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BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier

GUEST,Claymore 09 Dec 03 - 10:52 AM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 11:03 AM
Peter T. 09 Dec 03 - 11:07 AM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 11:13 AM
GUEST 09 Dec 03 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 Dec 03 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,pdc 09 Dec 03 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Teribus 09 Dec 03 - 11:32 AM
GUEST, Claymore 09 Dec 03 - 12:06 PM
Ebbie 09 Dec 03 - 12:25 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 12:40 PM
Peg 09 Dec 03 - 12:42 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 12:46 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM
Bobert 09 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM
SueB 09 Dec 03 - 01:19 PM
Kim C 09 Dec 03 - 01:31 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Kendall 09 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,kendall 09 Dec 03 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Claymore 09 Dec 03 - 01:52 PM
SINSULL 09 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM
Wesley S 09 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM
SINSULL 09 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 09 Dec 03 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Claymore 09 Dec 03 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Teribus 09 Dec 03 - 02:22 PM
DougR 09 Dec 03 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM
Kim C 09 Dec 03 - 03:06 PM
Ebbie 09 Dec 03 - 03:19 PM
Peace 09 Dec 03 - 03:25 PM
Kim C 09 Dec 03 - 03:32 PM
mg 09 Dec 03 - 04:17 PM
kendall 09 Dec 03 - 04:56 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Dec 03 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,Teribus 09 Dec 03 - 06:21 PM
Bobert 09 Dec 03 - 06:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 03 - 06:47 PM
boglion 09 Dec 03 - 06:56 PM
Greg F. 09 Dec 03 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,guest from the NW 09 Dec 03 - 07:00 PM
Little Hawk 09 Dec 03 - 07:10 PM
Gareth 09 Dec 03 - 07:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 03 - 07:35 PM
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artbrooks 09 Dec 03 - 08:14 PM
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Thomas the Rhymer 09 Dec 03 - 10:51 PM
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LadyJean 10 Dec 03 - 12:59 AM
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Greg F. 10 Dec 03 - 07:38 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Dec 03 - 07:58 AM
kendall 10 Dec 03 - 08:12 AM
Peg 10 Dec 03 - 08:32 AM
Kim C 10 Dec 03 - 08:36 AM
GUEST 10 Dec 03 - 09:39 AM
Bobert 10 Dec 03 - 10:02 AM
Peace 10 Dec 03 - 03:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Dec 03 - 04:32 PM
artbrooks 10 Dec 03 - 04:47 PM
Peace 10 Dec 03 - 05:08 PM
Bobert 10 Dec 03 - 06:02 PM
Amos 10 Dec 03 - 06:09 PM
Bobert 10 Dec 03 - 06:57 PM
mg 10 Dec 03 - 07:34 PM
GUEST,Teribus 10 Dec 03 - 07:35 PM
Peace 10 Dec 03 - 08:30 PM
Ebbie 10 Dec 03 - 08:58 PM
Peace 11 Dec 03 - 12:11 AM
LadyJean 11 Dec 03 - 12:39 AM
GUEST,Teribus 11 Dec 03 - 02:59 AM
Greg F. 11 Dec 03 - 08:55 AM
GUEST 11 Dec 03 - 09:03 AM
kendall 11 Dec 03 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Teribus 11 Dec 03 - 01:35 PM
Peace 11 Dec 03 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,pdc 11 Dec 03 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,pdc 11 Dec 03 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,pdc 11 Dec 03 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 11 Dec 03 - 03:54 PM
Amos 11 Dec 03 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,pdc 11 Dec 03 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Teribus 11 Dec 03 - 04:54 PM
Bobert 11 Dec 03 - 06:01 PM
Gareth 11 Dec 03 - 07:08 PM
kendall 11 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM
Bobert 11 Dec 03 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,guest from NW 12 Dec 03 - 04:39 AM
Bobert 12 Dec 03 - 06:55 PM
Gareth 12 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM
kendall 12 Dec 03 - 07:59 PM
Amos 12 Dec 03 - 08:12 PM
Bobert 12 Dec 03 - 10:38 PM
Peace 13 Dec 03 - 01:05 AM
GUEST,Frank 13 Dec 03 - 12:31 PM
kendall 13 Dec 03 - 01:31 PM
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GUEST,Frank 14 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM
Bobert 14 Dec 03 - 07:19 PM
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GUEST,Claymore 14 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM
GUEST 14 Dec 03 - 10:30 PM
artbrooks 14 Dec 03 - 11:38 PM
Teribus 15 Dec 03 - 03:59 AM
Teribus 15 Dec 03 - 05:12 AM
GUEST,Frank 15 Dec 03 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Frank 15 Dec 03 - 02:52 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 03 - 11:28 PM
Gareth 16 Dec 03 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,Teribus 16 Dec 03 - 08:39 AM
Bobert 16 Dec 03 - 08:50 AM
artbrooks 16 Dec 03 - 08:51 AM
Bobert 16 Dec 03 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Teribus 16 Dec 03 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Frank 16 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Teribus 17 Dec 03 - 07:02 AM
Bobert 17 Dec 03 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Teribus 17 Dec 03 - 10:47 AM
artbrooks 17 Dec 03 - 02:53 PM
SueB 17 Dec 03 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Teribus 18 Dec 03 - 03:00 AM
Peace 19 Dec 03 - 02:41 AM
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GUEST,pdc 19 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM
TIA 19 Dec 03 - 02:12 PM
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Subject: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:52 AM

Below is an email from a friend of mine, who forewarded it from one of her friends at UMD where she works. Her daughter is stationed in Iraq. I have removed the address information and a portion where she quotes Bush's speech, so that her words speak for themselves. I wrote her mother and said that she should send this to a newspaper or something, and that I'm prouder than hell to know her. ( I also completely regret everything I have ever said that was negative about women in the service).


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > To:
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 7:41 PM
> Subject: Subject: Bush at Baghdad
> > From: Simone L----n
> > ==========================
> > Yes, I was there.
> > It was totally insane. Let me start from the
> beginning in the hope that I
> > can catch my breath. Several days ago I received an
> All Hands email asking
> > anyone who wanted to go to a 'Thanksgiving Dinner
> with the Troops' to
> > respond with ID number and some other information.
> The email said there
> > would be a lottery drawing for the few seats
> available. This morning I
> > received notice that I had won (!!) and to go to a
> meeting point at 1500.
> > Anyway long story short, I arrived at the airport
> with about 15-20 others,
> > and was escorted into the huge chow hall where
> several hundred soldiers were
> > sitting. I found an empty spot at one of the tables
> and started chatting
> > with the men and women in uniform. They were shy at
> first, thinking I was
> > some kind of VIP (hardly!). We talked about home and
> what we are doing
> > here- and slowly they relaxed. And so did I. Time
> ticked on- and we were
> > there over an hour, waiting for something.anything.
> Bremer and Sanchez came
> > in- still nothing. What were we waiting for, I
> wondered? The guys were
> > more patient than I- just shrugging their shoulders
> and looking more and
> > more unimpressed.
> >
> > After a while, an American General stood up and
> introduced General Sanchez
> > and Ambassador Bremer. They said they wanted to read
> the President's
> > Thanksgiving declaration, but wanted the most senior
> person there to deliver
> > it. Who is more senior than those two, we wondered
> aloud..
> >
> > Then pandemonium. Literally- screaming, jumping and
> clapping. Who is it, I
> > asked- The President!! Then I, too lept up from my
> seat, not believing my
> > ears. There he was- President Bush- standing on the
> podium-smiling and
> > fighting back tears. It was an extremely emotional
> moment for everyone
> > there.
> >
> > His speech was awesome- got everyone fired up and
> motivated when people had
> > been vaguely depressed before.
> >
> > > >
> > There were a couple of standing ovations- again, very
> emotional and deeply
> > felt by all. After he finished his remarks, the
> President stepped into the
> > crowd, and greeted people for over an hour. Actually
> more like two hours.
> > He shook everyone's hand- and made a point of it. He
> would see someone
> > getting pushed aside and say 'Hey Sanchez, I'm headed
> your way.' And the
> > guys loved him. Adored him. Because they could see
> he was their guy.
> >
> > He shook my hand, too! That was pretty exciting. I
> was with another woman
> > who was a lot more cool about the whole thing than I
> was and she introduced
> > me to him. Eyes met, hands shook and he moved on.
> Wow! I'll tell you-
> > meeting the President of the United States is
> THRILLING. Especially when
> > you are in Baghdad and totally not expecting it.
> >
> > One of the other CPA people there was retired General
> Hugh Tant III. He is
> > a legend to a lot of the guys in the 82nd Airborne,
> and served in Gulf War
> > I. Now he is over here, running the currency
> exchange operation. Needless
> > to say, great guy. When we found out we were both
> selected, he asked me to
> > be his 'date.' Anyway by the time the President
> reached our table, General
> > Tant was misty-eyed. If you can call Niagara Falls
> misty. He reached into
> > his pocket and took out a coin. He told the
> President: 'I ate Thanksgiving
> > dinner with your father in Kuwait 10 years ago right
> before we jumped, and I
> > gave him one of these. Now I want you to have this
> one.' The President
> > grabbed him and gave him a huge bear hug- flashbulbs
> popped. So if you see
> > a picture of the President hugging some random old
> guy, that's General Tant.
> > Have to find out more about the coin.there has to be
> more of a story there..
> >
> > Condi Rice and Andy Card were there, too. I met them
> both- Condi Rice asked
> > if we were really surprised- she was getting a kick
> out of it. We all said
> > 'Absolutely!' Andy Card repeated my name and said it
> was nice to meet me.
> > Forgive me, foreign friends who may not know these
> names- just know that it
> > really means a lot for these guys to have their
> comander in chief come out
> > and physically support them. His coming here was a
> hugely important thing
> > for our troops- all of them- whether or not they were
> in the chow hall at
> > the airport.
> >
> > Anyway after the hundreds of handshakes and
> photographs (my battery died!!!!
> > Can you BELIEVE IT??!!!), he was off. He said a
> quick goodbye and Happy
> > Thanksgiving and then no-one could leave the airport
> for an hour until Air
> > Force One was well on its way. I am still glowing.
> >
> > In other news, winter has officially arrived here.
> The rain has started and
> > all the sand and dust has turned to mud. My pants
> are perpetually dirty-
> > splattered with mud- and my boots are looking very
> rough indeed! War is
> > hell.
> >
> > In the dining hall in the CPA palace, one of the
> kitchen staff painted a
> > huge mural of the Twin Towers.
> >
> > I am pretty much used to the attacks at this point-
> and not really scared of
> > them anymore- at least the way I used to be. I
> definitely get away from
> > windows, etc. but it seems like the attacks on the
> green zone at least are
> > launched just for the sake of media attention rather
> than to actually damage
> > anything or anyone. I will of course continue to be
> vigilant and safe, and
> > I don't want to tempt fate by scoffing too much.
> >
> > Hillary Clinton is coming here tomorrow. For her
> sake I hope I don't see
> > her. I might do something crazy like spit in her
> direction. Actually,
> > General Tant, right before the President came onto
> the podium, had a funny
> > line. When Bremer said 'someone more senior,' Tant
> turned to me and
> > commented: 'If Hillary Clinton shows up I am
> leaving.' I heard that tonight
> > in Afghanistan, where she is making a stop, the
> troops were more interested
> > in the food than her. Go figure.
> >
> > Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I am so thankful for all
> of you. Love ------
> >
> >
>> >
> >
>


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:03 AM

what a load of crap


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:07 AM

And why is she proposing to spit on Hilary Clinton? Hilary is a hawkette.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:13 AM

a lot of people percieve Hilary as a liar and an oppurtunist,


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:15 AM

Thanks to "Guest" & Peter T for your heartfelt opinions.

