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BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!

wilco 18 Jul 03 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,pdc 18 Jul 03 - 05:54 PM
Amos 18 Jul 03 - 06:01 PM
Greg F. 18 Jul 03 - 06:12 PM
TIA 18 Jul 03 - 06:40 PM
Gareth 18 Jul 03 - 06:47 PM
Bill D 18 Jul 03 - 06:48 PM
TIA 18 Jul 03 - 06:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 03 - 06:55 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jul 03 - 07:00 PM
Gareth 18 Jul 03 - 07:08 PM
Deckman 18 Jul 03 - 07:09 PM
Ebbie 18 Jul 03 - 07:16 PM
Leo Condie 18 Jul 03 - 07:22 PM
Leo Condie 18 Jul 03 - 07:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 03 - 07:23 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jul 03 - 07:31 PM
Leo Condie 18 Jul 03 - 07:32 PM
Gareth 18 Jul 03 - 07:38 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jul 03 - 07:39 PM
Deckman 18 Jul 03 - 07:55 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jul 03 - 08:03 PM
Don Firth 18 Jul 03 - 08:13 PM
Hillheader 18 Jul 03 - 08:22 PM
Alba 18 Jul 03 - 08:25 PM
kendall 19 Jul 03 - 07:13 AM
Rick Fielding 19 Jul 03 - 10:44 AM
Yvonne 19 Jul 03 - 11:10 AM
wilco 19 Jul 03 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Boab D 20 Jul 03 - 03:04 AM
DougR 20 Jul 03 - 06:53 PM
Gareth 20 Jul 03 - 07:01 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 03 - 07:07 PM
kendall 20 Jul 03 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,Claymore 20 Jul 03 - 07:14 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 03 - 07:15 PM
Gareth 20 Jul 03 - 07:49 PM
mg 20 Jul 03 - 08:28 PM
kendall 20 Jul 03 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 20 Jul 03 - 09:02 PM
Bobert 20 Jul 03 - 10:07 PM
Deda 21 Jul 03 - 12:05 AM
Teribus 21 Jul 03 - 07:14 AM
kendall 21 Jul 03 - 12:58 PM
DougR 21 Jul 03 - 01:01 PM
kendall 21 Jul 03 - 01:41 PM
Amos 21 Jul 03 - 01:55 PM
Gareth 21 Jul 03 - 02:07 PM
M.Ted 21 Jul 03 - 02:36 PM
Teribus 22 Jul 03 - 04:17 AM
kendall 22 Jul 03 - 07:10 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 22 Jul 03 - 09:12 AM
Teribus 22 Jul 03 - 09:21 AM
kendall 22 Jul 03 - 07:26 PM
Bobert 22 Jul 03 - 07:35 PM
mg 22 Jul 03 - 09:35 PM
Teribus 23 Jul 03 - 03:36 AM
kendall 23 Jul 03 - 02:10 PM
Raptor 23 Jul 03 - 03:42 PM
kendall 23 Jul 03 - 07:02 PM
Amos 23 Jul 03 - 08:21 PM
Amos 23 Jul 03 - 09:40 PM
Amos 23 Jul 03 - 09:49 PM
rangeroger 23 Jul 03 - 10:19 PM
Gareth 24 Jul 03 - 07:47 AM
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Subject: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: wilco
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:49 PM

There are many of us who appreciate these men for their leadership. We admire them for their moral courage and resolve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:54 PM

I agree with you. Both Bush and Blair show courage in sending others into war, resolve in denying evident truths, and Bush especially shows morality in the way he takes elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:01 PM

It is true they showed they had the courage to stand up and engage in war.

What I consider most unfortunate is that they did not have the courage to stand up and refrain from war.

As for "leadership" I can only say that Attilla was a fine leader of men too. I guess it depends on your definition of terms.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:12 PM

If they'd only lied about a blowjob instead of faking evidence to precipitate a war....


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: TIA
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:40 PM

If the war was really about humanitarian liberation of the Iraqi people, why didn't they have the courage to sell it as such?


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:47 PM

TIA - Blair did !

Just remember, there is more to calling yourself a peace activist than singing "We Shall Overcome"

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:48 PM

I have the courage of my convictions-

YOU are a bit stubborn and self-righteous-

HE is dangerous, pig-headed fool.

paraphrase from Sidney J. Harris


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: TIA
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:50 PM

Gareth please clarify the "We Shall Overcome" reference. Whhoooosh - totally over my head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:55 PM

He didn't really - I mean, what he said was, and I think this is a fair paraphrase, not in any way a quote, "the grounds for the war is the need to get rid of the weapons of mass destruction we know Saddam has, which threaten us - but if in the course of this we can get rid of this evil dictator it will be a very welcome bonus".


