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BS: PC: New heights!

dick greenhaus 27 Nov 03 - 11:00 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 27 Nov 03 - 12:01 PM
wysiwyg 27 Nov 03 - 12:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Nov 03 - 12:20 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Nov 03 - 01:24 PM
GUEST 27 Nov 03 - 02:09 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Nov 03 - 02:15 PM
GUEST 27 Nov 03 - 02:28 PM
TheBigPinkLad 27 Nov 03 - 02:49 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Nov 03 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,petr 27 Nov 03 - 04:10 PM
Metchosin 27 Nov 03 - 04:16 PM
DougR 27 Nov 03 - 04:22 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Nov 03 - 04:35 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Nov 03 - 05:54 PM
greg stephens 27 Nov 03 - 06:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Nov 03 - 07:41 PM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Nov 03 - 07:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Nov 03 - 07:49 PM
dick greenhaus 27 Nov 03 - 08:03 PM
HuwG 27 Nov 03 - 09:54 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 Nov 03 - 10:45 PM
Bill D 27 Nov 03 - 11:09 PM
Kim C 27 Nov 03 - 11:31 PM
wysiwyg 28 Nov 03 - 12:16 AM
GUEST,Don Meixner 28 Nov 03 - 12:39 AM
Dave Masterson 28 Nov 03 - 03:53 AM
dick greenhaus 28 Nov 03 - 07:17 AM
Jeri 28 Nov 03 - 09:18 AM
Mooh 28 Nov 03 - 11:43 AM
GUEST 28 Nov 03 - 12:55 PM
Willie-O 28 Nov 03 - 01:51 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Nov 03 - 05:44 AM
Mooh 29 Nov 03 - 08:54 AM
Jeri 29 Nov 03 - 10:14 AM
Mooh 29 Nov 03 - 11:01 AM
Jeri 29 Nov 03 - 12:43 PM
Clinton Hammond 29 Nov 03 - 01:29 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Nov 03 - 11:32 AM
dick greenhaus 30 Nov 03 - 03:41 PM
Jeri 30 Nov 03 - 04:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 01 Dec 03 - 12:45 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 01 Dec 03 - 07:00 AM
greg stephens 01 Dec 03 - 07:26 AM
GUEST 01 Dec 03 - 07:30 AM
Bill D 01 Dec 03 - 10:38 AM
Bill D 01 Dec 03 - 10:44 AM
greg stephens 01 Dec 03 - 11:06 AM
Jeri 01 Dec 03 - 11:45 AM
greg stephens 01 Dec 03 - 12:33 PM
greg stephens 01 Dec 03 - 12:34 PM
Jeri 01 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM
Cluin 01 Dec 03 - 07:23 PM
Wolfgang 03 Dec 03 - 02:53 PM
Mr Red 04 Dec 03 - 07:48 AM
artbrooks 04 Dec 03 - 09:14 AM
Steve Parkes 04 Dec 03 - 11:49 AM
Uncle_DaveO 04 Dec 03 - 12:13 PM
Steve Parkes 04 Dec 03 - 12:18 PM
Ebbie 04 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM
Uncle_DaveO 04 Dec 03 - 01:32 PM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Dec 03 - 11:17 PM
sledge 05 Dec 03 - 01:38 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 05 Dec 03 - 04:11 AM
JennyO 05 Dec 03 - 04:37 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Dec 03 - 06:03 AM
JennyO 05 Dec 03 - 07:06 AM
Cluin 05 Dec 03 - 08:49 AM
dick greenhaus 05 Dec 03 - 10:58 AM
Mr Red 05 Dec 03 - 01:39 PM
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Subject: BS: PC: New heights!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:00 AM

[|] Technology News - November 27, 2003 [|]
L.A. Official: Computer Labels Offensive

November 26, 2003 10:31 PM EST


LOS ANGELES - A county official has asked computer and video equipment vendors to consider eliminating the terms "master" and "slave" from equipment because they may be considered offensive.

