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God Bless America at Jays Game

*daylia* 13 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM
Cluin 13 Apr 03 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,pdc 12 Apr 03 - 01:12 PM
catspaw49 12 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,pdc 12 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM
*daylia* 12 Apr 03 - 10:55 AM
*daylia* 11 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM
Hester 11 Apr 03 - 10:28 AM
*daylia* 11 Apr 03 - 07:43 AM
*daylia* 11 Apr 03 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,pdc 11 Apr 03 - 01:05 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 10 Apr 03 - 10:43 PM
GUEST,guest 10 Apr 03 - 10:33 PM
SINSULL 10 Apr 03 - 06:04 PM
Hester 10 Apr 03 - 05:57 PM
catspaw49 10 Apr 03 - 07:55 AM
Mark Cohen 10 Apr 03 - 06:01 AM
SINSULL 09 Apr 03 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,pdc 08 Apr 03 - 10:28 PM
*daylia* 08 Apr 03 - 09:42 PM
GUEST,pdc 08 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM
Rick Fielding 08 Apr 03 - 07:09 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Apr 03 - 07:01 PM
SINSULL 08 Apr 03 - 06:53 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Apr 03 - 06:44 PM
SINSULL 08 Apr 03 - 06:23 PM
robomatic 08 Apr 03 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,pdc 08 Apr 03 - 05:37 PM
Ron Olesko 08 Apr 03 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,pdc 08 Apr 03 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,pdc 08 Apr 03 - 04:36 PM
Ron Olesko 08 Apr 03 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,pdc 08 Apr 03 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,pdc 08 Apr 03 - 12:10 PM
*daylia* 08 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM
Ron Olesko 08 Apr 03 - 11:05 AM
*daylia* 08 Apr 03 - 10:33 AM
Ron Olesko 08 Apr 03 - 09:27 AM
*daylia* 08 Apr 03 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,pdc 08 Apr 03 - 12:36 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Apr 03 - 11:31 PM
catspaw49 07 Apr 03 - 10:27 PM
SINSULL 07 Apr 03 - 09:58 PM
*daylia* 07 Apr 03 - 09:04 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Apr 03 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,pdc 07 Apr 03 - 06:02 PM
Ron Olesko 07 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,pdc 07 Apr 03 - 12:35 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Apr 03 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,pdc 07 Apr 03 - 03:03 AM
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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM

Cluin - last night I watched the opening ceremonies in Vancouver before the Canucks played the St. Louis Blues. There was a lot of cheering during the "The Star-Spangled Banner" (which was a relief), but even more heartwarming was when the singer (who was that tenor with the golden voice!) fell silent during the second verse of "O Canada". The crowd carried on a cappella with rising enthusiasm, and by the end of the anthem the whole stadium was on it's feet resounding with cheers.
They certainly knew the words, anyway!

The solemn respect given to both anthems by the players themselves was good to see as well - some looked like they were at prayer even. Not a bad idea, on either side of the border!

Watching that, I couldn't help but think that the NHL might have something to teach MLB re the expression of patriotism at sporting events!

daylia


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:11 AM

Probably, but I was just wondering how many Canadians even know the words to "God Bless America". I don't. Hell, I'm not even sure I know the proper currently-authorized words to "Oh Canada" anymore, since they've been changed a few times (and definitely not the ones en Francais).

And as a performing musician, I know how hard it is to get a Canuck audience to sing along to any song, even when they know the friggin' words. Any kind of audience participation is uncommon. They'd be lucky even to get the boos.   ;)

Interesting article, pdc, but a bit too long-winded and preachy for my tastes. Cripes, how many scabs do they wanna pick anyway?


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 01:12 PM

Hey, Spaw, aren't we all?


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM

I think he's going to Denmark instead since they contributed a submarine and he was told that the Danes would sing GBA during the 7th inning stretch.........if they had a 7th inning stretch............if they had a game against a US team................if they had a baseball team.........

Ain't this thread about crapped out?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM

GWB has now "postponed" his May 5th trip to Canada, citing Canada's war stance; the so-called "final straw" was Canada's refusal to turn over to the US any Iraqis they happen to pick up on their warships patrolling the Gulf. Instead, the Canadians will turn them over to an international tribunal.

Not to be too unpleasant, but GWB seems to vacillate between petulance and smirking, doesn't he?

Given America's blatant contravention of the Geneva Convention at Guantanamo (sp?), I can't imagine why anyone would turn prisoners of war over to the US.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 10:55 AM

Okay I've tapped into the poetic, spiritual nature of Maple Syrup and found this wonderful piece of writing in Jan Carlsson-Bull's sermon "What's Left". I post it here for your sweet'n'sticky pleasure, remembering that maple syrup is truly a shared "Ameri-Can" blessing ...


