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BS: Tour de France, Anyone?

GUEST,Al 17 Jul 08 - 08:11 PM
Bill D 17 Jul 08 - 11:11 AM
Bill D 17 Jul 08 - 10:26 AM
Wolfgang 17 Jul 08 - 07:35 AM
artbrooks 02 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM
artbrooks 02 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM
Bill D 02 Jul 08 - 02:16 PM
Wolfgang 02 Jul 08 - 08:23 AM
Wolfgang 28 Sep 07 - 07:34 AM
Wolfgang 28 Sep 07 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,redhorse at work 31 Jul 07 - 08:22 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 07 - 08:06 AM
Bill D 30 Jul 07 - 11:28 AM
Bill D 30 Jul 07 - 11:19 AM
Wolfgang 30 Jul 07 - 10:23 AM
DannyC 30 Jul 07 - 07:20 AM
goatfell 29 Jul 07 - 09:59 AM
ard mhacha 28 Jul 07 - 04:20 PM
Bill D 28 Jul 07 - 02:55 PM
John MacKenzie 28 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM
Bill D 28 Jul 07 - 01:42 PM
goatfell 28 Jul 07 - 01:39 PM
ard mhacha 28 Jul 07 - 05:08 AM
ard mhacha 26 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM
goatfell 26 Jul 07 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 26 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,ibo 26 Jul 07 - 06:45 AM
Folkiedave 26 Jul 07 - 04:33 AM
ard mhacha 26 Jul 07 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Bill D 25 Jul 07 - 08:47 PM
Wolfgang 25 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 25 Jul 07 - 09:12 AM
ard mhacha 25 Jul 07 - 08:56 AM
Dave Masterson 25 Jul 07 - 07:51 AM
Doug Chadwick 25 Jul 07 - 02:23 AM
Gulliver 24 Jul 07 - 10:03 PM
Bill D 24 Jul 07 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 24 Jul 07 - 04:11 PM
redhorse 24 Jul 07 - 03:27 PM
Wolfgang 24 Jul 07 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,ibo 23 Jul 07 - 08:43 PM
JennyO 23 Jul 07 - 07:03 AM
Wolfgang 23 Jul 07 - 05:04 AM
Liz the Squeak 19 Jul 07 - 01:58 AM
Cluin 18 Jul 07 - 10:35 PM
Greg B 18 Jul 07 - 08:12 PM
Bill D 18 Jul 07 - 07:17 PM
Liz the Squeak 18 Jul 07 - 05:51 PM
Bill D 18 Jul 07 - 03:30 PM
Wolfgang 18 Jul 07 - 02:06 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 08:11 PM

I saw the results on television tonight of today's stage, but has anyone heard the latest results of the drugs tests ?

The race has become more famous for this than cycling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:11 AM

I guess this is how they are thinking


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 10:26 AM

Part of the story

"When will they ever learn?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 07:35 AM

Ricco, the man who wears (until today) the red dot jersey (best climber) and the white jersey (best young cyclist) and winner of two mountain etappes, is the newest name on the list. His whole team retires from the Tour. Well, the double victory for his team on Monday, the most difficult etappe so far, by two fairly unknown cyclists was kind of surprising.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM

Do we need a 2008 Tour thread, or is there some kind of cachet to continuing it from one year to the next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM

All three ride for Astana, which has been banned this year for doping in prior years. Since team management has changed, I guess it is a punishment for the sponsors for not controlling their team better. Or somethieng. Vive le france!


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:16 PM

ALL those?? I don't understand why Contador & Leipheimer & Klöden need to be excluded? Are the teams now short of riders?

Are there any good riders left who are NOT suspected?

(I still am not convinced that Landis actually did anything illegal, despite certain test readings. )


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:23 AM

This year's Tour will be without:

Floyd Landis (fastest two years ago, but full of dope)
Alberto Contador (fastest last year, for doping in his team)
Andreas Klöden (second and third in the last years, for doping in his team)
Levi Leipheimer (once third, for the same reason)
Ivano Basso (Giro winner 2006, for trying to dope)
Ivan Mayo (always among the best, for doping)
Alessandro Petacchi (best sprinter, for doping)
Tom Boonen (winner of several etappes, for doping)
Michael Rasmussen (looking like the sure winner last year, for avoiding the doping control)

So that leaves Alejandro Valverde as the No. 1 favourite unless he is arrested on the one etappe ending in Italy (he is under suspicion as a customer of the dope pope Fuentes).