"Based on the cultural diversity and sensitivity of Los Angeles County, this is not an acceptable identification label," according to an e-mail sent to vendors on Nov. 18. The memo asks manufacturers, suppliers and contractors to change or remove any labels on components "that could be interpreted as discriminatory or offensive in nature."

The county's 39 departments also were told to identify equipment with offensive labels.

"We got a note back from IBM saying thank you for bringing this to our attention and we'll take a look at this," said Joe Sandoval, who wrote the memo. Sandoval is division manager of purchasing and contract services for the county's Internal Services Department.

The term "master" and "slave" - when applied to electronic equipment - describes one device controlling another.

In May, a black employee of the Probation Department filed a discrimination complaint with the county Office of Affirmative Action Compliance after noticing the words on a videotape machine.

"This individual felt that it was offensive and inappropriate ... given the experiences that this country has gone through in respect to slavery," office director Dennis A. Tafoya said.

The issue was solved by putting tape over the labels and replacing "master" and "slave" with "primary" and "secondary," Tafoya said.

Although Tafoya said his office did not find discrimination in the case, he added, "I think we constantly need to be conscious of these issues."

Sandoval said the county is making a suggestion, not trying to dictate political correctness.

"Knowing that it's an industry standard, there's no way that I'm going to stop buying that equipment," he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:01 PM

Does this mean that all the philosophy textbooks on the market will have to change the name of Hegel's slave-master dialectic?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:15 PM

No, it means that if you want to sell products in the internaitonal market, which includes large markets of people of color, you won't want to cut yourself off at the knees. I worked with a company that sold master-slave audiotape duplicators, and the reality was, their hoped-for enormous South American market was really pissed off about that term as a thing to keep alive, and sell products upon.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:20 PM

I gather it's not considered wise to talk about "motherbopards" in computers. I'm not sure about the state of play as regards male and female plugs...


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 01:24 PM

And a non-denominational seasonal greeting of your choice!


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 02:09 PM

I don't think it is unreasonable to seek changes to the naming of these technologies, whether it be master/slave or male/female. They were stupid choices to begin with, that didn't reflect the social realities of our times, much less the sensitivities of the consumers of the technology.

If the techo types insist upon being that bloody stupid and insensitive to the social norms of the day, then they deserve to get sued, AFAIC.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 02:15 PM

Oh please...

*sigh*

What a lot of goofs...

"They were stupid choices to begin with,"

Why? The term master/slave when used to describe drives is very accurate...

"that didn't reflect the social realities of our times,"
It's computer terminology... why should it have to.. not EVERYTHING is a social statement...

"much less the sensitivities of the consumers of the technology."

You mean the wankers who aren't happy unless they feel incensed by something that has NO bearing on their life at all???

"male/female"
Those are perfect terms when describing stereo plugs... indeed plugs of all kinds...


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 02:28 PM

In our polarized secular society Clinton, about half the population agrees with you and the others who find this, let me see now, what is it you called those with social sensitivity to other peoples' worldview...oh, right. Goofs and wankers.

About half the population would also agree with me though Clinton. So the question to be put to the business person is, can you afford to alienate half your market?

If they follow socially inept clods like yourself Clinton, they may fight political correctness all the way to the poorhouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 02:49 PM

Aye ... there's the rub! It sadly comes down to sales. Do they sell many fanny packs in the UK, I wonder?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 02:51 PM

Half??? Says who???

Cause most people I know have had it up to about HERE with this kind of stupidity...   Don't we have REAL problems like huger and AIDS and pollution and such like that are WAY more important that worrying about computer hardware terminology???

What's next? Muppets objecting to the term "Fuzzy Logic"????
Crack-whores objecting to the term "SCSI (Pronounced "Skuzzy") Interface"??? (oh... lemme guess... you object to the term crack-whore don't you... well, what would you have me call the poor unfortunate woman who by what ever circumstances finds herself selling her body to feed her addiction?)

