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BS: PC: New heights!

Mr Red 05 Dec 03 - 01:39 PM
dick greenhaus 05 Dec 03 - 10:58 AM
Cluin 05 Dec 03 - 08:49 AM
JennyO 05 Dec 03 - 07:06 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Dec 03 - 06:03 AM
JennyO 05 Dec 03 - 04:37 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 05 Dec 03 - 04:11 AM
sledge 05 Dec 03 - 01:38 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Dec 03 - 11:17 PM
Uncle_DaveO 04 Dec 03 - 01:32 PM
Ebbie 04 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM
Steve Parkes 04 Dec 03 - 12:18 PM
Uncle_DaveO 04 Dec 03 - 12:13 PM
Steve Parkes 04 Dec 03 - 11:49 AM
artbrooks 04 Dec 03 - 09:14 AM
Mr Red 04 Dec 03 - 07:48 AM
Wolfgang 03 Dec 03 - 02:53 PM
Cluin 01 Dec 03 - 07:23 PM
Jeri 01 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM
greg stephens 01 Dec 03 - 12:34 PM
greg stephens 01 Dec 03 - 12:33 PM
Jeri 01 Dec 03 - 11:45 AM
greg stephens 01 Dec 03 - 11:06 AM
Bill D 01 Dec 03 - 10:44 AM
Bill D 01 Dec 03 - 10:38 AM
GUEST 01 Dec 03 - 07:30 AM
greg stephens 01 Dec 03 - 07:26 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 01 Dec 03 - 07:00 AM
Stilly River Sage 01 Dec 03 - 12:45 AM
Jeri 30 Nov 03 - 04:22 PM
dick greenhaus 30 Nov 03 - 03:41 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Nov 03 - 11:32 AM
Clinton Hammond 29 Nov 03 - 01:29 PM
Jeri 29 Nov 03 - 12:43 PM
Mooh 29 Nov 03 - 11:01 AM
Jeri 29 Nov 03 - 10:14 AM
Mooh 29 Nov 03 - 08:54 AM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Nov 03 - 05:44 AM
Willie-O 28 Nov 03 - 01:51 PM
GUEST 28 Nov 03 - 12:55 PM
Mooh 28 Nov 03 - 11:43 AM
Jeri 28 Nov 03 - 09:18 AM
dick greenhaus 28 Nov 03 - 07:17 AM
Dave Masterson 28 Nov 03 - 03:53 AM
GUEST,Don Meixner 28 Nov 03 - 12:39 AM
wysiwyg 28 Nov 03 - 12:16 AM
Kim C 27 Nov 03 - 11:31 PM
Bill D 27 Nov 03 - 11:09 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 Nov 03 - 10:45 PM
HuwG 27 Nov 03 - 09:54 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 01:39 PM

Uncle_DaveO

If you add an egg boiled in water without the shell it is a buck rarebit. So you could say that even the "Wesh Rabbit" has been poached.

I'll get my coat........


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 10:58 AM

Back in the McCarthy era (Joe, not Eugene), the catch phrase was "Don't say Left, say Lincoln"


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 08:49 AM

Saw an item in a kiosk of cooking utensils and supplies in the mall yesterday...

Hunky Bill's Perogie Maker

I didn't know they still marketed them under that name, which always struck me as pretty non-PC. Maybe it's just me?...

Of course I had no idea that there actually was a Hunky Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 07:06 AM

Yeah, but it's not easy being green (sounds like a good name for a song).


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 06:03 AM

As long as they're Green, JennyO...


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 04:37 AM

All things considered, I'm surprised we're still allowed to have Blackboard Concerts!

jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 04:11 AM

Dave, I fear you may be labouring under something of a misapprehension. Or, in other words, spouting a load of cobblers.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: sledge
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 01:38 AM

Dave, poaching as a way to enjoy a trip to down under has been highly overrated, percentage wise the figure transported for poaching was about the same as that for bestiality.

I got this from the excellent book The fatal shore by Robert Hughes.
Cue the sheep jokes I suppose.

Sledge


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 11:17 PM

A large number of "blackboards" in Australian Educational Instituitions were painted Green, many years ago - for a better contrast, supposedly. Actually, less contrast, more visibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 01:32 PM

Steve Parkes:

In those days, catching your own rabbit was poaching, and was worth a one-way ticket to Van Diemen's Land or Australia!


Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

Here is what www.snopes.com has to say about it:

"For example, we've read of the 1999 incident in which a mayoral aide (temporarily) lost his job for using the word 'niggardly' in a staff meeting, even though the word's origins have nothing to do with race, and even though the aide used the word correctly (to mean 'miserly' or 'stingy')"


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 12:18 PM

Surely, in the days when it was common not to be able to afford to buy rabbit, any self-respecting Welshman would have had little trouble in i>catching one?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 12:13 PM

The One and Only Dai:

The dish is Welsh Rabbit, not "Welsh Rarebit".

It was indeed originally pejorative to a degree. The implication was that because of poverty the Welsh couldn't afford to buy a rabbit for dinner, and had invented this good cheese dish to substitute.

"Welsh Rarebit" is a sort of early PC avoidance.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 11:49 AM

I don't know what you folks in the US call the big black-coloured boards that teachers write on with chalk. In the UK we always called them blackboards; they are boards, and they are black. For some years they've been called "chalkboards". I think this coincided with the appearance in pubs of menus on boards painted with so-caled "blackboard paint", i.e. black with enough "tooth" for you write on with chalk.

(Sorry -- this is getting long-winded. Have I lost anyone?)

So ... in what way is it offensive to refer to something that is black in colour as "black"? I'm aware of the negative connotations when black is used metaphorically -- "black-hearted", etc. -- but there is NO such connotation where it's used literally. Didn't black people CHOOSE to be called "black" in preference to "coloured" and other words? They can hardly complain if we continue to use the word in its literal sense? I know my sister-in-law thinks it's all nonsense, anyway.

Viz magazine had a cartoon of a cowboy sitting in his living-room, while his wife was peering through the net curtains. She says, "Injuns movin' in across the road -- red as the ace o' diamonds!"

Steve (pink and modest about it)


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 09:14 AM

Some years ago, the League of American Wheelmen got caught up in the movement to remove "sexist" language...after all, Wheelmen implied that women were either unwelcome or second-class members. This was regardless of the historical fact that the League, in its early days (1890s), was a pioneer in the US in encouraging equal access and participation. So...they changed their name to the League of American Bicyclists. Funny thing, 'though...every year I send my check to "LAW" and every year they cash it.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 07:48 AM

Why stop at Server?

We all surf, and that sounds like serf and that is a slave. Ergo. Non PC.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Dec 03 - 02:53 PM

No need to stop at master/slave. Of course, 'server' has to be eliminated as well. And 'serve' 'deserve' 'preservative' 'conservative' and all other derivatives. They all come from the Latin word 'servus' (and the verb to it) which translates in one meaning as 'slave'.
Have there been any attempts yet to rename the Eurasian Slavs?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 07:23 PM

Like my Dad used to tell us kids:

"Quit whining or I'll give you something REAL to cry about..."


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM

HA! So now you're assuming I drink? How BOOZIST of you!
I'd be there, but have to wash my hair, and the Concorde is in the shop for its 10,000,000 mile maintenance and some pin-striping work.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 12:34 PM

And you too, Jeri


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 12:33 PM

OK Dick I'll be up the Greyhound in Penkhull tonight. come and claim it.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 11:45 AM

Greg, don't be so niggardly - buy Dick a pint!

I love 'The mayor said that an internal review had "confirmed for me that Mr. Howard did use the word 'niggardly,' but did not use a racial epithet..."'.   INTERNAL REVIEW?! You mean somebody took a couple of minutes to look it up an a dictionary!


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 11:06 AM

Well.I'm not sure if I owe a pint or not yet. the professor didnt lose his job(as far as I can see). But the guy in the political job did have his resignation accepted...but it seems he was then offered the job back. how did the story finish?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 10:44 AM

well..what happened to my link? I went back and looked, and it looks correct to me...trying again

http://www.adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 10:38 AM

here is the incident I remember about 'niggardly'.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 07:30 AM

Political correctness drive me round the bend. It has such a bad name in some quarters that the politically correct have decided to call it something else..politically conscience is now the new term for all these absurd little facisisms. Spare us ..pleeeeeeeaaase.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 07:26 AM

dick greenhaus quotes the case of a professor sacked for using the word "niggardly". Now, extreme Political Correctness is a fertile area for spawning Urban Myths. Dick, if you can produce convincing documentation for this story I will eat my hat, buy you a pint, donate a Boat Band CD to Mudcat, or perform any equivalent act of appropriate self-abasement.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 07:00 AM

Bloody hell dick, "Welsh Rarebit" is about as perjorative as "Belgian Waffle" or "American Pie". Sheesh.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 12:45 AM

The pot calling the kettle black is a more elaborate way of saying "it takes one to know one." Instead it could be "the sink calling the bathtub white," for all that it matters. It's simply comparison and degree.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 04:22 PM

Guy I worked with got 'turned in' by someone who overheard him call an African-American guy I also worked with "Blackie." Guy's last name was "Black" and it was what everyone called him. ("My name's George, but my friends just call me "Blackie.")