"Maple syrup is a "sacred residue" that takes a lot of time and labor and fiscal outlay to produce. Yet it all starts as liquid called to life in a tree. Maple syrup is the sweet residue of a long process, not unlike what we might experience at year's end, not unlike that "distilled sweetness" entering the heart in Seamus Heaney's "… Dream of Solstice."

"Like somebody who sees things when he's dreaming
And after the dream lives with the aftermath
Of what he felt, no other trace remaining.

So I live now, for what I saw departs
And is almost lost, although a distilled sweetness
Still drops from it into my inner heart.

The distilled sweetness, the sacred residue, is what's left after it all."


May this year's "sacred residue" be sweet indeed, on both sides of the border, despite all the bitterness of the last few months!

Peace - daylia


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM

Thanks, Hester.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Hester
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 10:28 AM

Hi, Daylia:

Let's not forget the Canadian humanitarian worker who lost his life in Iraq this week. Vatche Arslanian, who was working for the International Red Cross, was caught in the crossfire and killed:

CBC report

Now, his was a Canadian contribution to be proud of!


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 07:43 AM

Oops, those thanks to kendall, Joe and JtS belong on another thread - sorry bout that!

It's alright to remember the Canadian soldiers who lost their lives in Iraq here as well, though.

Peace - daylia


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 07:39 AM

Well maybe a song about maple syrup would please everyone. 'Tis the season, too! I'll try to tap into one today ... ;)

kendall, Joe - thanks for the article. I'm wondering whose words those are, kendall?

And I'd like to remember the Canadian soldiers who were killed in Iraq during the last week or so - a 21yr old who'd joined the US Marines while living with his mother in the States, and one of the Canadian soldiers on exchange with the US military.

Thanks for the link re Canada and the Iranian hostages, JtS.

daylia


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 01:05 AM

Oh no, Ron, NOT fine!

In days of yore
From Britain's shore,
Wolfe the dauntless hero came
And planted firm Britannia's flag
On Canada's fair domain!

The maple leaf, our emblem dear,
The maple leaf forever!
God save us all, and heaven bless
The maple leaf forever!!

Ewww!


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:43 PM

Okay fine.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:33 PM

They want to play "God Bless America" during the seventh inning strech in the Great American Game (which was invented in Canada) then between the second and third period of every hockey game I suggest that "The Maple Leaf Forever" be played to support a truely Canadian game full of Canadian players.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 06:04 PM

I had forgotten that Spaw. And the tacky set with the giant moon. As to your nightmare...SIGH! poor lady fought her weight problem her whole life and was abused for it. Crappy agent screwed her over too.

I remember the Lenny Bruce line too and some family members being disgusted at the question. I was too little to dare to ask for an answer.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Hester
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 05:57 PM

Paul S. wrote:

>>>I am embarrassed for the behaviour of my government. Historically, Canada has always been right there to support the US and Britain, but this doesn't seem to be the case anymore. <<<

I often hear this argument lately, but, um ... hello? ... what about Vietnam? We absolutely did NOT support the United States in that war. Or have you forgotten?

Hester ... a Canadian who wants nothing to do with Bush's war-mongering and is glad that ol' Chretien refused to participate in an illegal war. He's shown an amazing amount of backbone for a fence-sitting wishy-washy Liberal. After doing basically dick-all for 40 years, he finally made a good decision.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 07:55 AM

So I bet a lot of you remember Kate Smith's TV show. Her theme song was not GBA, but "When the Moon Comes Over The Mountain." Later in life I had this terrifying vision of Kate Smith's ass rising above the mountains.

She was also a part of one of Lenny Bruce's best bits.....Talking about racial integration and racist attitudes, he said, "Okay, so you'd never cross racial lines. Yeah....so here's your choice....You can have a black woman or a white woman.....The black woman is Lena Horne and the white woman is Kate Smith....Now choose.......Yeah, right Jack........"

Spaw


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 06:01 AM

Ron, I thought EVERY Philadelphian was a hockey fan in '74 and '75 (and '76, of course, until the end). I could hear the roar from the Spectrum 100 miles away in Hershey. For the '75 final, my roommate's friend dressed all in Flyers orange and played an original Kate Smith recording of God Bless America--and this was just to watch it on TV!