And well, you didn't answer a single one of my questions.....

"what is it you called those with social sensitivity to other peoples' worldview...oh, right. Goofs and wankers"
I calls 'em as I sees 'em!


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 04:10 PM

right on clint.
plus santa can no longer go Ho Ho Ho. (cause that might offend)
p


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 04:16 PM

jeez, what are we going to have to rename the master and slave cylinders in our vehicles.

WSIWG, not quite sure why you believe that people of colour would have such tunnel vision that they would believe they are the only ones qualified to own the terms "master" and "slave" and as such, somehow be offended. The terms has been used since biblical times, as I'm sure you would be aware and have nothing specifially to do with race.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: DougR
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 04:22 PM

Clinton, I'm with you on this one. I think it's a ridiculous issue. My first thought, when I read the inital post was, "The Lord help my soul."

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 04:35 PM

"This individual felt that it was offensive and inappropriate"

To this individual, I'd like to quote my dear old mum....

"Give your f#cking head a shake!"


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 05:54 PM

Guest.. ya want something to get yer knickers in a bunch over...

Try this!

Slavery STILL EXISTS!!! Estimates talk about 27 million people around the world hold in bondage. And we're not talking about some distant banana republics, here's an extract of a list of nations where over the past year more than 100 humans were 'traded' (source is not some rampant NGO but the US foreign ministry): Albania, Angola, Belgium, Benin, Bolivia, Brazil,Canada, China, Costa Rica, Denmark, Germany, Estland, Finland, Greece, Haiti, India, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kenia, Kuwait, Malaysia, Mexico, Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Ruanda, Russia, Sambia, Saudi-Arabiai, Sri Lanka, Spain, Switzerland (dammit), Sweden, Taiwan, Turkey, the United Kingdom, the United States, Vietnam....

did I mention it's an abbreviated list??

The estimated worth of slave-labour for world-economy is around 13 billion dollars per annum. Modern slavery exists in many appaling forms: including child-labour, prostitution (that's how most European countries made it into that list, bleech), debt-slavery where whole families are hold into slavery for decades for a debt amounting to a couple of dollars - the children 'inheriting' their parents debt, people being abused as organ 'donators' never even receiving the ridiculous sum they were promised for the deal.

Some stupid words are offensive to those pc-zealots? Try the fact that every minute somewhere on this planet a woman or a child gets raped in enforced prostitution...

Slavery still exists and banning the use of those terms with regards to computers won't do zilch to change that.

http://www.freetheslaves.net/index.html

So take yer white-bread, suburbanite idignation, and cram it with wallnuts...


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 06:18 PM

Well, Clinton says it should be determined by honsty, GUEST by money. The way the world wags , GUEST is probably right, though it's hard to admire his or her reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 07:41 PM

I was stupid enough to link the thread name "Bereavement" with other threads in the "Mudcat Thread Name Game" thread - was sent a PM asking me not to be so insensitive in future as SOMEONE MAY GET UPSET! (Very probably somone who had so many other more serious things on their mind that they wouldn't have time to read such a trivial thread!) Fortunately I don't wish to remember who that was.

Won't play that thread game any more - got many better things that give me much better jollies to do with my time! Haven't seen the thread much since then... wonder how many others don't have time to play either... ;-)

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 07:45 PM

I often find myself at odds with Clinton Hammond, sometimes on the merits of an argument, but often I suppose you'd say primarily on style.

In this case I have to say that, despite his choice of terms, I have to agree with his central attitude to this kind of piffling complaint.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 07:49 PM

"male/female" in this context ain't mean to reflect "social realities". The terms refer to some corporeal realities which aren't open to change.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 08:03 PM

And then there are "hermaphrodite" connectors. For that matter, drifting back to the sailing scene, there was a Barkentine, or hermaphrodite Bark as well as a Brigantine, or hermaphrodite Brig.

