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BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier

Bobert 23 Dec 03 - 07:09 PM
TIA 23 Dec 03 - 11:49 AM
Gareth 22 Dec 03 - 07:30 PM
Bobert 22 Dec 03 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Frank 22 Dec 03 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Frank 22 Dec 03 - 03:34 PM
Teribus 22 Dec 03 - 01:40 AM
artbrooks 20 Dec 03 - 09:11 PM
Bobert 20 Dec 03 - 08:15 PM
GUEST,Frank 20 Dec 03 - 06:45 PM
artbrooks 20 Dec 03 - 04:10 PM
Amos 20 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Frank 20 Dec 03 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 19 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM
TIA 19 Dec 03 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,pdc 19 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Teribus 19 Dec 03 - 05:11 AM
Peace 19 Dec 03 - 02:41 AM
GUEST,Teribus 18 Dec 03 - 03:00 AM
SueB 17 Dec 03 - 05:32 PM
artbrooks 17 Dec 03 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Teribus 17 Dec 03 - 10:47 AM
Bobert 17 Dec 03 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Teribus 17 Dec 03 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Frank 16 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Teribus 16 Dec 03 - 10:51 AM
Bobert 16 Dec 03 - 09:33 AM
artbrooks 16 Dec 03 - 08:51 AM
Bobert 16 Dec 03 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,Teribus 16 Dec 03 - 08:39 AM
Gareth 16 Dec 03 - 04:57 AM
Bobert 15 Dec 03 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,Frank 15 Dec 03 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Frank 15 Dec 03 - 10:09 AM
Teribus 15 Dec 03 - 05:12 AM
Teribus 15 Dec 03 - 03:59 AM
artbrooks 14 Dec 03 - 11:38 PM
GUEST 14 Dec 03 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,Claymore 14 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Claymore 14 Dec 03 - 07:22 PM
Bobert 14 Dec 03 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Frank 14 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM
Gareth 13 Dec 03 - 02:35 PM
kendall 13 Dec 03 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,Frank 13 Dec 03 - 12:31 PM
Peace 13 Dec 03 - 01:05 AM
Bobert 12 Dec 03 - 10:38 PM
Amos 12 Dec 03 - 08:12 PM
kendall 12 Dec 03 - 07:59 PM
Gareth 12 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 07:09 PM

Danged, Gareth, I didn't mean fir it to sound "objective"... Actually, since I have decided that I'm going to work for aDem (yuck...) I'm tyrin' to tone my Boss Hog stuff down a tad... Worst thing in the world is having someone on the phone that yer tryin' to get to vote for yer guy and you go into the Boss Hog routine...

You, T, if you think I attacked you personally, well, I reckon I did. For the life of me I can't understand why, since you don't live the the US, why you think you have to come to Bush's defense on danged near any issue... Hey, the guy is a liar. And that's the truth...
Crook? Well, lets put it this way. His campiagn finaciers are doing very, very well. Pick a donor and you'll see favorable policies and contarcts... That's the way the Mafia runs... Thief? Well, I've provided you with the evidence. It is way too much to present here in this forum. How you coming with it?

And, BTW, Merry Christmas...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: TIA
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 11:49 AM

If I get to be a muppet, I would prefer to be Kermit since he plays the banjo better than I. Second choice would be Telly Monster who bangs out a kick-ass triangle. Third, of course, would be Mr. Hoots, but I'd have to put down the ducky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 07:30 PM

Bobert -

Congratulations on an objective post.

One of my proudest possesions is an "Eve of Poll" leaflet issued by the Canterbury Conservative Candidate in 1997 accusing the Labour Party of "importing" thier "Allistair Campbell Clone" from Wales !!

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 06:35 PM

Well, Frank. I have a feeling that this issue is not going to go away and with the unprecidented meanspirited partisanship of the currebt batch of Repubs., that the Dems are going to take off the gloves in '04 and make some of these character issues campaign issues. Yeah, Gore wasn't up to exploiting Bush's many character flaws (dishonesty, alcoholism, womanizing, cocaine, etc.) and look what it got them. No, it seems that if the Dems are gonna win back the White House then these issues will have to be *carefully* played. Especially if Clark is on the ticket, wyhcih I have a felling he will be. He can take Bush on on this issue.

But as a sidebar, let me get back to the "carefull" playing of these issues. The Repubs have done two things very well. First, they have instilled anti-governemnt feelings in way too many of the voters. All they gotta say is, "Do you want "Big Governemnt" in your pocket? Heck no, you don't! Vote for me!" The they go about fleecing the tax pay payer worse many time than the Dems would have done.