Thanks for posting that speech, pdc. Too bad most Americans won't get to hear it.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:30 AM

I agree with every word of that speech. Thanks, pdc.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 10:28 PM

To Daylia:

You are welcome! I'm very pleased and relieved by the reaction of most people to that speech -- I wasn't sure what to expect.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 09:42 PM

pdc - thank you, very much, for the speech.

daylia


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM

To Robomatic:

For what reason did Canadian fisherpeople block an Alaskan ferryboat?

To Rick Fielding:

Thank you. I was leery of posting that speech, but just had to, because it really says it all.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:09 PM

Pdc, I just saw that speech. Whoever made it is an amazing person. To finally hear someone who actually understands this sensitive and 'dangerous' and can speak that articulately blows my mind. Needless to say, whoever it was, they won't be going into politics (I guess)

Thank YOU

Rick


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:01 PM

It was the Flyers, not the Rangers. Hockey is not in my blood! :)


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:53 PM

I remember seeing her on TV live.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:44 PM

I remember her from her later years!!    I think it was the NY Rangers that used a recording of her singing the song during her games.

I do remember that my father was a big fan of hers.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:23 PM

Kate Smith donated all her royalties for "God Bless America" to the Girl Scouts. Nice lady. Very sad life.

So now it's a music thread.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:21 PM

While we're on the subject of arrogance, how much arrogance does it take to blockade a peaceful ferryboat, which is what a lot of overexcited Canadian fishermen did to the Alaska State Ferry a few years ago.

The Alaskans (Americans) took it quietly, didn't try to bust their way out, let the situation calm down and the Canadian furies spend themselves out until the ferry was allowed to go its way.

Then sent a bill.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 05:37 PM

Whoo!! Are you old enough to remember Kate Smith? Definitely, GBA was HER song, and she was loud enough in any stadium to not need a microphone! (The following statement is politically incorrect.) She may be the one who inspired the phrase, "It ain't over till the fat lady sings."


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:56 PM

PDC - you are absolutely right about God Bless America, my apologies for using "national anthem" in my comments. I did not mean to mix the two together - that is a huge difference.   I think this discussion has been mixing the two and I apologize.

I never cared for G.B.A. either. Was it the N.Y. Rangers that used the Kate Smith version as a rally song?   I'm not sure if I would boo it though.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:37 PM

Again, sorry. I couldn't give credit for the speech because I didn't have permission.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:36 PM

I agree with you, Ron Olesko, with one tiny exception: God Bless America is not your anthem -- when the SSB is played prior to games in Canada, we stand respectfully in silence, as you do when OC is played in the US.

God Bless America has taken on a rather sour tinge for a lot of people since 9/11, because it has been overused, I think.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:21 PM

PDC - Thanks for making my earlier point. Whoever made this speech (you failed to give credit), the person was pointing the remarks at Cellucci and Bush, not America. That is what it should be, not booing an anthem or a flag.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:02 PM

Although the following excerpt uses very strong language, and has a very angry tone, it pretty well states what I think Canadians feel about their current relationship with the US, and why "God Bless America" was inappropriate at a baseball game in Canada.

This speech was given at a University in Canada within the last week.



"I want to say a few words about the ill-mannered, obnoxious, arrogant U.S. Ambassador to Canada, Paul Cellucci.

Mr. Cellucci, you ask why Canada doesn't support the United States. Why have we let you down?

Is not an equally justified question, Mr. Cellucci, why have you not supported Canada? Why have you turned your back on us? Why have you and your country proceeded in a reckless, arrogant manner which is 100% guaranteed to substantially increase terrorism and volatility around the world, is guaranteed to destabilize Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran, Pakistan (with its nuclear weapons), Turkey, Indonesia, the Philippines, Sudan, Yemen and many other countries?

Why have you launched into this foolhardy aggression that will cause hundreds of millions of Muslims to hate and despise Westerners for generations into the future, with potentially cataclysmic results, for ourselves, for our children and for our grandchildren?

Mr. Cellucci, you ask why Canada doesn't support the United States in your aggressive, "pre-emptive" militarism. Let me give you just a few of the reasons:

First, we are opposed to war when we believe there are viable alternatives to war.

Scores of countries, Canada included, made it clear that they believed that more weapons inspectors and more time would determine whether or not Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

We also believed that unless they were invaded, there was no probability of Iraq launching attacks beyond its border.

We also believed that there was no evidence of cooperation between two natural opponents, Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden.

We also believed that your war would kill and injure thousands of innocents.

We also believed that we should not break with clear, long-established international law.... international law which is the fundamental basis of the United Nations.

Unlike your country, Mr. Cellucci, Canada has always been a strong supporter of the United Nations.

