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Customized Harmony Workshops

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Ebbie 17 May 03 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Johnny in OKC 17 May 03 - 06:20 PM
Crane Driver 17 May 03 - 06:30 PM
KateG 17 May 03 - 06:43 PM
Ebbie 17 May 03 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,Johnny in OKC 18 May 03 - 01:45 AM
GUEST,noddy 18 May 03 - 07:18 AM
Mark Cohen 18 May 03 - 07:26 AM
black walnut 18 May 03 - 08:28 AM
Frankham 18 May 03 - 11:27 AM
Cluin 18 May 03 - 09:35 PM
Ebbie 19 May 03 - 12:01 AM
Burke 19 May 03 - 06:27 PM
bradfordian 19 May 03 - 07:24 PM
Trevor 20 May 03 - 04:15 AM
Mark Cohen 20 May 03 - 05:48 AM
Marje 20 May 03 - 06:51 AM
Ebbie 20 May 03 - 04:57 PM
M.Ted 21 May 03 - 12:22 PM
Ebbie 21 May 03 - 05:44 PM
Frankham 21 May 03 - 08:15 PM
M.Ted 21 May 03 - 09:02 PM
Kaleea 22 May 03 - 02:58 AM
Abuwood 22 May 03 - 03:22 AM
M.Ted 22 May 03 - 10:23 AM
Ebbie 22 May 03 - 10:53 AM
Marje 22 May 03 - 11:08 AM
Frankham 22 May 03 - 12:01 PM
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Subject: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 May 03 - 05:17 PM

I love harmonies, both vocal and instrumental. Unfortunately I am not a good harmony singer. My harmonies tend to be bland, predictable, non-interesting things. I've noticed the same thing about many other people and yet, we all love the stuff.

I have gone to harmony workshops but have learned precious little, due primarily to my own denseness. I got to thinking that maybe I could devise a way to present harmony through which people like me could learn.

I'm thinking of creating a lesson plan, an agenda that I can present to some singers and players I know who do wonderful harmonies. Some of these people proceed from instinct while some of them work out harmonies and parts on the piano but in every case they end up with fresh, supportive tunes that complement the melodies beautifully.

Here's what I'm thinking of proposing:

A one or two-day harmony workshop, say from 11:00 to 6:00 the first day and from noon to 5:00 the second. There would be no more than 10 or 12 'learners' present and 3-5 instructors.

The first couple of hours would deal with music theory, personal methods and demonstrations of results. Then the students would all be given one single piece of music or song, divided into pairs or threesomes and separated. They would be given, say, an hour to work out some kind of one or two part harmony.

Then they'd come together again and share what they've worked out.   They would be bound to have come up with several different treatments of the same piece, and there'd be a discussion on that.

After a break, there would be more music theory and demonstrations of how 'they' do it. Then the paired students would each be issued a piece or a song different from the others and they'd be given another hour of intensive work. If there's too much involved for one day we could add the second day.

There would be handouts and diagrams and some inspirational stuff.

What do you think? Would this work? Are there any obvious concepts or problems that I'm missing? What other things might be added?

These people would almost all be known to each other and some already do sing together on a regular basis.


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: GUEST,Johnny in OKC
Date: 17 May 03 - 06:20 PM

What songs are you going to use, to harmonize with?
How many parts? Where will the workshop be?
When do we start?


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Crane Driver
Date: 17 May 03 - 06:30 PM

Don't downplay the importance, in harmony singing, of a strong voice to sing the TUNE! I've heard three strong, instinctive harmony singers singing together - and none of them singing the actual melody. You could more or less work out the tune by the gaps where none of them were singing, but if your harmonies aren't particularily interesting (mine are terrible), perhaps you should concentrate on being the strong melody person who makes the harmonies possible. It's a very important job, even if it's not as 'glamourous' as singing the actual harmonies. Someone has to do it!

Andrew


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: KateG
Date: 17 May 03 - 06:43 PM

Crane Driver brings back memories of the aftermath of a lovely Christmas party many moons ago. My husband and another friend and I ware walking back to the subway singing carols. Both my husband and Phyllis loved to improvise harmonies, which they did, leaving me to take the melody. In those days my ear training and sense of pitch were not what they should be. I felt like I was hanging onto the correct melody line with all my fingers and toes. I did it, but by the time the train rolled up, I was exhasted!


