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Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants

GUEST,Q 05 Aug 03 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Q 05 Aug 03 - 01:29 PM
JedMarum 05 Aug 03 - 09:28 AM
Just another Dave 05 Aug 03 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Q 04 Aug 03 - 09:56 PM
Uncle Jaque 04 Aug 03 - 09:08 PM
rangeroger 04 Aug 03 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,Q 04 Aug 03 - 07:31 PM
GUEST,Q 04 Aug 03 - 07:26 PM
JedMarum 04 Aug 03 - 06:57 PM
Just another Dave 04 Aug 03 - 06:40 PM
JedMarum 04 Aug 03 - 01:54 PM
Uncle Jaque 04 Aug 03 - 12:36 PM
Just another Dave 04 Aug 03 - 10:01 AM
JedMarum 31 Jul 03 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Rex (where's my cookie?) 30 Jul 03 - 03:56 PM
JedMarum 18 Jul 03 - 12:54 AM
Liam's Brother 15 Jul 03 - 10:45 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jul 03 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Fag an Bealac 14 Jul 03 - 11:06 PM
JedMarum 14 Jul 03 - 08:54 PM
GUEST,Q 14 Jul 03 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,Fag an Bealac 14 Jul 03 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,Q 14 Jul 03 - 12:58 AM
JedMarum 13 Jul 03 - 11:38 PM
GUEST,presently cookieless paddymac 13 Jul 03 - 11:30 PM
Liam's Brother 13 Jul 03 - 09:51 PM
JedMarum 13 Jul 03 - 10:14 AM
Just another Dave 13 Jul 03 - 09:33 AM
JedMarum 12 Jul 03 - 10:17 AM
Big Mick 11 Jul 03 - 12:10 AM
JedMarum 10 Jul 03 - 09:19 PM
GUEST,Liam's Brother 10 Jul 03 - 01:04 PM
JedMarum 09 Jul 03 - 04:13 PM
Brían 09 Jul 03 - 03:44 PM
LadyJean 09 Jul 03 - 12:32 AM
JedMarum 08 Jul 03 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,Annegi 08 Jul 03 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Big Mick 08 Jul 03 - 11:39 AM
LadyJean 08 Jul 03 - 12:13 AM
JedMarum 07 Jul 03 - 09:11 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 03 - 08:44 PM
JedMarum 07 Jul 03 - 02:00 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 03 - 03:40 AM
JedMarum 06 Jul 03 - 11:52 PM
GUEST,Shane Gibbons 06 Jul 03 - 03:37 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 02 Jul 03 - 04:21 PM
Irish sergeant 02 Jul 03 - 04:18 PM
JedMarum 29 Jun 03 - 09:51 PM
Just another Dave 29 Jun 03 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Fag an Bealac 28 Jun 03 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,John Moulden 28 Jun 03 - 06:25 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Jun 03 - 08:04 PM
Irish sergeant 27 Jun 03 - 03:13 PM
JedMarum 26 Jun 03 - 10:27 PM
JedMarum 26 Jun 03 - 10:18 PM
Just another Dave 26 Jun 03 - 10:07 PM
Irish sergeant 26 Jun 03 - 03:35 PM
JedMarum 26 Jun 03 - 12:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:52 PM

The history of the Macedonian had more twists than I indicated (should read fully before writing). The frigate was broken up in 1828, but the keel was used to build the second Macedonian, put in service in 1836. It was the rebuilt ship that carried famine relief to Ireland, transporting 12000 barrels.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:29 PM

The USS Macedonian also carried aid to Ireland during the famine.
This frigate had an unusual history. It was a British Royal Navy ship, captured by the USS United States 25 Oct. 1812, and placed in American service.
Its history is given on these two websites:
HMS Macedonian
USS Macedonian
After 90 years of combined British-American service, the ship became used as a New York hotel ca. 1900, and burned in 1912.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:28 AM

Smaller battles were fought against slavery by ships and ship owners of the day. The Charles W Morgan was a whaling bark of the period. Her owners just prior to the Civil War and in deed at leats one of her captians were Quaker abolishionists. They carried more then one runanway slave on whaling voyages in the decade leading up to this Civil War. This was no small rick, as they most likely would have been jailed for aiding a runaway - if they'd been caught. Of course for the runaway, he'd be out of sight and therefore unlikely to be captured for the 3 years or so of the journey. Additionlly, he would have found a level of equality he had not known on land - he would have risen to positons on board that his skills and work ethic qualified him for. In fact, one of the early harpoon heads was invented by Lewis Temple, a 'negro' boatsteerer and whaling craft maker. The boatsteerer was the fellow who started the kill, threw the harpoon - and this was s skilled position.

