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Who Named the Modes?

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TIA 07 Jan 03 - 10:24 PM
mack/misophist 07 Jan 03 - 10:28 PM
dulcimer 07 Jan 03 - 10:31 PM
mack/misophist 07 Jan 03 - 10:45 PM
Mark Cohen 07 Jan 03 - 11:03 PM
Little Robyn 07 Jan 03 - 11:09 PM
Kudzuman 07 Jan 03 - 11:22 PM
Mark Cohen 07 Jan 03 - 11:30 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 07 Jan 03 - 11:34 PM
Cluin 07 Jan 03 - 11:36 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 07 Jan 03 - 11:39 PM
Mooh 08 Jan 03 - 12:09 AM
GUEST 08 Jan 03 - 12:18 AM
Sorcha 08 Jan 03 - 12:20 AM
Sorcha 08 Jan 03 - 12:21 AM
Little Robyn 08 Jan 03 - 12:38 AM
Little Robyn 08 Jan 03 - 12:39 AM
Cluin 08 Jan 03 - 12:54 AM
GUEST 08 Jan 03 - 01:09 AM
Mudlark 08 Jan 03 - 03:24 AM
GUEST 08 Jan 03 - 12:47 PM
MMario 08 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM
MMario 08 Jan 03 - 01:23 PM
GUEST 08 Jan 03 - 01:59 PM
MMario 08 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM
Cluin 08 Jan 03 - 02:31 PM
jimmyt 08 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM
Cluin 08 Jan 03 - 02:52 PM
Wolfgang 08 Jan 03 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,MTed 08 Jan 03 - 03:20 PM
MMario 08 Jan 03 - 03:29 PM
Cluin 08 Jan 03 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,MTed 08 Jan 03 - 03:53 PM
Cluin 08 Jan 03 - 03:54 PM
Cluin 08 Jan 03 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Frank Hamilton 08 Jan 03 - 04:10 PM
GUEST 08 Jan 03 - 04:19 PM
GUEST 08 Jan 03 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,Frank Hamilton 08 Jan 03 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,MTed 08 Jan 03 - 06:28 PM
TIA 08 Jan 03 - 07:42 PM
MikeOQuinn 09 Jan 03 - 12:15 AM
Cluin 09 Jan 03 - 12:51 AM
Cluin 09 Jan 03 - 01:11 AM
Benjamin 09 Jan 03 - 08:31 PM
Kaleea 10 Jan 03 - 03:53 AM
MikeOQuinn 10 Jan 03 - 04:25 AM
AKS 10 Jan 03 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,MTed 10 Jan 03 - 03:59 PM
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Subject: Who Named the Modes?
From: TIA
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:24 PM

Can anyone tell me where the names of the modes (e.g. Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian, etc.) came from?


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:28 PM

Great question! Tell me too. I point out, however, that the primary parts of the names are associated with places. Ionia, Lydia, Phrygia (sp?), etc.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: dulcimer
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:31 PM

http://www.beaufort.demon.co.uk/modes.htm
Good place to get an explanation.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:45 PM

Dear dulcimer,

Trust a spoiler to tell me more than I'm intelligent enough to absorb.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:03 PM

Oh, I thought you were talking about Depeche, Payala, and Safe.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:09 PM

That's too complicated for me!

I don't know who named them but there's a slightly easier way than that site gives, for finding the modes (without understanding the intervals), just using the white notes on a piano!

1. Starting from C, play all the white notes to the next C. That's a major scale, known as the Ionian mode.

2. Start from G, stick to the white notes and go up to the next G. That's the Mixolydian mode.

3. Now go back to D and do the same thing. That's the Dorian mode.

4. Up to A, a scale on the white notes and you have the Aeolian mode.

Those are the main modes used by folkies. You can do the same thing starting from E, from B and from F but they're pretty weird and not often used.

Everybody uses Ionian, lots of folk songs are in Mixolydian, and there are quite a few in Dorian and Aeolian so it's worth spending some time with a piano, getting to understand the feel/sound of modes.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Kudzuman
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:22 PM

Everyone is forgetting my favorite....a la mode. MMMMMMMMMMMM!!


