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BS: Monkeys

Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Jun 03 - 06:39 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Jun 03 - 06:41 PM
Amergin 05 Jun 03 - 06:41 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Jun 03 - 06:49 PM
SINSULL 05 Jun 03 - 07:04 PM
Amergin 05 Jun 03 - 07:09 PM
harvey andrews 05 Jun 03 - 07:12 PM
Ely 05 Jun 03 - 07:23 PM
Rapparee 05 Jun 03 - 07:27 PM
Little Hawk 05 Jun 03 - 07:28 PM
Jeri 05 Jun 03 - 07:30 PM
Burke 05 Jun 03 - 07:35 PM
Mark Clark 05 Jun 03 - 07:39 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Jun 03 - 07:39 PM
Jeri 05 Jun 03 - 07:40 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Jun 03 - 07:42 PM
Jeri 05 Jun 03 - 07:50 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Jun 03 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 05 Jun 03 - 07:56 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Jun 03 - 07:59 PM
Jeri 05 Jun 03 - 08:01 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Jun 03 - 08:07 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Jun 03 - 08:10 PM
Sorcha 05 Jun 03 - 09:34 PM
Little Hawk 05 Jun 03 - 10:17 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 06 Jun 03 - 02:46 AM
Gurney 06 Jun 03 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,johnfromhull 06 Jun 03 - 08:56 AM
Rapparee 06 Jun 03 - 09:00 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 06 Jun 03 - 09:02 AM
EBarnacle1 06 Jun 03 - 09:03 AM
Snuffy 06 Jun 03 - 09:05 AM
mooman 06 Jun 03 - 09:26 AM
Gareth 06 Jun 03 - 04:52 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 06 Jun 03 - 08:05 PM
Sorcha 06 Jun 03 - 10:55 PM
artbrooks 06 Jun 03 - 11:52 PM
Sorcha 07 Jun 03 - 01:57 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jun 03 - 02:49 AM
Gurney 07 Jun 03 - 03:20 AM
TIA 07 Jun 03 - 10:36 PM
rangeroger 08 Jun 03 - 01:21 AM
Kaleea 08 Jun 03 - 03:05 AM
Gurney 08 Jun 03 - 05:23 AM
JudeL 08 Jun 03 - 05:52 AM
Liz the Squeak 08 Jun 03 - 07:52 AM
catspaw49 08 Jun 03 - 08:28 AM
Jeri 08 Jun 03 - 09:20 AM
Allan C. 08 Jun 03 - 11:12 AM
Doug_Remley 08 Jun 03 - 12:23 PM
catspaw49 08 Jun 03 - 12:30 PM
Gareth 08 Jun 03 - 01:16 PM
GUEST 08 Jun 03 - 01:56 PM
Tweed 08 Jun 03 - 02:32 PM
TIA 08 Jun 03 - 02:40 PM
Little Hawk 08 Jun 03 - 09:31 PM
TIA 08 Jun 03 - 10:48 PM
Little Hawk 08 Jun 03 - 11:27 PM
Gurney 09 Jun 03 - 06:50 AM
Little Hawk 09 Jun 03 - 12:42 PM
Peg 09 Jun 03 - 05:50 PM
Little Hawk 09 Jun 03 - 06:14 PM
Sorcha 09 Jun 03 - 07:07 PM
Peg 09 Jun 03 - 08:45 PM
Little Hawk 09 Jun 03 - 11:20 PM
Peg 10 Jun 03 - 10:34 AM
Little Hawk 10 Jun 03 - 01:06 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 10 Jun 03 - 06:29 PM
Doug_Remley 11 Jun 03 - 01:06 AM
Little Hawk 11 Jun 03 - 02:13 AM
Ebbie 11 Jun 03 - 03:39 PM
Amos 11 Jun 03 - 06:05 PM
Gareth 11 Jun 03 - 06:39 PM
Little Hawk 11 Jun 03 - 07:08 PM
Sorcha 11 Jun 03 - 11:17 PM
Amos 11 Jun 03 - 11:37 PM
Little Hawk 12 Jun 03 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,Bagpuss 12 Jun 03 - 05:17 AM
GUEST 12 Jun 03 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,alinact 14 Jun 03 - 12:55 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 03 Dec 04 - 02:10 AM
InOBU 03 Dec 04 - 07:52 AM
InOBU 03 Dec 04 - 07:53 AM
freda underhill 03 Dec 04 - 08:02 AM
Pied Piper 03 Dec 04 - 08:09 AM
Cluin 03 Dec 04 - 09:50 AM
Cluin 03 Dec 04 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,PPP Heathcare 26 Feb 05 - 07:51 AM
Jim Tailor 26 Feb 05 - 08:13 AM
CarolC 26 Feb 05 - 09:04 AM
robomatic 26 Feb 05 - 09:53 AM
Jim Tailor 26 Feb 05 - 09:56 AM
Jim Tailor 26 Feb 05 - 09:58 AM
Amos 26 Feb 05 - 10:26 AM
Jim Tailor 26 Feb 05 - 10:36 AM
Jim Tailor 26 Feb 05 - 10:37 AM
CarolC 26 Feb 05 - 10:52 AM
Amos 26 Feb 05 - 11:06 AM
robomatic 26 Feb 05 - 11:13 AM
Amos 26 Feb 05 - 11:23 AM
Jim Tailor 26 Feb 05 - 11:26 AM
Jim Tailor 26 Feb 05 - 11:27 AM
robomatic 26 Feb 05 - 06:03 PM
CarolC 26 Feb 05 - 06:26 PM
robomatic 26 Feb 05 - 06:41 PM
Little Hawk 26 Feb 05 - 08:13 PM
Bill D 27 Feb 05 - 06:58 PM
Little Hawk 27 Feb 05 - 10:37 PM
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Subject: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 06:39 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 06:41 PM

