist pamphlet on black powder weapons. It's a little early for jaegers, but it will be a help. If you can track down the author, George Paczolt, he used to do French and Indian war reenactments, and he can be a real help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:33 AM

Great, LJ! There's an SCA group here in town; someone will probably have it. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: jeffp
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 01:00 PM

The Mountain Man E-mail Discussion List will probably have some people who can offer excellent help. These are a bunch of serious pre-1840 Rendezvous folks who do much of these things themselves. You will have to join the list to post on it. You may find a lot of what you seek by searching the archives, which are all online.

Good luck and have fun!

Jeff


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 07:31 AM

Back when I was into killing things, I used to hunt deer with a flintlock, much to the amusement of the "Out of staters" with their elephant guns and bannana clips.
I came out of the woods one day, and this guy said "How do you unload that thing"? I pointed to a fungus on the side of a birch tree,about 20 yards away, and said "Like this" phoom! blew that fungus into a million pieces. he says "Well I'll be damned"!

I also made a revolver from a kit, and the only advice I can give is, take your time. It is tedious and time consuming to do it right, but if you don't, you will not be happy with the finished product. I gave it to my son in law. Patience is a virtue that I lack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:39 AM

I've never made a flintlock, from a kit or anything else. But I have made, from kits:

a left-handed half-stock Hawken-style .45 caliber rifle (for my brother);
a right-handed .45 caliber full-stock rifle (given to my nephews);
a right-handed .50 caliber half-stock "Plains rifle";
a .44 caliber repro of the 1858 Remington New Army revolver;
a .44 caliber repro of the 1861 Colt Army revolver;
a .45 caliber "Kentucky" pistol;
a .36 caliber double-barreled pistol ("The world's smallest double-barreled shotgun");
a .45 caliber "Derringer",

all to see if I could. All of these were percussion locks (caplocks).

The revolvers share a partitioned box I made for them, the "Kentucky" pistol lives in a leather holster/case I made for it, and the "Derringer" resides in a fancy box I bought with a repro deck of early cards, some lead dice and a "racy" picture -- the "Gentleman's Entertainment Center."

I've shot all of them, they all work, I'm intact, and I've found that the best way to test fire them the first time is to take them to the range, get everything ready, hand the gun to your brother and say, "Dammit! Go on ahead, I left my sunglasses in the car."

Kendall, I was shooting on of my black powder rifles at a range when I heard the two twenty-somethings on the next lane cussin' out the M-1 they were shooting. I wandered over and ask if I could help -- I'd trained on the M-1 in the Army. So they handed me ("What the heck can a black-powder shooter teach us?") the rifle and a clip of 8 rounds. I showed them how to load it, how to lean into it, how to keep their thumbs off the neck of the stock so that the recoil didn't mess up your glasses -- and at a hundred yards, shot a tin can into the air and with the next seven rounds kept it spinning in the air. Best shooting I've ever done! When the clip went "SPOING" and ejected, I handed them back the rifle with the comment, "GOOD gun!" and walked away from a couple of slacked jawed young men.

I'm sure you must have heard of the City type who roared up in front of a small store in Maine and yelled at the young feller on the porch, "Hey, old timer! Good huntin' around here." "A-yup," was the reply, "Plenty of good hunting around here," and the car roared off. A week later, the same car came back the other way, and the same loud driver yelled at the same young feller, "Hey! You said there was good hunting around here! I didn't shoot anything! Didn't even SEE anything!" And the young feller replied, "Lots of good hunting, just not a lot of things to shoot."


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:45 AM

The M-1 was a fine rifle, I once shot a nit off a gnat's nuts with one at 100 yards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:56 AM

Heck, Kendall, I used to do the same thing to mites on midges, only I let whoever I was with pick which nut and which mite. I was a mitey fine shot, and the only time I had a problem was when I was showing off to my latest girlfriend, Midge. I'd best not go into the complications of that event, nope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Ironmule
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 10:24 AM

Rapaire, you might want to visit The Muzzleloading Forum ; and also The Traditional Muzzleloader's Message Hide

Both sites have a lot of old gun builders, and builders of old guns

Jeff Smith


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 01:08 PM

Raparie, sometimes I have a hard time believing you LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM

The Jaeger was typically a short barrelled large bore "utility gun" as known in "the Colonies" and was typified in the "Brown Bess" of the Revolutionary era. As such, it would be expected that there was seldom much "carving" beyond what was need for a simple, serviceable tool.

The "type" did come from European "estate hunters," and one might suspect that some fairly ornate examples might be found there, but for an "American" arm, "the simpler the more authentic" would be the expected rule.

The only illustration I could come up with immediately is at
Bonhams and Butterfields antiques Austrian Flintlock Jaeger Rifle
First Quarter 19th Century. This may, or may not, be typical of the "type" to which you want to work, but appears to be rather "unadorned."

Of course, an accurate reproduction of a useful stock shape is something to be sought, but I haven't come up with anything helpful there.

My recollection is that I always thought the "Brown Bess" Jaegers shown in illustrations I've seen in the past were rather clumsy looking – sort of "blockish;" but numerous comments in blackpowder hunting and reenactment reports have cited them being much "handier" to carry that the long rifles that eventually supplanted them. The above illustration does have much more "graceful" lines than my recollection would suggest as typical of early American examples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 06:19 PM

I've been looking through some of my collection of materials on historical firearms, specifically in Gusler and Lavin's "Decorated Firearms 1540-1870" (Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, 1977). Page 158 has what "is generally referred to as a Jaeger." From the black and white illustrations it would appear that the barrel on this one was left in the white. The carving (the book concentrates on inlays and metalwork) seems to be low relief and not very fancy at all. Cheekpieces in particular seem to be left plain, which makes sense.