I'm curious about how many runaway African slaves worked on whaler and other ships.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Just another Dave
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 08:47 AM

Here's the "official" info on the dates for the USS Jamestown(1).
I will have to add a note to my Colcord.

Keel Laid: 1843
Launched: 1844

Norfolk Naval Shipyard

Dave


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:56 PM

It does seem strange that the USS Jamestown 1 history was new, to me, at least. It had 69-70 years of hard service all over the world. Thanks for bringing it up.
An American warship working against slavery in the 1840s- sounds like there could be a source of songs there too. I found nothing in American Memory.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:08 PM

Thanks for the facinating info on the "Jamestown"! This seems to lend credence to the impression that for whatever reason, unarmed Merchant vessels alone were not considered to be up to the job of delivering relief to the starving Irish.

The date you give sounds about right for what I read in that old History Text - I wish I knew where I stashed it!

    Veeeeellly Eeeenteresting, as the guy in the yellow raincoat and PickleHelm riding the tricycle around (and frequently tipping over) on "Laugh In" used to say. Anyone remember him?

Isn't it facinating how little tidbits of History turn up in the Old Songs; even the ones we were supposed to have forgotten about(?).

The Old Jamestown certainly served the cause of Freedom and Humanity well, didn't she?

Does anybody suppose that it might deserve as much credit in History as the "Amistaad"? If I had a bazillion dollars burning a hole in my pocket, I'd consider having her replicated, too.

We'd probably have no shortage of Reenactors and Mudcatters to Crew her, either, eh?


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: rangeroger
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:04 PM

Jed, congratulations on the show. As an adjunct I just watched the video "Gods and Generals" about Stonewall Jackson and the battles of Fredricksburg and Chancellorsville. Quite a bit of attention was paid to the Irish Brigades on both sides and the information about the farm on Marye's Heights was brought out.

Robert Duvall made an excellent Robert E. Lee and Jeff Daniels portrayed Chamberlain.

The history was quite interesting to me as I lived in Quantico,Va. for 4 years and played and camped as a Boy Scout in the woods where both armies fought.

I am looking forward to seeng "Gettysburg" and the final one in the trilogy "The Last Full Measure"

rr


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 07:31 PM

Some discrepancy on actual date (one year) and place of launching.
Her efforts against the slave trade were noteworthy.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 07:26 PM

Sloop Jamestown, 982 tons, 157' x 35' x 16', Norfolk Navy Yard, 1843. Transferred to marine Hospital Service, 1892. 48 shell guns, 18 32-pounders. See-
Vincent Ponko, Jr., 1974, "Ships, Seas and Scientists, U. S. Naval Exploration and Discovery in the 19th Century." Annapolis, Naval Inst. Press, p. 112.

Picture of the ship and data on Irish famine relief by this sloop at: JAMESTOWN
(A couple of nasty adv. to cancel out)

She hoisted the American flag at Sitka upon the purchase of Alaska. She was destroyed by fire in 1913.

The Macedonian also carried food to Ireland in March 1847.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 06:57 PM

there is also the story of a farm at Marye's heights - an important part of the battlefield at Fredricksburg - where a large amount of corn was grown and donated by the twonsfolks to the people of Ireland suring the potato famine. The field was later the same location where many many Irishmen died duriung the battle for Fredricksburg. I believe there is a song about the story ...


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Just another Dave
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 06:40 PM

Hi Uncle Jaque,

Re:
>I have found some historical evidence of the U.S Navy running a >British blockade in order to get relief aid to the Irish sometime in >the 1840's, and I'd like to get some input from others who know a >lot more about this part of History than I do.

In her book "Songs of American Sailormen" Joanna Colcord writes as an introduction to the song "The Jamestown Homeward Bound":
"The Jamestown was a sloop-of-war built in 1844 and is not to be confused with the Confederate gunboat of the same name. Her only claim to fame is that she was the relief ship sent by the United States government to Ireland to succor the victims of the famine of 1847."

Dave


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 01:54 PM

There seems to be some renewed interest in Chamberlain, and the Gettysburg story. I wrote a song a few years ago called Prayer From Little Round Top (lyrics are here) that I love. I have recently been approached by an author who has asked about developing a sceeen play from the song and has the backing to produce a movie. These things have a way of slipping away at the last moment, so who knows - but I am, of course happy at the opportunity.

