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BS: Who's marching on February 15th?

McGrath of Harlow 10 Feb 03 - 06:20 PM
maire-aine 10 Feb 03 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 10 Feb 03 - 06:36 PM
NicoleC 10 Feb 03 - 06:43 PM
catspaw49 10 Feb 03 - 06:45 PM
boglion 10 Feb 03 - 06:45 PM
Bobert 10 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM
Sorcha 10 Feb 03 - 07:25 PM
Rustic Rebel 10 Feb 03 - 07:47 PM
Cllr 10 Feb 03 - 07:56 PM
Walking Eagle 10 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 03 - 08:18 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 03 - 08:27 PM
InOBU 10 Feb 03 - 08:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Feb 03 - 08:51 PM
Bobert 10 Feb 03 - 10:10 PM
InOBU 10 Feb 03 - 10:16 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 03 - 10:18 PM
Bobert 10 Feb 03 - 10:30 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 03 - 10:44 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 03 - 10:52 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 03 - 10:54 PM
leprechaun 10 Feb 03 - 11:15 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 03 - 11:25 PM
leprechaun 10 Feb 03 - 11:41 PM
GUEST 11 Feb 03 - 12:01 AM
Hrothgar 11 Feb 03 - 05:39 AM
Teribus 11 Feb 03 - 06:15 AM
belfast 11 Feb 03 - 07:35 AM
*daylia* 11 Feb 03 - 07:39 AM
InOBU 11 Feb 03 - 08:10 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Feb 03 - 09:03 AM
Bagpuss 11 Feb 03 - 09:15 AM
InOBU 11 Feb 03 - 09:34 AM
InOBU 11 Feb 03 - 09:40 AM
GUEST 11 Feb 03 - 10:10 AM
*daylia* 11 Feb 03 - 10:16 AM
katlaughing 11 Feb 03 - 10:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Feb 03 - 10:41 AM
Partridge 11 Feb 03 - 10:57 AM
mmm1a 11 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM
*daylia* 11 Feb 03 - 11:15 AM
JennyO 11 Feb 03 - 12:37 PM
GUEST 11 Feb 03 - 12:56 PM
GUEST 11 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM
DougR 11 Feb 03 - 05:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Feb 03 - 05:45 PM
gnu 11 Feb 03 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,guest 11 Feb 03 - 06:48 PM
Marion 11 Feb 03 - 07:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Feb 03 - 07:56 PM
Jon Bartlett 11 Feb 03 - 08:26 PM
open mike 11 Feb 03 - 08:52 PM
leprechaun 11 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Feb 03 - 10:13 PM
Rustic Rebel 11 Feb 03 - 10:30 PM
DougR 12 Feb 03 - 01:22 AM
InOBU 12 Feb 03 - 06:22 AM
Mrrzy 12 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM
JennyO 12 Feb 03 - 08:33 PM
Bobert 12 Feb 03 - 08:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Feb 03 - 09:32 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 03 - 10:48 PM
Catarina 13 Feb 03 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Norton1 13 Feb 03 - 12:27 PM
Emma B 13 Feb 03 - 01:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 03 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Mimsey 13 Feb 03 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,JTT 13 Feb 03 - 02:24 PM
Don Firth 13 Feb 03 - 02:43 PM
Ed. 13 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM
*daylia* 13 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 03 - 03:11 PM
katlaughing 13 Feb 03 - 03:14 PM
Melani 13 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM
Ebbie 13 Feb 03 - 04:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 03 - 04:45 PM
Ed. 13 Feb 03 - 05:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 03 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,Norton1 13 Feb 03 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Norton1 13 Feb 03 - 06:15 PM
Ebbie 13 Feb 03 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Q 13 Feb 03 - 07:31 PM
katlaughing 13 Feb 03 - 07:34 PM
Bobert 13 Feb 03 - 07:43 PM
GUEST 13 Feb 03 - 07:53 PM
Gareth 13 Feb 03 - 07:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 03 - 08:39 PM
Steve in Idaho 13 Feb 03 - 10:29 PM
leprechaun 13 Feb 03 - 10:51 PM
Bobert 13 Feb 03 - 11:08 PM
Steve in Idaho 13 Feb 03 - 11:26 PM
Bobert 13 Feb 03 - 11:43 PM
Steve in Idaho 14 Feb 03 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,maureen cummuskey 14 Feb 03 - 12:17 AM
Melani 14 Feb 03 - 12:46 AM
Melani 14 Feb 03 - 12:48 AM
katlaughing 14 Feb 03 - 12:53 AM
katlaughing 14 Feb 03 - 01:11 AM
DougR 14 Feb 03 - 01:47 AM
EBarnacle1 14 Feb 03 - 02:26 AM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Feb 03 - 06:20 AM
Gareth 14 Feb 03 - 06:55 AM
Catarina 14 Feb 03 - 07:02 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 03 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,JTT 14 Feb 03 - 08:01 AM
Ringer 14 Feb 03 - 08:40 AM
TIA 14 Feb 03 - 08:45 AM
HuwG 14 Feb 03 - 08:58 AM
TIA 14 Feb 03 - 11:01 AM
EBarnacle1 14 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM
EBarnacle1 14 Feb 03 - 11:24 AM
Mrrzy 14 Feb 03 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,alinact 14 Feb 03 - 12:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Feb 03 - 04:27 PM
Don Firth 14 Feb 03 - 04:55 PM
GUEST 14 Feb 03 - 06:10 PM
SINSULL 14 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 14 Feb 03 - 07:11 PM
Steve in Idaho 14 Feb 03 - 07:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM
Ebbie 14 Feb 03 - 07:56 PM
Susan A-R 14 Feb 03 - 10:42 PM
Bobert 14 Feb 03 - 11:40 PM
thosp 14 Feb 03 - 11:46 PM
Gareth 15 Feb 03 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM
GUEST 15 Feb 03 - 05:51 AM
Noreen 15 Feb 03 - 08:24 AM
Peg 15 Feb 03 - 11:55 AM
Bobert 15 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM
leprechaun 15 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM
momnopp 15 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM
Don Firth 15 Feb 03 - 04:12 PM
Bobert 15 Feb 03 - 04:58 PM
Steve in Idaho 15 Feb 03 - 05:05 PM
DougR 15 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Feb 03 - 05:31 PM
catspaw49 15 Feb 03 - 05:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM
Don Firth 15 Feb 03 - 05:40 PM
GUEST 15 Feb 03 - 05:55 PM
*daylia* 15 Feb 03 - 05:56 PM
GUEST 15 Feb 03 - 06:48 PM
InOBU 15 Feb 03 - 06:50 PM
katlaughing 15 Feb 03 - 07:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Feb 03 - 07:52 PM
Bobert 15 Feb 03 - 07:59 PM
Ebbie 15 Feb 03 - 08:17 PM
Noreen 16 Feb 03 - 12:54 AM
Lepus Rex 16 Feb 03 - 09:13 AM
Lepus Rex 16 Feb 03 - 09:14 AM
Marion 16 Feb 03 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Bubba 16 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM
belfast 16 Feb 03 - 10:05 AM
TIA 16 Feb 03 - 10:22 AM
*daylia* 16 Feb 03 - 11:25 AM
Bobert 16 Feb 03 - 11:50 AM
Steve in Idaho 16 Feb 03 - 12:30 PM
Joe Offer 16 Feb 03 - 12:51 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 12:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM
*daylia* 16 Feb 03 - 01:38 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 01:52 PM
Don Firth 16 Feb 03 - 03:16 PM
*daylia* 16 Feb 03 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Hated Guest 16 Feb 03 - 03:29 PM
Ebbie 16 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM
Susan A-R 16 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM
Don Firth 16 Feb 03 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Hated Guest 16 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,HG 16 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM
Don Firth 16 Feb 03 - 10:37 PM
Steve in Idaho 17 Feb 03 - 12:13 AM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 12:34 AM
DougR 17 Feb 03 - 01:40 AM
EBarnacle1 17 Feb 03 - 02:11 AM
GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 17 Feb 03 - 12:47 PM
Don Firth 17 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM
brid widder 17 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM
Penny S. 17 Feb 03 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,The Hated Guest 17 Feb 03 - 07:55 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 08:02 PM
DougR 17 Feb 03 - 08:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Feb 03 - 08:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Feb 03 - 08:52 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 17 Feb 03 - 08:55 PM
Don Firth 17 Feb 03 - 09:06 PM
Rustic Rebel 18 Feb 03 - 01:50 AM
Charley Noble 18 Feb 03 - 12:14 PM
DougR 18 Feb 03 - 05:08 PM
Penny S. 18 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM
Don Firth 18 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM
Don Firth 18 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM
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Peter K (Fionn) 22 Feb 03 - 02:57 PM
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Subject: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:20 PM

Marches all over the world on Saturday 15th against the war. - even in Antarctica!

Holland - Germany - Greece - Thailand - Spain - Ireland - Switzerland - Scotland - Belgium - Denmark - Canada - Bulgaria
Cuba - Finland - Turkey - Indonesia - S.Africa - Portugal - Norway - Brazil - Sweden - Australia - New Zealand - Ecuador
Russia - Japan - Austria - Italy - Tasmania - Korea - Iceland - Slovenia - Czech Republic - Malta - Poland - Hungary - Uruguay - Nicaragua - Rwanda - Netherlands - USA - Alaska - Hawaii - England - France - Mexico - Argentina - Antarctica! (And I doubt if that's all.)

That link at the head of the post gives links to contacts for most of them.

Here's a link to the one in London, which I plan to go on, and details of events on the previous day, St Valentine's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: maire-aine
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:26 PM

I'm planning to attend the march in Detroit MI, starting at Kennedy Square (to Cobo Hall) at 1:00 PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:36 PM

Nude being only optional this time ,right ? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:43 PM

It's the 16th out in SF instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:45 PM

There is a 24 hour vigil in Columbus which we will be there for.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: boglion
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:45 PM

Nearly everyone I know seems to be marching in London on Saturday. All my mates from my local pub are going. None of us has demonstrated for at least 20 years on any topic. The pub is opening early to supply bracing coffee and to allow us to gather.

My daughter and nephew, who have never marched for anything are going separately with groups of friends. I get the impression this is going to be an ENORMOUS march. It could even get dangerously crowded in the centre. We are expecting to have to walk into the gathering point - we suspect public transport won't cope.

It won't stop anything - the decision is already made - but what else can we do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM

We don't have anything planned fro D.C. and New York is out of the question. I'll have to miss this one BUT should the US invade Iraq there will be a massive protest the Sunday afterwards at the White House.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:25 PM

Aw, man, nearest one to me is Lincoln, NE........10 hr drive. Don't know if I have the energy to set one up here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:47 PM

McGrath that is a great link you gave.Thanks. I'm going to Minneapolis, Minnesota. It's about a four hour drive. Canada is closer to me, but I would rather rally with my state folks.
Peace. Rustic, once again chanting, no-war, no-war!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Cllr
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:56 PM

Sorry Im watching the england france match, a real war Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM

ME! In Philadelphia, PA. Actually, I'll be in a van due to cancer in one hip and a hip replacement in the other.

Sorcha, you sound like the peaceful, resourceful type that could gather some like minded friends and have a peace prayer or little walk at your home/ranch/farm? You go girl!

Walking (hardly) Eagle


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 08:18 PM

Nude won't be an option at the Minneapolis demo, for obvious reasons! This is GREAT!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 08:27 PM

BTW, the federal judge hearing the case on the NY demo/march planned to go past the UN has denied the permit for the march, citing "heightened security." Around 60 anti-war protestors who showed up at a library in Massachusetts to protest an appearance by compassionate hawk, Sen John Kerry, were forcibly pushed back from the picket line they had formed near the library. When asked why by the media, the police claimed "heightened security" as the reason.

Seems "heightened security" is now the justification being used to kill off the Bill of Rights, starting right there with #1, the constitutional right to peaceful assembly. I think the Bushites fear that if the hundreds of thousands of people marching in the street might make people question the results of their propaganda wing's polls that say Americans are all for this war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 08:39 PM

Hi Bobbert... If ya want to come to NY and march with the Quakers, there is a room for ya... CHeers Larry PS I am marching as is me wee wiffie


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 08:51 PM

No Mudcatters in the Antarctic? That sounds like a world first. Fair enough - this war, if it comes, will be a world first as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:10 PM

Larry:

Workin' on it, my friend. Workin' on it....

Peace..

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:16 PM

Information on the NYC march here. Obit: US Alerts guard against the Constitution ... Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:18 PM

For those of you in small towns who feel too isolated to protest, here are some ideas for organizing locally, from Indy Media in Madison Wisconsin:

Minocqua Anti-War protest
Monday, February 10, 2003
For the past 7 Saturdays, a coalition of area Anarchists, Pacifists and Church people gather in Minocqua which is one of the increasing list of "smaller" towns holding anti-war rallies. At the corner of HWY 51 and 70 from 10am to noon over 50 demonstrators brave the cold weather. YellowJack Distro collective members can regularly be found at this protest, as well as the Wausau's Friday night protests.

You can see their photos & read more about it here:

http://madison.indymedia.org/


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:30 PM

Good Guest, good...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:44 PM

And if you need some cheering up, go here:

Get Your War On:

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war19.html

Spin on This!

http://spin-on-this.com/

Humor is Dead:

http://www.humorisdead.com/

Ironic Times:

http://www.ironictimes.com/index.html

My personal faves, the White House:

http://whitehouse.org/


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:52 PM

And for the best, most entertaining anti-war and other progressive paraphenalia, get a catalog or order online from Northern Sun Merchandising--they're the best! So, whether your town is big or small, you can wear your message on your sleeve, your jacket, your car, your baseball cap, your walls, your windows...

http://www.northernsun.com/

Or put yourself to work for the Propaganda Remix Project, and poster your small town or neighborhood with these great propaganda posters:

http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/PhotoAlbum1.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:54 PM

As noted above, we will be marching on February 16th in the San Francisco Bay Area (conflict on the 15th with the Chinese New Year celebration). Please join us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: leprechaun
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:15 PM

May I suggest, that if the police fail to repress you folks to your liking, that you smash windows, turn over cars, block traffic, invade hotels and meeting rooms, and throw things at the police? Rocks and chunks of concrete are almost always available in urban settings, but a sharpened skillsaw blade makes a very nice anti-war frisbee. Then when the police respond, you can relish your self-fulfilling prophesy about being repressed. Blame the police for starting the violence, or blame agent provocateurs.

