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BS: Benefits/Welfare.

McGrath of Harlow 13 Apr 13 - 04:11 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Apr 13 - 12:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Apr 13 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,Frug 10 Apr 13 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,Frug 10 Apr 13 - 05:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Apr 13 - 04:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Apr 13 - 02:27 PM
akenaton 10 Apr 13 - 11:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Apr 13 - 04:33 AM
akenaton 09 Apr 13 - 03:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM
banjoman 09 Apr 13 - 11:42 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Apr 13 - 11:34 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Apr 13 - 10:25 AM
banjoman 07 Apr 13 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 07 Apr 13 - 07:48 AM
redhorse 19 Nov 11 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 19 Nov 11 - 03:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Oct 03 - 03:41 PM
Ebbie 30 Oct 03 - 03:07 PM
Forum Lurker 29 Oct 03 - 09:53 PM
Ebbie 29 Oct 03 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,Ely at mom's 16 Oct 03 - 08:04 PM
akenaton 16 Oct 03 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,Marta 16 Oct 03 - 03:57 PM
Don Firth 16 Oct 03 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,petr 16 Oct 03 - 12:43 PM
Bobert 16 Oct 03 - 08:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 03 - 06:36 AM
Don Firth 15 Oct 03 - 11:38 PM
Bobert 15 Oct 03 - 09:55 PM
GUEST,petr 15 Oct 03 - 09:11 PM
Bobert 15 Oct 03 - 07:45 PM
akenaton 15 Oct 03 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Marta 15 Oct 03 - 04:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Oct 03 - 10:49 AM
Mickey191 15 Oct 03 - 10:36 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 03 - 10:32 AM
katlaughing 15 Oct 03 - 10:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Oct 03 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,booter 15 Oct 03 - 08:02 AM
Bobert 14 Oct 03 - 07:45 PM
akenaton 14 Oct 03 - 05:57 PM
John Hardly 14 Oct 03 - 05:28 PM
katlaughing 14 Oct 03 - 04:40 PM
Forum Lurker 14 Oct 03 - 04:18 PM
John Hardly 14 Oct 03 - 02:41 PM
GUEST 14 Oct 03 - 02:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Oct 03 - 05:45 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 04:11 AM

But that's not where the focus of media attention is - or I suspect of the work of the people employed to crack down on fraud. And that isn't the kind of thing that is targetted in the advertising campaigns, or in stuff like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 12:28 PM

I suggest you do a little more research McG, with particular reference to the number of cases of multiple false identity cases involving not thousands, but millions of pounds fiddled. This is an organised crime situation swimming just below the surface of what are a mix of a few small fiddles and many genuine claims, and it's reaching epidemic proportions in some areas.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM

Of course they have to be made illegal before they can be prosecuted. That's why the priority is to change the law to make them illegal, which should have been done long ago. It is reasonable to be suspicious about why that is the case.

Doing stuff about the far far smaller problem of benefit fiddling is not top priority. It's used as a way of diverting attention from sorting out the big players. That's not a way of saying things like that should be ignored, but they shouldn't be blown out of proportion. The evidence is that the level of fraud is surprisingly low - and the proportion of cases where the appeal process show that an accusation of fraud was wrong is surprisingly high.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 10:41 AM

Small thefts should be ignored while people with a real need go short eh?

As long as the rich get a good bashing!

As to the ridiculous comment about tax avoidance schemes, until they are made illegal, they cannot be prosecuted.

That's the LAW, like it or not, and without an act of Parliament, or a change in the tax structure it will remain so.

The government should, in fact must, change either law or system as a matter of urgency, but until they do, they cannot prosecute, except in cases of evasion.

But don't tell me that they shouldn't go after the bottom end thieves as well, because that is a growing problem.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 07:04 PM

Just a snippet but a well written, attributed and referenced piece on one particular aspect of the welfare debate. kinda puts the other one in the shade I feel.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/immigration_and_benefits-28846


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 05:32 PM

Difficult to give any credence to a site which has no authorship nor any indication of where those figures come from .... not convincing looks like one of those we hate everyone sites !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:44 PM

The official figures included in that demonstrate that the level of fraud is proportionately pretty small. The "cautious adjustments" suggested which are claimed to indicate they are significantly larger appear to be picked out of the air - notably "25%" of disability payment claims" are asserted to be fraudulent. "National Fraud Initiative" sounds like a pretty accurate term for people makinb up figures in that way.