More especially, thanks to "Claymore" for sharing this with us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:17 AM

perception is one thing, that's your opinion on Hillary, but as to the facts, 'liar and opportunist' is the most concise and apt description of George W. Bush I've ever seen


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:25 AM

I can easily visualize GWB being friendly, happy, hugging everyone. That's the photo-op thing -- the only part of his entire presidency that he does well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:32 AM

Thanks for the mail, Claymore. The lassie's description certainly matched the reaction of those present as seen on the BBC coverage of the event.

She definitely had Thanksgiving Dinner then and not papier-mache??

She also confirms that she was not rushed there to have her Thanksgiving Dinner instead of breakfast.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST, Claymore
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:06 PM

Teribus,
Actually the paper-mache thing explains what I think they served me in the 'Nam, but back then it was called turkey loaf. And to think that some where else on that day, there was a real turkey, with all the fixings, sitting on a counter...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:25 PM

In what way is her reaction meaningful? Does that mean that she/they understand and approve the administration's actions? Does it mean that they have a clue as to what will happen next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:40 PM

Troops like to see the people who sent them. (I'm reminded of a line from a Lt. Col. Sumner. A civilian approached him at an airport and asked him what he was doing in Vietnam. He replied, "I thought you knew; you sent me!") The C-in-C is the ultimate representative of both the military and the public. It's a function that goes with the presidency. I think it was gutsy he went.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peg
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:42 PM

Gag me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:46 PM

With a spoon?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

Sorry, Peg, that was uncalled for on my part. However, the kid went where she was told. Soldiers do that, and there but for the grace of G-d . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

With a pretzel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM

Well, there is absolutely no doubt about the partisan nature of the author of this email... Died in the wool Republican... Can't say anything about anything without draggin' a Clinton in to bash. Normal!

This person is just one person who has biases and prejudices of, ahhhh... one danged person and *not* those of everyone servin' in Iraq.

As for the trip, I do give credit to Bush for going but I deduct points for dragging the media with him when those in the media were not allowed to talks with any of the troops?!?!?... But given the way that Bush has manipulated so much information and been so secretrive, I don't find this to be out of his paranoid character...

As for Mrs. Clinton's trip. I think she also deserves credit. She went to a less stable environment with most of Afganistan being in control of warlords and Taliban and she went announced. Granted, the schedule was leaked but she still went. And she also went to Iraq but neither of these two visits seemed to appeal to Bush's yes-men in the media...

And the beat goes on...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SueB
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:19 PM

Here we have it, clear evidence that people who voluntarily join the military are credulous, gullible, naive. (I feel so sorry for the ones who were convinced that it's a good "career" opportunity.)

If this woman's biggest concern is mud on her pantlegs and staying away from windows, I wonder if she really gets out to see what's going on.

If she wants to believe her Commander In Chief is a great guy, that's fine - I'm sure it's better than believing that you're putting your life at risk to further the political and financial aspirations of a donkey's ass who sees you as expendable. How could you even live with yourself then?

What I really want to know is why all these really 'smart' guys who love Bush and are terrified of Senator Clinton can't comprehend even the simple rules of grammar and spelling that my nine year old has already mastered. Bushes visit? How many bushes? What kind? Were they burning?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:31 PM

Visit to Baghdad


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:32 PM

Speaking of stuff: What ever became of that gal who had the big deal made of her. Soldier, "rescued" from hospital by 'special' troops, etc. That's it, Jessica Lynch. For a while she was the news, Like, there she was, then there she was gone. Curious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM

Coming back from a weather patrol in the Atlantic, our chicken shit Captain took us way the hell out around a storm after a month away from home. Did we see him as our fearless leader? Hell no! we saw him as a pain in the ass who was extending our time at sea for no good reason.
That letter? "And the shit goes on."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:46 PM

I'd love to meet resident Bush so I could turn my back and shun the lying phoney bastard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:52 PM

Kendall, your Captain took a ship and an entire crew that he alone was responsible for, around a storm instead of sailing directly to port so you could make your liberty, and you are complaining? Well I'm glad that at least one of you was thinking...

...such is command...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM

I still think that it gave our troops a much needed morale boost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM

I don't believe any "letter" I see on the internet anymore. Unless there is some way to verify it { a friend of a friend sent it to me - really } I view it as fiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM

Thanks Claymore for sharing the first hand experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:59 PM

Trying to put aside my prejudices here:

Bush did the right thing by going to Iraq. He should do it more often.

He did the wrong thing by milking it for publicity; it cheapens a good deed when you take care to be well-paid for it.

Most, if not all, presidents would have acted the same, and it's still cheap.

Hilary certainly deserves credit for guts; whether you like her or not she's taking more risks than GWB.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:12 PM

And yes Sue ya got me, (though I did correct it in the first line of my thread to Bush's). Still for those who can only carp, I bet it made your day.

As for the letter, I pointed out it spoke for her and no one else. Yet when a couple of soldiers made some "this war sucks" type of comments a couple of months ago, the usual suspects were convinced this was a mass mutiny.

As for the personal comments about the mud, it was no different than some of the comments I made some thirty five years ago
; the mad, the sacred, the mundane. Such is life... even in a battle zone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:22 PM

SueB 09 Dec 03 - 01:19 PM -
"Here we have it, clear evidence that people who voluntarily join the military are credulous, gullible, naive. (I feel so sorry for the ones who were convinced that it's a good "career" opportunity.)"

That sentence of yours speaks volumes about you:

- Mean spirited
- Patronising
- Condescending
- Contemptable
- Despicable
- A fully paid up member of the "Peace at anyone else's expense brigade."

Being one of the latter, you will, in all probability, have never had to write letters home under such circumstances. Amazing some of the things you do put in your letters to lighten things up a bit in order to try and reassure those at home and lessen their burden of worrying about you. Naw, you wouldn't get it at all.

Tell you one thing SueB - if that letter had been bitching about hanging about for a Turkey dinner at 6:00 am in the morning, about what an asshole Bush is, about how f****d-up Iraq was, about how low the moral of the Army is.

I bet then your description, and opinion of her would be different, and the letter, of course, would totally believeable and absolute truth.

Where you describe them by saying, "credulous, gullible, naive". I would say, selfless (in that they have volunteered to serve), honourable (in that they have sworn an oath and are prepared to live up to it), honest, loyal, courageous.

Were I up against it personally in life, and things were running hard against me. Given a choice between the likes of yourself and one of those you so despise, I know damn well who I'd rather have to count on as a friend - it certainly would not be you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: DougR
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:01 PM

Aw Teribus. There you go letting wind out of SueB's sails.

Bobert: I have heard more criticizm of Bush not taking ENOUGH press with him. A presidential trip like that is news. Like it or not.

As to the Email posted by Claymore, I think it speaks well of the writer, real or not. As Teribus wrote, if the writer had written an Email bitching and moaning and complaining about how tough everybody had it over there, you "libs" would be forwarding it to everybody in your address books.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM

Teribus, I don't think I'd want to spend more than a few seconds in your company either, but if you have been in the service you know that it is no different than civilian life in terms of who you find there: drug dealers, rapists, cheats, thiefs, adulterers, whores, idiots, half-wits, etc. as well as many honorable people who have taken an oath and really understood what it was they were mouthing. there are some fine people in the military but this glamorizing or hero worshipping of them is ridiculous. brave or courageous people exhibit their bravery or courage when necessary, in the military or out, and the cowards do the same. No cowards in the military? bs. that's not to say there aren't scared individuals who will do the job as best they can, they are not cowards. but the service is not the haven for the best and the brightest. it's a steady job with some benefits, and sometimes you get to kill people, which appeals to some miscreants as well. not all selfless, honourable, honest, loyal, or courageous any more than the rest of us. Bush and his policies are an embarrasment and un American, the people on the ground enforcing the policy are being used and abused, though some willingly and knowingly.
this letter is probably a hoax, but if it's real so what? Bush is still a coward, an idiot, a half-wit, a thief, a cheat, a liar and unfit to hold the office he usurped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:06 PM

Check the link at Snopes that I posted above. According to them, it is a bona fide letter, although written by a man, not a woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:19 PM

You will have noticed, Kim C, that it is not the same letter. No surprise there, of course; when 600 soldiers were present at the dinner there must be uncounted letters in existence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:25 PM

So, is it a guy or a gal, or is it a gal with identity problems, or a cross-dressing GI, or . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:32 PM

Oops! You're right. I had already got a copy of the Snopes letter via e-mail, and when I saw this one, I didn't read very carefully, and of course don't remember it all word for word. I made a mistake to assume it was the same letter.

Anyhow ----------- if you want to read a real letter that was written by a real person, it's at the Snopes link. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: mg
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:17 PM

SueB you strike me as heartless. I voluntarily joined the military. I still don't like being near windows, especially at night, when I like to sleep with blankets over my head just in case. And I never left the US. The young lady oops soldier has every right to be concerned about windows. She has every right to her political opinions. Some day, I hope not in my lifetime, some of you will need the very people you so easily ridicule. They just might not be around any more to protect you. What then? Good luck. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: kendall
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:56 PM

Military people have always hated their leaders; especially the dickwits at the top, so, you will never convince me that most of the soldiers love Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:21 PM

There's a lot of denial going on over there on the part of the Americans. They couldn't live with their consciences otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:21 PM

Well said Mary!

GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM

Bill,

I am perfectly aware that the composition of those in the service reflects the society from which they come. But since the advent of "professional armed forces" and the ending of "conscripted armed forces" the composition is not the complete mirror image you portray. My opinion on this matter has only ever been influenced by my own experience and by those I have met.

Make no mistake I was making no attempt at "hero-worship" as you term it. My remarks were in direct response to what was written by SueB. You say, "this letter is probably a hoax, but if it's real so what?". So if it is real, in your eyes, it is perfectly alright to claim that it proves that the writer of that letter and her colleagues are all, what was it? ".. credulous, gullible, naive." That is not only complete and utter bullshit, as I pointed out, it was an extremely mean and contemptable thing to say.

"that's not to say there aren't scared individuals who will do the job as best they can, they are not cowards. but the service is not the haven for the best and the brightest." I don't know what recruitment criteria are over in the U.S. but I think that you get a shock if you tried to join up in the UK nowadays, and that has got nothing to do with unemployment, rate of unemployment in the UK is one of the lowest in Europe and has been that way for many years. Our armed forces now select their recruits.

One observation regarding those, "scared individuals who will do the job as best they can," That particular remark reminded me of a few lines of doggerel from something that I think was entitled "The Rules of the Navy"

"Now these are the rules of the Navy,
and many and varied they be
And men that are wise do obey them
Going down to their ships and the sea

The strength and the might of the cable
Depends on each link in the chain
Who knowest when thou be tested
So live that thou bearest the strain"

You are taught it, you live by it, you may well say that the service is not the haven for the best and the brightest. But I'll tell you what Mr. Kennedy - they'll bloody well do for me.

They may well not be any more selfless, honourable, honest, loyal, or courageous than the rest of us. Only real difference lies in the situation they find themselves in - they get more opportunity to prove it than the rest of us - and that, like Police Officers, Firefighters, Paramedics, Coast Guard, Life Boat Crews - they volunteered for it, and for that I will give them due credit.

