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Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?

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Peter T. 09 Dec 03 - 11:03 AM
Steve Parkes 09 Dec 03 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,Mick and Keef 09 Dec 03 - 11:31 AM
Raggytash 09 Dec 03 - 11:50 AM
John Hardly 09 Dec 03 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Paul McCartney 09 Dec 03 - 12:02 PM
John Hardly 09 Dec 03 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,James 09 Dec 03 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 09 Dec 03 - 12:18 PM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 12:21 PM
Peter T. 09 Dec 03 - 12:23 PM
Peter T. 09 Dec 03 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,James 09 Dec 03 - 12:39 PM
Kim C 09 Dec 03 - 12:41 PM
PoppaGator 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Nigel Parsons (at work) 09 Dec 03 - 01:02 PM
Raggytash 09 Dec 03 - 01:03 PM
Ebbie 09 Dec 03 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Lilo Lil 09 Dec 03 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,James 09 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM
Kim C 09 Dec 03 - 01:28 PM
Wesley S 09 Dec 03 - 01:42 PM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 02:20 PM
Amos 09 Dec 03 - 02:25 PM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 02:27 PM
Ed. 09 Dec 03 - 02:32 PM
Pseudolus 09 Dec 03 - 02:33 PM
Ebbie 09 Dec 03 - 02:46 PM
Ed. 09 Dec 03 - 02:59 PM
Kim C 09 Dec 03 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 09 Dec 03 - 03:08 PM
fat B****rd 09 Dec 03 - 03:15 PM
mg 09 Dec 03 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Truthtroller 09 Dec 03 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,GUEST:Richard Patrick 09 Dec 03 - 04:09 PM
Ebbie 09 Dec 03 - 04:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 03 - 04:21 PM
Ed. 09 Dec 03 - 04:28 PM
Phot 09 Dec 03 - 04:39 PM
John Hardly 09 Dec 03 - 04:56 PM
Ebbie 09 Dec 03 - 05:08 PM
TheBigPinkLad 09 Dec 03 - 05:09 PM
John Hardly 09 Dec 03 - 05:16 PM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 09 Dec 03 - 05:39 PM
harvey andrews 09 Dec 03 - 05:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 03 - 06:33 PM
Peter T. 09 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM
Raggytash 09 Dec 03 - 07:53 PM
Murray MacLeod 09 Dec 03 - 08:07 PM
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Subject: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:03 AM

Years of Beatling, and I never knew that apart from everything else, Lennon/McCartney penned three of my favourite "British Invasion" songs -- "Bad To Me", "From A Window", and "World Without Love". Found this out from a compilation disk. Anyone know if they handed off any other songs to other groups in 1964-5?


(I continue to be amazed by their output!)

yours,

Peter t.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:16 AM

They wrote "I want to be your man" for the Stones, "Step inside, love" for Cilla Black (A tv sig tune; may not have got across the Pond) ... most of the others are too numerous to mention ...

Steve


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,Mick and Keef
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:31 AM

Am I the only person in the world who thinks these two lads are somewhat over rated? Come on, it aint Mozart is it? And they did split up 32 years ago!


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:50 AM

No you're not alone, a good deal of what they wrote is C**P and everything McCartney has done since definitely falls into this category


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:58 AM

man I wish I could write crap like that.

They are the most astounding writing duo of our (or perhaps any other) time. Prolific and profound.

Thanks for the memory -- Bad To Me is a nice song to have bouncing around my brain today. I seem to remember a few of the Peter and Gordon songs were from brother-in-law McCartney.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,Paul McCartney
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:02 PM

I must put my hands up to Raggytash there,My Liverpool Oratorio was dire!
                           Cheers,
                           Macca.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:09 PM

http://www.gallerysix.com/from_a_window_chicagost.php


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:16 PM

I think they have written some memorable songs. No it is not Mozart, but it is not intended to be..but it is great pop. I also believe that MaCartney has written more good songs than Lennon. Much of John's solo output was pretty mediocre.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:18 PM

Are the songs of Lennon-McCartney the folk music of England?