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:00 PM

Yes, thank you, Adolf & Benito. Hang in there. Do not let the naysayers and nitpickers get you down. Your courage and tenacity stirs admiration in all who value freedom and justice, and you will no doubt be exonerated by history in due time...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:08 PM

Point proven Kevin !

Little Hawk - I am appalled to see you come out in your true colours. I find this particulally galling when there are far to many retrospective justifiers of Hitler arround. But then your posted love for Weapons should have been an indicator.

TIA - Dont worry, it wasn't over anybody elses head.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:09 PM

Did you understand everything I think I thought I said, or did my twist get all tongued up around my eye tooth so that I could not see what I was saying? Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:16 PM

I suspect Gareth has his tongue stuck tight in his cheek. I certainly hope so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Leo Condie
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:22 PM

We have to remember the famous quote: All it takes for evil men to win is for a few power-crazed lunatics to build the biggest and most economically successful nation in the world and then go round other countries blowing the shit out of them. Or did I mis-remember?


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Leo Condie
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:23 PM

oh and I am the only one who noticed the thread title could be read as Bullshit Moral Courage?


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:23 PM

Point proven all right Gareth - but my point, not yours.

If he'd said something on the lines of "Well, there comes a time when doing the morally right thing is more important than doing the legally right thing, and this is one of them", than your point would have been proved. But he didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:31 PM

You have no idea, Gareth! I adore Darth Vader too, and I just can't understand why people don't universally admire Mike Tyson for his courage, character, and grace under pressure. Wanna come over and see my bowie knife collection and ninja stuff? :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Leo Condie
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:32 PM

Remember the Alamo, Little Hawk!


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:38 PM

Kevin - My point not yours - remember Ann Clywdd.

Well LH talk's peace but prepares for war.

And what was the alternative. Sanctions, well the Oil for Food program seems to have been oil for palaces and weapons.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:39 PM

Remember the Maine, Leo! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:55 PM

Jeezus ... shades of Ollie North again! Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 08:03 PM

The alternative was not to plan on and launch an unprovoked, illegal war of aggression for very spurious reasons, and to lift the embargo, and to treat Iraq as a sovereign country despite the fact that they are not perfect and don't always do exactly what you would like them to do. That was the alternative. The events of 911 were falsely used (by default) to maneuver the American public into supporting a completely unnecessary war of aggression on Iraq, and I'm sure that Osama Bin Laden and the Saudis are quite pleased about it, since they both hated Saddam and the Baath Party with a passion.

But it all depends on your basic biases as to how you will see it. People filter information according to their prejudices, and ours just happen to be different, Gareth, that's all.

How am I preparing for war? Are you referring to the dachshunds perhaps? :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 08:13 PM

wilco48, before you start a thread like this, you should issue airsick bags!

These two people you seem to admire so much may indeed have the courage of their convictions, but their convictions are what's in question. A couple of hungry barracuda have the courage of their convictions and a whole lot of resolve also, but allowing them to be in charge of a couple of countries and a huge military machine is not too bright an idea.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Hillheader
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 08:22 PM

Gareth

Tory Blur is the best conservative PM the UK has ever had --- or been had by.

Iraq could launch WMD's in 45 minutes was as likely as me running a marathon in the same time. He lied to the people, he lied to Parliament, and because of that British soldiers died.

So let's say he was right to simply wage war to oust Saddam. Who not Mugabe in Zimbabwe?

Davebhoy


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Alba
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 08:25 PM

So much for thinking the Thread was going to be funny!
Moral Courage
Bush and Blair
Thanks.
Seems there is three points being discussed here as there is no connection between the three subjects listed:>)
JD


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 07:13 AM

WOW! was this thread well named BS!
Speaking of convictions, my reps to congress know what I want of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 10:44 AM

Wilco, haven't the inconsistancies (even if you don't consider them 'out and out lies') made your resolve waver a bit? These men made up stuff to send their troops to war. That's what Hitler did.

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Yvonne
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 11:10 AM

Following the death of Dr David Kelly reported in the press today--Blair should at the very least hang his head in shame! He should go--the Iraqi war was based on lies.
Bush and his advisers can be excused--they are people of little intellect.

