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PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar

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Nemesis 05 Feb 03 - 03:01 PM
The Shambles 05 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM
Nemesis 05 Feb 03 - 07:03 PM
The Shambles 06 Feb 03 - 04:56 AM
Micca 06 Feb 03 - 06:28 AM
the lemonade lady 06 Feb 03 - 06:59 AM
Nemesis 06 Feb 03 - 07:26 AM
The Shambles 06 Feb 03 - 07:34 AM
The Shambles 07 Feb 03 - 05:21 PM
The Shambles 08 Feb 03 - 08:55 AM
The Shambles 09 Feb 03 - 06:06 AM
The Shambles 09 Feb 03 - 07:42 AM
The Shambles 19 Feb 03 - 07:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 03 - 07:28 PM
The Shambles 19 Feb 03 - 07:29 PM
Nemesis 20 Feb 03 - 09:35 PM
The Shambles 21 Feb 03 - 02:19 AM
Richard Bridge 22 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM
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Subject: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: Nemesis
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:01 PM

The NCA is organising a FREE information seminar on PEL and the new
Licensing Bill, which will be addressed by Andrew Cunningham, Head of
Licensing at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

The seminar will provide information on the latest developments in the
government's position and offer an opportunity to get some answers to
your burning questions.

If you would like to come, your contribution would be most welcome.
The seminar is on 20 February at the Wigmore Hall in London, from 2-4pm.
If you could pass the information on via your information networks, I would be most grateful. If you are intending to come please let me know, so that I can be sure of numbers (fitting in the venue). (TEL: 020 7333 0375)
If you need any other information, please do let me know.
With best wishes
Jackie
Jackie Clayton
Campaigns Manager
National Campaign for the Arts
020 7333 0375


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM

Andrew Cunningham is the man who is responsible for worst aspects this Bill, so it would be a good chance to explain to him (and the media) what is wrong with it.


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: Nemesis
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 07:03 PM

refresh then :) !! See you there Roger?


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 04:56 AM

The question has been asked if written (burning) questions, from those who do not live in London, can be supplied to the NCA for Mr Cunningham to answer.


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: Micca
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 06:28 AM

I could probably make this, so I will contact the guy at the top and see if its possible


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 06:59 AM

The AFFO sent me this today

http://www.mrscasey.co.uk/afo/pel.html

can't do blicky but take a look anyway.

Sal


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: Nemesis
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:26 AM

AFO


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:34 AM

http://www.mrscasey.co.uk/afo/pel.html

An excellent document that will provide much ammunition and support for any questions to be fired at Mr Cunningham.

I think the "guy at a the top", Jackie may be a lady?


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:21 PM

A bit more on the NCA and their campaign on the Licensing Bill. Link to their website.

http://www.artscampaign.org.uk/info/research.html


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 08:55 AM

The Stage - front page headline for 30 January 2003

NCA CONFRONTS LICENSING CRITICS
By Sally Bramley


National Campaign for the Arts director Victoria Todd has attacked the "unhelpful misinformation and hysteria" which she alleges is being whipped up by some critics of the new entertainment licensing bill. Todd, who has been involved in drafting amendments to the legislation currently going through the Lords, said exaggeration the problems would lead ministers to "close their ears" to legitimate criticism of the reforms.

She said: "it is not helpful when people come up with apocryphal stories. We've got to make sure our facts ate accurate. If not, the government can turn round and say that it is a load of rubbish. "There is no point in taking it to an exaggerated conclusion. It will get you press coverage but it is absolute drivel. You have to study the bill and go through it."

Todd did not refer to any particular critic of the bill in her comments. By contrast, the government has been particularly scathing about the involvement of the Musician's Union in particular. The MU has played a leading role in opposition to the planned legislation. Last week Kim Howells, the minister responsible for overseeing the bill, delivered a vociferous defence of the reforms in a feature in The Stage. He has also gone on record to accuse the MU of running a "pernicious and lying campaign".

Howells added: 2Claims that activities like rehearsing in a rehearsal studio, carol singing on someone's door step or trying out a guitar in a music shop will be licensable are pure fantasy. "I hope the Musicians Union will acknowledge this and that we can work together from here to address any genuine concerns they have about the content of the bill that are based on fact not fiction."

But this week a furious John Smith, general secretary of the MU, hit back, challenging the minister to prove the union wrong: "We have had a good relationship with the culture minister but this marks a low point. I find his comments extremely insulting. "if we are wrong we will be glad to climb down, These are issues of great concern to our members. We hope it won't as we suspect, kill some aspects of live music."

In a letter to The Stage this week, the MU leader repeated claims that the bill was imprecisely worded and would unfairly affect thousands of unintended victims insisting that "what the minister says and what the bill means are two different things".

