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BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?

Amos 14 Mar 03 - 05:49 PM
Ebbie 14 Mar 03 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 14 Mar 03 - 12:50 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 14 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM
DougR 14 Mar 03 - 11:59 AM
Amos 14 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 14 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM
Bobert 14 Mar 03 - 09:10 AM
Amos 14 Mar 03 - 09:10 AM
Forum Lurker 14 Mar 03 - 08:48 AM
Troll 13 Mar 03 - 11:45 PM
Ebbie 13 Mar 03 - 01:04 PM
Wolfgang 13 Mar 03 - 10:08 AM
Bagpuss 13 Mar 03 - 09:32 AM
Amos 13 Mar 03 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,terilu 13 Mar 03 - 01:36 AM
DougR 13 Mar 03 - 01:10 AM
Jack the Sailor 13 Mar 03 - 12:58 AM
Forum Lurker 12 Mar 03 - 11:28 PM
Bobert 12 Mar 03 - 10:54 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 12 Mar 03 - 10:29 PM
CarolC 12 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM
DougR 12 Mar 03 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Mudjack 12 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 12 Mar 03 - 03:04 PM
CarolC 12 Mar 03 - 01:16 PM
DougR 12 Mar 03 - 01:49 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 11 Mar 03 - 06:16 PM
*daylia* 11 Mar 03 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 11 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM
Ebbie 11 Mar 03 - 01:48 PM
Peg 11 Mar 03 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 11 Mar 03 - 01:02 PM
Troll 11 Mar 03 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 11 Mar 03 - 12:16 PM
CarolC 11 Mar 03 - 11:17 AM
Forum Lurker 11 Mar 03 - 11:03 AM
Peg 11 Mar 03 - 02:31 AM
Troll 11 Mar 03 - 02:00 AM
CarolC 11 Mar 03 - 01:21 AM
DougR 11 Mar 03 - 12:32 AM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 11 Mar 03 - 12:22 AM
Troll 10 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM
CarolC 10 Mar 03 - 10:56 PM
Troll 10 Mar 03 - 10:30 PM
Troll 10 Mar 03 - 10:24 PM
*daylia* 10 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM
CarolC 10 Mar 03 - 09:32 PM
Bobert 10 Mar 03 - 09:18 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 10 Mar 03 - 08:50 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:49 PM

His attitude -- which is certainly his most precious, if not his only, asset -- has managed to undermine three decades of evolving relationships.

I was glad to see him coming up with some sort of Middle Eastern peace plan. I don't think for a moment that it was his idea. And, as the song says, "We'd all love to see the plan...."

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:51 PM

Paul Krugman of The New York Times this morning has an Op-ed piece that concludes that Bush et al is simply the wrong man for the job, saying: If that sounds harsh, consider the debacle of recent diplomacy — a debacle brought on by awesome arrogance and a vastly inflated sense of self-importance.

He goes on to say, "Wasn't someone at the State Department allowed to point out that in matters nonmilitary, the U.S. isn't all that dominant — that Russia and Turkey need the European market more than they need ours, that Europe gives more than twice as much foreign aid as we do and that in much of the world public opinion matters? Apparently not.

And to what end has Mr. Bush alienated all our most valuable allies? (And I mean all: Tony Blair may be with us, but British public opinion is now virulently anti-Bush.) The original reasons given for making Iraq an immediate priority have collapsed. No evidence has ever surfaced of the supposed link with Al Qaeda, or of an active nuclear program. And the administration's eagerness to believe that an Iraqi nuclear program does exist has led to a series of embarrassing debacles, capped by the case of the forged Niger papers, which supposedly supported that claim. At this point it is clear that deposing Saddam has become an obsession, detached from any real rationale."