Secondly, they have also instilled in many voters that personal attacks are off limit. They had to do this after personally attaqcking Bill Clinton on a daily basis for the entire 8 years that Clinton was president. But they have achieved this abnd will be quick to lean on their buddies in the media to run stories on the news about the Dems using personal attacks and lots of folks will be turned off to the Dems... Meanwhile, the Repubs will run ads that say, "Congessman X is a baby killer! Call Congressman X and tell him that America isn't about killing babies...". Now will the media report that as being an attack ad? Heck no, they won't... But you'll be hearing more "Call Congressman X" attack ads in '04 run by Repubs than ever... And then they will squeel like stick pigs if they percieve their guy's lack of integrity being called into question. That's why it's going to have to be done with utmost care and by Wesley Clark...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 03:47 PM

"Nice one chaps, can't attack the evidence, can't attack the logic, so attack the person making the comments that blows your arguements to smithereens."

Hi Teribus. No personal attack on my part. I am listening very
carefully to what you say. So far, I haven't delivered an
ad hominem argument. I respect your opinions although I don't agree with them.




FACT - Was there any charge of being absent without leave ever raised with repect to Lt. George W. Bush's service in the Air National Guard? - NO.

Counterfact: Yes. But it was not done by Bush's personal connections who suceeded in covering it up.

FACT - Did Lt. George W. Bush apply for early release from his six year term of engagement, after having been "in" for five years, four months and five days? - YES

CounterFact: And did he do it because he had a special pull as the
president's son? Yes.

FACT - Was that request put through official channels and was it approved? - YES, his remaining time was spent in a reserve unit of the ANG. Were such requests uncommon and were such request normally denied? - NO

CounterFact: These requests are reserved for the army elite. Those who have special political dispensation. It happens all the time. The army is not an egalitarian or democratic organization. It plays
favorites all the time and Bush got his share of them.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year as well Teribus.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 03:34 PM

Hi Teribus,

I have been giving some thought to your points.

"You appear to suffering from massive date confusion."

I don't think so.

Joined ANG 1968; entered flight training 1969; completed flight training July 1970; Alabama non-flying status May 1972; Suspended from flying due to lack of medical September 1972; Back with Texas ANG at Ellington flying May, June; July 1973; applied for and got early discharge to go to University after 5 years four months and five days service.

Yes and where was he the last part of Sept through May, June or July
if he had really been there then.

Where is the proof that this bit of information is valid?



"He volunteered for flight school but didn't follow through."

"Didn't follow through with what Frank? He did qualify operational on the aircraft being flown by the Texas ANG in 1970 having volunteered in 1968 - didn't follow through on what Frank?"

Went AWOL in late '72 through middle of '73. Prove that he didn't.
I did quote sources for my argument, however. I can reiterate if you like.


"Can't have it both ways Frank, in one sentence you say that he volunteered for flight school and didn't follow through - in the next you say the reason he got into flight school to begin with was to avoid enlisting in the overseas service."

Yes I can It's possible that someone joins the Guard to keep from going overseas and didn't complete his service.

"Now as we do know that he did qualify as a pilot the first contention (regarding not following through) is a complete and utter crock."

Would you get into a plane with him? I wouldn't.

" The second is also false because serving in the ANG was not a means of ensuring that you did not serve overseas, quite a number of ANG Squadrons spent time in Vietnam."

But that is not the case with our hero. He made sure he didn't.


" Mind you he was fortunate in the aircraft type flown by 147 ANG - the F-102 was withdrawn from combat service in Vietnam in 1969 - while GWB was undergoing flight training. That means Frank that at the time he volunteered there was every possibility that 147th ANG, flying F-102's could have been sent overseas."

He was very fortunate. His daddy saw to that.

"The reason he got grounded was that he missed a flying medical while assigned in a non-flying status."

And this is because he was nowhere to be found when contacted for
the physical.

" He subsequently regained his operational status by passing his next flying medical."

Possibly. He may have taken it later.

"Now let me tell you about some Kuwaiti babies thrown from their incubators by Saddam's men in 1990. And believe me this story is the absolute truth - Or at least the baby/incubator story is as true as the Bush/AWOL story "

Well my dear Teribus, it has to be true because Bush and his adminstration made it up. :)

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:40 AM

Nice one chaps, can't attack the evidence, can't attack the logic, so attack the person making the comments that blows your arguements to smithereens.

Quite amused at TIA's up-take on what I said in response to some thing Ebbie said earlier in this thread regarding "influence" and assignments in the forces:

"Teribus seems to be making the following syllogism:

Several British Royals were prosecuted for going AWOL.
An American President has never been prosecuted.
Therefore, the American President did not go AWOL."

Go back and read what was written you muppet!!

Three of the current "Royals" have served in the British armed forces - none have been prosecuted for going AWOL - all were treated in exactly the same manner as their colleagues while serving.

Prince Andrew - served as a front-line helicopter pilot during the Falklands War.