"Bush and his policies are an embarrasment and un American, the people on the ground enforcing the policy are being used and abused, though some willingly and knowingly." - purely in your opinion - that does not make it a fact.

Likewise in your opinion:

Bush is still a coward - then prove it - evidence is that when faced with the worst atrocity committed on American soil he did not shirk his responsibility, he showed the resolve and courage to take some very tough decisions - I do not believe for a minute he took them lightly. If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

Bush is still a half-wit - If he is then he's been pretty successful. Well just think how much more rich and successful he would have been if he was a whole-wit.

Bush is still a thief - No charge for theft has ever been brought against him, and none are being sought.

Bush is still a cheat - At what golf? tiddley-winks? Poker?

Bush is still a liar - Wow, big deal! Any man that tells me straight to my face that they have never told a lie in their lives - I know I am looking at a liar. Are you still a liar Mr. Kennedy? Or on the lying thing are you referring to the last State of the Union Address?

Bush is unfit to hold the office he usurped - For the first part I couldn't disagree more from the perpective of someone living outside the U.S. For the second, he won the 2000 election, because Al Gore conceded it.

All the above Mr. Kennedy are your OPINIONS matched up to a few of my own. As for you not wanting to spend more than a few seconds in my company. That suits me just fine. Have a nice day!! Missing you already!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:41 PM

Yo, Bill:

Just ignore Teribus... The T-Bird is trying to lure you into one of his clever traps. "Prove it" is his main trap. You can have enought circumstantial evidence to convict Bush in any court in America but if you don't have the pictures or tapes, he won't believe it. He is the king of the loop holes. And don't let him shift the discussion away from the shortcomingds of Bush by moving his microsope over to some tiny little meanless detail.

But I agree with ya', Bill. Bush is a:

Thief: 2000 election

Liar: Oh, where does one start. Try the *Big Three* for starters (WMD, Nuclear weapons, Saddam ties to Al Qeada).

Crook: Where do you start, Part B. Harkin Energy? Remeber that? Cashed in ($700,000.00) just before announcing the corporations red ink.

Cheat: Went AWOL after soakin' up tens of thousands of tax payers money being trained as a pilot.

Half-wit: I don't agree here. He knows just what he's doing...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:47 PM

Remember "MASH"? Didn't that just read like Frank Burns, every word of it? Of course they wouldn't have invited Hawkeye along to a bash like that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: boglion
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:56 PM

How can anyone suggest that the trip was a PR exercise staged only for the media?

If that had been the case then surely Dubya would have announced the trip in advance and paraded through the streets of Baghdad to the happy cheering throngs of grateful Iraqis keen to show their gratitude. What wonderful propaganda that would have been.

To sneak in under a massive security blackout with only the minimum of media and sneak out again 2 hours and 23 minutes later shows how selfless the trip was.

There is no way the footage of this private trip to boost troop morale will be used during the election campaign!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:58 PM

It reads more like MASH's Col. Flagg than Burns. Remember that Flagg always "tried to keep himself as stupid as he could".

Hear, Hear, Bill Kennedy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,guest from the NW
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:00 PM

"I think it speaks well of the writer, real or not."
another example of the critical thinking abilities of the mudcat bushbuddies. real or not? sheesh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:10 PM

The young woman's reaction was perfectly understandable, Claymore, and it's interesting to read it. It doesn't change the fact that I am absolutely opposed to this war, but it's a fine example of young soldiers being encouraged by the visit of a commander...as has happened since time immemorial, whether those soldiers were Roman, Greek, Carthaginian, Trojan, Confederate, Union, British, German, Japanese, Russian, American, or whatever. Some won, some lost, they all gave it the very best they had...and for that alone, they deserve respect and remembrance.

Why be partisan about such matters? Soldiers are people trying to cope with a bad situation as best they can. They all have their own stories to tell. If one of those stories does not fit someone's political prejudices, that doesn't mean it's not worth listening to.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:12 PM

Bobert,

I am glad to see some consistancy in your posts in that you conceed that Bush Jnr is not a half wit (ever since I pointed out that both thee and hee had university degrees.)

Liar - On Iraq I think not.

Teribus

Bush Jnr has not been charged with any crime in his financial deallings - But then this is the same 'Legal' system that releases IRA thugs on the grounds that they would not face a fair trial in the Uk and that the IRA was/is an organization that treets prisoners fairly, and does not wage war on civilians. (We can't have it both ways)- Does O J Simpson ring a bell ???

Bush Jnr did not serve in Viet-Nam - That was HIS choice. Tho I concur his reactions after 9/11/01 were the same action I would expect any President to make.

The Florida vote was "bent" - It is no credit to Al Gore that he dropped legal action.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:35 PM

Lying is when you say something you believe is false. I suspect that there are a lot of people, including perhaps especially some politicians, who are incapable of believing that anything they say can possibly be false. Therefore such people are, in a sense, incapable of lying.

However trying to get people to believe that there was some connection between the Iraq regime and Al Qaida, in face of plenty of evidence that there was no such connection, would have been a lie for most people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:02 PM

DougR: I am one of those "libs" you speak of so disparagingly. I was a Canadian soldier (reserve) and I have tremendous respect for the military. My intelligence is above average--although there are people on this site who will disagree with that assessment--and I think your civilian leaders are dangerous, scary people. That's a personal view that I am aware differs from the one you hold. However, I don't try to use innuendo or slights to dismiss the opposition. I don't doubt that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. The question of where they are is a fair one from the "libs". And to speak to the rampant stupidity of your government, if they can't find any WMDs, for jaysus' sake, take some, hide them and THEN find them. That, sir, is not rocket science. Your views are fine by me--that is, I disagree with them but who am I to judge you--but remarks like you "libs" really bugs me, because it's that type of crap that was done by Joe Mc in the fifties, and it just don't cut it anymore. And, I don't think you're like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:14 PM

Sounds like a letter that would be written by any young soldier who had been given (and had earned) the opportunity to meet the President. It reminds me a lot of the reactions of a man in my unit in Vietnam who was called out under similar mysterious circumstances to attend a Bob Hope Show. Somebody...was it Kendall?...said that people in the military have always hated their leaders. I guess he was in a different military than I was, but in 27 years, active and reserve, I can't honestly say that I ever hated anyone, even when they were shooting at me. I still dislike Bush, what he stands for, and most of what he has done, but that doesn't mean that the office of the President doesn't deserve respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:43 PM

But what about the office of Resident?

Yeah, I have to agree with ya, Artbrooks, but then there's this naggin thing that goes on inside of me that says. "Bobert, he *wasn't* elected!" Yeah, that's the hard part here... And ya know, after many posts by various people over the last few years, no Bushite has stepped to the plate to say, "Yes, he was!"... Hmmmm. Part #7649.... I mean, Bush has brought the respect level of the Executive branch of government down to that of, ahhhhh, like TV wrestlin'....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:04 PM

it's that type of crap that was done by Joe Mc in the fifties... And, I don't think you're like that.

Check past posting history. I believe you'll find that, regrettably, he is- or at least presents himself- JUST like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SueB
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:36 PM

I think I must have pushed somebody's buttons. I don't think I've ever been called dethpicable before. But I am familiar with people who resort to the clever strategem of personal attacks and name calling when they're losing an argument. You might want to wipe the spittle off your chin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:51 PM

Thanks Claymore... it really puts a human face on the issue for me. Yeah, plenty of denial... like there isn't any across these 50 states right now... Seems the President made a effort, and it was appreciated... I wish he would make some more... I could respect him a lot more if he had a bit more of the 'heroic' in him... Actually... make that 'a lot' more will you? Now Napoleon was a good example... ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peg
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:21 PM

Does no one see how obscene it is for Bush to show up in military gear when he himself is a deserter???

Talk about hypocritical.

this was nothing but a photo-op, and I am sure the sales numbers on the action figures just went up again.

disgusting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Amos
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:42 PM

Peg -- it was absolutely a photo op. The second time he has posed in fighting-person garb and gotten away with it. He can, of course, because of his current duties as CiC.
To be fair though, it was also uplifting to the morale of the troops and little wonder; and it was also fairly ballsy, although Hillary was twice so, lacking the cover and air support. This running around wearing various military costumes like John Wayne in a busy year does not reflect well on his chracter, but it shows that he is always thinking of the camera.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: LadyJean
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:59 AM

I read that Bush's "Thanksgiving Dinner" was a breakfast served at 7:00 in the morning, and the food he was photgraphed holding was a prop, not real food.
It's possible that this was an astroturf letter. (Astroturf as opposed to grass roots.) You may remember several soldiers sent letters to their hometown papers that had been dictated by their commanding officers. Snopes said it was a real email, from a real soldier. They didn't say if the story was true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 01:28 AM

Teribus, I'm shocked and awed! You appear to be a raving lunatic!

With that sort of slobber-mouthed ranting (about SueB), you're not doing your master any favors.

I say, keep it up! (Pay attention, folks. This is the wolf beneath the bush, er, sheep's clothing.)

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 01:40 AM

Peg... I'm not touting his GI Joe attire, I find the interchangable military outfits he dons for these occasions to be a laughing stock... I am merely suggesting that if it is war he wants, he ought to be a wee bit less of an 'armchair CiC'... and get in there and get involved.

BTW... How would you deal with having been sent over to Iraq? I believe that the soldiers need all the help they can get, because they are in harm's way... and short of bringing them home, I'm of the opinion that they should be given the confidence they deserve... as decent people. ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:24 AM

Hi there Bobert,

A few points:

What wonderful enlightenment you subscribe to. Anyone can make any claim they like, irrespective of how ludicrous, without being bothered by that most minor of irritations - burden of proof to substantiate what they have said.

On convictions Bobert - glad to see you actually admit to being a proponent of the validity of purely "circumstantial evidence". A case based on such evidence in the UK would never hold water and would not even be brought to court. But as stated above Bobert you are no great believer in substatiation and proof.

Since leaving the Navy Bobert, one thing above all else has stood me in good stead. It was one thing that was dinned into us throughout our training and throughout our active service time as it applied to everything we did - Attention to detail.

I know that tiny, little, meaningless detail and you are complete and utter strangers Bobert, mainly because, more often than not they contradict the thrust of whatever your latest raving happens to be. You also keep referring to my microscopic view. Well Bobert that "big picture" that you are always so keen on gazing at happens to be made up from lots of microscopic views, all those tiny, little, meaningless details. You don't bother with them, so in effect you look at your "big picture" not openly and clearly in focus, you look at it through bias tinted lenses, whose transparency is further obscured through your totally unfounded belief that Bobert has got it all right and the rest of the world is all wrong.

On Bush
Thief: No proof offer purely opinion - no past form, no pending prosecution.

Liar: No proof offered only opinion - only depending upon how obtuse you want to be in understanding what was being said on the matter being addressed.

Crook: No proof offered only opinion - On Harkin Energy, he cashed in $700,000, after predicting that the Company was getting a little out of its depth. He disagreed with the decision to pursue the offshore drilling contract in the middle east and pulled out of the company. Had he left is money in the company and had waited for another 9 to 12 months he would have made double that amount. Minor details Bobert.

Cheat: No proof offered only opinion - No charge exists, or record of disciplinary action having been taken, no recorded complaints, did qualify as "combat capable" in Delta Dagger, single-seat, all-weather, super-sonic interceptor, which is what he joined to do, US tax payers money was spent to train a pilot and that is what the US tax payer got.

Half-wit: I don't agree here. He knows just what he's doing... I also believe he knows what he is doing and not doing a bad job of it at all.

