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PEL : Hardcopy Petition

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Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 08:29 AM
GUEST 06 Jan 03 - 08:53 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 09:04 AM
GUEST 06 Jan 03 - 09:11 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 09:23 AM
GUEST 06 Jan 03 - 09:35 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 09:53 AM
treewind 06 Jan 03 - 10:00 AM
GUEST 06 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 10:04 AM
GUEST 06 Jan 03 - 10:09 AM
Pied Piper 06 Jan 03 - 10:14 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 10:16 AM
GUEST 06 Jan 03 - 10:20 AM
Pied Piper 06 Jan 03 - 10:40 AM
Pied Piper 06 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM
GUEST 06 Jan 03 - 11:08 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 11:31 AM
Willa 06 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM
Pied Piper 06 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM
Richard Bridge 06 Jan 03 - 06:44 PM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 07:58 PM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 03:54 AM
fiddler 07 Jan 03 - 04:07 AM
Nemesis 07 Jan 03 - 04:28 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 04:30 AM
DMcG 07 Jan 03 - 04:35 AM
fiddler 07 Jan 03 - 04:43 AM
The Shambles 07 Jan 03 - 06:15 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 07:04 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 08:12 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 09:40 AM
Nemesis 08 Jan 03 - 07:19 AM
Mr Happy 08 Jan 03 - 11:43 AM
Mr Happy 09 Jan 03 - 03:43 AM
Mr Happy 10 Jan 03 - 10:47 AM
Mr Happy 13 Jan 03 - 03:00 AM
Mr Happy 14 Jan 03 - 09:23 PM
Mr Happy 20 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM
clansfolk 20 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM
Mr Happy 04 Feb 03 - 06:58 AM
Mr Happy 10 Feb 03 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Loqui 10 Feb 03 - 07:34 PM
Mr Happy 17 Feb 03 - 11:20 AM
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Subject: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:29 AM

I downloaded some hardcopy petition forms to collect names from various folk clubs, singarounds, & music sessions I attend.

These are good to support get from petitioners with no emails or online access.

Hard copy petition forms can be downloaded & printed from

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lancashirefolk/Petition/PETITION./doc

They can be forwarded direct to:

Graham Dixon – 77 Hayfield Ave – Hoghton – Lancs. PR5 0AX
Before 15th March please.


Please feel free to do this for any folk clubs, sessions, singarounds, or other music/dance events you may attend.


Also support from non-UK petitioners in USA & other supporters overseas will be most valuable.

The online petition is at www.musiclovers.ukart.com

Cheers,

Mr Happy


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:53 AM

Mr Happy's link is wrong (inevitable I suppose) since he found the need to start a new thread by copy and pasting something that he'd already said in another thread.

What you and Shambles hope to achieve by flooding people with the same messages is beyond me. Most people would call it spamming, and it cannot do a good cause any good


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 09:04 AM

guest,

I suggest you think more carefully before posting trite, unhelpful remarks like those.

To my mind the more people who know what the available options are to SUPPORT the cause, there will be a greater likelihood of them spreading the word.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 09:11 AM

Trite: No longer novel or fresh; stale through constant use or repetition

And I'm the one being trite? OK....


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 09:23 AM

guest,

yeh, TRITE & UNHELPFUL!

you're not alone in this approach- i've noticed other snide comments on the other pel threads.

if you & your ilk want to slag off shambles or me on here, you're free to do so but you'll be laughing the other side of your face when live music, song, dancing is forbidden 'any place' including your own home.

don't you realise how fervently all true folkies et al are giving their HELP & SUPPORT to this cause?


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 09:35 AM

Mr Happy,

I think that I'm a 'true folkie' (whatever that means).

I have written several times to my MP, to several newspapers, signed the petition and have told everyone I know about the issue and what they might do.

However, I find the scare tactics of saying that music, song, dancing [will be]forbidden a little disconcerting. They won't be forbidden at all. Don't be so stupid.