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 May 03 - 09:26 PM

I have a strong voice- however, it is also low. It's best suited to Appalachian folk, Primitive Baptist and other milk-the-pathos types! In other words, I don't have a high, clear, pretty voice that leads well. If I had good harmonies, I would feel better about my singing, all 'round.

JohnnyinOKC, I'm glad that it piqued your interest! I'm in Alaska so just get in your car and head north. (I'm the house on the corner!)


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: GUEST,Johnny in OKC
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:45 AM

Ebbie, the best harmonizers are the Barbershoppers
and you might get some good (free) training. Look
for SPEBSQSA website. Alaska is a little further
going than I had planned. JOHNNY


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 18 May 03 - 07:18 AM

where and when?


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 18 May 03 - 07:26 AM

This is off the topic of your workshop, but a way to improve your harmony singing is to listen to some duets (Simon & Garfunkel, or the album of gospel duets by Ricky Scaggs and Tony Rice, or anything you like), pick a song you're familiar with, and just match the harmony line. Do that A LOT. It gives you practice in singing harmonies without having to make them up. Then try singing along with a recording of someone who has a strong voice and relatively simple melodies with strong standard chords--I used Gordon Lightfoot a lot--and trying to find the harmonies. Another thing that helps is to hang out with groups of good singers who like to sing harmonies: if you ever get down to the Bay Area, try the San Francisco Folk Music Club's New Year's gathering, Camp Harmony. (Hey, it's warmer than Alaska--though chillier than Hawaii!)

The whole idea is to give both your ear and voice lots of practice, in a setting where the harmonies are already there, and then gradually moving into a setting where they aren't.   

I find that I can find harmonies fairly easily now, while 15 or 20 years ago, even though I was singing a lot, it was beyond me. And I feel that I learned it, not from classes or workshops (which I tried), but as a result of continued practice and listening...one day I just found myself able to do it. So don't give up.

If you want to hear some brilliantly inventive harmonies, see if you can find a recording by Rebel Voices, Janet Stecher and Susan Lewis from Seattle.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: black walnut
Date: 18 May 03 - 08:28 AM

Good ideas Mark.
~ b.w.


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Frankham
Date: 18 May 03 - 11:27 AM

AS a model, you might try harmonies in thirds and sixths. Then try some in fifths. Even if a use of these intervals doesn't always fit the chords, they can be modified to do so.

Another way is to have the group just sing the chords of a song by each member taking the root, third or fifth and sometimes the 7th of the chords. Have them sing a wall of harmony duplicating the chords by taking their own "voices". Use a two-chord song to start with. This helps tune the ear to the chord harmonies and helps the person derive their harmony part from this source.

Another way is for each student to write down or remember a specific harmony part and test it against the melody. Does it work? How does it need to be modified?

The best harmony part in my view are ones that are not contrived but flow naturally from the harmonizer. The best arrangements of folk or bluegrass or whatever come from those who know how to harmonize and don't follow someone else's arrangments. The group makes it's own arrangment.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Cluin
Date: 18 May 03 - 09:35 PM

I agree with your last paragraph whole-heartedly, Frank.

But I hate hearing 3-part harmony where they just sing the chords. I was in a group that did that all the time and it was BORING. It did nothing to lift the songs, it only weighed them down.

Personally, I like 2 part harmonies. So many more opportunities for expression, whether from straight 1st & 3rd like Phil & Don to more creative warblings, I liked not being "locked in" by too many voices.


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:01 AM

Great ideas, folks. Don't stop now!


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Burke
Date: 19 May 03 - 06:27 PM

I went to a half day Harmony workshop with Ginny Hawker & Tracy Schwartz last fall. It did not begin to be enough, but here's what I learned or realized.

It would really help to have a partner to work with over time. You can pick the songs to work on & play around with the sounds. There's no time for this kind of thing in a workshop.

Listening to the harmonies on recordings is a really good idea. It's a lot easier to pick out the harmonies in duets. We were given a pretty long list of duet singers to check out.

A longer workshop at a folk week would probably be much better. I'm pretty sure these exist.