I think it's a bit provincial to equate "slave" with "black" and "master" with "white"---history has certainly documented many examples of black slaveholders and white slaves. And I object to destroying a perfectly good language to conform to transitory social points of view. But then, I'm just an old fashioned European-American.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: HuwG
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 09:54 PM

>nerd< For Win 2000 / NT systems, "primary" and "secondary" are awkward terms because a disk may be set up as a "primary master", "secondary master", and likewise "primary slave" or "secondary slave".

Ok, replace "master" with "primary". We now have to replace the other "primary" with something else. "Main" perhaps, with "backup" replacing "secondary".

Perhaps "client" and "server" ought to be replaced in computer system descriptions also, as they celebrate an exploitative and inequitable relationships between computers which were originally created as equals. And "controller" may well be an inappropriate name for any hardware or software device which influences the response of any attached device. >/nerd<

The "individual" whose complaint may eventually force the computer industry to rewrite all its manuals and other literature, may make a name for themselves quite as well known as that of Dred Scott. I leave it to others to determine whether he or she is as deserving.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 10:45 PM

Wow! I can't think of a single time in the last year that I've agreed with Clinton or DougR--but I agree whole-heartedly with both of them--mark this day on your calendar! Political Correctness is harder on the language than all of the Madison Avenue nonsense we encounter in every day advertising.

Maybe even Gargoyle will put his oar in the water on this topic.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:09 PM

and shall we cover all those F holes in all those instruments? And put drapes around piano 'legs' again? And quit referring to t-cups and ze-bras, lest we encourage the contemplation of very large mammaries?

Lawsy, lawsy, lawsy.....(I already read here that it is best to change the lyrics of "The Year of Jubilo", because...well..just because..)

(heard a comedian's routine where he was telling about being "bitten by chiggers...oh, excuse me..chegros..")...*sigh*


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:31 PM

Some people just have too much time on their hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 12:16 AM

Yeah, ain't it awful, people being human and all, spose we oughtta shoot 'em all? Or maybe just the ones we think are so dum, eh? There's an uplifting thought for ya! :~)

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 12:39 AM

Trying to change a long used bit of jargon held as acceptable within many industries is expensive, time wasting and ultimately foolish. Especially when it is clear that these presumed offensive terms don't apply to humans. Are we concerned that we may be humanizing mechanical and electrical devices and the slave cylindar on my car brakes will rise up and fail to stop my car?

Colored crayons and colored pencils are now pencils and crayons of color? The cripples that hold up my windows in the walls of my house will be here to for known as physically challenged studs.

Susan don't be silly, just shoot the stupid ones.

Don Meixner


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 03:53 AM

And how long are Microsoft going to inflict 'widows' and 'orphans' upon us in Word? A stiff letter to the Times is called for, I believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 07:17 AM

Some thoughts:
I can see some folks getting (legitimately) upset about words and phrases that are pejorative in nature: Welsh Rabbit, Jews Harp, Indian Giver, Dutch Treat and the like. I can't, for the life of me, see why master/slave combinations (whether in computers or automobile braking systems) or male(convex)/female(concave) connectors should bother anyone. There doesn't seem to be any value judgment implied nor stated, and I frankly can't think of any equally-clear replacements.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 09:18 AM

'Concave' or 'convex' - THAT'S polite! One's an innie and ones an outie. The first time I heard the terms used for electrical plugs, I knew exactly what they meant. The only reason I can see for taking offense at these non-perjorative terms being used with a different meaning than their original is that, for some people, they may be the 'sacred cows'* of words. It's sort of like calling someone a 'folk nazi'. Nazis were (are) real and using the word to describe something lesser in evil diminishes the power of the word.

Is one person complaining to one company going to change usage of words everywhere people speak English? I doubt it, but it makes people think. I can find a lot of things to be offended by that have more importance to me, personally. With words, it's a person's intent to hurt someone else or their apathy about hurting someone that bug me - not the words. I wouldn't expect people to be offended by me calling something a master or slave drive.