People with the strongest throwing arms should stay in the back of the crowd, and make sure there's a phalanx of "peaceful protesters" in the front lines to block the police from getting to the designated berzerkers.

And remember, if you haven't done anything overtly violent in the four seconds before the police release the tear gas, then you're a "peaceful protester." Even if you're screaming obscenities at the "jack-booted thugs," you're still a peaceful protester, because you're just exercising your right to free speech.

Don't forget to bring small children with you, especially if you plan to riot. They make an excellent shield against streams of pepper spray. And afterward you can show your crying baby to the news media and say, (now repeat after me) "I only wanted my child to see how free people voice their opinions in America, and for that the police tortured her."

The NYPD doesn't want you to protest? I wonder why. Do you think it has anything to do with your opinion or your message? Hell it does. If you really want peace, I challenge you to keep your protests consistent with your message. If you want to lecture people on how to be peaceful then demonstrate peacefully. I've seen it done, unfortunately on rare occasions.

If you can have these protests without getting violent, then God bless you all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:25 PM

What planet do you reside on, leprechaun? Name one anti-war protest against this war that has turned violent. No? That's right, you can't.

Looks like red baitin' to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: leprechaun
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:41 PM

I think I've been to more demonstrations, protests and riots than you Guest. I can't name one RECENT anti-war protest that has turned violent yet. I hope I won't be able to. I also hope this war doesn't happen.

And I hope I go home in one piece from the next demonstration I go to. Because if I'm there, it will be because I have to be, as much to protect the protesters themselves as anybody else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:01 AM

From the new USA PATRIOT Act. 802, a, 5, B, ii. Geez. What a dilemma. YOU are the terrorist if you...well, read it for yourself. I imagine there are similar laws in Europe, but this is what we'll see if the cops in America have the fortitude to put into effect Feb. 15. Watch out for people in your crowds with ski masks. If they go violent (throw trashcans, etc), they are govt provocateurs. Take care of them FAST or the cops will take care of you, like at the protest against the WTO in Seattle. Ski-masked 'marchers' gave the police there a reason to riot:

SEC. 802. DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM.
(a) DOMESTIC TERRORISM DEFINED- Section 2331 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
(1) in paragraph (1)(B)(iii), by striking `by assassination or kidnapping' and inserting `by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping';
(2) in paragraph (3), by striking `and';
(3) in paragraph (4), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; and'; and
(4) by adding at the end the following:
`(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
`(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
`(B) appear to be intended--
`(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
`(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
`(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
`(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:39 AM

11.00 a.m. Sunday 16th here. That's about 7.00 p.m. US East Coast time.

Oh, to answer the question - everybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:15 AM

I think I'll be doing the same as Cllr, watching the England v France game.

I gave up marching along with a number of other things quite a few years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: belfast
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 07:35 AM

And we'll be marching here in Belfast. Not that I believe we can actully stop anything but it's helps a little to be able to say that this war is not being carried out in our name.

And afterwards there's sure to be a some music and songs, a couple of pints and a bit of craic, sorry, I mean crack, no I mean craic ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 07:39 AM

Driving conditions permitting, I'll be in Toronto on the 15th. If not, I'll be 'doing my own thing' right here at home, hopefully with some like-minded people.

Thanks for the link, Kevin. Who knows, if I'm 'snowed in' (again), I may just be putting the last touches on your song 'White Snow of Springtime', for submission to the UNESCO collection of New Songs for Peace instead. That sounds pretty peaceful as well!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 08:10 AM

Hi Lep:
Just as to folks who don't know individual police, all cops and police departments look alike. I know that is not true, as in my work I work with lots of police even police who specialize in racially profiling Roma (Gypsies) and even in that subgroup you find police trying to do their job in a way that I feel is sinsericly respectful of constitutional rights, and some who feel the constitution does not apply to "Gypsies".
The same is true of demonstrators and demonstrations. You are possibly thinking of the Anti Globalisation marches, 99.999 percent of the folks involved in which are law abiding and good citizens. However, Peace marches tend to be well marshalled. From my earliest days of activism, when I was a wee child, we Quakers were involved with other groups in creating non-violent ways of keeping peace at demonstrations. One thing we practiced doing during the Viet Nam war rallys, was to ring and hug violent demonstrators keeping their hands pinned by a crush of Friends until they calmed down.
Now why where peace folks getting crazy during those days? When I was about 13, my girl friend came back from a demonstration against the war with blood all over her face. A hard hat (I never heard the term before that, it may have been the first construction worker attack on a peace demo) had split her scalp with a wrench. A middle aged man had hit a thirteen year old Quaker girl in the head with a wrench because she felt sending 45,000 Americans to their death was a bad idea.
We need to see each other as individuals. It may not surprise you to learn that at a rally at our senitors office a few months ago, I took an organiser of the War Resister's League to task for being wize assed with the ranking officer on the site. The police wanted to know if there was going to be civl disobedience, and the fellow was being a wise ass in responce. I pointed out that he may think that we are also building a culture of peace, and respect for each other is an important part of that.
All the best
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:03 AM

wHO'S mARCHING?

A bunch of uninformed morons!

Why weren't marching when the Iraquis were gassing people?

Why dont you march to tell Iraq to comply with un mandates?

The true path to piece is for dictators to cooperate with the world community.

The choice is for Iraq!

What do they have to hide so much as to limit inspectors and fail to cooperate.

If you are going to march march against Iraq- I see but it is more fun to march against the usa....
Our government wont shoot you for protesting...

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:15 AM

"Why weren't marching when the Iraquis were gassing people?"

Many of the people marching have been involved in human rights demonstrations in the past, highlighting issues such as the Iraqi treatment of their own people. This was about the same time as the governments of our countries were supporting and arming Saddam, so that he could continue doing just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:34 AM

Conrad... I have often defended you and your right to an orange perspective, even though you often present that point of view in less than gentlemanly ways. Let me just set you straight on a few things, I am marching, I have a degree in political science and a juris doctorate, I am working on the rights of minorities in places like the Chitagong Hills, which you may or may not know about... but, I don't assume you are ignorant on anything other than that which you comment on, that being our knowlege
and yes, I marched against the killing of Kurds, and before that for the rights of Kurds while those you support were building up Mr. Husain.
Cheers, from another Ulster prot, albeit a Quaker
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:40 AM

One more thing, Conrad, the reason more people with higher degrees vote democratic, though, the best of two lesser political notions, is that in places like Bangladesh, the US builds up right wing moslem governments, as it is our policy to destablize the third world, always has, we send guns to Somalia, and no food for fifty years then call them barbarians when we send food at last and get shot. The world is a much more complex place than you may emagine. It would take a long paper to explain fully why we back dictators like Kalada Zia in Bangladesh, or in other lands, other than to say that as long as they are spending most of their engery to try and fight pluralism in their nations, an imposible task, they will not create a united third world in the way there is now a united western Europe and we just don't want any impediment on our extracting 70 percent of the worlds resourses... that is it in a nut shell. To get the full story, well, take some time from making wonderful funny cars (and they are wonderful) and travel to some of the places you would send troops.
All the best
and the cars are good folks,
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:10 AM

I think it is VERY important for people to get out and march, and to get involved and stay involved. The reason for that is bigger than the US/British invasion of Iraq. As I pointed out in the NATO & Anti-war Euros thread, the balance of power is shifting in so many ways right now, and it is shifting AGAINST the American/British empire. Their power and authority is being challenged very directly right now, in a way that imperial political power and ruthlessness never has been before.

So don't for a second believe that you going out to march and demostrate is having no effect, even if Bush/Blair invade Iraq. The resistance to the worst imperial aggressors in human history is astounding, and historic. You can be a part of that historic change--be one of the people bringing it on.

I also believe very strongly that the American public is starting to wake up to the fact that the Bush administration is trying to achieve a bloodless coup in terms of it's governance of this country. I'm not suggesting that they will suspend elections or anything. But I am saying that they are so ruthless, so naked in their aggression and will to dominate, that SOMETHING has to happen to check that here in the US. Are the Democrats biding their time to "see how the war goes" (probably) or are they planning a serious challenge to the Republican power base, that can finally shift the balance of power in US politics away from the conservative oligarchy, and back into the hands of the people?

Stay tuned people, it is getting VERY interesting!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:16 AM

When the same UN mandates are applied unilaterally against ALL nations, including the Americans, I'll be happy to march in support of them, leprechaun. I'm not holding my breath, though.

In the meantime, it might be well to admit that the current US adminstration couldn't care less about 'democracy', or for the 'welfare of the Iraqi people', or even about the safety of their own citizens, but only about controlling Iraq's oil reserves. If Saddam is ousted, the Americans will just set up another 'puppet gov't', tyrannical or not. The only thing that matters to the US is to install an Iraqi leader willing to give them all their oil at any price they dictate. That IS the bottom line, as anyone who IS informed knows only too well.

So wake up and smell the stench of blood and oil, leprechaun. REALITY CHECK!!!! And isn't it ironic, even strangely appropriate, that the remnants of the last great species to meet extinction on this planet will probably be reason humans exterminate themselves. If we don't change our ways, that is.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:18 AM

We will be marching on the 15th, here in Colorado at 1p MST.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:41 AM

Here's another link that might be handy to people in America - I found it in this article in today's Guardian (Internet brings together Americans against war)

MoveOn.org - "As weapons inspections in Iraq kick into high gear, most of us are breathing a sigh of relief. But some elements of the Bush Administration are still dead set on war, even if the inspections are working. President Bush has agreed that war should be the very last resort. Let's hold him and his administration to those words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Partridge
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:57 AM

I'll be marching in London on Saturday - never been part of a protest before.

Pat


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: mmm1a
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM

I'll Be in Fort wayne the 15th with my 20 year old daughter who was wo\ith me last month on the 18th. We are going to leave my 9 year old daughter home this timebecause of the weather.
                      mmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:15 AM

For a better illustration of the 'truth of the matter' than I could muster up,
click here. And here. And here too

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: JennyO
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:37 PM

There is a big march happening in Sydney on Sunday.

I will be in Newcastle (a couple of hours north) all weekend, and will be marching there on Saturday.

On Friday 21st I will be marching in a "women against the war" protest in Sydney.

On March 3rd, we will be part of an International Womens Day event in Sydney, called Women Gather for Peace.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:56 PM

I forgot to mention that there is a great way to keep informed instantly of anti-war protest info for Minnesotans, and it is called CircleVision.

Go here:

Minnesota Anti-War Action Email list

Click on "Information" and then click on "Action E List".

Of course, you don't have to be Minnesotan to get a lot out of this website, because it is a great website for anyone interested in peace and justice organizing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM

And I just stumbled across this list of Outstate Minnesota and Western Wisconsin actions too:

Outstate Minnesota & Western Wisconsin Anti-War Activities


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:25 PM

I haven't marched since I was in the Army. I wasn't very fond of it then, and nothing has happened since then that would cause me to want to take it up now. I will take my daily two mile walk though.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:45 PM

Better be careful where you go walking, Doug, or someone might misunderstand what you are up to...

Remember the scene in City Lights, wasn't it, where Charlie Chapln picks up a Red Flag that has fallen off the back of a lorry and walks along trying to give it back, and he finds himself leading a revolutionary crowd?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:29 PM

I guess I'll be marching alone. I, for one, will never march in support of the degradation of women, of minoritoes, of anyone opposing freedom and justice for all. I just posted to another thread that I watched the Dixie Chicks on SNL and couldn't imagine their being DENIED studying music in the society you defend, let alone entertaining on TV. ONLY in the good old USA and its allied countries do you have such freedom. Cherish it.

BTW, set your VCR's so that while you're on parade early Saturday you can tape men of valour and concience securing your future. Tis the risin of the moon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:48 PM

if you want the attention:- then do it in the nude!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Marion
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 07:07 PM

I plan on being there in Toronto.

Daylia, if you're interested in meeting up, PM me your phone number. You too, Peter T., if you'll be there.

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 07:56 PM

I don't think women are denied from studying music in Iraq, or most of the things they are stopped doing in Saudi Arabia. And, again quite unlike Saudi Arabia, there's no particular retrictions on the Christian minority, about 5% of the population. In fact there's a good chance that women and Christians might have a harder time in a new regime, which is only too likley to be fairly fundamentalist.

Saddam's Iraq is repressive all right, but it tends to be a relatively equal opportunities repression, compared to some of its neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 08:26 PM

The Vancouver Folk Song Society will be singin' for peace (again and again and again and again...) under our banner on the 15th: we're looking for a crowd bigger than our January turnout of c. 15,000.

Jon Bartlett

PS If Gnu wants to march for human rights, I'll be right there with him (or her).


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: open mike
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 08:52 PM

i do not know if there will be any marching at our rally,
but some of us will be leading sing-a-longs there--in Chico, CA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: leprechaun
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM

I much prefer the nude attention-getting plan to the throw things at cops attention-getting plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:13 PM

I'm with you on that leprechaun. I'm sure that'd be what all the cops would prefer too. Mind you, I suspect the authorities might much prefer to see the cops having things thrown at them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:30 PM

Thanks Guest for that link on outer-Mn. That gave me some places closer to home for Saturday. I appreciate that.
Peace. Rustic


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:22 AM

Not to worry, McGrath, I never carry a flag of any sort when taking my morning walk.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 06:22 AM

There is more on this subject on the Who needs Dr. M.L. King Jr. thread, cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM

Charlottesville is too, and we've passed an antiwar resolution, for what that's worth...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 08:33 PM

Here is another interesting example of the complexity of our time. Even the vets are marching - sorry can't do blue clickies:

http://www.vaiw.org/


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 08:43 PM

Yo, Larry (inOBU), Bobert here!