The song tells the story of an Irish boy who left potato famine Ireland with his parents and siblings, lived in Alabama for years, and went to fight for his new country when the Civil War broke out. He died at Little Round Top.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 12:36 PM

Just FYI; in another unrelated thread on an upcoming Chany Sing in Portsmouth, NH,:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=61817&messages=9
Shanty Sing @ Press Room Thread

We sort of drifted off topic into a discussion of the Irish Potato famine and immigration to "AmeriKay".

I have found some historical evidence of the U.S Navy running a British blockade in order to get relief aid to the Irish sometime in the 1840's, and I'd like to get some input from others who know a lot more about this part of History than I do.

It would probably be approprite to bring the discussion right on over here if anyone wants to pursue it.

That sounds like a top-rate production you've got there, Jed! It would fit right in with a program coming up next weekend up here in Brunswick, Maine - "Chamberlain Days" in honor of the reknown Commander of the 20th Maine at Little Round Top in Gettysburg, who went on to become a General, President of Bowdoin College, and Governor of Maine for a spell.

A statue of his likeness was recently erected on the Campus of Bowdoin College in Brusnswick near the building which used to be his home for a number of years, now being restored and opened as a Museum by the Pejebscott Historical Society.

Several years ago, the Maine Summer Theater - which is made up of Broadway Performers and Apprentices Summering in Maine - put on a Musical about the life of Joshua Lawrence, titled, appropriately enough, "Chamberlain".

I was asked to provide period music, in uniform of course, for a reception on Campus before the opening, at which Jeff Daniels who had recently starred in the epic movie "Gettysburg" was in attendance.
He seemed like a genuinely decent chap, actually.

As recompence, I was sold two tickets to the show for the price of one, not to mention all the little hore de'vours I could scoop into my haversack! It was not a particularlly lucrative gig, but the foraging was prime - and it was a lot of fun!

"A MUSICAL about the CIVIL WAR???!!" I mused, incredulous over the seeming paradox of the concept, imagining Federal Infantry in pink tuttus and ballet-slipper brogans flitting around a stage singing arias in high alto voices with lots of roullades, feigning a bayonet charge down Little Round Top. But it seemed so ludicrous that I figured it ought to be good for a laugh or two if nothing else, and besides, it had been a while since I had taken "Aunt Mahtha" out to the Theater - so to the Theater we went... out of curiosity for the most part.

Well, Mister; I'll have you know we were in for a big surprise, and an unexpected treat as well!

The show was phenomenal!

The songs had been composed just for the show, and some of them were just beautiful. And the rest wern't all that bad, either. The dramatic effects were very powerful, as when they had vignettes of the "Soldier" (often Chamberlain) sitting in camp reading a letter from a loved one at home (like his Wife "Fanny"), and the spotlight would slowly open on the figure of the sender standing behind him who would take up the narration of the "letter" as the "Reader" faded off.

Wow!

I'd like to see that done to the poingient letter from Major Sullivan Ballou (which turned out to be his last, as he was killed at the Battle of 1st Bull Run a week later) to his Wife Sarah, as featured on the Ken Burns Series, with someone softly playing "Ashokan Farewell" in the background.

Yeah; I know the tune is "Farby" - but it has, thanks to Burns, taken on an association with the CW to the point that many Americans seem to relate it to the conflict more than "Dixie" or "Battle Hymn".
It's one of the most often requested "Civil War Songs" we get up this way when performing period music.

And it sure is pretty, ain't it?

Since when we are "in carachter" it is about a Century before Jay UNGAR is even to be born, so "I've never heard of it; Sorry Ma'am." has to suffice.
I really ought to learn it though, I suppose, and have sort of worked out the beginnings of an arrangement of it that uses BALLOU's letter as a lyrical theme. It's got potential.

That event out on Erie Canal sounds like a jolly good time - and we understand that Maeistro Minstrel BanjoSmith George WUNDER is going to be presenting there as well - now that alone will be worth the price of admission to anyone interested in the music and musical instruments of the ACW period.

A while ago he was looking into the reproduction of period "Parlor Guitars" which, if they are nearly as good as his banjos, should be quite the item. Does anyone know how he is coming with those? I havn't heard from George in a coon's age.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Just another Dave
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 10:01 AM

Hi All!
As promised, I have submitted another "No Irish Need Apply" CD to the Mudcat auction.

Also FYI if any of you are going to be in Gettysburg this weekend, we will be appearing at the Rupp House for a concert on Friday night, August 8, 7:30- 9:30PM. Also, in various places in and around the reenactment and in front of the Irish Brigade Shop (weather permitting).

Thanks all,

Dave


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 12:00 AM

Thanks Rex. I hope you get to see it too! Where are you? We're starting to book a few around ... we'll see how far it takes us.

