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Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions

Joe Offer 19 Feb 03 - 06:46 PM
katlaughing 19 Feb 03 - 06:50 PM
catspaw49 19 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM
Amos 19 Feb 03 - 06:57 PM
artbrooks 19 Feb 03 - 06:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 03 - 07:07 PM
Gareth 19 Feb 03 - 07:07 PM
Joe Offer 19 Feb 03 - 07:08 PM
catspaw49 19 Feb 03 - 07:12 PM
Sorcha 19 Feb 03 - 07:14 PM
Gareth 19 Feb 03 - 07:16 PM
Bat Goddess 19 Feb 03 - 07:19 PM
Joe Offer 19 Feb 03 - 07:21 PM
NicoleC 19 Feb 03 - 07:25 PM
artbrooks 19 Feb 03 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,herc 19 Feb 03 - 07:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 03 - 07:32 PM
Gareth 19 Feb 03 - 07:44 PM
Joe Offer 19 Feb 03 - 07:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM
Stilly River Sage 19 Feb 03 - 09:20 PM
Bill D 19 Feb 03 - 09:23 PM
wysiwyg 19 Feb 03 - 09:29 PM
katlaughing 19 Feb 03 - 09:29 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 19 Feb 03 - 09:31 PM
Oldguy 19 Feb 03 - 09:53 PM
NicoleC 19 Feb 03 - 09:55 PM
Cluin 19 Feb 03 - 11:17 PM
Tinker 20 Feb 03 - 12:13 AM
Melani 20 Feb 03 - 12:18 AM
Forum Lurker 20 Feb 03 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,The Hated Guest 20 Feb 03 - 12:43 AM
John in Brisbane 20 Feb 03 - 12:58 AM
Stilly River Sage 20 Feb 03 - 01:14 AM
Joe Offer 20 Feb 03 - 01:26 AM
Lin in Kansas 20 Feb 03 - 02:03 AM
GUEST,The Hated Guest 20 Feb 03 - 02:53 AM
GUEST,The Hated Guest 20 Feb 03 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 20 Feb 03 - 03:21 AM
Mudlark 20 Feb 03 - 03:22 AM
Big Mick 20 Feb 03 - 08:09 AM
RichM 20 Feb 03 - 08:17 AM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 09:12 AM
catspaw49 20 Feb 03 - 09:30 AM
nutty 20 Feb 03 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 20 Feb 03 - 09:59 AM
katlaughing 20 Feb 03 - 10:13 AM
JudeL 20 Feb 03 - 10:23 AM
Lepus Rex 20 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM
catspaw49 20 Feb 03 - 10:58 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 20 Feb 03 - 11:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Feb 03 - 11:24 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 03 - 11:33 AM
Bill D 20 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM
Lepus Rex 20 Feb 03 - 12:02 PM
Nigel Parsons 20 Feb 03 - 12:05 PM
Lepus Rex 20 Feb 03 - 12:10 PM
Nigel Parsons 20 Feb 03 - 12:41 PM
Rick Fielding 20 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM
Stilly River Sage 20 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM
Bill D 20 Feb 03 - 12:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 03 - 12:59 PM
Joe Offer 20 Feb 03 - 01:01 PM
catspaw49 20 Feb 03 - 01:21 PM
CarolC 20 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 03 - 01:33 PM
Bobert 20 Feb 03 - 01:33 PM
katlaughing 20 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM
Bill D 20 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM
katlaughing 20 Feb 03 - 03:52 PM
CarolC 20 Feb 03 - 03:59 PM
katlaughing 20 Feb 03 - 04:04 PM
MMario 20 Feb 03 - 04:09 PM
CarolC 20 Feb 03 - 04:14 PM
Don Firth 20 Feb 03 - 04:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 03 - 04:39 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM
NicoleC 20 Feb 03 - 04:59 PM
Bill D 20 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM
Bobert 20 Feb 03 - 05:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 03 - 05:19 PM
Bill D 20 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM
Rustic Rebel 20 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM
Bill D 20 Feb 03 - 05:39 PM
annamill 20 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM
Bill D 20 Feb 03 - 05:44 PM
Jeri 20 Feb 03 - 05:52 PM
annamill 20 Feb 03 - 06:00 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 06:03 PM
catspaw49 20 Feb 03 - 06:14 PM
CarolC 20 Feb 03 - 06:18 PM
katlaughing 20 Feb 03 - 06:26 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 06:43 PM
Big Mick 20 Feb 03 - 07:10 PM
catspaw49 20 Feb 03 - 07:12 PM
catspaw49 20 Feb 03 - 07:14 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 07:27 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 07:33 PM
katlaughing 20 Feb 03 - 07:36 PM
stevetheORC 20 Feb 03 - 07:44 PM
JudeL 20 Feb 03 - 07:47 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,eavesdropper 20 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM
toadfrog 20 Feb 03 - 09:25 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 20 Feb 03 - 09:39 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 20 Feb 03 - 09:46 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 10:06 PM
Cluin 20 Feb 03 - 10:21 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 10:32 PM
Rick Fielding 20 Feb 03 - 10:46 PM
open mike 20 Feb 03 - 11:24 PM
annamill 20 Feb 03 - 11:53 PM
Neighmond 21 Feb 03 - 12:18 AM
Blackcatter 21 Feb 03 - 01:50 AM
Lin in Kansas 21 Feb 03 - 04:54 AM
GUEST 21 Feb 03 - 06:43 AM
Lepus Rex 21 Feb 03 - 12:17 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Feb 03 - 12:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Cluin 21 Feb 03 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,The Dreaded Guest 21 Feb 03 - 01:32 PM
toadfrog 21 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,The Dreaded Guest 21 Feb 03 - 03:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Feb 03 - 03:31 PM
GUEST 22 Feb 03 - 09:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Feb 03 - 09:26 AM
GUEST 22 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM
Jeri 22 Feb 03 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,eavesdropper 22 Feb 03 - 10:41 AM
GUEST 22 Feb 03 - 10:50 AM
SINSULL 22 Feb 03 - 08:18 PM
Jeri 22 Feb 03 - 08:28 PM
SINSULL 22 Feb 03 - 08:34 PM
Jeri 22 Feb 03 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,Jon 22 Feb 03 - 08:42 PM
katlaughing 22 Feb 03 - 09:21 PM
SINSULL 22 Feb 03 - 09:23 PM
Bill D 22 Feb 03 - 10:17 PM
toadfrog 22 Feb 03 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 22 Feb 03 - 11:34 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 22 Feb 03 - 11:48 PM
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Subject: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 06:46 PM

Cut-and-Paste Policy (non-music)

OK, people, the cut-and-paste policy is stated in the FAQ, and I'll include it in this message. Everybody is expected to follow it, members and non-members alike. In the past, I tried to be nice and to replace cut-and-paste non-music information with a link. I don't bother with that so often now.

It's very nice that you political experts know how to cut-and-paste. Now, I'd like to ask you to learn how to make clickable links. Jeff has even provided a link-maker for you, if you don't care to learn HTML. Since you already know how to cut-and-paste so well, the linkmaker should suit you just fine.



The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #19340   Message #738292
Posted By: Joe Offer
27-Jun-02 - 01:05 PM
Thread Name: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
Subject: Please Don't Copy-Paste Long Non-Music Articles
Please remember that Mudcat is a Music Forum. We welcome discussion of all topics, but we give special emphasis to music.
If you wish to discuss other topics, you are welcome to post your own opinions. Please do not copy-paste the entire texts of lengthy non-music articles that are available elsewhere on the Internet - just post a link and summarize the article in your own words.
I don't routinely delete threads because they're political or controversial. I DO delete cut-and-paste non-music articles when I find them. We don't have room for people to debate simply by throwing newspaper articles at each other - but we DO allow political discussions if people express their own opinions.
If you find music information or lyrics you wish to share, particularly if it is about folk music, please DO post the entire text, plus a link to where you found it.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer-
I don't routinely delete threads because they're political or controversial. I DO delete cut-and-paste non-music articles when I find them. We don't have room for people to debate simply by throwing newspaper articles at each other - but we DO allow political discussions if people express their own opinions. -Joe-

Abuse of Thread Creation

In addition, it seems are a very few people who create a very large number of our threads - and most of these threads have nothing to do with music, which is the primary focus of this Forum. All of us are concerned about the current political situation, and we all have a need to voice our opinion. However, I can't see why we have to split this discussion into so many pieces, why it is so important for these few people to start so many new threads on more-or-less the same thing.

I've experimented with various methods of controlling this mess, and I haven't found the perfect solution. I'm open to suggestions, and I will continue to try a variety of things. When things get out of hand, you can expect to see threads consolidated or renamed, and frivolous threads deleted.

I count 14 Iraq threads active today. I'm mad as hell about Bush's statement that he "respectfully disagrees" with the millions who protest his Iraq war - but I don't know where to put my comments, or whether somebody else has already said what I have to say.

I'm frustrated. What can we do to put a sense of order into our discussion of the political situation? How can we allow everyone to say what they think, without allowing the Forum to be dominated by a few idiots who overwhelm us with their verbosity?

I'll tell you one thing I'm going to do: if you start a thread with a cut-and-paste non-music article, I'll delete the whole damn thread. The policy on cut-and-paste is clear. Follow it.

Another thing you can expect: if you start more than one political thread in a day, expect them all to be consolidated with others. Your limit is ONE PER DAY, and fewer would be greatly appreciated.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 06:50 PM

Three cheers for you, Joe! Thanks.