Man, Iz as bummed as I could be! We're getting a freezing rain here on saturdey to coat the top off the snow we've had here for the last 30 or 40 years. Well, when that happens, the power goes out and life becomes real difficult on the mountain. I have three cats, a dog and the P-Vine who are dependent on me to keep the jopint coming apart at the seams. Running the generator, keeping fires going and all the really brutal stuff that happens here when we loose power and can't get out.

Like I say, brother, I am bummed. But I will be in New York in spirit. Indeed I will. You tear 'em up! And keep in mind, the weekend after Chickenhawk Bush gets his invasion, it will be D.C. and you have a place to stay, provided we're thawed out some.

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 09:32 PM

Even the vets are marching

Who has better reasons? On a BBC programme studio debate type programme they had tonight, Iraq: Britain Decides, one of the most effective contributions was from Simon Weston, who was terribly burned in the Falklands, and though no pacifist, isn't at all convinced there's a case for this war. (And he's concerned about shoddy army equipment as well)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:48 PM

Happy to be of service to you Rustic Rebel, and I hope you make some new like-minded friends too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Catarina
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:55 AM

I'll be marching in Lisbon, and so will be everyone in the family who's under 60 and over 6 years old. Notable exception for my husband who will be staying at home with the baby - although demonstrations in Portugal tend to be fairy peaceful, it's too cold to take her out... Well, I guess most of you wouldn't say 11 degrees celsius is cold but for us here, it's freezing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:27 PM

Let's see - anti-war violence in recent memory.

Washington DC - the last march - a small group of Viet Nam Veterans stood their ground in refusing to let the peace marchers utilize the Viet Nam Memorial as a backdrop for their cause. They were assaulted by hundreds of the "in front" folks before the park police stopped it.

Super Bowl Sunday - A Marine Sgt. was going to the corner store for supplies for himself and his friends. About 15-20 Peace marchers assaulted him with sticks. He ended up having 8 stiches in his head and three in his jaw. Not to mention he was verbally assaulted multiple times as he attempted to egress the area. He did not assault back.

Yep love them peace marchers. And GUEST (Matriot I believe) you are so antagonistic towards others views that I believe you would assault those who do not march with you. You ask for respect but you give little of it.

I won't be marching. I've a child and a brother over there in harm's way, I've a child marching in the Northwest, I've a child who supports the administration and its position, and I personally support the efforts to remove Mr. Hussein from power. Now if the local Veterans decide to hold a vigil of some form I'll participate in that, I'll participate to keep everyone from using the memorials to my country's dead and service as a backdrop for their political agenda, and I will defend myself and anyone in my party against assaults from anyone.

Just my .02 worth
Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:40 PM

Leaving for London (via Sheffield to pick up friends) tomorrow. It's wonderful to know so many other people all over the world are involved. I haven't marched for years either but I can see no other way at all to express my views when this government appears prepared to act completly arbitrarily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:53 PM

Well, in London at any rate, the chances of any of us running into each other isn't too great, given the numbers expected. But who knows? Good to know you're here, and all the others round the world.

The Guardian today has a picture of those people at McMurdo Station in Antarctica. They're making a peace symbol in the snow. But the picture isn't on the website, so I can't link to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Mimsey
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:13 PM

My hubby and I will be marching in Asheville, NC on Saturday. First time ever that we've done so, but we feel that our contingent is not being heeded at all, and feel a need to be more visible. Last-ditch chance, it seems.

Best wishes to all others who will be joining in.

Mimsey


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:24 PM

Nearly everyone I know in Ireland is marching - from deeply conservative religious types to besuited salary-holders to the young to the old. 2pm from the Garden of Remembrance, to the Department of Foreign Affairs, where Christy Moore, Kila, Luka Bloom and Mary Coughlan and others will sing, Peter Sheridan, Paula Meehan and others will read their poems and speakers from a wide range of society will talk about the US plan for war, and on to the American embassy.

I've never seen anything like this. There is cross-community protest, very calm, very peaceful, very determined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:43 PM

Thanks for posting that first link, Kevin! And everybody else. Most encouraging! I knew about the one in Seattle (meeting at 11:30 a.m. at the Seattle Center fountain and going from there), but I wasn't sure what was going on elsewhere. You don't hear diddly-squat about this in the media.

Let's be sure we post figures in attendance and other information, because I have no confidence that the media will report the truth about this. They will undoubted under-report the figures by many orders of magnitude, because that's what they've been doing, especially lately. Since they haven't pulled the plug on the internet yet, let's use it to get the truth out.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ed.
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM

Both Glasgow and London are a long way from me, and given my current financial situation, attendance at either is impossible.

One question though: do you really think that it's make any difference?

According to Professor Peter Waddington (see this BBC article)"Protest generally is among the least rewarding of political activities."

I hate the idea of war too, and think it's an enormous mistake, but will marching through your nearest city change anything?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM

Here's a round-up from today's Guardian From Africa to Antarctica, people prepare to march for peace - "Up to 10 million people on five continents are expected to demonstrate against the probable war in Iraq on Saturday, in some of the largest peace marches ever known."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM

The link Kevin posted is updated daily too - I just found out there's a peace marches planned in both Orillia and Barrie on Saturday, which saves me the snowy (and treacherous) drive to Toronto.

So thanks again for the link Kevin - And to Mudcat for providing this important venue for the free flow of information.

If not for Mudcat I wouldn't have known about this at all. I've yet to hear mention of the plans for Feb 15 in the media here. But the latest Bin Laden tapes (???) are free for the downloading!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:11 PM

Here's a round-up from today's Guardian From Africa to Antarctica, people prepare to march for peace - "Up to 10 million people on five continents are expected to demonstrate against the probable war in Iraq on Saturday, in some of the largest peace marches ever known."

Actually, I make it all seven continents, counting North and South America as two, since Antarctica is represented as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:14 PM

Steve/Norton, I haven't forgotten about your daughter being over there and keep her in my thoughts and thanks givings. May all of your friends and family be kept safe. And, may all marchers/marches stay peaceful and safe.

JTT, I got chills up my spine reading your report from Ireland. Wow, most extraordinary. Gives me hope, not only for the anti-war global movement, but also for Ireland.

Catarina, good for you and the others in Lisbon. Thanks for letting us know!

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Melani
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM

I will be in San Francisco on the 16th. This is what pushed me over the edge.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/11/ED173500.DTL


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:33 PM

10:30 AM, February 15, Northern Light Church, Juneau, Alaska.

To bring music into this- at the suggestion of a friend- I'm carrying a sign, decorated with musical notes, that reads:

"A Time for Peace
I swear it's
Not Too Late"

We're also carrying the American flag- and I'll bet anyone anywhere that this demonstration will NOT turn ugly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:45 PM

Be very very suspicious of anyone who comes across as a let's-show-em militant. Probably a plant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ed.
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:12 PM

Be very very suspicious of anyone who comes across as a let's-show-em militant. Probably a plant.

Oh, come on, McGrath. There are plenty of left wingers capable of violence. Whilst the vast majority of protesters will be marching on decent moral grounds, there's likely to be the odd extremist who wishes to hijack it for their own agenda.

To suggest that such people are all 'plants' indicates paranoia.

I'd still be interested to get views on my message 9 or 10 posts ago: will it make any difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:25 PM

I didn't say they were all plants. I said that it's a very reasonable suspicion. And of course there are always people in most crowd who get hyped up and respond to that kind of invitation. And even if they are sincere, they are still doing the same job as if they were plants.

Will it make any difference? This time maybe more than most. Normally marches are minority affairs, tryingto get get the message across to a public that is indifferent or hostile. This time most people are sympathetic to the marchers. There are two national newspapers supporting it - The Guardian and The Mirror. And outside Parliamnet, most of the Labour Party members are against the policy if the Government - not to mention the enormus numbers of people who have torn up their membership cards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:48 PM

I think that my one concession to the whole dam world is this

If you are to march for peace - let it be world wide and not this against America thing.

There are many things in the world that preclude peaceful resolution of the world's issues. So if Iraq brings the world together in the search for peace? Well then Bobert - I'll vote Green in the next election -

Steve

PS - Thank you Sister Kat - -


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 06:15 PM

And as an adjunct - it's against federal law to encourage a member of the Armed Services to disobey deployment orders - so be careful what and how you say it.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 07:19 PM

I don't understand this "against America thing". How can it be- in what way can it be- called 'Anti-America'?

As for whether it will make a difference: Definitely. Maybe it won't put a stop to the war plans, maybe it won't change the Bushwhackers' minds one iota, maybe tempers will flare and people will come down hard on one side of the issue or the other but it's kind of like one's vote. One vote doesn't usually make a difference to the outcome- but it does make a difference to the voter who put him/herself on record as to what developments are desired.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 07:31 PM

On the evening news here (western Canada city of Calgary) listeners are asked a poll question. Yesterday's question was "Who is the greatest threat to world peace?" The results are USA 49%, North Korea 26% and Iraq 25%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 07:34 PM

If it didn't make any difference, why did women ever get the right to vote, why did the civil rights movement brings about major changes, why did we finally get out of Vietnam? Of course marching makes a difference. It is direct action, unfiltered by the biased media; in the face of the government, etc.

My brother, Steve, you're welcome. Sage is burnt every night.

Ebbie, I love the idea of your musical sign!

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 07:43 PM

Yo, Steve, my friend. The anti-war movement is *pro*American. If Tom Jefferson were alive today, he'd be in New York on Saturday.

And, McGrath, I agree with you that there will most definately be "plants" in the demonstration and If there is any destruction of property, I'd bet that they had someting to do with instigating it.
But my gut feeling is that there will be many arrests for *civil disobedience*! I have been following the Justice Department's unusual moves this week to prevent the march and I think that amny will march anyway. I'd like to see 10,000 arrests and had planned to be one of them if I could have gotten up there. Actually, I would love to see all half a million get arrested! The ban is bull****!

If it were a bunch of Young Republicans who were demonstrating for the war, they would have gotten the permit in a heartbeat. NY and the Bush folks are doing everything they can think of to scare folks away from this protest. Why? They don't want the rest of America to see *what democracy looks like!*

I'll be looking forward to reading everyone's reports Saturday night. Don't forget to take a camera!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 07:53 PM

It is an anti-war and anti-imperial militarism movement internationally. It is anti-American only in the sense that the US is the biggest imperialist military beating up on the little guys, is all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 07:53 PM

Lets get his back to music - The Tune ? The Rochester Fusilier, also known as Waltzing Matilda.

" A company of Protesters,
was marching down through London Town,
Saying "No War in that far Country!
And they sang as the marched through the peacfull streets of London town,
Who'l join the protest with Saddam and me.

Who'l Join the Protest,
Who'l join the Protest,
Who'l join the Protest,
With Saddam and me,
And they sang as they marched through the peacfull streets of London Town,
Who'l join the protest with Saddam and me.

Not I, said the Kurd,
Coughing from the poison gas,
You'll not make a friend of Saddam out of me,
My friends and my fammily, murdered by Saddams men,
I'll no support Saddam in my country once free!

Not I, said the Marsh Arab,
a refugee from genocide,
We rose more than once, to set Basra free,
My friends and my fammily, murdered by Saddams men,
I'll no support Saddam in my country once free!

Not I said the conscipt,
forced into the old front line,
My relations are hostages, in case I flee,
My friends and my fammily, murdered by Saddams men,
I'll no support Saddam in my country once free!

Not I, said the T A Man,
called up from Cardiff town,
I leave my wife in a free country,
And Your support of Hussain makes war so very likely,
Your no friends of peace in a far country.

Not I, said the office clerk,
in a lowly paid and thankless job,
in a building in a far country,
Saddams men control our thoughts, and food and lives,
Your no friends of peace in a far country."

Like most of the population of Brittain I will not be marching.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 08:39 PM

But unlike most of the population of Britain and our neighbours in Europe you think Blair's right, Gareth.

We're all making our choices in the dark anyay. You think this war, though terrible is going to do more good than harm. I think it'll do more harm than good. That's got nothing to do with liking Saddam.

I didn't like Stalin either. There were people who wanted a war 50 years ago to get rid of him and liberate the people under him. But I don't think it would have been a good idea. In fact I think it would have been an even worse idea than this one you think is a good idea now.

"With Saddam and me" Is that any different from shouting "Redlovers" and "Go Hom eto Moscow" at people who didn't think war with the USSR was inevitabvle or justifiable?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:29 PM

I am curious - Where were the protesters when the Twin Towers were hit? Where were they when the USS Cole was hit? Where were they when the Marines in Beirut were murdered? And many of the other acts committed against the US?

We are the big guys beating up on the little guys? I'm glad France and the rest of Europe remember how many thousands of us (US) died to gain their freedom from the Nazis. Wasn't Hitler another of the ones that the British tried to appease with more time for weapons inspections? And the Euro community tried to ignore? And let's see - how many did that criminal murder? And it was just a poor little country.

In my opinion we have shown an incredible amount of restraint. We've asked time and again that Iraq cooperate with the process. And they have not. What they have done is known as passive-agressive behavior. They've lied, been deceitful, and coopted good people into believing they are just this poor little country that needs someone to stand up for them. The same country that rocketed the Israelis indiscriminantly (read civilians and innocent children being killed), gassed their own people causing a mass murder by ethnicity, terrorized their own people, are the epitomy of racist, sexist, bigoted, insular killers of anything or anyone who does not follow the party line.

I feel sorry for the folks who have volunteered to be human sheilds. Their good intentions are just that. Good intentions. Saddam Hussein will let them be killed for his own advancement. That's sad. Marching for Peace is a good thing. But how about a march to hold everyone accountable. Hussein needs to be removed. And all of his inner circle with him. The other Muslim country's leaders aren't being supportive because in order for them to accept his removal means they would have to accept something other than a dictatorship in its place. And that means they would have to stop plundering their people and ending their own genocidal actions. Not a happy bunch of campers there for sure.