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 03:41 PM

and there was a college professor who got fired because he used the word "niggardly"--which has a solid Swedish derivation with no connection whatsoever with the dastardly N word.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 11:32 AM

I remember one parent (of Afro/Carribean extraction) at a local school pointing out one boy (of Caucasian mien) as being the ringleader for most of the trouble which had happened. The parent was quite expressive in putting across his view that tht boy was "The nigger in the woodpile". Several parents had problems keeping their amusement hidden.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 01:29 PM

"...like the pot calling the kettle black."

That's a referance to soot...


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 12:43 PM

I never heard the racist use of 'spade' until I was a teenager. Even then, it was in a discussion about meanings of the word and not someone using it. Sheltered life. I was perhaps 8-10 years old when, after hearing a big kid use it, I went home and asked my mother 'what's a "nigger"?' The problem was that I wasn't taught about bad meanings for good words (I'm not referring to the latter one) unless I asked. It's a scary thing to think you have a really good vocabulary, then find out that you have to watch every damned thing you say because you never know when something you mean in an innocent way is going to piss somebody off - mainly because people generally don't listen for context. It's not the context they care about anyway. It takes work to listen for what a person means and simply having a knee-jerk reaction to a word doesn't take any real listening at all.

Here's another one "...like the pot calling the kettle black." Is that racist, or is the 'black' referring to the earlier meaning of evil or devil-like?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 11:01 AM

Jeri...We used that (spade) expression growing up, in fact I'm certain I can remember my grandmother (she would have been 105 this year) using it. We also had no inkling of racist connotation. A spade to us was a shovel with a square nose and a D handle used variuosly for chopping ice, planting, or cutting sod. Being outdoorsy sorts, the expression made a lot of sense. Don't think I was aware of another meaning until adulthood, maybe from the influence of TV?

English is much fun.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 10:14 AM

I think that's a good example of the complication, Mooh. A perfectly good word with a perfectly clear and non-perjorative meaning get associated used to refer to people (in ANY way: good, bad or indifferent), and, if used later, with it's older meaning, it's a sensitizer.

Take 'black' for instance. 'Black' once was used to mean evil: 'black mood', 'my wife she's the divil , she's black as the coal' [1], 'long-tailed black man, come up behind' [2]. The latter was referring to the devil, who was supposed to be black - as in black as ink, not a dark shade of 'flesh'. It's as weird and other-worldly as pure white would be. People don't come in those colors.

THEN people use 'black' as a perjorative: those 'black devils'. It was considered an insult, because it was used to associate dark-skinned people with evil.

The older meaning fades in the collective consciousness, and 'black' isn't so bad. In fact, for a while (at least in the U.S.) it becomes a descriptive word of choice.

Now, sing the lines of the two songs mentioned or use the term to refer to evil, and see what happens. I once listened to a rather long and detailed rant from a man who was mad about someone having used the term 'a black mood'. Of course, another time I got to listen to him rant about how the Smurfs were teaching Satanism to children. (No, I'm not making this up and he was dead serious.)

The use of the words in their original way means that there may be some 'splainin', but it's a learning opportunity. You can't do a whole lot if, despite the explaining and the hearer knowing what you meant, when they STILL have an emotional reaction to the words. If it's a very small number of people, it's likely going to be their problem. If the number gets large enough, something will change. (And someone else will complain!)

[1] Fathom the Bowl
[2] Whoop Jamboree - this version says 'sailor' man.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:54 AM

Can you call a spade a spade?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 05:44 AM

Jeri - it was a Hindi concept...

Wille-O I agrre about Client & Server - I always felt that it depended on which way you were looking, as to who was teh client/server of each other...


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Willie-O
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 01:51 PM

...about 20 years ago in a forestry class about "logging and utilization", the instructor was describing the part of a sawmill that loads the logs onto the carriage. He labelled it "the nigger".

I objected to the term. "Well, that's what they call it", he said...

Well things change over time. Get used to it. M aybe they call that part the "slave" now; maybe they should just call it the "loader".

My problem is not that they rename things, but that the new names often sound like they were written by committees of social workers.
They come up with appellations that are three blocks long and don't mean anything unless you were present for all eight meetings they held to figure the thing out from all possible perspectives (they think).   