And of course there is no attempt to balance these against the claims which don't get made because people are ignorant or ashamed, or the cases where claims are turned down wrongly.

As for tax fiddles - legal loopholes are only there because the laws are written that way. Artificial schemes which are clearly only there to save tax are tolerated - the onus for proving they are justifiable for other reasons ought to lie with the people using such schemes, not the other way round. And any attempt to set up such schemes should be prosecuted and penalised as a criminal conspiracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 02:27 PM

Some interesting reading for those who think benefit fraud is not prevalent enough to be worth pursuing.

The page on prosecutions is an eye opener.

So is the conclusion.

And yes! Equally important is first to hunt down and jail Tax Evaders, and then to remove the loopholes that make legal Tax Avoidance possible, so that Avoiders too may be jailed if they don't stop as soon as the law changes.

Unfortunately, there is no way currently to prosecute anyone taking advantage of a legal loophole.

What is absolurely indefensible is to blame either the rich or the poor exclusively. A thief is a thief, and all need to be dealt with equally, and severely.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 11:55 AM

As long as our worth is weighed in pounds and pence we will never know happiness or fulfillment in life.
We still expect to be cared for from cradle to grave, even when the money has gone EAST.

Did we really think the "good times" could last for ever.....do we have anything to think with?
I despair of what we have given our kids, a worthless glitzy culture,
celebrity lifestyles to aspire to, family and tribe wrecked and replaced by a media driven sexual circus.
Do you think making people a few pounds a week better off is going to fix that?
You know they give with one hand and take with the other.

Grrrr......Sorry Mr McG


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:33 AM

Yet again the suggestion that typical benefits are paid to people who are skiving off. But most people receiving benefits are in fact either in low paid work, or unable to work because of their circumstances, mostly because of real disabilities.

They've decided on a level of cuts they wish to impose, specifically a massive percentage of cuts on help for people with disabilities, in advance of knowing what the actual circumstances are. The result isn't going to be people going out to work and their lives getting better. It's going to be their continuing to be forced to live on benefits, but in greater poverty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 03:21 PM

People need some stimulation in life.....life on benefits is very baqd for your health.

Just take a look at the people who turn up on "reality TV"...and their kids.
Our population is being systematically dumbed down by the media and subsidised by a Capitalist govt in the cheapest way possible.
Big brother really IS the TV in the corner and the financial squeeze is on.....we have become so weak and compliant that they can do with us what they will, while they give us "equality and rights" tied up in a lovely pink bow.....we dont really deserve any better...do we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM

There are indeed some freeloaders in society who, in bonzo's words " have never worked or made any effort to find work". Most of them are at the top end of society. People of welfare benefits are ovewhelmingly pensioners or people in low paid employment.

Unemployed people are predominently people who have worked and been paid off, together with people with real disabilities whch make paid work impossible. The vast majority of those who have never worked are young people who have been unable to find employment, typically after spending time on compulsory unpaid placements.

The facts are simple enough, but need a minimal effort to find out. The lies are even simpler enough, and laid out every day by those who want s to believe them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: banjoman
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 11:42 AM

Well said Steve - I paid national insurance and taxes for over 50 years and only claimed unemployment benefit for a short while after my job was declared redundant. (I blame Thatcher for that as I was at the time a full time union official) I now, approaching 70, have no guilt about claiming DLA and driving my Motability Car as I believe I have more than paid for them. I would gladly swap my pain and discomfort (and the car) with some of those who call me a scrounger, in exchange for their good health and a job which I could go to every day.
I have no doubt that there are a small number of benefit cheats, but suggest that no matter what system was introduced the situation would be the same..
In the 1960's I worked for the National Assistance Board which then became the Ministry of Social Security, and could write a book on how devious, and clever, a small minority of those people were in working the system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 11:34 AM

Figures show that 31% of the population is claiming either Disability Living Allowance, incapacity benefit or Motorbilty. All of these people are now being reassessed and by 2014, the number of false claimants will be weeded out.