And lastly - I strenuously object to the blaming of President Bush for the state of affairs in this world. It goes much further back than anyone on this board has memory of. It has fallen to this time and place to begin to seriously resolve the problems of the Middle East. I don't know if war is the answer - but I'm damned tired of what the peace process has netted this country. Jimmy Carter may have been the last of those who really worked for peace. Iraq either complys immediately or faces the consequences.

I realize this is not likely to change anyone's opinion. But I've listened about all I can stand. I've watched this country kneel before the world and grant the wishes of others. And for no gain that I know of. I'm proud to have been a part of the United States military. I'm proud of my service to country - during and after the war to the present. I'm not a war monger. I am simply an individual with opinions and a belief system.

Semper Fi
Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: leprechaun
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:51 PM

Alright, Norton!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:08 PM

Gareth & Steve:

If you two want to start a "I love war" or "I love Bush" thread, I won't post on it!

So why would either of you feel compelled to *barge* into a thread that does not apparently *concern* either of you.

This is not a Peace v. War thread. It's a peace thread!

There are no *shortages* of war threads. Go play there!

This is a members only thread!

If you don't have anything to add to the *spirit* of the thread then both of you are *trolling*.

Get out!

And believe me, when you start your " I love war" thread you won't find my hillbilly butt pissing on your picnic...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:26 PM

Bobert

How about you bite me? And anytime you think you can get me out - rock on - but I don't think so.

Wasn't a damn thing in that post about loving war. You really ought to learn to read. Your ignorance really is showing. And what was that you said about being a Christian? Yep that's a real Christian attitude there - glad you aren't in any position to teach any of my kids.

Steve - I am a member -


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:43 PM

Steve:

You wouldn't know Jesus if he knocked on your door...

You think Jesus ever got "damned tired" of the peace process?

He died for the "peace process".

And, yeah, He got purdy danged pissed at times in the fight to push hate mongers and war mongers aside.

And I am too.

Like I said, this is not a thread that concerns you.

This ain't about how many years that you have been a "member". This thread is more about how long you've been standing up for the ideals that mankind can get beyond killing people with whom they don't agree.

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:06 AM

Bobert - you addressed me directly, you did not quote what I said, you said "members only", and whether I am standing up for ideals you agree with or not isn't the meat of this debate. You don't like it ignore it.

As far as my beliefs you don't know squat. I think you are more of a hypocrite when you tell someone the things you just did. And as far as making your puny little threatening noises - well - that's all it is - noises - quiet ones at that.

I'm no troll - I'm a human being with a brain, a body, a heart, and a sense of a spirit - all four parts necessary to be a real human being. So you can apologize or not - but you are either drunk or just being a dick.

Sorry you took what I posted in such a negative way. You are normally fairly rational and thoughtful - maybe this is the real you finally coming out.

Hey maybe you ought to run for president! You got the right attitude - if you want I could send you to a place where there are lots of war mongers as you call them. Name calling is good eh? Maybe they would be impressed by your understanding -

It's just the internet and open to all - at least I am not posting as GUEST and vilifying those with a different opinion. You just made it personal - so whenever you want the peace process to start with you and I you let me know - K?

Till then - get used to me in your postings -


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,maureen cummuskey
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:17 AM

i, and many of my friends, are marching in canberra, australia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Melani
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:46 AM

Okay, now that after much trial and error I have figured out how to make the link turn blue and work, I am going to repost it for your convenience. I am completely freaked out by this and want as many people as possible to see it. click here

link fixed
el joeclone


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Melani
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:48 AM

I give up. Just go there and read it. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:53 AM

Bobert and Steve, as one who loves and respects you both, as one whom you have called "sister," I urge you both to take some time to back away from this, esp. the personal stuff.

FWIW, I am not marching to support Iraq or Saddam. I am marching because I feel, in my heart, that we need to give peace a chance, to the nth degree and because I do feel that Bush, even though the conflicts in the region started long ago, has made the worst of it possible and I shall be vocal in my opposition to his fumbling it. Of course that is just my opinion.

luvya and thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 01:11 AM

I said Bush "has made the worst of it possible" and it doesn't read the way I meant. What I meant was that, imo, he has handled the entire situation in the worst possible way.

Melani, I read it and I share your concerns! Thanks.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 01:47 AM

"Give peace a chance." Saddam has had twelve years to comply ...oh heck. What's the use. No point in pointing out the obvious. March away I say.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 02:26 AM

Gentlemen, stop getting personal with each other. Stick to the issues.

Gabriel and I will be out there at the UN.

We will be there because the guy in the White House seems to believe that oil is more important that blood and, if the blood shed is not his own, then it does not matter, no matter how many nice words he spreads over the field.

We will be there because there are times that it is necessary to stand up and say "There is no hurry to go to war." A bullet, once fired cannot be recalled.

We will be there because our bellicose leaders seem to believe that the louder they shout, the more the world will believe them and that the world will allow them to stampede it into a frenzy.

We will be there as a statement that a tantrum should be recognized as a tantrum. "I want it" is not enough reason to act.

We will be there because it has to be made clear that this is not being done in our names.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:20 AM

Inevitably we drift treads here all the time, and that includes me. and there aren't clear divisions. I think it's fair enough thta a topic should widen out to cover new aspects sometimes, rather tnan a fresh thread being started. But when there is already an active thread about one particular aspect of a live issue, it seems to me that it is better to put those posts in that thread, because it makes for clearer arguments and means they contribute to that more effectively.

We've got a thread here about whether there will be a war, and a thread about whether there should be a war, and they are both still fairly active. I think that is really where the arguments about the rights and wrongs of this planned war really belong, rather than in a thread about who is going on a demonstration tomorrow. And that in itself is an iteresting thing, over above the issues involved, because of the way it's happening on the same day in all our countries, and just about all the others as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:55 AM

The thread asked a question Bobert - I answered it.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Catarina
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:02 AM

Hey guys: No one is supporting Sadam in this thread. Just remember:
1. It's easy to start a war but it's very difficult to put an end to it;
2. The ones who get killed in a war are NOT the ones who started it;
3. There is no such thing as a "preventive war". What's a war meant to prevent, anyway?
4. Do you a know a french poem called "Le Déserteur"? Do read it. It goes like this:

Monsieur le président, je vous fais une lettre
Que vous lirez, peut-être,
Si vous avez le temps.
Je viens de recevoir mes papiers militaires,
Pour partir à la guerre
Avant mercredi soir.

Monsieur le président, je ne veux pas la faire,
Je ne suis pas sur terre
Pour tuer les pauvres gents.
C'est pas pour vous facher, il faut que je vous dise,
Ma décision est prise,
Je m'en vais déserter.

Depuis que je suis né, j'ai vu mourir mon père,
J'ai vu partir mes frères
Et pleurer ses enfants.
Ma mère a tant souffert, qu'elle est dedans sa tombe,
Et se moque des bombes
Et se moque des vers.

Quand j'étais prisonier, on m'a volé ma femme,
On m'a volé mon âme
Et tout mon cher passé.
Demain, de bonmatin, je fermerais ma porte
Au nez de anées mortes.
J'irais sur le chemins.

Je mendierais ma vie sur les routes de France,
De Bretagne en Provence,
Et je dirais au gents:
Refusez d'óbeir, refusez de la faire,
N'allez pas à la guerre!
Refusez de partir.

S'il faut donner son sang, allez, donnez le votre,
Vous êtes un bon apôtre,
Monsieur lé président.
Si vous me poursuivez, prévenz vos gendarmmes
Que je n'aurai pas d'armes
Et qu'ils pouront tirer.

My french spelling may not be perfect, mind you! I believe the poem is by Jacques Prévert but I'm not sure about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:23 AM

Actually, Bobert has a point about people who support the war coming into threads and pissing on the parade.

He also has a point about people who support the war, for whatever reasons, being incapable of appreciating what we hope will be 10 million people, around the globe, personally coming out and taking a stand against US/British military aggression, and using militarism as the solution to every problem between nations.

At some point, everyone needs to recognize that there isn't a compromise position, a "let's agree to disagree" about killing people, about unjust wars, and supporting militarism. Bobert is the only one honest enough to admit that, and I find it refreshing.

Bobert, dude, sorry you can't find your way into the millions of us in body tomorrow, but we'll at least know you are there in spirit.

And Norton1, I do hope your family is safe. I hope my family and friends already in the Gulf, or on their way, will be safe. And I hope the anti-war activists acting as human shields for the Iraqis will be safe. And I hope the Iraqis will be safe from our children, too. I pray that the pressure of these growing protests--and they are now growing by the hundreds of thousands with each organized protest--in conjunction with the position of many of the world's governments, and the UN, can either successfully avert this war through our opposition to this US administration, or manage to isolate this administration to the point where the American people will throw the bums out on their ears in November 2004 so we can get down to the work of TRULY healing our nation from the traumas caused by 9/11. Like throwing out the US Patriot Act as unconstitutional, and creating some safeguards to our civil liberties that will not allow despots like Bush/Cheney to get away with gutting our constitution in the interest of war in perpetuity, no matter who our enemies are, or how many times they strike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:01 AM

No, I don't support Saddam Hussein. But I don't think bombing the Iraqi people is anything to do with Saddam. I mean, if the American government was going to rid the world of evil, why doesn't it go and bomb the Thai child abuse centres, for instance? Oh, wait, Thailand doesn't have oil.

Not that bombing *anyone* is going to add to the store of good in this world.

There are times when our friends need to tell us we're wrong; the American government should look at the worldwide protests in this light.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ringer
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:40 AM

Monsieur le président, je vous fais une lettre

I remember something slightly different (and my French is no better than yours, Catarina, I regret). I remember something like

Messieurs, comme on a grande, je vous...

That is, "Gentlemen, so-called 'great' gentlemen, I have written you a letter...", but I've never seen it in print. I think I heard Leon Rosselson sing it in a Peterborough folk-club about 40 years ago. (It's the singer's ID which is doubtful, not the where or when.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: TIA
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:45 AM

Whole family will be on the courthouse steps, Lancaster PA (in the snow?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: HuwG
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:58 AM

I am risking a lot posting to a thread like this. However, it is getting very painful sitting on this fence all the time.

In the past, I have not had too much time for some (not all; I was rather a fan of Michael Foot) peace campaigners; in the British context, I remember some of the voices sneering in 1991 that nobody would support Kuwait if its main export was cabbages, were that same ones who castigated Maggie for spilling so much British and Argentinian blood over some worthless islands full of retarded sheep-farmers. In much the same fashion, there were those who first wailed that NATO was doing nothing about the genocide in Bosnia, and then pilloried NATO for aggression when the bombers and troops went in.

And yes, I have to agree with some peoples' views. Saddam Hussein is a nasty piece of work. However, we knew that some twenty-plus years ago, when he took power, but did nothing; we knew it shortly after that, when he attacked Iran, but supported him, at least as the lesser of two perceived evils; we knew it twelve years ago, when he invaded Kuwait, but left him in power and free to stamp on his internal opponents (though to be fair, much of the Western Allied coalition had to adopt the Arab coalition's goals for the Gulf War).

What has changed since then ?

I do not for a second believe any of the "briefings" or so-called intelligence by British government figures, that Saddam poses any fresh threat, to the West, to Israel or to his Arab neighbours. Many of the demands on the Iraqi government for weapons inspection etc. are framed in terms which boil down to, "When did you stop beating your wife ?"; there is no answer which will not provoke fresh demands or threats.

Threatening Iraq because there has been an unsolicited message from Osama bin Laden urging him to crush US imperialism (while at the same time calling him a godless betrayer of Islam), is like prosecuting me for indecency because my PC receives spam advertisments for Viagra.

So; there has been no major increase in the threat posed by Iraq, or in its internal policies in the last decade, and therefore no obvious causus belli. The conclusion must be that the changes which make war more probable have occurred in Washington and Whitehall (and much of British policy has been to follow where the US leads for many years, regardless of which party has been in power). I wouldn't like to ascribe any obvious motive to George W. or to Tony, but neither do I credit those motives which they have stated in public.

So; I cannot support Tony and his cabinet on this one (with one reservation however; if shooting starts, and British forces personnel are involved, I won't ever advocate any course of action which may endanger them, or criticise their conduct once they have become involved as a result of the government's policy).


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: TIA
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:01 AM

Damn the risks, and welcome down from the fence - very well spoken HuwG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM

A while back, up above, the question was asked, "Why are you marching?" The answer is that, if we sit at home, we will be heard as accepting whatever Bush and his cronies mandate. To march or not to march is to vote in the public discourse.

Several times, during voter registration drives, I have gotten into discussions of "why register?" The answer, of course, is "to be heard." The reasons are the same here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:24 AM

There has been talk on the media of the "Arab Street." Even though many of these demonstrations are trumped up, they still represent someone's opinion and the demonstrators are heard.

Demonstrations are part of the public discourse of government. If you do not speak you will not be heard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:28 PM

I wrote this for the march... if you know the tune, feel free. I plan on printing pages of it to sing during the vigil part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,alinact
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:32 PM

The first pitch has been thrown; over to you guys.

Allan

Melbourne rallies to the call for peace
February 15 2003
By Andra Jackson




Picture: AAP
Thousands march in Melbourne during yesterday's rally.



More than 100,000 people - believed to be Melbourne's largest peace rally - marched through the city yesterday to protest against a war on Iraq.

Police spokeswoman Senior Constable Julie-Anne Newman said the demonstration was "so big" that it was difficult to estimate the size of the crowd.

But she said it was "in excess of 100,000".


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 04:27 PM

"Le Deserteur" - it's by Boris Vian. Great song. And here is a link to the text in a post I did the other day.