My posts above, merely make the point that inundating people over and over gain with the same message, is more likely to disenchant them than anything else.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 09:53 AM

guest,


'However, I find the scare tactics of saying that music, song, dancing [will be]forbidden a little disconcerting. They won't be forbidden at all. Don't be so stupid.'

you think so- you couldn't have read the proposals in detail.

i mean why do over 20,000+ people have such a great fear of the proposed legislation?

they're not burying their heads in the sand!

i believe it right to spread information in as many directions as possible.

considering there's been scarcely any mention of this issue in the popular media, don't you agree that it's better to tell people about it, more than once is better than not at all.

armed with my hardcopy petitions, i was at a singaround in wallasey, merseyside last week. scarcely any of the other folkies there knew anything about the pel issue.

i explained it to them & collected over 20 signatures.


if its any help to enhance your understanding of what's involved have a look at the musicians union's latest statements.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: treewind
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:00 AM

You would have thought that everybody knew about the petitions by December 20, after endless postings by Shambles and others to many different forums (one newsgroup and 2 email lists as well as MudCat, that I know of)...

And yet, since that date the number of signatures on the online petition has doubled from 10,000 to 20,000. So, since that date, it seems that quite a few people have found out about it who apparently didn't know before.

As for "they won't be forbidden at all" that's irrelevant and misleading pedantry. The idea that one has to be involved with ANY licencing regulations at all in order specifically to make live music is utterly outrageous.

By "specifically" I mean that live music needs no further regulation beyond that provided already by existing legislation: numbers limits, noise, fire and building regulations, alcohol licencing laws etc. etc.

This is seriously scary stuff (as in violation of human rights). There are still people who don't know and they need to know.

Don't assume because you know about it everyone else does.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM

I've have read the proposals in detail, but 'licencable' is very different from 'illegal'

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully in favour of the campaign.

I just think that 'spamming' is more likely to piss people off than anything


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:04 AM

treewind/Anahata,

thanks for that- i wish i'd said what you said,

'Don't assume because you know about it everyone else does.'

no apologies for another repeat.

cheers,

mr h


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:09 AM

idiot


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Pied Piper
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:14 AM

Yet another gutless anonymous guest.
If they're not even prepared to think up a Nome deplume to be obnoxious with just ignore them.
Keep up the good work.
All the best for the New Year PP.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:16 AM

thanks pp,

have you got hard ones for your favourite places? 8-]


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:20 AM

There's non so deaf as will not hear...


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Pied Piper
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:40 AM

No not yet Mr Happy, but I've been showing people the Hobgoblin letter which sums things up pretty well, and (unlike guest) tonight I'll be braking the present Law and defending my right to celebrate my roots music without interference from the local Governments cultural Gouleiters.
PP


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Pied Piper
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM

And non so blind as won't see.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:08 AM

that would be 'breaking', I think, PP

And non so blind as won't see. Well said, Mr Happy is somewhat myopic.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:31 AM

guest,

you say above:


'Don't get me wrong, I'm fully in favour of the campaign.'

do you know, you've a very odd way of reinforcing your expression of support for the cause.

my intention like that of others is to spread the word as widely as possible about this abomination, this outrageous onslaught on our civil/human rights & freedom of expression in England & Wales.

of all the ways of gaining sympathy & support to fight this threat, yours seems the least likely.

after all, what do you expect to gain by name calling & personal attacks?

please do something useful & constructive if you consider yourself a 'folkie'.

not everyone has email/online access & most people [including many publicans] haven't heard the PEL arguments nor realise the implications.


print out some hardcopy petitions & get out there- collect names!


cheers,

Mr Happy


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Willa
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Mr H
I can't get the address you gave above to work. Can you please check the details?