A spokesman from Equity appeared to echo Todd's criticism, saying it had been working with closely with the Department of Culture, Media and Sport to discuss the proposed legislation. But he added: "We have not been helped by some of the claims which we believe are not acurate".


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 06:06 AM

Todd, who has been involved in drafting amendments to the legislation currently going through the Lords, said exaggeration the problems would lead ministers to "close their ears" to legitimate criticism of the reforms.

Have these "ears" ever been open?

I must question this person's motivation and their mandate to speak on behalf of anyone except themselves.

I think we should be prepared to work with anyone who shares our concern about the Bill. However, I think anyone, like Todd, who make the sort of unspecified claims and criticisms of fellow campaigners, and allows this to be splashed over front page of the Stage, should be viewed with more than a little caution.

We will never all agree on everything but these differences and wild claims should not, at this time be aired publicly in the media.

There is a danger that this seminar will be turned into an PR appeasment exercise for the DCMS and a stunt for the purposes of NCA. This is why it is important that those who can attend make a point of ringing up and stating their intention of doing so. This will at least reflect the concerns of those not involved in the rarefied air of the higher 'arts'.


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 07:42 AM

This from Dave Eyre.

One piece of crucial information that sems to have passed a lot of people by is the company that was appointed to advise DEFRA (food and rural affairs) on the problems of noise and disorder that would follow the passing of the Licensing Bill.

This is MCM Research http://www.i-way.co.uk/~mcm/.

It might be appropriate for someone to ask Andrew Cunningham why the government appointed someone with so many close ties to the brewing industry to adivise it on noise and nuisance in pubs. Perhaps that is why the government has all seem to have managed not to know about all the problems associated with satellite TV. This "research company" "manages" to miss them all.

(Private Eye No 1071 10th - 23rd January 2003 Page 26)

Dave

Portsmouth Evening News 30 January 2003-
On the day England sent Denmark packing in their second-round World Cup tie police were called to 24 football related incidents. Within hours of the June 15 win a brawl spilled out of the White Hart pub and a series
of disturbances broke out across Havant and Waterlooville - despite a voluntary two hour pub closure.
The violence came eight days after 50 fans fought in North Street outside the Five Bells following England™s win over Argentina.

Perhaps the above could be passed on to our MPs, in the light of the extract from the following Common™s exchange and statement from Dr Howells?

1. Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden): If she will make a
statement on her policy towards the licensing of televising of sport in
public houses under the terms of the proposed Alcohol and
Entertainment Licensing Bill. [68956]

The Minister for Tourism, Film and Broadcasting (Dr. Kim Howells): As
is the case with existing legislation, the proposed Alcohol and
Entertainment Licensing Bill will not include the licensing of the
televising of sport in public houses in its definition of public
entertainment. A publican, of course, already requires and will continue
to require a normal domestic television licence.

Siobhain McDonagh: thank my hon. Friend for his answer. However,
given the licensing disparity between televised football and live music in
pubs"the former is subject to no regulation but the latter is subject to a
complicated regulation mechanism"will he encourage members of the
Cabinet to look at introducing legislation in the Queen's Speech that will
reform the public entertainment licence system and encourage live
music and particularly young musicians in small venues?

Dr. Howells: We will certainly look at getting rid of the absurd two in a
bar rule. I have looked long and hard at the evidence, but we have
never received any to suggest that watching television in a pub
causes the kinds of scenes that have sometimes occurred in pubs
with live music. Nor, indeed, have we had any reports of
disturbances caused by watching television in a pub"we have
certainly received some reports of incidents following the playing
of live music in pubs.
Generally speaking, however, pubs are
excellent venues for live music. We want to make sure that that
continues to be the case and that there are more venues for live music,
not fewer.


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:19 PM

Is anyone going?


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:28 PM

I can't make it, and I'm sorry about that.

One question that needs to be asked is how can we make sure that this planning group to explored the guidlines has people on it who understand about music that happens outside the "industry".

And another is about that pseudo-promise about "No licence if money isn't changing hands".

I hope it won't be a shouting match. I always believe in the principle that you should never annoy an opponent unless getting annoyed weakens them signifcantly. Winning arguments in itself is a waste of energy, unless it has a useful effect on how the other party is going to behave.


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:29 PM

http://www.wigmore-hall.org.uk/ For the Wigmore Hall.


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: Nemesis
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:35 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southeast/yoursay/topics/music.shtml

Just got back from a seminar where the "Chief Architect" (Civil Servant) Andrew Cunningham was answering (or rather evading questions with stock rhetoric....