And there's a link in that post to a good translation and information about the song, which was banned in France when they were having their colonial war in Indo-China.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 04:55 PM

I heard on the news this morning that there will be counter-demonstrations here and there whose theme is to be "Support our Troops." To these folks, I would say that the best support I could offer our troops is to do everything in my power to stop this illegal war.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:10 PM

I agree Don. The other thing that gets a bit tiresome, is this idea that there is only one way to support the military, which is to be gung ho for the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM

Don,
That was the huge mistake we made with the Viet Nam "War". We protested against the soldiers who fought the war. I lost several good friends to death, mental illness and despair in Viet Nam. During "Desert Storm" most of us had the good sense to support our troops while attacking the decision to use them. I respect the right of any citizen to choose to fight for his country. In fact I applaud their decision to defend me and mine. I protest the government's decision to fight a war I consider premature and possibly even unnecessary. I could go ad infinitum but will abstain...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:11 PM

Conrad/#1 Peasant, as someone who has, on balance, welcomed your imput here, I've got to say I'm with Larry/InOBU one hundred per cent on this. At least you're worth arguing with, which is more than can be said for one or two other posters in this thread.

Much is made of Saddam gassing "his own people," less of the fact that he gassed Iranians before that. (The UK and US gave him the means to produce his gas, with the intention that he use it on the Iranians. Rumsfeld of course was right there in Baghdad shaking Saddam's hand while some of the Iraq-Iran atrocities were under way.) Nothing at all is said these days about the USA's use of nepalm, or the fact that the British were the first to gas Iraqis, way back in the 1920s. Nor that America's allies Pakistan and India boast WMDs and have tested them in defiance of international treaty.

And there has been little mention of the response by Zanu PF secretary Dydimus Mutasa to the fact that nearly seven million Zimbabweans face starvation: "We would be better off with only six million people who support the liberation struggle. We don't want all these extra people." Such remarks would be treated with alarm if the "never again" response to the holocaust had meant anything. But then as Hitler said in 1931, about Turkey's genocide in WW1: "Who now remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?" So the west huffs and puffs about Iraq, but when it comes to Zimbabwe, which has neither oil nor diamonds, we will do a Rwanda and look the other way.

It would be futile suggesting to Norton1 that we are entitled to expect more from civilised democracies than from a handful of criminal lunatics. After all, in our millions we failed to march in protest against 9-11, thinking it might not be a very smart response. So poor old N1 probably thinks we welcomed it with open arms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:47 PM

Fionn - I can only go by what I see - and in all of the instances I noted above of Americans being killed I did not see a public outcry. With the notable exception of the Twin Towers.

As far as "poor old N1" goes I am neither poor nor old. And your patriarchal sarcasm is not lost on me. Pat me on the head if you want - but I and millions of others have opinions and concerns that need to be heard and addressed also.

I have no beef with those who are demonstrating, going as shields, or anything else that folks do when a crisis is coming. I'm not all excited about this scrap with the middle East. I just view the solution a bit different from you. Doesn't make me bad or good - just makes me who I am. And those who know me historically know that I do not advocate war. It has been a tremendous internal struggle with me as I opposed this action for the longest time. And as I read, watched, and learned I came to believe that it, the war, was more than likely warranted.

Too bad you all don't want to allow for discourse here on that. Kind of odd as on my other forum I am thought of as a Liberal. And I take my lumps there also - not a large as it is the internet and most don't have a clue anyway. And I am sure many here are as passionate as can be. Some I believe are simply there to get laid, push their own agenda, and denigrate those who have different views.

I wasn't pissing on anyones thread. After I had read the entire thread I made a statement that I believe to be true. And it had concerns for both sides. But some took it as other than it was. Too bad - as I've spent my life opposing war. Until now. So take it for what it is. I've always said that I am not a peace at any price person and there have been some urinating contests around that at times. So I'll abstain from babbling now so you folks can get back to congratulating yourselves on whatever it is that you are doing.

No sweat Kat - Bob needed a shot and so did I probably - we'll get over it - no harm in words.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM

Well, in Vietnam times maybe it was different over here, but generally GIs were seen as victims of the war, prisoners of the system. "Stop the War - Send the soldiers home" was the feeling. Now the politicians and the generals, that was a different story.

As for tomorrow - the Independent newspaper, which has been rather on the fence about all this, came out today with a great big halfpage map in colour, showing the route and where all the loos are. There's never been that kind of treatment for any march I've ever been in before.

Anyway - good luck everyone, I'm turning in now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:56 PM

February 15, 2003, Reuters:
In the Australian city of Melbourne, 100,000 people demonstrated in a peace movement expected to spread to around 600 towns and cities around the world stretching from the far south to Iceland. (Hurrah!)

Norton1, how about starting a thread specifically for your viewpoint? I'm serious. Those of us on the 'other' side may have difficulty remaining silent or respectful but yours is a valid viewpoint- I, for one, would like to have the process discussed as to how one gets to that point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Susan A-R
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:42 PM

I'll be at the rally in Montpelier VT tomorrow afternoon. I'm hoping that the mercury cracks 0, but it's not likely.   Boy Doug R, I wish I could walk two miles here these days. Usually it's been 0 or below, and by the time I make the 1/2 mile walk to work my nose is falling off.

As for why I am marching, well, my buddy Joel who I've known since we used to go fishing when we were five, has been called up, and to me it seems to be mainly about oil, not weapons. If we were serious about weapons, we wouldn't still be sellin' them to the highest bidders all around the world. When will we ever learn?

I was very upset about the twin towers, and am upset when Americans are killed. I just am not entirely sure I value american lives over the lives of other folks in other places, particularly when those lives are taken for fruit, oil, cheap labor or the profit of some weapons manufacturer. So, I'll be out there in my silk long underwear, parka, hat, scarf, mittens, wooly socks, sorrel boots, heavy jeans . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:40 PM

Susan, A-R:

If ya got a sign, poke holes in the upper corners and string it around your neck. That frees up your hands. Take some water, I know you don't thin k you'll need it but you will, no matter hao cold it is. Take a camera.

Two pairs of socks is 4 times better than one. Hmmmm?

Have fun. Make lots of noise for peace. This is gonna be fun!!!!

uI can't get to NY because of bad snow hitting my area (Blue Ridge Mts.) tomorrow and I've got to be home keeping systems working. Generators, etc.

But you tear it up and I'll be tuned to Pacifica radio all day and will be there in spirit....

Good on you and the illions of others who will take to the streetsaround the world tomorrow.

God Bless 'em all.... for they are carrying His message...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: thosp
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:46 PM

i'll be at the demonstration tomorrow in nyc --- i don't
expect to be too cold -- with all that body heat around

peace (Y) thosp


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:52 AM

Nice to see the Iraqi Parliament applauding the "Peace Marches" - ( Source this mornings 15/02/03 Gaurdian)

I've said it before and I'll say it again - These protests encourage Saddam to continue defiance of the UN and make the prospect of war, and the associated mayhem more likely. - Or put it this way, it encourages the attitudes and actions and inactions on the part of Saddam that will give President Shrub his justification.

WAR IS EVIL - But sometimes it is the lesser of two evils.

BTW the European Union is trying to do something about Mugabe in Zimbawe - Less of course the usual European suspect.

An unrepentent Gareth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM

The usual suspect, France wants to break the travel ban on Mugabe and invite him to Paris.
Belgium gave him the red carpet treatment last year, and allowed his henchman to assault an English protester.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:51 AM

Heading off into Brussels city center in about an hour's time. Thankd to Mudcat for enabling me to find out that there is a demo here at all. I would have thought that the Government, having gone out on a limb, would want maximum support in the streets and made sure that the demo was well-publicised.

The Mayor of Brussels made the extraordinary allegation that this is a high-risk demo, which is likely to scare off moderates and give hotheads a licence to think that the police are likely to turn violent anyway so there's no point being well-behaved. Looks like The Chimp isn't the only primate involved in this sorry episode.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 08:24 AM

A long report on the gathering crowds in London on the BBC Radio 4 news just now, crowds being split and diverted as there are far more than anticipated.
A figure of 150,000 was mentioned, but difficult to assess until all are gathered together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Peg
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 11:55 AM

A dear old friend of mine from college wrote this and sent it around to friends:

For those of you who don't know by now, the big anti-war rally in NYC is going to be at First Avenue and as close to 49th Street as you can get on Saturday February 15, noon.

These have been horribly oppressive times and I am sure many of you have felt the same sense of powerlessness I have felt in the face of this tidal wave. It is incredibly easy to get overwhelmed by that despair.

I do not think any of us are so naïve as to think that this protest will stop our Fuhrer from going to war. The decision was made a long time ago and we have no say.

But I am still going to the rally.

I am going to remind myself that I am not alone in this.

I am going because there is indeed an axis of evil that needs to be fought- Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft, (what, an axis can't be
more than three just because there were only three Axis countries in
WWII and Bush can't count any higher?)

I am going because the Bushyboys need to know that they do not speak for the majority of Americans who did not elect them in the first place. The rest of the world needs to know this, too.

I am going because my friends and relatives have children who deserve
the chance to grow up.

I am going because the Iraqis and Iranians and Koreans and Chinese and
Sudanese and Israelis and Europeans and Palestinians, and so on, also
have children who deserve the chance to grow up.

I am going because I am so infuriated by the fear mongering these
bastards use to hold us hostage and scare us into acceptance.

I am going to protest the secret deportations and the detentions in the concentration camp at Guantanamo.

I am going to the rally to let Bush know I haven't forgotten about the tanked economy, the homeless, the unemployed, the uninsured, the tax cuts for the rich, the stacking of the courts with right-wing religious fanatics, the gutting of abortion rights and the destruction of the environment.

I am going to the rally to speak out against my civil rights being
whittled away.

I am going to speak up for the Iraqis who will die as the 8,000 bombs
Bush wants to unleash in the first two days of the war rain down upon
them.

I am going to the rally because Dubya needs to know that the only way to compensate for having a tiny penis is either to be really good with your tongue or have surgery, not obliterate another country.

I hope that you will be there on Saturday as well. To those of you
across the country and the world, I hope you will be attending the
rallies near you. It is important. It is going to be big.

All my love, and hopes for peace,
Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM

Right on, Rick. Well said, my friend. I was hopoing that htis snow storm wouldn't set in and held out until Thursday before reluctantly decided I needed to be here on the Blue Ridge in case the power goes out and have to play Pioneer.

But I'm with you in spirit. I have Pacifca radio on as I write this and they are providing about 20 minutes of live coverage from Amy Goodman every hour. Nothing on Boss Hog's cable TV. Nothing.

The larges world demonstartopn against war in the history of mankind and Boss Hog wants to show Andy Griffith reruns and drum beaters who have 24 hour access to the media. Normal.

Peace, Rick, and others and good on you.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: leprechaun
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM

Bobert - Are you suggesting it's a bad thing to repress other people's opinions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: momnopp
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

Thank you, Peg, for sharing your friend, Rick's, words with us. I hope you have also shared the link to this thread with him.

Peace be with you all,

JudyO


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:12 PM

Seattle, Washington, Saturday, February 15, 2003, circa 1:00 p.m.:—

The local ABC, NBC, and CBS affiliates have nothing on at all (golf tournament, local show with beauty tips, etc.), Fox Network is saying "Why aren't all these misguided demonstrators protesting Saddam Hussein?" MSNBC is giving a demonstration of how to duct-tape your house, CNN Headlines is giving financial news, CNN is interviewing some mayor on his preparations for a terrorist attack. He's complaining that Bush has given him the responsibility, but not the funds, and National Guard call-ups have gutted his police and fire departments of personnel. Seattle's police chief said that same thing in an interview yesterday.

The only news channel locally carrying anything at all is the North West Cable News network (made up of TV news departments in major Pacific Northwest cities like Seattle, Portland, and Spokane). Demonstration in these cities are now well under way. No figures yet, but several tower-cams looking down on the crowd gathering at Seattle Center show thousands of people around the Seattle Center International Fountain (earlier report plus map of march route in the Seattle Times). 48 degress F., wind calm, raining. But the rain is not deterring the crowd. One report says that a group of "anarchists," (avowedly not peace marchers, possibly the same bunch from eastern Oregon who caused all the trouble in Seattle during the WTO demonstration) have said they are planning to do their thing again, so we'll have to wait and see what happens. But so far, so good.

Other reports I have heard on NPR say that the rallies and demonstrations all over the world are massive and their message is clear. After yesterday's defeat in the UN and today's worldwide peace demonstrations, I don't see how the Bush Administration can help but get the message. But, of course. . . .

Maybe Bush had better get some duct tape to hold his administration together.

Regime change in 2004!

"I have promised to keep
And miles to go before I sleep . . ."

so I'll be back when I can with more up-to-date information. Maybe tomorrow.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:58 PM

Well, leprechaun, the way it looks is that the drum beaters are geeting about 99% of the media time and the anti-war folks about 1%. Now, I don't believe in polls but the anti-war folks represent around 40% of Americans, depending on which poll one believes. Now in a truely democratic nation,, one would think that there would be a little more coverage that what corporate media is willing to assign to those of us who are not pounding the war drums.

This has nothing to do woith me not wanting to hear the drum beaters but for the last several months, that is about all you hear.

Just asking for fainess and not manipulation of information. Tom Jefferson warned us that democracy works best when its participants are informed.

Where am I possibly asking too much?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:05 PM

CNN carried several hours of the peace demonstrations. From Australia to the UK and the United States. They reported millions of people. Seems like this was a very good thing. Nothing would make my day more than to see the world at peace and criminals in front of a world court.

If the Iraq issue facilitates this so much the better. So if you marched for peace today - good for you. If you marched because it is the in thing to do - good you supported the process. If you marched to be anti-American - (I'll be polite) *&^%$%@*&%$@(*&^*!%@ translate whatever way is the worst in your language.

My last on this - see you all -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM

Hey Bobert: if every marcher would ante up a dollar, there would be more than enough money to BUY time on all the networks, Cable News shows, and radio stations.

Don: it sounds to me the Fox News Network got it right! Why aren't those folks marching against Saddam and the oppression of his people?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:31 PM

Just back from London. Even the police estimated it as three-quarters of a million, and the organisers estimated 2 million. I don't know how you work out figures when it's this big.