There's a few pics on-line of the first show we did in Dallas. It was a lot of fun (and a lot of work). I hope we'll develop it a bit over the next year or so. I've got some really great folks to work with on the project.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Rex (where's my cookie?)
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 03:56 PM

I haven't been able to check into Mudcat in about a month and look at what I've missed. Wow! Jed you are doing some fine work here. I am grateful for what you have put together and hope to see your program somehow.

Rex


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 12:54 AM

... just a quick update. I wasn;t sure how far this show would go - I'm still not, but I did book one more in Marshall Texas (good venue, good price) for early Feb 2004 - and it looks like there are few others that will book soon. That's good, becasue I've written two mroe songs for the show, and I really think it's good show. We'll get a chance to develop to a bit.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 10:45 PM

Just in case anyone wishes to actually GO there, I should mention that St. Francis Xavier church in Manhattan is 1 block further north than I placed it above. The actual address is... 30 West 16th Street, between 5th and 6th Avenues.

While you're in Manhattan, you should also visit the FIRST St. Patrick's Cathedral at 263 Mulberry Street @ Prince Street. Hibernian Hall, i.e. the ORIGINAL Hibernian Hall where Michael Corcoran worked as a bartender and the 69th Regiment gathered, is across the street.

All the best,
Dan


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 12:00 AM

Keeping to the Civil War theme, the Levy Collection has several Union songs which used the same tune, and one is called an answer to the Bonny Blue Flag.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Fag an Bealac
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 11:06 PM

Hi Q,

I don't know but that we may be just circling the same subject from opposite directions. Valentine Vousden claims to have written both the lyrics and the melody for "The Irish Jaunting Car". While I have seen references to the tune as "an old Irish folk melody", etc., those are all 20th and 21st century writers (to whom the 1854 composed melody may be fairly characterized as an "old Hibernian melody.") But at the time Macarthy employed it, in 1861, I believe the evidence available indicates it was a fairly newly composed tune (within the previous decade) by Vousden.

Not to open a whole new thread, but the tune was also employed by Septimus Winner for his comic late war song, "He's Gone to The Arms of Abraham" and it turns up for the late 19th (or perhaps early 20th century sea song,) "The Harp Without A Crown." Does anyone know any others?

Fag an Bealac
(Gallant Sons of Erin)


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 08:54 PM

so ... The Irish Volunteers song, is based upon the Irish Jaunting Car? Cool - we used the Volunteers song - 1) becasue I love the lyrics and 2) because they fit the story we were telling about the Irish Yankees. Nice tune, great song.

Thanks for the background.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 08:44 PM

Fag an Bealac, thanks for the reference to Wright, Irish Immigrant Songs and Ballads, with date 1854 for the "Irish Jaunting Car."

The Vicksburg nps website gives two verses at the end of Bonnie Blue Flag which were added when the Confederacy grew to eleven states. These are absent in many of the easily found versions although printed in the 1861 sheet music by Macarthy and printed by Blackmar in New Orleans (Levy Collection).

"The tune is an old Hibernian melody" is stated in the write-up for the Vicksburg National Park Service website. Any idea of names for this melody and any printings of it earlier than the Civil War? There are similar references elsewhere, but never any details.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Fag an Bealac
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 07:51 PM

Hi all:

On the issue of Harry Macarthy and the Bonnie Blue Flag, the song the "Irish Jaunting Car" unquestionably predates Macarthy's composition. Here are a couple of credible websites.
http://www.nps.gov/vick/eduguide/chp_2/patriot.htm

http://www.lexphil.org/masterclassics/apr03/

Valentine Vausden's sheet music is reproduced in Robert Wright's, Irish Emigrant Ballads and Songs (Bowling Green Univ. Popular Press, 1975). The reproduction carries his signature and date of 1854. His lyrics are posted on our site:
http://www.28thmass.com/NINA/irish_jaunting_car2.htm

The Beadle's Songster we used as a source for the lyrics we recorded on the "No Irish Need Apply" CD was published in 1860.

The Bodleain Library has 7 "Irish Jaunting Car" broadsides with various lyrics. The Dates are approximate. Here is an example:
2806 b.11(246)

The American memory Collection has many "Bonnie Blue Flags" and also an "Irish Jaunting Car" broadside with the same lyrics as the Beadle's Songster. (date approximate).
The Irish jaunting car. Andrews. Printer, 38 Chatham St., N. Y. [n. d.]