Prince Edward - joined the Royal Marines, when it was patently obvious that he was not physically capable of completing his training, pressure was brought to bear to "allow" him to finish his training and pass-out on the understanding that he would then resign his commission. The Royal Marines refused point blank to cave in to that pressure and he was withdrawn from training.

FACT - Was there any charge of being absent without leave ever raised with repect to Lt. George W. Bush's service in the Air National Guard? - NO.

FACT - Did Lt. George W. Bush apply for early release from his six year term of engagement, after having been "in" for five years, four months and five days? - YES

FACT - Was that request put through official channels and was it approved? - YES, his remaining time was spent in a reserve unit of the ANG. Were such requests uncommon and were such request normally denied? - NO

Now as much as you all want to deny the above, wishful thinking on your part does not, and will not, alter any of the above - Live with it, don't lie about it.

A very Merry Christamas and a happy and prosperous New Year tae ain and a'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 09:11 PM

Frank: the sentence was commuted by Nixon. A search for "+calley +trial" will get you a lot of information; here is one of the possible links.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 08:15 PM

Good points, Frank. I love it when poor ol' T-zer gets nailed because what it means is thet he'll send it up the chain of cammand to his boss's PR folks, they'll crew on it, spin it and come uyp with yet a bigger and better lie. It's so, so entertaining..

Okay, now this can't be confirmed but the word on the street is that T-Bird was in a crowded elevator when his hero Bush "let one loose" and without a second thought the T said "Oh! Excues me! Danged omelette's always do that to me!" Like I said, we dohn't have confirmation on this one but it sounds like our T-Bird to me....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 06:45 PM

Artbrooks, which civilians commuted Calley's sentence? This shows
how much interaction takes place between politicians and the military. The idea that the military is uninfluenced by civilian
political pressure is absurd. Calley certainly should have done
the equivalent time that any murderer does.

BTW Teribus, there is some evidence that Bush did not finish out
his tenure. There were statements by the commanding officer at
Ellington.   But there is no evidence that he did. Much of
the evidence was destroyed apparently.

However there is no evidence at all to support the incubator
atrocities.

Regarding the above letter, having reread it, I believe that it
is a carefully crafted piece of propaganda. Part of it makes me
question it's veracity. "Hillary Clinton is coming here tomorrow. For her sake I hope I don't see her. I might do something crazy like spit in her direction." For someone who is on the front
lines to insult a US senator makes me question the motive for
their being in Iraq in the first place. They certainly are not engaged in defending American's freedom of expression.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 04:10 PM

Frank: the military convicted Mr. Calley and sentenced him to 20 years in Leavenworth. The civilians then commuted his sentence to time already served, about 18 months under house arrest in his Ft. Benning BOQ room, and separated him with a dishonorable discharge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM

Agreed, Frank. It should be nominated for admission to the Farcical Myth Hall of Fame, where the real Whoppers are put up on the wall in colorful plaster representations.

It would be a real hit.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 01:36 PM

"Doesn't matter a toss how late he was Bobert, the fact still remains, if he had been AWOL the military would have run him for "irrespective of who he was, who his father was, or who his dog's uncle was."

Not necessarilly. The military has it's elistist wing as it is
not only an organization based on it's ability to kill but is a
political unit as well. There are ample examples of military
crimes that have not been processed and the guilty allowed to
go free because rank and privilege. Mi Lai for example. But
in the case of W, all evidence against him was destroyed.

The idea that somehow the military is this honest tribunal that
is exempt from political deception is a farcical myth.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM

an imagined scenario might go something like this:

WHITE HOUSE, staff meeting

"I know let's what! Let's get that chap over in UK, what's himself? No I didn't say he wets himself, but he may, you know. Yeh, that rabid rightwinger-ex-military-talking-tough, starts with a T, yeh Terripuss, that's the gal, yeh we get her to keep dragging along all those liberals in the chat rooms, while we can get on wif it everywhere else. They'll all be so busy trying to follow its logic and unable to escape that dogged persistent repitition of whatever we agree with that we'll be free to do pretty much want we want.

Mr. President, you'll be re-appointed before they can say Barb's your uncle! I know she's not your uncle, it's just an expression, I meant no respect to your mother, sir, believe me!"

"Yes sir, 11 days later and they're still at it. That Terripuss really cracks me up. No sir, I don't have any crack on me, it's just an expression, I think Cheney may have some for you though. Now that Terripuss is on the dead-baby-incubator thing, that'll keep them occupied for a while. No sir not AWOL, a while, I know you were busy sir, and rank has its privilege, isn't it? and you certainly are rank, if anybody is sir. yes sir, I know you were a lieutenant, and that is a rank, well thought through, sir, maybe it's time for a nap now or should we just wait till 8 PM so you'll get a good nights sleep?"......