It wasn't a march in a way, more just a huge mass of people that just came pouring on and on, splitting up and taking short cuts all over the place, and filling the whole street. Lots and lots of drum beaters in samba bands with dancers and all.

No hassles at all. Police very colourful in the yellow smocks they wear over their uniforms on occasions like this - and the ones who had to stand still in places like the entrance to Downing Street looked very cold. But no hostility either way - well, you knew that, with 84% of people against any war without UN approval (latest poll), you could assume most of them would have been on our side.

Mostly individual banners and posters rather than organisations, though there were plenty of them. Including a large one saying "Sex Workers of the World", which made a change from "Surrey Against the War", and so forth. Lots of nice nostalgic slogans like "Make Love Not War", and a fair number of "Make Tea not War".

It was getting bloody so I drifted off after the speeches were finished - you couldn't really hear them to understand, largely because there was a helicopter hovering directly over the speakers. But as I left I realised the street was still full of people coming in, and that continued as I walked back along side for best part of a mile.

Came home and switched on the telly - biggest protest match in this country ever, by a long way. But dwarfed by some of the others, notably the ones in Spain and Italy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:37 PM

I just got home from Columbus where the crowd was pretty small. They said a news team had been there earlier. We have a Winter Storm Advisory in effect as well as 8 inches of fresh snow, but the roads are fair...sorta'. They were expecting a lot more but the weather I think played a part. Then again, this is a big cowtown so....... Anyway, I'm warmed up again and glad I went. they have folks who are staying til midnight.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM

We were marching against Saddam, Doug, and lots of the posters specifically mentioned him.

And a fair number of American flag to be seen - being carried by Americans. It's your Government people hate, Norton, not your people or your country. Every poster knocking Bush was matched by one knocking Blair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:40 PM

Why did I anticipate you'd say something like that, Doug? You're getting downright predictable.

War is not the only way to deal with the likes of Saddam Hussein, and a lot of people are trying to pont that out to Bush. But he's obviously a bit slow on the up-take. Like I mentioned somewhere else, to an incompetent carpenter who only knows how to use a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:55 PM

DoughR
Sadam Husain is not the one who is trying to pass a law, the Patriot Act 2 which for the first time, will strip citizenship from native born Americans, so that they can be tried by military tribunals or sent to countries like Egypt to be tortured. As a loyal American, and a Concervative, why is your voice not the loudest to stop this march to remove from us all that it means to be American, where is Leprichaun's voice in defense of the Constitution he swore to uphold. Yes many of us, I for one marched to bring attention to Sadam when he was oppressing the Kurds and still an ally of the US. WHere are you DougR, there is plenty of room on line here to defend the US from the real danger.
Cheers
A fellow American
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:56 PM

I'm happy to report that this afternoon's peace rally in traditionally conservative, sleepy little Barrie Ontario was a great success! About 300 people aged 3-83 turned out in spite of the bitter cold, very little publicity and only two day's notice.

The organizers, members of The Humanist Movement, read a declaration outlining the humanitarian reasons for refusing to make war on Iraq and decrying the recent (unprecedented?) $2 billion spent by the Can gov't on beefing up the military in preparation for this war. That inspired a lot of cheering and applause! Then they led the march through the frosty downtown streets.

In spite of the traffic disruption we caused (the organizers had been refused a permit to march from City Hall for reasons "unheard of before") reaction from both bystanders and passing motorists was nothing but encouraging and supportive. And the local media did show up after all.

A group of 4 high-school girls, calling themselves "The Radical Cheerleaders", led the chanting through a megaphone .... "Tell Bush we KNOW - this war is about OIL - this war is about CONTROL - this war has got to GO!" It was hopeful indeed to see teenagers supporting the cause of peace - and they made it lots of fun, too. All the more power to them!

Thank you so much to Mudcat for the information about this march in my hometown! Looking forward to reading everyone else's stories - hope the success of this MOST peaceful rally in Barrie was enjoyed by ALL people who marched for peace today worldwide. And now if my feet and fingers would just thaw out .......

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:48 PM

About 7500 in Minneapolis. But the really big story is, the numbers worldwide add up to MILLIONS.

Including, I noted, Kurds living just across the border from Iraq, in Turkey. Yes, that is right. The ethnic group the Bush administration always trots out as the example of Saddam's evilness, many of whom are refugees from 12 years of war in their region being waged by the British and US forces (supposedly enforcing the no-fly zone) demonstrated against the war.

As ole Bobert would say, hmmmmm.

It was VERY cold in Minneapolis. Around 15F. We learn to march fast, and speak quickly at the rallies, and then we're outta there!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:50 PM

Hi DoughR The guest above, is me InOBU sorry the cat ate my cookie for awhile, all the best, Larry


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Subject: BS: Report from Western Colorado
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:42 PM

My sister and I went to the march here and it was terrific, esp. to connect with so many people from so many walks of life, ages, etc. I saw a gentleman in his WWII uniform and heard a speaker who was incarcerated as a conscientious objector during WWII; his ancestor started the Menonites in Switzerland or was it Sweden? Sorry I cannot remember.

There were over 20 rural communities represented with banners signed by thousands of people; those same banners had been carried in marches in Washington, D.C. and San Francisco. I signed one of them. Ridgeway, Telluride, Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Silt, New Castle, Delta, Montrose, Ouray, Norwood, Palisade, Clifton, Grand Junction...and more were represented. Over 400 people marched and drummed; sang and chanted; cried and cheered. We had a cop flash us the peace sign. In Telluride, at an earlier march, the local sheriff joined in.

We heard college students speak, grandmothers and grandfathers, mothers and fathers, veterans of wars and of peace movements, young children, there were babies and toddlers and there was even one organisation called Pets for Peace in which each marcher walked with their dog. One of those dogs had an adorable chest piece with the peace sign on it. The back piece of it said "Make snow not war!"

I took a few pictures and will add a link when I get them up. Thanks so much for the link which let me know this was going on here.

I got cold, hungry, and tired. From my waist down lost feeling because of the chill, BUT it was a GOOD day; my heart is aglow with hope and camaraderie.

Thanks in Peace,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:52 PM

This is thread drift - but I'm not surprised about those Kurds.

From what I've read, the Kurds in Iraq, who now control their own part of the country, not the Baghdad government (which they detest, with good reason), are getting ready to fight the Turks, if they come across the border.

They see them as invaders, who have been repressing Kurds in Turkey for generations, and definitely as no kind of liberating army.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:59 PM

What wonderful stories! Makes ol' Bobert wanta cry readin' 'em all.

Kat: You've come a long way, girl. From wondering what would happen if you put a peace bumper sticker on your car to getting out there in the cold and having at it! Now that really brings tears to my eyes. Right on. I love you!!!!

McGrath: I heard on one of the corporate news shows tonight that it was I million, which means two million... Good, real good.

Now as for New York. I heard Amy Goodman say that the police estimate was 500,000. So you can figure a cool 1 million! In DC last month the media referred to the number as "thousands". Well, yes. like 500 of those thousands. (Hey, Bobert, according to your Wes Ginny slide rule... that's like a half a million...)

Big day for democracy!!! Bad day for the Junior and the Autocrats...

Peace...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 08:17 PM

In isolated 30000-person Juneau, Alaska, the turnout was somewhere between 700 and 1,000 people. (The disparity of figures has to do with estimates. We do know that at one time there were 630 people there, with more coming by the minute. I expect tomorrow's paper will have firmer numbers.)

Lots of us brought our dogs, many of us brought children, and some there were folks well into their 80s. Our lieutenant governor from the previous administration was there and walked right along with us. Our current governor was not to be seen... (Not surprised- Bush apologist.) Lots of media, lots of cameras.

It was a good day; lots of cars beep-beeped their horns in response to some people's 'Honk for Peace' signs. There were only two vehicles who tried to harass us by driving back and forth repeatedly the length of the marching crowd and honking. One was a Corvette and the other was a pickup with a LARGE sign in the bed saying 'Want Peace on Earth? Bomb Iraq Back to the Stone Age'. I admired them for their great insight. Not.

We had several veterans who made their own signs and marched. Pretty sure the two youngish guys in the pickup were not vets.

There was a chill wind blowing but the sun was bright and the sky blue.

I've been reading the accounts of the demonstrations and peace marches- it seems impossible that the Bush administration can ignore us. Can 'Catters come up with a scenario that would allow the government to save face while backing off? I really want to start thinking in those terms.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:54 AM

Report from NYC event Feb 15th

London peace march


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:13 AM

I was stuck at work yesterday, and missed the one in Minneapolis, which sucks. And GUEST, 15f isn't cold. Wimp. :)

The headline on the CNN site this morning is interesting: "Antiwar rallies delight Iraq," featuring a photo of a burning, inverted US flag.   Wow, even more pro-war than FoxNews, who buried their "Iqaq Gloats" version of that story under three other war articles... Funny.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:14 AM

Iqaq=Iraq, obviously.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Marion
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:33 AM

Hi Ebbie - I do wonder how these turnout estimates are made. One newspaper website puts the Toronto demo at 10 000, while the Toronto Star says it was 80 000.

Anyone see any good picket signs?

Some of my favourites:

"War orphans make good terrorists"
"War is terrorism with a better budget"
"My cold toes need peace more than oil"

Least favourite:

"War is a sign of a mal(e)functioning [sic] government" - was the malebashing strictly necessary?

Most confusing:

"I'm an Iraqi spy" I don't get it.

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Bubba
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM

I saw a good picket sign on TV recently. It was a news segment about a country on the west coast of Africa. I forgot which one but the sign said "Help us Bush"

I hope all of the protestors will some day be holding a sign saying "Help us Saddam"

I can see it now. People pleading "Oh great and powerful Saddam, help us throw off this oppressive regime we are burdened with and restore our dignity and human rights that he has taken away"

Bubba


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: belfast
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:05 AM

Here in a small town on a small island off the coast of Europe thousands upon thousands of people marched. It was, to put it mildly, impressive. We had one great advantage: one of the speakers was Eamon McCann, one of the greatest public speakers I have ever heard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: TIA
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:22 AM

What a cross-section in Lancaster yesterday - men, women, kids, ages less than 1 to nearly 90. Plenty of signs opposing not just the Bush/Blair/Cheney/Rumsfeld war, but opposing ALL violence (yes DougR anit-Saddam signs!). Here's the best part - unofficial statistics on the cars streaming by: Many (if not most) honked and waved and gave the thumbs up or peace sign. Only THREE shouted obscenities, gave thumbs down, or middle finger (white males all HMMMMMMMM?) And that is in the most heavily Republican county in the entire USA.

We don't own any TV or radio stations, but us naive, misguided peaceniks are out there in numbers that the hawks just won't believe.

Thank you everyone who froze for peace yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 11:25 AM

Marion - according to the indymedia.org link posted on another thread yesterday, 11 million people marched for peace yesterday worldwide! Here's the numbers given for Canadian cities at this "grass-roots" site (sorry, couldn't link the exact pages - if you browse through you'll find them):

Vancouver - 30,000
Edmonton - 10,000
Toronto   - 80,000
Montreal - 150,000 (*whew!* C'est formidable!)

These numbers are considerably higher than the ones given in this CBC report. Strange thing is, according to CBC Newsworld last night, there were an estimated 150,000 marching in Montreal! Which lends credibility to the 'grass-roots' numbers above. And of course this leaves out Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, Halifax, Ottawa (where an couple thousand people demonstrated in front the US Consolate) etc.

If these numbers are true, then I'm 'guesstimating' that about 300,000 Canadians marched for peace in the bitter cold yesterday!   :-)   'Tis a proud day indeed to be a Canuck!!!

My favorite sign at the Barrie peace rally yesterday read "Iraq = the 51st state!" (with the = slashed out). My least favorite, a picture of Bush with devil's horns, tail and pitchfork drawn on. I don't think it lends credibility to the peace movement to demonize anyone ...

Here's some of peace slogans taken from a list gathered at the indymedia.org site of signs carried at the last huge demonstration in Washington DC for Martin Luther King Jr. Day. I've bolded my favorites...

"Bush/Cheney: Malice in Blunderland
Who would Jesus bomb?
War begins with 'Dubya'.
Bush is proof that empty warheads can be dangerous.
Let's bomb Texas, they have oil too.
How did our oil get under their sand?

If you can't pronounce it, don't bomb it.
Different Bush, same shit.
Daddy, can I start the war now?
1000 points of light and one dim bulb.
Sacrifice our SUV's, not our children.
Preemptive impeachment.
Frodo has failed, Bush has the ring.
Look, I'll pay more for gas!
Draft dodgers shouldn't start wars.
War is sweet to those who haven't tasted it (Erasmus).
Our grief [over 9/11] is not a cry for war.
Stop the Bushit.
Just war/just oil.
You don't have to like Bush to love America.
Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld: the asses of evil.
$1 billion a day to kill people-what a bargain.
Smush Bush.
America, get out of the Bushes.
Pro-lifers: Wake from Bush's propaganda spell-war kills innocent children.
Disarm Bush too.
Big brother isn't coming-he's already here.

Empires fall.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind (Gandhi).
Mainstream white guys for peace. (held by three mainstream-looking white guys)
Hans Blix-look over here.
Let Exxon send their own troops.
There's a terrorist behind every Bush.
We can't afford to rule the world.
9-11-01: 15 Saudis, 0 Iraqis.
Don't waive your rights while waving your flag.
Drop Bush not bombs.
Bush is to Christianity as Osama is to Islam.
War is not a family value.

(Picture of the peace symbol:) Back by popular demand.
(A picture of Bush with a red-stained upper lip:) Got blood?
(A picture of Bush saying) "Why should I care what the American people think? They didn't vote for me."
SUV's: Axles of Evil
Drunk Frat Boy Drives Country into Ditch
Violence comes from uncreative thinking
Axis of Evil: Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Cheney
DESTROY FLORIDA
Axis of Evil: Militarism, Racism, Commercialism
Give Impeachment a Chance
Bush Fails I.raQ. Test
Preemptive peace
No more blood for oil
We don't want your phony war
Security through peace
Drop Sanctions-Not Bombs
This war will make us less safe
Get the Empty Warheads out of the White House
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 11:50 AM

Great list, Daylia. I remember seeing many of these in DC last month. Mine read "Whose God Are You Hearing, Mr. Bush?".