International terror -
He has got the entire world focused on this. People are now more watchful than ever before. International and inter-departmental co-operation has never been better.

US Economy -
NYSE September 2001 7,700 something points, yesterday it briefly bounced through the 10,000 barrier to fall back marginally to just under the 10,000 mark. That is an increase of roughly 23%. Growth figures for the US Economy 8.4% - that is four times the rate of Europe and the far east. US interst rates at the lowest level they have ever been and likely to remain so for some time to come. Exchange rate at present means that US consumers will find foreign imports more expensive than domestically produced goods.

Bobert you obviously have some very dearly held and sincere beliefs. Only in posting about them do you diminish them with irrational, illogical, poorly researched "Magpie-Chatter"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SueB
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:34 AM

Please, Teribus, take a deep breath or two.
Why don't you tell us a little about your time in the Navy? Where were you stationed, and what did you do, and how long were you in for, and all that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:38 AM

I am merely suggesting that if it is war he wants, he ought to be a wee bit less of an 'armchair CiC'... and get in there and get involved.

EXCELLENT idea- give him a rifle, ship him right over there
and put him at a checkpoint.Expose him to some REAL danger and watch him crap his pants,like the sorry chickenhawk he is. Ditto the rest of his junta that never served for one minute in the military.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:58 AM

Minutes of 'Top Secret' Pentagon meeting

O.k. so we need to boost the President's popularity, and keep the public behind us in Iraq, what can we do?

How about we send him out there to fight?

Don't be stupid, he'd never agree!

A big meeting with all the commanders there, maybe for Thanksgiving?

That's better, but we want to catch the common touch.

O.k. a big Thanksgiving dinner in Iraq, attended by the big boys and other ranks, maybe by length of service, or a raffle?

Great, start organising it. Say about 500 guests drawn by lot from the lower ranks. But keep it quiet.

Shall I book CNN for the coverage? They can keep quiet until it's happened.

Better not. With CNN there everyone will think it's propaganda.

But it is!

Yes, but we don't want the public to know that. Some of them are getting cynical about the news releases we 'allow'.

O.k. I'll organise it, but keep it quiet. Can I tell the President?

(Pause) Yes, but tell him to keep it secret as well. And tell him to dust off one of his CinC uniforms ready for the occasion.

Some weeks later, after Thanksgiving:

Well, the Thanksgiving dinner went off fine, but I don't see the propaganda value, press coverage was sporadic, and it didn't make a big splash.

That's to be expected, did you get the file I requested?

Yes, "Censored mail report for serving troops in Iraq", here it is.

Good, now just find a glowing report of the dinner, either in writing or email, that makes the dinner look like the high point of a soldiers service life.....

Later
O.k. we're down to half a dozen, all suitably glowing and also naive. Any of them sent to a small community?

Why a small community?

Everyone knows everyone else's business, and that tends to keep them honest. Scams, sorry, News always comes better from honest people!

There's an email here going to a soldier's parents in Smalltown Idaho.

That's just what we need. (Walks to phone) "Hello is that the Smalltown Tribune? ... I was just checking, is it true Jenny Jones went to that Thanksgiving dinner with the President? .... Oh, you don't know, O.k. I'll check with her folks.. Thanks"

Now what?

We sit back and allow the press to do their work ferreting out the original of that email. I have great trust in the efficiency and impartiality of the press. They'll do our job for us.



CHEERS Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: kendall
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:12 AM

Bush was convicted of OUI right here in Maine where daddy couldn't get his crime covered up. Now, Teribus, argue with that.
Clinton wasn't convicted of anything either, but we all know what he did.(White water)
If every crime that was ever committed by those low lifes in Washington, we would go broke building jails.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peg
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:32 AM

I agree, Thomas, many of these military personnel may have been very cheered to see him there, and I guess it's better then his not gong at all, but to have it be all about a big publicity stunt grates on me, especially since the 'secrecy" and timing make it look like he was merely trying to upstage Hilary Clinton...

If you were asking how would I personally deal with being sent to Iraq,itis hard for me to imagine this since there is no draft anymore, and there is no way I would go in a military capacity because I would register as a conscientious objector. But, let's say civilians were forced to go and serve in non-combat functions. I would probably want to work in communications or in a journalistic capacity, or maybe as a radio announcer, something to help boost morale,or in some therapeutic capacity (yoga instructor?), or in away that helped rebuild thecities being destroyed.
But I find the majority of "career" military people I have met in recent years are not people I tend to have a lot in common with, even less so those who signed up in droves after 9-11. Talk about a jingoistic over-reaction. Now a lot of these pie-eyed idealistic young people are stuck in Iraq risking their lives so our administration can keep an eye on their oil investments. This does not strike me as noble or even patriotic, but naive and pathetic. So it would be a challenge for me to find a way to fit in. I do not believe people have a responsibility, in peace time, to die for their country in some arbitrary war with a region that does not threaten them directly.

when that


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:36 AM

Even a broken clock is right two times a day. Why is it so hard to believe that the President might have actually done something nice? Even Al Capone was nice to the children in his neighborhood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:39 AM

Al Capone never claimed to be something he wasn't, and he may have been a saint in comparison to dubya


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 10:02 AM

Yo, T-Bird:

There you go again trying to portray this ol' hillbilly as some kind of blind idealist who just invents stuff. Well, we both know that isn't accurate. If you want to be a pixil then that' your business. I'd rather be lookin' at the picture, thatnk you very much.

Now, as fir why there isn't "proof" that Bush is a liar, a thief and a crook all one has to do is look at who is in charge. We have the fox guarding the hen house and these foxes ain't gonna let no investigations take place that might allow the proof to, ahhh, like surface. Heck, a plane crashes off the New England coast line and we send divers down to retrieve evry danged piece of it and reassemble it in a hanger at a cost of millions of dollars. But let 19 Suadis hyjack 4 planes and use them as weapons against us and, other than invading two countries and running the Bill of Rights thru the shreader, we make little effort to look into why this could have happened, who knew what... and when? Go figure. Had Clinton been president, the Repubs would had an investigation that makes the Ken Starr circus look like a kids puppet show...

Now as fir the theft of the elction, same thing. The proof is there but the Repubs control Congress so you can bet the farm that there won't be an investigation on that one either. But you had a company with close ties to the Republican Party hired by the Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris given the power to remove felons from the voting rolls. Problem is that most of the folks who were removed weren't felon and most were black, who voted predominently Democratic in Florida in 2000. If you'd like the details, since you're a detail kinda guy, I'd be more than happy to share my copy of Greg Palist's book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy". He's got photcopies of documents and interviews with folks who worked inside the governemnt. If Ken Starr had this one to investigate, after reading the book, I'm surew you'd agree that it would be a slam dunk and both Bush's would be out of office along with Katherine Harris.

Now, as fir the lies. If the Congress was contolled by Democrats, there would be a massive investigation of the *Big Three* (WMD, Mushroom clouds and Saddam's link to Al Qaeda. But what we're seeing is sand-bagging and an attempt to run out the clock on this one. George Tenent has said that his folks told Bush not to play the *Nuke Card* but when Bush was thirsting for a war, he played it anyway. Now the revisionists are trying to shift the story back the other way. Give them enuff time and they'll have Bush being the the president who cut down the cherry tree...

What we have is a very corrupt government comprised of individuals willing to do or say anything to keep in power. You have Repubs in Congress who routinely lock Democrats out of comittee's that write massive legislation (Energy bill, Medicare). You call that democracy?

You've asked for details. Half the American people want the deatils, also but with these crooks in control, perhaps historians will dig them up after it's too late...

I have, however, provided you the resource on the theft of the lection, should you be willing and open minded enough to read the book I've offered. If, not, then so be it for your professed interests in details...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:47 PM

I am of the opinion that the troops serving in Iraq deserve people's support. They were sent there at the behest of CIVILIANS. Not too many soldiers ever want to go to war. Those that do are a f##kin' lunatic fringe. No, these men and women did not elect to go there. The people that were elected sent them. It always struck me as a sort of blasphemy when people like Bush preen in a combat area--and that said--the troops had and have a right to be visited by the guy that sent 'em. I agree that Bush is less than admirable, but I wouldn't want to get the kids serving their country caught up in the rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 04:32 PM

Has there ever been a President who made a practice of wearing a military uniform? Even the ones who were actually entitled to wear miliatary uniforms because that's what they'd done before being President?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 04:47 PM

I haven't seen him in a uniform...although I also wouldn't go out of my way to look at him, either. The flight suit was appropriate for a ride in a jet (The ride itself is another issue, which has been beaten to death) and the jacket he's wearing in this picture of jis visit to Iraq certainly isn't part of a uniform. It seems to me that I've also seen him in an OD green windbreaker with a nametape on it, and that isn't part of any services' uniform.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:08 PM

Well, it's been said before: put him in BDUs and send him and his advisors to the front. Then, see how long the war would last.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:02 PM

Well, speakin' of smoke and mirrors, wouldn't Bush have to wear a uniform to land a plane on a carrier deck?

(Oh, he wasn't actaully piloting the plane? Hmmmmm? Wonder how many folks know that?)

Which brings me back to my challenge. I have offered a head to head competition with Bush on landin' a danged plane on a carrier deck and Bush has not responded and I'm not even a licensed pilot and haven't had even one hour of ground school. Yep, if wants to repeat (ha) his landing in whatever he landed I'll land a Cezna. Heck, he can go first if he wants. Don't matter. That's my challenge. But he won't do it. Why? 'Cause he didn't do it last time either.... But no one got around to bringing out that little nugget...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:09 PM

The ress didn't say he landed it. He probably just wiggled the stick a bit midflight. What is exciting about that is it is the President teaching the masses about PR diplomacy. He's a master.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:57 PM

His PR folks get the credit, Amos. The only thing that Bush is a master at is baitin'... You connect the dots...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: mg
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:34 PM

you can't let someone do a carrier landing when they are way out of practice, haven't qualified for a flight physical etc. etc...might not have trained for it in the first place 30 years ago... you can't be serious can you? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:35 PM

Hi kendall,

Pleased to oblige:

"Drunk driving the most common crime in America.
   
OUI
The third most common acronym for drunk driving is OUI. This stands for operating under the influence. The word "operating" is actually more encompassing (and more accurate) than "driving" because almost all states make it illegal to "operate or be in actual physical control" of a motor vehicle. This means that you can be sitting in your car, off the side of the road, with the engine running and the car in park, and asleep, yet still be charged with OUI (or DUI or DWI, for that matter, in most states). The states that have OUI as their acronym are Maine, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island."

The above text is an explanitory paragraph for a layman facing such a charge today. The today is important.

Now let's put this in context, kendall forgot to tell us when this happened - 1976. Now according to "Title 29-A of the Maine laws", an OUI offense was not considered a crime, but a traffic offense in 1976. The laws on OUI offenses on the books today are tougher than the laws were in the 1970s but even under the law passed in 1993 the incident was NOT a "criminal" offense since Bush was:

- Not under 21;
- Was not resisting arrest;
- Did not refuse to take a sobriety test;
- Did not have a blood-alcohol level higher than .15;
- Was not speeding.

Has this any bearing on Bush being?

From Mr. B. Kennedy:

A coward - Certainly not. In fact quite the reverse. This revelation came to light just four days before the 2000 election. When confronted with the report GWB did exactly the same as he did on the night in question. He admitted the offence and stated that he fully realised that he was in the wrong. In 1976 he said that to a Police Officer, in the latter instance that was in front of the media four days before election - not the action of a coward.