I hope this is helpful! Please feel free to cruise the historical information supporting the No Irish Need Apply CD free of charge at http://www.28thmass.com/NINA/NINA.htm .

Please feel free to post questions on the mudcat or e-mail me privately at gallantsons@yahoo.com.

Keep the music alive!

Fag an Bealac
(Gallant Sons of Erin)
(28th Mass, Co. K)


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 12:58 AM

Paddy Mac, you have been trying to get an answer for some time, I see by past threads. Not an easy one to solve. Quite a bit in threads 7080 and (especially) 17359.
Fag an Bealac, 25 June 00, posted lyrics from the 1860s (dating not completely clear- what was the date on the printing of the Beadles Song Book for the Irish Jaunting Car? (Valentine Vousden). Note that in the song, "on the door is a star."
The Bonnie Blue Flag was published in 1861 (Harry McCarthy). It contains the words "bears a single star."
The melodies are very similar, and the lyrics posted by Fag an Bealac and those for Bonny Blue Flag (see DT) both go well with the melody.

Which came first? Both were popular. There seems to be no clear evidence of which came first. McCarthy is listed as an Irish immigrant; did he take the Irish melody? Or was it the other way around? The Bonny Blue Flag was first used in a revue in New Orleans in 1861.

Thread 17359: Jaunting Car
See the DT lyrics for Bonny Blue Flag and thread 33188: Bonny Blue Flag


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 11:38 PM

Your new record looks great, Dan. I will certainly add this to my shopping list!

I always wondered about the Casey's Hat song, if in fact that had New England orgins. It certainly is American, at east with the lyrics that I know ...

I can't help connect "Bonny Blue Flag" to the "Irish Jaunting Car" melody, Paddymac - sorry.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,presently cookieless paddymac
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 11:30 PM

Derak Warfield, of WolfeTones reknown, has a couple of solo CDs out dealing with US civil war material, with some historic and some original material. "Sons of Erin" has a lot of research included in the insert. I think Sigmund Spaeth was the original tune sleuth that connected "Bonny Blue Flag" to the "Irish Jaunting Car" melody. I have tried to follow that up with no success. I cannot find a version of any song or tune including "Jaunting Car" in its name/title that matches up with "BBF." That opening sixth interval is a pretty sure sign it's an old pipe tune of Irish origin. It's possible Siggie erred, or that there was such a tune which is now lost. Also very possible my digging has been insufficient. If anybody has any helpful hints I would be most appreciative.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 09:51 PM

Hi Jed!

Meagher's memoirs were prepared by Michael Cavanagh. If you can get that book inexpensively on www.bookfinder.com or somewhere else, it's worth a tumble. I have a number of other books and articles about Meagher... at least in part. I set to music an old broadside about his departure from Tasmania. Bob Conroy and I recorded it for an album we are doing together with Mick Moloney but nothing has happened on that front lately.         

I write about 12 articles a year for Irish Music magazine. About 8 are for a feature called "The Story Behind the Song." I did one on the Castle Garden here in NYC. I actually worked at the Castle (now called by an earlier name, Castle Clinton) over the winter and I had a locker there which I thought was pretty cool. I interview people from time-to-time and do some work as an actual reporter. I write for a few other magazines on a ad hoc basis as well. I have not been getting Irish Music of late for a reason unknown to me (probably no reason) so I'm sorry to have missed the review of your fine CD. I hope the recording is going well. I'm sure your show is very entertaining and very good.

Enjoyed "No Irish Need Apply" which I got at Mystic Seaport last month. The notes are extensive and good. All Dave's friends and relatives are historians by the looks of things.

To go off topic a bit, I have a new CD. You can take a look and actually hear a bit of it at Irish Songs from Old New England. You being an original New Englander, you might find it interesting. I only sing on 3 of the songs but I have quite a crew to take over where I leave off... Gordon Bok, Martin Carthy, Len Graham, Frank Harte, Louis Killen, Sandy & Caroline Paton, Robbie O'Connell, Ian Robb and other friends.

But I don't want to hog this thread. Start one on "Irish Songs from Old New England" and we can talk about it there.

Meagher was lost overboard of a tied-up riverboat at Fort Benton, MT while he was serving as Acting Governor. The body was never located. Mrs. Meagher was a devout R.C. convert and his memorial service was held at the church of St. Francis Xavier on 15th Street, near 5th Avenue; I live at 19th and 8th. The church is still there as well as Xavier High Shool, a very good military school very well known in NYC.   

All the best,
Dan


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 10:14 AM

will do, Dave.

I just placed my MC bid!