I am withholding the italics; I believe it is clear that some amongst us don't read italicized excerpts. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:50 PM

DougR-Yes, they were developing nuclear weapons. SO WHAT?! Nuclear weapons cannot be the sole basis for determining if a country is a rogue state, or we head the list by far. Their "aggressive history" includes fewer wars than ours in the same span of time. While I'll warrant that Kim Jong-Il isn't the picture of a kind, sensible, benign ruler, I don't think that there is anywhere near sufficient evidence that he poses a threat to anyone. I'd be far more worried about leaders who state their willingness to use their admitted, tremendously large nuclear arsenals than those who simply announce that they intend to keep working towards making one or two.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

The 'axis of evil' is planted firmly in GWB's 'James Bond' world view. A simpleton's boyhood romp was all he wanted... why is everyone so uptight? ;^)

OK... so the Prez needs to be 'more choosy' about his sexual partners, More diplomatic overseas, have a grasp of the underlying reasons for a ballanced budget, and a zesty new approach to peacemaking... Oh, and how's about a sense of humor too! Show Bush the door in Two Thousand and Four! ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:59 AM

Amos, I'm sure you are aware that the NKs were developing their nuclear weapons long before the Axis of Evil speech. Perhaps that was why they were included (their aggressive history and possession of nuclear weapons).

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

FL:

Good point. Aside from their dubiouus ideology about which I know very little. Nukes do not equal evil. But those predisposed toward evil as a result of fanatical upbringing are the last ones who should have 'em! The only concern about NK is that they have done this before and they have been a constant threat to SK ever since. It would simplify life a lot if we could get into a real dialog witrh them. Some whimsical piece of last minute editing put them into the Axis of Evil speech, and they have been on a different tack ever since.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM

Amos-I wasn't saying that we were evil. I was pointing out the fallacy of claiming that any nation seeking to develop nuclear weapons must be evil. I don't think that you can pick and choose who can do what based on your opinion of the current leadership. Besides, North Korea actually has a very stable government-how long has it been since it changed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:10 AM

And if ya' think that NK is evil fir wanting nuclear weapons, let just examine the facts here. Look who Bush doesn't want to mess with? Hmmmm? Then look at who he wants to mess with. Hmmmmm?

Tell ya' what, if someone threatens me I'm going to look for a big stick! If I were the leader of any country right now, I'd be doing just that. When ya' got a nut with a big stick threatenin' folks you gonna need a stick.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:10 AM

Forum Lurker,

I am sorry but that is a half-assed comparison. The concern is not that WMD exist but that they exist in the hands of an unstable government. Right now, though, Bush looks pretty unstable, I grant you! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:48 AM

Troll-Just because they want nuclear weapons makes them evil? You do realize that that makes the U.S. truly fit the name of Great Satan, then, don't you? We invented the damn things and are the only ones ever to use them in war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:45 PM

NK started on its secret nuclear program in 1995, a year after the Carter-brokered deal. Bush included NK in his "Axis of Evil" speech and, as it happens, he was right. They were and are trying to develop nuclear weapons. They have admitted that they cheated on the agreement which THEY signed. And they have reopened a closed nuclear plant to begin making weapons grade plutonium.
They have claimed that it's to generate power but a member of the INC said that he knew that plant and that it could barely generate enough power to keep itself running. This was several weeks ago and I don't have a link. I'll try to find one.
Jack do you honestly believe that that's ALL Kim Il-Jong wants? Because if you do, I fear that you are in for a dreadful surprise.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 01:04 PM

Amos, if only bush would listen! I suspect he is surrounded by so many yes men he is being told only what he wants to hear.


I found this excerpt most telling:

"After Kiesling's resignation from the State Department came a blast from within the ranks of the GOP. Jack Walters, the GOP Chairman in Boone County, Missouri, resigned over Bush's war plans. Walters' letter made some cogent points and posed some agonizing questions: "The consequences of our planned attack on Iraq (and also probably Iran, given the size of our forces and their location in proximity to Iran), should cause us all to pause. The Pentagon has announced that we will hit Baghdad with a force almost equal to the bombing of Hiroshima. Obviously many thousands of civilians will perish, with untold thousands maimed. And for what? To liberate them? To bring them freedom? Or democracy? Or is it to really secure the world's second largest oil reserve and establish a base from which to subjugate other Middle Eastern nations? Is it also the plan for Israel to use the cover of war to forcibly relocate the Palestinian population (as has been publicly stated by some members of Israel's current government)?"