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: TIA
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 02:12 PM

Teribus seems to be making the following syllogism:


Several British Royals were prosecuted for going AWOL.
An American President has never been prosecuted.
Therefore, the American President did not go AWOL.


The spin that I sense is Aristotle in his grave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM

On the subject of GWB going AWOL, which is now generally accepted as true: we'll never know, as all of his service records have gone missing. Strange, that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 05:11 AM

Particularly as the computer assisted action information systems on RN ships on recognising the attack signature identified it as "friendly", Exocet being a NATO weapon.

On their way down to the Falklands the French put two Super Etendard squadrons at the disposal of the British Task Force and they ran attack drills as they sailed south, finally departing as the British ships passed Dakar on the west coast of Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 02:41 AM

The Exocet was a nasty weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:00 AM

SueB 17 Dec 03 - 05:32 PM Asks

"What do dead babies have to do with Bush being AWOL for a good portion of his military service?"....the baby/incubator story is as true as the Bush/AWOL story.

I see you subscribe to the same high regard for circumstantial evidence as does Bobert. I would be worried about your 'logic', than mine, when applied to the subject being discussed. What in effect you are saying is:

" if (I believe, or think that) a person commits a crime, but gets away with (what I think, or believe he/she did) it, i.e. is not prosecuted for it (i.e. nobody else thought this person did anything wrong), then the crime (that only I think was perpetrated) didn't happen or must not have been a crime."

The correct expression, by the bye, is, "Rank hath its privileges" and the "hath" seems to indicate Biblical rather than military origins.

Anyone who truly knows anything about leadership knows that the expression you referred to about "rank has it's privileges" is false. There are very few, if any, privileges that go with rank, and the ones that might be there, don't in any way make up for the burden of the responsibility.

Thank you for admiring my touching faith in the military judicial system - despite the fact that such faith on my part does not exist, the military judicial system is as flawed as any other - but I am at least speaking from experience. While in the forces, one thing I did have faith in was the disciplinary code of conduct - difference between that and the military judicial system. Violate the first, the second becomes involved.

Question for you SueB - doesn't matter who their fathers (mothers?) are - HRH Duke of York, second son of HM Queen, 1982 Falklands, Helicopter Pilot flying SeaKings acting as decoys for Argentinian missile attacks - that was special treatment was it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SueB
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 05:32 PM

Keep it up, folks, you've really got him on the ropes now. I could tell when he started shouting "Dead babies! Dead babies!" What do dead babies have to do with Bush being AWOL for a good portion of his military service?

You're showing us some scary thinking, Teribus. By your 'logic', if a person commits a crime, but gets away with it, i.e. is not prosecuted for it, then the crime didn't happen or must not have been a crime.

I admire your touching, if naive (credulous, gullible, etc.) faith in the military judicial system if you really think every soldier is treated the same no matter who their fathers' friends are or aren't.   Isn't it from the military that we have the expression "Rank has it's priveleges"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 02:53 PM

He was not charged with or convicted by court martial for the offense of AWOL. It is unfortunate, but not unusual, for officers to be allowed to resign or, if they have only a brief period of time remaining on their obligated service for it to just run out, rather than be subjected to a court martial. Reminds me a lot of the LTC in Iraq who is being allowed to resign in lieu of court martial after he held an (unloaded) pistol to the head of a prisoner and pulled the trigger-twice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:47 AM

Doesn't matter a toss how late he was Bobert, the fact still remains, if he had been AWOL the military would have run him for it, irrespective of who he was, who his father was, or who his dog's uncle was.

They didn't did they - the answer to that is a straightforward Yes or No.

As we all know they didn't then the answer is NO. Therefore he did not go AWOL - nothing revisionist about that from this side of the discussion, you and others are the ones attempting to revise the history of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:46 AM

And George Washington cut down the apple tree... Don't firgit that one while adding more revisions to history... It's not like he was 15 minutes late to the physical, Teribus, and had to return the following day...

Since you enjoy research so much, hows about telling the fine folks here just how late Mr. Bush was...

Your attempt to connect a real story with a fabricated one is, at best, below you. But I guess if you're content on spending so much of your energy defending every danged thing that Bush does, yer gonna have to use a lot of trickery...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:02 AM

GUEST,Frank 16 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM

You appear to suffering from massive date confusion.

Joined ANG 1968; entered flight training 1969; completed flight training July 1970; Alabama non-flying status May 1972; Suspended from flying due to lack of medical September 1972; Back with Texas ANG at Ellington flying May, June; July 1973; applied for and got early discharge to go to University after 5 years four months and five days service.

"He volunteered for flight school but didn't follow through."