Hmmm. Well I'm one of those false claimants who've been weeded out (don't worry, my appeal is in). I virtually had to come downstairs on my backside to get to my computer to respond to this. My leg pains are so severe that I'm desperately trying to get myself fast-tracked for the back surgery I'm already on the waiting list for. Perhaps you'd better dig a little deeper into reality before you post such rubbish. While you're at it, tell us what you think of call-me-Dave's inability to fix the annual £120 billion tax avoidance by wealthy people and major corporations who use accountants to put their affairs offshore, etc., or of the millionaires' tax cut that has come in this week.

Incidentally, you do not "claim" Motability (note spelling). You opt to commute your higher rate mobility component of disability living allowance into a car lease. That is a benefit obtained only by severely disabled people. Motability is not, as often portrayed by its critics, a scheme to give disabled people "free cars".


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 10:25 AM

And the definition of a Labour government - builder of the largest deficit and debt in history. Of course these benefit scroungers must be weeded out. Most have never worked or made any effort to find work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: banjoman
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 07:49 AM

I certainly dont salute him or his cronies. Please get your facts right before making rubbish statements.
Its a fact that almost 3/4 of the welfare budget is paid to pensioners and people who are in work. Most pensioners have contributed over a life time to provide some support in old age. What is National Insurance if it cant do that?
This government is currently giving the most wealthy in this society a huge pay rise thro tax reduction. I ask is that fair.
It has long been a Tory principle to blame the weakest in society for all our ills. It was the Tory Bankers who brought this country to its knees.
I suggest you look up the meaning of the word Tory - it means Robber/Thief -- enough said


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 07:48 AM

Fascinating old debate. Notwithstanding the polarised opinion above which I am sure was designed to be provocative, the original thrust of this thread adds potty to nasty.

Welfare is a mark of civilisation seeing the overall benefits of group altruism. Whether it is a tool of oppression depends on how mentally disturbed you are when you push such tosh in debate. Funny thing paranoia. .

It can be used as a tool but it isn't a tool per se. It is a bit of an insult for those relying onbenefits to say they are indulging in some big brother population control. For most, it is the thing that keeps them alive. High brow debate over sinister ideology is almost as bad as the misguided targeting this government is aiming.   Quiet man indeed. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: redhorse
Date: 19 Nov 11 - 08:20 AM

"independent" as in Atos, presumably


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 19 Nov 11 - 03:11 AM

Some good news to start the weekend off. Doctors will no longer be able to issue sick notes for workers who are on long-term leave from their jobs.

The Government review has recommended that family GPs still certify up to four weeks of absence but employers will be able to refer those off sick for longer than this to an independent panel of doctors.

The review rightly suggests setting up a service to help those on sick leave find more appropriate jobs.

According to the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP), around 140 million working days are lost to sickness absence each year.
While most people return to work, every year 300,000 people drop out of work onto health-related state benefits.

This places an economic burden on employers, taxpayers and the individuals themselves.
DWP says each year employers spend around £9bn on sick pay, while health-related benefits cost taxpayers £13bn.
Reforms are expected within the benefit system and to the Employment and Support Allowance.

Earlier this year the Government asked Dame Carol Black and David Frost to lead a review of sickness absence in Great Britain, to examine if long-term sickness absence could be reduced to prevent people from dropping needlessly out of the labour market.

If all the recommendations are accepted it could save £400m a year for employers and £300m a year for the Government, while boosting economic output by over £1bn a year.

The economy loses £15bn in lost economic output each year due to sickness absence.

Once the government has dealt with this shower, they will look at benefits given to the "teen mum brigade" young women who deliberately touch their toes for some irresponsible layabout in order to get a free party house and an over generous weekly handout for their flock of fatherless brats commonly referred to by them as "beer tokens".


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 03:41 PM

Funny the difference a nought can make, when it looks like just a nothing.

The concept of a basic income would be that it applied to everyone, not just to unemployed people. That's mean the differential was built in to start with. So in the case Ebbie mentioned, the person getting $40 dollars and hour would be getting $40 plus the $10 an hour the unemployed person was getting.