* Makes you wonder how Hindus feel about THAT term.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 11:43 AM

Thanks to Dick for posting this jelly-brained idea for us to gnaw on. My initial reaction was to indicate that the unduly elected Shrub was himself not far removed from slave labour ideals, but it's not that deep an issue.

Again, and this frightens me a little, I agree with Clinton Hammond! There are so many important things to correct in the world and this ain't one of them.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 12:55 PM

"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical over 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago, and a racist today." -- Thomas Sowell


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Willie-O
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 01:51 PM

...about 20 years ago in a forestry class about "logging and utilization", the instructor was describing the part of a sawmill that loads the logs onto the carriage. He labelled it "the nigger".

I objected to the term. "Well, that's what they call it", he said...

Well things change over time. Get used to it. M aybe they call that part the "slave" now; maybe they should just call it the "loader".

My problem is not that they rename things, but that the new names often sound like they were written by committees of social workers.
They come up with appellations that are three blocks long and don't mean anything unless you were present for all eight meetings they held to figure the thing out from all possible perspectives (they think).   

If new names for things are to be useful, they should be no more than three syllables long. Cameron's Law of Conciseness.   

I don't mind "primary" and "secondary" though. Or "powered" and "unpowered". "Client" and "server" never made any sense to me in the first place.

W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 05:44 AM

Jeri - it was a Hindi concept...

Wille-O I agrre about Client & Server - I always felt that it depended on which way you were looking, as to who was teh client/server of each other...


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:54 AM

Can you call a spade a spade?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 10:14 AM

I think that's a good example of the complication, Mooh. A perfectly good word with a perfectly clear and non-perjorative meaning get associated used to refer to people (in ANY way: good, bad or indifferent), and, if used later, with it's older meaning, it's a sensitizer.

Take 'black' for instance. 'Black' once was used to mean evil: 'black mood', 'my wife she's the divil , she's black as the coal' [1], 'long-tailed black man, come up behind' [2]. The latter was referring to the devil, who was supposed to be black - as in black as ink, not a dark shade of 'flesh'. It's as weird and other-worldly as pure white would be. People don't come in those colors.

THEN people use 'black' as a perjorative: those 'black devils'. It was considered an insult, because it was used to associate dark-skinned people with evil.

The older meaning fades in the collective consciousness, and 'black' isn't so bad. In fact, for a while (at least in the U.S.) it becomes a descriptive word of choice.

Now, sing the lines of the two songs mentioned or use the term to refer to evil, and see what happens. I once listened to a rather long and detailed rant from a man who was mad about someone having used the term 'a black mood'. Of course, another time I got to listen to him rant about how the Smurfs were teaching Satanism to children. (No, I'm not making this up and he was dead serious.)

The use of the words in their original way means that there may be some 'splainin', but it's a learning opportunity. You can't do a whole lot if, despite the explaining and the hearer knowing what you meant, when they STILL have an emotional reaction to the words. If it's a very small number of people, it's likely going to be their problem. If the number gets large enough, something will change. (And someone else will complain!)

[1] Fathom the Bowl
[2] Whoop Jamboree - this version says 'sailor' man.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 11:01 AM

Jeri...We used that (spade) expression growing up, in fact I'm certain I can remember my grandmother (she would have been 105 this year) using it. We also had no inkling of racist connotation. A spade to us was a shovel with a square nose and a D handle used variuosly for chopping ice, planting, or cutting sod. Being outdoorsy sorts, the expression made a lot of sense. Don't think I was aware of another meaning until adulthood, maybe from the influence of TV?