I've stressed this before. Songs like Obla-Dee and Yellow Submarine will be learned by children decades from now.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:21 PM

No way will such songs become the ''folk music of England'' because pleasant though they are, these songs have no meaning or story to tell.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:23 PM

Phooey. Mozart wrote lots of crap, still doesn't affect the good things he wrote. Anyway, Mozart was Mozart, they were Lennon/McCartney -- different stuff, different impact. I had a good friend in England who was famous for his interpretations of Schubert Lieder -- his two favourite singers? Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Janis Joplin. He thought they were peerless interpreters of their chosen music.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:25 PM

Oh yes, children on playgrounds in fifty years time will be singing Child ballads, just like they do now.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:39 PM

I think it Lennon Macartney could become folk or trad. Look at Stephen Foster..his songs are now part of the heritage of American music and are stll widely sung and played. I think there are certainly some lennon Macartney songs that will reach that stature.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:41 PM

I wish I could write crap like that too.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

The two of them started out as collaborators, and obviously developed a joint approach to songwriting, but by the time they had become famous, almost every one of "their" songs was really the composition of one or the other. Early on, they had decided to maintain the "Lennon-McCartney" songwriting identity as a business decision to split the royalties equally, even as they were beginning to work more and more separately at creating songs.

A number of their early hits, written as they were just achieving fame in the UK and before breaking out in the states and going worldwide, feature two distinct parts -- e.g. a verse by Paul and a bridge by John. As time went on, though, they wrote more and more separately.

Just being members of the same performing unit, of coure, assured that there would be some continuing mutual influence upon each other. Certainly, their work right after the breakup showed each one's individual charactersitics more blatently than they had appeared back when they were Beatles.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,Nigel Parsons (at work)
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:02 PM

Guest: "these songs have no meaning or story to tell. "
Eleaonor Rigby is quite telling on the failing church attendances seen in the UK these days!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:03 PM

You mean to say the Frog song/chorus is profound ?


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:04 PM

Ye gods. I have obviously missed the phenom of the century. Would someone please post the most profound of their lyrics?


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,Lilo Lil
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:15 PM

Not trying to tell you anything...except to point out that one bad song doth not a crap heap maketh.

And don't forget George's influence.collaborating with Ravi Shankar decades before World Music became the darling of the open eared/minded.Ok many were doing similar, but he had the name to make it more accessible for the average man in the street, who had never boarded a plane in his life.

Also I would like to add that NOBODY could be a better Ivor the Engine than Ringo....how diverse their many talents.

And not a dead hedgehog in sight......aaaah that's what you're missing eh, roadkill?


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM

I think some folks are missing the point..no, they are not profound, but they have certainly written some fabulous pop songs. Often the songs had a message or conveyed some universal truth that moved many people. Is it great art ? Who cares..it is great pop. I do not understand what people are so anti-pop, there have been many wonderful songwriters in this genre. Let us just give credit where credit is due...we ALL shine on.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:28 PM

The most profound? Try "In My Life."


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:42 PM

Actually I write "crap" like that all the time. But in order to avoid the twin pitfalls of fame and fortune I keep them under wraps so I may enjoy a more sedate life. Beside I would hate for schoolchildren to be singing my songs many years from now. What would you say if they sang out of tune ??


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:20 PM

It's all a matter of opinion, isn't it. Mine is, these guys were the Baby Boom generation's answer to the Gershwin brothers. And as far as McCartney writing better songs than Lennon? C'mon. How can


Someone's knockin' at the door

Someone's ringin' the bell

Open the door

Let 'em in

compare to


I read the news today Oh boy

Four thousand holes in Blackburn Lancashire

And though the holes were rather small

They had to count them all

Lennon's songs were more introspective, dark and brooding, with more substance to them; McCartney's were more along the lines of fluff.

But it's all a matter of opinion.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:25 PM

What would you say if I sang out of tune?
Would you try to run over my toes?
Give me a word and I'll show what I feel,
And I'll try not to bloody your nose!
Oooh, I get by with a little help from my,
By with a little help from my,
By with a little help from my Friennnnnnds!!


Seriously, why carp at a legacy that was predominantly one of beauty (light or dark) and humor (ditto)? The world is better for their music, no mistake.


A


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:27 PM

I don't think it is JUST a matter of opinion unless one is ignorant of the basic skills required to compose songs. These men had a very high level of skill..no doubt abiut it. As for them being the Gershwins of the baby boom...that is really quite a compliment.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Ed.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:32 PM

Hear, hear Amos!

Peter T,

I'll try and post a comprehensive list in aswer to your original question, but it might take me a day or two.