hello, if humans was desended from monkeys,then why are monkeys still monkeys then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 06:41 PM

neat post....very interesting.... ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 06:49 PM

ps, i tried that ASkS Jeeves site, but it didnt give me a good answer,i heard that ask jeeves is not people, it s just a computer , so probably thats why.john


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:04 PM

I dislike monkeys intensely. Have never understood how people find them so amusing. Worms and roaches get the same lukewarm response from me. Am I alone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:09 PM

well i heard monkeys are good eatin...they taste like chicken....


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: harvey andrews
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:12 PM

Well John, if the M62 branches off the M6 why isn't it still the M6?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Ely
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:23 PM

They aren't descended from monkeys; monkeys and humans had a common ancestor. Cattle and bison are descended from a common ancestor, too, but they aren't the same thing--so what's the problem?

At one time, there were probably different kinds of humans (or at least proto-humans) coexisting. Wrap your brain around that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:27 PM

" At one time, there were probably different kinds of humans (or at least proto-humans) coexisting"

Yes, and they were delicious. Tasted just like chicken.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:28 PM

John, I think that is the stupidest question anyone's asked on this forum in at least a year. Thanks for the good laugh! :-)

I wonder if monkeys sit around worrying about this kind of thing too?

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:30 PM

I met an orangutang once and I found him interesting, although it was quite unnerving to be stared at by something I was staring at - especially when I also believed it was trying to predict what I was going to do. I like monkeys and apes, but I feel a bit intimidated because I'm not sure how to act, and I just KNOW I'm being judged in some way. They're curious. Most animals only stare at you when they want part of your lunch.

John, some genes in a monkey changed enough for a pair to have babies that were slightly different. Later, a couple of those babies had babies that were slightly more different, and on down the millenia more changes kept getting added in until there were people who looked sort of like we do. While this was going on with the 'odd' branch of the family tree, other monkeys that were normal monkeys kept having normal monkey babies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Burke
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:35 PM

This is all wrong.

We are decended from refugees from a planet that orbited a sun that was going supernova. The ship that landed here was full of shopkeepers, minor bureaucrats & middle managers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:39 PM

“There may be monkey in some of you guys but there ain't no monkey in me.” from There Ain't No Bugs On Me.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:39 PM

thanks jeri, but how did the genes change to start with inthe first ones?
PS i have neber met a real monkey,but i have seen plenty og them on telly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:40 PM

Well, it's only a stupid question if you know the answer! If horses are decended from an eohippus, where's the eohippus? If birds and reptiles are decended from dinosaurs, where are the dinosaurs? (I know - their brains were small and they died.) They probably all tasted like chicken, but in that case, why are there chickens left?

The tough question isn't why there are still monkeys, but why there are still humans!


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:42 PM

waht do they eat anyway?, surly not just bananas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:50 PM

Genes go wonky all the time. Humans have got loads of genetic mutations we call birth defects. Some people are born with 6 fingers on each hand, 6 toes on each foot. Some have webbed feet and hands. Look at all the different breeds of domestic animals such as dogs, cats, horses. Each breed began because of genes that had changed. Nature does this sort of thing all the time, but if the 'different' offspring are different in a way which makes them more likely to survive, they will, and they'll continue to reproduce.