Diz


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: wilco
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 12:14 PM

Thank you for your kind commentary. I appreciate your insights, but I've already raised my children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: GUEST,Boab D
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 03:04 AM

Well the only think linking these words are bush is joined to blair and its all sexuall. Cant be anything else can it cos Bush isn't really clever enough to have a conversation with Blair never mind dictate the foreign policy of the uk. However I think that Mr Blair has the whole world fooled and he's the one pulling the strings on both sides of the pond. Think about it. Here is a man who is trying to be this big international mediator cant be seen to be a war monger so he goes and see's his daft wee pal(well he knows a dafty)in bush tells him a wee story and voila there you have america leading the war effort with the british conveniantly behind them no matter what. Then when all the post conflict stuff comes out into the open guess what happens. Oh My Goodness All the information came from Tony Blair because america were to stupid to gather there own inteligence. Now we have people killing them selves people dying for the right thing and people living in terror. But hey at leats America has there greedy hands on the oil that they so need.
Bring the troops hame and let the world sort its own affairs as we have enough poverty in each of our countries with out taking on everyone elses shit.
Dylan


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 06:53 PM

I've been moving so I haven't had much time to get on the Mudcat for the past two or three weeks. It's nice to see it hasn't changed in my absense.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:01 PM

welcom back DougR - I may not agree with some/many of your posts but thank the Lawd there are some other non automations around.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:07 PM

It has changed! There are 35% less references daily to William Shatner than there were 6 months ago. Wait...make that 34%, now that I've posted this one...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:11 PM

automations? what is that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:14 PM

Me too Doug, though I was busy with my Fathers funeral at Arlington.

But not to put too fine a point on it, with all of the talk of "Lies" etc.; Can anyone, anywhere, point out any statement by any Democrat, member of the UN, or any person connected with the run-up to the war who said at anytime that there were NOT weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, prior to the conflict?

Thought so...


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:15 PM

Automation is the replacing of human labour with machines. I believe the word Gareth was looking for was "automaton" (a robot, one who behaves in a robotic manner...or one who disagrees with Gareth, in other words...). (snicker)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:49 PM

Ooooh pedantic LH, but I'll give you the stripe. Actually Automaton is the correct spelling. ie those who see the word G W Bush junior and who can not refrain from criticism the US of A.

Tho in the 'Cat, well some 'Catters, Automation might be correct.

Hey welcom back Claymore - Don't expect me to support GWB right or wrong, buts let confound those who think that thier measure of Human Rights is knowing all the words to "We Shall Overcome".

Gareth

"Oh Stalin wasn't stalling, when he told the Beast of Berlin ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: mg
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 08:28 PM

well I went to a Catholic school and we sang we shall overpopulate..mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 08:51 PM

The democrats, being out of power, had no access to such information. I'm sure you know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 09:02 PM

"Can anyone, anywhere, point out any statement by any Democrat, member of the UN, or any person connected with the run-up to the war who said at anytime that there were NOT weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, prior to the conflict?"

To say there were *no* weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, prior to the conflict would have been as irresponsible as it was to say that there *were* WMDs. Nobody knows. The inspectors were not allowed by Mr Bush to complete their inspections.

On the other hand, I am convinced that North Korea does have WMDs, as well as an evil ruler. How many of y'all are for a pre-emptive war against North Korea?

The WMD hassle is ultimately beside the point, except as an indication that you can't trust the government, & some of us knew that anyway.

The war was wrong for the same reason that pre-emptive hanging of people is wrong. It's not good to lynch either good guys or bad guys. Even if you lynch them courageously.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 10:07 PM

Well, Claymore, my friend, I find the words *you* used, "run up to war",.... somewhat baffling. "Run up to war." Hmmmmmm? Why would anyone in their right (no pun intended) mind, ahhhh, "run up to war"?

Like what's the hurry?

Sounds like a PR thing to me. Whadddayathink? Maybe there was a bit of, ahhhh, haste?

And if so, what's that all about?

These are logical questions to ask, Claymore, and others...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Deda
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 12:05 AM

I don't call it courage to send other people's children into the path of bullets. Julius Caesar rode in front of his troops wearing a bright red cape, so that all his men could see him (and the enemy could, too). His men loved him. Hannibal, similarly, was famous for living and fighting on exactly the same terms as his men, eating the same rations, sleeping on the ground with them, etc. Bush and Blair don't have moral courage. They assign that to other people -- mostly kids under the age of 25. Bush used family connections to sidestep any danger himself at that age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 07:14 AM

No surprises for Bobert & Co., but I am completely with wilco48 on this one.

Post 911, both current US and UK governments took stock and saw with respect to Iraq, and the total lack of action on the part of the United Nations, a threat that potentially could only get worse with the passage of time.