How about if we have a News of the day thread, a continous one which is a central location for all of the political/news stuff? The only exception being some momentuous happening such as Columbine or the Space Shuttle?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM

LMAO.....good one Father JoeBro!!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 06:57 PM

Joe:

Good call, as usual. I was just wondering what I could do to get that herd of rogue dogies to circle in!! :>) Your approach certainly answers the question!

A


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 06:59 PM

What they said.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:07 PM

I think that would get even more frustrating and untidy, kat. It's a big world.

In principle I much prefer it when there is one thread on a topic, or at least on an aspect of a topic. So with the Iraq war, stuff about demonstrations is different from arguments about the rights and wrongs of the policies, so just having one thread wouldn't seem right.

I don't think there's any simple way. Now that we have the ability to have long long threads split into 50s, I really think we ought to use that a lot more as a way of cutting down on the number of new duplicated threads.

It's good practice, when starting a new topic, I feel, to look for an existing old thread and add on to that instead, if there isn't an current thread where the post would fit. But more times than not there is going to be a current thread like that.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:07 PM

No arguments there Joe - though if they can't cut and paste one wonders if some people would be capable of making any coherent statement !!!

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:08 PM

There's another thing I'm considering: insisting that people use a consistent name when participating in non-music discussions. If you post at Mudcat more than once leave the name space blank or use a variety of names, I'll ask the JoeClones to delete your post the moment they see it, no questions asked. I haven't implemented that policy yet, and I don't want to have to bother enforcing it; but it seems that might be a solution.

Don't like the idea? Tough luck. All you have to do is choose a nickname and use it consistently. That's not too much to ask. I suggest you start doing it now. You don't have to register - just use a consistent nickname.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:12 PM

......snicker...snicker...snicker.......

You're on a roll here Joe! (:<))

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:14 PM

Atta Boy, Joe!!


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:16 PM

Just to spell out what I think Joe means. In other words if those with constant E Mail addresses, but dont use a constant Moniker - well


ZAP


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:19 PM

Hear! Hear!

Linn


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:21 PM

No need for e-mail addresses - I know who you are. Just use a nickname that's consistent, so other people have an idea who you are. That way, they'll know for sure that you're the asshole who posted the same thing a dozen times.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:25 PM

Sounds utterly reasonable to me, Joe. We do need to get some of this BS under control a bit; the music threads are getting hard to find.

It's been said before, but I think the real solution is for people to show a little common sense when starting a new thread, and keep the related items together. And it'll save the Joe Clones the editing effort.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:26 PM

Joe! Order out of chaos? Acceptence of personal responsibility? What novel concepts!


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:28 PM

Oh, okay. . . . But does it have to be consistent or can I choose something else?

dan


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:32 PM

I know who you are...

Big Offer is watching you... But I can live with that.

Who was it said that there was a lot to be said for a system of government based on benevolent dictatorship tempered by revolution?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:44 PM

Churchill actually Kevin.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:57 PM

Revolution?
Dammit, Kevin, you're absolutely revolting!!
-Joe Offer-

...sorry, old joke...


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM

One thing that might be worth trying, and it doesn't need Joe to do it. When there are threads which seem to be duplicating each other, when we want to reply to a post we can write the reply on the other thread, and stick a link to it on the superfluous one.

It'll take a bit longer, because it's necessary to write it so that what we say makes sense to someone who hasn't read the thread and the post to which we are responding; and there's the mechanicas of putting the link in as well, though that doesn't take long. But taking longer over a post isn't a bad thing anyway


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:20 PM

Just to be sure we understand: Does this mean that the GUEST with no other nickname is going to disappear altogether? Or just the rude ones? And if GUEST posts to music threads they will stay put? Regardless?

Lumping topical BS threads definitely makes sense. Does this go for the PEL threads also?

I cruise through the various threads in a recreational sense, and don't post to most of the ones I read. But it wouldn't be any great loss if they disappear, I'd just read more music threads instead.

Kind of getting to the whole point of the place, eh?

SRS


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:23 PM

wow! Joe actually implemented a couple of my suggestions!..hooray!...(a couple of years 'after', but *grin*..better late than...)

some folks sure do push you to the limit, hmmm?..ah, well, maybe they have some radio call-in talk shows they can haunt for awhile....


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:29 PM

THANK YOU Joe!

~S~


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:29 PM

Excellent, keep 'em coming, Joe!!


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:31 PM

NicoleC, I don't have as much of a problem any more. I don't see 99% of the BS: threads any longer.

The Filter can remove the BS threads so you ONLY see the threads that don't have BS: in it.

I am using this as a link to access Mudcat - http://www.mudcat.org/threads.cfm?Title=BS:&Age=4&Filterout=1.

Consider it. There is something in the Mudcat Profile which you can set to keep out BS threads as well. Between those two, I don't see more than one or two of them these days.

BTW, I consider the PEL ones to be political and not Music oriented.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:53 PM

Joe:

How come no Paypal or some way to pay for purchases with a credit card?

Is there some way to limit the length of a post?

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:55 PM

I know about the filter but I don't mind the BS threads, George -- I post to more of them than music threads, simply because I don't really have much add to the music threads most of the time. But I still come here primarily to read the music stuff, and I want to read that FIRST.

And if it ever happened that we stopped having those fine music discussions here, I wouldn't be back.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 11:17 PM

That's what I've wondered about... how do these folk find the Mudcat? Do they come for the lyrics and stay for the flaming?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Tinker
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:13 AM

Bravo, Joe...

Tinker


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Melani
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:18 AM

I tried my first link the other day, and it worked fine on the practice thread, but not when I tried to do it on the discussion thread. Oh well. Maybe someday I'll become computer-literate.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:43 AM

Cluin, I think that's the case for most people. It's certainly what happened for me. I greatly appreciate the founding idea of Mudcat, but I just don't know enough about most of the music threads to contribute, or even to really enjoy some of the discussions. I use Mudcat to find lyrics, but I'm simply not involved enough in folk music to be a regular except on the political BS threads.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,The Hated Guest
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:43 AM

Cluin...

I came to search for some lyric information. I posted a question and got zero response. And in checking back over 2-3 days, I found a lot of politically delusional thinking. So I posted a political thing (on the BS thread) and got a HUNDRED responses. 95% of them completely uninformed. So I tagged this as a 'liberal' site and have come back and back as time permits.

You folks aren't as belligerent as the hardcore conservatives, but your lack of understanding on some things just CRIES OUT for comment.

Liberal, big supporters of public schools. Did you folks know that if we go from 'orange' alert up to 'red' your kids will be 'locked down' in their public schools? And you won't be able to get at them? And they will be 'relocated' for their safety? That's why I've posted items on 'Moloch worship', etc., because our leaders are after our children. Why? Simple kidnapping to raise a soul-less army of psychopaths for the future? Slave labor? Sex slaves? Sacrifices? I don't know, but the mechanism for mass-kidnapping is in place and ready to go. It won't suceed in MY area unless they knock all the adults out first with sprayed drugs or something, otherwise, every cop and soldier they send will be slaughtered. Guranteed. Does YOUR community have contingency plans to protect the young?

I'm not bashing the people here or liberals in general, because we're all ignorant compared to someone else, but DAMN folks. Your entire world is about to be socially re-engineered overnight. That mob boss from Pennsylvania, Ridge, has the power now to steal your children. On paper, at least. But did any of you know about it before reading this? I'd wager not. So I make people aware of these things and hope they act on the information. For example...

I started a thread today...'How to Save the Internet'. Handful of responses, degenerating into snickering mostly. But Colin Powell's son is going to try to price you off the internet. Small providers will be forced to submit to the majors, and once they are absorbed, there will be no cap on prices. You'll be paying for internet by the minute or through some other pricing scheme that'll make the cost prohibitive. Seems you folks couldn't care less. Is it a money issue...you have plenty and don't care if you have to pay more? Well, that's not the issue here. The issue is cutting off free flow of news. The illegal govt now in place MUST silence people like me. And the low-life thug-family the liberals think of as the 'good people' in Bush's administration...the Powells...are about to secure ALL communications for the Amerikan Homeland.

As for cutting and pasting...I just rant and copy it and save it to make my work on the next site easier. And I've learned to use Mudcat's clicky thing, which IS nice. This is a well-thought-out site.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:58 AM

Just passin' through and saw your light on.

I'm like George, but only discovered the BS filter a few weeks ago. I appreciate its existence but more particularly that there must be some active editing occurring. I applaud the outcome but am saddened that the censorship became necessary. I used to feel guilty when Joe/Dick would praise (or at least tolerate) the anarchy of Mudcat, whenever that very tyranny made me angry and frustrated. To see Joe in such a determined mood nowadays worries me that (because I agree with him) that I'm much less of a social libertarian than I used to be.

I didn't join Mudcat to read others' opinions on non-Music subjects: I've got enough of these in the other aspects of my life. Best wishes for the musical future at Mudcat.

Regards, John

PS Suggest that all BS: threads be binned after 90 days.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:14 AM

THG, there is an awful lot of "other" access to the internet beyond the commercial pay-by-the-month stuff. I think people will always find their way around the high costs, one way or the other. Millions of college students have their fingers of the .edu pulse. There is such a spectrum of universities and schools that it isn't one government that influences all of them. And the Internet started out from universities, so they're going to fight the hardest to keep it intact.

I see Forum Lurker has gone from Guest to member. Welcome!

SRS


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:26 AM

  • I don't want to implement controls on unnamed guests - I want them to control themselves, to fit themselves into the dynamics of normal human communication.
  • I don't want to be forced to use a BS filter to be able to find music threads - I want the BS to continue, in moderation, open for the participation of all.
  • I don't want to spend my time controlling and deleting and moving - I want people to use a bit of sense, moderation, and consideration.
The copy-paste policy has been in place for quite some time. I have been enforcing it, and I will continue to enforce it.

