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when does today become tomorrow

muppett 16 Oct 03 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 16 Oct 03 - 11:42 AM
VIN 16 Oct 03 - 11:44 AM
VIN 16 Oct 03 - 11:51 AM
The Fooles Troupe 16 Oct 03 - 11:55 AM
Snuffy 16 Oct 03 - 12:14 PM
Jeanie 16 Oct 03 - 12:15 PM
Amos 16 Oct 03 - 12:23 PM
Wolfgang 16 Oct 03 - 12:43 PM
Mrs.Duck 16 Oct 03 - 12:45 PM
Bill D 16 Oct 03 - 02:04 PM
artbrooks 16 Oct 03 - 04:13 PM
open mike 16 Oct 03 - 04:50 PM
PoppaGator 16 Oct 03 - 05:14 PM
Blowzabella 16 Oct 03 - 07:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 03 - 07:35 PM
artbrooks 16 Oct 03 - 07:48 PM
Jeri 16 Oct 03 - 07:51 PM
Bill D 16 Oct 03 - 07:53 PM
Jeri 16 Oct 03 - 08:05 PM
Amos 16 Oct 03 - 08:16 PM
Jeri 16 Oct 03 - 08:42 PM
Bill D 16 Oct 03 - 08:47 PM
Joybell 16 Oct 03 - 08:55 PM
Bill D 16 Oct 03 - 08:57 PM
Joybell 16 Oct 03 - 09:00 PM
Jeri 16 Oct 03 - 09:06 PM
Rustic Rebel 17 Oct 03 - 12:00 AM
Bill D 17 Oct 03 - 10:21 AM
Wilfried Schaum 17 Oct 03 - 11:09 AM
Beverley Barton 17 Oct 03 - 11:23 AM
Amos 17 Oct 03 - 11:49 AM
Mr Red 17 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 03 - 07:39 PM
Amos 17 Oct 03 - 07:49 PM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 03 - 08:32 PM
Deckman 17 Oct 03 - 08:34 PM
Gray D 17 Oct 03 - 09:10 PM
Rustic Rebel 18 Oct 03 - 01:07 AM
GUEST 18 Oct 03 - 02:23 AM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Oct 03 - 02:45 AM
JohnInKansas 18 Oct 03 - 04:57 AM
Mr Red 18 Oct 03 - 06:35 AM
Pied Piper 18 Oct 03 - 07:23 AM
EBarnacle1 18 Oct 03 - 12:32 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 03 - 03:30 PM
JohnInKansas 18 Oct 03 - 03:34 PM
rock chick 18 Oct 03 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 18 Oct 03 - 05:00 PM
Wilfried Schaum 19 Oct 03 - 10:33 AM
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Subject: when does today become tomorrow
From: muppett
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 11:40 AM

Here's a situation I'm sure many of you have been in, but what's the answer, You're up after midnight and you eventually decide to go to bed and you say 'see yer tomorrow' well when does it become tomorrow, when you next wake up or when it passes midnight again?


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 11:42 AM

Check your TV Guide.

Here's something even better to ponder.

Why do people say they are going to take a sh*t, when in reality, they leave one?


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: VIN
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 11:44 AM

Who was it that said t'morrer never comes?


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: VIN
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 11:51 AM

In fact it reminds me of the song,
'yesterday, all me troubles seemed s'far away,
now it looks as though they're ere to stay,
so i reckon t'day, must be yesterday, nyaaaaa'.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 11:55 AM

To Morrow

Robin


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 12:14 PM

Tomorrow starts when you wake up ........

Or if you haven't slept, when everyone else wakes up.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Jeanie
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 12:15 PM

It would be much simpler all round if we followed the example of earlier traditions and saw sunset and sunrise as the changeover times from one day to the next. The early English did this: At sundown of Tiw's day (Tiwesdæg), Tuesday became "Woden's Eve" (Wodnesniht). At sunrise, "Woden's Eve" became "Woden's day" (Wodnesdæg)... then came "Thunor's Eve" (Ðunresniht) and so on. I rather like this; keeps people in touch with the natural world, instead of artificial timekeeping. You get to 'hibernate' properly and naturally in the winter, too.

- jeanie


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 12:23 PM

Well, the short answer to the thread is "Never". Today is today. There is in fact no such place as tomorrow except as an abstract construction. At least, it is a highly amorphous sheaf of possibilities if it exists.

A


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 12:43 PM

One timekeeping is as natural as the other. Both use the earth day as a unit (instead of something artificial) they only use a different starting point in the ever repeating cycles. There is nothing unnatural about using a different starting point. Similar in the year. We use the natural year as a unit, most other cultures only have different starting points (like, for instance, spring).