A half-wit - Definitely, anyone who drinks and drives is at best a half wit, I could call them more. But he admitted it paid his fine and has subsequently never repeated the offence, so perhaps he has learnt his lesson - giving up drinking seems to indicate this

A thief - Nope

A cheat - Nope

A liar - Nope

Additional from Bobert:

A crook - No bearing whatsoever according to Maine Law in force at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:30 PM

OUI means 'operating under the influence?' Shee-it. I thought he said OK to some gal from Quebec. Well ruin my friggin' day why don't ya! Teribus: your defense of your President is commendable. I admire courage. I also admire people who know when to quit. So far, you're batting 500. Better than anyone in the majors. Try for 1000 will ya?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:58 PM

brucie, Teribulis doesn't have a president. He does have a queen though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:11 AM

P A R D O N me for that erroneous assumption. Thank you, Ebbie. And, so do I (have a Queen that is). On the bright side Treibus, our votes would have cancelled each other's, and that will have to satisfy the two of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:39 AM

I do rather take exception to Bush wearing soldier suits, and I wonder why our troops don't. Can you imagine Lincoln giving the Gettysburg address in uniform? Or FDR donning khaki. Harry Truman served in the first world war, but he wore a regular suit to announce the Japanese surrender.
It makes me think of my father's story of a lawyer, who came back from the second world war, and took to wearing his good conduct medal into the courtroom. (He stopped when opposing counsel turned up wearing a Bronze Star.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 02:59 AM

Liked your story LadyJean,

Reminds me of one about a guy called Ian Fraser RN, ex-midget submarine commander. He and his diver were both awarded VC's for a successful attack on a Japanese warship in 1945.

A few years after the war Fraser was in command of an inshore minesweeper. He was up in Scapa Flow at the end of a big exercise and the Flag Officer and his dog were using Fraser's sweeper as a mail boat and general delivery service round the fleet. While doing this he passed a ship, a cruiser, shortly after colours and failed to salute it. The Captain of this ship, or his First Lieutenant, spotted the error and summoned Fraser onboard "Sword and Medals" for a formal dressing down.

Fraser, got changed into his best uniform, while the officer of the watch brought the sweeper alongside the accommodation ladder of the cruiser. Fraser jumped onto the ladder and started to climb up, only to find the top of the ladder roped off. So drawing his sword he hacked his way through, only to discover the reason for the rope - they'd just painted the deck.

Not wishing to be late, he marched across the deck which had been painted in the usual Brunswick green. He came off the paint onto an immaculately scrubbed wooden deck, and leaving a trail of steaming boot footprints he stormed off to the Captain's cabin. On arriving he glared at the marine sentry and went inside, now leaving a trail of footprints on the Captain's carpet. Noticing this the Captain thundered at Fraser, "What the bloody hell do you think your are playing at" to which Fraser replied, at equivalent decibel level "Where's my f*****g Guard and Band?" The Captain did the gold-fish bit and Fraser continued, "You ordered me here stipulating sword and medals - now where is my f*****g Guard and Band?" The Captain eagle-eyed as ever caught the drift apologised and sent Fraser back to his ship.

As a holder of the VC, the Captain should have saluted him, on boarding the cruiser Fraser was entitled to be saluted on the brow by the Officer of the Day, a Royal Marine Guard and a Band. Nothing more was ever said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:55 AM

Difference is the lawyer in LadyJean's father's story had a conscience and a sense of shame.

Dumbya has neither.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 09:03 AM

Back to the uniform thing Eh,

Subject: RE: BS: Baghdad gets Bushwhacked
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 09:17 AM

Hey, at least his handlers didn't dress him up THIS time in a phony uniform he wasn't remotely entitled to wear. Perhaps that's progress- of a sort?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: kendall
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 09:20 AM

Terribus, OUI is a crime. I dont give a shit how common it is. Furthermore, it wasn't his ONLY offense. He was convicted in Texas too, and he was convicted of theft in college. He stole a sign. Cut it any way you wish, he entered the White House as the only man to be president with a criminal record. Spin it until you are dizzy. What is, is.

You may have forgotten the incident when a local laWyer overheard a conversation that revealed that Bush had other convictions for OUI, and this lawyer got death threats from some rigt wing asshole. Death threeats for uncovering the truth about a lying phoney and a friggin' drunk. I suppose you also believe that "pretzel" story too?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 01:35 PM

Lawyers name wasn't Conolly was it? Or was Conolly the guy the lawyer talked to about being in Court when GWB turned up to plead Guilty - only thing is GWB did not go to Court, he didn't have to, he paid his fine at the police station and left. Never been in jail either, that was another of Conolly's little spins, Conolly said of the incident "He could have gone to jail" and that was where the rumour started, plenty willing to believe it, but not one shred of truth in it.

"OUI is a crime" Quite agree, in the State of Maine, it is now and has been since 1993 and even today it ONLY a criminal offense PROVIDED:
The person arrested for that offense is under 21;
The person resisted arrest;
The person refused to take a sobriety test;
The person has a blood-alcohol level higher than .15;
The person was speeding.

Does not alter the fact that in 1976 IT WAS NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENSE. That you can verify by reading your own (Maine) State's Laws.

He stole a sign while he was at College - well tickle my arse with a feather - Can't get much worse than that eh? PATHETIC


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 03:04 PM

Is the legal limit still .15? In Canada, it's .08. Wow. Gotta be better beer here, right? Now, there's a thread worth posting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 03:18 PM

Another perspective from a soldier on Bush's visit.

Directly from the Stars & Stripes:


Thanksgiving visit

So the boss came to visit us on Thanksgiving, under wraps and under the American flag. Thanks for coming. Oh thank you, kind leader, merciful leader, for taking one day out of your busy schedule to visit us. The shepherd looking over his flock. Thanks for making the sacrifice. God knows we're making one. Re-election is coming up, but that had nothing to do with it, now did it?

I remember your victorious landing on the ship. Oh how all those then alive, and now dead, would love to sit down next to you, cutting their families' turkeys and filling the empty seats at the tables. Leader of the free world, be our guest at the head of our table. Or would you like to sit in one of the many empty seats left by the war? There's plenty of room. Enough turkey and stuffing to go around. Fat and happy, delirious and exhausted. That's how I feel.

In a hurry? Going so soon? Have time for questions? You sure do have time for compliments. Do you ever feel responsible? I'm tired of this. Go back home to the ranch and tell them how happy and fulfilling the trip made you feel.

Spc. Damian Torres
Iraq

Link: ">http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=19144

Also read the letter titled "West Went Too Far."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 03:19 PM

Sorry, link didn't seem to work. Trying again:

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=19144 ">">http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=19144


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 03:21 PM

Hoo! Weirdness! Worked both times when I tested. Hope you all can find the article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 03:54 PM

interesting letter from the person in the unit turned away from the mess hall they are stationed near on Thanksgiving for 'security reasons' who had to eat MRE's so Bush could have his picture taken.
justify that Teribus?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:13 PM

I believe this is the link you wanted.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:22 PM

Yes it is, Amos, and thanks. Don't know why I couldn't get it to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:54 PM

Exigencies of the service dearheart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 06:01 PM

I noticing a curious departure here on his usual "War and Peace" length rebuttals. Seems that he has set the microsope off to the side since by Dec 3, 10;02 challenge to him to get the details, which as we know he loves, on the theft of the 2000 Election. Comes no surprise that he dismisses so easily the theft of a traffic sign.

BTW, some kids in Virginia are doing some serious time in prison for stealing a traffis sign. Sure, in the Virginia case, an accident occured as a result and there was a fatality. But that shouldn't matter. The signs are there for safety, not decoration. Yeah, I think that the T-Bird's is going to have to change his denials on, at the very least, the theft issue.

I think the drunk drtiving also point to someone who cares more about his own need for gratification at the expense of the safety of others. There is definately a pattern of behavior in this man that is far from virtues we'd like to think our leaders possessed...

I hate to tell ya' T but your star is falling. Sure, he may manipulate enough media and information to get re-selected but should Americans ever undo the damage he has done to America, and it's citizens way of life, all in the name of fighting terrorism, ahhhh, historians will not treat him well. These times will be looked at as examples of how not to behave as a nation. Just like the internment of the Japanese citizens in WW II and the McCarthy days. Same crap, different day...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:08 PM

Bobert

I suggest you concentrate on Bush's real faults and failings. Not trying to unjustify the liberation of the Iraqui peoples by confusing the issue.

OR is that to near asking for facts and details ?

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: kendall
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM

On a dead man's door you can knock forever.
No matter what we say, there are those who will never admit that this guy is a loser.

One of my good friends who worked at a Kennebunk hotel as a teen ager says George and Jeb were both arrogant spoiled little bastards who treated everyone like dirt. Spin that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:44 PM

Even Barbara Bush, when asked about Georgie as a boy, just rolled her eyes and looked away.

And, Gareth, when exactly were the Iraqi people liberated. And from whom. Or to whom... All our "liberation" has achieved is creating a much less stable and safe environment for the Iraqi people. But, yeah, Saddam was a bad man, right? Well, he was *our* bad man. We could have manipulted him into anything we wanted becuase he was a company player. Problem is that two Bush presidents decided that doing that wouldn't give their saggin' ratings a bump do they both manipulated Saddam into the Boogie Man...

What a rediculuos arguement!

"Well, we ain't got Saddam in power" they squeal in glee.

Well, no, we don't. Nor do we have the tens upon thousands of "non-Saddam" Iraqis either. Nope they've been killed by us... Good for populrity ratings on the NASCAR/Budweiser/CountryMusic cicuit, but bad for karma... If they wanted Saddam why didn't they just kill Saddam????

"Well, we couldn't find him!"

Bull! If Dan Rather could find him, don't tell me that the CIA, of Special Forces couldn't!.... The NASCAR boyz might by that, but I don't...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:39 AM

"Exigencies of the service dearheart."
smug crap from the guy who loves the maybe real/maybe fake e-mail that supports his ideas but doesn't really want to hear about actual comments from soldiers printed in an actual armed services publication. here's another article with soldier commentary that you won't want to hear.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1211-06.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 06:55 PM

Yeah, the Washington Post did a short piece on "the rest of the story" in this mornings editiion. Page A-35, of course. The more we learn about this, the more it stinks... Hand picked soldiers for the photo op... Other's turned away to eat MRE's... But now, the revised edition of the story is that they could have walked back after 9:00 pm to have a Thanksgiving dinner???... Then there's the situation that has been revised 3 or 4 times now on just what commercial airliner spotted AirForce One. The White House is rewritin' this story almost on a daily basis.

I think that should Bush steal yet another election he'll porbably just make all these PR folks, for whom the taxpapyers are paying, and assemble them in a new cabinet level department called, ahhhh, The Department of Spin. Hey, thay can't just come out and call it the Department of Fabricators, can they?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM

Well Bobert and others.

I suggest you discuss this with the people of Kuwait, the Kurds, The Marsh Arabs, and other assorted odds and sods, oh and the people of Iraq.

You have in the past, and now again, advocated the assasination of S H. Why would you suggest that if he were not a "bad man" ?

Tho history might suggest that the attempts of the US of A to assasinate Castro have not been entirely succesfull.

What I find demeaning is your constant arguement that as SH wos our "bad man" no action should have been taken.