The people I know who seem to do the best extemp. harmonies are people who sing lots & lots of harmonies from written music. They've internalized the kinds of patterns that happen & get a sense for what works. Most of the ones I know are church choir people, but also Sacred Harp singers. It's not the anthems that they learn from, it's the half dozen hymns a week that teach them.

For interesting mult-part harmonies nothing beats the Shape Note collections like Sacred Harp or Southern Harmony.


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: bradfordian
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:24 PM

Keith Kendrick & Lynne Heraud do harmony workshops (as weel as all the other stuff listed on the site). Ebbie, it may be worth your while contacting them if only for advice.

Brad.


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Trevor
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:15 AM

I think that you've hit on something Ebbie, with your concern not just for the content but also the way in which it is put across. I'm really interested in people's ideas about delivery of this kind of stuff. I've been working for years on trying to find interesting ways of getting esoteric stuff across to all sorts of people, groups and individuals. I reckon that at least some of those who would be interested in a workshop like this would want to know about the process of harmony as well as the end result. . I wonder how long it would take to get from Shropshire to Alaska on my bike........


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 20 May 03 - 05:48 AM

Not very long if you put the bike on a plane...though it might get a little cold down there in the baggage compartment. Still, it would get you prepared for Alaska!

Ebbie, Seattle and vicinity is practically in your back yard--you should check out the Puget Sound Guitar Workshop. LOTS of harmony singing there, as well as more guitar and acoustic music classes than you can shake a tambourine at. I was there one year when Pat Wright was on the faculty--she leads Seattle's Total Experience Gospel Choir. A week of learning gospel songs by ear in 4-part harmony, culminated by a performance that had the whole place teary-eyed and uplifted and absolutely joy-filled...not half bad.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Marje
Date: 20 May 03 - 06:51 AM

You say that most of your participants would know each other and some already sing together, which is a great start. From my experience of such workshops, though, I'd think about whether you can specify the sort of level of skill and knowledge you're going to cater for.

I'm saying this because you may get people who are very keen but have absolutely no idea how to sing a harmony; at the other extreme you may have singers who already sing harmonies competently and want to find more intereseting or sophisticated ways of doing this. It's not always esey to cater for both extremes. If your tutors have to take a lot of time explaining what a key or a chord or an interval is - or even what a harmony is - this will bore your more skilled singers. But if the basics are overlooked, the beginners will flounder and get nothing out of it.

If you're going to specify a particular level - say, people who have some knowledge and experience of harmonies (or, OTOH, people who haven't)it should be OK. Otherwise you might want to think about splitting your group and letting different tutors take separate groups, perhaps coming together for the last hour or so for a big sing.

Oh, and do make it clear to the participants whether it's a requirement that they should be able to read music or not. I'd say, myself, that learning to sing harmonies from a written score is not a very useful skill in the folk world, and that it would be better to concentrate on improvising harmonies by ear (which is also more "inclusive").


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:57 PM

...a way to improve your harmony singing is to listen to some duets (Simon & Garfunkel, or the album of gospel duets by Ricky Scaggs and Tony Rice, or anything you like), pick a song you're familiar with, and just match the harmony line. Do that A LOT. Mark Cohen Good idea, Mark, and I'll work on it. I'm listening to quite a few singers now- but I'm just not getting it. If they sang songs I already know,songs that are suited to my voice, maybe it would help, I don't know. 'The Harmony Singers' with Peggy Seeger is one helpful one. Great harmonies. But there's really not one song on the album I have that I would learn even though they are fun to sing along with.

JohnnyinOKC, Barbershop is not a bad idea. But I'm trying to stay away from the soprano/alto/tenor/baritone/bass by-the-note harmonies. Some people sing such terrific harmony and yet it isn't predictable or stiff.

Frankham, I like everything you said! I'm already planning to use some of your suggestions before I even proceed on the harmony workshop idea.

Personally, I like 2 part harmonies. So many more opportunities for expression, whether from straight 1st & 3rd like Phil & Don to more creative warblings Cluin Three part harmony singing just the chords isn't a bad place to start! As we get more proficient and more sure of ourselves, maybe we'll get more adventurous.

It would really help to have a partner to work with over time. You can pick the songs to work on & play around with the sounds. Burke Thankfully, I do have a person who is as interested in this as I (and lives just down the street!) The two of us have been working at it. I have a couple of recordings of Sacred Harp singing, but I have to learn the songs before I'll work on their arrangements.