Perhaps, Mr. Cellucci, you should look in a mirror and ask why it is that BOTH your NAFTA partners fought off heavy pressure from the White House and your State Department to join your ill-advised war. After all, didn't Mr. Bush once say that the U.S. has no greater friend than Mexico?

Where is it mandated that if your neighbour chooses to go off into a potentially catastrophic war, you must go too, even if we strongly disagree with your reasons and your logic, and if we regard your evidence for the necessity of war with the greatest skepticism?

Mr. Cellucci, the war your country has launched is the very type of war that was so harshly condemned by the Nuremberg War Crime Trials.

How is your attack on Baghdad different from the terrible "day of infamy" that Franklin Delano Roosevelt spoke of after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour, December 7th, 1941? Today, just as we were in the case of the Vietnam War, Canada is on the right side of history in relation to the war on Iraq.

We're also on the side of morality, justice and well-established, principled international law.

And we're also on the side of innocent Iraqi men, women and children, not to mention the young British and American men and women who have been and will be killed both during the war, and for many years AFTER the war is over in the Balkans - like quagmire of ethnic war lords, bigotry and hatred and in the inevitable civil war that will result from the debris of America's so-called and almost humorous, if it wasn't so deadly - "coalition of the willing."

You know, bullied and bribed countries like Cameroon, the Marshall Island, Angola, Guinea, Ethiopia, El Salvador and Eritrea.

Several times in your inappropriate, offensive, threatening speech, Mr. Cellucci, you referred to Canadians as "part of our family."

Mr. Cellucci, this might come as a surprise for you, but we are NOT part of your family and we have no desire to be part of your family. In a public opinion poll for Maclean's magazine, Canadians were asked how they would describe our relations with the U.S. Only one in three said like family or best friends. 65% said cordial but distant or openly hostile. In another Maclean's poll, 72% of Canadians said that they did not want to move closer to the U.S. And, more recently, only 8% said they thought Canada should become more like the U.S... Five times as many opted for less like the U.S.

Mr. Cellucci, some of these poll results were from polls taken soon after September 11th, when world-wide sympathy and support for your country was impressive and enthusiastic. Shouldn't you be asking yourself how you and Mr. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney have managed to squander so much popular support from around the world in so short a time?

Mr. Cellucci, you say that the United States would "be there for Canada" and that Americans are "disappointed and upset that Canada is not supporting the U.S. now."

Please tell me, exactly, where was the United Sates when from 1914 to 1917 tens of thousands of young Canadian men were left dead in the muddy trenches of Europe fighting off the Germans?

And, where was the United Sates from 1939 to late 1941, when Germany was overrunning Europe and the Luftwaffe and the rockets were bombing England and killing tens of thousands of men, women and children during the blitz and the Germans were beginning their roundup of millions of Jews who would be slaughtered in the Nazi concentration camps?

How is it that even though you knew exactly what was happening, your country sat back in the face of so much evil and agony, and waited until the Japanese attacked you before you finally, reluctantly, got involved in the war against the brutal Nazis?

Mr. Cellucci, I'd like to hear your answer to that question.

And, by the way, thank you for "being there" for us when your country invaded us three times, the only country to ever invade Canada.

And, please don't ever lecture us again about going to war. We left 45,000 Canadians in European graves during our defence of liberty and democracy in the Second World War, while for much of the war your isolationists refused to get involved.

Mr. Cellucci, let's be clear. Canadians do not approve of your bad manners, your grossly undiplomatic behaviour, your lecturing us about defence spending, your warnings about the possible linkage of our opposition to war with your trade policies.

Best be careful. If you want to advocate linkage, Canadians may want to consider imposing a 27% tariff on our exports of oil, natural gas and electricity to the United States as a reasonable quid pro quo for your egregious softwood lumber duties. After all, you do believe in reciprocity, don't you?

And, don't for a moment consider it a meaningful warning for you to suggest that Mr. Bush might not want to come to Canada for his official state visit next month.

Canadians well remember the disastrous results for Canadian sovereignty when Ronald Reagan visited the obsequious Brian Mulroney in Quebec City in 1985.

Moreover, we all know why Mr. Bush was or is planning to come to Ottawa. There was only one reason. Not to patch up relations between the two countries, but rather to get your hands on even more of Canada's oil, natural gas and electricity. Best mind your manners, Mr. Cellucci, or the Canadian government might just possibly finally wake up to the fact that Mexico, your other NAFTA partner, firmly refused to sign the ridiculous NAFTA energy and resource-sharing agreement that some of our inept trade negotiators somehow managed to agree to.