Didn't follow through with what Frank? He did qualify operational on the aircraft being flown by the Texas ANG in 1970 having volunteered in 1968 - didn't follow through on what Frank?

Can't have it both ways Frank, in one sentence you say that he volunteered for flight school and didn't follow through - in the next you say the reason he got into flight school to begin with was to avoid enlisting in the overseas service.

Now as we do know that he did qualify as a pilot the first contention (regarding not following through) is a complete and utter crock. The second is also false because serving in the ANG was not a means of ensuring that you did not serve overseas, quite a number of ANG Squadrons spent time in Vietnam. Mind you he was fortunate in the aircraft type flown by 147 ANG - the F-102 was withdrawn from combat service in Vietnam in 1969 - while GWB was undergoing flight training. That means Frank that at the time he volunteered there was every possibility that 147th ANG, flying F-102's could have been sent overseas.

The reason he got grounded was that he missed a flying medical while assigned in a non-flying status. He subsequently regained his operational status by passing his next flying medical.

Now let me tell you about some Kuwaiti babies thrown from their incubators by Saddam's men in 1990. And believe me this story is the absolute truth - Or at least the baby/incubator story is as true as the Bush/AWOL story


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM

"Frank is wittering on about flight schools and about learning to be a pilot - mid-1972 remember.

Having qualified as operational in Delta Dagger F-102A fighter aircraft in July 1970 - why would GWB be required to attend flight school?"

Never said he was required. He volunteered for flight school but didn't follow through.


"In May 1972 he did not need to learn to be a pilot he was one already - combat rated to boot, just go and find out what that means Frank."

The reason he got into flight school to begin with was to
avoid enlisting in the overseas service. If he was so qualified,
why did he avoid this service? Answer: To go to Harvard Business School. And if he was so qualified as a pilot, how come he got grounded?


" The ANG sent him to Montgomery AFB where there were no F-102 Squadron's or aircraft. The aircraft type had already started being withdrawn from service by the ANG in 1969. So when his flying medical came due in the summer of 1972, just what was he going to fly?"

That's the point. He could follow through on helping his friend's candidacy in Alabama and avoid the whole deal. It was clever evasion.

The wittering you mention doesn't sound like it's coming from this quarter.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:51 AM

To answer your question regarding cross-training to another type of aircraft. Normally this would be done by unit, not individually, time taken seems to have been around 12 months for ANG Squadrons.

This would have meant that GWB would have been passed operational on his new aircraft type just in time for him to be discharged, that would have been a waste of time and resources. Additionally the aircraft that replaced the F-102's were F-4 Phantoms, a major difference in aircraft types being that the Delta Dagger was a single-seat all-weather interceptor, whereas the Phantom was a two-seat aircraft.

The official paperwork indicates that GWB assigned to Danelly AFB effective 15th May, 1972 with a non-flying status. His suspension from flying duties was dated 1st August 1972. That suspension makes reference to corrective action on the the part of the officer in question - basically get your medical - which GWB did later that year because he was flying again in 1973.

The AWOL thing just does not fly gents - sorry about that - the forces are particularly strict on this sort of thing and double standards are just not an option. Doesn't matter how well connected (examples: HRH Prince Charles & Prince Andrew at BRNC Dartmouth; and Prince Edward at RM CTC Lympstone) No charges brought, no official complaint registered.

But then I know that Bobert is of the school of thought that legally circumstantial evidence is everything so I'll make a deal. Every time you guys come with with this chesnut I'll come up with a plea for all those babies thrown out of incubators in Kuwaits hospitals by Saddam's troops when they invaded Kuwait in 1990.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:33 AM

The military, unlike private pilots, conduct their own flight physicals on their pilots. Had Georgie been where he was supposed to be he would have had his physical. But he wasn't...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:51 AM

Is it conceivable that there was some desire to transition this hightly experienced pilot into some other type of aircraft? BTW, flight physicals are (and were) a requirement for individuals with flight ratings, regardless of whether or not they are (or were) actively flying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:50 AM

So, T... You are gonna read the Palist book? Really? Better be sure to have yer seat belt buckled 'cause it's gonna turn yer world upside down... An' then yer gonna have to come back here an' admit to being a knothead...

Jus' funning', T-zer... Not about yer world getting turned upside down but about the hnothead part...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:39 AM

ROTFLMFAO - Why?

"Facts jus' ain't their cup o' tea...

Bobert"

Oh Bobert I didn't realise there was some sort of time-frame in which I had to complete the reading of the book you advised (now appears ordered) me to read.

Now about some details for Frank (now we are talking about mid 1972 here):

Frank is wittering on about flight schools and about learning to be a pilot - mid-1972 remember.

