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BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier

GUEST,Claymore 09 Dec 03 - 10:52 AM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 11:03 AM
Peter T. 09 Dec 03 - 11:07 AM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 11:13 AM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 Dec 03 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,pdc 09 Dec 03 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Teribus 09 Dec 03 - 11:32 AM
GUEST, Claymore 09 Dec 03 - 12:06 PM
Ebbie 09 Dec 03 - 12:25 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 12:40 PM
Peg 09 Dec 03 - 12:42 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 12:46 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM
Bobert 09 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM
SueB 09 Dec 03 - 01:19 PM
Kim C 09 Dec 03 - 01:31 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Kendall 09 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,kendall 09 Dec 03 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Claymore 09 Dec 03 - 01:52 PM
SINSULL 09 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM
Wesley S 09 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM
SINSULL 09 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 09 Dec 03 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Claymore 09 Dec 03 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Teribus 09 Dec 03 - 02:22 PM
DougR 09 Dec 03 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM
Kim C 09 Dec 03 - 03:06 PM
Ebbie 09 Dec 03 - 03:19 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 03:25 PM
Kim C 09 Dec 03 - 03:32 PM
mg 09 Dec 03 - 04:17 PM
kendall 09 Dec 03 - 04:56 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Dec 03 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,Teribus 09 Dec 03 - 06:21 PM
Bobert 09 Dec 03 - 06:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 03 - 06:47 PM
boglion 09 Dec 03 - 06:56 PM
Greg F. 09 Dec 03 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,guest from the NW 09 Dec 03 - 07:00 PM
Little Hawk 09 Dec 03 - 07:10 PM
Gareth 09 Dec 03 - 07:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 03 - 07:35 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 08:02 PM
artbrooks 09 Dec 03 - 08:14 PM
Bobert 09 Dec 03 - 09:43 PM
Greg F. 09 Dec 03 - 10:04 PM
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Subject: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:52 AM

Below is an email from a friend of mine, who forewarded it from one of her friends at UMD where she works. Her daughter is stationed in Iraq. I have removed the address information and a portion where she quotes Bush's speech, so that her words speak for themselves. I wrote her mother and said that she should send this to a newspaper or something, and that I'm prouder than hell to know her. ( I also completely regret everything I have ever said that was negative about women in the service).