Ebbie,

As GUEST: James says, the lyrics aren't particularly profound, but they weren't meant to be. These are pop songs. And yes, you "have obviously missed the phenom [sic] of the century"


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:33 PM

Yeah! And what profound lyrics did Mozart ever write? LOL!!!

Uhhhh, ok, I'll get back to work now........

Frank


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:46 PM

Ed, John Hardly did say: They are the most astounding writing duo of our (or perhaps any other) time. Prolific and profound. I didn't come up with 'profound' by myself.

But go ahead, enjoy. The fact remains that I was not 14 years old when they burst upon the scene.

In My Life
There are places I'll remember
All my life though some have changed
Some forever not for better
Some have gone and some remain
All these places have their moments
With lovers and friends I still can recall
Some are dead and some are living
In my life I've loved them all

But of all these friends and lovers
There is no one compares with you
And these memories lose their meaning
When I think of love as something new
Though I know I'll never lose affection
For people and things that went before
I know I'll often stop and think about them
In my life I love you more


Yes, nice writing, and good sentiment. But in what way does it surpass any one of stacks and stacks of other pieces of good writing?


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Ed.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:59 PM

It had a better tune...


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:03 PM

The reason that particular song outshines any others, for me, is that it MEANS SOMETHING TO ME. As I get older, and friends and family members leave this earth, it just becomes more dear. There isn't another song on the planet that speaks to me in quite the same way.

Your mileage may vary.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:08 PM

Yep

Lennon-McCarney is the future of folk music in England!

You say it's not folk music because it doesn't tell a story? Wimoweh tells a story? "London Bridges Falling Down" tells more of a story than "We All Live a Yellow Submarine?"

Total Denial, Guest.

The Beatles songs will live for generations, just like folk music is supposed to.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:15 PM

Hello, Peter T.To get back to your question. Read The late Ian Macdonalds "Revolution In The Head" apart from being a fasconiating book it should inform you which songs The Beatles gave to who(m).


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: mg
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:03 PM

songs don't have to tell a story. Doo dah doo dah..does that tell a story that anyone knows? Darling Clementine?   I think most songs do not tell a story but they might show a slice of someone's life...in media res as it were. mg


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,Truthtroller
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:03 PM

You Brits can't protect your own folk music now !!!.. so don't go relying on Lennon/McCartney to pull you out of the hole.

   T.T.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,GUEST:Richard Patrick
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:09 PM

Peter T asks whether children in school will be singing Child ballads in fifty years time. Well they certainly are singing some of them now. Versions of the Cruel Mother are found in London as skipping songs, and Lord Randall is painfully pervasive.


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Subject: Lyr Add: WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD (G Weiss/B Thiele)
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:15 PM

WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD
(George Weiss / Bob Thiele)

I see trees of green, red roses too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world

I see skies of blue and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world

The colours of the rainbow, so pretty in the sky
Are also on the faces of people going by
I see friends shakin' hands, sayin' "How do you do?"
They're really saying "I love you"

I hear babies cryin', I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Yes, I think to myself, what a wonderful world

Or how about: (Third verse of John O'Dreams)

Both man and master in the night are one
All things are equal when the day is done
The prince and plowman, the slave and free man,
All take their comfort in old John o'dreams.

At the end of the day there are many, many songs.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:21 PM

"Come on, it ain't Mozart is it? And they did split up 32 years ago!

That's a really strange sentence, when you think about it. For some reason the fact that one lot of Music is as much as 32 years old is supposed to somehow mean that it is less worthy of respect than more recent music. And yet in the first half of the sentence the fact that another lot of music is 200 years ago is a reason to see it as especially worthy of respect.

If it was "it is only 32 years since they split up" there could be some logic in it - ie, they haven't been around long enough for us to be sure they can transcend their generation.

No it ain't Mozart, and Mozart ain't the Beatles. I'm grateful for both of them.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Ed.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:28 PM

Ebbie,

Maybe I'm dim, but I'm not sure why you posted 'What a Wonderful World' It's a fine song, for sure, but what has it got to do with this thread?

I don't think that anyone has said that the Beatles were the only people to write great pop songs, or that pop songs are the best musical expression going.

I love the Beatles, but I'm curious to know why you (seemingly) dislike them so much?