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:30 PM

I didn't forget.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:34 PM

As Misophist points out, they are named after places. The specific places are, I believe, islands off the coast of Greece.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:36 PM

More modal trivia:

Note also that two of those 4 are major scales (Ionian, Myxolydian) and two are minor(Aeolian, Dorian) (where the third is flatted and only a half-tone above the second).

And if you reverse the order of the intervals of the more common minor scale, the Aeolian mode (tone, semi, tone, tone, semi, tone, tone) you get the Myxolydian mode (tone, tone, semi, tone, tone, semi, tone).

Reversing the order of the Ionian mode, however, will give you the Phrygian mode, another minor scale--though it is the second note of the scale that is flatted, resulting in the 3rd still being a half-tone lower than in a major scale, even though it is a whole tone above the second. The Phrygian is also popular in other forms of folk music (middle eastern, eastern European, etc.).

Another scale common in folk, Celtic and blues is the pentatonic scale which consists of 5 notes only, leaving out the regular 3rd and 7th notes from the major scale. It avoids the whole major/minor question altogether, as well as whether to flat the 7th or not (whether to go with the Ionic (the 7th being a half-tone lower than the tonic) or Myxolydian (the 7th being flatted and a whole tone lower than the tonic).

There's more scales out there than the 7 ones the Medieval monks made from adapting the original Greek models though: there's the whole tone scale (7 notes, no semi-tones), the diminished scale (9 notes), Enigmatic, Neoploitan, Neoploitan minor, Hungarian minor, and any other combination you'd want to make up, though not all of them sound pretty.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:39 PM

What a GRAND thread....

Little Robin - Thank You!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:09 AM

Ron Middlebrook's book, Scales and Modes In The Beginning (Created Especially For Guitarists) (Hal Leonard Corp), has two pages of "Foreign and Exotic Scales", about 36 of them not including the usual modes. More than I've ever needed so far.

A worthy book.

Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:18 AM

According to Phil Taylor's excellent docuentation for BarFlay:

Although there had been developent of modes for centuries:

Finally, in the 16th century Glarean identified 12 modes and assigned Greek names to them...


To expand on Little Robyn's post (and using the same system), Phil Identifies the following as the 7 "white note" modes:


Ionian (major) : C
Dorian          : D
Phrygian       : E
Lydian          : F
Mixolydian      : G
Aeolian (minor) : A
Locrian         : B


Phil has given me permission and I'm hoping to have a slightly modified (so as not to read as a Barfly help file) version of his text at folkinfo as a reference within the next couple of months.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:20 AM

Remember--when using Jon's keys above, START on that note and use the white keys of the piano only. The key Jon gives is NOT the key signature.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:21 AM

See also this thread.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:38 AM

And for those that want the easy verion of a Pentatonic scale - just use the black notes on the piano! You can use any two or more notes and never play a discord.
I love pentatonic songs.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:39 AM

Ooops, that should be version.
Sorry.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:54 AM

No, not the key signature. It is just an explanation of how the modes are formed, i.e. what the intervals between the notes are for each mode, since only the white keys are used.

So:

C Ionian (major)= C D E F G A B C
(you already know that this key shares its notes with it's relative minor key--A minor (A is 3 places to the left of C on the circle of fifths))

C Myxolydian (major with flatted 7th) = C D E F G A Bb C
(notice that this key has the same notes in its scale as the key 1 place to the left on the circle of fifths--the key of F major/also D minor)

C Aeolian (natural minor)= C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
(notice that this key (Cm) has the same notes as its relative major key, 4 places to the right on the circle---the key of E major)

C Dorian (minor with sharped 6th) = C D Eb F G A Bb C
(notice that this key shares it's notes with the one 3 places to the left on the circle--Bb major/ also G minor)

C Phrygian (minor with flatted 2nd) = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
(notice that this key shares it's notes with the one 4 places to the left on the circle--Ab major/also F minor)

C Pentatonic = C D E G A

C Pentatonic Minor = C Eb F G Bb C


Sorry, I screwed up above. The Pentatonic scale leaves out the 4th, not the 3rd, from the regular major scale. Hence, there IS a major/minor feel to it. The third in the C scale is E. When it's flatted to Eb, the chord is minor.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 01:09 AM

You are doing much better than me Little Robyn. I can't recognise much beyond major/minor/mix at the moment but am trying hard...