There would be an inflation effect - but it should be a one-off, rather than continuing. Rather the way the shift to decimal currency here had a one-off inflation effect. And the basic income would need to be inflation-proofed in any case.

If some time a scheme along these lines can get tried out somewhere, it'll be very interesting to see how it works out. Mind, I suspect that all hell would break loose with sanctions and all. If it worked out well a lot of people and organisations would feel very threatened by it - "the danger of a good example" - so they'd feel obligated to ensure that it didn't work out well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 03:07 PM

Forum Lurker, I hope you don't think that I suggested $200000?


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 09:53 PM

If everyone gets 200000 annually, not just the unemployed, that may ameliorate the problem. If the $40/hour you get is earmarked for luxuries, you've got a lot of luxuries, which is a strong motivator in our society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 09:08 PM

A guaranteed basic income for everyone wouldn't necessarily do what it was designed to do. Say that each household received $20000 annually, meant to provide housing, food and childcare, freeing up the adults to go out to work to better their lifestyle.

I suspect that very quickly an inflationary spiral would spin everything into chaos. There seems to be a rule that one's income at certain trades and in certain unions must be X amount of dollars higher than that of others. For instance, a union worker who makes $40.00 per hour will probably not be happy at the notion that someone "non-productive" is getting the equivalent of $10.00 an hour and will demand renegotiation of their contract. The same thing with the person who is now making minimum wage- that too would have to be ramped upward.

Eventually the guaranteed income might provide housing, when it's available, and not much else. If you get $25 a day guaranteed to you but the $25 buys only a package of hamburger with no buns... It doesn't seem that there would be an end to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,Ely at mom's
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:04 PM

I agree with McGrath, too. At least in the materialistic US of A, there is ALWAYS something else that we think we need that makes us want to earn more. The problem with low-paying jobs--and mine is among them--is that I have to work so many hours to make what little I do that I'm literally too tired to do anything else. I need to go back to school but if I take days off for class (my boss doesn't let us do half-days) then I can't get by, and if I don't, I work so many hours I can't make it to labs, tutorial sessions, etc.

I make well above the minimum wage, and Houston is not an expensive area (especially for a big city), and I am not a profligate spender, but I still can't afford my own place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 04:23 PM

Well said Marta......Hit the nail right on the head.....
         You're a cracker when you're angry...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,Marta
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 03:57 PM

I was brought up in the era of scroungers. You know why ? Cos Thatcher and her mates cast us aside and we had no opportunities. So while I did go out to work for minimum wages I have loads of pals that gave up and they have done very little work in their lives. They were meant to follow that path. It was no accident.

I hate all that " I bettered myself talk". I didn't " better myself". I haven't changed, but I moved abroad and I have had opportunities that I would never have had as a daft wee Glasgow lassie. If I had stayed in Glasgow I would no doubt be one of those "scroungers" because the best jobs my mates can get are call centre jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 02:07 PM

. . . and dont have luxury of taking most of the year off.

Not too realistic.

A good friend of mine (and a fine singer of folk songs) was a teacher. He was constantly running into people who would say something like, "Gee, it must be really great to be a teacher. You get a three-month vacation every summer."

My friend said that considering the minuscule salaries that teachers get, it was more like a three-month layoff every year.

Maybe he could have been a teacher during the school year and an actor during the summer months. . . .

I agree with McGrath. One can always find instances here and there of people, or even certain groups of people, skating by on whatever dole they might receive, but oftentimes, if you look into their circumstances and past experiences, you can easily discover that because of barriers put before them by government and by society, there isn't a lot else they can do. Calling on my own my experiences, most people I know who are receiving unemployment insurance are avidly looking for jobs, those who are working for minimum wage are looking for better jobs, and everyone I've ever met who was on welfare hated it.