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > To:
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 7:41 PM
> Subject: Subject: Bush at Baghdad
> > From: Simone L----n
> > ==========================
> > Yes, I was there.
> > It was totally insane. Let me start from the
> beginning in the hope that I
> > can catch my breath. Several days ago I received an
> All Hands email asking
> > anyone who wanted to go to a 'Thanksgiving Dinner
> with the Troops' to
> > respond with ID number and some other information.
> The email said there
> > would be a lottery drawing for the few seats
> available. This morning I
> > received notice that I had won (!!) and to go to a
> meeting point at 1500.
> > Anyway long story short, I arrived at the airport
> with about 15-20 others,
> > and was escorted into the huge chow hall where
> several hundred soldiers were
> > sitting. I found an empty spot at one of the tables
> and started chatting
> > with the men and women in uniform. They were shy at
> first, thinking I was
> > some kind of VIP (hardly!). We talked about home and
> what we are doing
> > here- and slowly they relaxed. And so did I. Time
> ticked on- and we were
> > there over an hour, waiting for something.anything.
> Bremer and Sanchez came
> > in- still nothing. What were we waiting for, I
> wondered? The guys were
> > more patient than I- just shrugging their shoulders
> and looking more and
> > more unimpressed.
> >
> > After a while, an American General stood up and
> introduced General Sanchez
> > and Ambassador Bremer. They said they wanted to read
> the President's
> > Thanksgiving declaration, but wanted the most senior
> person there to deliver
> > it. Who is more senior than those two, we wondered
> aloud..
> >
> > Then pandemonium. Literally- screaming, jumping and
> clapping. Who is it, I
> > asked- The President!! Then I, too lept up from my
> seat, not believing my
> > ears. There he was- President Bush- standing on the
> podium-smiling and
> > fighting back tears. It was an extremely emotional
> moment for everyone
> > there.
> >
> > His speech was awesome- got everyone fired up and
> motivated when people had
> > been vaguely depressed before.
> >
> > > >
> > There were a couple of standing ovations- again, very
> emotional and deeply
> > felt by all. After he finished his remarks, the
> President stepped into the
> > crowd, and greeted people for over an hour. Actually
> more like two hours.
> > He shook everyone's hand- and made a point of it. He
> would see someone
> > getting pushed aside and say 'Hey Sanchez, I'm headed
> your way.' And the
> > guys loved him. Adored him. Because they could see
> he was their guy.
> >
> > He shook my hand, too! That was pretty exciting. I
> was with another woman
> > who was a lot more cool about the whole thing than I
> was and she introduced
> > me to him. Eyes met, hands shook and he moved on.
> Wow! I'll tell you-
> > meeting the President of the United States is
> THRILLING. Especially when
> > you are in Baghdad and totally not expecting it.
> >
> > One of the other CPA people there was retired General
> Hugh Tant III. He is
> > a legend to a lot of the guys in the 82nd Airborne,
> and served in Gulf War
> > I. Now he is over here, running the currency
> exchange operation. Needless
> > to say, great guy. When we found out we were both
> selected, he asked me to
> > be his 'date.' Anyway by the time the President
> reached our table, General
> > Tant was misty-eyed. If you can call Niagara Falls
> misty. He reached into
> > his pocket and took out a coin. He told the
> President: 'I ate Thanksgiving
> > dinner with your father in Kuwait 10 years ago right
> before we jumped, and I
> > gave him one of these. Now I want you to have this
> one.' The President
> > grabbed him and gave him a huge bear hug- flashbulbs
> popped. So if you see
> > a picture of the President hugging some random old
> guy, that's General Tant.
> > Have to find out more about the coin.there has to be
> more of a story there..
> >
> > Condi Rice and Andy Card were there, too. I met them
> both- Condi Rice asked
> > if we were really surprised- she was getting a kick
> out of it. We all said
> > 'Absolutely!' Andy Card repeated my name and said it
> was nice to meet me.
> > Forgive me, foreign friends who may not know these
> names- just know that it
> > really means a lot for these guys to have their
> comander in chief come out
> > and physically support them. His coming here was a
> hugely important thing
> > for our troops- all of them- whether or not they were
> in the chow hall at
> > the airport.
> >
> > Anyway after the hundreds of handshakes and
> photographs (my battery died!!!!
> > Can you BELIEVE IT??!!!), he was off. He said a
> quick goodbye and Happy
> > Thanksgiving and then no-one could leave the airport
> for an hour until Air
> > Force One was well on its way. I am still glowing.
> >
> > In other news, winter has officially arrived here.
> The rain has started and
> > all the sand and dust has turned to mud. My pants
> are perpetually dirty-
> > splattered with mud- and my boots are looking very
> rough indeed! War is
> > hell.
> >
> > In the dining hall in the CPA palace, one of the
> kitchen staff painted a
> > huge mural of the Twin Towers.
> >
> > I am pretty much used to the attacks at this point-
> and not really scared of
> > them anymore- at least the way I used to be. I
> definitely get away from
> > windows, etc. but it seems like the attacks on the
> green zone at least are
> > launched just for the sake of media attention rather
> than to actually damage
> > anything or anyone. I will of course continue to be
> vigilant and safe, and
> > I don't want to tempt fate by scoffing too much.
> >
> > Hillary Clinton is coming here tomorrow. For her
> sake I hope I don't see
> > her. I might do something crazy like spit in her
> direction. Actually,
> > General Tant, right before the President came onto
> the podium, had a funny
> > line. When Bremer said 'someone more senior,' Tant
> turned to me and
> > commented: 'If Hillary Clinton shows up I am
> leaving.' I heard that tonight
> > in Afghanistan, where she is making a stop, the
> troops were more interested
> > in the food than her. Go figure.
> >
> > Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I am so thankful for all
> of you. Love ------
> >
> >
>> >
> >
>


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:03 AM

what a load of crap


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:07 AM

And why is she proposing to spit on Hilary Clinton? Hilary is a hawkette.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:13 AM

a lot of people percieve Hilary as a liar and an oppurtunist,


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:15 AM

Thanks to "Guest" & Peter T for your heartfelt opinions.

More especially, thanks to "Claymore" for sharing this with us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:17 AM

perception is one thing, that's your opinion on Hillary, but as to the facts, 'liar and opportunist' is the most concise and apt description of George W. Bush I've ever seen


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:25 AM

I can easily visualize GWB being friendly, happy, hugging everyone. That's the photo-op thing -- the only part of his entire presidency that he does well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:32 AM

Thanks for the mail, Claymore. The lassie's description certainly matched the reaction of those present as seen on the BBC coverage of the event.

She definitely had Thanksgiving Dinner then and not papier-mache??