I respectfully suggest that your hatred of Bush Jnr clouds your judgement. It would (in my humble, non US oppinion) be better if Bush Jnr was not President. Perhaps yer energies might be better spent in doing your little bit to ensure a maximum anti-Bush vote next year.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 07:59 PM

You can bet your ass I'll be working to make Bush unemployed


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 08:12 PM

A telling extract fromt he letter written by a nurse in Germany who tends to US soldiers wounded in Iraq:

"My `Bush Thanksgiving' was a little different . . . I spent it at the hospital taking care of a young West Point lieutenant wounded in Iraq. He had stabilization of his injuries in Iraq and then two long surgeries here for multiple injuries; he's just now stable enough to send back to the USA. After a few bites of dinner I let him sleep, and then cried with him as he woke up from a nightmare. When he pressed his fists into his eyes and rocked his head back and forth he looked like a little boy. They all do, all 19 on the ward that day, some missing limbs, eyes, or worse.

"There are two more long wards just like this one. The ICU has been receiving soldiers for many months now, often unconscious young men on ventilators with wives and parents (our age) bending over the beds, stroking whatever part isn't bandaged, pinned, or burned. It requires a deep breath and strong heart anymore to walk through those swinging doors; I know the photo IDs outside the rooms will bear little resemblance to the men in the rooms.

"It's too bad Mr. Bush didn't add us to his holiday agenda. The men said the same, but you'll never read that in the paper. Mr. President would rather lift fake turkeys for photo ops, it seems. Maybe because my patients wouldn't make very pleasant photos . . . most don't look all that great, and the ones with facial wounds and external fixation devices look downright scary. And a heck of a lot of them can't talk, anyway, and some never will talk again. . . Well, this is probably more than you want to know, but there's no spin on this one. It's pure carnage . . . Like all wars, the "shock and awe" eventually trickles down to blood and death. But you won't see that. I do, every single day."

War is hell. That is not news. Young men and women die. Some lucky ones suffer dreadful injuries but survive. Proponents of this war say it is the cost of defending freedom, fighting terrorism, keeping power in our hands and out of our enemies'. Opponents believe the country was drawn into it by lies and misrepresentations and now stands alienated from the rest of the world with no clear way out. The arguments go around and around, on television, radio, and newspaper opinion pages.

As the country argues, Americans die, soldier by soldier; others are horribly injured, pool of blood by pool of blood. This nurse sees what we do not. She reminds us all, attention should be paid, from the top down, from the president to the people. It took physical courage for Bush to go to Baghdad on Thanksgiving Day. It takes courage of another kind to look into the eyes of the soldiers described by this nurse, even more courage to look into the eyes of family members who have lost a loved one. "...

Regards,

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 10:38 PM

What Amos reported, Gareth...

And don't worry, I have said here in the joint that my Green butt will be knockin' on doors and doing whatever the Dems need me to do... And you can take that to the bank!!!...

Wanta join me?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 01:05 AM

Amos,

Your post was at once poignant, tragic, beautiful and terrible. What a waste of young people.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:31 PM

"Bush is still a coward - then prove it - evidence is that when faced with the worst atrocity committed on American soil he did not shirk his responsibility, he showed the resolve and courage to take some very tough decisions - I do not believe for a minute he took them lightly. If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself."

Fact: Bush and Rice knew about the impending attack on 911 in the preceding July and did nothing to prepare for it. In fact, there is evidence that this "intelligence" was known prior to the July date. The responsibility was shirked. The American people were kept in the dark about this as well. Runs true to form.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 01:31 PM

"...they are gone where the forests of oak trees before.
gone to be wasted in battle." (Dancing at Whitsun)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 02:35 PM

Amos - I do not disagree with your post.

I am afraid that your apt comments are being used as a diversion by others from thier untenable and inaccurate positions.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM

"Thief: No proof offer purely opinion - no past form, no pending prosecution."

Fact: The taxpayers of America are being robbed by this horrendous tax cut which favors the higher percentage of exemptions of the wealthy. It's Robin Hood in reverse.

Liar: No proof offered only opinion - only depending upon how obtuse you want to be in understanding what was being said on the matter being addressed.

Fact: Every campaign promise has been violated with the exception of
capturing Saddam. Everything he has said has been contrary to his actions on the environment, global warming, education, benefits for veterans, drug prescriptions for the elderly (which is a ruse because it favors the drug and insurance companies and not the elderly),
phony WMDS, a workable Star Wars (that's the biggest lie and joke of all), the so-called Texas Miracle has been exposed, check the numbers,the "uniter" has turned "divider",the underhanded politcal manuevers by the Karl Rove crowd in viciously attacking the patriotism of such as Max Cleland who really served his country and didn't go AWOL for nine monthes in the Texas National Guard as Bush did but lost limbs in action. He lied about a clean campaign. He lied about the "fuzzy math" that he suggested others were doing.
He offered his own brand of fuzzy math that America will be paying for quite a while.


"Crook: No proof offered only opinion - On Harkin Energy, he cashed in $700,000, after predicting that the Company was getting a little out of its depth. He disagreed with the decision to pursue the offshore drilling contract in the middle east and pulled out of the company. Had he left is money in the company and had waited for another 9 to 12 months he would have made double that amount. Minor details Bobert."

Fact: What he did was in violation of the SEC. His adminstration has weakened that body so that it has no juice to investigate this
Enron-style fraud and he has profitted from it financially while his share-holders went broke. He may have made more money if he were allowed to get away with it but he had to leave the ship.

"Cheat: No proof offered only opinion - No charge exists, or record of disciplinary action having been taken, no recorded complaints, did qualify as "combat capable" in Delta Dagger, single-seat, all-weather, super-sonic interceptor, which is what he joined to do, US tax payers money was spent to train a pilot and that is what the US tax payer got."

Fact: Bush was grounded for being AWOL in Alabama because he didn't take a physical. Tax payers money was spent to train a deserter from the Texas Guard. There is no evidence to support that he attended
Guard service by the commander of the Montgomery unit that he was a part of. Ellington Air Force base in Houston shows no record of his attendance from about May '72 through '73. Lloyd, the commander said, "We cannot find the records to show that he fulfilled the requirements in Alabama." He did not honor his vows. He got taxpayers money and cut out on his unit.

"Half-wit: I don't agree here. He knows just what he's doing... I also believe he knows what he is doing and not doing a bad job of it at all."

Fact: Bush is not a half-wit but a wily and unscrupulous politican that will say and do anything to get elected. He just doesn't have good judgement to make a good president. He has alienated the world community and caused havoc in both Afghanistan and Iraq. American troops will be in those countries for some time to come. Vietnam revisited.

"International terror -
He has got the entire world focused on this. People are now more watchful than ever before. International and inter-departmental co-operation has never been better."

Fact: He has used the "terror" issue as a political ploy to advance his agenda. He has cut the budget for Homeland Security. Check the records.

"US Economy -
NYSE September 2001 7,700 something points, yesterday it briefly bounced through the 10,000 barrier to fall back marginally to just under the 10,000 mark. That is an increase of roughly 23%. Growth figures for the US Economy 8.4% - that is four times the rate of Europe and the far east. US interst rates at the lowest level they have ever been and likely to remain so for some time to come. Exchange rate at present means that US consumers will find foreign imports more expensive than domestically produced goods."

Fact: His administration is overseeing the highest rate of unemployment in America since the Depression days of Herbert Hoover.
The rich are getting richer, the poor, poorer. Interest rates are not the lowest they've ever been. And if they go lower, it could trigger a Depression like we had in the 1930's.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scounderel".

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:19 PM

Thankee fir your well written post, Frank... But I think you'll agree that Bush and his buddies will just tell their lies louder and more often. Hey, they have the micophone....

Like Teribus will believe tham, that's fir sure. He never met a Bush lie he didn't like. I challenged him to read Greg Palist's "Best Democracy Money Can Buy" since T loves tiny little details. It is well written and has all the details about how Bush's brother, Jeb, and Katherine Harris cleverly removed 57,000 predominently Democratic voters from the voting roles in Florida. But do you think T has any interst in learning the truth? Heck, no... Not a dimes worth of interst in anything except supporting every danged thing Bush does...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:22 PM

Frank, Your comment is completely without a scintilla of evidence. But the really neat thing about it, is the way it is destroying Howard Dean's credibility. He made that charge several weeks ago, and has been asked at almost every news conference about any proof he had when making it. He has been backpedaling like a man who brought a spoon to a knife fight ever since.

I love it; keep making 'em up. It's not that you're stupid, it's that you're so damn easy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM

Frank, it seems our messages passed in the night, I was referring to your message of 12:11 PM. As for your second, it is patently obvious you cannot distinguish fact from your opinions...

As I said, you make it too damned easy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 10:30 PM

When was an opinion changed in the face of indisputable facts?

What I found most interesting in this thread was: in Maine a BAC of .15 is considered the legal limit? I thought that was a little high, so I found a source to support my argument (wink, wink). Here, let me paste it in for you:

BAC = .12-.15 = Vomiting usually occurs, unless this level is reached slowly or a person has developed a tolerance to alcohol. Drinkers are drowsy.

Drinkers display emotional instability, loss of critical judgment, impairment of perception, memory, and comprehension.

Lack of sensor-motor coordination and impaired balance are typical. Decreased sensory responses and increased reaction times develop. The vision is significantly impaired, including limited ability to see detail, peripheral vision, and slower glare recovery.

7. BAC = .15 = This blood-alcohol level means the equivalent of 1/2 pint of whiskey is circulating in the blood stream.


Here's my source. For me this means about 7.5oz (6 drinks) of 80 proof alcohol within a one hour period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 11:38 PM

The legal limit in Maine at the present time is 0.08%. The discussion is, or should be, whether or not Mr. Bush was Operating Under the Influence according to the laws in effect in 1976.

The bigger question is what the hell that has to do with whether or not he was fulfilling his responsibilities as the Commander in Chief by visiting soldiers in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 03:59 AM

GUEST,guest from NW 12 Dec 03 - 04:39 AM,

I don't believe I made any comment about the letters/e-mails. I was aked a specific question relating to the the reports about people being turned away and how it could be justified. Exigencies of the service, might sound like smug crap to you, but it is the sort of thing that does happen in the armed forces when VIP's turn up. If you had ever been in the forces you would know that, and definitiely you would have experienced it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 05:12 AM

GUEST,Frank - 14 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM

As said by Claymore your "facts" are purely your opinions.

On tax cuts, that method of revitalising economies has been tried by others in the past and it has been found to be effective - Germany at the moment attempting to do precisely that.

On the AWOL bit - you said - "Fact: Bush was grounded for being AWOL in Alabama because he didn't take a physical." The bit about not taking a flying medical was very true. Now why didn't he take a flying medical, check it out Frank, what was he going to fly in Alabama?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:09 AM

Right you are Teribus. Bush was AWOL in Alabama where they
didn't have a flight school. You can check that out.

Claymore, my opinions have evidence to back them up. Challenge each one and I will give you what I believe to be credible evidence.

Please substantiate your claims as well. They need to be factually challenged.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:52 PM

I need to clarify my argument.   Bush moved to Alabama to work on a friend's campaign in May of 1972. He asked the Guard to be
temporarily at Maxwell Air Force Base. The Guard agreed but there were no planes or pilots there. Bush couldn't learn to be a pilot there.

Albert Lloyd Jr., the Texas Air Guard's personnel director informed the Boston Globe that he was astonished that Bush could do this.The Boston Glove said, "Flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and some were assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Mongomery where Bush was living."
Bush didn't take the physical and was grounded.