Perhaps the Canadian government will realize that we haven't replaced our declining natural gas reserves since 1982. That our major Western sedimentary basin pools are depleting at the rate of 20% a year, that new replacement reserves are proving to be much more expensive to locate, are smaller in size and deplete more rapidly.

Mind your manners Mr. Cellucci, or perhaps Canada will have to walk away from the foolish NAFTA clauses that mean we must continue selling you 62% of our oil and natural gas, even if we Canadians begin to run short ourselves.

Mr. Cellucci, you were greatly upset that Cabinet Minister Herb Dhaliwal made "totally inappropriate remarks" by suggesting that George W. Bush was a failed statesman.

My, my, my. How terribly offensive can one be? How does "failed statesman" compare with Richard Nixon calling Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau an "asshole", or John F. Kennedy calling Prime Minister John Diefenbaker a "son of a bitch" and "a prick", or Lyndon Johnson grabbing Lester Pearson by the collar and shouting "you pissed on my rug" when Pearson suggested a pause in the U.S. bombing of North Vietnam and the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of civilians in the bombing.

It seems to me that being called a failed statesman is not only a mild criticism by comparison, but it is an accurate criticism.

George W. Bush is no "moron". Few Canadians regard Americans as "bastards." Most Canadians like most Americans.

But, not since the days of Richard Nixon and the Vietnam War has there been so much anti-Americanism in the world. The U.S. has antagonized not only the Muslim world, but long-time allies as well. It has walked away from, worked against or failed to support a long list of international agreements supported by Canada and the overwhelming majority of countries - the Land Mines Treaty, the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, the agreement to provide lower cost drugs to developing countries battling AIDS and other diseases, the International Criminal Court, the U.N. protocol on Developing, Producing or Stockpiling Biological or Toxic Weapons, the Small Arms Treaty, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (supported by 191 countries, but not the U.S. or Somalia!).

While it is true that in recent months anti-Americanism in Canada has been increasing, and has increased since the invasion of Iraq and your ill-considered remarks, most of the antipathy is directed not at average Americans, but at George W. Bush and the arrogant, aggressive men and women who surround him as key advisors, the repugnant Donald Rumsfeld, the selfishly-motivated Dick Cheney, Karl Rowe and Paul Wolfowitz and other American hyper hawks who apparently place little value on human lives and have little appreciation for the value of patient international diplomacy.

Mr. Cellucci, Canadians are not impressed by your campaign of intimidation, by threats re the border, by proposed American boycotts of Canadian products.

Perhaps you would much better serve your country if you reminded your fellow citizens that millions of American jobs depend on your exports to Canada, that as every year goes by you will become increasingly dependent on imports of Canadian resources, that for 46 years in a row Canada has been the leading export market in the world for U.S. goods and services, that your exports to Canada every year are greater than your exports to all fifteen European Union countries combined, greater than your exports to Japan, the United Kingdom and Germany put together and more than to all of Latin America and the Caribbean countries combined.

Perhaps, instead of threatening us with economic retaliation for not taking part in your military aggression, you would be wise to remind Americans that by punishing Canadians you would be harming your best customer (not a very bright thing to do), you would be harming the profitable American companies that dominate so much of the Canadian economy, and you would be encouraging more anti-Americanism in Canada.

Mr. Cellucci, both you and your predecessor Gordon Giffin and Senator Hillary Clinton have expressed concerns about the Canada-U.S. border and, in Giffin's words, "skepticism about Canada's reliability on security."

Forget for a moment that Canada has already committed close to an extra $10 billion to security and defence spending since September 11th. Forget too, that Canada has had in place overseas document-screening for air travelers well before the United States even thought of such precautions. Forget that the September 11th terrorists were mostly from your Saudi Arabian friends, and were in the U.S. on visas. Forget that at the time of September 11th there were some six million illegals living in your country, but do consider the following.

There is not one single airport in Canada, not one single flight school that would have been dumb enough to agree to train people from the Middle East how to fly large passenger jet aircraft - people who had no interest in learning how to take off or how to land the aircraft - without quickly reporting the highly suspicious students to the RCMP and/or to CSIS.

Once again, Mr. Cellucci, look in the mirror instead of warning Canadians re security. Increasingly, your CIA, your FBI, your National Security Agency, all with huge multi-billion dollar budgets, make the term "American intelligence" seem like a laughable oxymoron.

And, by the way, have you thought about apologizing to Canadians for all the Canadians killed on September 11th and for your own irresponsible action in appointing your personal driver as head of security at Logan Airport in Boston, where two of the ill-fated aircraft and their hijackers took off from? Don't you think that you owe Canadians an apology?