She also confirms that she was not rushed there to have her Thanksgiving Dinner instead of breakfast.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST, Claymore
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:06 PM

Teribus,
Actually the paper-mache thing explains what I think they served me in the 'Nam, but back then it was called turkey loaf. And to think that some where else on that day, there was a real turkey, with all the fixings, sitting on a counter...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:25 PM

In what way is her reaction meaningful? Does that mean that she/they understand and approve the administration's actions? Does it mean that they have a clue as to what will happen next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:40 PM

Troops like to see the people who sent them. (I'm reminded of a line from a Lt. Col. Sumner. A civilian approached him at an airport and asked him what he was doing in Vietnam. He replied, "I thought you knew; you sent me!") The C-in-C is the ultimate representative of both the military and the public. It's a function that goes with the presidency. I think it was gutsy he went.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peg
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:42 PM

Gag me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:46 PM

With a spoon?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

Sorry, Peg, that was uncalled for on my part. However, the kid went where she was told. Soldiers do that, and there but for the grace of G-d . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

With a pretzel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM

Well, there is absolutely no doubt about the partisan nature of the author of this email... Died in the wool Republican... Can't say anything about anything without draggin' a Clinton in to bash. Normal!

This person is just one person who has biases and prejudices of, ahhhh... one danged person and *not* those of everyone servin' in Iraq.

As for the trip, I do give credit to Bush for going but I deduct points for dragging the media with him when those in the media were not allowed to talks with any of the troops?!?!?... But given the way that Bush has manipulated so much information and been so secretrive, I don't find this to be out of his paranoid character...

As for Mrs. Clinton's trip. I think she also deserves credit. She went to a less stable environment with most of Afganistan being in control of warlords and Taliban and she went announced. Granted, the schedule was leaked but she still went. And she also went to Iraq but neither of these two visits seemed to appeal to Bush's yes-men in the media...

And the beat goes on...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SueB
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:19 PM

Here we have it, clear evidence that people who voluntarily join the military are credulous, gullible, naive. (I feel so sorry for the ones who were convinced that it's a good "career" opportunity.)

If this woman's biggest concern is mud on her pantlegs and staying away from windows, I wonder if she really gets out to see what's going on.

If she wants to believe her Commander In Chief is a great guy, that's fine - I'm sure it's better than believing that you're putting your life at risk to further the political and financial aspirations of a donkey's ass who sees you as expendable. How could you even live with yourself then?

What I really want to know is why all these really 'smart' guys who love Bush and are terrified of Senator Clinton can't comprehend even the simple rules of grammar and spelling that my nine year old has already mastered. Bushes visit? How many bushes? What kind? Were they burning?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:31 PM

Visit to Baghdad


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:32 PM

Speaking of stuff: What ever became of that gal who had the big deal made of her. Soldier, "rescued" from hospital by 'special' troops, etc. That's it, Jessica Lynch. For a while she was the news, Like, there she was, then there she was gone. Curious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM

Coming back from a weather patrol in the Atlantic, our chicken shit Captain took us way the hell out around a storm after a month away from home. Did we see him as our fearless leader? Hell no! we saw him as a pain in the ass who was extending our time at sea for no good reason.
That letter? "And the shit goes on."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:46 PM

I'd love to meet resident Bush so I could turn my back and shun the lying phoney bastard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:52 PM

Kendall, your Captain took a ship and an entire crew that he alone was responsible for, around a storm instead of sailing directly to port so you could make your liberty, and you are complaining? Well I'm glad that at least one of you was thinking...

...such is command...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM

I still think that it gave our troops a much needed morale boost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM

I don't believe any "letter" I see on the internet anymore. Unless there is some way to verify it { a friend of a friend sent it to me - really } I view it as fiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM

Thanks Claymore for sharing the first hand experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:59 PM

Trying to put aside my prejudices here:

Bush did the right thing by going to Iraq. He should do it more often.

He did the wrong thing by milking it for publicity; it cheapens a good deed when you take care to be well-paid for it.

Most, if not all, presidents would have acted the same, and it's still cheap.

Hilary certainly deserves credit for guts; whether you like her or not she's taking more risks than GWB.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:12 PM

And yes Sue ya got me, (though I did correct it in the first line of my thread to Bush's). Still for those who can only carp, I bet it made your day.

As for the letter, I pointed out it spoke for her and no one else. Yet when a couple of soldiers made some "this war sucks" type of comments a couple of months ago, the usual suspects were convinced this was a mass mutiny.