If new names for things are to be useful, they should be no more than three syllables long. Cameron's Law of Conciseness.   

I don't mind "primary" and "secondary" though. Or "powered" and "unpowered". "Client" and "server" never made any sense to me in the first place.

W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 12:55 PM

"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical over 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago, and a racist today." -- Thomas Sowell


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 11:43 AM

Thanks to Dick for posting this jelly-brained idea for us to gnaw on. My initial reaction was to indicate that the unduly elected Shrub was himself not far removed from slave labour ideals, but it's not that deep an issue.

Again, and this frightens me a little, I agree with Clinton Hammond! There are so many important things to correct in the world and this ain't one of them.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 09:18 AM

'Concave' or 'convex' - THAT'S polite! One's an innie and ones an outie. The first time I heard the terms used for electrical plugs, I knew exactly what they meant. The only reason I can see for taking offense at these non-perjorative terms being used with a different meaning than their original is that, for some people, they may be the 'sacred cows'* of words. It's sort of like calling someone a 'folk nazi'. Nazis were (are) real and using the word to describe something lesser in evil diminishes the power of the word.

Is one person complaining to one company going to change usage of words everywhere people speak English? I doubt it, but it makes people think. I can find a lot of things to be offended by that have more importance to me, personally. With words, it's a person's intent to hurt someone else or their apathy about hurting someone that bug me - not the words. I wouldn't expect people to be offended by me calling something a master or slave drive.

* Makes you wonder how Hindus feel about THAT term.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 07:17 AM

Some thoughts:
I can see some folks getting (legitimately) upset about words and phrases that are pejorative in nature: Welsh Rabbit, Jews Harp, Indian Giver, Dutch Treat and the like. I can't, for the life of me, see why master/slave combinations (whether in computers or automobile braking systems) or male(convex)/female(concave) connectors should bother anyone. There doesn't seem to be any value judgment implied nor stated, and I frankly can't think of any equally-clear replacements.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 03:53 AM

And how long are Microsoft going to inflict 'widows' and 'orphans' upon us in Word? A stiff letter to the Times is called for, I believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 12:39 AM

Trying to change a long used bit of jargon held as acceptable within many industries is expensive, time wasting and ultimately foolish. Especially when it is clear that these presumed offensive terms don't apply to humans. Are we concerned that we may be humanizing mechanical and electrical devices and the slave cylindar on my car brakes will rise up and fail to stop my car?

Colored crayons and colored pencils are now pencils and crayons of color? The cripples that hold up my windows in the walls of my house will be here to for known as physically challenged studs.

Susan don't be silly, just shoot the stupid ones.

Don Meixner


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 12:16 AM

Yeah, ain't it awful, people being human and all, spose we oughtta shoot 'em all? Or maybe just the ones we think are so dum, eh? There's an uplifting thought for ya! :~)

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:31 PM

Some people just have too much time on their hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:09 PM

and shall we cover all those F holes in all those instruments? And put drapes around piano 'legs' again? And quit referring to t-cups and ze-bras, lest we encourage the contemplation of very large mammaries?

Lawsy, lawsy, lawsy.....(I already read here that it is best to change the lyrics of "The Year of Jubilo", because...well..just because..)

(heard a comedian's routine where he was telling about being "bitten by chiggers...oh, excuse me..chegros..")...*sigh*


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 10:45 PM

Wow! I can't think of a single time in the last year that I've agreed with Clinton or DougR--but I agree whole-heartedly with both of them--mark this day on your calendar! Political Correctness is harder on the language than all of the Madison Avenue nonsense we encounter in every day advertising.

Maybe even Gargoyle will put his oar in the water on this topic.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: HuwG
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 09:54 PM

>nerd< For Win 2000 / NT systems, "primary" and "secondary" are awkward terms because a disk may be set up as a "primary master", "secondary master", and likewise "primary slave" or "secondary slave".

Ok, replace "master" with "primary". We now have to replace the other "primary" with something else. "Main" perhaps, with "backup" replacing "secondary".

Perhaps "client" and "server" ought to be replaced in computer system descriptions also, as they celebrate an exploitative and inequitable relationships between computers which were originally created as equals. And "controller" may well be an inappropriate name for any hardware or software device which influences the response of any attached device. >/nerd<

The "individual" whose complaint may eventually force the computer industry to rewrite all its manuals and other literature, may make a name for themselves quite as well known as that of Dred Scott. I leave it to others to determine whether he or she is as deserving.


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Mudcat time: 27 October 7:29 PM EDT

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