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 12:45 PM

OK you got that Muppett? Next time you're up until 4am singing just tell everyone you'll see them in a highly amorphous sheaf of possibilities! Sounds like your average folk festival!!!


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 02:04 PM

William solved this in his "Pragmatism"...he tells the story of several men out camping when they saw a squirrel on a tree. They tried to get a better look, but the squirrel kept moving to keep the tree between himself and the men, so they fell to arguing whether they were walking "around" the squirrel or not, since the squirrel was always facing them.

One man (the Philosopher)came in late and told them simply that there IS no absolute answer, but it simple depended on a decision to adopt a common definition. If you all decide to mean by "around", being first to the north of the squirrel, then to the other directions, then the answer is yes, you were going around the squirrel (that is, the tree was the referent). If, however, you mean getting to the place you can see the squirrel's back, then the answer is 'no'. That sort of issue, which the 'time' question falls under, is a Pragmatic solution.

If you can't DECIDE, see the Existentialism thread..


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 04:13 PM

And, for that matter, why does time go from 11 P.M. (post meridian, or after noon)...ok, so its 11 hours after noon...to 12 A.M. (anti-meridian, before noon)...so then, that would be 12 hours before noon, I'll go along with that...to 1 A.M! One hour before noon? I don't think so! And then noon is 12 P.M.---12 hours before itself? No wonder kids have such trouble learning to tell time!!!


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: open mike
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 04:50 PM

in the next second after 11:59:59 p.m.
or 23:59:59----at 00:00:00 hours that is
when the days change from yesterday to tomorrow
or rather from today to tomorrow..
in other words it really never gets to be 24:00
or twenty four hundred hours...


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 05:14 PM

I always thought that both noon and midnight are *neither* am nor pm, and I contend that correct usage demands employment of the word "noon" or "midnight," without any suffix, instead of the number "12" (with either suffix).

I would contend that "12 am" and "12 pm" constitute incorrect use of language, and have observed that those who use these constructions do not use them consistently (i.e, "12 am" could mean *either* noon or midnight, depending upon the source).

Insofar as the "m" in "am/pm" stands for "meridian," meaning "noon," noon itself cannot be 12 hours before itself (ante meridian) or after itself (post meridian). Midnight, on the other hand, is *both* 12 hours before *and* 12 hours after noon.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Blowzabella
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:34 PM

I'm with you on that one PoppaGator - and i congratulate myself for having understood it - at this time of night - or, as it is 12.33am, is it tomorrow yet?


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:35 PM

In Groundhog Day, staying up past midnight didn't work - the day lasted as long as he was awake and alive, and began again when he woke up again. The same day in this case. This seems more logical than worrying about clocks.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:48 PM

My reerence for midnight being 12 A.M. is the New York Public Library "Desk Reference." I'd be very happy to see an authoritative source of alternative information.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:51 PM

No matter when you go, then you are. Uh...
It's probably just easier to say 'later'.

Bill, of course they're going around the damned squirrel. If you're on a merry-go-round, you're going around the pole in the center whether it rotates with you or not. You are circumnavigating the pole and the squirrel. It doesn't matter if he's staring at you the whole time. If they had gone around in different directions, SOMEbody would have seen the squirrel's back. Does that mean that some of them were going around the squirrel and some weren't? Whether or not you go around something shouldn't have anything to do with whether it has a face or not.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:53 PM

the beginning of my post should say "William JAMES", but it's not relevant, 'cause you all would rather split them hairs that have a neat, pragmatic solution ;>)


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:05 PM

Hey, I'm not splitting hares, it was James who was splitting squirrels!

Now somebody explain why 12AM isn't 12PM! On the 24-hour clock, it's 2400, which is the END of the day. After that is tomorrow. When we go to the AM/PM system it's 12AM, or the START of the day - with an awfully large number for a beginning!


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:16 PM

Nononono, Jeri!! It's 00:00:00.001 which is the first split second of the next day -- but don't call it tomorrow -- too late!! :>) Well some call it 12:00:00.001...dunno why.



A


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:42 PM

Yep, Amos, that's pretty much what I said. (24:00 was the END of the day.) My brain hurts...


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:47 PM

(crossed posts, Jeri)...all I was saying was that Will James was showing how we equivocate on what we mean by various words. If someone decides HE means that 'around' means seeing the squirrel's back, what are we to say? The question might have been have been ASKED better, and there was no doubt they went 'around' the tree...but the point is that there are all sorts of situations where hooman beans DO this kind of bickering...as in "is that song REALLY 'traditional'?" I have my opinion, but seems to me I vaguely remember differences of opinion.