Anyone seeing any thing worth watching this morning on the tube? The few times I've turned it on there are drum beaters on every channel. Normal!

Damage Control...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:30 PM

"It's your Government people hate, Norton, not your people or your country"

Whether I like it or not my government is me. And to the French who painted swasticas on the American flag - I'm sure those thousands of Americans who bled to get that mark out of your country are thrilled. Too bad you couldn't have let us know that in 1944 - we could have bypassed you and saved millions of lives.

Peg - Just for you - Those "sick" Marines who put sayings on their gun barrels are the sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters, of Americans who wrote the same thing on their gun barrels with the same "sick" enthusiasm as when they were getting ready for Normandy, North Africa, Italy, and thousands of other spots in the world that aren't being repressed today. It's folks of your ilk that don't understand where the freedom to demonstrate really comes from. It comes from some of us who make ugly things happen to repressive regimes in your stead. Instead of being so judgemental maybe you ought to research a bit before you open your mouth. What's it say in the bible? If you are without sin cast the first stone?

GUEST - I agree with you completely about the Patriot Act - Biggest power grab in history - unless you count Saddam or some of his ilk - Far as I am concerned we ought to simply arm every American, train them in the use of a weapon, and permit concealed carry.

I am proud of you who marched - you did well. I know I said I would not say anymore but am in process of closing some loose ends up. Doesn't make any difference what you all have to say about the things I've posted before or now. We appear to be on a different page in this phase of the game. Except for GUEST - now that is something that ought to be photographed for posterity.

Kat - Far as Bob goes - he apologized in private and I accepted and forgave him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:51 PM

We had a big rally at the State Capitol in Sacramento yesterday. It made me get all misted up, to see all these people express their opposition to this war. It was also nice to see a lot of old friends there.

Hey, we even had a blimp up above us.

One thing I noted, though, was that the speakers on the rostrum were far more strident and far less rational than I see in the mainstream of the people who oppose the war. The speakers seemed to imply that if we are to oppose the war, we must unite - and sign on to their whole agenda. I'm not ready to do that. As a rule, I keep as far away from demagogues as I can. This war is certainly "not in my name," but neither are the rigid ideologies of the extreme right and left.

-Joe Offer, Radical Moderate-


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:53 PM

A slogan on a sign caried by a demonstrator (on CNN)

"I see dead people."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM

"Whether I like it or not my government is me."



If your government was led by Stalin? Hitler? Saddam? My point mot being that Bush is to be equated with all these, but that "my government is me" doesn't really stand-up when you think what it means. (And remember Hitler came to power through a democratic electoralmsystem, even though more people voted against him than for him. That happens in other places too.)

If our governments don't stand for what we believe in we've got a right and a duty to stand up against them. And so have other people in other countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:38 PM

Voice of Canadian peace demonstrator in front of the US consolate in Ottawa yesterday (on CBC Newsworld last night), "Bush is trying to subvert the UN. Bush is trying to subvert the whole world."

Brrrrrrrrr - I find thoughts like that even chillier than -20 somehow. No wonder so many braved the cold to exercise 'democratic freedom'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:52 PM

Your government is you Norton? That is the government that refused to extradite IRA terrorists. YOU SUPPORT TERRORISM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:16 PM

The Peace March in Seattle was peaceful.

During the WTO demonstrations in Seattle, a group of about 200 self-styled "anarchists" started smashing windows and setting fires and managed to goad the police into attacking the peaceful demonstrators. The idea, of course, was to convince the rest of the world that the 40,000 people who demonstrated peacefully were nothing but a bunch of hooligans. Despite the word that these "anarchists" intended to try to do it again yesterday, nothing happened. Out of the 15,000 to 30,000 demonstrators (depending on who's figures you choose to believe), there was only one arrest. All in all, it was a very powerful statement. The story is HERE.

There was a counter-demonstration at Oak Harbor on Whidbey Island. This small town is by a naval air station and a large portion of the population consists of the families of Navy personnel station in the Gulf, mostly on aircraft carriers. 500 to 1,000 people participated (again, depending on who's figures you chose to believe). The televission news interviewed a number of these folks. They seemed to be under the impression that those who were demonstrating in Seattle and in other cities in the U. S. were "un-American," "unpatriotic," "traitors for not supporting the troops," and the one I liked the best, "cowardly parasites on the courage of those who fight for our freedoms!" I feel sorry for these folks, first, because their relatives in the armed forces are being sent off, not to protect our freedoms, but to impose the will of the Bush Administration on the rest of the world, and because they are sufficiently naïve to have swallowed the lies and fabrications fed to them in the name of patriotism by a bogus administration. Unfortunately, with these good folks, the Big Lie works. They haven't grasped that the best way we can "support our troops" is not to put them in harm's way for the sake of the ego of an incompetent President and the greed of those he serves.

The question now is, will the Bush Administration bow to the will of the people they claim the represent, or will they continue to pursue their illegal and immoral course of action?

Regime change in 2004!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:22 PM

Indymedia now puts the total number marching for peace yesterday at almost twelve million. 2.5 million in Rome, 1.75 million in London, 175,000 in NYC, and 100,000 in Toronto! :-)

Ahh, the glowing web of world-wide camaradarie warmeth my heart indeed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Hated Guest
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:29 PM

Don...the purpose of the WTO police riot was to establish precedent. The people arrested were placed in the naval brig there, and subsequent questions arose as to whether they should be dealt with under U.S. law or MARITIME law, since technically the brig is under military control. Look at the PATRIOT Act and all the legislation since Sept. 11. The only way Bush/Ashcroft could justify the illegal 'enemy combatant' classification was to fall back on 'maritime' statutes and then lock up their test cases in navy brigs. What they are doing is so highly illegal (at the moment) that it can't be backed up by U.S. code, so they are using non-U.S. law. The Seattle riot was just a step in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM

One marcher in Juneau had used a hot-glue gun to write on the back of his jacket: No War in Iraq for Ego and Oil

This morning's paper estimates the number of marchers yesterday as 1,500. Since we're an isolated community and can't draw from surrounding areas, these people are all Juneauites. Way to go.

One missing component of the population was youngsters between the ages of 14, say, and 18. Is this peculiar to this community or was that largely true in your neighborhoods?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Susan A-R
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM

Well, it was cold up here in VT (we really haven't cracked 10 f for a few days and I'm darned tired of it.) My Mother actually showed up for her first demonstration ever. I'm wicked proud of her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 04:22 PM

Dear, dear Hated Guest,

I don't know which galaxy you beamed in from, but I'm afraid you've landed on the wrong planet. At least your information doesn't jibe with those of earthlings who have lived here awhile. What you are trying to claim is a cart-load of bovine droppings.

I've resided in Seattle off and on since December of 1940, so I have a fair clue of what goes on up here in this little enclave of log cabins and igloos. The WTO conference and protests in Seattle took place from November 29 to December 2nd in 1999. You will note that this was before the Bush Administration took power and well before the Patriot Act. "9/11," as you apparently need reminding, took place on September 11th of the year of Our Lord, 2000.

The riots got to within a couple of blocks of the apartment build on Capitol Hill in which my wife and I live. We hunkered down and followed everything on the TV and wondered how close things were actually going to get. We also know several people who were there in the thick of it. Those who were arrested were put in the King County Jail in downtown Seattle, not any kind of Navy brig. It came under civil law, not maritime law. Also, due to some of the excesses of the police department, there was a full scale investigation, and the police chief at the time was forced to resign. The Federal Government did not get involved.

Where the hell do you get this stuff? I am deeply concerned about the state of you mental health.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Hated Guest
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM

Sand Point naval brig. It's use during the Seattle riots has been cited in legal cases since that time. Americans civilians were kidnapped and stored in the brig just to set precedent.

And it happened on the Clinton watch. Clinton is as great a traitor as Bush (pick one).

The Seattle Police Riot was created in order to begin the process of making maritime law pre-eminent in the U.S.

Sometimes the closer you live to something the less you know about it.

"Those arrested were handcuffed, photographed and hauled away in buses to the old Navy brig at the former Sand Point Naval Station northeast of downtown..."

The Precedent

"Instead, the government is asking the court "to authorize the indefinite and potentially lifelong confinement of an American citizen in a military brig without any opportunity to contest the charges against him because no charges have been filed," the ACLU said...."

Early application

Your country's laws are being being gutted, Don. They're using Maritime law as an interim step, until they legally enact the really nasty new stuff...which will ALSO cite maritime law so we can be turned over to the U.N.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,HG
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM

Kick in the head, ain't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:37 PM

You're still full of buffalo dung, HG. True, the King County jail had been filled to capacity, so they bused a bunch to the decommissioned Naval Air Station that used to be called Sand Point. Sand Point has been turned into a city park—Magnusen Park, named after a former long-time Washington State senator. The old Navy facilities are still there, and the buildings are being used for various kinds of classes, including arts and crafts, and the tennis courts are open to the public. It's a nice place to go for a picnic on a sunny Sunday afternoon. The old brig is still there, although it is almost never used anymore. When the King County jail in downtown Seattle was filled to capacity, the overflow was bused to the old facilities at Magnusen Park. Your first quote was incomplete. The rest of the story is here:—
Those arrested were handcuffed, photographed and hauled away in buses to the old Navy brig at the former Sand Point Naval Station northeast of downtown. Once there, several hundred demonstrators continued their protest Wednesday night by refusing for hours to leave the buses. Police began carrying the last 100 passive resisters off the buses to the booking counter early today, Paskin said.

Bail ranging from $2,000 to $50,000 was set for 14 people facing felony charges in Tuesday's mayhem.

"I don't have any problems with protest, freedom of expression. I have problems with destruction of property," King County District Judge Mark Chow said.
Many of these people were the self-styled "anarchists" I spoke of, whom the police arrested in the process of smashing windows in downtown stores. They were released on bail the following day.

Your second quote has no connection whatsoever with the first.

Take your meds. You'll feel better.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:13 AM

YOU SUPPORT TERRORISM

You drive a car? So do you - so what's your point? My government is a direct reflection of the majority of the population. Next election we'll see who is our president. That's how we do it. Majority rules - and that means that until 2004 this is what we have.

If I were to extrapolate that since you believe Mr. Bush to be so bad we should do anything to remove him. If that assumption is correct then we ought to remove Saddam under those same assumptions. And we know he is bad -

So on that point - bite me oh anonymous one - :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:34 AM

Don...

Sand Point was the staging area for the 'anarchists'. The Feds moved in and told the local cops how it was going to be. I have film of the arrests, the 'anarchists' drinking beer at Sand Point and crashing in their sleeping bags after their work was done that night. They were hired by the feds to do a job. Several documentary films have used the footage I just described.

I'm glad you dug a bit deeper into what you thought was known.

The Seattle riots were a pivotal event in the formation of our new tyrannical govt. Sand Point should have been stormed and leveled to bedrock after American citizens were taken there for practicing freedom of speech and the right to assemble.

And according to your gibberish, Jose Padilla is having a freaking picnic at another brig. This country should be enraged over the lost rights of that scummy gangbanger being held forever without just cause and no lawyer...just because Ashcroft wants it. But once again we're failing the test. Just like in Seattle.

No hard feelings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:40 AM

You folks obviously take a great deal of pride in the number of folks who turned out (many of them in terrible weather) to express their opposition to disarming Saddam. Good, I say. Everyone should have an opportunity to have their say. Those who had that opportunity are grateful, I'm sure that they live in a country that is free to do that. From all reports, the people of Iraq don't have that opportunity. I'm sure, though, that all of you who are protesting our government's efforts to correct the situation for Iraq's citizens take that into account. Right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:11 AM

There were a lot of issues floating around at the New York rally. At the time of the event, the police were agreeing with the organizers' count of about half a million. Since then, I have seen counts as low as 100,000. Where I was, the whole thing was peaceful and civil with a complete mix of ages, ethnic groups and races.

Although there were mentions of arrests at various locations, even the police who were trying to get the people off the streets in favor of vehicular traffic were civil.

Afterward, my son commented that Dubya should not be allowed to use any weapon he could not pronounce correctly.

I really had the feeling that the whole day was very much like the speech in Henry V, citing those who would wish they had been there and would envy the participants. I also hope and believe that this may have been a seminal moment in the movement, rather than a high water mark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:47 PM

Plumber's mate and myself took part in the quiet, dignified, ranting-speech-free protest in Brussels on Saturday.

For the first time in my life, the European flag really meant something to me and I was pleased to walk behind it: not in a flag-waving Euro-jingo spirit but precisely because the European Union, with all its faults, is the fruit of Franco-German reconciliation. It came about after those two countries had battered each other to death for the greater part of a century (coal and steel, not oil, were the "resource war" commodities in those days), and because its core value is the belief that jaw-jaw is better than war-war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM

Thread Creep (in this case, an expression subject to whatever interpretation you might want to put on it):—

Beloved Hated Guest, I sympathize with your view—which is to say that I have sympathy for anyone who holds the kind of views you do—because it appears that you have joined the ranks of those folks who can only be described as " The Terminally Bewildered."