Shouldn't it be Canadians who need to be concerned about the border, given your poor security record and all the violent nutcases your gun-ridden society breeds, your murderous snipers, your anthrax disseminators, your Timothy McVeighs, your Columbines, your paranoid militia, your aggressive history and behaviour?

Please don't threaten us about the border, because if you do, we might just decide to look more closely at your own records.

And, don't for a single moment believe that Tom d'Aquino, Allan Gotlieb and Brian Mulroney represent majority opinion in Canada. They never have, and they certainly don't now.

The best thing you and your fellow Americans can do in the best interests of future Canadian - American relations, is to listen carefully to every word Mr. d'Aquino, Mr. Gotlieb and Mr. Mulroney say, and then remember that Brian Mulroney left office as the least-popular prime minister in Canadian history, and that most Canadians do not subscribe to the craven policies of Gotlieb and d'Aquino.

Canada, you and Mr. Bush may find it hard to believe, is not yet an American colony, and we have no intention of becoming one. You would best serve your country by making that clear in Washington.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 12:10 PM

Daylia said "if there's a way to stop it at all."

I really don't think there is. When the biggest guy in the bar has no moral restraints, ethics or anyone to hold him down, he wreaks havoc.

The problem is simply G. W. Bush, a man who lacks the morality, and possibly the intelligence, to run a superpower. He may well be leading the US to its final days as a world power. Consider where all this might be going -- look at the possible scenarios that could be acted out over the next decade. Frightening.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM

" I would have no problem if the fans started a "Bush must go" chant or other appropriate anti-war chant after the anthem. The aggressor ISN'T the country, it is the people that are running the war."

Right on, Ron! I like the idea of a "counter-chant", especially if it focussed on the people running the war, and not the American people themselves. I'm just not sure that the "mass mentality" of a ballpark is likely to produce such well-thought-out diplomatic expressions of discontent. Maybe a few well-intentioned folk musicians leading the show would help!

Either way, it'll take more than boos or songs or chants to "stop the bully" at this point. If there's a way to stop it at all.   

:(    daylia


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:05 AM

Daylia - Would booing the bully stop the fight? If you stand there booing, the fight will still go on. Using your schoolyard analogy, but when you boo the anthem, you are booing EVERY child in that schoolyard - even those that are trying to stop the fight. In the schoolyard you stop the fight, not demean the particpants.   

I would have no problem if the fans started a "Bush must go" chant or other appropriate anti-war chant after the anthem. The aggressor ISN'T the country, it is the people that are running the war.

Your points about the other factors that led to the war are very true - but I still feel that a basic intolerance is what leads to those factors. If you have an understanding and respect of others, you won't be consumed with greed. You aren't going to solve a global problem until you can solve a basic one.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 10:33 AM

Ron, I do get your point. However, while I agree that "booing A COUNTRY shows considerable intolerance", IMO in extreme situations such as this, a certain amount of "intolerance" is both necessary and unavoidable.

Imagine being forced to watch the biggest bully in the schoolyard annihilate one of the smaller ones - knowing and fearing that YOU might be next up for pummelling, and that no-one else in the schoolyard has come up with either the ways or means to stop the bullying. Would you stand there politely watching, tolerating it all in the name of "respect"? Even cheering it on, or just politely "tolerating" others cheering it on? Or would you do everything in your power to stop the bully?

First by taking every opportunity to let the bully know - in no uncertain terms - exactly how you feel about their behavior.

Current MLB policy has given Canadian fans just such an opportunity to express non-violent discontent. (I consider booing to be non-violent). Surely they knew that when they created the policy, and chose to implement it in Canada's biggest city!

Canada's position on the war in Iraq is no secret. The whole world knows that the majority of Canadians agree wholeheartedly with PM Jean Chretien's decision to withdraw support for America's illegal attack on Iraq. Seems to me MLB could have avoided the displays of "intolerance" if they had respected - and themselves "tolerated" - Canada's position by sparing us this extra display of (nauseating) war-time patriotism, especially on our own turf!

" ... and intolerance led to the mindset that created the current situation" IMO, economic dependence on foreign oil, capitalist greed and imperialist ambitions have MUCH more to do with "the mindset that created the current situation" than intolerance ever did. Intolerance just adds fuel to the flames, after the fact.