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Pied Piper
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM

Oh anonymous one.
You mean I spelt "Gouleiters" correctly!!.
If you give me your E-mail address I'll send you all my posts for spell checking.
Ner Ner Na Ner Ner
PP


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 06:44 PM

Dear Guest

I have been out lecturing on constitutional and administrative law while this was developing. The distinction you make between licenseable and illegal is unsound. The English revolution of 1689 stemmed in part from the Stuart desire to rule by proclamation, and the Licensing Bill regime will result in all public entertainment being illegal unless licensed, and the licensing regime being governed by ministerial "guidelines" changeable on a whim apparently without any and certainly without effective parliamentary scrutiny.

Will despots ever change?

A client has put it to me that this government must be forced to listen. I fear that is true. Merely to label a form of mass protest as "spamming" is in no way of rational assistance to determine whether it is justifiable or likely to be effective.

There is a large freedom of speech (human rights) issue here. That is I think more important than whether bulk messaging on this issue is "spam" - which definitionally I think it is not since it is largely not done with a commercial purpose.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 07:58 PM

Thanks for support from above & apologies my links didn't work.

The online petition is at www.musiclovers.ukart.com & the hard copy page can be got from there.

cheers,

mr h


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 03:54 AM

23247 now!

off 2 gather more names at ship vic sesh in chester 2nite.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: fiddler
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:07 AM

Guest may have been obnoxious (probably spleed wrong) but I like this thread. Some good facts have appeared.

I am spreading the word as far as possible.

Remember it is not just folk music that will be hit!

I feel I have a moral duty to get the word out as far as possible, the fact that I can't just go and play is a serious infringement of my rights. Others can't go and sing.

think of the furthewr implications the school socials, The festival singaround in pubs that are not currently licenced - the list I assure you goes on and on and on.

Keep up the good work and stay happy.

A

PS Two things: -
1)Can we possibly quit the bikkering -
2) It can't surely be spam, the thread is labelled and whoever reads it chooses out of may other threads, from a site they chose to look at, to actually look at this thread. It doesn't arrive uninvited in my inbox - does it in Yours?


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Nemesis
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:28 AM

Hear! Hear!

I second the quit bickering plea - "divide and rule" is a government tactic surely most of us can remember?

I do wish however there was a neatly synopsised account (say 1-2 paragraphs) of this that could be be disseminated for info .. maybe there is? It is a a little hard to pick out pertinent points to explain to someone who doesn't know anything about it .. but nonetheless since I have been attempting to do so it has become apparent from the unprecedented response via my mailing lists in the last couple of days that still people are unaware.

Please direct our energies to letting people know about this rather than arguing about who has the greater moral ascendency?


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:30 AM

?


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:35 AM

At the meeting in the Union Chapel yesterday, there was a speaker from the Arts Council who pointed out that art exhibitions could be trapped by this bill as well. It's certainly the case that any work based on film IS covered.

Its not just music that is affected!


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: fiddler
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:43 AM

WOW!!!!!

and WOW again!

A


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:15 AM

I do wish however there was a neatly synopsised account (say 1-2 paragraphs) of this that could be be disseminated for info .. maybe there is?

Try the stuff Hamish as just put on the MU site.

http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/two_in_a_bar01.shtml


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:04 AM

In synopsis the entertainment part of the bill says this:-

"Regulated entertainment means the provision of plays, live and recorded music, dance or anything similar, to entertain an audience, in any place, (by any number of people), where the entertainment is in any way public, or for a club, or for payment with a view to profit by the organiser or venue, even if the event is for a charity."
"Religious services, and events in moving vehicles are exempt."


'Live & Recorded music'?

i thought that TV's etc didn't require a PEL- what about the recorded music playing on the TV?


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 08:12 AM

fiddler,

i'm puzzled why you directed these comments to me:

'PS Two things: -
1)Can we possibly quit the bikkering -
2) It can't surely be spam, the thread is labelled and whoever reads it chooses out of may other threads, from a site they chose to look at, to actually look at this thread. It doesn't arrive uninvited in my inbox - does it in Yours?'

after all, i started this thread & didn't anticipate anonymous 'guests' [perhaps govt. dirty tricks dept agents provocateurs] making personal attacks.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 09:40 AM

The hardcopy petition forms can be got from:


http://www.musiclovers.ukart.com/

and there's a user friendly 'protest flier' which can be circulated
from here:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.lawton/


hope this is useful, i'll be spreading the word with these tonight & rest of week[s]

cheers,

mr h


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Nemesis
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:19 AM

Well, I applaud Mr Happy for putting a thread up entitled "Hard Copy" a straight forward reference to the contents of posts is extremely useful.. I've spent 6 hours this morning buggaring about cross referring between various sites on this subject and a straight forward ref. is extremely useful.