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 07:34 AM

Bill, sorry for overlooking your question.

On August 23, 2005, L'Équipe, a major French daily sports newspaper, reported on its front page under the headline "The Armstrong Lie" that urine taken from the cyclist during the prologue and five stages of the 1999 Tour de France had tested positive for EPO in recent testing conducted as part of a research project into EPO testing methods. This claim was based on an investigation in which they claimed to be able to match samples from the 1999 Tour that were used to hone the EPO test to Armstrong. (from the Wiki page about Armstrong)

That was what I had in mind.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 07:31 AM

Rasmussen who have been fired by his team for lying to them has now been found by a new method of analysis actually to have been doped during the Tour. Dynepo has been found in his urine, a new post-Epo era drug. This drug is not yet on the list so technically speaking he was clean.

I wonder why it did take so long to strike Landis from the list of winners.

It really is not fun watching the Tour if the winner is only found months later and one has the impression the winner is just the fastest who has not been found out.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:22 AM

Sorry, last post was me. Not anonymous, just careless

nick


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:06 AM

And there goes another..............Mayo

nick


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:28 AM

The most extensive articles I have found about Landis, Armstrong and doping have been in the Bicycling.com series. You follow the "related article" links at the bottom. They give some idea of the accusations and defenses being put forth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:19 AM

"Armstrong's blood of a way back Tour has been found to contain dope with refined analyses."

do you have a source for that, Wolfgang? I'd like to read more.

And I am interested to learn what KIND of 'doping' is done...(and when)..that is so difficult to detect in men who have been tested so often.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 10:23 AM

Contador's name has been on Fuentes' list to disappear only later. Look at the number of Spanish cyclists among the first twenty and you start asking yourself why. The Spanish cycling association helps them to suppress any suspicions.

Armstrong's blood of a way back Tour has been found to contain dope with refined analyses. Of course, he has been doped as each single former winner. But he has to lie (like Ullrich still lies) for fear of financial claims. But since he was the best among the dopers we can guess that he still would have been the best if noone had doped those years.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: DannyC
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:20 AM

I think the Tour remains beautiful. I enjoyed the daily drama of the breakaways and the relentless pursuit of the peleton. The winding scenery adds to my enjoyment, along with the creative enthusiasm of the crowds who line the byways.   I could do without the wandering, disruptive canines.

The commentators on Versus (who carried the Tour in America) were top-notch. (i.e. Phil Liggett and Paul Sherwen)   I found their commentary especially poignant (with a high degree of personal conviction) on the day after Rasmussen got dropped. I hope the Versus coverage does not get dropped for next year.   I suppose sponsors will be particularly difficult to attract and/or retain.

I believe (perhaps hope) the young up-and-comers will not take the dead end doping path. Doping or no - the daily display of endurance and suffering rivets my attention and fills me with hope for our breed.

Contador, Evans and Leipheimer were magnificent... whelp, that's one man's opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 09:59 AM

I think that some not all the cyclists are taking drugs, I don't those that take them because they have the flu or something, but if they are taking the drugs to cheat, well I hope that they get kicked out for cheating


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:20 PM

Bill I know how disappointed you feel, you are not on your own regarding the Tour.    I go back a long way following the fortunes of the various Tours, but I discovered a long time ago that most of the latest champions have been cheats, the sport of cycling has an awful lot to do before all of the cheats ate kicked out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:55 PM

I just flatly refuse to assume the worst about ALL of the riders until I must.

Call me naive, call me idealistic, but let me hope it can be fixed...ummm...changed for the better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

Tour de farce more like.
G


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 01:42 PM

Tom Simpson died from amphetamine abuse, which was only just being understood then.

They ARE doing extensive testing now, and stupid tricks such as Vinikourov tried are being caught. If you read way back in this thread, you'll see my post about the genetic advantages Lance Armstrong had, as well as his intelligence and fantastic training regimen. I can believe that he passed all those drug tests because he used no illegal drugs....I would hate to find out otherwise.