No, I take that back. There is one woman of my acquaintance who is very happy about her monthly check. She also lives in subsidized housing (she pays 30% of her income), most of her medical bills are taken care of by Medicare (less deductions and co-pays), and her monthly check comes from Social Security Disability Insurance (about $600 a month). She is developmentally disabled and is simply unable to work. Her monthly stipend is barely enough to cover her basic expenses, and were it not for her having lunch three times a week at a local church's free lunch program, she wouldn't eat very well. Her one luxury is an old 13" television set that someone gave her. I, for one, don't begrudge her one penny of her monthly stipend. It should be more.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 12:43 PM

France just had an actors strike, mainly because most of the work is for 2-3 months in the summer and the rest of the year they collect unemployment benefits (what, they havent heard of waiting on tables?)
the main opposition came from other Unions whose members are the ones that pay into the system and dont have luxury of taking most of the year off.
sure its obscene that the guy in the stock exchange makes millions -
(none of which is taxpayer money, by the way)
(I run a company and I personally think that corporations should be styled after the cooperatives - with certain rules ie. the highest paid employee get no more than say 5 times the salary of the lowest, etc, - but thats beside the point.) Incidentally I make pretty much the same as the rest of my employees.

I totally disagree with Mcgraths comments above 'A modest basic income still leaves plenty of motivation to earn enough money..'
looking at first nations people in Canada, its only when theyve been given control over their own affairs that they improve their lives-
decades of govt. basic income and housing has done the opposite to their motivation.
Saudi Arabia is a perfect example of such a welfare state, 70% of the work is done either by skilled foreign workers that the Saudis cant do, and the rest by unskilled foreigners that Saudis dont want do to.
where does that leave the rest of the population?


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:42 AM

Well, Don, 'round these parts (Washington, D.C. area) most folks can find work that will pay 'em $100 a day. But the average rents are so high that after payin' the rent yer broke! All one is doing is workin' to keep the landlord fat... In Loudoun County, Va., the average rent is around $1800 a month... There are lots of folks livin' in their cars... And these are the folks who can't get laons to purchase houses and if they could, there ain't no affordable housing to be found.... The average price for a home is pushing $300,000 in the D.C. area! Crazy...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 06:36 AM

A modest basic income still leaves plenty of motivation to earn enough money to allow you to get the things you otherwise couldn't afford. And there are often other rewards for work as well, over and above the money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:38 PM

$100.00 a day! Not bad! Not bad at all! Except on the occasional evenings when I was concertizing, I've never earned that much in any one day. The last job I worked (technical writer for the Bonneville Power Association) I made about $85.00 a day gross (before deductions).

The minimum wage in Washington State right now is $7.01 per hour. On January 1st, 2004, Washington's minimum wage will go up to $7.16 per hour, making it the highest minimum wage in the country. Counting it up on my fingers and toes, that works out to $57.20 per eight-hour day, $286.00 per five-day week. That's $14,872.00 per year. That divides up into about $1240.00 per month. All those figures are before taxes and deductions, incidentally.

A cursory inspection of the current real estate listings in Seattle show that it is pretty difficult to find an unfurnished one-bedroom apartment in greater Seattle (i.e., including a sampling of some lower cost suburban areas) for under around $750.00 per month. $1,000 to $2,500 and up are not that difficult to find.

I've been told that Seattle is considered kinda pricy. But I also understand that it's nowhere near as pricy as some.

This probably accounts for a lot of the people who are employed, but are still sleeping in their cars—if they still have cars.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 09:55 PM

Heck, petr, we got a guy making $140M a year runnin' the New York Stock Exchange, which makes about $750,000 a day worked, then you got folks wakin' up at 4:00 in the mornin', getting in their cars and commutin' 70 miles to to do construction work for $100 a day. Go figure!?!?!?!?!......

Then you have folks who have lost their cushy $100 a day jobs and can't find other cushy $100 a day jobs and are now gettin' unemployment at about $50 a day.... Problem is that their rent is $1000 a month?!?!?!?!?..... Hmmmmmmm??????...........

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 09:11 PM

I have no problem with helping out those who need it.
I do however with those who choose to live that way and theres plenty that do.
The simple argument against a basic guaranteed income is that enough people collecting it without working doesnt leave many who will pay for it. (and dont forget that most of the western economies are heavily in debt from past overspending -)
and here in canada there isnt a huge amount spent on the military.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 07:45 PM

Well, McGrath, you've hit the nail square on the head... Yep, it it very much a system that rewards Bush's supporters financially while drastically reducing the money availbale for domestic programs. Then one day, Bush and Co. will have all the money, the American worker will be out of work and Bush will just throw up his hands and say, "Hey, sorry pal, we're broke!"