Having qualified as operational in Delta Dagger F-102A fighter aircraft in July 1970 - why would GWB be required to attend flight school? In May 1972 he did not need to learn to be a pilot he was one already - combat rated to boot, just go and find out what that means Frank. The ANG sent him to Montgomery AFB where there were no F-102 Squadron's or aircraft. The aircraft type had already started being withdrawn from service by the ANG in 1969. So when his flying medical came due in the summer of 1972, just what was he going to fly?


Facts Bobert are a damn sight more my cup of tea than they are yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 04:57 AM

Fact Bobert, or opinions ?

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 11:28 PM

Danged, Frank, don't confuse these folks with facts. They ain't wired to accept 'em.... T-Bird has been avidin' me like I had a bad case of radiation ever since I, ahhh, provided him with book filled with those nasty little facts about the 2000 Election/Selection...

So don't get too disappointed when they don't show back 'round this thread. Facts jus' ain't their cup o' tea...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:52 PM

I need to clarify my argument.   Bush moved to Alabama to work on a friend's campaign in May of 1972. He asked the Guard to be
temporarily at Maxwell Air Force Base. The Guard agreed but there were no planes or pilots there. Bush couldn't learn to be a pilot there.

Albert Lloyd Jr., the Texas Air Guard's personnel director informed the Boston Globe that he was astonished that Bush could do this.The Boston Glove said, "Flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and some were assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Mongomery where Bush was living."
Bush didn't take the physical and was grounded.

The commander of the Montgomery unit said that he had no record
of Bush ever reporting for duty. Albert Lloyd Jr. said that if Bush had reported it would have been logged, certified and sent to
Ellington Air Force Base in Houston. He said that they were unable to find the records that he fulfilled his requirements in Alabama. Bush did not return to his unit at Ellington. The notation dated May 2, 1973 on his performance record noted that "Lieutenant Bush has not been observed at this unit" for the past year.

In May, June and July, '73 Bush did 36 days of duty at Ellington, got permission to end his duty early so he could go to Harvard Business School.

In September 26, 1999, Ben Barnes a former Speaker of the House was quoted as saying in the New York Times that a Houston oilman
named Sidney Adger, a friend of Bush Senior asked him to pull strings for W and Barnes contacted the Brigadier General of the Guard.

In Houston, well-connected and well-heeled sons of families got into the 147th Fighter Unit of the Texas Air National Guard that was called the "Champagne Unit".

In the Houston Chronicle in 1994 quotes Bush saying in 1990,
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor wwas I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." On his application papers he was unwilling to volunteer for overseas duty.

OK, lets see the evidence to prove the above wrong.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:09 AM

Right you are Teribus. Bush was AWOL in Alabama where they
didn't have a flight school. You can check that out.

Claymore, my opinions have evidence to back them up. Challenge each one and I will give you what I believe to be credible evidence.

Please substantiate your claims as well. They need to be factually challenged.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 05:12 AM

GUEST,Frank - 14 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM

As said by Claymore your "facts" are purely your opinions.

On tax cuts, that method of revitalising economies has been tried by others in the past and it has been found to be effective - Germany at the moment attempting to do precisely that.

On the AWOL bit - you said - "Fact: Bush was grounded for being AWOL in Alabama because he didn't take a physical." The bit about not taking a flying medical was very true. Now why didn't he take a flying medical, check it out Frank, what was he going to fly in Alabama?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 03:59 AM

GUEST,guest from NW 12 Dec 03 - 04:39 AM,

I don't believe I made any comment about the letters/e-mails. I was aked a specific question relating to the the reports about people being turned away and how it could be justified. Exigencies of the service, might sound like smug crap to you, but it is the sort of thing that does happen in the armed forces when VIP's turn up. If you had ever been in the forces you would know that, and definitiely you would have experienced it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 11:38 PM

The legal limit in Maine at the present time is 0.08%. The discussion is, or should be, whether or not Mr. Bush was Operating Under the Influence according to the laws in effect in 1976.

The bigger question is what the hell that has to do with whether or not he was fulfilling his responsibilities as the Commander in Chief by visiting soldiers in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 10:30 PM

When was an opinion changed in the face of indisputable facts?

What I found most interesting in this thread was: in Maine a BAC of .15 is considered the legal limit? I thought that was a little high, so I found a source to support my argument (wink, wink). Here, let me paste it in for you:

BAC = .12-.15 = Vomiting usually occurs, unless this level is reached slowly or a person has developed a tolerance to alcohol. Drinkers are drowsy.

Drinkers display emotional instability, loss of critical judgment, impairment of perception, memory, and comprehension.

Lack of sensor-motor coordination and impaired balance are typical. Decreased sensory responses and increased reaction times develop. The vision is significantly impaired, including limited ability to see detail, peripheral vision, and slower glare recovery.