I still think that this nation should be governed by a tripartite presidency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:08 AM

You'd have to look very long to find any recent book on negotiations that is not mentioning as a positive prime example Carter's mediation in the Egypt-Israel negotiations of 1978. The only nasty remarks I have read about his recent Nobel prize were that this award was a belated silent admission that he should have got the award much earlier for his contribution to the Camp David agreement.

BTW, speaking about the Camp David agreement, one part of that agreement was that a little strip of land, called Gaza strip, changed from being a (entirely Israel occupied) part of Egypt to being a (intermittently Israel occupied) part of Palestine. That only dates back to 1948 I think. Though never at the same time in history, but at different times in history both the names 'Palestine' and 'Egypt' have been written to the same strip of land.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:32 AM

Terilu - I had never heard that the Halabja attack might have been committed by anyone other than the Iraqi's so I did a little bit of googling. Whilst i did find many articles repeating your claims, I also checked the Human Rights Watch website. Their view is that the claim you repeat was put about by the US as a cover up since the US was pretty much in cahoots with Saddam at the time. They believe that the gassing was done by Iraq as part of a much larger and more extensive systematic campaign against the Kurds known as the Anfal campaign and concludes that this campaign constituted genocide against the Kurds.

However, I believe that the no fly zones over Kurdish territory have been faily successful in preventing the continuation of this campaign, so it is hardly a premise on which to go to war. I have also read that the Iraqi Kurds are now more fearful of Turkey (who have *not* been prohibited from the no fly zone) - who are also known for human rights abuses against Kurds, and may have more access to the Iraqi Kurds if this war goes ahead.

(sorry if this is thread drift...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:57 AM

For a real firebrand discussion of the case against the Resident, check out Wayne Madsen in Counterpunch.org -- it appears even Bush I is getting pissed off at Junyuh.

An excerpt:

Junior, let's face it, you have done       more damage to the world and your country in two years than most       tyrants have accomplished in decades. Your Dad now even believes       you are way off base. Your predecessors Jimmy Carter and Bill       Clinton think you are an embarrassment. Your Dad's best friends       and colleagues think your Iraq adventure is ill-timed and ill-conceived.

You need to either dump that aforementioned       band of lunatics you stuck into your administration and who are       steering you into political oblivion or you should let Laura       and Daddy sign the papers and let the 25th Amendment take its       course.


Regards,

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,terilu
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 01:36 AM

Troll and others - from http://www.truthaboutwar.org/1brutal.shtml-

These stories make for great propaganda, but none of them are true, and the Bush administration knows it.

Saddam Hussein did not gas his own people.

Supposedly Hussein gassed Iraqi Kurds at Halabja in March 1988 during the closing days of the Iran-Iraq war. But it isn't true. In 1990, the U.S. government found that the Kurds died by cyanide gas. It was the Iranians who used cyanide, while the Iraqis used mustard gas. This means it was the Iranians who accidentally killed the Kurds during battle. Hussein had nothing to do with it. (Source: Army War College, Stephen Pelletier & colleague)

In a related lie, Hussein is also said to have committed genocide in August 1988, killing 100,000 Iraqi Kurds with machine guns, then burying them in mass graves. U.S. intelligence services have uniformly dismissed this story. According to Stephen Pelletier of the U.S. Army War College, no such mass graves have ever been found because none exist. The incident never happened. Human Rights Watch, which originally reported the story, has since retracted it, but the lie lives on.


Saddam Hussein did not try to assassinate George Bush, Sr.

Bush, Jr. loves to tell the story of how Hussein "tried to kill my dad." But it's not true. Investigative reporter Seymour Hersh debunked the story in a December 5, 1993 article in The New Yorker titled "A Case Not Closed." The bomb was actually miles away from Bush, Sr. and was likely a set-up by Kuwait to keep Clinton from easing sanctions on Iraq.


Saddam Hussein's soldiers did not remove babies from incubators in Kuwait.