How old is 'old'? My kid thinks it is anythink past 30...the AARP starts chasing you at 55...the Feds have 62½, or 65 for various purposes...I choose to think it begins when I can no longer cut the mustard..*grin*

'Ol Will James didn't solve everything, as Philosophers simply would never be happy with dull old pragmatism, but it is well not to miss his point.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:55 PM

The clue is in your name, muppett! I've seen the Muppetts do their routine at the train station and heard them sing "The Train To Morrow" I remember that it all boils down to the fact that you can't catch a train to Morrow because it's already half-way on its way. Scary!


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:57 PM

oh...BTW..." If they had gone around in different directions, SOMEbody would have seen the squirrel's back" yes, but EACH man would have to be considered individually...and each had different opinions of the language.

(me? Tomorrow is anytime past midnight...and 'morning' is as soon as I can see that the second hand has clear the 12 on the clock! Or whenever I wake up after sleeping...depending on who I'm arguing with....)


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 09:00 PM

It's already tomorrow here! It's a lovely day. You'll like it.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 09:06 PM

I'm just being argumentative because I'm in that sort of mood, but I just didn't think it was that good of an example. I'll stop now. The time argument DOES work for me because, for me, it seems to be more about perception. If it's 1:00 AM and I tell someone "I'll talk to you tomorrow," I don't think there's any chance I'll be misunderstood. I might be corrected, but not misunderstood - unless I'm on the phone to someone in a place where it's, say, 7:00 AM.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 12:00 AM

After midnight I found myself philosophing about a squirrel that does't know if it is today, that made him want to collect pine nuts or tommorrow that made him need pine nuts. I just figured that the squirrel is a funny, little, solemn creature that let's it young go at an unnatural age, therefore it has no training, in growing to really know the answer.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 10:21 AM

if an existentialist squirrel went 'round a tree at midnight in the forest, and found no pine nuts, would he look again today? or tomorrow? and could all the pragmatists dance on the head of a pin?


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 11:09 AM

pedant alert - not meridian (that's a theoretical line touching all places with noon at the same time)!
am = ante meridiem = before noon
pm = post meridiem = after noon
m = meridies = the middle of the day = high noon : draw your guns!

If you have problems with tomorrow, use the tactical time (time zone Zulu):
Retraite will be signalled at 182300 z oct 03 (today at 10 pm over here) and Reveille at 200645 z oct 03 (tomorrow at 5:45 am, in the bloody morning).

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Beverley Barton
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 11:23 AM

muppet, it sounds to me like you've too much time on your hands!
                     el autentico caminar!


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 11:49 AM

Wilfred:

I think usage has transcended your pedantry. The American Heritage dictionary says:

antemeridian

SYLLABICATION: an·te·me·rid·i·an
PRONUNCIATION:   nt-m-rd-n
ADJECTIVE: Of, relating to, or taking place in the morning.
ETYMOLOGY: Latin antemerdinus : ante-, ante- + merdinus, of noon; see meridian.

The meridian is the elevation of the sun at local noon. So the usage is perfectly sensible.

A


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM

Er ---- today becomes next week about two weeks before the pay cheque comes.

Call me a pedant but usage dictates that 12 noon is the am pm boundary but during daylight saving time can we in all honesty call it a meridian?
Unless we are invoking the coriolis rule when time aims for mid-day and by the time it gets there the earth has moved so we get dizzy in the afternoon thinking about when it would have been if we had started just a few minutes before midnight so as to arrive at the plughole exactly at dinnertime.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 07:39 PM

Tomorrow starts at dawn. However, when it does it suddenly, miraculously ceases being tomorrow and becomes today. Thus tomorrow can never actually be experienced, only anticipated, just as yesterday can only be remembered. So there really is only now...at any given time.

This means one can plan for the not-real while experiencing the real and waiting for the not-real to become real.

Very neat system, I think.

Martin - I too have always been puzzled as to why people speak of "taking" a shit or "taking" a leak when in fact they do the exact opposite. Then too, people "take a fit", don't they? At least that's what they say they do... We need to establish a national committee to analyze misuses of the word "take", and get to the bottom of this at once!

Take the extreme case of the man who says he "doesn't give a shit" and then in the same breath says "I gotta take a shit" as he slouches off to the restroom. This is clearly a man who has so much of the brown stuff between his ears that he can't think straight! His life is a walking contradiction. Dogs and angels laugh as he passes by, and (most) women regard him with amused disdain, barely tolerating his inane comments.

It's an epidemic in places like Lubbock, Texas, I hear...

- LH


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 07:49 PM

Well, I'd say it happens a good long time before dawn, which is defined by the arrival of light, I guess, and otherwise doesn't mean much. If you take my meaning, LH.

As for dogs and angels, I think neither as judgmental as you describe. It takes great courage to sustain contradiction without flinching, especially while on the way to the can. Something to keep in mind when that subtle feeling of metaphysical superiority overtakes you and you realize that you, too, will need to take a shit somewhere.