As for ways of controlling the other problems, I'll leave that undecided for a while, hoping somebody will come up with a perfect suggestion. Maybe the offenders will see the light before my finger gets hot on the delete trigger.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:03 AM

Right on, Joe!

I have been visiting the 'Cat less and less in the last few months. I still care what happens to it, Max and Emily, and the familiar names in the postings (the dreaded "elite" whose handles and senses of humor I recognize). But I am so sick and tired and trying to slog my way neck-deep past the political garbage and religious rantings, that frankly it hasn't been worth my time or effort to do so on the chance I might find a musical thread that's interesting. And yes, I use the damn filters! Don't preach to the choir!

My feisty little German grandma taught me at an early age: don't ever argue politics or religion. No one is going to change their own opinion and all you do is make everyone angry. True words to live by--they work for me at any rate.

I came here looking for musical information and stayed to enjoy the camaraderie. The atmosphere has changed so much the 'Cat is hardly recognizable. Joe, your proposals sound like they would help. Go for it--and thank you.

Lin in Kansas


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,The Hated Guest
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:53 AM

But Sage...

The Homeland Security laws already in place monitor internet usage in libraries. Lock a librarian up for life if he or she reveals an FBI visit demanding a look at the sites YOU visited. In the freakin' UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PEOPLE. First the govt clamped down on the public-access computers, now they'll do it with privately-owned machines. The noose tightens more each day. Little clubs like this which have to self-monitor out of fear of govt reprisals WILL be the way of the future if people don't step up right now and shout down the movement towards govt control of the internet. And as more govt rules are put into place, you'll end up with the song lyric database exclusively (no non-music-related talk allowed), then you'll be told certain lyrics have to be removed because of 'political' content but you'll rationalize it. And someday you'll be left with God Bless America and God Save the Queen in your files.

Oh, and if the people here had answered my question about the lyrics when I first appeared, I probably wouldn't have come back. Mudcat really SHOULD be a little nicer to 'guests'.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,The Hated Guest
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:57 AM

Lin...

With all due respect to your grandmother, we're taught to talk about the weather because we can't do anything about it. Makes us feel powerless. The two areas in life we CAN affect...politics and religion...we're told are off-limits by the powers that be. Those are the two areas we CAN affect and which should be discussed endlessly.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:21 AM

Amazing to see some of the people (WYSIWYG, CatsPaw, LaughKat)who in their youthful exuberance were the worst offenders, have now begun to see the fulfilment of prophecy and have joined the choir.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

You are four years too late Mr. Joe ... the balance has tipped.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Mudlark
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:22 AM

Way to go, Joe! Some people just don't know when to quit.

I agree with John in Brisbane...bin all BS, but I'd suggest after 2 weeks. If there is some buried BS treasure that someone doesn't want to lose, the cut and paste technique works beautifully to transfer it to THEIR hard drive.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 08:09 AM

It's about friggin' time. I will be the first to admit that my views have changed. In my opinion one should not be able to post without registering. Take the idiotic posts by Hated Guests above. Joe is trying to talk about cut and paste and this fool wants to try and hijack it into a political discussion.

Joe and I differ a bit on what this site is. I feel it is a site about Music AND the issues that spawn the music. Probably more the latter than the former these days. I would hate to see the spirited political discussion go as I think that produces understanding. It has certainly helped me evolve in many of my views. But the folks that get perverse enjoyment out of manipulating, and are generally destructive, my opinion is that they should have to post by a consistent handle, and risk banishment. Whose judgement on who goes? Max has already decreed that to be himself, Jeff, and Joe. If you don't like that, go to another site.

This place is a wonder, but not perfect. Nothing is. But it is the best site I have found, and these steps are necessary to rescue a very valuable place for the good of the majority of the worldwide folks that find value in it.

I am with you Joe.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: RichM
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 08:17 AM

A wonderful approach, Joe. Why not take it to its logical extent: Publish a list of topics each day, pre-approved by you?

On the other hand, I see that the mudcat reg'lars like what you are doing, so I suppose that this ain't a politically correct Mushcat suggestion...


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:12 AM

No RichM, your comments sure aren't politically correct. I agree completely that this "solution" is one being implemented to cater to the desires of regulars who rarely participate in the political threads. It also means that Joe Offer is the de facto moderator of the forum. He can't do what he says he is going to do, without moderating and deleting each post and thread he doesn't like.

And he has said he will only censor political threads, so it is pretty obvious this is political censorship, pure and simple.

It used to be that folk musicians were at the forefront of the political protest movements. But this turn of events at the largest folk music forum on the internet is just chilling in it's implications. The membership lemmings leapt on the political censorship bandwagon so fast it has given me whiplash, and the war hasn't even started yet.

Congratulations on becoming the very thing generations of folk musicians have protested, Mudcat. I suppose you will start your censorship with my post here, eh Joe?
Yes, I think you may well be first on the list, my friend. It's time for you either to shut up, or to use a name and take responsibility for what you have to say. If you continue to refuse to use a name, you will be come a non-person around here, and every single message you post will be deleted.
Free speech is fine, but you're just a pain in the ass.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:30 AM

Where's the censorship? Joe says---"I don't routinely delete threads because they're political or controversial. I DO delete cut-and-paste non-music articles when I find them. We don't have room for people to debate simply by throwing newspaper articles at each other - but we DO allow political discussions if people express their own opinions. -Joe-"

Simple rule.....Your opinions are fine, but having a "cut and paste debate" is out. The material can be included, just make a link.

As to the other issue of names, you are still not required membership, just use a consistent name and you're okay. Too much to ask? Again, where is the censorship. With rights come responsibilities.......Now if you don't want any responsibility, then it seems to me you are censoring yourself.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: nutty
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:58 AM

RichM , Guest and all you other dissenters .... you are talking as if Joe has just thought this up and is doing it as a personal slight to you.

If you have been in Mudcat over the past couple of years you will know that the situation has been getting worse and that Joe has tried, with infinite patience, to get you all to see reason.

You all have deliberately ignored his requests and insisted on doing things your own way.

Well, now you are being asked once again to be reasonable ... to show some moderation ..... to use a link instead of cutting and pasting

....... How difficult is that?? Are you not capable of posting a link or composing a precise????

Come on now .... be fair


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:59 AM

GUEST - I suppose you will start your censorship with my post here, eh Joe?

Sorry guest, Joe's censorship began years ago with me....and it continues today...whenever I verbally kick one of his thin-skinned critters.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:13 AM

Clearly posted by Joe in the Newcomer's Guide:

"What about Censorship?

"We try very hard to preserve freedom of expression here at Mudcat, so we edit and delete messages as sparingly as we can. However, part of that freedom is that people should feel safe to be here and express their ideas without fear of being bullied or threatened. Heated discussions are generally considered "protected" around here, but if you find a post that is seriously offensive because it is a threat or a personal attack, let me or Max or Pene know about it and we'll take a look at it."


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: JudeL
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:23 AM

It seems to me that if someone really believes in the ideas and the political stance that they are posting then they they would be proud and welcolme the opportunity to have it recognised and acknowledged as their contribution. Those that hide behind the dubious screen of anonymity obviously do not have the courage of their convictions and do not really believe the often vitriolic claptrap they claim to be their point of view. I do not see the problem with expecting the bare minimum of curtesy of consistantly acknowledging your own posts.

Also hosting the cat takes up a lot of space, why should that be wasted on people who are not even discussing their own views but merely cutting and pasting someone else's.

Finally, it is free to join, you post under a handle which does not have to be your real name even when you are a member. If you can't post as a member e.g cos the machine you are using won't accept cookie, or you have a genuine reason for needing to distance yourself from your normal handle e.g. you are posting something which asks for help on a delicate matter you have the option of using a temporary handle. Those who don't even bother to use a temporary handle or clutter the cat with lots of cut and paste have only themselves to blame if their posts get deleted. This is not political censorship but an insistance on observing mudcat etiquette.

Not only do I agree with Joe's stance but I wonder if (for music threads) it could be possible to assign a tag to anonomous guest posts , the same one being assigned to all anonomous posts from the same id. Just a thought


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM

Well, I think these ideas blow, like, 50 yards of monkey cock, Joe.

A few crybaby, control-freak members whining to you like bitches every time they're "disturbed" by a nameless GUEST is no reason to delete ANY post by anyone posting without a name, "no questions asked." Even if I thought that deleting an anon. GUEST's posts were a good, fair thing for you to do (which I don't), I don't know of a member who hasn't lost their cookie and accidentally posted anonymously. And members, not those filthy GUESTs, are numero uno with you, Joe. Do you really want to delete their posts?

And again, I think members who find a person's anonymity so disturbing should get a life/a hobby/laid/etc., because, people, your stalker-like obsessions are getting creepy.

Oh, yeah, the cut-and-paste/similar threads thing: If you click on a link made here in, say, in 1998, chances are that link is now dead because the information linked is now gone/moved. Some threads are started based on linked information, and without that info being cut and pasted into the thread, the discussion makes little or no sense to anyone reading it after a year or so. I've never minded your trimming/linking policy, but simply deleting all cut-and-paste based threads is heavy-handed.

And "consolidating" similar threads often strips all pre-consolidation posts to those threads of all meaning, as they're jumbled together with unrelated posts. And a limit on political thread creation? Jesus, is this really such a problem?