If the changes make them much more suited to their environment AND they're in competition with the originals, they could very well replace them. If the competition for food, territory, whatever, isn't that intense, both the originals and their different offspring can survive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:55 PM

thanks Jeri but if people are more clever than monkeys and survive better, can build houses and cars etc, and make wepons for catch food when why sidnt all of them monkeys die out thenwhen the people got all there food etc?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:56 PM

Ambrose Bierce has the answer...

MAN (noun)
An animal so lost in rapturous contemplation of what he thinks he is, as to overlook what he indubitably ought to be. His chief occupation is exterminating other animals and his own species, which, however, multiplies with such insistent rapidity as to infest the whole habitable earth, and Canada.

MONKEY (noun)
An arboreal animal which makes itself at home in genealogical trees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:59 PM

I Think I know, this what happnened [maybe anywae], the people was in the jungle, no, the monkeys was in the jungle , and some of them turned into humans, then left the wild areas, and builttowns and cities, so when they left, there was plenty of food left for the monkeys what was still there.john


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 08:01 PM

John, the people built SUVs and drove to McDonalds and the monkeys got all the bananas and tasty ants to themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 08:07 PM

so dont build to manty towns, becouse the monkeys wont have anywere to live.ps is there any wild monkeys in america? i dontmeen in zoos etc, i mean proper wild monkeys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 08:10 PM

ps, i just rememberd , thee is some wild monkeys in gibralter, and they can bite you, my frend called pete told me, he was a drug dealer, and they put him in jail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 09:34 PM

Maybe we shared a common ancestor. The entire theory of evolution is being re-thought. Don't know into what, but I have seent that statement in Yellow Peril (Nat'l Geographic) and Discovery Magizine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 10:17 PM

The fact is, John, it is merely a theory that all human beings (rather than just the ones who hang out at Durty Nellie's) are descendants of apelike ancestors. Got that? A theory. There are some bits of evidence which appear to support the theory, but they are not conclusive, except to those who have already made up their minds about the matter.

Note: apelike ancestors, NOT monkeys. Monkeys have tails. Apes don't. Apes include gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans...and possibly the yeti or Bigfoot (although there's no conclusive official proof about those fellows at this point).

Monkeys include a vast variety of creatures, large and small, all of whom have tails. We are by no means descended from monkeys. I frankly doubt that we are descended from apes either, but we may be. And...we and the apes may indeed be descended from a common ancestor. That's another theory.

I predict that in time new and quite different theories will become popular which will displace the "descended from apes" ones which are popular now...but we will probably be in some future incarnation at that point, and will take little notice of it. :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 02:46 AM

John,

There are no naturally occuring monkeys in North America. They live in South and Central America. There are a few places where captive monkeys have escaped or been released into the wild and reproduced, forming small colonies.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Gurney
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 03:10 AM

So, wouldn't ALL mammals be descended from a common ancestor? That seems to me to be more likely than a spontaneous outbreak of mammality (mammalism?)given that the (presumably) reptile genetics of that were a bit wobbly anyway, and always supposing Darwin was on the right track.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: GUEST,johnfromhull
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 08:56 AM

do monkeys really eat ants or is jeri making it up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 09:00 AM

They also eat termites...


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 09:02 AM

ididnt know that.john


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 09:03 AM

So does homo sapiens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 09:05 AM

As the creationist gorilla in the zoo said "Am I my keeper's brother?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: mooman
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 09:26 AM

John's question got me thinking to back when I was studying zoology and we had a specialist monkey behaviour lecture from a researcher (very young and pretty....and by the end of the evening highly embarassed...) at London Zoo (sorry....the Royal Zoological Society!).

Needless to say....that night almost all of the monkeys were shagging or playing with themselves apart from one or two who were assiduously shoving things up their backsides.

Which all in all has led me to believe that, in fact, there has been very little evolution at all...

Ooooh, ooooh ooooh!

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 04:52 PM

Monkeys ?
Click 'Ere
and

Click 'Ere

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 08:05 PM

Well, if a monkey can be elected Mayor of Hartlepool, I feel a whole lot better about trying to get my pet Vietnamese pot-bellied pig "Slim" elected King of Mississippi over on the "Mother of All BS Threads". As we were unsuccessful in that attempt, we may decide to run him for President in 2004. A pig would be at least as good as the horse's ass that's doin' the job now.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 10:55 PM

jOhn, you do ask the darndest things..........