As for the personal comments about the mud, it was no different than some of the comments I made some thirty five years ago
; the mad, the sacred, the mundane. Such is life... even in a battle zone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:22 PM

SueB 09 Dec 03 - 01:19 PM -
"Here we have it, clear evidence that people who voluntarily join the military are credulous, gullible, naive. (I feel so sorry for the ones who were convinced that it's a good "career" opportunity.)"

That sentence of yours speaks volumes about you:

- Mean spirited
- Patronising
- Condescending
- Contemptable
- Despicable
- A fully paid up member of the "Peace at anyone else's expense brigade."

Being one of the latter, you will, in all probability, have never had to write letters home under such circumstances. Amazing some of the things you do put in your letters to lighten things up a bit in order to try and reassure those at home and lessen their burden of worrying about you. Naw, you wouldn't get it at all.

Tell you one thing SueB - if that letter had been bitching about hanging about for a Turkey dinner at 6:00 am in the morning, about what an asshole Bush is, about how f****d-up Iraq was, about how low the moral of the Army is.

I bet then your description, and opinion of her would be different, and the letter, of course, would totally believeable and absolute truth.

Where you describe them by saying, "credulous, gullible, naive". I would say, selfless (in that they have volunteered to serve), honourable (in that they have sworn an oath and are prepared to live up to it), honest, loyal, courageous.

Were I up against it personally in life, and things were running hard against me. Given a choice between the likes of yourself and one of those you so despise, I know damn well who I'd rather have to count on as a friend - it certainly would not be you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: DougR
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:01 PM

Aw Teribus. There you go letting wind out of SueB's sails.

Bobert: I have heard more criticizm of Bush not taking ENOUGH press with him. A presidential trip like that is news. Like it or not.

As to the Email posted by Claymore, I think it speaks well of the writer, real or not. As Teribus wrote, if the writer had written an Email bitching and moaning and complaining about how tough everybody had it over there, you "libs" would be forwarding it to everybody in your address books.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM

Teribus, I don't think I'd want to spend more than a few seconds in your company either, but if you have been in the service you know that it is no different than civilian life in terms of who you find there: drug dealers, rapists, cheats, thiefs, adulterers, whores, idiots, half-wits, etc. as well as many honorable people who have taken an oath and really understood what it was they were mouthing. there are some fine people in the military but this glamorizing or hero worshipping of them is ridiculous. brave or courageous people exhibit their bravery or courage when necessary, in the military or out, and the cowards do the same. No cowards in the military? bs. that's not to say there aren't scared individuals who will do the job as best they can, they are not cowards. but the service is not the haven for the best and the brightest. it's a steady job with some benefits, and sometimes you get to kill people, which appeals to some miscreants as well. not all selfless, honourable, honest, loyal, or courageous any more than the rest of us. Bush and his policies are an embarrasment and un American, the people on the ground enforcing the policy are being used and abused, though some willingly and knowingly.
this letter is probably a hoax, but if it's real so what? Bush is still a coward, an idiot, a half-wit, a thief, a cheat, a liar and unfit to hold the office he usurped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:06 PM

Check the link at Snopes that I posted above. According to them, it is a bona fide letter, although written by a man, not a woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:19 PM

You will have noticed, Kim C, that it is not the same letter. No surprise there, of course; when 600 soldiers were present at the dinner there must be uncounted letters in existence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:25 PM

So, is it a guy or a gal, or is it a gal with identity problems, or a cross-dressing GI, or . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:32 PM

Oops! You're right. I had already got a copy of the Snopes letter via e-mail, and when I saw this one, I didn't read very carefully, and of course don't remember it all word for word. I made a mistake to assume it was the same letter.

Anyhow ----------- if you want to read a real letter that was written by a real person, it's at the Snopes link. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: mg
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:17 PM

SueB you strike me as heartless. I voluntarily joined the military. I still don't like being near windows, especially at night, when I like to sleep with blankets over my head just in case. And I never left the US. The young lady oops soldier has every right to be concerned about windows. She has every right to her political opinions. Some day, I hope not in my lifetime, some of you will need the very people you so easily ridicule. They just might not be around any more to protect you. What then? Good luck. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: kendall
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:56 PM

Military people have always hated their leaders; especially the dickwits at the top, so, you will never convince me that most of the soldiers love Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:21 PM

There's a lot of denial going on over there on the part of the Americans. They couldn't live with their consciences otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:21 PM

Well said Mary!

GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM

Bill,

I am perfectly aware that the composition of those in the service reflects the society from which they come. But since the advent of "professional armed forces" and the ending of "conscripted armed forces" the composition is not the complete mirror image you portray. My opinion on this matter has only ever been influenced by my own experience and by those I have met.

Make no mistake I was making no attempt at "hero-worship" as you term it. My remarks were in direct response to what was written by SueB. You say, "this letter is probably a hoax, but if it's real so what?". So if it is real, in your eyes, it is perfectly alright to claim that it proves that the writer of that letter and her colleagues are all, what was it? ".. credulous, gullible, naive." That is not only complete and utter bullshit, as I pointed out, it was an extremely mean and contemptable thing to say.

"that's not to say there aren't scared individuals who will do the job as best they can, they are not cowards. but the service is not the haven for the best and the brightest." I don't know what recruitment criteria are over in the U.S. but I think that you get a shock if you tried to join up in the UK nowadays, and that has got nothing to do with unemployment, rate of unemployment in the UK is one of the lowest in Europe and has been that way for many years. Our armed forces now select their recruits.

One observation regarding those, "scared individuals who will do the job as best they can," That particular remark reminded me of a few lines of doggerel from something that I think was entitled "The Rules of the Navy"

"Now these are the rules of the Navy,
and many and varied they be
And men that are wise do obey them
Going down to their ships and the sea

The strength and the might of the cable
Depends on each link in the chain
Who knowest when thou be tested
So live that thou bearest the strain"

You are taught it, you live by it, you may well say that the service is not the haven for the best and the brightest. But I'll tell you what Mr. Kennedy - they'll bloody well do for me.

They may well not be any more selfless, honourable, honest, loyal, or courageous than the rest of us. Only real difference lies in the situation they find themselves in - they get more opportunity to prove it than the rest of us - and that, like Police Officers, Firefighters, Paramedics, Coast Guard, Life Boat Crews - they volunteered for it, and for that I will give them due credit.

"Bush and his policies are an embarrasment and un American, the people on the ground enforcing the policy are being used and abused, though some willingly and knowingly." - purely in your opinion - that does not make it a fact.

Likewise in your opinion:

Bush is still a coward - then prove it - evidence is that when faced with the worst atrocity committed on American soil he did not shirk his responsibility, he showed the resolve and courage to take some very tough decisions - I do not believe for a minute he took them lightly. If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

Bush is still a half-wit - If he is then he's been pretty successful. Well just think how much more rich and successful he would have been if he was a whole-wit.

Bush is still a thief - No charge for theft has ever been brought against him, and none are being sought.

Bush is still a cheat - At what golf? tiddley-winks? Poker?

Bush is still a liar - Wow, big deal! Any man that tells me straight to my face that they have never told a lie in their lives - I know I am looking at a liar. Are you still a liar Mr. Kennedy? Or on the lying thing are you referring to the last State of the Union Address?

Bush is unfit to hold the office he usurped - For the first part I couldn't disagree more from the perpective of someone living outside the U.S. For the second, he won the 2000 election, because Al Gore conceded it.

All the above Mr. Kennedy are your OPINIONS matched up to a few of my own. As for you not wanting to spend more than a few seconds in my company. That suits me just fine. Have a nice day!! Missing you already!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:41 PM

Yo, Bill:

Just ignore Teribus... The T-Bird is trying to lure you into one of his clever traps. "Prove it" is his main trap. You can have enought circumstantial evidence to convict Bush in any court in America but if you don't have the pictures or tapes, he won't believe it. He is the king of the loop holes. And don't let him shift the discussion away from the shortcomingds of Bush by moving his microsope over to some tiny little meanless detail.

But I agree with ya', Bill. Bush is a:

Thief: 2000 election

Liar: Oh, where does one start. Try the *Big Three* for starters (WMD, Nuclear weapons, Saddam ties to Al Qeada).

Crook: Where do you start, Part B. Harkin Energy? Remeber that? Cashed in ($700,000.00) just before announcing the corporations red ink.

Cheat: Went AWOL after soakin' up tens of thousands of tax payers money being trained as a pilot.

Half-wit: I don't agree here. He knows just what he's doing...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:47 PM

Remember "MASH"? Didn't that just read like Frank Burns, every word of it? Of course they wouldn't have invited Hawkeye along to a bash like that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: boglion
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:56 PM

How can anyone suggest that the trip was a PR exercise staged only for the media?

If that had been the case then surely Dubya would have announced the trip in advance and paraded through the streets of Baghdad to the happy cheering throngs of grateful Iraqis keen to show their gratitude. What wonderful propaganda that would have been.