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 05:44 PM

Thank Christ for Christmas Marta,I thoght I was all alone among these Yanks ,and then you come riding in at the heid o the cavalry
Its good to have a friend ,even if its a Glesca Keelie
            Best Wishes Ake..


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,Marta
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 04:54 PM

Akenaton; I get it !

We pay a little bit in taxes every month so that a lot of people can be kept on the poverty line, and will be called upon to work if us richer folks require them to do so. Meanwhile rich folks pay relatively little in taxes and often invest their profits in other countries, but nobody complains about them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 10:49 AM

"Charity only begins at home" would maybe have a better ring to it.

And the money being recycled via Iraq to Bush's spnsors at home who are creaming off the contracts don't count as any kind of charity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Mickey191
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 10:36 AM

A Priest was arrested last week in one of the N.Y. city borroughs, for making threatening phone calls to another priest. When the police arrested him he had, among many disgusting items, $100,000. in cash. He said it was his 401K plan for his retirement. He didn't want to have collect welfare in his old age, so he'd been dipping into the collection plate for years. Isn't that special?

I wonder how many people, thru hardship, gave a weekly contribution to the Church, I also wonder how the hell they feel now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 10:32 AM

earlier I raised the issue of who has a right to community benevolence. I agree with forum lurker that we are obliged to assist those in need. But are we obliged to assist those who see benefits as a right or as an income supplement program.
   I think there is much abuse of the system and the abuse robs everyone, especially the needy. I am always confused by this because I know people need help..how do we determine who they are ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 10:05 AM

Well, McGrath, it has to start somewhere. If we cannot take care of our own first, how in the world can we hope to take care of anyone else? I am NOT saying we should not help others, but I do think the shrub's agenda is way out of balance and the US does need to take care of its own in a better way. I think the shurb et alia are acting under the gross misconception, i.e. not in the "real" world, that all Americans are well off enough to afford the kind of spending he's done in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 08:50 AM

It always seems to me that generally anyone who says "Charity begins at home" they mean "Charity ends at home".


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST,booter
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 08:02 AM

Why does our welfare system extend to the rest of the world. 87 Billion for Iraq will cost the average US family approx $1,000.00. Does the so called leader of the US not believe that charity begins at home. I question Bush's blood for oil program. And that IS what it IS. As a Vietnam Veteran...this fiasco scares me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:45 PM

Starting with Corporate Welfare....

Man, that alone would provide a decent standard of living for, ahhhh, the rest of the population...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:57 PM

You still dont get it....Start looking at the benefit system as a tool of the powerful,who want to preserve the status quo.
Stop complaining about benefits and benefit fraud and think of the condition your wonderful economic system would be in if they were scrapped......AKE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:28 PM

oh. So the subsidy has nothing to do with his being an artist? And actually it is part of a plan of which all are participants (except the amish) :^)


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:40 PM

"It" is in reference to McGrath's It's the way most patrons used to do it at one time. It would have helped Mozart, for example. Meaning "it," a governement subsidy, essentially, is helping my brother, as an artist. He receives SSI, being over 65 and in the next-to-nothing income bracket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:18 PM

GUEST of 2:23 PM-The society has the obligation to support its members; that's what makes it a society. Anyone who needs help should recieve that help, within reason, and certainly it is reasonable to provide necessities to those who, due to either disability or the fluctuations of our "free-market" economy, cannot provide for themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 02:41 PM

"It is and has helped my brother"

What is "it", kat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 02:23 PM

I would just like to ask a question. Who has the RIGHt to the benevolence of the community at large ? How do we decide if anyone does and if so, who ? I do not mind supporting the needy I hate supporting generations of the needy. I find it a very difficult thing, who is needy, who is habitual ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Benefits/Welfare.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:45 AM

It's true enough that heavy drug use of one sort or another can interfere with employment earnings - but in any case benefits don't pay for much of a habit. Serious drug users get their money in other ways, frequently very socially destrictive ways. This is just one of the ways in which the "war on drugs" damages everybody.

Sorting out the drug problems of society isn't going to be significantly furthered by leaning on people living on benefits. Insofar as doing this increases pressures on people living on the edge and on their growing children, it could well make things worse.


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