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 11:52 PM

Amergen, they taste rather more like very gamey rubber bands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 01:57 AM

Oh, sort of like pheasant then? LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 02:49 AM

Chimps eat other monkeys too.... not just bananananas

(I know how to spell it, I just don't know when to stop)

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Gurney
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 03:20 AM

There are no naturally occurring monkeys in Hartlepool either, but one did hang around there for a while.....
Sorry, Geordie, couldn't resist it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: TIA
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 10:36 PM

"...it is merely a theory that all human beings (rather than just the ones who hang out at Durty Nellie's) are descendants of apelike ancestors. Got that? A theory..."

Please be careful not to confuse the scientific definition of theory with the colloquial definition of theory.

In science, a theory is an explanation of the workings behind an established fact.

In colloquy, a theory can be just a fanciful notion.

For example, no one disputes the fact of gravity (if you do, try dropping your keyboard and see what happens). But, there is no good theory of gravity. In fact, a theory of gravity consistent with both relativity and quantum mechanics is the holy grail of physics. So, the theory is poor, but the fact of gravity is quite demosntrable.

Likewise, the fact of evolution is indisputable. The theory of evolution is incomplete and undergoing constant revision, but the fact is secure - just ask a Chihuahua and a Saint Bernard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: rangeroger
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 01:21 AM

So, the Earth sucks?

rr


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Kaleea
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 03:05 AM

Gosh! Why is monkeys still monkeys? Quite a simple explanation. You see, monkeys, gorillas, orangatans, & other monkeys & apes observed the humans over the past few thousand years. They noticed that humans are greedy, have ridiculous & harmful behaviors, are easily angered & tend to wage war on all other life forms unlike them, as well as life forms which are like them--i.e.,other humans.    Then the monkeys & apes observed that the humans began to invent things, use raw materials to make things out of, some of the things were even invented for the sole purpose of harming other life forms, and thus "progress" came about. The monkeys & apes observed that the "progress" made the life of the humans more difficult & complicated. Then the "progress" began to destroy the world which the humans shared with all the other life forms. The humans did not choose to alter their "progress" to stop harming the world. The monkeys & apes decided that humans, with their puny human minds, were inferior, and so they decided not to mix it up with humans, to keep to themselves in the monkey & ape world as much as possible, and to keep the monkeys & apes free of the inferior human genes. And that's why monkeys is still monkeys!


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Gurney
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 05:23 AM

TIA, the word 'indisputable' means 'beyond doubt, unquestionable, certain, beyond dispute,' depending which dictionary you have.
LOTS of people (not me) dispute Evolution, for religeous and other reasons. 'Generally accepted' might be better.
I will argue, though, on your choice of canine extremes as an example of Evolution. They are the result of the selective breeding of 'sports'
by human agency rather than natural selection, and in the wild wouldn't see the end of the week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: JudeL
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 05:52 AM

No No No Burke, humans are the decendants of the "B" ark which was packed full of telephone sanitisers, hairdressers, advertising accounts executives, middle management types etc.........who were eveacuated from the planet Golgafrincham which was about to be eaten by a mutant star goat


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 07:52 AM

They were just a load of useless bastards..... I think their direct decendants are still around.... I know at least 6 in my office alone. Two of them nearly bred last year.... GAAHHHH!!!!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 08:28 AM

Obviously, evolution still has a ways to go in Hull..............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 09:20 AM

John, I once saw a show on TV which demonstrated humans weren't the only animal to use tools. The monkey would select a twig and strip it of leafy things, then stick it into an old rotting tree-stump and pull it out covered with...well, they might have been termites. Either ants or termites. Bugs. The monkey would then eat the bugs of the stick.

Perhaps one of the first things early humans did when they discovered fire was spear a cockroach and roast it. Now, we have marshmallows and sausages.

While many human cultures eat bugs, I never quite developed a taste for them despite having eaten a lot of them by accident. They're probably a lot healthier than mad cows or salmonella tainted chickens. I believe they're low in cholesterol too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 11:12 AM

I can't say for sure, but I believe that Neil Diamond wrote the vast majority of their songs, despite what the credits may indicate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 12:23 PM

Jeri,

Did you say sausages are descended from cockroaches?! EEEuhck! I understand chickens ate the last Bigfoot because he or she tasted just like monkey-meat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 12:30 PM

If you've never eaten chicken, what does chicken taste like?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 01:16 PM

Possum ? Spaw

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 01:56 PM

Monkey's stayed monkeys and we became human because monkey's won the toss!