Let's find that "middle of the road" real quick! But I wonder, will the "bully" be accessible from there?

daylia


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 09:27 AM

Daylia - I think you are missing my point. I never said anything about suppporting the current policy. We are in agreement that the current actions are wrong. I never said that Canadians should join in the singing of those songs if they feel the way you do. I just feel, strongly, that booing A COUNTRY shows considerable intolerance - and intolerance led to the mindset that created the current situation.   There are other more creative and productive ways of producing change.   As you pointed out - what you love is often "obscured by anger/concern" - when your feelings are obscured nothing positive will come out of it. That is exactly what has created the conservative mindset that has set the political system back by decades.

PDC hit it on the head - it take a middle of the road position to make change.   The far left and the far right set the groundwork, but it is the middleground that will be effective.

Ron


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:54 AM

I agree with SINSULL and with you too, Ron. I love my country too, but that certainly doesn't mean I support everything my government does. I doubt I'd have been one of the ones to boo "God Bless America" either. But I understand why people did - no one likes having other people's "patriotism" shoved down their throat, especially in times like these when the reason for the display and encouragement of such patriotism is so blatantly obvious and controversial. Turned-off sports fans are not known for their exemplary manners, by any means.


America's dismissal of the UNSC, refusal to support the International Criminal Court and subsequent attack on Iraq's sovereignty threatens my country too. Are we next up for "liberation" under the "Project for a New American Century"? Are we supposed to sit politely by and tolerate/encourage American patriotism in our country while that happens? Would you "respect" us more if we did? I think noT!

There's a lot that I love about the United States of America. But right now, what I love about it is often obscured by anger/concern over it's dangerous and arrogant foriegn policies and ambitions.

daylia


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 12:36 AM

Although I will not reveal my nationality, except to say that I am not American, I will state that I was taught, and my children were taught, that we live in a very good country, and that we are fortunate -- even privileged -- to do so.

We were not taught that our country is "best," which means by default, that other countries are not as good. I've been told my Americans all my life that I should move to the U.S. and enjoy "real freedom."

But I also watched "Bowling for Columbine."

I find it difficult to write what I want to say without sounding nasty, and I'm not trying to be nasty. I really wish that the good, solid, practical middle-of-the-road Americans could form the culture, instead of the extreme left or extreme right, both of which seem to assume untenable positions.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 11:31 PM

Daylia, I don't disagree with you. The destruction that is taking place in Iraq is certainly a sign of disrespect, and that is putting it mildly.   Still, I once again question those that would boo a national anthem. Do those handful of Canadians who booed the anthem and "God Bless America" plan to "earn" our respect by showing others that they are just as stupid and racist as those they are booing? Where do you begin to correct the problem if you just perpetuate it?   There is a large segment of the U.S. population that is against this war. When you boo the anthem, you are booing those of us who are trying to stop the war AND who LOVE our country.   You don't create understanding by making the gap even wider.

To me, patriots are people like Abbie Hoffman and Phil Ochs whose actions were driven by their love of this country.   The left has failed to recognize and celebrate their patriotism as they try to do the very thing that created this country. As soon as they wake up to that fact, the message will become clearer.

Sinsull - your words are brilliant.   Thank you!

Ron


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 10:27 PM

Whooo---EEEEE.......Give that girl some room and let her cool them typing digits!!! Well spoken Sins.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 09:58 PM

"There is nothing wrong with patriotism, per se. There IS something wrong with blind, unthinking patriotism, and I think that may stem from having to learn it by rote."

I think that this was the starting point of our discussion. First, the Pledge and the National Anthem are taught by rote in most US schools. Rote is how children learn whether it be the Ten Commandments, the Pledge of Allegiance or "Trees" by Joyce Kilmer. American History (no doubt biased and often totally misleading) is also taught. We study the Declaration Of Independence, the Constitution, the Gettysburg Address, etc as part of learning about our country, history, and patriotism. We learn about our debt to Greece, Rome, France, and England for our form of government.

Then we go home and our parents guide us with their views of the country and the world. In my opinion, that is where you find the cause for blind patriotism in any country. Conservative parents generally beget conservative children; liberals beget liberals. A child whose father proudly served in the military is far more likely to choose one of the services for a career, in fact, the same service than the child of a lawyer or doctor.


You haven't mentioned your background. If not the US, were you not taught your National Anthem by rote? Has the process made you blindly patriotic? If you are a US citizen, has the process made you blindly patriotic? Look around Mudcat. Only the "home schooled" were not force-fed the Pledge and the Anthem. I don't see blind patriotism. In fact I see widely varying opinions as to what is patriotic.

Freedom of Speech is probably our most precious right. Usually it is mentioned in the context of a country like Iraq or China where it does not exist. How does that translate into not recognizing that other countries offer the same right? It seems as if we are on "All Americans are arrogant" territory.