So! A Punch and Judy stall counts as a "premises" because a "dramatic role" (a "Play" in other words is being acted out) thus will need a "premises licence" (albeit that under the 1968 Theatres Act . it should already be licensed .. so the Equity Rep should be very grateful that they haven't all already been prosecuted apparently !)! An old bloke recounting dramatic stories from his childhood to an audience in a pub ... will require a licence ... the least you can get away with for raising money through a charitable event in, say, your garden .. will be a Temporary Events notice! (£20).... The DCMS envisage local authorities granting "premises" licenses to all their own open/ public spaces .. so they will have to presumably submit their own operating plans to themselves etc with their own plans for the space. Tbe Rotary Club playing carols and singing for two weeks on the pavement will either have the premises license paid for "willingly" (because they'll be "happy" to do so) by "the relevant shop .. if no shop involved, then they will be "busking" - but my information at least here in Worthing is that "Buskers" get a chitty/ permission slip that costs appx £20 and lasts for 6 months -- so, either way there's a stealth tax on charity - a Temporary Events Notice (TEN) will only be for 3 days (72 hours) .. so anywhere that wants to hold an event for, say, a week will have to apply for a premises license (although they might look at this now .. when it was pointed out how absurd this is!)

Andrew Cunningham brushed aside a point that there is no discernment between accoustic music and amplified .. oh, and any performance in an open hospital ward (we established) where the public could come in will be licensable ....

He stuck to the DCMS line that music can be a source of crime and disorder .... apparently umpteen noisy drunken football fans jumping up and down with no limits on amplification can be dealt with by applying existing conditions on the alcohol (.. so why isn't it?) because it's not the satellitel TV game that's causing the problem but the alcohol .. it all started getting very hazy for me I'm afraid (not enough alcohol) and quoted the Institute of Alcolhol studies .. ignoring my raised point about MCM Research (people started getting excited about this so, he appeared to take the opportunity to convolute the answers)

.. but the reasons for calls for amendments to clarify "grey" area would appear to be still pertinent .... when I asked "who" will be paying for a TEN when pensioners want to have a cream tea and listen to one person play a guitar and at the same raise money for Save the Children (ie charge to entry, thus make a profit) ... well, presumably the charges will have to reflect that there's a 20 quid charge before you start! (Andrew Cunningham threw his hands up and started faffing at this point about not "compelling people to pay" and "no money changing hands" means it won't be licensable .. but as draft guidelines state that raising money for charity is not exempt .. it has to come down to a TEN for a "Twenty"!)

Apparently organisers would be deciding where the point lay between covering costs and making a profit ie., you have an event and make a charge to cover costs (not a profit for charity) (so, not licensable .. I think unless a licensable activity is taking place or the public are admitted), then if it was discovered that you did make a profit (how?) then you would be liable to prosecution (re: £20,000 would be "very unlikely that the courts would fine people this much or indeed send them to prison for a whole 6 months... so, that's reassuring ... not!).

There are complicated points .. I could not get a straight answer to a Samba band procession (most likely as a one-off it would be a TEN) or as a part of a more than three days event someone would have to apply for a "premises" licence (provided it was a fixed spot) .. and apply for a second license from a local authority who already have licensed the premises ie., public space .. so -- don't upset your local authority if you want them to share their "space" with you .. )

For a Morris side .. if they turn up at a pub .. well, it's bound to have a license .. otherwise they would be busking (nobody got a word in here about "spontaneous" ... ) which isn't licenseable (a "pitch" is not a "premises" .. except obviously if you are busking with hand puppets ) .. by this time my eyes were glazing over ....

Hideuous ... hideous .. hideous .. granted that a single licence instead of all the difference licences (for cinemas/ sporting events/ pubs/ club) etc will be welcome .,. but at grass roots rock bottom level (Punch and Judy, event in your back garden it is an appalling degree of extra red tape and expense and potential minefield with criminal prosecution still unaltered for the "organiser" of these events" !

Andrew Cunningham has only ever worked for the Home Office until now that he works at the DCMS .. the Ministry for "Fun" .. his description ..

That's my gut reaction to todays' seminar ....

I'm off to Sidmouth now for a totally "illegal" weekend of organised carousing and playing in pubs all day

1 March @1pm South Street Square opp Guildbourne Centre, Worthing .. "Raising Awareness" of these issues...
Hille
x


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 02:19 AM

Andrew Cunningham has only ever worked for the Home Office until now that he works at the DCMS .. the Ministry for "Fun" .. his description ..

Thanks Hille

It has been obvious for some time that the civil servants have no understanding of the activities they are trampling through or of the effect of this trampling.

They have not listened to us and our only hope is that our Lords and MPs can TELL these civil servants what to do, rather than these people telling us what we are going to get. It does not look too hopeful.............


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Subject: RE: PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM

Please all read PLG output on the tru legal effests of the bill - adac, does4you, adn EFDSS (as of MondaY)sites


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