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Just another Dave
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 09:33 AM

Hey Jed,

You will have to let me know if you take the show on the road to the Northeast -- for that matter let me know if you are going to be touring in Southern New England Area at all. I think I would really enjoy your performance.

FYI - I have listed my/our CD "Irish Neeed Apply" on the Mudcat Auction with 100% going to Mudcat. If that one sells for at least $10.00, I'll put up another one. Hopefully, it will help Max out with his recent electrical problems.   

Dave


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 10:17 AM

The Mag comes out every few months, Mick. I used to subscribe, but I guess I let it lapse. I placed an ad in the issues that published the reviews. If I had any money, I'd probably place an ad in every issue! Great mag!

I'll have to go through my old copies and find Dan's articles. I guess I never bother to see who wrote what.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:10 AM

Yeah, Jed. Our Dan writes for Irish Music magazine. Which reminds me.....I haven't picked up a copy for several months.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 09:19 PM

Thanks Dan for the info. I only read about Meagher (and Corcoran for that matter) in passing; their exploits as related in histories, and maybe in a bit more personal way from McCarter's memoirs. Actually I really enjoyed McCarter's memoirs. McCarter truly thought the world of Meagher, even though McCarter strongly disliked excessive drinking and swearing (and Meagher was prone to both).

I'd wondered about Meagher's background. I suppose I could find some biographical material on him. I'll keep my eye out for a good book.

I got a nice review form Irish Music mag ... they said, "Irish Music Magazine readers will be delighted to hear Jed's take on our own Dan Milner's ballad of the Irish in revolutionary New York, The Sons of Liberty. "

Do you write for them Dan? I continue to play the song ... and audiences always respond to it. I am asked about the story, from time-to-time.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 01:04 PM

Hi Jed!

Meagher was a most interesting person. He seemed to have a polarizing effect on people. They either lover or hated him. Some thought him a bit of an adventurer too. He was educated at a very old, very upper crust R.C. boarding school in England and, to the shock of many people, spoke with an English accent. Meagher lived with his in-laws at an address on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan about 6 blocks from my home (not on Fifth Avenue). His father-in-law was an old-line Anglo-Protestant New York and the two would argue over politics and virtually everything else at breakfast.   

Another very interesting person was Michael Corcoran who was a member of the Revenue police in Co. Donegal. He bacame a Ribbonman, was detected as a double agent and left for America with virtually nothing. It was actually Corcoran who was colonel of the 69th at the time of the Prince's visit (October, 1860).

All the best,
Dan


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 04:13 PM

a fascinating was our Thomas Francis Meagher! The fellow who wrote MY LIFE IN THE IRISH BRIGADE, was named Wm McCarter, another irish immigrant. Wm was bright, eloquent (with a pen, verbally he suffered greatly with a stammer) and educated - Wm was about as straight an arrow as ever flew. He loved Gen Meagher, but was disappointed by Meagher's love for the liquor. McCarter had seen the good Gen in a very drunken state on a few occasions, late at night, in the camp whena ll was quiet - and McCarter thought it was the demon alcohol that buried his calws into Meagher's otherwise noble character.

Meagher and his officer friends probably all drank what they considered reasonable amounts.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Brían
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 03:44 PM

Thanks for the info on Meagher, Jed. I had heard that story about him being court marshalled, but I never realised this happened before his experience and skills were in demand:-).

Brían


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: LadyJean
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:32 AM

Owen Parry's latest book, "Bold Sons Of Erin", set during the civil war, should be out next month. You might enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 08:13 PM

I found 'The Great Shame' was an interesting read, as well. And yes, Meagher had been sentenced to Australia for his rebellious acts in Ireland - but managed to escape to America, where he came into prominence as a lawyer, a political leader and a military officer. He was court marshalled and jailed, briefly at the start of the Civil War - because he disobeyed orders and refused to show his command on parade for the Prince of Wales visit to America. When the war started, they needed his experience and his political support to bring the Irishmen into battle for the Union - and so all was quickly forgiven!

He was a hard drinking, brave and interesting man. His Irish Brigade was widely known for their bravery and toughness in battle.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Annegi
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 02:26 PM

I was interested in the comments included in this thread about the Irish immigrants and the Civil War. While it doesn't focus on the music of the time, I happen to be reading Thomas Keneally 'The Great Shame' and it has very interesting information on Thomas Meagher (which I found out is pronounced 'Maher') and the formation of the Irish regiments - and the battles they were involved in.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 11:39 AM

Big Mick here, from the depths of computer hell. I apologize to my friends at the Mudcat for my extended absence. My computer continues to make me pay for all my sins in this and several previous lives. Hopefully I will have sufficiently atoned meself soon and will be able to get back to a more normal posting schedule. I miss this place.