To, uh, summarise: I know you're frustrated, but seriously, bad fucking ideas, Joe.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:58 AM

Lepus, Joe isn't going to delete posts by those who have lost their cookie. He said:

"There's another thing I'm considering: insisting that people use a consistent name when participating in non-music discussions. If you post at Mudcat more than once leave the name space blank or use a variety of names, I'll ask the JoeClones to delete your post the moment they see it, no questions asked. I haven't implemented that policy yet, and I don't want to have to bother enforcing it; but it seems that might be a solution.

Don't like the idea? Tough luck. All you have to do is choose a nickname and use it consistently. That's not too much to ask. I suggest you start doing it now. You don't have to register - just use a consistent nickname."......Joe

All that does is put a tiny responsibility on anyone posting to be sure they have used a consistent name. What's the problem with that? It would make conversing in those threads a lot easier....I can say "lepus" (even if you're a guest) instead of "Guest @ 10:28 AM, 20 Feb, 03"....Not too big a deal is it?

And as for links disappearing, the policy to post the text in music threads is because they do disappear.....HOWEVER, people come here looking for music info. Who the hell comes here looking for political discussions that we had four years ago? And if they do, they're in the wrong place. What Max is trying to save for posterity if you will, are things related to folk and blues.....not on whether or not Powell is a pawn of Bush or whatever.

Again....no censorship....just taking some responsibility. And Leeps, you have never seemed to me to be one who would be expert in 50 yards of monkey cock........I mean, I could be wrong...........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 11:10 AM

Well put, Joe.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 11:24 AM

Guest: "And he has said he will only censor political threads, so it is pretty obvious this is political censorship, pure and simple."

No, this is not political censorship. Political censorship is the removal of extreme views, or the removal of the views from one side of the debate.
Removal of the debate in toto is censorship of politics. A different matter entirely!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 11:33 AM

Cutting and pasting long article doesn't actually make sense. I'm sure most people just scroll past them nine times out of ten.

Sticking a link and a quote or summary is far more likely to get the piece read, I'm sure - it's pretty well always more legible back on the original website.

The only argument for doing it is when the piece in question isn't going to be around for very long in its original place. More times than not though it is possible to find an article in some place which archives things properly, so you use that link.

Ideas about automatically junking BS threads after some limited time don't appeal to me at all. We'd lose that some wonderful stuff if we did that. We'd also lose a lot of tosh, but that goes with the territory. Don't chuck the baby out with the bathwater.

I can envisage more imaginative ways of carrying on discussions that might have been BS in a way that makes them music thread. I'm all for that.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM

RichM and Lepus Rex and a "guest" or two simply do not get it......They read what Joe wrote (I assume they do) and turn it inside out into something Joe never said.They take words out of context and make Joe and the other clones sound like the halycon days of the USSR!

It is simple...this is Max's site, Max wants as little censorship as possible, and has several deputies he trusts to oversee things. Posting here is a privilege not a 'right', and some people have abused the privilege, even after reading the rules. "Free Speech" does NOT mean carte blanche to say anything, anytime, at any volume, with no responsibility.

Several of you, including RichM and Lepus Rex ,,,(AND gargoyle) have posted a LOT of acrimonious stuff here which has not been touched, edited OR deleted.....but Max and Joe as owners and moderators have the RIGHT (not 'privilege') to majke the restrictions they choose....and it is a pretty damn light set of rules, considering!

If all you dissentors want to go yell at each other at some place you like better, be my.....ummmmm.....GUEST.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:02 PM

"Joe isn't going to delete posts by those who have lost their cookie" ---Spaw

That's even worse, Spaw! Then he's blatantly singling out the GUESTs, which is unfair. I don't think this is being done to make conversation easier, but to cater to the squeals of a minority of members who go apeshit at the mere thought of a nameless GUEST, for whatever weird personal reason.

"Who the hell comes here looking for political discussions that we had four years ago?" ---Spaw

Well, I have. That's part of what makes that little place in Mudcat time interesting and complete. OK, so maybe I'm weird, and I still occasionally go through newspaper clippings I collected in the early 90s (before I had the internet). But I imagine those threads are of interest to others, as well. If Max wants to purge the archives of BS, well, it's his property. But I don't think Joe should be arbitrarily deleting threads based on whether the poster is well-liked by Joe's pals or not. That's all. :)

And McGrath, that's sort of what I was saying, but without all the monkey-cock.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:05 PM

Lepus Rex: "Who the hell comes here looking for political discussions that we had four years ago?" ---Spaw

"Well, I have." (L.R.)

Do you think perhaps that a basic 'political' website might be more to your taste? and possibly your wish to re-hash old political debates might be more welcome there?!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:10 PM

What are you talking about, Nigel? I said I've gone back and read them. They're there, and they're interesting. More interesting, to me, than those on many political forums, because of who the posters are and what their interests are. Didn't say I don't read the musical threads, too, did I? Chill, dude.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:41 PM

No, L.R. you didn't say you'd gone back and read them. I quoted (exactly) your on-line conversation with Spaw. I'll shorten it this time:
(Spaw) who comes here looking for old discussions?
(Lepus) I have.

If I have misconstrued your comments it is because what you said was not what you intended. Obviously my error!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM

Chill, Dude!!??

Ummmmm, totally awesome!

Ya made my day Lepus.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM

Wes, to bring this back for a moment to your remarks about Librarians and what they're asked to keep track of, our librarians have software that purposely doesn't keep the names or id of individuals after a reference transaction has been concluded. They have been aware for a long time of the pressure to save the FBI a lot of steps and report anyone who is researching anything the FBI considers subersive, etc. but they don't do it.

We received a memo on this univeristy campus last week saying that if approached by the FBI we are to direct them to the appropriate Dean's office to discuss what they want and what legal documents they need to return with in order to question anyone. Since my ex is unfortunately involved in a civilian capacity with Bush's personal vendetta war he had to fill out information about himself but also about me. And if I'm approached and they have all of the proper documentation I, like any other staff or faculty am supposed to answer their questions and tell no one. I expect during the interview I would manage to convey my contempt for such a process and for their commando in chief. The saying goes "don't kill the messenger," but you can certianly give them an earful to convey up the chain of command!

In this environment, the place where Mudcat could get into trouble is if members or guests start describing those events they're not supposed to reveal to anyone.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:53 PM

" members who go apeshit at the mere thought of a nameless GUEST"....still don't get it. That's not the point...it's what nameless guests DO.

". But I don't think Joe should be arbitrarily deleting threads based on whether the poster is well-liked by Joe's pals or not."....total BS! Having met Joe on several occasions, I can say that the requirements for being a 'pal' of Joe's are a bit higher than you realize...but do include being a reasonable, fair-minded person who is considerate of others....and NOT being combative and ignoring polite requests to follow the rules!

ahhh, why do I bother? Joe can speak for himself, and has...I just get P.O.d at the temerity of some who are determined to twist the intent of the rules.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:59 PM

BS just means non-music. By no means all BS threads are about politics. And quite often they get round to stuff involving music and song.

The threads following on from September 11 are a fascinating historical document, of a sort that couldn't previously have existed. Thread arising out of things that have happened to Mudcatters - illness, fires, for example - are worth reading even now.yesars later, and as time passes their interest will increase rather than decrease. Threads about Vietnam have contained powerful personal statements and reminiscences.

And those are just a few examples.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:01 PM

You're right, Lepus - the political discussions can be fascinating here because of who the posters are and because of their interests. However, if the posters don't use names, how do you know who they are and what their interests are? If they communicate only by throwing cut-and-paste articles at each other, how do you know what their own ideas are?
It's true that links die after a time. That's why I ask people to post both a link and a summary of the article they cite.

Then there's this idea of the huge number of threads that get started, that make such a hodgepodge of our discussion. They make it a matter of "survival by verbosity." Those of us who think before we write, have no chance against the compulsively verbose people who want to take over all political discussion here.

I live with a wonderful wife, her 13-yr-old son, and my 88-yr-old mother-in-law. Oftentimes, it's difficult to carry on an "adult conversation" in this house because two of the family members don't know how to participate in the flow of conversation, to follow ideas as they develop and wait their turn to have their say. I think it's quite the same with our compulsive thread-starters here. They don't know how to have an adult conversation, so they keep departing from the flow of ideas by jumping out to start new threads. That way, you end up with a conversation that no reasonable person can follow.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:21 PM

Kevin, what are you going on about? No one has made any effort to kill-off old BS threads of any sort. They're archived as well and I expect them to stay that way, UNLESS space becomes a problem and then the decision is up to Max. I know he likes the BS and although some of it is drivel, some is very interesting and intelligent conversation. The only thing that would be missing in old BS threads would be some of the info from links that had died. Joe suggests a brief summary of the link and that should suffice for posterity.

On the other hand, on the music threads, it has long been policy to post the text and the link so we keep a complete record in those cases. I've gone back and re-read some of the old political threads as well as the funny stuff or the 9/11 material. It still reads well, dead links or not. Again though, it's no one's intention to dump all of the old BS threads. I would say that in the case of a few, "Hey, where is Joe Dokes?"...it might not hurt either.

And JOE.....You said two family members are incapable of participating in the flow of the conversation......So what's wrong with you and your wife?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM

I participate in those musical threads that address my particular musical interests, which are not often the subject of discussion here, but which are very much covered by the stated purpose of this site. I am grateful to this site for being a place where I can do this. And I like to help out on music threads when I am able.

I think this site, and everything in it, from music discussion to BS discussion, is a treasure. All of it. And I'm grateful for the fact that I can look at all of the old threads, no matter what the subject is.