A

(And a beautiful turn of phrase it is, too for all of that!)


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:32 PM

Ha! Ha! Good stuff, Amos. Yeah, I guess the new day really gets started sometime in the wee hours of the morning, and that's why people in ashrams usually get up at 4:00 or 5:00 AM. It just becomes official when the sun rises, that's all. I've been told (by people who definitely are in a position to know) that the best time to meditate is very early in the morning while things are still very quiet and dark outside.

I was just kidding about the dogs and angels.

- LH


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:34 PM

Foolestroupe ... I appreciate your posting of the words for "Tomorrow." I well remember the night that Bob Gibson sat down and tried to teach me that song. It's still one of my most forgettable songs: there's a joke there if you look hard enough.

To add something new to this thread: My late and WONDERFUL Father used to say the following phrase to us carpenters when we arrived (late) for work each morning ... "Today is the day we were going to do such a hell of a lot about yesterday!" CHEERS, Bob


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Gray D
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 09:10 PM

Erm . . . why do so many of you keep referring to midnight as a definitive boundary? Wherever you are on the planet it happens at a different . . . er . . . time. I stay up all night sometimes and I've never thought of myself as living tomorrow.

Amos nailed it. You live now; tomorrow is a concept not a reality, as those of you who die in your sleep tonight (whenever that is) won't find.

My brain hurts . . .

Gray D


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 01:07 AM

I agree with you 100% Gray D.

my brain hurts too.
Come on Little Hawk, were you really kidding about the angels and dogs? I thought that was a nice touch.
Now back to the squirrel thing... Does it really matter to the squirrel if it's today or tommorrow as long as it got all it's nuts in the hole yesterday?
Rustic
Amos- you are the fun man aren't you?


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 02:23 AM

Today never becomes tomorrow. It becomes yesterday.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 02:45 AM

The Anonymous GUEST has hit the nail on the head.
"Today never becomes tomorrow. It becomes yesterday."

"There be Wisdom in the Words of A Fool"
THE AUTHOR

A sage saying, not a personal attack GUEST!

Robin


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 04:57 AM

Re squirrels:

In my neighborhood, everybody knows that if you stand real quiet and throw a stick so it lands on the other side of the tree, the squirrel will come around where you can shoot the little sucker and then have squirrel soup. (actually seldom done, 'cause squirrels don't make very good soup.)

An alternative would be to have all but one of the group shut up (maybe an impossible condition), while one person walks to the other side of the tree. The squirrel will come around so that all the rest of them can see him - until one of them moves - at which time the other guy will get a look. (squirrels are really pretty dumb.)

The example is more appropriately used in the context of how a group of people will stick together in following an unproductive activity - as a group, when there are productive solutions available that require independent action on the part of one or more individual members of the group.(?)

(Although the intended illustration was apt, and clear)

John


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 06:35 AM

JohnInKansas

I think your group will get smaller after each squirrel because the "one" is gonna be in the line of fire of at least one of the others.

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Pied Piper
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 07:23 AM

I think we need a new category of discussion, D for Drivel.
PP


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 12:32 PM

The next question in this thread clearly is: If midnight comes from "the middle of the night," where does "noon" come from?

As mentioned above, when you awaken, it is today. So where did tomorrow go?


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 03:30 PM

Squirrels are dumb??? Ever seen how people act in heavy traffic? I think the squirrels are way ahead... No squirrel has ever made a contribution to either the Republican or Democratic parties, and male squirrels live alone, just visiting the females now and then, and get to sleep in comfort through the bad winter weather, snug inside their little leafy bachelor pads. Squirrels are smart!

It's fun going around and around a tree trunk and causing the squirrel to go around and around as well. For all I know, it may be just as much fun for the squirrel.

- LH


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 03:34 PM

Mr Red -

I suppose I should have clarified that you'd use the stick method in a shooting party. The original premise was that the group merely wanted to see the squirrel, in which case sending one of the group out to the other side of the tree would be fairly safe. Although if the group couln't come up with that idea, a loner might get lost...

John


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: rock chick
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 04:51 PM

Tomorrow never comes, its comes as today and becomes yesterday, so to speak

rc


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 05:00 PM

I'll tell ya when today becomes tomorow eh? Today becomse tomororw TOMORROW! Thats when. Geez! Whatta buncha losers!!!

Ya dont' have to be a flippin scyentist to figger this one out eh?


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Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 10:33 AM

No, as we have read, tomorrow tomorrow will be today and today will be yesterday tomorrow.
Therefore the transit from one day to the next is put at midnight sharp, when every godfearing citizen is sound asleep in his bed and hasn't to worry about this question rising up so early in the morn.

Wilfried


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