A New York public relations firm hired by the Kuwaiti government created this story to win American public support for U.S. military action against Iraq. The fiction was based on the tearful testimony of a Kuwaiti woman before the U.S. Senate as it debated war in 1990. The woman claimed to have witnessed the incubator incident with her own eyes, but she was really the daughter of the Kuwaiti Information Minister, and hadn't even been in Kuwait on the day the alleged atrocity took place. (See csmonitor.com/2002/ 0906/p01s02-wosc.html.)
In conclusion, Bush's claim that we should go to war because Hussein (our former client) is a brutal dictator is blatant hypocrisy. Our politicians have been the great creators and patrons of dictatorships around the world. They have…

Toppled the legitimate government of Iran for the benefit of U.S. oil companies, eventually leading to the Islamic revolution and its related problems,
Installed dictatorships in Central America for the benefit of the United Fruit Company,
Installed the current government of Iraq,
Destabilized a working democracy in Lebanon, leading to decades of civil war,
Assassinated the elected President of Chile,
And on and on and on…
(See Endless Enemies by Jonathan Kwitny, The Fifties by David Halberstam, and The Price of Power by Seymour Hersh for details about the above list of CIA interventions.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 01:10 AM

Well, Jack, never let it be said I didn't say you certainly have a right to your opinion. You think Carter is a super negotiator, okey dokie by me. I just don't happen to agree with you.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:58 AM

DougR the current "crisis" in North Korea is because GW called their current leader a pigmy then putting North Korea in the "Axis of Evil" when he declared war on terrorism. Even after all that, all North Korea is asking for is a promise that the US won't preemptively attack them and the 2 billion dollars the Clinton administration promised them in exchange of SHUTTING DOWN THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND ALLOWING INSPECTORS. Do you remember that the Bush administration started to call it a crisis when Kim Jong Il kicked out the inspectors and threatened to restart their breeder reactor?

Carter should be given a peace prize for even attempting to clean up Bush's mess rather than laughing in his face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:28 PM

Mudjack-If Martin Sheen ran against Bush on the Democratic ticket, I'd vote for him. He'd at least be able to convince other nations that he knew what the hell he was doing, and he's probably both smarter and saner than our real president. I trust his staff more, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:54 PM

Doug:

Get a current World Atlas. The one you used in college is a tad dated!

Either way. You won't find Egypt and Palestine occupying the same territory.

Hey, I've just fuggured out who is gonna beat George Bush!

(Drumroll...)

Goerge Bush!

Yep, you knowtice that every time he gets up and tries to convince the world that he is justified in attacking Iraq, fewere and fewer people actually, ahhh, *believe* him as the demonstrations get larger and larger.

Yep, he's about 5 speeches away from being put in a rocket ship and sent to live out his days on Mars!

Keep running your mouth, King George! Speech! Speech! Speech!

Bobertr


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:29 PM

Hi Ho Mudjack! Long time no see! How's that fine voice of yours? So, who is this Jeb Bartlet, and how electable is he? I'm concerned by the lack of charismatic politicians these days... or is that an oxymoron? ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM

DougR, perhaps you aren't aware that Egypt and Palestine are entirely separate countries. Or maybe you didn't read my last post very carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:44 PM

Gee, Carol, I wasn't aware the conflict between Israel and Palestine had been settled. Do they know that?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Mudjack
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM

More direct answer to the question posed by Thomas "H" the Rhymer.
I am voting for Jeb Bartlett, off course we have to have all those NBC writers to write the scripts that will guaratee peace. For the real world I can only say it won't be Al Gore.
Mudjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:04 PM

Yeh, boy DougR... Bush 'the first' and Carter were like night and day Huh? He HE He ...ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:16 PM

DougR, the conflict between Israel and Egypt was successfully resolved with President Carter's assistance, during his term of office. That's a very significant accomplishment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:49 AM

Peg: my rememberance of the Carter years was long lines at the gasoline pumps, double digit inflation, hostages in Iran and failed attempts to rescue them. You, of course, are entitled to whatever memories you choose.