The commander of the Montgomery unit said that he had no record
of Bush ever reporting for duty. Albert Lloyd Jr. said that if Bush had reported it would have been logged, certified and sent to
Ellington Air Force Base in Houston. He said that they were unable to find the records that he fulfilled his requirements in Alabama. Bush did not return to his unit at Ellington. The notation dated May 2, 1973 on his performance record noted that "Lieutenant Bush has not been observed at this unit" for the past year.

In May, June and July, '73 Bush did 36 days of duty at Ellington, got permission to end his duty early so he could go to Harvard Business School.

In September 26, 1999, Ben Barnes a former Speaker of the House was quoted as saying in the New York Times that a Houston oilman
named Sidney Adger, a friend of Bush Senior asked him to pull strings for W and Barnes contacted the Brigadier General of the Guard.

In Houston, well-connected and well-heeled sons of families got into the 147th Fighter Unit of the Texas Air National Guard that was called the "Champagne Unit".

In the Houston Chronicle in 1994 quotes Bush saying in 1990,
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor wwas I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." On his application papers he was unwilling to volunteer for overseas duty.

OK, lets see the evidence to prove the above wrong.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 11:28 PM

Danged, Frank, don't confuse these folks with facts. They ain't wired to accept 'em.... T-Bird has been avidin' me like I had a bad case of radiation ever since I, ahhh, provided him with book filled with those nasty little facts about the 2000 Election/Selection...

So don't get too disappointed when they don't show back 'round this thread. Facts jus' ain't their cup o' tea...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 04:57 AM

Fact Bobert, or opinions ?

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:39 AM

ROTFLMFAO - Why?

"Facts jus' ain't their cup o' tea...

Bobert"

Oh Bobert I didn't realise there was some sort of time-frame in which I had to complete the reading of the book you advised (now appears ordered) me to read.

Now about some details for Frank (now we are talking about mid 1972 here):

Frank is wittering on about flight schools and about learning to be a pilot - mid-1972 remember.

Having qualified as operational in Delta Dagger F-102A fighter aircraft in July 1970 - why would GWB be required to attend flight school? In May 1972 he did not need to learn to be a pilot he was one already - combat rated to boot, just go and find out what that means Frank. The ANG sent him to Montgomery AFB where there were no F-102 Squadron's or aircraft. The aircraft type had already started being withdrawn from service by the ANG in 1969. So when his flying medical came due in the summer of 1972, just what was he going to fly?


Facts Bobert are a damn sight more my cup of tea than they are yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:50 AM

So, T... You are gonna read the Palist book? Really? Better be sure to have yer seat belt buckled 'cause it's gonna turn yer world upside down... An' then yer gonna have to come back here an' admit to being a knothead...

Jus' funning', T-zer... Not about yer world getting turned upside down but about the hnothead part...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:51 AM

Is it conceivable that there was some desire to transition this hightly experienced pilot into some other type of aircraft? BTW, flight physicals are (and were) a requirement for individuals with flight ratings, regardless of whether or not they are (or were) actively flying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:33 AM

The military, unlike private pilots, conduct their own flight physicals on their pilots. Had Georgie been where he was supposed to be he would have had his physical. But he wasn't...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:51 AM

To answer your question regarding cross-training to another type of aircraft. Normally this would be done by unit, not individually, time taken seems to have been around 12 months for ANG Squadrons.

This would have meant that GWB would have been passed operational on his new aircraft type just in time for him to be discharged, that would have been a waste of time and resources. Additionally the aircraft that replaced the F-102's were F-4 Phantoms, a major difference in aircraft types being that the Delta Dagger was a single-seat all-weather interceptor, whereas the Phantom was a two-seat aircraft.

The official paperwork indicates that GWB assigned to Danelly AFB effective 15th May, 1972 with a non-flying status. His suspension from flying duties was dated 1st August 1972. That suspension makes reference to corrective action on the the part of the officer in question - basically get your medical - which GWB did later that year because he was flying again in 1973.

The AWOL thing just does not fly gents - sorry about that - the forces are particularly strict on this sort of thing and double standards are just not an option. Doesn't matter how well connected (examples: HRH Prince Charles & Prince Andrew at BRNC Dartmouth; and Prince Edward at RM CTC Lympstone) No charges brought, no official complaint registered.

But then I know that Bobert is of the school of thought that legally circumstantial evidence is everything so I'll make a deal. Every time you guys come with with this chesnut I'll come up with a plea for all those babies thrown out of incubators in Kuwaits hospitals by Saddam's troops when they invaded Kuwait in 1990.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM

"Frank is wittering on about flight schools and about learning to be a pilot - mid-1972 remember.

Having qualified as operational in Delta Dagger F-102A fighter aircraft in July 1970 - why would GWB be required to attend flight school?"

Never said he was required. He volunteered for flight school but didn't follow through.


"In May 1972 he did not need to learn to be a pilot he was one already - combat rated to boot, just go and find out what that means Frank."

The reason he got into flight school to begin with was to
avoid enlisting in the overseas service. If he was so qualified,
why did he avoid this service? Answer: To go to Harvard Business School. And if he was so qualified as a pilot, how come he got grounded?


" The ANG sent him to Montgomery AFB where there were no F-102 Squadron's or aircraft. The aircraft type had already started being withdrawn from service by the ANG in 1969. So when his flying medical came due in the summer of 1972, just what was he going to fly?"

That's the point. He could follow through on helping his friend's candidacy in Alabama and avoid the whole deal. It was clever evasion.

The wittering you mention doesn't sound like it's coming from this quarter.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:02 AM

GUEST,Frank 16 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM

You appear to suffering from massive date confusion.

Joined ANG 1968; entered flight training 1969; completed flight training July 1970; Alabama non-flying status May 1972; Suspended from flying due to lack of medical September 1972; Back with Texas ANG at Ellington flying May, June; July 1973; applied for and got early discharge to go to University after 5 years four months and five days service.

"He volunteered for flight school but didn't follow through."

Didn't follow through with what Frank? He did qualify operational on the aircraft being flown by the Texas ANG in 1970 having volunteered in 1968 - didn't follow through on what Frank?

Can't have it both ways Frank, in one sentence you say that he volunteered for flight school and didn't follow through - in the next you say the reason he got into flight school to begin with was to avoid enlisting in the overseas service.

Now as we do know that he did qualify as a pilot the first contention (regarding not following through) is a complete and utter crock. The second is also false because serving in the ANG was not a means of ensuring that you did not serve overseas, quite a number of ANG Squadrons spent time in Vietnam. Mind you he was fortunate in the aircraft type flown by 147 ANG - the F-102 was withdrawn from combat service in Vietnam in 1969 - while GWB was undergoing flight training. That means Frank that at the time he volunteered there was every possibility that 147th ANG, flying F-102's could have been sent overseas.

The reason he got grounded was that he missed a flying medical while assigned in a non-flying status. He subsequently regained his operational status by passing his next flying medical.

Now let me tell you about some Kuwaiti babies thrown from their incubators by Saddam's men in 1990. And believe me this story is the absolute truth - Or at least the baby/incubator story is as true as the Bush/AWOL story


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:46 AM

And George Washington cut down the apple tree... Don't firgit that one while adding more revisions to history... It's not like he was 15 minutes late to the physical, Teribus, and had to return the following day...

Since you enjoy research so much, hows about telling the fine folks here just how late Mr. Bush was...

Your attempt to connect a real story with a fabricated one is, at best, below you. But I guess if you're content on spending so much of your energy defending every danged thing that Bush does, yer gonna have to use a lot of trickery...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:47 AM

Doesn't matter a toss how late he was Bobert, the fact still remains, if he had been AWOL the military would have run him for it, irrespective of who he was, who his father was, or who his dog's uncle was.

They didn't did they - the answer to that is a straightforward Yes or No.

As we all know they didn't then the answer is NO. Therefore he did not go AWOL - nothing revisionist about that from this side of the discussion, you and others are the ones attempting to revise the history of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 02:53 PM

He was not charged with or convicted by court martial for the offense of AWOL. It is unfortunate, but not unusual, for officers to be allowed to resign or, if they have only a brief period of time remaining on their obligated service for it to just run out, rather than be subjected to a court martial. Reminds me a lot of the LTC in Iraq who is being allowed to resign in lieu of court martial after he held an (unloaded) pistol to the head of a prisoner and pulled the trigger-twice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: SueB
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 05:32 PM

Keep it up, folks, you've really got him on the ropes now. I could tell when he started shouting "Dead babies! Dead babies!" What do dead babies have to do with Bush being AWOL for a good portion of his military service?

You're showing us some scary thinking, Teribus. By your 'logic', if a person commits a crime, but gets away with it, i.e. is not prosecuted for it, then the crime didn't happen or must not have been a crime.

I admire your touching, if naive (credulous, gullible, etc.) faith in the military judicial system if you really think every soldier is treated the same no matter who their fathers' friends are or aren't.   Isn't it from the military that we have the expression "Rank has it's priveleges"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:00 AM

SueB 17 Dec 03 - 05:32 PM Asks

"What do dead babies have to do with Bush being AWOL for a good portion of his military service?"....the baby/incubator story is as true as the Bush/AWOL story.

I see you subscribe to the same high regard for circumstantial evidence as does Bobert. I would be worried about your 'logic', than mine, when applied to the subject being discussed. What in effect you are saying is:

" if (I believe, or think that) a person commits a crime, but gets away with (what I think, or believe he/she did) it, i.e. is not prosecuted for it (i.e. nobody else thought this person did anything wrong), then the crime (that only I think was perpetrated) didn't happen or must not have been a crime."

The correct expression, by the bye, is, "Rank hath its privileges" and the "hath" seems to indicate Biblical rather than military origins.

Anyone who truly knows anything about leadership knows that the expression you referred to about "rank has it's privileges" is false. There are very few, if any, privileges that go with rank, and the ones that might be there, don't in any way make up for the burden of the responsibility.

Thank you for admiring my touching faith in the military judicial system - despite the fact that such faith on my part does not exist, the military judicial system is as flawed as any other - but I am at least speaking from experience. While in the forces, one thing I did have faith in was the disciplinary code of conduct - difference between that and the military judicial system. Violate the first, the second becomes involved.

Question for you SueB - doesn't matter who their fathers (mothers?) are - HRH Duke of York, second son of HM Queen, 1982 Falklands, Helicopter Pilot flying SeaKings acting as decoys for Argentinian missile attacks - that was special treatment was it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 02:41 AM

The Exocet was a nasty weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 05:11 AM

Particularly as the computer assisted action information systems on RN ships on recognising the attack signature identified it as "friendly", Exocet being a NATO weapon.

On their way down to the Falklands the French put two Super Etendard squadrons at the disposal of the British Task Force and they ran attack drills as they sailed south, finally departing as the British ships passed Dakar on the west coast of Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM

On the subject of GWB going AWOL, which is now generally accepted as true: we'll never know, as all of his service records have gone missing. Strange, that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: TIA
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 02:12 PM

Teribus seems to be making the following syllogism:


Several British Royals were prosecuted for going AWOL.
An American President has never been prosecuted.
Therefore, the American President did not go AWOL.


The spin that I sense is Aristotle in his grave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM

an imagined scenario might go something like this:

WHITE HOUSE, staff meeting

"I know let's what! Let's get that chap over in UK, what's himself? No I didn't say he wets himself, but he may, you know. Yeh, that rabid rightwinger-ex-military-talking-tough, starts with a T, yeh Terripuss, that's the gal, yeh we get her to keep dragging along all those liberals in the chat rooms, while we can get on wif it everywhere else. They'll all be so busy trying to follow its logic and unable to escape that dogged persistent repitition of whatever we agree with that we'll be free to do pretty much want we want.