My father was a health professional in a field which, at the time, was at odds with the Medical profession. It has since been grudgingly accepted as valid by those who used to consider it quackery. But as a result, my father was the recipient of many bulletins and newsletters from persons and organizations that assumed he would be open to their dire warnings about their particular Conspiracy du Jour. The following are some examples:
1. Unbeknownst to the world at large—except, of course, for the fellow putting out the newsletter—John D. Rockefeller (and when he died, the entire Rockefeller family) owns all the major corporations in the world, and he is just waiting his chance to enslave us all so that he will no longer have to pay anybody wages. What should we do about it? He had no answers to that. He just wanted an outlet for his hatred of the Rockefellers, and he wanted everybody else to hate them, too.
2. The Illuminati, of course, was one of the more popular groups who were going to take over the world.
3. However, they would have to compete with the Masons, who also had dibs on the planet.
4. The Zionists (proof: the Protocols of the Elders of Zion) were in there pitchin'.
5. But they would have to contend with the Catholics. Were you aware that when John F. Kennedy became President, the Pope started digging a tunnel under the Atlantic to use as an invasion route for the Vatican Guard so they could, with Kennedy's help, stage a coup, take over the United States, and force everybody to become Catholic? Oh, yeah! The newsletters said so!
6. One that was not supposed to be a danger to the world came from the planet Venus, our nearest neighbor in space. The Venusians had a base for their UFOs near Mt. Shasta, and there, in a secret hideaway under the mountain, the reincarnation of Jesus had just taken place, born by a young woman who had Immaculately Conceived. At the proper time, Jesus would make his presence known, and the Millenium would begin. But since "the moneyed interests" would try to crucify Him again, the Venusians (referred to in the Bible as "angels") would use their phasers and photon torpedoes (or whatever) to enforce the benign will of Jesus on the peoples of the earth—for their own good. But not to worry. All would be Heavenly, except for those who resisted and would be sent to Hell.
7. Did you know that the earth is hollow and that an entire civilization lives inside? The entrances to the Hollow Earth are at the North and South poles. True. We got another newsletter that said so.
You seem to fall into the "World Government and black helicopter" category. I've heard this kind of stuff all my life. It all has the same general thrust and the same hysterical tone.

Now, I'm quite sure there are people who want to take over the world. Alexander the Great was an early success story. Various Roman emperors were well practiced and quite good at it. Then came Attila the Hun. More recently, there was Napoleon, more recently still was Adolph Hitler and Benito Mussolini. There number is legion.

Currently, we seem to have George W. Bush. What he and Ashcroft and the rest of the cabal are doing is pretty obvious to anyone who takes the time to look behind the news a bit (unfortunately, not as many as there should be in what is supposed to be an "informed electorate"), and this is bad enough without coming up with every imaginary scenario you run across on some website somewhere. These websites are merely more recent equivalents of the newsletters that clogged our mailbox.

In the current context, I consider these alarums you keep spreading through these threads to be like the ink emitted by a squid. It clouds the water and obscures the nature of the danger that actually is there.

Hated Guest, O best beloved, two plus two is four, not twenty-two.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM

I respect authority. I respect the administration of the United States of america. I have faith in their plans and I support them.
I do not think George Bush or any of his administration have any hidden agendas.
I think the people that are protesting are excersising their rights. How did they aquire that right? Have they heard of the American revolution? Was that a war? Did people die in that war? Was it worth the bloodshed?

If they were in that era protesting war, would there even be a United States of America? They key word here is United.

Why don't they direct their efforts toward protesting the lack of rights of the people of Iraq?

The villain here is Saddam Hussein, not the USA.

Bubba


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: brid widder
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM

I took part in the London march on Saturday.... along with millions more. I've never been on any sort of march before I was a demo virgin!!! it was amazing...I think every estimate is of how many took part is an underestimate!!... all ages... ... mums dads & kids wheelchairs and pushchairs.   We were on the Gower Street branch... the walk along Gower street itself took 2 hours ... before we reached the official start! we started at 12:30 & reached Hyde park at 6:00 ... well after all the speeches had finished there were lots after us, and many who never had a chance of getting to the end in time for coaches home.

I was there to say this is NOT IN MY NAME... all over the world we said it loud and clear... will we be heard?

does anyone know where I could get a transcript of the Hyde park speeches?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:18 PM

Some of the arguments about the demos (either the plural of demo, or "we the people") do seem very weak.

1. We are very lucky to have the right to do this, and people in the country you are complaining about don't. Implied conclusion - you shouldn't use the right because everyone on Earth doesn't have it. But you should still be grateful that you have it, even if, morally, you shouldn't use it. This is rubbish - use it or lose it. The government is meant to find it difficult to deal with, and irritating. That is why it is a right. Otherwise it's no more than choosing to take a walk on a Saturday afternoon.

2. The numbers involved are fewer than those who have died under SAddam Hussein. Implied conclusion - your opinion doesn't outweigh their implied support for the war. True as regards numbers - but what about those who will die in a war? Their numbers may well, almost certainly will, be greater. Don't we have a duty to mention this?

That our glorious leaders fall back on these arguments shows the weakness of their positions.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,The Hated Guest
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 07:55 PM

Geez Don...

I didn't know I was pushing your buttons on the Seattle fiasco. But that was an engineered riot. The Feds did it. I have tape of the 'anarchists' pulling off their ski masks afterwards and being slapped on the backs by cops. Damn...sorry you didn't know about that. The footage really is in several documentaries. It happened. And it happened just so protestors could be trotted through a naval brig after their arrests. In order to set precedent. Believe it or not. All you have to do is run a search at www.google.com for 'Sand Point riot'...something like that. Major media reportage.

And now we have Jose Padilla in jail forever at the Gooseneck naval brig in South Carolina. Direct result of what happened at Seattle.

The Feds can't really incarcerate us yet under existing law the way they'd like to, so they're using military facilities...where they can argue military and maritime law applies. But that is changing as you deny the obvious. The absolute end of America will be put to paper in this legislative session. S.45...senate bill 45...will alter one word and turn control of all cities and counties over to FEMA. Period. One word will be changed and that will happen. Test case right now...New Orleans. A week ago the mayor surrendered all city functions to FEMA. And that's what changing ONE WORD will do. And there are tens of thousands of subsections in dozens of bills which will criminalize everything and make you and me subject to incarceration, slavery or death. It's here, buddy. Sorry to break bad news to good people, but it's here.

Go to thomas.gov and type in s.89. The 'draft'. But that's a mis-direction. It is 'universal service'. For national defense...'and other purposes'. That means the young females in our families will be prostitutes in the future. Those fighting men need sexual release, so the U.S. govt will put girls to work as whores if they don't want to dig ditches. Imagine the worst thing you ever conceived going on in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia and square it. That's what we'll have...on paper, at least...in two years.

And one of the first steps in the march to tyranny...one of the most obvious ones...occurred in your own backyard.

New Orleans Seized by Feds

The link above is about the takeover of New Orleans by the Federal Government. The strategy seems to be that cities and counties will be starved for cash. The Feds ordered massive new 'anti-terror' programming be put in place, and they promised federal money to do it. So cities have complied, and now there's no cash. But the feds will provide it (and personell) if the cities and counties surrender control. This ain't UFOs, Don. See...the media has succeeded wildly (in your case, at least) in linking the word 'conspiracy' with 'theory', while they flash outlandish images at you on your television screen. You have to BREAK that conditioning in order to read the news objectively, and the only way I can suggest you do that is to turn off your TV and study the Constitution. Organized crime has taken over the U.S., and they stage events like the 'protest' in Seattle, and the 'attack' on Sept 11 in order to create new law and unify people behind perceived outside threats. Simple as that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:02 PM

New Orleans...they didn't surrender 'all' functions, but the major ones. The ones the Feds need to bring a city to its knees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:03 PM

I have a question for any of you who participated in a march, regardless of where it was.

Did you see anyone protesting because Saddam is not living up to Iraq's agreements with the UN?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:22 PM

Look Doug play fair.   

Noone was marching "to express their opposition to disarming Saddam." And you know that. Maybe you beieve thtabthe effect of themarching might be to make him less likely to be disarmed, butbthta si a very very different thing. Soi stick you accusingb us ofvthe things that you believe toi be the case, not ofvthings thta you don'ty believe to be the case.

You won't find me accusing you of wanting to kill children. But if I argued like you have been there, I would be saying exactlyblikem tyhta, And I'd be lying if I said that.

We were marching to express our opposition to bombing ordinary people just like us who happen to live in Iraq, under a bloody unpleasant government.

And we were marching in the hope that the efforts of the inspection team, sent to Iraq with teh support (so it seemed) of your givernment and mine, would succeed in achieveing a situation in which there would be no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, even if there are any now.

A few months ago you were saying on the Mudcat that you believed that what Bush wanted was to use the threat of war as a way of forcing Saddam to cooperate, and that there wouldn't be a war But now that when precisely that appears to be beginning to happen, you want to blow the whistle for a war that you were so sure would not happen and need not happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:52 PM

Look Doug play fair.   

Noone was marching "to express their opposition to disarming Saddam." And you know that. Maybe you beieve that the effect of the marching might be to make him less likely to be disarmed, but that is a very very different thing. So stick you accusing us of the things that you believe to be the case, not of things that you don't believe to be the case.

You won't find me accusing you of wanting to kill children. But if I argued like you have been there, I would be saying things exactly like that. And I'd be lying if I did so, and I try not to lie.

We were marching to express our opposition to bombing ordinary people just like us who happen to live in Iraq, under a bloody unpleasant government.

And we were marching in the hope that the efforts of the inspection team, sent to Iraq with teh support (so it seemed) of your government and mine, would succeed in achieving a situation in which there would be no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, even if there are any now.

A few months ago you were saying on the Mudcat that you believed that what Bush wanted was to use the threat of war as a way of forcing Saddam to cooperate, and that there wouldn't be a war But now that when precisely that appears to be beginning to happen, you want to blow the whistle for a war that you were so sure would not happen and need not happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:55 PM

I can tell you about some folks that are not marching.

The 650 prisoners that Saddam Hissein captured in Kuwait and has never accounted for.


Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click here if you really want to read this shit. Old Guy, check the FAQ for our policy against non-music copy-paste information. If it fills my screen, I'll delete it. If you don't like the policy, post somewhere other than a music forum.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 09:06 PM

Like I said, HG, I've heard it all before. And I'm right here in Seattle where it all happened, and as I said, I know a bunch of people who were there and knew what went on first hand.

You wouldn't be one of those guys from eastern Oregon, would you? One of the guys wearing a ski mask and wielding a baseball bat? Because what you're saying sounds a lot like what some of them said.

'Bye now. I'm gonno go watch a video. Something I haven't seen before.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 01:50 AM

I ended up going to Detroit Lakes MN. for a rally. It was a small gathering of folks. Only about 50 of us, but I had a great time! I met some good people out there, and some from my home town so we are going to try to get something going right at home.
Considering our small group, I believe we made our statement in that town. The majority of people seemed to be with us, I would say about 50% of people passing. And then we got the finger, thumbs down, one mooner!
We just yelled, "fingers for peace!" I had an excellent time and going again on March 1 for a march. I also got some great photos.
I'm happy for the people who got out there and did it. Sounds like it was good and peaceful everywhere.

- The alternative to peace is dead children.

Great list of signs Daylia.

Peace. Rustic


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 12:14 PM

Here's another cogent post from a friend:

"So peace marchers all over the world get barely a disparaging mention on the national news but ABC and NBC run simultaneous two-hour specials on Michael Jackson's nose job. And the French think we can't run the world! Huh! They are all the sons of a silly person!"

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 05:08 PM

McGrath: What do you mean "play fair?" What's unfair about posing a question about whether any of the "Marchers" had signs criticizing Saddam for bring on this mess in the first place. If he had abided by the U.N. Resoultions there would have been no reason for the millions of people (many of them in freezing weather) to get out and march!

As to your remark about my earlier comment about Bush forcing Saddam to comply by applying pressure, what do you think caused him to cooperate as much as he has? If Saddam had bent to the pressure and complied, there would be no war! He hasn't, and he won't, and there will be one.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM

And I forgot the one about not marching against Saddam. We protest to affect those who claim to represent and act for us, who should take some account of us if we say we don't want another episode in which millions of civilians who have no choice are bombed, thousands of young men in armies are killed on all the sides involved, in which a short action turns out to take years, and more young people find that terrorism seems the only way to end it. If we feel no one is listening, then we protest. There's not the same reason to protest about people who are not supposed to be our servants, is there? About someone who is not talking about starting the war, in our name? Which is not to say we like, or support Saddam in any way. Or would have supplied him with arms if we had a choice.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM

Penny, what Doug is trying to do here is apply a logical fallacy known as the argumentum ad hominem. A fairly good explanation can be found HERE.

The whole point of the argumentum ad hominem is to divert attention from the original statement ("war is wrong") by questioning the competence or moral position of the person making the statement. When the protesters say "we should not go to war," Doug doesn't want to argue with that. It gets him into the quagmire of trying to justify an untenable position. So to avoid that, he attacks the moral position of the protesters by accusing them of favoring Saddam Hussein, which is 1) not true; and 2) even if it were true, it would not refute the original argument that we should not go to war.

Philosophy 110 — Elementary Logic.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM

MORE on the agumentem ad hominem. Good to know this, because it's used a lot. A common method of trying to confuse the issue.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 08:26 PM

You folks obviously take a great deal of pride in the number of folks who turned out (many of them in terrible weather) to express their opposition to disarming Saddam.

That was the post I was expressing dismay at, Doug, the one you'd written earlier at 1.40 on 17th February, not the one you sent while I was writing a reply. I included the actual quote in my post. to indicate even more clearly which post of yours I was commenting on, and which bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 06:25 PM

Joe:

I am sorry. I did not read the FAQ.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:57 PM

Oldguy, how many of those folk presently denied basic human rights at Guantanomo made it to the demos I wonder?

Norton1, I guess no-one can stop you coming back into the thread after you said you were leaving it, but in my book attacking Peg is unforgiveable, in any circumstances, on any. I was interested to see that "millions" of lives could have been saved by bypassing France in 1944. Really? Whose? Still, I realise you've not arrived at your views without some thought, and if you're calling for Saddam to be declared a war criminal I'm with you 100 per cent - especially if you'd go the last mile and support the principle of an international court to try such monsters.

DougR's posts, however, seem to have become cringe-makingly thoughtless. There must surely be more going for Bush's policy than these empty-headed arguments. But possibly not.


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