Yes it did require the exercise of leadership, the courage of conviction and strength of purpose to bring the situation to a head - They were not responsible for the war, for reasons best known to himself, credit for that belongs to Saddam Hussein - he could after all have co-operated fully first with UNSCOM & IAEA, or latterly with UNMOVIC & IAEA - please do not ignore that fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 12:58 PM

What threat was that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 01:01 PM

Yes, Teribus, it will come as no surprise to anyone here that I agree.

Claymore: I'm sorry to hear about your dad.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 01:41 PM

I repeat. What threat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 01:55 PM

Teribus:

Answer the man's question, here. That was the hinge point of the whole period you called "run-up" -- the assertion of threat.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 02:07 PM

Click Here

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 02:36 PM

Also sorry to hear about your dad, Claymore--

DougR--glad you're back--


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 04:17 AM

Thanks Gareth you have saved me the trouble.

Kendall, Amos - read through it

It refers to the material known to exist from Iraqi inventories, reported by UNSCON and entirely unaccounted for.

It refers to the strong likelyhood that Iraq was actively pursuing missle development programmes proscribed under UN Security Council Resolutions. Did UNMOVIC find such a programme on their return to Iraq - the answer to that question is yes.

As to the remainder - it is still very early days yet - the only difference is that the US are hitting the problem with an inspection team 1,200 strong (four times that of the UN) and many of the main Ba'athist players are in US custody, with the threat of intimidation of minor players greatly reduced.

The objectives are:

1. Find out, beyond all reasonable doubt, i.e. in a verifiable form, what happened to the stocks detailed in UNSCOM's Report.

2. Establish whether, or not, WMD programmes relating to the development of WMD and WMD capability were being actively pursued by Saddam Hussein and the Ba'athist regime. Due to recent action by Coalition forces we know with a high degree of certainty that no such programmes are in place at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 07:10 AM

Is it possible that they destroyed those weapons as ordered?


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:12 AM

We don't see eye to eye on this type of thread, but condolences to you, Claymore. Losing someone close to us puts all the rest in perspective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:21 AM

Kendall,

In response to your question, "Is it possible that they destroyed those weapons as ordered?"

I can only say that they were given every possible opportunity to prove that they had done so - but they didn't. Unless of course you are prepared to accept the required Iraqi statement of the 7th December, 2002. This statement was totally discounted by both Hans Blix and Mohamed Al-Baradei as being incomplete and inaccurate. This dismissal was further backed up when items the Iraqi's fervently claimed that they did not possess started turning up.

Also, getting rid of the items detailed by UNSCOM only satisfies one part of the UN's stated requirements in relation to WMD, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 07:26 PM

How does one prove a negative? Why didn't Saddam use those weapons? because they did not exist? Before the war, the chief inspector whose name I don't recall, stated that it was a wild goose chase, and that no such weapons existed. He was branded a traitor and a fag. Now it seems he was right. On the news tonight, the white house finally admitted it had received memos from the CIA months ago warning Bush that some of the intelligence was faulty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 07:35 PM

Sorry to hear about yer father, Claymore. I lost mine last Sept. 29th and still miss him. My condolenses, my friend...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: mg
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:35 PM

yes, it does take courage to send other people's children into battle. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:36 AM

kendall,

From your post in response to mine:

"How does one prove a negative?"

UNSCOM used extensive documentary evidence - supplied by the Iraqi's - that detailed their stocks of precursor material, stocks of weaponised agents and stocks of munitions, to establish what Iraq had produced, stored and used. Everything was fully documented and there was a discrepancy between those figures and what Iraq had used and what had been destroyed under UNSCOM supervision. The Iraqi authorities did not co-operate with UNSCOM in resolving questions relating to what had happened to that material, instead they embarked on an extremely well co-ordinated programme of deception and interference - Why?

Entirely at the instigation of the current US administration, UN inspection teams return to Iraq and again did not receive the full, pro-active co-operation of the Iraqi regime. Everything up to date on their WMD programmes had been fully documented by the Iraqi's - Why all of a sudden was this practice abandoned?

Now you, as Kendall Morse, can afford to take the view, "Oh well, I'll just write that down as a book-keeping error and I will accept Saddam's assurances that all such stocks, weaponised agents and munitions have been destroyed." You can afford to adopt that course of action because you are only responsible for Kendall Morse. You can also choose to ignore the fact that the man and regime you have just given a clean bill of health to has current links with terrorist organisations and totally dismiss the possibility that he might extend those links to terrorist organisations operating internationally, or that material, expertise and knowledge passed to those groups could not possibly to transferred to others for use against you. The President of the United States of America could never adopt such views because he is responsible for safety and security of the entire nation and all its citizens where ever they may be in this world.