I don't have any opinions about Joe's job or how he should do it. I'm just grateful that he's here to do whatever it is that he decides to do. And that goes for Max and Jeff, as well.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:33 PM

I was speaking up for the old BS because there've been a few people saying how it'd be great if it got junked after a relatively short time. I thought it'd be as well to register a different point of view, just on principle.

It's all a bit like when you are trying to tidy up an old cupboard full of papers - in among the rubbish you find stuff that pulls you up in horror at the idea you might have chucked it out. And it's quicker to shovel it back in rather than spend the time you'd need to really sort it out. Someday I'll make the time...


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:33 PM

Well, Joe, I think this is great!

I ain't into copyin', pastin' or clickin' things anyway.

Jus' don't come down on bad typin' er spellin' er danglin' corpusals and all will be well...

Good day for the Catbox. Bad day fir the C & P'rs...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

Way back when, Max mistakenly thought it would be funny to play an April Fool's joke on us and so he posted that the Mudcat was going to be shut down due to some BS concerning copyrights, etc. He had us going all day. Some of us figured out that we could cut and paste whole threads into our own WP programs and have them saved forever that way. Thankfully, it was a bad, bad joke, one he's never repeated 'cause he knows what we'd do to him, BUT it was a good lesson in how each individual can save all that they like on their own harddrive if they have any concerns about losing material on here.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

(for the record...*giggle*...some of us figgered out Max's bad joke immediately. I guess it comes with being a confirmed skeptic)


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:52 PM

Yeah, yeah, BillD, rub it in...I remember posting that I thought it was BUT wasn't going to take a chance AND wasn't quite sure, I mean I was a newbie, okay?**bg** As it is I have a great collection of Classic Threads on my harddrive...ah...nostalgia!


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:59 PM

How does one save a thread to one's hard drive (for those of us who weren't around back then)?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:04 PM

All I did was copy and paste, Carol. There may be an easier way, but I don't know of it if there is. Of course, most threads didn't go beyond 100 or so posts then because a lot of us had really slow connections, including BillD's hamster-driven harddrive.:-)

Also, once I pasted, I went in and cleaned it up, getting rid of all but the heading for each posting and the posting.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:09 PM

Bring the thread up - then choose "file" "Save As"

In IE you get a choice as to format


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:14 PM

Thanks MMario!


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:22 PM

The problem with this multiplicity of threads on essentially the same subject, is that if you have something to say, you don't know where the hell to post it so that other people will see it. There are so many threads on the same subject that sometimes I can't remember which ones I've posted to. I actually have a life away from the computer and I don't have the time to go through all this stuff. Some of it is good and informative, but much of it is repetitive ranting and raving. It's ridiculous for someone to start a new thread every time he or she discovers what they think is a new and subtle nuance of the issue. It dilutes the discussion as a whole.

And by the way, as far as lengthy cut-and-paste jobs are concerned, I glance at the first sentence or two to see if it's a matter of real interest, and if so, I might read a bit further, but unless it really grabs me, I skip the rest—and I'll bet most other people do too. So it's a double waste of bandwidth.

I don't start very many threads, and I think carefully before I do. I started one yesterday ("BS: Constitutional Guarantees") because it's something I feel is a matter of deep concern to everyone. It's separate from the Iraqi war issue—not just a subtle variation on a theme. It's more related to the "security vs. freedom" issues raised by recent anti-terrorist legislation, and I asked people to try to stick to the subject of the Constitution (sort of like trying to herd a flock of nervous chickens) and not turn it into another anti-war thread, of which there are more that plenty.

A little moderation and self-control, okay? Do what you have to do, Joe. I'm with you.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:39 PM

I think maybe people got into the habit of starting a new thread, when the old one was much over 100 or so posts, before the ungrade. Long threads just wouldn't load, especially for some people, because they weren't divided into neat sets of 50 threads, like they are now. And the habit has stuck. It made sense then but it doesn't now.

There is a case for separate threads on different aspects of the same topic, though I think providing links to and from the other ones should be part of our responsibility, when we feel a new thread is needed - but it's got silly lately.

That is largely because of a few people who seem to think they need to start a new thread on the same topic every time they sit down at the comouter, instead of going back to the old thread and carrying on the discussion. It's a pain, I agree, and it makes it very hard for a discussion to move along.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM

Again Lepus, nice try. But I'm not going to play these mind games with the brown shirt and jack boot types around here. Life is too short for that bullshit.

If the Mudcat cops really wanted to be rid of me, they could have done so at any time. This isn't about getting rid of one unpopular guest, this is about exercising power and control in extremely heavy handed ways, as you pointed out Lepus. They want to force me to post in a different way from other non-political anonymous guests to punish me, do it their way, make their censorship job easier, that sort of thing. If they actually do check the IP addresses, which I doubt, they already know I am not the only regular anonymous guest posting to this forum. Or even posting to the political threads.

I don't start that many political threads anyway. And I've been censored for providing links without cutting and pasting, for providing links and an excerpt of an article, and for cutting and pasting whole articles. So the issue isn't about cutting and pasting, either.

Nah, people here don't recognize what is going down now, but they will soon enough. This is about a small group of Mudcat members whose popularity has waned because a new group of politically inclined members have joined, and are using the BS threads in ways that interest them. They will be dictated to more and more often now, as to what they can and can't do here. There won't be any restrictions on any other types of BS threads, just the political ones, as we see happening here.

Pretty soon, the Mudcat members who would rather talk about their personal problems, latest surgeries, fart jokes, etc. will then be at the center of the Mudcat world again, and the nice people will have won the day, and saved us from political discussions no one forced them to read to begin with.

One giant leap for political censorship, and an even bigger leap for fart jokes.

Congratulations, you all win the day. You do political folk music proud. First they came for the hated anonymous guest, but I didn't speak up because I was a member...


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:59 PM

The gargantuan threads are still kind of a problem for me; anything above 200 posts or so is just too difficult to wade through in any meaningful way (although easier than it used to be). It's hard to keep track of what you've read and have not, you've gotta find the end or not quite the end, and reading backwards just doesn't work for me.

Besides, most of the BS threads descend into generic insults anyway after a 100 posts or so. So I just ignore the big ones after a while.

I agree we don't need so many new threads, but really big ones aren't comfortable to read either -- and the way politics moves, a lot of the times the early posts aren't relevant. Maybe there's a happy medium to be found?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I spoke up...I said I liked the political discussion to be AMONG regulars 'with names', members or not, rather than a forum for any news junkie who happened by. I discuss LOTS of things with my friends, politiacl and otherwise, but I dislike being accosted by strangers who want to rant to me about their latest scare.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:18 PM

Well, danged, GUEST! Hey, may Joe would think one guest *handle* per thread would work.I mean like if the thread is about blues you could be GUEST, 12 bar and if it was about Bush being a jerk, something real catchy like GUEST, Bush is a Jerk.

Hey, wereas I can see all your points, I don't see this as a blatent assault on anyone's 1st Ammendment rights. I mean, there's a world of difference between Joe and John Ashcroft. Right?

So, what do you think, Joe? Howz about a different guest handle for each thread. That way we wouldn't have to burn up as much gray metter trying to figure out which guest is posting.

I also agree with Nicole in that some threads just get too burdomesome and end up with just two or three folks hashing out the same positions. I've been guilty of that.

How about given the author of the thread the option of tweeking the title a little at 200 (or so) and tweeking the content just enough to get some participation?

Just ideas...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:19 PM

How the hell are we expected to distinguish one GUEST without a label from another GUEST without a label? Assuming we cared to.

If you've been involved in a discussion thread, Nicola, it's easy enough - just look to the last time you posted and move forward from there. Otherwise skim through till you see a post that looks unfamiliar, which is a bit trickier. Or of course you can go by date if you've any idea when you last looked at the thread.

I agree with your analogy Bill D.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM

and here is a lovely image to keep in mind


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM

From all these posts it seems pretty easy to sum up.
1. Add a link instead of cut and paste.
2. Guest- what is the big fucking deal to add a 1 or A or anything you desire as long as it is consistant, just so we know who is who. Hated Guest, I have noticed that you use a name now, so everyone should really get off your ass about that.(Except I think it's a pretty funky name you picked!)
3. Same subject- same thread. That's an easy one to figure out.

All of this seems like no big deal to me. I have been pretty much sticking to the rules from the get, maybe a few cut and pastes but nothing to seriously wrong with that either. I know save space- I get it.
One more thing I would like to add- Gargoyle- I've always found your posts to be quite amusing, blunt and straightforward. I have no problem with that from anyone.
The thought of censoring threads turns my stomach. So if you get this really simple stuff Joe is saying- Maybe it won't have to come down to censoring at all.
Peace. Rustic, stating my opinion.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:39 PM

messed up my link, I see...well, because I care...image to keep in mind

came from this page flame warriors (we may have had some of these in the distant past...very nice, some of them)


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: annamill
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM

Where is Max?? Does he have any say in this?? Is all this cutting and deleting ok with him?? Didn't he say there would be no censorship?? Someone made a good point. There have been times when I will click on a blue clicky thing in a thread only to find it is gone.

You know I love you Joe, but, did you get up on the wrong side this morning?? You may be right about some of the stuff you dictated here, but you could be a little softer about it. Then again, I know I'll never cut and paste again! Cheez!

Love, Annamill


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:44 PM

(the posts from gargoyle that don't cross the line are all still here...there was a time when some were seriously out of line and personal attacks) we have about 6 years worth of gargoyle now, and he 'almost' gets the point at times.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:52 PM

I read most of this thread.