Shambles.. thanks for that .. have seen that -- but I still think it's not synopsied enough for the average Joe Public ... we can happily wade through .. but to grab the attention of someone on the street to get them to sign a petition ..

actually .. I think what we plan to do is probably easier - street theatre ... muscians playing in the high street being attacked and "stopped" by actors waving "NEW LICENSING BILL" big sticks .. do this on a continual loop surely it's gonna attract some attention and people'll just sign whatever we wave under their noses!!


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 11:43 AM

26917 Total Signatures to online petition + tremendous response so far to hardcopy one.

Also, using James Lawton's explanatory flier has been most useful as an aid to 'priming' venue 'performers' & audiences to give information about the PEL issue & its consequences for all & sundry, prior to them adding their names to the petition.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.lawton/


regards to all supporters,

'fight the good fight, with all thy might'

cheers,

Mr Happy


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:43 AM

Another 30+ names to hardcopy petition last night from Mr Happy's music & song session, including 4 members of Chester Licensed Victuallers Association, to add to 27933 Total Signatures to online petition.

Since there seems general unawareness among many publicans of the issues & implications of the PEL proposals, I feel it would be constructive for interested parties to contact their local Licensed Victuallers Associations (& perhaps the breweries too) to inform them about it & thereby gather further support for 'the cause'.

regards,

mr h


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:47 AM

31189 & rising!
31189 & rising!


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:00 AM

34299 Total Signatures online + another 30 or so from WESS Folk Club in Wrexham on Friday.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 09:23 PM

37916 Total Signatures + 17 more on hard copy in ship vic session in chester tonight!


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM

45658 Total Signatures + 32 more hardcopy from Gardners Session, Chester


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: clansfolk
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM

The more the word spreads the better - no point saying "I didn't know or I would have done something" once the propsal go through!!

Everyday I have spoken with people in various sections of the industry and entertainment world who had no idea what the propsals were and how they could affect them - very few say "Oh I knew about that"

Weds 30th we will be having a "Friendly Demo" at Fleetwood Lancashire (there is a thread on this topic - so I'll say no more!)when even more people will get to know hopefully with the aid of Radio Lancashire.

There is also a MSN Group set up with info and a place for comments, requests and problems you may be having - there's also copies of the documents for the hard copy petition and all the relivant links.

Join it if you feel you can help or want to keep up to date with whats going on - the choice is up to you.

MSN PEL UK group - JOIN



Keep spreading the word and putting the presure on


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:58 AM

A new group called 'Save Live Music!' has been established to campaign against the Government's proposed Licensing Bill. Join the discussion list to hear about or help plan future protests by sending a blank email to savelivemusic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Please forward this to anyone who might be interested.

For more informationemailsavelivemusic@yahoo.co.uk
or call 07810 192 905.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:25 PM

for fliers, posters etc

http://www.does4you.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: GUEST,Loqui
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:34 PM

Thanks for the info in this thread. As a Scot I am not directly affected yet. I think that this is the most deplorable piece of restrictive legislation that I have ever read and serves no purpose whatsoever. I hope you don't mind a Jock signing the petition.


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Subject: RE: PEL : Hardcopy Petition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:20 AM

i've been getting support from work colleagues & others o/s of the folk/music scene too, & taking down their particulars for my hard copies.

there's still many, many people totally unaware of the issue, though some have heard bits about longer pub opening hours.

also the various flyers & leaflets are still proving their worth for spreading the news.


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