Mr. President, you'll be re-appointed before they can say Barb's your uncle! I know she's not your uncle, it's just an expression, I meant no respect to your mother, sir, believe me!"

"Yes sir, 11 days later and they're still at it. That Terripuss really cracks me up. No sir, I don't have any crack on me, it's just an expression, I think Cheney may have some for you though. Now that Terripuss is on the dead-baby-incubator thing, that'll keep them occupied for a while. No sir not AWOL, a while, I know you were busy sir, and rank has its privilege, isn't it? and you certainly are rank, if anybody is sir. yes sir, I know you were a lieutenant, and that is a rank, well thought through, sir, maybe it's time for a nap now or should we just wait till 8 PM so you'll get a good nights sleep?"......


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 01:36 PM

"Doesn't matter a toss how late he was Bobert, the fact still remains, if he had been AWOL the military would have run him for "irrespective of who he was, who his father was, or who his dog's uncle was."

Not necessarilly. The military has it's elistist wing as it is
not only an organization based on it's ability to kill but is a
political unit as well. There are ample examples of military
crimes that have not been processed and the guilty allowed to
go free because rank and privilege. Mi Lai for example. But
in the case of W, all evidence against him was destroyed.

The idea that somehow the military is this honest tribunal that
is exempt from political deception is a farcical myth.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM

Agreed, Frank. It should be nominated for admission to the Farcical Myth Hall of Fame, where the real Whoppers are put up on the wall in colorful plaster representations.

It would be a real hit.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 04:10 PM

Frank: the military convicted Mr. Calley and sentenced him to 20 years in Leavenworth. The civilians then commuted his sentence to time already served, about 18 months under house arrest in his Ft. Benning BOQ room, and separated him with a dishonorable discharge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 06:45 PM

Artbrooks, which civilians commuted Calley's sentence? This shows
how much interaction takes place between politicians and the military. The idea that the military is uninfluenced by civilian
political pressure is absurd. Calley certainly should have done
the equivalent time that any murderer does.

BTW Teribus, there is some evidence that Bush did not finish out
his tenure. There were statements by the commanding officer at
Ellington.   But there is no evidence that he did. Much of
the evidence was destroyed apparently.

However there is no evidence at all to support the incubator
atrocities.

Regarding the above letter, having reread it, I believe that it
is a carefully crafted piece of propaganda. Part of it makes me
question it's veracity. "Hillary Clinton is coming here tomorrow. For her sake I hope I don't see her. I might do something crazy like spit in her direction." For someone who is on the front
lines to insult a US senator makes me question the motive for
their being in Iraq in the first place. They certainly are not engaged in defending American's freedom of expression.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 08:15 PM

Good points, Frank. I love it when poor ol' T-zer gets nailed because what it means is thet he'll send it up the chain of cammand to his boss's PR folks, they'll crew on it, spin it and come uyp with yet a bigger and better lie. It's so, so entertaining..

Okay, now this can't be confirmed but the word on the street is that T-Bird was in a crowded elevator when his hero Bush "let one loose" and without a second thought the T said "Oh! Excues me! Danged omelette's always do that to me!" Like I said, we dohn't have confirmation on this one but it sounds like our T-Bird to me....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 09:11 PM

Frank: the sentence was commuted by Nixon. A search for "+calley +trial" will get you a lot of information; here is one of the possible links.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:40 AM

Nice one chaps, can't attack the evidence, can't attack the logic, so attack the person making the comments that blows your arguements to smithereens.

Quite amused at TIA's up-take on what I said in response to some thing Ebbie said earlier in this thread regarding "influence" and assignments in the forces:

"Teribus seems to be making the following syllogism:

Several British Royals were prosecuted for going AWOL.
An American President has never been prosecuted.
Therefore, the American President did not go AWOL."

Go back and read what was written you muppet!!

Three of the current "Royals" have served in the British armed forces - none have been prosecuted for going AWOL - all were treated in exactly the same manner as their colleagues while serving.

Prince Andrew - served as a front-line helicopter pilot during the Falklands War.

Prince Edward - joined the Royal Marines, when it was patently obvious that he was not physically capable of completing his training, pressure was brought to bear to "allow" him to finish his training and pass-out on the understanding that he would then resign his commission. The Royal Marines refused point blank to cave in to that pressure and he was withdrawn from training.

FACT - Was there any charge of being absent without leave ever raised with repect to Lt. George W. Bush's service in the Air National Guard? - NO.

FACT - Did Lt. George W. Bush apply for early release from his six year term of engagement, after having been "in" for five years, four months and five days? - YES

FACT - Was that request put through official channels and was it approved? - YES, his remaining time was spent in a reserve unit of the ANG. Were such requests uncommon and were such request normally denied? - NO

Now as much as you all want to deny the above, wishful thinking on your part does not, and will not, alter any of the above - Live with it, don't lie about it.

A very Merry Christamas and a happy and prosperous New Year tae ain and a'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 03:34 PM

Hi Teribus,

I have been giving some thought to your points.

"You appear to suffering from massive date confusion."

I don't think so.

Joined ANG 1968; entered flight training 1969; completed flight training July 1970; Alabama non-flying status May 1972; Suspended from flying due to lack of medical September 1972; Back with Texas ANG at Ellington flying May, June; July 1973; applied for and got early discharge to go to University after 5 years four months and five days service.

Yes and where was he the last part of Sept through May, June or July
if he had really been there then.

Where is the proof that this bit of information is valid?



"He volunteered for flight school but didn't follow through."

"Didn't follow through with what Frank? He did qualify operational on the aircraft being flown by the Texas ANG in 1970 having volunteered in 1968 - didn't follow through on what Frank?"

Went AWOL in late '72 through middle of '73. Prove that he didn't.
I did quote sources for my argument, however. I can reiterate if you like.


"Can't have it both ways Frank, in one sentence you say that he volunteered for flight school and didn't follow through - in the next you say the reason he got into flight school to begin with was to avoid enlisting in the overseas service."

Yes I can It's possible that someone joins the Guard to keep from going overseas and didn't complete his service.

"Now as we do know that he did qualify as a pilot the first contention (regarding not following through) is a complete and utter crock."

Would you get into a plane with him? I wouldn't.

" The second is also false because serving in the ANG was not a means of ensuring that you did not serve overseas, quite a number of ANG Squadrons spent time in Vietnam."

But that is not the case with our hero. He made sure he didn't.


" Mind you he was fortunate in the aircraft type flown by 147 ANG - the F-102 was withdrawn from combat service in Vietnam in 1969 - while GWB was undergoing flight training. That means Frank that at the time he volunteered there was every possibility that 147th ANG, flying F-102's could have been sent overseas."

He was very fortunate. His daddy saw to that.

"The reason he got grounded was that he missed a flying medical while assigned in a non-flying status."

And this is because he was nowhere to be found when contacted for
the physical.

" He subsequently regained his operational status by passing his next flying medical."

Possibly. He may have taken it later.

"Now let me tell you about some Kuwaiti babies thrown from their incubators by Saddam's men in 1990. And believe me this story is the absolute truth - Or at least the baby/incubator story is as true as the Bush/AWOL story "

Well my dear Teribus, it has to be true because Bush and his adminstration made it up. :)

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 03:47 PM

"Nice one chaps, can't attack the evidence, can't attack the logic, so attack the person making the comments that blows your arguements to smithereens."

Hi Teribus. No personal attack on my part. I am listening very
carefully to what you say. So far, I haven't delivered an
ad hominem argument. I respect your opinions although I don't agree with them.




FACT - Was there any charge of being absent without leave ever raised with repect to Lt. George W. Bush's service in the Air National Guard? - NO.

Counterfact: Yes. But it was not done by Bush's personal connections who suceeded in covering it up.

FACT - Did Lt. George W. Bush apply for early release from his six year term of engagement, after having been "in" for five years, four months and five days? - YES

CounterFact: And did he do it because he had a special pull as the
president's son? Yes.

FACT - Was that request put through official channels and was it approved? - YES, his remaining time was spent in a reserve unit of the ANG. Were such requests uncommon and were such request normally denied? - NO

CounterFact: These requests are reserved for the army elite. Those who have special political dispensation. It happens all the time. The army is not an egalitarian or democratic organization. It plays
favorites all the time and Bush got his share of them.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year as well Teribus.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 06:35 PM

Well, Frank. I have a feeling that this issue is not going to go away and with the unprecidented meanspirited partisanship of the currebt batch of Repubs., that the Dems are going to take off the gloves in '04 and make some of these character issues campaign issues. Yeah, Gore wasn't up to exploiting Bush's many character flaws (dishonesty, alcoholism, womanizing, cocaine, etc.) and look what it got them. No, it seems that if the Dems are gonna win back the White House then these issues will have to be *carefully* played. Especially if Clark is on the ticket, wyhcih I have a felling he will be. He can take Bush on on this issue.

But as a sidebar, let me get back to the "carefull" playing of these issues. The Repubs have done two things very well. First, they have instilled anti-governemnt feelings in way too many of the voters. All they gotta say is, "Do you want "Big Governemnt" in your pocket? Heck no, you don't! Vote for me!" The they go about fleecing the tax pay payer worse many time than the Dems would have done.

Secondly, they have also instilled in many voters that personal attacks are off limit. They had to do this after personally attaqcking Bill Clinton on a daily basis for the entire 8 years that Clinton was president. But they have achieved this abnd will be quick to lean on their buddies in the media to run stories on the news about the Dems using personal attacks and lots of folks will be turned off to the Dems... Meanwhile, the Repubs will run ads that say, "Congessman X is a baby killer! Call Congressman X and tell him that America isn't about killing babies...". Now will the media report that as being an attack ad? Heck no, they won't... But you'll be hearing more "Call Congressman X" attack ads in '04 run by Repubs than ever... And then they will squeel like stick pigs if they percieve their guy's lack of integrity being called into question. That's why it's going to have to be done with utmost care and by Wesley Clark...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 07:30 PM

Bobert -

Congratulations on an objective post.

One of my proudest possesions is an "Eve of Poll" leaflet issued by the Canterbury Conservative Candidate in 1997 accusing the Labour Party of "importing" thier "Allistair Campbell Clone" from Wales !!

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: TIA
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 11:49 AM

If I get to be a muppet, I would prefer to be Kermit since he plays the banjo better than I. Second choice would be Telly Monster who bangs out a kick-ass triangle. Third, of course, would be Mr. Hoots, but I'd have to put down the ducky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushes Visit, Email From Soldier
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 07:09 PM

Danged, Gareth, I didn't mean fir it to sound "objective"... Actually, since I have decided that I'm going to work for aDem (yuck...) I'm tyrin' to tone my Boss Hog stuff down a tad... Worst thing in the world is having someone on the phone that yer tryin' to get to vote for yer guy and you go into the Boss Hog routine...

You, T, if you think I attacked you personally, well, I reckon I did. For the life of me I can't understand why, since you don't live the the US, why you think you have to come to Bush's defense on danged near any issue... Hey, the guy is a liar. And that's the truth...
Crook? Well, lets put it this way. His campiagn finaciers are doing very, very well. Pick a donor and you'll see favorable policies and contarcts... That's the way the Mafia runs... Thief? Well, I've provided you with the evidence. It is way too much to present here in this forum. How you coming with it?

And, BTW, Merry Christmas...

Bobert


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