We use abc to notate music at folkinfo and, unlike conventional notation which just shows sharps and flats, abc allows you to state the mode in the key (K:) header, e.g. K:Gmix (or K:Gmixolydian) is a valid key. Although K:C would produce the same "printed score" output as K:Gmix, we are trying to indicate the (or with gapped scales, a) correct mode in the abc.

Fortunatley, there are friendly helpful people who understand modes far better than I, and no-one gets excited when mistakes are made or even expects everyone to get it right.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Mudlark
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:24 AM

Is there really an Enigmatic mode...in music I mean? I've never heard of it but it sounds intriguing...and a little mysterious...


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:47 PM

Mudlark, the Enigmatic Scale is C-Db-E-F#-G#A#-B-C--

The names of the "Greek modes" come to us by way of Boethius, who wrote in the fifth and sixth centuries, and who said that they were named for the cities where they originated. However, the modal system was actually medieval and isn't the same as the system that the ancient Greeks used(and that he decscribed).

All talk about the "Greek Modes" tends to get confused really quickly because the terms are used in four different areas of music, and for very different reasons-

First: As a set of rules for Medeval Church Choral music

Second: To decribed a the use of some of those elements in classical composed music from the 19th century on

Third: As devices for describing scales found in folk music

Fourth: As material for progressive jazz improvisation--


It is worth noting that there are many, many scales that have been used in one place or another, and many, many, more that are theoretically possible-- Arabic classical music formally decribes something like 160 scales--and, when you take into account the use of untempered scales(scales where the half steps and whole steps are irregular), there may be even more than that used in Anglo-American music--

MTed


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM

I'm gonna have to put these into Noteworthy to see what the different ones SOUND like...


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 01:23 PM

just for my stupidity's sake - can anyone tell me (using examples such as cluin or guest 12:47 pm ) what would form the c-lydian and c-locrian scales?


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 01:59 PM

A "real" locrian scale would actually only begin on B and a "real" lydian would only begin on F--other than that, the equivalent Lydian would be C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C( the notes in an F major scale), and Locrian would be C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C( the notes in a Db scale)--

MTed


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM

Danke MTed! (And I apologize for not seeing your signature in the earlier post.)

So what is the difference between Lydian and Myxolydian; and between Locrian and Phrygian? They have the same intervals, yes?


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 02:31 PM

No, actually the notes of C Lydian would consist of C D E F# G A B C (same notes as G major scale).

And C Locrian would have the notes C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C (so all notes are flatted except the tonic and the 4th, and the tonic chord, the C chord consisting of these notes would be a C diminished chord). It's a strange one, neither major nor minor. Not used much in Western music, but it is an important part of Japanese and Hindu music.

The overall mood of these modes can often be heard better by playing the main chords of the scale, C, F and G, but altering the notes of these chords to fit within the scales of that modes.

It's pretty easy to get confused with this stuff, since modes and scales are NOT the same thing. The modes determine only where the intervals occur, note the notes themselves. Luckily, I have a book to keep it straight. And, like stated above, there's only actually a couple of them most of us need to understand anyway, The Ionic, the Aeolian, and the Myxolydian, for the most part. In other words, the natural major scale, the natural minor scale and the major with a flatted 7th.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: jimmyt
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM

For a simple way of establishing the pentatonic scale (cluin spoke of) go to the piano, playing from F#, the ascending black keys up to and includingD#


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 02:52 PM

Then of course there's the Blues scale...