Davebhoy


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Tweed
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 02:32 PM

Well JoHn, it's apparent to me that we are descended from the apes and of course Shatner is a prime example of a human who has not fallen far from the tree. The close set quizzical eyes... The gutteral sounds he makes while imitating the human practice of "singing". Possibly he possesses only half of the chromosone that distinguishes humans from the noble Chimpanzee. Is that possible? Are there others who would fit the Bill? Would Shatner, if barbecued, taste like chicken or would he just taste like shat? This is a remarkable thread and I predict may go over several hundred. You are a wizard JoH9 from Hull!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: TIA
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 02:40 PM

Au contraire Gurney... I'm stickin' with "indisputable". There's a flat earth society too, but that doesn't make the not-quite-round pear shape disputable.

Tool use in animals is fascinating. Chimps use tools, but crows don't just use tools, they make them! And squirrels are demonstrably smarter than me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 09:31 PM

I have no objections to the concept of evolution, TIA, and I agree that it's quite obvious. That doesn't necessarily lead me to the certain conclusion that humans are descended from an apelike ancestor, although it is definitely a possibility...

Nor does the theory of evolution in any way conflict with my spiritual notions about the soul, reincarnation, the afterlife, or anything else like that. I see now reason why evolution (physical evolution, I mean) and the soul (spiritual evolution) cannot coexist and work together in a useful fashion. In fact, the one may well be a reflection of the other.

Tweed - Brilliant link to Shatner. I would also suggest that his rampant libido bears a striking resemblance to that of the "bull ape" of such lurid pulp fiction as the famed Edgar Rice Burroughs stories. Shatner may, in fact, be the "missing link" for which scientists have long searched, and there he is right under their silly noses! Inform Harvard immediately, I say!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: TIA
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 10:48 PM

LH -

I agree entirely with both of your points (all three if you include Shatner). The exact origins of humankind are indeed murky, but you can be certain evolution was involved, and that the ancestors were rather apelike (although probably not at all like our modern apes). And, I too believe that evolution does not need to conflict with (most) spiritual belief systems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 11:27 PM

Nope, just with a few of them... :-) Literal-minded religious groups can be a real pain.

Thankfully, the exact origins of William Shatner are a matter of public record. He's Canadian, and is definitely a primitive, yet surprisingly gifted form of hominid...Kirkus Erectus. The strength of his genetic makeup ensures the continuance of his species for an indefinite period (he has a healthy and lovely daughter who may be seen on his website), and promises to usher in a whole new age of dramatic possibilities for the performing arts.

As for John from Hull, I think he is just trying to make monkeys out of the lot of us.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 06:50 AM

TIA, I URGE you not to make disparaging comments about Flat-Earthers!
They are a growing force, and if their High-Priest, Terry Prachett, tells them to, they will come around to your house and beat you to death with computer mice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:42 PM

I can't really see any harm in someone believing the World is flat if that's what makes them feel good. :-) Believing in "trickle-down economics", on the other hand, has caused a great deal of harm. One should pick one's beliefs carefully, bearing in mind the impact they may have on others. This is more important than merely being "right" all the time, I think.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Peg
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:50 PM

There's a great new film coming out June 27th called 28 Days Later directed by Danny Boyle.

In the opening scenes, animal rights activists break into a laboratory to liberate some chimpanzees being used for experiments. A lab technician begs the activists not to release the chimps because they are highly contagious: they've been infected with a virus which keeps them in a constant state of psychotic rage. One chimp is strapped down in front of a bank of monitors all showing different images of violence.

When the chimps are released, they immediately attack and infect the humans (the virus is spread through blood to bloodstream contact, so in addition to being scratched or bitten, one can be infected when the attacker vomits copious amounts of blood onto its victim, which this virus seems to ensure will happen 99% of the time), and a viral Armageddon is unleashed...28 days later, the whole of London is wiped out...a few survivors remain.

Absolutely brilliant film, I have been unable to stop thinking about since I saw a press screening last week. Major cities in the US have a sneak preview on Friday the 13th. I understand it did well in the UK. I can't wait to see it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 06:14 PM

That's a pretty dramatic storyline, Peg. Like I said, beliefs that lead directly to actions which harm others are pretty undesirable beliefs, whereas believing the Earth is flat does nothing but provide amusement and a feeling of smug superiority for all those who believe it's round...more fun for everyone, in other words.

My belief is that the Earth is actually kidney-shaped. I realize there's little or no evidence to support such a notion...but...it could explain why most of the surface of the planet is covered in water.