Ed


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Phot
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:39 PM

Sorry all, but I've never liked the Beatles/ Lennon, Mcartney, in the slightest. If they haden't done it first, someone else would, and they would get all the praise.
Also, Ringo didn't do Ivor the engine, he did Thomas the tank engine!(Yes I'm a train spotter!)

Wassail!

Chris


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:56 PM

Their music is profound because its effect, as Art, is profound. As Art it transcended, inspired, emoted as much or more to humanity than most that came before and most, I imagine, that will follow.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:08 PM

Sorry, Ed. They set my teeth on edge. I wish I'd keep silent about it, because it doesn't affect anything in the slightest.

So, I've reformed, and with you I'll be singin':

I wanna hol' your han'!!!
She love you, ya, ya, ya
!!!


On the other hand, I have no problem with individual members of the group- I can listen to any one of them. Just don't present them to me with that bouncy, driving beat with the teenyboppers screaming in the forefront.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:09 PM

If you examine the words of many songs without the music they become trite. That's the power of the medium. What Lennon & MacCartney did changed the world ... in 1965. The times are past, the sentiments lost, and what they did will undoubtedly be dismissed as crap by those who cannot understand the revolultion that they, in part, fired. Write to your favourite musician and ask if they think the L/M contribution is crap.

p.s. I don't know the words to any Mozart songs. Did he write "Amadeus, Amadeus"?


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:16 PM

I guess what I'm trying to say above is that...

...you can pick apart some art, criticize it for its simplicity, lack of sophistication -- even its lack of apparent skill, and be utterly missing the point of Art.

By the critical standard of skill and complexity, Thomas Kincaid ("Painter of Vomitous Light") slays Rothko hands down...

..."what the...why, they's just blobs o' red canvas"

...and Mondrian? and Pollack? fageddaboudit (and faggedabout my spelling -- art school was too long ago).

Why does a piece by Hamada, or Shaner, or Leach transcend commercial Pfalzcraft (I mean, besides not having a silly name). They're both just pots -- both serving a function. Arguably the Pfzcrp serves the purpose better -- more uniform, stacks better, lids fit better.

And if complwxity is the true mark of art, then why didn't we reach Roccocco and quit?

Is there a heirarchy of evaluation of human emotion wherefrom a "serious" artist cannot stray?

Was Thurber a "serious" writer?


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:17 PM

Oob la di etc, is already a folk tune, nicked by Lennon/McCarney


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:39 PM

Yes, it is.

Funny how when the Beatles came out, they all but stifled the Great Folk Scare.

Now their music is as much of the English speaking world's musical fabric.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:42 PM

They were the best of their time in their field. Dylan was the best of the same time in a different field. Ochs was the best of the same time in another field. If you stand in that time and take in the view you'll see many more fields each blessed with a best.
"Oh what a time it was..a time of innocence"
Just listen to that view!


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:33 PM

"If they haden't done it first, someone else would"

Nobody else would have written the same songs. That is what is special about any kind of creation. When anyone writes a song they know that there is something new in the world which wasn't there before.

If you mean being a big enormous hit and having girls screaming and being a cultural phenomenon and all that, probably true enough. But that doesn't matter as much as the songs.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM

"I Don't Want To See You Again" sung by Peter and Gordon -- a truly dreadful Lennon/McCartney tune.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:53 PM

I stand accused by many of you as saying Lennon and Mc Cartney were crap, you obviously haven't read my contribution in your haste to condemn me and support your "heroes".
I actually wrote that much of what they wrote, I and many others considered crap, it was and remains meaningless tosh. I do not deny that along the way they wrote some beautiful songs with memorable melodies, but a good deal was hyped up merely because they were the Beatles, if you or I had attempted to get the stuff published by record companies we would have been laughed out of the building.
If someone could enlighten me as to any decent material McCartney has created since he went solo I would be very interested to hear about it as I have spent the last couple of hours talking to friends in my local watering hole and none of us can think of anything.
Again please read before you put me in front of your firing squad.


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Subject: RE: Lennon/McCartney -- who are these guys?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:07 PM

"What a Wonderful World" has impeccable folk music credentials, having been recorded by Tony McManus on his first CD (in DADGAD no less).

I can remember playing "Here Comes the Sun" as a guitar instrumental in folk clubs in the early 70's.

Just because I could ...


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