I personally pity anyone who does not think that his homeland is the best place in the world. It is patriotism which inspires a man to stay and work to improve his country. I have travelled all over the world and seen patriotism wherever I have gone, including countries known to be oppressive.

If you are talking about "My country right or wrong", wrap myself in the flag and blindly follow the leader, that comes from the home not the school. And it certainly does not come from teaching children the basic symbols and tenets of their government.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 09:04 PM

Ron, I don't like disrespect either. However, Booing bombing the anthem nation is IMO a much greater sign of disrespect to the people of that nation, not the politicians who are running the show. (Much more likely to kill them and destroy their environment than the said politicians as well).

Respect is earned, sometimes moment by moment.

daylia


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:47 PM

I did not contradict myself, you aren't reading my posts or I am not being clear.   Yes, there is a tradition of the 7th inning stretch - but as I said, the atmosphere is created by the owners. They made the 7th inning stretch into the ritual it has become. The same as a movie theater selling popcorn. What does it have to do with the film? Nothing. If the theater owner decides not to sell popcorn, it is their choice. It may be a bad business move however, but it is their choice.

In the traditions of the owners of the game, who run the show, they can do what they want. It may not "sell", but it is their choice.

My point is that the audience is not being forced to be patriotic. The problem I have is one of disrespect. I stand at attention for the Canadian national anthem at sporting events as well as anthems for other countries. Booing the anthem is a sign of disrepect to the people of that country, not the politicians that are running the show.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:02 PM

Ron Olesko, you have contradicted yourself. In a previous post, you said,


"The only problem PDC is that people attending a sporting event have set traditions and rituals that they go through - and expect."

Correct. And in the traditions and rituals of Canadian sport, we do not include "God Bless America" in the 7th inning.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM

Sorry, but it is not as simple as that.

If you go to a movie, a play or a concert - you are paying to watch a performance. You are giving the performer the opportunity to present their art - AND their views. What you take away from it is your choice. Your level of participation is up to you.

A baseball game is not a public event in the sense that people pay admission to get in and they are subject to rules and regulations for the event.   A public gathering would be a public park or city center. A ballpark is owned and operated by a specific corporation. You don't have to be there if you don't want to. Ask for your money back if you are offended, but don't sit there and say it is an imposition. You put yourself in the seat and if you get hit by a foul ball or "God Bless America", the choice was yours.

I think there was anger over this for the same reason I stated above. Those fans are not different from those they are protesting against.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:35 PM

"The singing of "God Bless America" was simply the owners expression and in some respect - their attempt at providing entertainment."

No. Absolutely not. It was the imposition of American patriotism on a foreign country. It's as simple as that.

Why do you think there was anger over this? Entertainment is "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" during the 7th inning stretch.


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 08:38 AM

The only problem PDC is that people attending a sporting event have set traditions and rituals that they go through - and expect. At a baseball game it is the players taking the field, the singing of the national anthem, and the 7th inning stretch. Each local park has their own traditions as well - the appearance of the Phillie Phanatic, the ground crew sweeping the field, a certain video on the scoreboard.   Even though the action on the field is spontaneous, the surrounding events are well choreographed.   Do I agee that it is necessary, personally I don't need it.

The singing of "God Bless America" was simply the owners expression and in some respect - their attempt at providing entertainment.   Yes, you are entitled to boo.   However you pay your money to be entertained and be provided a service. If you don't like what you are getting, leave. What happened at the ballpark however was more than just people complaining about a service. It was a lack of respect and a group of Canadians showing that they suffer from the same racist views at those they complain about.   I'm against this war 100% and I can sympathize with those that feel discomfort. There are other ways that Hussein could have been removed.   However Hussein is beyond a doubt a tyrant and an monster. Would I spit on the Iraqi flag or boo its display? No, the citizens of that country are not at fault.   (Before anyone says it - I am talking about the flag as representing the country, not the political regime.) Accepting and understanding diversity is the root of all the problems we face.

Spontaneous displays of patriotism?   Someone has to start the display for others to follow. If it is an announcer on a loudspeaker or a lone voice in a crowd, what is the difference after all?


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Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 03:03 AM

I agree with most of what you say, Ron Olesko, so I will try to clarify the point I was trying to make.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism, per se. There IS something wrong with blind, unthinking patriotism, and I think that may stem from having to learn it by rote.

As far as public displays of patriotism are concerned, I would love to see some that were spontaneous, instead of programmed, choreographed and imposed upon the people attending.

Given that last statement, you should now go and read the first post of this thread.

Good discussion, though!


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