By the way, I think it would have to be a VERY stupid bunch of animal rights activists who would not hesitate and back off, when advised that the chimps were infected in that fashion...but that's what you need to get a lively movie plot rolling...some people who simply will not listen to reason.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 07:07 PM

Well, LH, from personal experience, the PETA People are almost that crazy. Friends of Animal and Greenpeace sometimes come close, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Peg
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 08:45 PM

I used to work for Greenpeace. Sanest bunch of people I've ever known.

There are many ironies in the story line of the film...By wanting to free teh chimps from being forced into violent behavior, they exposed the human race to this virulent epidemic of violence (thus reducing them to "animals."

But even more interesting is what the film has to say about the nature of the killing instinct. Once someone is "infected" there is between 10 and 20 seconds before the victim goes mad and starts tearing apart everything in sight and vomiting blood thus spreading the virus...so they must be killed instantly, even if seconds before they were your best friend or father...mild-mannered bike couriers must turn into utter mercenaries. There is also a fascinating plot twist which suggests that the implementation of martial law and the rounding up of women as chattel/cattle may be an even worse development than the virus which turns everyone into killing machines...some people, in other words, don't need an excuse to behave in a depraved manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 11:20 PM

Sounds like a good Hollywood excuse for an incredible amount of bloodshed and violence. I am finding it harder and harder to believe that it could possibly be a good movie or a movie I would ever want to see, but if it was made in England, maybe. The English have more class when it comes to films, and far better scripts, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Peg
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:34 AM

There's no accounting for tastes, Little Hawk. I thought it was brilliant and provocative. I am not bothered by violence in films, though I have no desire to sit through your typical Hollywood action flick, either...

Not all American films suck...there are a great many films from independent filmmakers well worth seeing, and once in a while Hollywood makes a good one...


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 01:06 PM

I'm not bothered by violence either, if it's done intelligently and the script is good. A good script does not beat the viewer into submission. I agree that Hollywood occasionally makes a good one. One category of film I have almost no interest in is horror films (unless they are done for laughs...like "Tremors"...that was really entertaining). I guess I don't have much of an emotional need to be terrified. I'm puzzled why other people do. (Oh, and the horror films almost never actually scare me...I've seen the odd one here and there that did...they just annoy me, because they are so idiotic.)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 06:29 PM

heloo,wahts,that,got,too,doo,with,monkeys,then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 01:06 AM

Apparently, John, Peg was pointing out that sick monkeys vomit. After being infected with Budweiser, as was statistically proven last week end when one hundred monkeys were infected then voluntarily forced to watch NASCAR; and, increasing their intake of the poison within minutes they were violent, vomiting in the rest rooms and writing "for a good time call Sally" in the stalls.

The civilized homininid, however, drinks Bass while eating curried, pickled eggs, watching football. While still prone to violence, rather than vomiting, noxious odors are emitted in volume sufficient, scientist believe, to power a motor car if contained and compressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 02:13 AM

Particularly in Spaw's case. In fact, he can do it without the Bass, and prefers to, specially if it's the talking one on the plaque.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 03:39 PM

John, I've had three monkeys as pets. The first one was a Squirrel Monkey- they're the small greenish, freckled ones that often are allowed to run free in zoos.

The other two were Capuchin. Entertaining and bright but determined and strong and distructive.

They ate mostly commercial Monkey Chow but they liked most everything. For instance, Jeannie, the female Capuchin, loved uncooked spaghetti and I let her have it for an occasional treat. Jimmy loved hairy-armed men; he'd lie in their arms and cry into their faces...

I often let Freckles stay out of his cage overnight, and he'd curl up under my chin to sleep. I'd awake when his tiny fingers very gently opened one of my eyelids; the first thing I saw in the mornings was his warm brown eye looking tenderly into mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:05 PM

John:

I suggest you read The Blind Watchmaker, or any of several other books by Richard Dawkins, who has a marvelous lucid way of explaining Darwin to the untutored and / or confused of the world. Maybe its just yer broken keyboard but you appear to qualify...


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:39 PM

From the posts on this thread John, I suggest you NEVER vist Hartlepool, or enrol at the Unseen University.

Oook !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 07:08 PM

Don't you just love the way they start with those little, tentative "ook, ook, ook" sounds, and then build up to full-throated shrieks of excitement?

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:17 PM

June 11 — Scientists have unearthed three 160,000-year-old human skulls in Ethiopia that are the oldest known and best-preserved fossils of modern humans' immediate predecessors. The nearly complete skulls of an adult male and a child and the partial skull of a second adult appear to represent a crucial stage of human evolution when the facial features of modern humans arose.