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 02:55 PM

They are not named after towns but after regions of (then) Greece. Some of these regions (Lydia, Phrygia) are now in Turkey.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:20 PM

The Locrian scale goes from B to B on the white keys:
B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C,
the intervals are:
H/W/W/H/W/W/W
(H=Half Step W=Whole step),
so, starting on a C, it would be:
C/Db/Eb/F/Gb/Ab/Bb/C

The Phrygian scale goes from E to E on the white keys:
EF G A BC D E
so the intervals are:
H/W/W/W/H/W/W
so starting on C, it would be:

C/Db/Eb/F/G/Ab/Bb/C-


Both scales have a flatted second, minor third. flatted sixth and flatted seventh, but the Locrian scale has a flatted fifth step -while the Phrygian has a perfect fifth step--

The Locrian scale's tonic chord is the dreaded "devil's triad"C-Eb-Gb, or diminished chord, rather than a major or minor chord, like the other modal scales have, which makes it a difficult scale to do much with--

The Mixoydian is a major scale with a flatted 7th(like a C with a Bb instead of a B) and Lydian is a major scale with a raised 4th(F# instead of F)-

This will probably take a bit of thought to absorb, since it took me the better part of the last hour to write out an explanation, and I (at least supposedly) understand it;-)


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:29 PM

h'okay - I think I understand - typos confused me in the first set you gave; "G" instead of "Gb" in your example of Locrian - and the sharp missing from the Lydian.

I am beginning to understand some of this stuff intellectually - now if I could figger out how to recognize the d*mn notes when I HEAR them...


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:51 PM

Try playing the tonic, IV and V chords of each mode to get the feel (again sticking with C as the tonic):


for C Ionian: C major, F major, G major

for C Dorian: C minor, F major, G minor

for C Phrygian: C minor, F minor, G diminished

for C Lydian: C major, F# diminished, G major

for C Myxolydian: C major, F major, G minor (or Bb major)

For C Aeolian: C minor, F minor, G minor

For C Aeolian: C diminished, F minor, Gb major


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:53 PM

Sorry to have duplicated others posts, but I was writing while others were posting, and didn't see their posts til after--also sorry for misposting the lydian scale, (I really do know the difference, so please don't tell Dr. Harder)--

The Dorian scale is very important in Jazz, because it fits over a dominant chord--


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:54 PM

Whoops, the last one should be C Locrian.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:56 PM

This is a bit of a mindfuck, isn't it, MTed. ;)

Hell, I might even really learn it someday (if I wasn't math dyslexic).


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:10 PM

A good way to approach the memorization of modes would be to assign numbers instead of note labels to the tones of the modes. The sharps and flats would be altered from the IONIAN or major scale.

IE:

IONIAN   1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 (Although Ionian may have been a gapped scale without the 7th.

DORIAN    1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7,8

PHRYGIAN   1,b2,3,4,5,b6,b7,8

LYDIAN    1,2,3,#4,5,6,7,8

MYXOLYDIAN   1,2,3,4,5,6,b7,8

AEOLIAN


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:19 PM

AEOLIAN    1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7,8

LOCHRYIAN (A theoretical mode...not generally found applied to songs in antiquity

          1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7,8

The idea of modes being applicable to folk music is theoretical and speculative. You can't prove or disprove it. Sharp applied it to Anglo-American folk music.

An interesting aspect would be the harmonic progressions

IONIAN    I, IV, V (and more modern...V7)
DORIAN    Im,IV
PHRYGIAN   Im,bII or Im,bVIIm
LYDIAN    I,II
MYXOLYDIAN I,bVII or I,Vm
AEOLIAN    Im,bVII or Im,Vm
LOCHRYAN   Theoretical but you could harmonize it with jazz changes


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:19 PM

The chord changes don't necessarily work the same way with modes as they do for diatonic scales--it really depends on what kind of music you are playing as to what the changes(if any) will be--


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:24 PM

LOCHRYAN
Idim,bII but not practical for folk music.

There are variations of all of these modes such as Hungarian Lydian and Slavic Phrygian....there are a lot of scale books on the market that would enumerate them.

I guess Ted is right. Boethius. But they were perpetuated by the Catholic Church in their liturgical music.