"Why didn't Saddam use those weapons? because they did not exist?"

Again as private citizen Kendall Morse you can state the above quite happily and ignore all other possible explanations. You can choose to ignore the fact that he has used them and could use them again. Are you willing to consider those other possible explanations? If so they are as follows:
- 1991, during Desert Storm, they weren't used because the remit of the coalition forces was the expulsion of Iraqi forces from Kuwait - not the conquest of Iraq. The way that war went Saddam Hussein knew that if at anytime he had used those weapons that remit would have changed dramatically and those weapons would not have affected the end result - the total destruction of himself, his regime and his country.

- Means of delivery, Saddam's force's optimum means of delivering such weapons was from the air, in 1991 his Air Force, en-masse did a bunk to Iran. In 2003, due to complete air supremacy of coalition forces, he had no Air Force to deliver those munitions.

Having gone through the reports and comments of both Dr. Hans Blix, Chief of the UNMOVIC Weapons Inspection Team, and Dr. Mohamed Al-Baradei, Head of IAEA, before the war, neither made any such comment in relation to their work being a, "wild goose chase", and neither made any comment or statement that no such weapons existed.

As for your comment, "On the news tonight, the white house finally admitted it had received memos from the CIA months ago warning Bush that some of the intelligence was faulty." Oh Joy!! as you put such great store in that admission, does that mean that you accept fully that as some of the intelligence was faulty, then some of it wasn't?

As Kendall Morse, private citizen - you can afford that luxury - Your President cannot, and unlike you must decide on a course of action based upon what information he has at a given time. The events of September 11th, 2001 changed the world, because it was brought home abundantly clearly that the United States of America for all it's great power, wealth and geographic position was as vulnerable as any other nation on this planet - with that realisation comes the necessity to change the way of thinking at the top with regard to evaluation of potential threats. Particularly if your President wants to honour his obligation to his country and to private citizen Kendall Morse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 02:10 PM

He's not my president. He's a liar and a phoney. He has no clue what to do about the economy which is in the toilet, so, like many other leaders before him he takes our attention away from that by bombing the shit out of a country that was not a threat to us. Colin Powell said before the war that there was no link between Saddam Hussein and Al Quida.


> the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into
a
> patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both
> emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of
war
> have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has
> closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the
citizenry.
> Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will
> offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know?
> For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
>
>


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:42 PM

I'm glad that our P.M. had the balls to decide not to follow Bush as Blair did!

Raptor

Whats 7 inches and hangs between George Bush's legs?









Tony Blair's Tie!


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 07:02 PM

My post should start with BEWARE the leader...


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 08:21 PM

yes, it does take courage to send other people's children into battle.

Quite right, Mary -- and clarity is a good ingredient in such a choice as well.   

Kendall:

That "Thus have I done, for I am Caesar" quote was listed on Snopes a long time ago as a fabrication, neither Caesar nor Shakespeare. Doesn't make it any less true, though...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 09:40 PM

The President of the United States of America could never adopt such views because he is responsible for safety and security of the entire nation and all its citizens where ever they may be in this world.



This is horse pucky. An elected official is not the "father" of the nation and his responsibility is for the safety and security of the nation as a whole, not for those who exercise free choice to make their own decisions about where they will place themselves in the world. If he paid more attention to international dynamics and less fretting about the safety of individuals he would be doing a much better job. He is not the King, nor is he the Chief Executive Officer in the way a corporate CEO is.

It is good policy to care about American citizens and male it clear that the nation will look after its own and get rough on those who mess with them.   But that should not be perverted into a paternalistic attitude. That way lies folly.


A

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 09:49 PM

An article expressing some of my reservations about the creeping fascism now afoot in hte halls of democracy.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: rangeroger
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 10:19 PM

I love it. I clicked on Gareth's link above and got a message stating that it "contains a type of information that can't be used".

Sort of like lies.

rr


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Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 07:47 AM

Nice try RR Here is the exact statement Page 4

"Gathering intelligence inside Iraq is not easy. Saddam's is one of the most secretive and
dictatorial regimes in the world. So I believe people will understand why the Agencies
cannot be specific about the sources, which have formed the judgements in this
document, and why we cannot publish everything we know. We cannot, of course,
publish the detailed raw intelligence. I and other Ministers have been briefed in detail on
the intelligence and are satisfied as to its authority. I also want to pay tribute to our
Intelligence and Security Services for the often extraordinary work that they do."


Gareth


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