Now...I assume the the 3 Tour leaders are being tested as I type...I hope they all pass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 01:39 PM

NOPE


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:08 AM

A letter in to-days Irish Times asks, `Would it be alright to call the cyclists a load of dope peddlers`.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM

Tom Simpson died on the tour through drug abuse in 1967, that is one hell of a long time ago,surely by now they should have had their sport in order.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:15 AM

i like the cycling but I don't like the cheats, in any sport. Is like a chemist shop listening to it.

Rattle rattle


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM

I would bet that in any sport were size, strength, speed or endurance are needed to do well, there will be athletes taking drugs. Boxers who very suddenly increase in size are very suspicious. Professional wrestling - size and strength are needed. American football, where size, strength and speed are vital. Now, I'm not suggesting that everyone in those sports are on drugs, but I bet many are. And, I bet those sports aren't tested as stringently as cycling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:45 AM

yawn yawn yaaaaaawwn has it finished yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:33 AM

I don't know whether Armstrong took chemicals. I do know he was the most drug tested athlete - in and out of competition - in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:30 AM

Do you still believe that the great Lance was clean?, the chemicals Armstrong used would have helped Lance Percival [English comedian] to win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:47 PM

...and now Rasmussen, removed by his own team for deceptive practices
This leaves Contador leading....Discovery Channel with 2 of the 3 leaders...and 3 in the top 10.

Amazing and sad for cycling to have this much in one race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM

Whole team Cofidis (captain: Chavanel) leaves the Tour after one cyclist found positive.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:12 AM

It's true, drugs are everywhere in sport. The truth is that cycling is a lot more honest about it than many, many other sports. And, of course, it is possible to ride the Tour without drugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:56 AM

I have been telling you all along, you cannot climb those mountains on Lemonade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:51 AM

I'm so saddened by the current situation. It seems crazy to risk everything if you are almost certain to be caught by the present doping controls. We appear to have one of following scenarios:

1.        The riders in question are incredibly stupid (I find that hard to believe, particularly in the case of those such as Vinokourov).
2.        The riders in question are incredibly arrogant (same as point 1 in reality).
3.        The doping culture is so entrenched in some riders. Let's hope the younger generation of riders coming along, like Mark Cavendish, can change that mindset.
4.        The testing procedures are dangerously inaccurate. Dangerous because they are playing with the riders livelihoods. If this is the case it would explain why Floyd Landis is fighting his case so hard when all the evidence seems to be against him.

Unfortunately the doping culture has been endemic in pro cycling for many years. I recently read William Fotheringham's book on Tom Simpson, "Put me back on my bike". Simpson was my hero, and it's a superb book, but quite depressing in regard to all the doping that went on. Not all of it was on the bike though. The major part of a pro cyclists income was (and still is) provided not in the big races with their teams, but the smaller events to which they were individually contracted by their managers. They might race one day in Amsterdam, the next in Paris and the following day in Frankfurt. They had to drive themselves between races so took amphetamines to stay awake, then sleeping pills to get to sleep when they eventually got to bed. If they didn't like it they were told there were any number of up-and-coming riders who would willingly take their place. So a culture of drug acceptance was created, not just of cheating to win, but of survival.

I don't condone the taking of performance enhancing drugs, nor will I ever, but it seems it was the 'system' that was partly responsible for creating it in the first place, yet the 'system' condemns the riders when they are caught. At least the sport of cycling is trying to do something about the problem, which is more than can be said most other sports, who still have their heads stuck firmly in the sand. Witness the reaction when Gary Player had the audacity to suggest that some golfers took steroids to improve their game. The big money sports will never truly get to grips with the problem until they learn to risk losing the major sponsors that permeate their sports. Money talks I am afraid.

As an aside, I wonder how many of us would pass a drug/alcohol test when we got to work in the morning, or more particularly after lunch?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:23 AM

oh, I hope no more doping is found!

I hope no more doping takes place but, if it does, I hope that it is found. The UCI have to be seen to be in control.

Kill or cure is the only future for Le Tour.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Gulliver
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 10:03 PM

From what I've observed, the whole thing is a joke--it's just a matter of who manages to avoid getting caught. They all seem to be doping--just who is NOT doing it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:28 PM

oh, I hope no more doping is found! It has been nice watching Rasmussen doing well..and Contador chasing. It has even been good seeing Vinikourov coming back....but to win a stage after such a bad day IS suspicious...and they still haven't decided Landis' case.