For the best ear-training and memorization...sing 'em.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:28 PM

As the GUEST mentioned, the idea that our folk melodies have evolved from the Eight Church Modes is speculative--I checked the link above, and it points out that the Greek Church Modes were not universally used:

>The Frankish "Gregorian" chant is not the only form of Western
>Plainchant, although it has since supplanted all but the Milanese
>"Ambrosian" chant, which is still sung in Milan today. Before the
>triumph of "Gregorian" chant, however, there was a variety of Western >chant traditions, including Old Beneventan, Milanese "Ambrosian", Old >Spanish "Mozarabic", Gallican and Old Roman. Of these only the
Frankish "Gregorian" chant adopted the theoretical system of eight modes.

It seems just as reasonable to guess that these other chant traditions could have been sources for our folk melodies--or, even to suppose that folk melodies were used to create the church music in the first place, and the the "theory" was created to describe the music--

Anyway, as to the chords, we know that chord accompaniments were added to folk melodies relatively recently, and that the melodies were often changed from modal to major or minor to make this easier--even still, for Locrian melodies, you can use the II chord as you would a dominant, and resolve it to the VI7--with a B Locrian scale, you'd use C and G7, but end your phrase on the G7--


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: TIA
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:42 PM

Cluin - if it's not too much trouble could you list the chords for the key of G in the same fashion you did for C in your 03:51 PM post? That was very useful. Everyone else has been tremendously useful too, and yes, it is a mind F---, but clearer now than before. Thanks!


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: MikeOQuinn
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:15 AM

Heh... *remembers his Music Theory class a few years ago*

Try having a teacher tell you to demonstrate the effect each mode has on a fixed melody. (I picked 'Mary Had A Little Lamb.' It sounds downright scary in Locrian)

As a sidenote, if you can think about chords by using numbers (it's how I learned, but I'm told that many people don't do this), there's another way to remember which modes are major/minor sounding.

Start with Ionian mode (standard, vanilla major scale). I'll use C in my example. The chords go like this:

I - C Major (tonic)
ii - D Minor
iii - E Minor
IV - F Major
V - G Major
vi - A Minor (relative minor)
vii° - B Diminished

Then compare that to a list of the modes, in order.

Ionian - Major-sounding (natural major scale)
Dorian - Minor-sounding
Phrygian - Minor-sounding
Lydian - Major-sounding
Mixolydian - Major-sounding
Aeolian - Minor-sounding (natural minor scale)
Locrian - Diminished-sounding

See the similarities? (Has helped me a lot when someone pulls a piece I've never heard and says "It's in key of x, Mixolydian mode!" Thought process: "Okay, that mode is the ... fifth one down... that's the ... dominant chord... piece will be ... predominantly major... I think...?") Works most of the time.

As part of our research, we got to analyze an old church piece written in each of these modes, except Locrian (we used a modern piece for that one). Turns out, the Church banned the use of Locrian mode as a tool of the devil, because harmonizing within it has so many tri-tones (tones as far apart as C and F# on the keyboard played in harmony; same tone used in train whistles and - though arpeggiated - in the 'Simpsons' theme music) and dissonance.

All that being said, modes still throw me off when I'm learning a song. For some reason, when I see "Fb" as a note on a sheet of musuc, I get confused. Trying to anticipate chords in a modal (not Aeolian or Ionian) piece is also difficult when you're used to playing in one of those two. I've been through 3 years of Music Theory and who knows how long of playing modal pieces, and I still learn something new with every thread created about these nasty buggers created just to make folk singers'/musicians' (not that singers aren't musicians, just that 'players' didn't sound right) jobs harder.

Hope some of that helped! If I've confused anyone, or if you want me to pull out my textbooks for a better/more detailed explanation, feel free to PM me!
-J


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:51 AM

TIA, you can do it for yourself easily. Just transpose the chords.

The tonic, IV, and V notes of the G scale are G, C, and D.Wherever you see a C above, replace it with the G. Wherever you see the F above, replace it with the C. Etc. So...

for G Ionian: G major, C major, D major
for G Dorian: G minor, C major, D minor...

and so on. (the other chord, corresponding with the Bb major in the C Myxoldian would of course be F major in G Myxo.)