Trevor, I picture you pedaling away across the face of the moon... That would be the most direct way to get here from Shropshire, no doubt. Do stay in touch and post any ideas and suggestions that may occur to you in how to present the learning process.

Mark, I keep thinking that I'll get to Seattle one of these times for some of those festivals but I never have. The main reason is that they're put on in the summertime and all summer long I'm busy with this house museum and our drop-in tourists. By the way, we too say that Seattle is 'practically in our back yard' but in reality, Seattle is more than 900 air miles away from Juneau. It's just that it's the closest one!

Marje, the beginning group would be people I am already friendly with and sing with and pretty much know their level of expertise and what they want to learn. Later, who knows, maybe we'll start advertising and get more groups started. Juneau is already a very musical town; I can't imagine a more wonderful development than that the 'man on the street' should break into harmony!

I'm going to start thinking of what we students can pay the instructors. In Juneau, we do a lot of reciprocal house sitting and things of that nature- maybe in addition to not a lot of money we can make it worth their while. (The proposed instructors are also friends, good musicians that we already go to hear in concert and feel fortunate to have them come to our song circles.)


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 03 - 12:22 PM

I am a little late here, but may help a little anyway. One thing that is important when you are trying to learn to write harmony parts(and, unless you are simply copying someone else's, you are writing, even if it is at the moment you perform it) is to have a real clear idea of what the rules for that kind of harmony part are. Then, you can work it out on a keyboard or a guitar(guitar is especially helpful for working out harmonies, because once you have found the voicing that you want, you can move it as a block up and down the neck) and you don't have to spend a lot of time playing records over and over again trying to hear where the harmony part is.

For instance, one sort of harmony simply follows the melody, a minor or major third below it(depending on which is in the key--in C a G would be harmonized with E, a minor third down, but B would be harmonized with G, a major third down).

Another sort of harmony follows the chord, instead of the melody, so that the harmony note stays the same until the chord changes, and then moves to the nearest note in the new chord(ie, in C, starting on a C and staying there till the chord changed to G7, then sliding down to a B).

A third kind of harmony part actually follows the melody in unison until the end of a phrase, when it
moves to a note in the chord(a different one from the melody note!)(Fifties vocal groups, like the Four Freshman, etc, often did this)--

A fourth kind would be to use a variation of the melody.

Many times, a harmony part is really one of the five different species of counterpoint (Kinds five to nine, which I won't go into here ).

Then there are the various call and response types, which "answer" the melody at the ends of phrases with rhythmic/melodic ideas(DooWop is like this)

And, there is a sort of harmony part that is a repeating rhythmic/melodic figure which can either vary to follow chordal changes(diatonic/classical) or not(modal).

There are probably others that I just can't think of--but you can see that once you have an idea how the harmony part works, it moves you from imitating to creating--


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 May 03 - 05:44 PM

M'sieur Ted, have you thought about putting on a harmony workshop in Juneau, Alaska!


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Frankham
Date: 21 May 03 - 08:15 PM

Cluin, I was referring to the 3-part chord singing as an exercise, not a final product. It gives people a feeling of where they fit in a harmony.

Now that I think about it though, there are situations where it would work as a backup to a solist. Often, Bluegrass harmonies are based on three-part triads where the parts are fluid in ornamentation as in barbershop harmony. There is the tenor, melody and baritone part.

Two part harmony is of course as you say, more fluid in that the "lines" can move about more. The more voices you have, the less movement in the harmony part.

There is a joy and excitement in having a large group of people sing in three-part chordal harmony. Anyone who's been to a Pete Seeger concert knows what I mean.

Ebbie, Counterpoint lines can come out of "call and response" type songs. Jazz musicians refer to a "riff". This is a simple rhythmic counter-line that goes under the lead vocalist. African-American gospel music employs this a lot. An example might be Pete's rendition of "Wimoweh" which is really a "riff" of sorts. Count Basie is known for his "riffs" under jazz soloists.

When starting to learn harmony, I believe it's important to stress simplicity and not try to do too much. Sometimes just holding one note out over a few chords is a good idea. Harmonies should not be intrusive and violate the content of the melody line.