Which is good, 'cause I'm not a fancy carver.

If you can find a copy of this book I recommend it; it's a great example of the sorts of guns that kings, nobles, and the very rich owned. I could be wrong, but I don't think that many ordinary folks owned firearms inlaid with gold and silver wire on a carved ivory stock, or with pierced gold sideplates!


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 06:33 PM

The most obvious piece of advice is practice your carving elsewhere, before you start working on your stock! But it's so obvious, I'm assuming you've already thought of that. Anyway, if you're that bloody handy at making stuff, why ain't you makin' yer own sword, 'stead o' hasslin' me... ;)

If ever I get my backside over there, I'm coming to Idaho to admire, you have been warned... ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: MarkS
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 06:48 PM

OK guys
Last time I picked up an M-1 I wrote my initials in the ten ring at 300 yards!
Next......

Mark

Oh - and Rapaire

Probably don't have to tell you, but you might want to try your new Jaeger first with black powder rather than Pyrodex or the stuff made into premeasured loads. And start off slow - building up to rated grainage in small steps.
Just a hunch unless you are REAL confident about the manufacturer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM

Raedwulf: I don't have a forge or access to one. I could get some flat stock, I suppose, rough-shape it with a hacksaw and finish it with a file. I made a knive out of a truck spring like that once -- but it wouldn't have any temper to it and it's a real bear to do.

MarkS: Pedersoli ? They make barrels that only blow up on you at inopportune times, like when you pull the trigger. Seriously, with a .54 caliber I'll probably start with 50 grains of 2F and work up from there. 4F for priming, of course. I'll have to get some round ball in something like .531 and use patching; I have some strong ticking I'll try. Flint will be a new experience for me; thus far I've only shot percussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 11:58 PM

If you could track down my old boyfriend Terry Bond at Jamestown. He did some beautiful brasswork on one of his replica guns.
Friends of mine who are French and Indian war reenactors used to ring in the New Year by firing their flintlocks. The police stopped them because their neighbors took to returning the salute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 09:38 AM

My brother, the odder of the two, rang in the New Year once by firing his cannon (2 inch bore, muzzle loading repro of a model of about 1870, scaled down to about a 30 inch barrel). No ball, just a salute charge.

The police put a stop to that, too. Come to think of it, it's a good thing that he's good friends with the local cops and works for the Illinios State Police.

His kids love him -- "dad's not boring!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 10:29 AM

Only 2" bore? That's not very big! I say that because the husband of a very good friend has started ACW re-enactment in the last year or so. Over here (UK), cannon are limited to a maximum of 2", because that's the largest possible bore on a shotgun license. I understood that, in America, more or less full size was both permissible & common. I seem to remember 4" bore being mentioned?


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 11:07 AM

No, he has two cannons, named "Ed" for my grandfather (the biggest one) and "Marie" for Ed's sister (the smaller one.) He shot the smaller one -- Ed's bore is about 3.5 inches. He fired Marie at New Year's.

I don't know how common full sized ACW, etc. cannons are, but I've seen them. There are even cannon shoots here where a gun crew in full ACW uniform and does the whole battlefield drill, shooting as accurately and quickly as possible -- the ones I've seen use containers of concrete for instead of real shot, though.   Of course, there's a whole hill for a backstop!

The largest shotgun in regular use in the US is 10 gauge (10 bore). The largest I have is a side-by-side double 12. Hunting, especially waterfowl hunting, with shotguns in the UK and the US differs -- I'd call a shotgun with a 2" bore a "punt gun", as was used by market hunters a hundred years ago.

On the other hand, when I visited Culloden and took in the sound-and-light show there I notices that one of the members of the British forces was using a percussion lock rifle when all the other people were using flintlocks. I guess that the Brits were ahead of the US back them, too, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: rangeroger
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 05:18 PM

Mike,your story about the M-1 at the range reminds me of one.

I was at a local range firing my Navy Arms 1851 .36 cap and ball on the 25-yard range when a shooter from the other end of the line came down and asked what the hell was I shootng. Seems he had heard the boom and the huge clouds of smoke and when he looked through his spotting scope and saw I was putting everything in the black, he had to know what it was.

He then asked if I knew anything about .45 autos. Since the 1911 is my absolute favorite handgun, I told him yes and went to his firing position. He had a Colt Gold Cup that he could barely put on the paper,so he asked me to fire it and see what was wrong with it. I inserted a full magazine and used the slide release to chamber a round. He stated that one should never chamber a round that way and I could only say "That's what it's made for". I then proceeded to put 7 rounds in the black one-handed,gave him back the gun,and told him there was nothing wrong with it.

rr


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Subject: RE: BS: Building a Flintlock Jaeger
From: GUEST,bryanbrown@jaegerkorps.org
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 06:30 PM

I'll be out of pocket for abit. But if you email me directly (I am not normally on this list found your questoin while googling) I'll see what I can do to point you in the right direction

Bryan K Brown
Armourer
Hesse Kassel Jaeger Korps
www.jaegerkorps.org


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