Ebbie: your attack, I believe is unwarranted. I don't believe I directed my remarks to the Carter Center or any works that it may or may not have done good or bad. My remarks were aimed at a failed president who is trying desperately to preserve a positive image in history. His winning of the Nobel Peace Prize was a laugh. Many believe the only reason he got it was the committee wanted to deliver an insult to the current president. I am one of those people.

Admire him as a peacekeeper if you wish, but tell me what he has actually accomplished. The conflict between Israel and Palestine is the same as when he left office (but I admit that he did try hard to resolve it). The fiasco in North Korea is largely a result of his bungled negotiation. What victories can he claim?

DougR

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 06:16 PM

So, who's gonna beat Bush? ...and don't beat up DougR (though it's tempting), he keeps us in touch with the incredibly well informed American public... Listen up and take notes! ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:56 PM

I find the days I forego reading newspapers and turning on the TV (or the computer) are much happier, a lot less "downhill".

But eventually I feel guilty about hiding my head in the sand so to speak, and climb back on board ...

I'd just like to be sure my 'involvement' does anyone any good. Some days I really wonder.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM

Troll-Like I said, I didn't disagree with your conclusion, I simply don't think it was warranted by that particular incident, or even a number of such incidents. Using chemical weapons on civilians IS enough, but the U.S. does not have a significant moral high ground when it comes to WMDs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:48 PM

DougR, you say: "Now he has survived his one term and the only good thing I can think of that he has done has been as a carpenter with Habitat for Humanity."

What a snide crock. You, sir, are ill informed and closed minded; I doubt you have allowed yourself to take in any new information in 30 years.

For starters, there is the Carter Center. I read somewhere that in some regions, the incidence of worm disease through the work of the Carter Center has been lowered by 90%.

""One of Atlanta's premier international institutions, the Center is a nongovernmental, nonprofit organization founded in 1982 by former US President Jimmy Carter and his wife, Rosalynn. A part of Emory
University, the Center's activities are led by resident experts and fellows and implemented in cooperation with world leaders, other
nongovernmental organizations, international agencies and other
partners.

To date, the Center has helped improve the lives of people in more
than 65 countries. In addition to high-profile conflict mediations in
Bosnia, Haiti and North Korea, the Center has monitored some 20
elections in countries making transition to democracy, helped to
dramatically increase grain production in more than a dozen African
countries, provided leadership for an international coalition trying to eradicate Guinea worm disease in Africa, worked with countries to
protect and promote human rights, and marshaled Atlanta neighborhoods
and corporations to address the social issues associated with poverty."

I have little doubt, DougR, that you prefer our ex presidents to put themselves out to pasture, and in recent years most of them have certainly met your desires. Most of our expresidents have let themselves become silly, sports-besotted men.

Rant off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:03 PM

Troll. Lurker's point is still well taken. American law enforcement officers have also perpetrated some brutal and heinous crimes again civilians, rape and murder among them. By your reasoning, the rest of the world should be declaring war on US, if the isolated actions of our police (who are employed by municipal, state and federal mandate) are worthy of the same scrutiny you assign to Saddam's goon squad.

Come to think of it, why do WE get to tell other countries to disarm when WE have the biggest arsenal of nuclear and biological weapons and military firepower in the world?

Some things just don't make sense. I start the day with a smile and a simple breakfast of cereal with sliced bananas...and then it's all downhill from there. When will anyone actually learn anything?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:02 PM

Saddam was sold poison gas by the Bushes and James Baker, then the CIA showed him how to spray it. The film we've seen of the dead Kurds was taken by the CIA...for future use when Saddam had to be demonized. Our CIA, in point of fact, carried out the gas attacks against the Kurds.

And Bush # 1 told Saddam he could invade Kuwait. He said it would be considered 'a regional affair'. And since Bush and Saddam had done business together all through the CIA-funded Iran/Iraq war, Saddam interpretted Bush's Kuwaiti statement as an order. He was ORDERED by Bush to invade Kuwait.

How come you folks don't know this stuff?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:32 PM

Lurker, the example I gave is simply a report of the latest atrocity perpetrated by Saddams goons. Remember, he used poison gas on the Kurds. That was the act of a government, not just a few rogue cops.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:16 PM

OK City....