Well, then there's Bach whose harmony lines were more melodic than the church hymns that he harmonized.

One think I've noticed about rules in music, every one of them was made to be broken at some time or other.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 03 - 09:02 PM

Ebbie,

I can write harmonies, and can explain how things work(at least the ones that I've pulled apart), but it took me about 20 years to figure out how to do the singing part of it, and that still has its good days and bad days. When it comes to the performing and teaching part of it, Frank Hamilton is your man on this stuff--I even hesitated to post here, because he's done the time and lived to tell about it--let this comment of his be your golden rule:"I believe it's important to stress simplicity and not try to do too much."

Would love to come up to Alaska, though, and someday--


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Kaleea
Date: 22 May 03 - 02:58 AM

You don't know how to sing harmony, you say you are not good at singing harmony, have taken workshops but didn't learn how to sing harmony from them--yet you think you are going invent an agenda, a lesson plan, and somehow manage to teach others how to do this thing which you do not understand nor know how to do..................hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
    I am a music educator, have been singing harmony since about the age of 5--no, I am not kidding--have directed many choirs over many years, and I CAN & DO know how, as well as how to teach singing to others. The point being, I am a professional in the very thing you are seeking to learn. Why do you not find a professional and take voice lessons, which can assist you in developing your "ear" and let the professional assist you in learning about singing harmony. Only with proper training can someone have the ability to sing harmony. To teach this ability takes a great deal more education and training. Think about it. Seek out a good voice instructor and explain what you desire to learn. Then, maybe you can attempt to teach what you have learned.


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Abuwood
Date: 22 May 03 - 03:22 AM

I am not very far from Shropshire Trevor, and we did an excellent harmony workshop with Quatrz at Upton. There was none of this fancy written stuff which would only confuse me, but with them behind us Steve found his base and I was able to wander around much more. I have discovered that some folk clubs in the South book acts to do a workshop during the day and a concert in the evening. Is this something you could organise? I think I know 4 willing volunteers from this area.


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 May 03 - 10:23 AM

Ebbie wants to find someone who can teach the program that she has mapped out. Kaleea--perhaps you are available?


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 03 - 10:53 AM

Right, M.Ted. I hadn't found her to be arrogant before- but I suspect that she is not a teacher I would cultivate.

Check back, Kaleea. The outline I laid out was an effort to visualize a lesson plan I would respond to.


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Marje
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:08 AM

Kaleea, I don't agree that you need to be trained to sing harmony.

A friend of mine (English) did some teaching in Africa, and was astonished that when she taught small children a song by singing a melody to them, they sang it back to her in multi-part harmony. It was simply something they'd always In fact, she had difficulty getting some of them to sing the melody.

I've been able to sing harmonies as long as I can remember, and it has just seemed an obvious sort of thing to do - no-one ever told me I couldn't, and it was only in adulthood that I became aware what a mystery it was to many people. If you've been doing it since the age of 5, you must have managed it without professional training too.
I know lots of amateur singers who sing harmonies with great skill, and most of them don't really know much about the theory or how they do it.

Singing in choirs and listening to lots of harmony helps, of course, and nowadays there's more opportunity than ever before for everyone to do these things. I agree that working with a professional can help people develop their skill, as well as all sorts of aspects of musicality, and that's why Ebbie suggested a programme. She wasn't planning to teach it herself, but to find others to take it on. In fact, I think someone who only half understands a subject may be just the best person to plan the outline of a training session, as they'll have a good awareness of the needs of other singers. I hope that whoever she gets to do it encourages people to believe it's an easy and natural thing to do, and build up their confidence.


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Subject: RE: Customized Harmony Workshops
From: Frankham
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:01 PM

Pete Seeger used to say "I'd rather be a professional amateur than an amateur professional.":)

Singing harmony is a natural thing to do. IMHO, the best way to do it is to do it more. Trial and error is a good way. No one can ever know enough about music. Even professional musicians.

Point is: one of the best ways to learn something is to teach it.
Ebbie, sounds like you'd be a good teacher. You might be being too hard on yourself in which case this sounds like what the best musicians that I know say about themselves . Your course proposal is excellent and you might be the person to implement it. You could at least get it going and maybe find out that you don't need a lot of help. You know what's required because you've outlined it.

Frank Hamilton


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