Jed, little bro of mine, did you tape this show? Video or audio? I would love to purchase a copy.

Once you got my interested in this I started to look around at the Irish in this and other wars. There are some great songs being written about the Irish immigrant and there war experiences. Tim O'Brien has got some wonderful songs.

I think I have got to order a copy of "No Irish Need Apply" from the Gallant Sons. It sounds wonderful.

All the best,

Big Mick Lane


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: LadyJean
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 12:13 AM

On St. Patrick's day, my friend Fred Best played his CD "Songs Of The Irish Brigade" in honor of my two great great uncles, the Mullin brothers, who were in Andersonville. Fred bought the record at the Pittsburgh Irish Festival, which is the weekend after Labor Day. (As, alas, is the Ligonier Highland Games.) It's a safe bet they've got a web site, and you can find him there.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 09:11 PM

Thanks Liam's Brother . We included the Honest "Pat Murphy of Meagher's Brigade" song in the show. It's a great song, and the fellow who sang it in the show did a great job, almost as good as the version from "IRISH IN AMERICA"

;-)

I guess that makes two I've lifted from you now! I think "McNally's Row of Flats" may be next!

;-)


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 08:44 PM

All the best with this Jed.

Liam's Brother


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 02:00 PM

We have not published a CD from the Ciil War show, as yet. If/when we do, I'll post the info on Mudcat. If I make an informal recording from this show (which is possible) I'll also reopen this thread and let Mudcatters know. We did record the show, but for the purpose of producing some demo/promo materials.

The website has some of the text posted - for the narrative parts of the show ... if that's of any interest.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 03:40 AM

Sounds like a fascinating show. Is there any way to get the CD in the UK?


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:52 PM

Thanks, Shane. And thanks for coming out.

I enjoyed the show too, and was glad to have a chance to tell some of those stories. I hope to repeat the show a few times this year, and will work on the couple of booking opportuntites we have open at the moment - but I don;t see anything happening again in the Dallas area, soon.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Shane Gibbons
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 03:37 AM

Hey Jed:

The show Thursday night was just incredible. It was the most honest and enjoyable treatment of the subject of the war that I've seen done. It's not every day that a guy from Massachussetts comes to the South and treats our history with such respect. The songs you selected were great, and I loved the costumes--the harp pin in your cap was an especially nice touch.

I attended an Independence Day family picnic on Friday and took your CDs and raved about the show from the previous night, and I think I may have found you another fan or two. I hope you do get to do this show again--it needs to be seen and heard.

Shane


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 04:21 PM

Derek Warfield's cd 'Sons of Erin' is all Civil War Irish music


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 04:18 PM

Jed: Best of luck! you'll do great. Neil


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Jun 03 - 09:51 PM

... this last week before the show is a lot of work. I've had a coupl eof out-of-town gigs in between the last few rehearsals ... and have a couple of smallgroup rehearsals left, our first (and only) full rehearsal on Wed night then stage/sound set up and we're on. It's going to be a damn good show.

Then I'll work at booking it around the US - if it works out, we'll develop and add/change - if not, it was a labor of love and (hopefully) a good one night stand!

I hope to have some good audio/video too.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Just another Dave
Date: 29 Jun 03 - 01:22 PM

Hey Jed,

Thanks for the kind words. I have always felt that the Mudcat is an excellent place to share information. This music is going to die if we don't try to share it openly. (Which seems to be counter to what is happening with music in the popular culture -- but that is an entirely different can of worms.)

I am not a professional musician -- although I have been accused of trying to impersonate one -- on occasion. I am a Librarian by profession and as such I would have been as happy putting the music on the website for free and selling the booklet -- but I was out voted!! (Can you imagine that?)

There is certainly a wealth of information out there on this subject. I know there are many people both in and out of the reenactor community who are interested in this music.

I am preparing for my first visit to Gettysburg this coming weekend. I have been invited to sit in with the 77th New York Regimental Balladeers at a couple of events. I believe that the Gallant Sons of Erin will be playing near the Irish Brigade Shop on Thursday and Friday (times to be determined).

Dave


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,Fag an Bealac
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 09:42 AM

John:

I've got the lyrics to that. I use the melody of "Shiloh Hill" but I'm not entirely comfortable with that. Do you have any other suggestions.

Fag an Bealac
Gallant Sons of Erin


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 06:25 AM

Have you found the ballad "The seven Irishmen's victory over the kidnappers of New York"? It refers to attempts to impress just landed Irish migrants into the Union forces.