My take on it:
At one time, Mudcat was almost all music discussion with a small handfull of non-musical threads. Then came political debate, usually one or two thread's worth. Now for some reason (mostly one virus-guest and maybe a couple other anon-guests who just like to start threads) there are more posts on politics than on anything else. Can't say much, because it's what people want.

But...

Early on, we were encouraged to cut and paste folkie stuff because Mudcat was somewhat archival in nature. Early on, we were told not to cut and paste lenghty non-music articles.

It's not censorship because the stuff being deleted is not the work of the person doing the posting. Their own personal words would have to be deleted. It's a waste of space, it's usually a copyright violation, and the articles are not only old news in a couple of days, but usually so available that there's no reason anyone should expect to see them here.

Now if somebody wants to start on the freakin' virus warnings, hoaxes and "My name is Jokhe Stwahrt, I'm an African man, and you know that my credit is bad"... (oh jeez - somebody stop me NOW!)


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: annamill
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 06:00 PM

You know, I haven't been here much lately. I've been crazy busy. I see all the war/anti-war threads. I think people are afraid. When you're afraid you want to talk to people you feel comfortable with. You want to express your feelings and ideas and fears. This might take many forms. And threads. We need to talk I think.

Love, Annamill


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 06:03 PM

BillD, you probably found your way to the Flame Warrior cartoon site through links provided by me. I introduced them to Mudcat quite some time ago.

This is really all about perception though, isn't it? Here are the images I see when I come here:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame79.html

And this image:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame3.html

And this:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame35.html

This:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame48.html

This:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame38.html

And of course, the one that Hated Guest stepped on:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame69.html


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 06:14 PM

Anna my old friend, we GOT threads! WE got a whahzookie full of threads!!! As a matter of fact, I just saw a thread from Peter T. asking for a moratorium on the damn things.

I agree, we need to talk and people need a place to vent, propose solutions, just plain bitch, express fear....all those things. On the Iraq issue you can still start a new thread...feel free. But we have had some people around here who seem to believe that every stray thought on Bush or Iraq needs a new thread!   AND like as not, the new thread starts with a cut and paste!

No censorship going on here....Nobody has their words expunged. Just a few rules in the Bentham/Mill tradition.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 06:18 PM

Oops, katlaughing! I didn't see your reply to me until just now. Thanks to you, too.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 06:26 PM

That's okay, Carol, MMario had a much more elegant solution. Wish I'd known about it back then!

A general aside: one wonders why the news junkie guests who want to muck up the Mudcat with thread ad nauseum don't just go start their own blogs where they can cut and paste, rant and rave, dispense their holier than thou know it all *superiority* to masses who might appreciate it better than a bunch of stoopid old folkies.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 06:43 PM

"No censorship going on here....Nobody has their words expunged."

From Joe Offer in this thread:

"When things get out of hand, you can expect to see threads consolidated or renamed, and frivolous threads deleted."

That says to me, there will be threads deleted without any cut and pasting, if Joe deems them "frivolous".

And this:

"How can we allow everyone to say what they think, without allowing the Forum to be dominated by a few idiots who overwhelm us with their verbosity?"

That says to me, Joe will decide who is an idiot, and who is "overwhelmingly verbose". Nothing arbitrary about that though, I'm sure. So long as you have no interest in PEL or the war against Iraq.

And he ended the opening thread with this:

"...if you start more than one political thread in a day, expect them all to be consolidated with others. Your limit is ONE PER DAY (Joe's emphasis)"

Does this mean everyone Joe? Members and guests alike? So now you not only are going to define what is and what isn't political, you are also going to start keeping track of who started which political threads on a daily basis? Nothing arbitrary or Big Brother about that either, I suppose.

Then, Joe announces the likelihood that all guest posts without a name in the from line will be censored:

"There's another thing I'm considering: insisting that people use a consistent name when participating in non-music discussions. If you post at Mudcat more than once leave the name space blank or use a variety of names, I'll ask the JoeClones to delete your post the moment they see it, no questions asked."

Please note, that there will be certain selectivity about which guest posts get censored and which don't. Here Joe says it will be any guest posting to a BS thread. But c'mon people, don't be stupid. Do you really think the Joe & the clones WON'T be extremely selective about which BS threads they will delete guest posts with nothing in the from line? Like the political threads Joe Offer decides are "frivolous" or posts that are too "verbose"?

It may not be policy yet, but this of course means that any guests who come into the forum without reading the FAQ, etc. who don't have a grasp on not only "THE RULES" but also the cultural aversion in this group to people posting without a name in the from line, would potentially have their posts automatically deleted. That ought to bring in the newcomers, eh? Sure as hell looks like a Mudcat policy to keep this forum xenophobically safe and perpetually cleansed of newbies, but what the hell...we love you Joe.

BTW, is being annoying and an asshole considered to be a violation of Mudcat policy? And who gets to say who is an annoying asshole, and who isn't? I have a sneaking suspicion my list of annoying assholes on Mudcat won't match up with say, catspaw's list. Other's mileage may vary, too.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:10 PM

WAMSO Matriot GUEST, you are a crackup. You build a predicate and force a response, then you say, I told you so.

It is this simple. Max, Joe, and Jeff make the rules. You follow them. If you can't live with them, leave.

Let me tell you a rule that I don't like, but I live with. My opinion is that none of you can be anon. Were I in charge, you would have to register, have a cookie that wouldn't allow you to have more than one ID, agree to have your email posted, as well as your IP, and you would be totally accountable for all comments. My view has been rejected. I will live with it.

Ahead Full, Joe.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:12 PM

Really gettin' to yuh ain't it? No problem in newbie posting or first time posting.......easy. And consolidation ain't censorship is it? You could of course play by the very simple rules or you could fight on with this insane drivel which fools no one.......Go ahead and force the other issue on names......I figure the clones can handle it.

Or you could continue your crappola under a consistent handle.....too easy huh?

Spaw.......LMAO


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:14 PM

Gee Mick....Sorry about the cross posting but they seem to read in a similar vein.......(:<))

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:27 PM

So what are the rules, exactly? State for me which of the "rules" of Mudcat posting messages without a name in the from line violates?

As to the creation of threads, could someone here please direct everyone's attention to where the "rules" of thread creation are? Do they show when one clicks on the "create a thread" button? No? So how is a newbie to know these "rules"?

Is there a Mudcat definition of an idiot? Of an asshole? Can someone please direct everyone's attention to the "rules" about idiots and assholes being allowed to post in this forum? When one clicks the "submit message" button, is there perhaps a questionnaire that one must complete, to make this determination?

Is there someplace at Mudcat--the FAQ, say--where "political" is defined for us, so posters might know if a thread they wish to create will be counted as their "one a day" political thread creation? Like PEL, for instance. Is PEL political, BS, or music-related?

It isn't getting to me at all catspaw, although I'm not the least bit sorry to disappoint you. I'm merely pointing out all the holes in the claims everyone keeps making.

Joe Offer is really just laying his groundwork for censoring the political posts of certain people, myself included. But anyone who thinks Joe is going to stop with me ought to have their heads examined.

Power corrupts, and I think we all know how the saying about absolute power goes, don't we?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:33 PM

BTW, did I forget to mention catspaw, just how much enjoyment I get out of exposing the holes in these inane arguments?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:36 PM

The only thing you are exposing are the holes in your cranium. The Mudcat is an evolving entity, unlike yourself, and as such, things change - live with it or leave. Nobody's falling for your obfuscatory manipulations.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: stevetheORC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:44 PM

Dear Guest in answer to your question is there a 'Mudcat definition of an idiot? or Of an asshole?' I think that the answer is yes its you.
Please go on and have a full and joyus life elsewhere as you are becoming tedious if you dont like Joe's rulling then kindly piss off.

Steve the Orc


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: JudeL
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:47 PM

As Big Mick said "It is this simple. Max, Joe, and Jeff make the rules. You follow them. If you can't live with them, leave." At the end of the day it is their forum and they make the rules. No-one is forcing you to stay, if you feel restricted by being asked to have some manners then you are free to leave.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM

No, I don't think that is the way it works here. But you can surely ask Gargoyle about it. If Max, Joe, and Jeff don't like a poster, they have remedies available to them to block that person from gaining access to the forum to post.

So I guess if Max, Joe, and/or Jeff don't block me from posting, then since it is their forum, at the end of the day, I guess those who dislike me have to co-exist with me, don't they?

I've never felt restricted in any way here, actually. And as to being asked to have some manners, well...I just consider the source. There are some pretty ill mannered people who post quite regularly as members of this forum. I don't think I'm any more guilty of being ill mannered than many, many others here.

So we are back to that perception thing again, aren't we?

If I get banished, then I get banished. Won't bother me a bit, because I not only have a life, I have other forums I use online.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,eavesdropper
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM

"BM", Does that stand for bowel movement? You are a fuck in other threads and you are still a fuck in this one.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: toadfrog
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:25 PM

O.k., Joe, it appears to me that the policies you propose are desirable and probably necessary. I don't argue with them. But from reading this thread, it looks like the policy of removing unidentified GUESTS from non-musical threads has not yet been implemented, or will not always be applied. That is a problem If you say you will do these things, they should be done consistently. Because arbitrary and capricious removal of posts is censorship in the worst sense of the word. If the policy is to strike GUESTS only when they seem to a person with authority to be out of line, it isn't right.

A modest proposal. If someone feels that old political threads must be retained, how about removing them and putting them all on disk, to be purchased for a modest price, like the DT?

Hi, Toadfrog-
What I said above is that the cut-and-past policy has been in place for quite some time, and it is being enforced. I have deleted cut-and-paste non-music articles that were posted by both members and non-members. The policy is stated at the top of this thread. My rule of thumb is that if a cut-and-paste article fills my screen, it's too long - a link and a summary are what we request.