But note also how with every step to the right on the Circle of Fifths, another # is added to the scale ( in the Major Scale(Ionian mode)).

Keys: C=no#, G=1#, D=2#, A=3#, E=4#, B=5#...

And the # added is always to the 7th note of each new scale. The previous #s are retained. i.e.:

Key of C: C D E F G A B C   (no#)
Key of G: G A B C D E F# G   (1#)
Key of D: D E F# G A B C# D   (2#)...
Key of A: A B C# D E F# G# A
Key of E: E F# G# A B C# D# E
Key of B: B C# D# E F# G# A# B

Whereas, when you go to the left on the Circle, it is the 4th note of the scale that is the new one flatted:

Keys: C=no b, F=1b, Bb=2b#, Eb=3b, Ab=4b, Db=5b...

Key of C: C D E F G A B C   (no b)
Key of F: F G A Bb C D E F   (1b)
Key of Bb: Bb C D Eb F G A Bb   (2b)...
Key of Eb: Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

Notice another trivial pattern there?

All this theory kinda gives me a headache though. It's the kind of stuff you learn just to forget, so you can get down to actually playing music.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:11 AM

I just noticed another screw-up above. A is 3 places to the right (not left) of C on the Circle.

By the way, there is a good explanation of the Circle of Fifths at:

http://www.mikemurphy.net/GuitarLessons/lessons/lesson18.htm


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Benjamin
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:31 PM

What I was taught (and haven't seen it put quite like this in this thread) is that the names we use for the modes were orginally used for by the Greeks for their modes (which were appearently based on a quarter tone system). The modes we have today however, aren't related in any except by name to the original Greek modes. The reason the modes all can be played on white keys is that when they were created, the black keys didn't exist. If you started on F, you played or sung Lydian. At least this is what was taught in music theory and music history classes.
Ionian is now Major and Aeolian is minor.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: Kaleea
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:53 AM

By golly, I think there's more here than I ever had to learn in music school! I our Mus History & Mus Theory profs were real sticklers for thoroughness, too! My fav part was the tri-tone. Everytime I hear the old european-type ambulance siren while watching a film, I think of old popes & cardinals & priests turning over in their graves.


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: MikeOQuinn
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:25 AM

Kaleea: In my case, it's the theme from the TV show The Simpsons that smacks me with tri-tone-ness. That, and every time my 8-year-old nephew goes to play the piano.

(Okay, so the nephey thing is my fault for telling him it was a good way to annoy his mother, in an effort to make learning the keyboard fun. She didn't think that was too cute. Stacked minor seconds for chords tend to have the same effect.)

For fun with Tri-tones, find a piano and play C, E, F#, G, A#, and C# (the C# can be the one right above the low C, but this way produces a nicer effect, imho). There, you have a C Major chord and the resulting tri-tones from each note within the chord (producing an F# Major chord, one might add). Guaranteed to drive anyone batty after just 30 seconds!

Best wishes, all.
-J


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: AKS
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 06:29 AM

And to get the 'real mood' out of them, the modes should be played on untempered tunings, am I correct?

AKS


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Subject: RE: Who Named the Modes?
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:59 PM

There is a lot of information about modes and chords that is a bit misleading--hope I don't make things more confusing-

The big point is that in modal music there are no chords--instead there can drones(bagpipes, applalachian dulcimer, banjo, and all those Middle Eastern and Balkan instruments, such as tambura, baglama, saz, traditionally are set up to play modal music, and have one or more drone strings or pipes)--Often consists only of the melody, either played or sung by a single voice or in unison with other voices or instruments--

The chords and chord progressions mentioned above really are a modernization of the music, and bring it into the realm of even tempered, diatonic, major/minor, circle of fifths music--

Middle Eastern and Balkan music, which have traditionally been modal music, have moved into using the Western Chords, even while keeping their traditional scales--

All of this mixing of traditional modal with modern chordal sounds pretty good, but it makes the theoretical explanations(which are always a bit oblique) even more difficult--


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