John Moulden


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 08:04 PM

Might be worth a mention DTStudy Clare's Dragoons for the Irish connection

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 03:13 PM

Jed: we're doing a Civil War re-enactment August 16 & 17 at Erie Canal Village in Rome, NY. The Village is made up of buildings from the era and is on the site where the Erie Canal was started. We have a wedding planned and several scenarios besides the battles Saturday and Sunday. I'll talk to our C.O. and find out if they're looking for music other than your humble and obedient serrvant and his guitar and find out if they're willing to throw a few buck your way. Have a good weekend, Neil


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 10:27 PM

... by the way Dave, one of the songs in the show was inspired a young Irish immigrant in the 20th MA - I thikn they were alternately called the Copperhead Regiment - and the Harvard Regiment.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 10:18 PM

No shameless plug at all, Dave. Sounds like worthwhile info in deed and I will check it out. This show is already to go now, but assuming we replay it a few times, we'll evolve it a few times too - and new material may well be added, so thanks very much for the "shameless plug!"

I have to say I've really been impressed with the dedication and care musician/performers and music lovers have devoted to this subject. I am a working musician with what started out to be a passing interest i the Civil War and the Irish immigrant - but I haven't been able to put that interest aside! I am not a histroian nor am I a re-enactor - but the subject is of great interest to me, and we've been careful with our preparations, as well.


Neil - I look forward to hearing from you. I'll look into that tune too.


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Just another Dave
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 10:07 PM

Hi Jed:

You may want to take a look at the material on our new CD, "No Irish Need Apply" by the Gallant Sons of Erin. (Review forthcoming on "Wild Geese Today" website) Quite coincidentally, it is entirely focused on the Irish Immigrant experience in the American Civil War! It ties the music directly to the history of one of the Irish Brigade Regiments - the 28th Massachusetts. There is an extensively researched 40 page booklet included with full lyrics and the complete information on each song and it's relationship to the stories of the Irish immigarnt Union soldier.

I am certain that this CD would be a great source for your show - which sounds like a wonderful project. Here's the REALLY good news. The entire body of booklet information is avalible FREE OF CHARGE on the web at (http://www.28thmass.com/NINA/NINA.htm) http://www.28thmass.com/NINA/NINA.htm (with some really nice links and additional source material). It's our goal to share the history. The stories are so compelling that we know folks will want to buy the music when they read the stories.

You may be familiar with Paddy's Lamentation. The version that we do, "Pat in America" is drawn directly from a period broadside and the website documents an ACTUAL INCIDENT as described by the song that occured in 1864 involving the 28th Mass. Regiment. Transcriptions of the Newspaper articles are included on the web. The CD contains at least 6 songs that have never been recorded by anyone, ever! We mined them from archives and period newspapers. Also, it's been suggested that you consider "Irish Jaunting Car". That's a great tune! We recorded it on this CD. And the website will give you two sets of alternative period lyrics and links to broadsides with additional variations!

Check out the website - order a Cd (gallantsons@yahoo.com)gallantsons@yahoo.com - let us know how we can help and contribute to what sounds like a great project. We've already gathered material for CD #2 - and we've got all the material that we considered and rejected as well.
Whew! We regret the shameless plug for our product, but we think that we've got something that can be of real interest to you.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 03:35 PM

Jed:
   Man that sounds great! Yopu might think about doing "The Irish Jaunting Car" It predates the Civil War but the tune was used for both "The Bonny Blue Flag" anad David Kincaid's "The Irish Volunteer".
   If it isn't a stretch we do a few re-enactment in the area where they're always looking for entertainment. I ill pm you later with the information. kindestregards, Neil


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Subject: Music of US Civil War & Irish Immigrants
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 12:23 PM

I know there are some US Civil War folks out there in Mudcat world who may an interest in this show. I have a website with some quick info about the series, and the website is HERE.

Briefly, we will performing a series of songs and stories about the Irish immigrant's experience in the US Civil War - North and South. We are incorporating moving and stillimagery with the stage presentation. The show is primarily music-based, but the performers are in costume and the stage will be set appropriately as well.

I expect we will tour this show a bit over the next year, so if you have an interest or an idea about where/how we play it at a venue near you, please PM me. I can provide promo materials, including DVD of the performance.

Otherwise - I'd love to hear your feedback. It won;t make us a fortune, but it may earn its keep! It has been a labor of love.

We've researched quite a bit, and used songs and info from Mudcatter Kim C - we've used songs from David Kincaid - and others. Glad to talkj about research, if you an interest ...


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