I also stated that anonymous posting has become a problem, and I am seeking a solution. I asked that our Guests solve the problem themselves by simply using a consistent name and starting no more than one non-music thread per day.

Currently, there is no policy on this. We would like people to use common sense and common courtesy, but we have a few people who don't seem to understand those concepts.

Max and Jeff and I have never had any thought of deleting old threads, BS or Non-BS. We have occasionally had problems with people refreshing contentious old threads for the purpose of opening old wounds, so I have closed (but not deleted) a number of old threads, so that new messages cannot be posted. We also reserve the right to delete threads that appear to have been started simply for the purpose of attacking individuals or causing trouble. We do delete threads occasionally, but as seldom as we can.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:39 PM

Guest get used to it - I have.

In the last seven days...Two of my "barbed replies" into Joe's protected "pets" (curiously they most have animal names) were deleted.

This is NOT an "open-forum" such as you find in a newsgroup....it is a "civilized community" that is "moderated for the good of the society."

This is not public space...MAX pays the bills and that makes him GOD....he has anointed arch-angels to fullfil his wishes. The kid that brings the ball to playground gets to call the game. Don't bring them to account for principles, integrity, honor, or logic...they are "wind-tossed-waves" without a foundation.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

But...if you are perverse, like me...you can gain multiple pleasures by tallying the score of how many offensive posts are deleated...and even how long they remain on the server before being removed. Copy, cut and save...they will make good reading next winter.

Play Hard, Have Fun, and don't forget to practice your scales.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:46 PM

BTW - GUEST - I like your style....you may be a liberal and I a conservative - but at least we BOTH have convictions about open discourse.



The barb of hypocracy stings deepest in those proclaiming the most integrity.



You are a valued GUEST in my book and within this "community."



Sincerely,

Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:06 PM

"It's time for you either to shut up, or to use a name and take responsibility for what you have to say. If you continue to refuse to use a name, you will be come a non-person around here, and every single message you post will be deleted.
Free speech is fine, but you're just a pain in the ass.
-Joe Offer-"

So what exactly is the problem Joe? No name? Don't make me laugh. If I posted using a consistent name, you'd be no happier with my presence here. Because it isn't the default setting that pisses you off, it's my opinions.

Being selective in who you decide to "allow" free speech to, is censorship. ESPECIALLY when the person being censored is disliked, or their views and opinions are outside the mainstream or majority. That is pretty much the definition of censorship. People don't censor people they like and agree with--that just doesn't happen.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:21 PM

Obviously somebody is pushing to have major changes implemented around here as a direct result of their posts.

Gives one a little boost of the ego, what?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:32 PM

Actually Cluin, my reasons for contributing to this thread are exactly the same as the reasons other people who want to see this forum remain an open one for people with an interest in folk music to enjoy a free exchange of ideas, are contributing. I'm hoping to effect change all right. But it isn't to "force" Max to censor my posts. I'm posting so that Joe doesn't start censoring a lot of people's political posts.

I have no control over whether or not I'm blocked from this site. That is a decision made by the powers that be. What I'm trying to do is make the process a bit more transparent, because it seems to me that a lot of people are going to be happy to see posters they don't like censored. So like I said before, anyone who thinks that will end with me, is crazy.

It's a damn slippery slope, censorship.
You're absolutely right. And it's a slope I don't want to slide on. Start using a name, follow the policy on cut-and-paste articles, and maybe start thinking before you post. If your posts have more thought, fewer words, and a name, people might even start to respect what you have to say. People don't object to the content of your posts - it's your anonymity and the sheer volume of verbiage you flood us with. Don't force me to censor you. I get no pleasure from it.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:46 PM

Listen to Gargoyle....practice your scales.

When you want more challenge...harmonize them. It'll take your mind off EVERYTHING else!

Sorry, just too much fun NOT to post in this thread.

Aww poop. even I complained to Joe about somethin' last week....but then I realized it was my meds talkin' and I forgot what I wuz complainin' about.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: open mike
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 11:24 PM

whew! indigestion from the digest...
perhaps we need to impose a "members
only" or set up a paid membership to
make sure that those who are here
really want to be here??
this thread is beginning to be so
cumbersome to attempt to digest, it
is taking up so much time...


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: annamill
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 11:53 PM

Ok! Ok! Enough IS enough! Maybe it IS time to MAKE posters register!!
This way we know!! And to follow another thread, maybe with names on the posts Max, Joe and Jeff (MJJ) won't get busted for not informing.

If you have a thought,
Make it known, make it known!
Who you are! Who you are!
The first stone! The first stone!

Waddyawant? My first verse!

Damn, this IS scary!! Ain't it!!

Tra-La!

Love, annamill(feelincreativetonight)


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Neighmond
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:18 AM

What a scandel! Such a waste!
Spend all day to cut and paste.
To make a post is but in vain
When using fingers, not your brain.
Remeber, friends, as this you view
This onary trend you oughtn't do-
To quote the words, and miss the gist
And you'll not make the "naughty list."

FWIW
Chaz


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Blackcatter
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 01:50 AM

To me the funny thing is that paranoids always seem to think that those people out to get them are just BEGINIING to do so. GUEST - Joe could have been censoring political stuff all along - how owuld you know.

Same goes for the U.S. "erosion" of civil rights - my take is that civil rights have always been rather limited - it's jsut at certain times in history when the black hats in power don't have to be as secretive.

Thanks Joe - keep up the good work.

Everyone who doesn't like the rules - start your own site. There is no freedom of speech rights on a private website.

pax yall,


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 04:54 AM

Good grief! What an odorous bunch of horse-puckey! The only thing Joe is asking is that the people who post to this forum take a tiny modicum of responsibility for their postings by using an identifiable name to post by.

Joe, I applaud your optimism. Don't you know this is the no-responsibility age? Whatever they do, it's not THEIR fault; be it lying, stealing, or drug dealing. It's probably their PARENTS' fault, right? Or a teacher's, or who knows who...and where the hell were all these people when it was voting day? In Florida?

Lin in Kansas (who is proud to sign her name to her opinions, and in the spirit of most political threads, says "screw you" if you don't agree)

GO FOR IT, MAX, JOE, AND JEFF and all the JoeClones, too. BTW, feel free to delete this post any time you feel like it. It doesn't add a thing to the so-called discussion in this thread.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:43 AM

It's great having everyone looking at me. This is fun.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:17 PM

BillD, no it's NOT what nameless GUESTs do, because as you've pointed out, several members have "have posted a LOT of acrimonious stuff here which has not been touched." If things were as fair as you claim, would that be so? You and the rest of the Annoyingly Shrill Gang complain about GUEST posts regardless of content. But like you said, BillD, "why do I bother?" You only venture into BS threads so you can climb up on your self-made pedestal to harrumph and click your tongue disapprovingly. So I really don't take your opinions on the matter seriously, anyway.

Joe, reasonable arguments, but again, does this really call for such heavy-handed treatment? I don't think most people have a problem following threads with anon. GUESTs, cutting-and-pasting, etc. I can see why you might like to keep the really long articles out, as they take up more space, but is this really such an epidemic that you need to delete any threads containing them? Cut-and-pasted long articles are relatively rare, and usually only become very common on fast-moving threads during a time of crisis (9/11, war, Israeli genocide, etc.). And it's usually members who do it, anyway, so you can easily yell at them for it.

I urge you not to further erode the "rights" of Mudcatters, no matter how many "Yay Joe!" or "Hear, hear, Joe!" or "Joe shits pure gold!" comments you may get from the Mudcat old-timer minority for your efforts. There's much more to the place than them.

And to all the love-it-or-leave-it crowd: So, what, no room for dissent on "your" forum? I thought you hippy types liked that kind of thing? Fucking sell-outs.

Oh, almost forgot Nigel: You're not making any sense with that "come back to look at old threads" thing, so I'll just mark you off as "insane" and move on.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:31 PM

Lepus: the fact that you have trouble understanding me does not really mean that I am insane.
But I never claimed otherwise! *BG*

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM

Annoyingly Shrill or not, I've often enough indicated my dislike of the whole business of nameless GUESTs, especially when they start threads. The medium not the message.

Even if the nameless GUESTs were all great guys posting great stuff the mere fact of choosing to post without a handle damages the flow of conversation on the Mudcat.

It's nothing to do with anonymity, taking that to mean that nobody knows who you are in the real world - everybody is as anonymous as they choose to be, and using a nickname or number when entering as GUEST doesn't in any way interfere with that, as has been pointed out time and time again.

If all the GUESTs were great guys posting great stuff it'd still be annoying trying to follow the train of an argument, since you can get three or four nameless GUESTs arguing with each other, or possibly with themself, in a single thread.

But of course they aren't - and when a nameless GUEST starts being unpleasant, or distorting what others have said, or setting out to generally foul things up, it's inevitable that it affects the way people have reacted to other nameless GUESTs - even sometimes to people who just haven't yet worked out how the Mudcat works technically.

When a member posts something that crosses over the line of acrimony, you can PM them and tell them they are being a pillock, without it turning into a fight with everyone piling in. Of course you can't do that with any GUEST - but with the nameless ones it's difficulty even to criticise one without criticising the rest, because for all you know they are the same person anyway.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 01:17 PM

It's all preaching to the perverted, anyway.

And it's all still about ego, Guest. Nothing is changed.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Guest
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 01:32 PM

I recently started the 'Anti-War Song' thread under the name 'The Hated Guest', and that was deleted. So now, that thread seems to have been started by a 'nameless' guest. Seems the rules here are whimsical and constantly in flux.