English is much fun.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 12:43 PM

I never heard the racist use of 'spade' until I was a teenager. Even then, it was in a discussion about meanings of the word and not someone using it. Sheltered life. I was perhaps 8-10 years old when, after hearing a big kid use it, I went home and asked my mother 'what's a "nigger"?' The problem was that I wasn't taught about bad meanings for good words (I'm not referring to the latter one) unless I asked. It's a scary thing to think you have a really good vocabulary, then find out that you have to watch every damned thing you say because you never know when something you mean in an innocent way is going to piss somebody off - mainly because people generally don't listen for context. It's not the context they care about anyway. It takes work to listen for what a person means and simply having a knee-jerk reaction to a word doesn't take any real listening at all.

Here's another one "...like the pot calling the kettle black." Is that racist, or is the 'black' referring to the earlier meaning of evil or devil-like?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 01:29 PM

"...like the pot calling the kettle black."

That's a referance to soot...


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 11:32 AM

I remember one parent (of Afro/Carribean extraction) at a local school pointing out one boy (of Caucasian mien) as being the ringleader for most of the trouble which had happened. The parent was quite expressive in putting across his view that tht boy was "The nigger in the woodpile". Several parents had problems keeping their amusement hidden.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 03:41 PM

and there was a college professor who got fired because he used the word "niggardly"--which has a solid Swedish derivation with no connection whatsoever with the dastardly N word.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 04:22 PM

Guy I worked with got 'turned in' by someone who overheard him call an African-American guy I also worked with "Blackie." Guy's last name was "Black" and it was what everyone called him. ("My name's George, but my friends just call me "Blackie.")


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 12:45 AM

The pot calling the kettle black is a more elaborate way of saying "it takes one to know one." Instead it could be "the sink calling the bathtub white," for all that it matters. It's simply comparison and degree.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 07:00 AM

Bloody hell dick, "Welsh Rarebit" is about as perjorative as "Belgian Waffle" or "American Pie". Sheesh.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 07:26 AM

dick greenhaus quotes the case of a professor sacked for using the word "niggardly". Now, extreme Political Correctness is a fertile area for spawning Urban Myths. Dick, if you can produce convincing documentation for this story I will eat my hat, buy you a pint, donate a Boat Band CD to Mudcat, or perform any equivalent act of appropriate self-abasement.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 07:30 AM

Political correctness drive me round the bend. It has such a bad name in some quarters that the politically correct have decided to call it something else..politically conscience is now the new term for all these absurd little facisisms. Spare us ..pleeeeeeeaaase.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 10:38 AM

here is the incident I remember about 'niggardly'.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 10:44 AM

well..what happened to my link? I went back and looked, and it looks correct to me...trying again

http://www.adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 11:06 AM

Well.I'm not sure if I owe a pint or not yet. the professor didnt lose his job(as far as I can see). But the guy in the political job did have his resignation accepted...but it seems he was then offered the job back. how did the story finish?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 11:45 AM

Greg, don't be so niggardly - buy Dick a pint!

I love 'The mayor said that an internal review had "confirmed for me that Mr. Howard did use the word 'niggardly,' but did not use a racial epithet..."'.   INTERNAL REVIEW?! You mean somebody took a couple of minutes to look it up an a dictionary!


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 12:33 PM

OK Dick I'll be up the Greyhound in Penkhull tonight. come and claim it.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 12:34 PM

And you too, Jeri


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM

HA! So now you're assuming I drink? How BOOZIST of you!
I'd be there, but have to wash my hair, and the Concorde is in the shop for its 10,000,000 mile maintenance and some pin-striping work.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 07:23 PM

Like my Dad used to tell us kids:

"Quit whining or I'll give you something REAL to cry about..."


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Dec 03 - 02:53 PM

No need to stop at master/slave. Of course, 'server' has to be eliminated as well. And 'serve' 'deserve' 'preservative' 'conservative' and all other derivatives. They all come from the Latin word 'servus' (and the verb to it) which translates in one meaning as 'slave'.
Have there been any attempts yet to rename the Eurasian Slavs?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 07:48 AM

Why stop at Server?