Ten foot crater left by the truck....couldn't have done the damage to the building. Seismagraphic records show more than one explosion. TOW missile removed from the FBI office above the daycare center (pointed downwards but failed to go off). Govt agents were seen by an employee in the building putting 'grey sticks of margarine' around support columns in the basement beneath the building (C4 shape charges). etc, etc, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:17 AM

Forum Lurker, you mention positioning the truck in the basement. Are you referring to the Oklahoma City bombing? My understanding is that the truck was parked in the street in front of the building.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:03 AM

Bobert-Poop and kerosene can inflict an amazing amount of damage. Remember that this truck could probably carry at least half a ton, if not a ton, of explosive. Think about the damage that a 1000 lb. military bomb inflicts. While ammonium nitrate is not quite as powerful as TNT, positioning the explosive in the basement makes up for that. For two explosions, think about echos. In an urban center, surrounded by tall buildings, any loud, sharp noise is echoed.

Troll-Not that I'm claiming that Saddam isn't a vile person, but simply because some of his policemen do bad things doesn't actually prove any connection. American policemen have beaten, raped, and murdered suspects in isolated incidents. You can't convict Saddam on this alone. I don't disagree with your conclusion, just that this evidence warrants it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:31 AM

Carter was one of the most intelligent, compassionate and visionary leaders ever to serve as President. Because of an uncooperative cabinet and the unfortunate Iranian hostage situation (which he wisely did not budge on, yet many criticized him for), he was not able to manifest all the plans he had in place. But Reagan's economic boom (which he then pissed away by racking up trillions in national debt, more during his administration than all other presidents combined before him) was solely due to cost-saving measures and regulations implemented by Carter (many of them having to do with energy-saving practices he wrote into law). Read any textbook which outlines the Carter presidency; most people have no idea what a great legacy this man left behind. And what about his post-White House years? You don't earn the Nobel Peace Prize for playing golf or fly-fishing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:00 AM

And Gaza. And the West Bank. And on to Zimbabwe.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:21 AM

Ok, troll. If Sharon doesn't comply, shall we go ahead and bomb Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:32 AM

Troll: why do you expect to see compassion from most of these folks for the Iraqi people? Whassamatta you crazy? They feel, obivously, that the Iraqi people DESERVE Saddam!

Jimmy Carter: one of the worst presidents in U. S. history, who has nothing of note to point to as an accomplishment as a president. Now he has survived his one term and the only good thing I can think of that he has done has been as a carpenter with Habitat for Humanity. As a ex-president he should keep his opinions to himself and his mouth shut as every other president other than Bill Clinton has done after leaving office. Just my opinion of course.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:22 AM

I know, Bobert. The film is pretty conclusive on the OKC thing. And then there are the MOUNTAINS of evidence about the WTC.

Just the firefighting evidence...second tower struck, fire fighters reached the site and reported small fires rapidly going out. Most of the fuel had been splashed out the side. Then there are explosions underground (reported by firefighters), and the buildings come down. And all firefighters are put under a gag order for 'national security'.

If 9-11 is not ripped open right now, folks, you will go to concentration camps. Guranteed. Television is now saying people who criticize the govt should be locked up, and television is where 90% of people get their news. Talk show hosts and Pat Buchanan to Alan Derschowitz are discussing torture like it's a given.

Elections...2000, Florida, Gore on top, VNS system goes down, comes back up and Bush is ahead. 2002, VNS goes down nationwide and when it comes back up the Republicans have made 'unexpected' gains. Now VNS has been disbanded because it's no longer needed. Electronic voting is installed in enough areas where national election outcomes can now be pre-programmed. Votes won't even be counted. Just electrons no one can track. It's over. Elections at the national level now have no meaning. Your Pres and VP will be appointed from here on out. UNLESS the Sept 11 attacks are shown for what they were.