The entire article, if it doesn't disappear....Click!


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys, Men and "X"?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:37 PM

Ya know, it's downright amazing to think that the arrival of our very species is viewed as occurring no further back than 200K years. An individual in his life has a near-range of about 100 years between his own experience and that he has heard about from those he knows or their parents. You can probably conceive readily enough of the nature of change in our world between 1903 and now. At full maturity, a well-connected human adult can see with somecertainty perhaps 90 years back and 10 forward.

That means that there are only 2,000 steps back to the shore of Lake Adis Ababa, or whatever it was called, when the early homo sap was sorting out which end of the stick to hold. Maybe 3,000 allowing for some overlap.

Now, I can't even predict with any certainty where we will have gotten to in 2103. That's just ONE hundred-year forward leap. 2203 is even harder for me to imagine. That's two steps.

What can you say about three steps forward -- 2303? All bets vanish in the mists of future. But we can look back hundreds, or even thouands of centuries with some clarity.

Because the rate of change has accelerated so dramatically we will be breaking through into unknown territory faster in the next hundred years than 'we' ever did in the past 1000 or 2000 years, let alone the past 2,000 centuries.

It is gonna be interesting. That's for certain!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 12:26 AM

My feeling is that we've been around a lot longer than that. I figure several million years. I may be wrong, of course. I was wrong once in 1972. I said this bird was going to fly off a fence before this other bird, and it didn't. Imagine that! Anyway, like I was saying...


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 05:17 AM

Another suggestion for a good read on the subject, is "The Third Chimpanzee" by Jared Diamond.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 05:35 AM

For some reason the title is sometimes "The Rise and Fall of the Third Chimpanzee", and sometimes just "The Third Chimpanzee".


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: GUEST,alinact
Date: 14 Jun 03 - 12:55 PM

Heard a story at the pub the other night that the people swear is true - or they were just trying to take the mickey out of a visiting Aussie.

Anyway, the story goes that during the Napoleonic wars, a monkey was washed up on a beach up Newcastle way (presumably a pet of some matelot who was shipwrecked) and when the locals, who obviously lived very sheltered lives back then, found it they thought it was a Frenchman, so they hung (hanged?)it.

I'm not saying whether I believe it or not but has anybody ever heard of this? and, if it is true, surely there has to have been a song created about it?

Allan


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 02:10 AM

The Film 28 Days Later is good.
The DVD version has Alternative endings as a bonus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:52 AM

Jeri wirtes:
"John, I once saw a show on TV which demonstrated humans weren't the only animal to use tools. The monkey would select a twig and strip it of leafy things, then stick it into an old rotting tree-stump and pull it out covered with...well, they might have been termites. Either ants or termites. Bugs. The monkey would then eat the bugs of the stick. "

        

Chimpanzees they were... at least an ape, a fellow primate, not monkey... and some anthropologists today place Chimps in the hominid line, as our common ancestor was more hominid than ape... which also speaks to the post about early hominids living at the same time, there is likely two hominids today... chimps and folks have only one enzime different in our dna ... as apposed to the closest primate which has hundreds of enzimes different...

and why are there still monkeys? Someone has to hold the cup for organ grinders...


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:53 AM

forgot to sign the above, that was Larry and best to all... (but you all knew that from the bad spelling....)


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 08:02 AM

Years ago I read a book called the Aquatic Ape, which suggested that humans have features developed from living for millenia by the sea. we have a lot of features that are different from apes, but are similar to aquatic animals.

aquatic ape theory


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Pied Piper
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 08:09 AM

Evolution is a theory based on evidence in the same way that rebirth is fact based on superstition and scientific illiteracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:50 AM

Species are still around because they are still successful at thriving in their environments.. When they cease to be, they cease to BE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 11:17 AM

Until that time, give the gist of a subscription to this magazine to your favourite chimpanzee for Xmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: GUEST,PPP Heathcare
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:51 AM

Munkeys can type shackspear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:13 AM

It's a curious thing...

I don't think I've ever seen a lay discussion of evolution that did not "devolve" *snicker* into a description of adaptation, not evolution.

Creation doesn't refute adaptation and evolution doesn't require it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:04 AM

Please define "evolution" and "adaptation" according to your understanding of the terms, Jim Tailor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:53 AM

HL Mencken:

"Darwin was wrong. Man's STILL an ape!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:56 AM

adaptation is a subtractive process whereby an organism, in response to its environment, over some generation's time, opts for one of many possibilities already within its genetic makeup.

evolution requires a "monster" -- a step not within the genetic options already within that organism.