We all surf, and that sounds like serf and that is a slave. Ergo. Non PC.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 09:14 AM

Some years ago, the League of American Wheelmen got caught up in the movement to remove "sexist" language...after all, Wheelmen implied that women were either unwelcome or second-class members. This was regardless of the historical fact that the League, in its early days (1890s), was a pioneer in the US in encouraging equal access and participation. So...they changed their name to the League of American Bicyclists. Funny thing, 'though...every year I send my check to "LAW" and every year they cash it.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 11:49 AM

I don't know what you folks in the US call the big black-coloured boards that teachers write on with chalk. In the UK we always called them blackboards; they are boards, and they are black. For some years they've been called "chalkboards". I think this coincided with the appearance in pubs of menus on boards painted with so-caled "blackboard paint", i.e. black with enough "tooth" for you write on with chalk.

(Sorry -- this is getting long-winded. Have I lost anyone?)

So ... in what way is it offensive to refer to something that is black in colour as "black"? I'm aware of the negative connotations when black is used metaphorically -- "black-hearted", etc. -- but there is NO such connotation where it's used literally. Didn't black people CHOOSE to be called "black" in preference to "coloured" and other words? They can hardly complain if we continue to use the word in its literal sense? I know my sister-in-law thinks it's all nonsense, anyway.

Viz magazine had a cartoon of a cowboy sitting in his living-room, while his wife was peering through the net curtains. She says, "Injuns movin' in across the road -- red as the ace o' diamonds!"

Steve (pink and modest about it)


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 12:13 PM

The One and Only Dai:

The dish is Welsh Rabbit, not "Welsh Rarebit".

It was indeed originally pejorative to a degree. The implication was that because of poverty the Welsh couldn't afford to buy a rabbit for dinner, and had invented this good cheese dish to substitute.

"Welsh Rarebit" is a sort of early PC avoidance.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 12:18 PM

Surely, in the days when it was common not to be able to afford to buy rabbit, any self-respecting Welshman would have had little trouble in i>catching one?


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

Here is what www.snopes.com has to say about it:

"For example, we've read of the 1999 incident in which a mayoral aide (temporarily) lost his job for using the word 'niggardly' in a staff meeting, even though the word's origins have nothing to do with race, and even though the aide used the word correctly (to mean 'miserly' or 'stingy')"


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 01:32 PM

Steve Parkes:

In those days, catching your own rabbit was poaching, and was worth a one-way ticket to Van Diemen's Land or Australia!


Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 11:17 PM

A large number of "blackboards" in Australian Educational Instituitions were painted Green, many years ago - for a better contrast, supposedly. Actually, less contrast, more visibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: sledge
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 01:38 AM

Dave, poaching as a way to enjoy a trip to down under has been highly overrated, percentage wise the figure transported for poaching was about the same as that for bestiality.

I got this from the excellent book The fatal shore by Robert Hughes.
Cue the sheep jokes I suppose.

Sledge


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 04:11 AM

Dave, I fear you may be labouring under something of a misapprehension. Or, in other words, spouting a load of cobblers.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 04:37 AM

All things considered, I'm surprised we're still allowed to have Blackboard Concerts!

jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 06:03 AM

As long as they're Green, JennyO...


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 07:06 AM

Yeah, but it's not easy being green (sounds like a good name for a song).


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 08:49 AM

Saw an item in a kiosk of cooking utensils and supplies in the mall yesterday...

Hunky Bill's Perogie Maker

I didn't know they still marketed them under that name, which always struck me as pretty non-PC. Maybe it's just me?...

Of course I had no idea that there actually was a Hunky Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 10:58 AM

Back in the McCarthy era (Joe, not Eugene), the catch phrase was "Don't say Left, say Lincoln"


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Subject: RE: BS: PC: New heights!
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 01:39 PM

Uncle_DaveO

If you add an egg boiled in water without the shell it is a buck rarebit. So you could say that even the "Wesh Rabbit" has been poached.

I'll get my coat........


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