Something I find amusing is how the registered users behave when they can't resort to PM's. All that venom and vitriol...maybe THAT is why folks don't want to register. Can you imagine having to deal with all that rabidity every time you log on? Not worth it. You folks must chew on each other REALLY badly when the rest of the forum isn't looking.

Click for Anti-War Song thread

Believe me, Jeff and the JoeClones and I have better things to do that to delete your name. As far as I can figure out, your entry in the name blank must not have "taken" for some reason - but nobody messed with it.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: toadfrog
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM

I basically agree with Joe's proposals, but still request an answer to my earlier question. Will it be applied uniformly, and when will such uniform application begin? I agree that anonymous GUESTS, especially in political threads, are an unnecessary evil. I even agree that some personal attacks should maybe be deleted.

But if the rule is, all stuff which seems offensive to some specific person must go, that is not right, regardless of how wonderful that individual may be.
Well, Toadfrog, I suppose you could say policy will NOT be applied uniformly. If it is is implemented, it will be enforced chiefly when things are nasty here. When things are calm, there's no reason to bother. Nobody pays me to be a policeman. I'm here to have a good time, and to study folk music. When things get out of hand, I do what I have to do to settle things down. I'm not going to make a list of rules for people to follow, and I'm not going to spell out the things we do to take care of problems around here.
We do what we can to ensure that the discussion here will be interesting and lively, but reasonably civil and safe. If people are nasty, we'll do what we have to do to control them.
Sorry, I don't go for legalism, and there's no reason for law or due process on a site like this. I got paid to play cop for 25 years, and I have no desire to do it here. I'm here for the music and the friends I've met here.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM

Make your mind up please - do you want to be Dreaded or Hated?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Guest
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 03:13 PM

I only chose the handle 'Hated' to remind all the 'open-minded' individuals on Mudcat how they had villified me back when I was posting anonymously. I suspect that now, though, as you all watch your families being terrorized by sneering organized crime bosses telling you to buy duct tape, my initial posts may not seem so outlandish. Maybe now y'all don't hate me as much as dread what I have to say. So I've decided to downgrade the alert from 'Hated' to 'Dreaded'. I will continue to monitor for increased chatter and upgrade or downgrade as needed.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 03:31 PM

How is it possible to vilify an individual when you've no idea whether it's that individual or another one?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:09 AM

toadfrog refreshed the "Open Letter from Max to GUESTS" thread, I'm guessing in response to his questions to Joe in this thread going unanswered. Joe's threats to GUESTS have been made before, but never acted upon by Max, Joe, or the clones.

For people who are reading this, who aren't up to reading a 250+ thread, I am linking to my two consecutive posts there, which cross-references this thread. The posts are relevant to both threads.

thread.cfm?threadid=44076&messages=289#895783


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:26 AM

Wouldn't it be possible to have a filter for unnamed GUESTS? Then they could post away as much as they liked, and people who want to read them could read them, and people who didn't would activate the filter?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM

And a filter that could also screen out members who we don't want to read too? It is called a "killfile" in Usenet.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:58 AM

McGrath, if they're intent on being pains in the arse without people saying "oh - it's just HER/HIM again" there's nothing to stop them typing random characters into the "FROM" box.

I don't believe the people are the problem, it's their behavior. Granted, there are some anon guests (alright - maybe just one) who post huge piles of messages and huge piles of words which do little more than provoke emotional reactions from those ill-equipped to recognise or even wish to ignore those reactions, but say something worthwhile once in a while. There are other folks who love to get into arguments, no matter who it is they're arguing with or how many times they've said the same thing different ways. I can't imagine a behavior filter. If so, I'd like one to filter out the massive number of bait-biting replies as well.

BS cut-and-paste deletion is pretty easy to enforce and applies accross the board to everyone. It prevents frequent repetition of other people's words, but since the articles were found by the poster, they should still be available to anyone else. Whether a person links to the reference or posts the whole thing doesn't make a whole lot of difference except how much space it takes up here.

Not censorship. Not even a big enough deal to warrant all this "Joe's pickin' on me" stuff ...except the persecution angle always seems to make a really great troll.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,eavesdropper
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 10:41 AM

After reading the above drivel...I categorize more than a few of you Thorazine riddled brain stem only non-entities on the same level as "BM". Or as an astute observer stated in another controversial thread, some of you disoriented fucks are "thread lifers", who have opinions about everything AND even a decent every month or so. As for Joe Offer and his henchmen, these people RUN this website...it SHOULD be their decision what is discussed. I am surprised that some discussions (?) are allowed to live as long as they do. So, yes, shape your drug and alcohol induced worthless asses or exit by the nearest door.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 10:50 AM

If Mudcat can provide a BS filter, Mudcat can provide other filters, including a killfile filter for specific log-in names. McGrath's & my idea is actually a good one, which would prevent overzealous "moderation". Killfiles and filters are excellent quick fixes in circumstances just like the one we have at Mudcat. There are a lot of people who don't want to read guest postings, where the guest doesn't use a handle. Very simple thing to filter, as is "Jeri" or "catspaw49" or "McGrath of Harlow".

If Max wanted to, he could have solved these problems quickly and easily, a long time ago. But since he has done nothing to solve the problems of bad behavior in the forum, and has only exacerbated the member/guest wars, it is hard to reach any other conclusion than Max prefers the forum being the mess that is in this regard.

Since most everyone here is in agreement that Max having it this way and his way, is more important than working out the problems in the forum that can easily be remedied, then I guess members should quit bitching too. Because this forum is the way it is for one reason only--Max wants it this way.

So don't kid yourselves folks. Even if the guest log-in is gone tomorrow, the problems will remain because this is the kind of forum Max wants.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 08:18 PM

Cut and Paste rule is common sense.

Forcing GUESTS to sign on is not acceptable. I was a GUEST here for a while. I won't give my info to a site until I have a chance to see whether I want them to have it. (Yeah, I know - use phony info. And I do when I need to).

Censorship is a slippery slope. First political threads, then Punch the Horse, then horror of horrors Captain Kirk. Combining similar threads makes sense. Removing threatening or obscene attacks - OK by me. I am a little confused - what in the world did Mark say about the weather to have his words censored????
This one has to be thought through carefully and a policy established and published in the FAQ page.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 08:28 PM

Sinsull, the first time "Mark" is used in this thread as a name is in your post. Could you elaborate please?


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 08:34 PM

Sorry. Mark Cohen in the I'z Startin' To Hate Snow thread.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 08:40 PM

Oh. Had a look. I suspect Mark was being a smarty-pants.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 08:42 PM

Guest, I see the type of filtering you suggest as involving a lot of work and achieving little if anything. I've had a go at Max myself over tech issues such as BS filtering but I do think you are pushing it more than a little with those suggestions.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:21 PM

Sins, no one is making GUESTS "sign on" just take a consistent number or other signifier to use along with the generic "guest" title. No one's going to tie them down to that nickname or whatever if they decide to join up and become a genuine member.:-)

Mark got me with that one for a minute, too. Pretty slick that one!

kat


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:23 PM

he hee
Sorry Joe. Back to the topic at hand.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 10:17 PM

well, Lepus...you managed to distort my point with a less than clear paraphrase instead of a careful quote...

what I said was..."Several of you, including RichM and Lepus Rex ,,,(AND gargoyle) have posted a LOT of acrimonious stuff here which has not been touched, edited OR deleted...." where 'several of you' INCLUDES anonymous guests. I did NOT limit that to 'members'... (gargoyle is not a 'member'...though he could be if he wanted to be)

.......the point being that censorship falls on those who fail to follow the rules, which obviously means that, since those who REFUSE to follow the rules ARE usually anonymous non-members, of course they get the majority of the censorship!

as to: "But like you said, BillD, "why do I bother?" You only venture into BS threads so you can climb up on your self-made pedestal to harrumph and click your tongue disapprovingly. So I really don't take your opinions on the matter seriously, anyway."

you obviously don't take me seriously enough to READ my posts in many BS threads...I say what I think about many issues...I ALSO take the time to 'harrumph' when I see disruptive posting as an issue. If 'clicking my tongue' means attempting to find rational ways for us all to come to an understanding, instead of shouting matches and wild accusations, then I plead guilty!....

I am not sure what a 'self-made pedestal' is. What is it that you climb on to post and criticize? Is your pedestal store bought? Can I borrow it, so I can be taken seriously, too, huh?

(I still ask myself why I bother sometimes, as I don't really expect to change the minds of those who are SURE the local management is corrupt....I guess it just helps me to clarify my own thoughts. Not a bad goal, hmmmm?)


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:17 PM

GUEST 9:09 A.M.: My purpose in refreshing the old Max thread was actually to support Joe, not to demonstrate that old "threats" were not executed. But I still do mean what I said.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:34 PM

Nope - I can't be "member" just tried - it wouldn't accept my handle because it is "already taken by another member."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Groucho and I will continue to sit the corner and enjoy our cigars.


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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:48 PM

GUEST - I don't believe you are obnoxious enough. On a really good week I have sometimes had two and even three deletions - hmmm - perhaps they could all be combined into one thread.

Probably my favorite deletion was a simple plan for spoofing Mudcat identities by cloning the cookie code. Joe rightfully killed it because the maintenance required to clean it up would steal from his time spent in supporting the "musical dialogues."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

YOU NAILED MY MOTIVATION - its the same as yours and Joe's and Max's, and the little pussycats It's great having everyone looking at me. This is fun.

Keep Up The Good Work


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