7. BAC = .15 = This blood-alcohol level means the equivalent of 1/2 pint of whiskey is circulating in the blood stream.


Here's my source. For me this means about 7.5oz (6 drinks) of 80 proof alcohol within a one hour period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM

Frank, it seems our messages passed in the night, I was referring to your message of 12:11 PM. As for your second, it is patently obvious you cannot distinguish fact from your opinions...

As I said, you make it too damned easy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:22 PM

Frank, Your comment is completely without a scintilla of evidence. But the really neat thing about it, is the way it is destroying Howard Dean's credibility. He made that charge several weeks ago, and has been asked at almost every news conference about any proof he had when making it. He has been backpedaling like a man who brought a spoon to a knife fight ever since.

I love it; keep making 'em up. It's not that you're stupid, it's that you're so damn easy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:19 PM

Thankee fir your well written post, Frank... But I think you'll agree that Bush and his buddies will just tell their lies louder and more often. Hey, they have the micophone....

Like Teribus will believe tham, that's fir sure. He never met a Bush lie he didn't like. I challenged him to read Greg Palist's "Best Democracy Money Can Buy" since T loves tiny little details. It is well written and has all the details about how Bush's brother, Jeb, and Katherine Harris cleverly removed 57,000 predominently Democratic voters from the voting roles in Florida. But do you think T has any interst in learning the truth? Heck, no... Not a dimes worth of interst in anything except supporting every danged thing Bush does...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM

"Thief: No proof offer purely opinion - no past form, no pending prosecution."

Fact: The taxpayers of America are being robbed by this horrendous tax cut which favors the higher percentage of exemptions of the wealthy. It's Robin Hood in reverse.

Liar: No proof offered only opinion - only depending upon how obtuse you want to be in understanding what was being said on the matter being addressed.

Fact: Every campaign promise has been violated with the exception of
capturing Saddam. Everything he has said has been contrary to his actions on the environment, global warming, education, benefits for veterans, drug prescriptions for the elderly (which is a ruse because it favors the drug and insurance companies and not the elderly),
phony WMDS, a workable Star Wars (that's the biggest lie and joke of all), the so-called Texas Miracle has been exposed, check the numbers,the "uniter" has turned "divider",the underhanded politcal manuevers by the Karl Rove crowd in viciously attacking the patriotism of such as Max Cleland who really served his country and didn't go AWOL for nine monthes in the Texas National Guard as Bush did but lost limbs in action. He lied about a clean campaign. He lied about the "fuzzy math" that he suggested others were doing.
He offered his own brand of fuzzy math that America will be paying for quite a while.


"Crook: No proof offered only opinion - On Harkin Energy, he cashed in $700,000, after predicting that the Company was getting a little out of its depth. He disagreed with the decision to pursue the offshore drilling contract in the middle east and pulled out of the company. Had he left is money in the company and had waited for another 9 to 12 months he would have made double that amount. Minor details Bobert."

Fact: What he did was in violation of the SEC. His adminstration has weakened that body so that it has no juice to investigate this
Enron-style fraud and he has profitted from it financially while his share-holders went broke. He may have made more money if he were allowed to get away with it but he had to leave the ship.

"Cheat: No proof offered only opinion - No charge exists, or record of disciplinary action having been taken, no recorded complaints, did qualify as "combat capable" in Delta Dagger, single-seat, all-weather, super-sonic interceptor, which is what he joined to do, US tax payers money was spent to train a pilot and that is what the US tax payer got."

Fact: Bush was grounded for being AWOL in Alabama because he didn't take a physical. Tax payers money was spent to train a deserter from the Texas Guard. There is no evidence to support that he attended
Guard service by the commander of the Montgomery unit that he was a part of. Ellington Air Force base in Houston shows no record of his attendance from about May '72 through '73. Lloyd, the commander said, "We cannot find the records to show that he fulfilled the requirements in Alabama." He did not honor his vows. He got taxpayers money and cut out on his unit.

"Half-wit: I don't agree here. He knows just what he's doing... I also believe he knows what he is doing and not doing a bad job of it at all."

Fact: Bush is not a half-wit but a wily and unscrupulous politican that will say and do anything to get elected. He just doesn't have good judgement to make a good president. He has alienated the world community and caused havoc in both Afghanistan and Iraq. American troops will be in those countries for some time to come. Vietnam revisited.

"International terror -
He has got the entire world focused on this. People are now more watchful than ever before. International and inter-departmental co-operation has never been better."

Fact: He has used the "terror" issue as a political ploy to advance his agenda. He has cut the budget for Homeland Security. Check the records.

"US Economy -
NYSE September 2001 7,700 something points, yesterday it briefly bounced through the 10,000 barrier to fall back marginally to just under the 10,000 mark. That is an increase of roughly 23%. Growth figures for the US Economy 8.4% - that is four times the rate of Europe and the far east. US interst rates at the lowest level they have ever been and likely to remain so for some time to come. Exchange rate at present means that US consumers will find foreign imports more expensive than domestically produced goods."