If they don't solve the doping problem, the Tour may not have much future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:11 PM

It's sad. My favourite sports are running and boxing but I absolutely love Le Tour; however, certain riders are going to destroy it if their not careful. Vinokourov- the pre-race favourite is out, and there's a great big, suspicious looking, cloud hovering over the current race leader Rasmussen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: redhorse
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 03:27 PM

Yes, Astana's out
here we go again

nick


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 12:33 PM

Vino has been doped (blood from someone else) the day he has won the time trial in such a splendid manner. Astana (Vino, Kloeden), the preasent leader of the team classification, is rumoured to take the whole team off the present Tour tomorrow.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 08:43 PM

absolute boresville,giant yawn


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: JennyO
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 07:03 AM

200.

Because I can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 05:04 AM

So, now that most of the Tour and most of the difficulties are behind us (them), we can have a better look at the results from the dope angle. There are 21 teams competing which have split up just before the Tour in 8 teams that opted for stricter controls and an honour code for all racers not to dope and 13 teams that were against stricter controls (the present controls only find the stupid as we know). The argumentation of the teams against controls: We do not dope we just take medication as anybody else does.

Let's look at the overall standings: The present leader should not have been allowed to start according to the dope regulations. Among the first 25 of the overall standing is just one single cyclist from the dissident 8 teams (Kirchen, 14th, from the not completely clean team Telecom). The next from a clean team is ranked 28th. Among the first 20 are 9 Spanish cyclists with known or presumed relations to dope pope Fuentes. The first 8 teams in the team ranking come from the 13 teams against stricter controls.
Honi soit qui mal y pense?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 01:58 AM

So... just like a normal day for the pedestrian then! I've lost count of the times I've nearly gone flying after a stealth cyclist has snuck up behind me as I walk down the pavement. You'd think there would be a law against that... Oh wait, there is!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 10:35 PM

I felt bad for the poor dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Greg B
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 08:12 PM

Time to watch Triplettes de Belleville encore!


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 07:17 PM

So far, I have seen one big, burly man reach out and yank some kid off the road as he was trying to run beside the competitors, and one rider take a swipe at a kid running almost against him....in yesterday's breakaway (near the top of the last climb) ...I saw a spectator's dog get hit by a bike, and numerous other stupidities....and we aren't eve to the Pyrenees yet!

(yes, I know...my perennial complaint! I suppose they will do sonething about those mountain finishes when some idiot with a flag injures the leader.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 05:51 PM

Did anyone see the opening ceremonies? Those kids on bikes at the very beginning were from Limpit's school bike club!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:30 PM

Rasmussen 'thinks' he can do well in the Pyrenees, Mayo almost certainly will. The Colombian (and perhaps Contodor)are wild cards. Rasmussen admits openly that 110 miles of time trials are a problem for him..

If I was forced to bet a dollar, I'd put it on Mayo, then Kloeden...but I think I shall just watch, rather than bet...too many varibles this time. All it would take is one broken bike, or a crash, to put someone like Leipheimer in the lead...and he can ride time trials...


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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 02:06 PM

8 Teams have declared themselves dope-clean before the Tour and have voted for stricter controls. The other teams are against stricter controls.

It has been watched closely that 9 of the first 10 racers at this time come from the teams who resist stronger controls.

But it has also been noted with amusement that the first dope case (known now, but the test was before the Tour) of this year hits one of the 8 dope-free teams: T-Mobile, formerly Telecom. The perpetrator (Sinkewitz) is in hospital after his accident with a spectator. The spectator is still in coma I have read.

Now to the sport: Astana may have made a big mistake changing captain one day late (which made Kloeden lose about 1: 30 min). But the main sponsor who makes the calls comes from Kazachstan, Vinokurov's country. It took them one more day to realise that Vino cannot win this time after his injury.

Each of the first nine can still win at this time. Valverde and Mayo are in the best position I think. If I narrow my prediction, I say only two others have real chances beyond Valverde and Mayo: Rasmussen and Kloeden (Evans being my dark horse).

Wolfgang


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