An unelected CIA son has brought the world to the brink of WW3 and the institution of tyrannical world govt. Only you can change that. Bring down the CIA (and all the killers and assassins they've inflicted on the world the past 55 years), and the concentration camps can be avoided.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM

Fine by me. We can get Arafat while we are at it. And Mugabe.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:56 PM

If we're going have to go after Saddam Hussien for reasons like that one, troll I guess we're going to have to go after Ariel Sharon for the same kinds of reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:30 PM

Apparently the copy didn't thke or something. Anyhoo, here's the story,
Thirty-seven-year-old Nazif Mamik Tofik, an Iraqi Kurdish woman, approached a border
                      crossing between semiautonomous northern Iraq and Iraq proper, the Daily Telegraph
                      reports. She was carrying two five-gallon canisters of fuel, which she hoped to sell on
                      the Iraqi side to get some money to feed her children. Here's what happened next:

                           As she stepped up to the Iraqi checkpoint, a military policeman suddenly
                           pulled a knife, slashed open the flimsy plastic containers and splashed petrol
                           all over her.

                           Then the head of the Iraqi border guard casually walked up to her, pulled a
                           lighter from his pocket and set her ablaze. Soaked in fuel, she began to burn
                           like a torch. That was on Monday afternoon. Yesterday Nazif lay in Sulaimania
                           emergency hospital, on the Iraqi side, whimpering with pain. She had third
                           degree burns and doctors said she was lucky to be alive. . . .

                           In a faltering voice, she said: "They said absolutely nothing, just looked at me
                           with hatred. Then they set me alight. My whole body was in flames. I can't
                           describe the pain. . . ."

Nuff Sed.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:24 PM

So Bobert. The report that Hans Blix turned in to the UN wherein is described a drone airplane with a 25 foot wingspan and apparently quite a long range is a "cooked" document,eh? The plane was developed under an undisclosed program and, because of its size alone is a clear material breech. Blix didn't mention it in has speech, however. It was buried in the report which ran, I believe, several hundred pages.
I guess he thought maybe no one would read it.
As far as Jimmy Carter is concerned, if you consider him a great, or even good president, you and I have absolutely no common ground on which to discuss politics.
I will leave you with the following story. Perhaps you can explain to me how in the name of the laws of G-d OR man you can justify the existance on earth for one more day, of anyone who would allow or condone such an action.
And just in case you can't figure out WHO i'm talking about, I mean Saddam Hussein, also known as the Butcher of Bagdad, the man who has murdered hundreds of thousands of his own countrymen and stolem the food from the mouths of millions more.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM

Carol, I'm going to give you a very small, probably totally inconsequential and therefore ultra Canadian "Hear Hear!"

"Hear Hear!"

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:32 PM

I, for one, would love to see extensive investigations into the 9/11 events as well as the anthrax letters. And I would love to see a legitimate and agenda-free explanation of why we haven't seen these things investigated extensively already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:18 PM

Well, DD, I will be first to admit that Oklahoma City left that fishy smell. Like someone not telling all. I mean, lets think about it here fir a minute. You park a Ryder truck filled with manure and kerosene some 60 feet from the front of the Federal Building and let her rip! Right?

Well, if anyone knows anyone who is into demolitions that use explosive charges in bringing down structure, ask 'em about how a truck filled with poop and kerosene could take out a concrete building some 50 feet into it's interior! Does make ya' think!

Then how about all those folks who, at the time, instinctly remembering the sound of two explosions? Not one, that a truck bomb would make. Hmmmmm!

Now I will be the first to say that Dreaded Guest is a nut but you know what? Some of this stuff is starting to make more and more sense.

Consider this. Bill Clinton gets impeached fir oral sex and now the American people have lost their taste for "impeachment" at a time when a madamn is at the controls and is using "cooked" documments as evidence on wht we have to attack Iraq!?!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!.....

Hmmmmmmm, Part 0989859307497408?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 08:50 PM

Ebbie...the people involved in the destruction of America think generationally. One Bush started a war 12 years ago and now another one is going to milk it some more. The office of the Independent Prosecutor HAD to be dissolved because it was an impediment to dictatorship, so it was reduced to soap opera. Clinton is going to be Sec General of the U.N. (King of the World) and couldn't care less that he had to look stupid for a couple years in order to get the office.


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