Fact: His administration is overseeing the highest rate of unemployment in America since the Depression days of Herbert Hoover.
The rich are getting richer, the poor, poorer. Interest rates are not the lowest they've ever been. And if they go lower, it could trigger a Depression like we had in the 1930's.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scounderel".

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 02:35 PM

Amos - I do not disagree with your post.

I am afraid that your apt comments are being used as a diversion by others from thier untenable and inaccurate positions.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 01:31 PM

"...they are gone where the forests of oak trees before.
gone to be wasted in battle." (Dancing at Whitsun)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:31 PM

"Bush is still a coward - then prove it - evidence is that when faced with the worst atrocity committed on American soil he did not shirk his responsibility, he showed the resolve and courage to take some very tough decisions - I do not believe for a minute he took them lightly. If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself."

Fact: Bush and Rice knew about the impending attack on 911 in the preceding July and did nothing to prepare for it. In fact, there is evidence that this "intelligence" was known prior to the July date. The responsibility was shirked. The American people were kept in the dark about this as well. Runs true to form.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 01:05 AM

Amos,

Your post was at once poignant, tragic, beautiful and terrible. What a waste of young people.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 10:38 PM

What Amos reported, Gareth...

And don't worry, I have said here in the joint that my Green butt will be knockin' on doors and doing whatever the Dems need me to do... And you can take that to the bank!!!...

Wanta join me?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 08:12 PM

A telling extract fromt he letter written by a nurse in Germany who tends to US soldiers wounded in Iraq:

"My `Bush Thanksgiving' was a little different . . . I spent it at the hospital taking care of a young West Point lieutenant wounded in Iraq. He had stabilization of his injuries in Iraq and then two long surgeries here for multiple injuries; he's just now stable enough to send back to the USA. After a few bites of dinner I let him sleep, and then cried with him as he woke up from a nightmare. When he pressed his fists into his eyes and rocked his head back and forth he looked like a little boy. They all do, all 19 on the ward that day, some missing limbs, eyes, or worse.

"There are two more long wards just like this one. The ICU has been receiving soldiers for many months now, often unconscious young men on ventilators with wives and parents (our age) bending over the beds, stroking whatever part isn't bandaged, pinned, or burned. It requires a deep breath and strong heart anymore to walk through those swinging doors; I know the photo IDs outside the rooms will bear little resemblance to the men in the rooms.

"It's too bad Mr. Bush didn't add us to his holiday agenda. The men said the same, but you'll never read that in the paper. Mr. President would rather lift fake turkeys for photo ops, it seems. Maybe because my patients wouldn't make very pleasant photos . . . most don't look all that great, and the ones with facial wounds and external fixation devices look downright scary. And a heck of a lot of them can't talk, anyway, and some never will talk again. . . Well, this is probably more than you want to know, but there's no spin on this one. It's pure carnage . . . Like all wars, the "shock and awe" eventually trickles down to blood and death. But you won't see that. I do, every single day."

War is hell. That is not news. Young men and women die. Some lucky ones suffer dreadful injuries but survive. Proponents of this war say it is the cost of defending freedom, fighting terrorism, keeping power in our hands and out of our enemies'. Opponents believe the country was drawn into it by lies and misrepresentations and now stands alienated from the rest of the world with no clear way out. The arguments go around and around, on television, radio, and newspaper opinion pages.

As the country argues, Americans die, soldier by soldier; others are horribly injured, pool of blood by pool of blood. This nurse sees what we do not. She reminds us all, attention should be paid, from the top down, from the president to the people. It took physical courage for Bush to go to Baghdad on Thanksgiving Day. It takes courage of another kind to look into the eyes of the soldiers described by this nurse, even more courage to look into the eyes of family members who have lost a loved one. "...

Regards,

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 07:59 PM

You can bet your ass I'll be working to make Bush unemployed


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM

Well Bobert and others.

I suggest you discuss this with the people of Kuwait, the Kurds, The Marsh Arabs, and other assorted odds and sods, oh and the people of Iraq.

You have in the past, and now again, advocated the assasination of S H. Why would you suggest that if he were not a "bad man" ?

Tho history might suggest that the attempts of the US of A to assasinate Castro have not been entirely succesfull.

What I find demeaning is your constant arguement that as SH wos our "bad man" no action should have been taken.

I respectfully suggest that your hatred of Bush Jnr clouds your judgement. It would (in my humble, non US oppinion) be better if Bush Jnr was not President. Perhaps yer energies might be better spent in doing your little bit to ensure a maximum anti-Bush vote next year.

Gareth


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