Almost all discussion (as far as I've read) has been explanations of how the changes necessary for survival could have been anticipated and called for on the one hand, and questions over irreduceable complexity on the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:58 AM

"opts" isn't a very good word -- the genetic manifestation that is not as useful for survival is merely bred into non-manifestation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 10:26 AM

Given the amount of DNA that is not "used" in the building of an individual, if I understand it correctly, there's no telling what the number of combinations already available for adaptation in the genes might be.

But I think this distinction is not really important, ezcept rhetorically. Leaving the preferences of religious organizations to one side, the organism produces off-spring which have slightly or dramatically different traits --a human with slightly stronger fingers, say.

That human, being better at barred chords, makes better music, and attracts more mates.

As a result he has more children than some other humans. The strong-fingers gene-shift persists in the subsequent generation and gets cross bred into other family trees thus spreading through a per centage of the species.

Obviously, the consequence is the same whether the code for strong fingers is in the genetic makeup or was a freak reaction of a cell being hit by a gamma ray or something.

I think this "monster" theory is just a rhetorical device designed to make evolutionary theory appear discreditable.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 10:36 AM

barre chords are so passe', so yesterday. Three note chord melodies are the way of the future. I guess you're, you know, headed for extinction. That Pizzarelli boy's getting all the breeding stock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 10:37 AM

(by the way -- the "monster theory" is evolutionary theory -- not a refutation of same)


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 10:52 AM

You're both wrong (re: guitar chords). The wave of the future (the next evolutionary step) is accordions sans polkas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 11:06 AM

Jim:

I'd like to know the basis for the assertion that only changes not included in existing genetic material are considered valid evolution. It seems to me that the change in genetic structure caused by an adaptation is just as valid an evolutionary change as one caused by an accidental breakdown of a molecular chain somewhere.

Do you know the ratio between total genetic material and those genes used to express characteristics of the individual?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 11:13 AM

Let's be clear: Evolution is what we all see: That different animals such as dinosaurs, and different species of mammals and insects, existed in eras gone by at different periods.
Darwin's theory of Natural Selection is one among many to explain why we find the evidence of evolution, and is by far the most scientifically accepted such theory.

If by 'monster' you mean a step-wise change in an animal that then is either 'accepted' or 'rejected' by whether it survives or does not survive in nature, the common term in use is: mutation.

AS to whether or not one can put a value of chance on such occurrences, it depends on how you put together your initial conditions. All the declarations on how rare it would be for life to occur 'randomly' either are not very well defined, or indicate that life is a rare occurrence in the known universe, which complies with existing knowldge.

A common misperception of evolutionary theory is that somehow we (life) are becoming more advanced, or that there is some predestination in which some intelligent handsome creatures such as ourselves are the logical 'result'. This is the rankest of anthropomorphic attitudes.

We are simply the latest thing to come along, at best we are an intermediate form along the journey of time.

There is no biblical denial here. We are the latest of God' experiments. God will know when He's done, not us.

The main conflict between the religious and the scientific is lack of humility on the part of both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 11:23 AM

God, in my opinion, is a democratic verb, and we'll know when its done. This Supra pluribus Unum notion is alien to my nature, sorry.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 11:26 AM

I'd like to know the basis for the assertion that only changes not included in existing genetic material are considered valid evolution.

'snot what I'm sayin, y'know?

I'm saying that the distinguishing difference between evolution and creation is not adaptation -- it is in how the jumps occur. And how the jumps occur is not adaptation. (as robo has chimed in, some are satisfied that the jumps are "mutations", others are not thus satisfied -- hence, a less exacting term "monster".)


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 11:27 AM

oh, and accordians are definitely a monster jump in evolution! There is hope for all because of the accordian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:03 PM

LOL like I said, such jumps are not necessarily an improvement!


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:26 PM

Evolve or face extinction, robomatic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:41 PM

LOL again. I'm willing to refine my statement to allow for the quality of the airpusher. AND I have an Einstein accordion T SHirT.

But I also know the joke about perfect pitch...


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:13 PM

Oh yeah!!! robomatic said:

"The main conflict between the religious and the scientific is lack of humility on the part of both sides."

That ought to be written in solid gold, seven stories high, and put up on Mount Rushmore. Good stuff, robomatic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 06:58 PM

you'd put an obviously vague and misleading proposition on Mt. Rushmore? *grin*

"You mean life is NOT a 3-legged kettle?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 10:37 PM

Life can be seen as a 3-legged kettle, I suppose. Why not? :-)


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