To sneak in under a massive security blackout with only the minimum of media and sneak out again 2 hours and 23 minutes later shows how selfless the trip was.

There is no way the footage of this private trip to boost troop morale will be used during the election campaign!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:58 PM

It reads more like MASH's Col. Flagg than Burns. Remember that Flagg always "tried to keep himself as stupid as he could".

Hear, Hear, Bill Kennedy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,guest from the NW
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:00 PM

"I think it speaks well of the writer, real or not."
another example of the critical thinking abilities of the mudcat bushbuddies. real or not? sheesh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:10 PM

The young woman's reaction was perfectly understandable, Claymore, and it's interesting to read it. It doesn't change the fact that I am absolutely opposed to this war, but it's a fine example of young soldiers being encouraged by the visit of a commander...as has happened since time immemorial, whether those soldiers were Roman, Greek, Carthaginian, Trojan, Confederate, Union, British, German, Japanese, Russian, American, or whatever. Some won, some lost, they all gave it the very best they had...and for that alone, they deserve respect and remembrance.

Why be partisan about such matters? Soldiers are people trying to cope with a bad situation as best they can. They all have their own stories to tell. If one of those stories does not fit someone's political prejudices, that doesn't mean it's not worth listening to.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:12 PM

Bobert,

I am glad to see some consistancy in your posts in that you conceed that Bush Jnr is not a half wit (ever since I pointed out that both thee and hee had university degrees.)

Liar - On Iraq I think not.

Teribus

Bush Jnr has not been charged with any crime in his financial deallings - But then this is the same 'Legal' system that releases IRA thugs on the grounds that they would not face a fair trial in the Uk and that the IRA was/is an organization that treets prisoners fairly, and does not wage war on civilians. (We can't have it both ways)- Does O J Simpson ring a bell ???

Bush Jnr did not serve in Viet-Nam - That was HIS choice. Tho I concur his reactions after 9/11/01 were the same action I would expect any President to make.

The Florida vote was "bent" - It is no credit to Al Gore that he dropped legal action.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:35 PM

Lying is when you say something you believe is false. I suspect that there are a lot of people, including perhaps especially some politicians, who are incapable of believing that anything they say can possibly be false. Therefore such people are, in a sense, incapable of lying.

However trying to get people to believe that there was some connection between the Iraq regime and Al Qaida, in face of plenty of evidence that there was no such connection, would have been a lie for most people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:02 PM

DougR: I am one of those "libs" you speak of so disparagingly. I was a Canadian soldier (reserve) and I have tremendous respect for the military. My intelligence is above average--although there are people on this site who will disagree with that assessment--and I think your civilian leaders are dangerous, scary people. That's a personal view that I am aware differs from the one you hold. However, I don't try to use innuendo or slights to dismiss the opposition. I don't doubt that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. The question of where they are is a fair one from the "libs". And to speak to the rampant stupidity of your government, if they can't find any WMDs, for jaysus' sake, take some, hide them and THEN find them. That, sir, is not rocket science. Your views are fine by me--that is, I disagree with them but who am I to judge you--but remarks like you "libs" really bugs me, because it's that type of crap that was done by Joe Mc in the fifties, and it just don't cut it anymore. And, I don't think you're like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:14 PM

Sounds like a letter that would be written by any young soldier who had been given (and had earned) the opportunity to meet the President. It reminds me a lot of the reactions of a man in my unit in Vietnam who was called out under similar mysterious circumstances to attend a Bob Hope Show. Somebody...was it Kendall?...said that people in the military have always hated their leaders. I guess he was in a different military than I was, but in 27 years, active and reserve, I can't honestly say that I ever hated anyone, even when they were shooting at me. I still dislike Bush, what he stands for, and most of what he has done, but that doesn't mean that the office of the President doesn't deserve respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:43 PM

But what about the office of Resident?

Yeah, I have to agree with ya, Artbrooks, but then there's this naggin thing that goes on inside of me that says. "Bobert, he *wasn't* elected!" Yeah, that's the hard part here... And ya know, after many posts by various people over the last few years, no Bushite has stepped to the plate to say, "Yes, he was!"... Hmmmm. Part #7649.... I mean, Bush has brought the respect level of the Executive branch of government down to that of, ahhhhh, like TV wrestlin'....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:04 PM

it's that type of crap that was done by Joe Mc in the fifties... And, I don't think you're like that.

Check past posting history. I believe you'll find that, regrettably, he is- or at least presents himself- JUST like that.


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