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BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?

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GUEST,Moishe Pipik 22 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM
Mr Happy 22 Nov 02 - 09:21 AM
Mr Happy 22 Nov 02 - 09:59 AM
Steve Parkes 22 Nov 02 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 22 Nov 02 - 10:52 AM
AggieD 22 Nov 02 - 11:10 AM
Giac 22 Nov 02 - 11:16 AM
DonMeixner 22 Nov 02 - 11:19 AM
Skipjack K8 22 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 02 - 01:21 PM
Mudlark 22 Nov 02 - 01:48 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 02 - 02:05 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM
NicoleC 22 Nov 02 - 02:49 PM
Ireland 22 Nov 02 - 03:44 PM
Schantieman 22 Nov 02 - 03:55 PM
GUEST,C. Jorgenson 22 Nov 02 - 04:19 PM
Ireland 22 Nov 02 - 04:25 PM
Joe_F 22 Nov 02 - 04:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 02 - 05:25 PM
RangerSteve 22 Nov 02 - 05:40 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 02 - 05:56 PM
artbrooks 22 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM
NicoleC 23 Nov 02 - 01:46 AM
Art Thieme 23 Nov 02 - 01:59 AM
ballpienhammer 23 Nov 02 - 06:36 AM
53 23 Nov 02 - 08:45 AM
Ebbie 23 Nov 02 - 04:19 PM
Shifter 23 Nov 02 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,The Jews 23 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM
Genie 24 Nov 02 - 04:27 AM
Troll 24 Nov 02 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 24 Nov 02 - 08:37 AM
AggieD 24 Nov 02 - 09:07 AM
Ireland 24 Nov 02 - 10:25 AM
saulgoldie 24 Nov 02 - 11:50 AM
moineau nordique 24 Nov 02 - 12:50 PM
Genie 24 Nov 02 - 01:08 PM
Mr Happy 24 Nov 02 - 03:02 PM
The Pooka 25 Nov 02 - 12:20 AM
Seamus Kennedy 25 Nov 02 - 02:35 AM
Seamus Kennedy 25 Nov 02 - 02:37 AM
Genie 25 Nov 02 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Tom Hamilton 25 Nov 02 - 05:36 AM
AggieD 25 Nov 02 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 25 Nov 02 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 25 Nov 02 - 11:59 AM
NicoleC 25 Nov 02 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 25 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM
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Subject: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Moishe Pipik
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM

Bob Dylan

Steve Goodman

Simon & Garfunkel

Carole King

Janis Ian

Phil Ochs

Ramblin' Jack Elliott

Search for "done for us" threads


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:21 AM

jesus

the lost tribes

israel

yehudi menuhuin

karl marx

harpo marx

chico marx

beppo marx

marx & spencers

barbara streisand

groucho marx

benjamin disraeli

christmas

easter


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:59 AM

kosher bailey?


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 10:20 AM

You had to go and spoil it, didn't you!


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 10:52 AM

The creation of the film studio system and, subsequently, what became today's Hollywood, both good & bad.
( re: "An Empire of Their Own" by Neil Gabler )
The Goldwyns, Louis B. Mayer, the Zanucks, warner Brothers,etc.
Now Dreamworks SKG ( Spielberg,Katzenburg ,& Geffen )
Legendary Rock Concert promoter and owner of the filmore East & West, as characteriszed by his playing himself in his cameo role in "Apocalypse Now" ( 'member the Playboy helicopter and dem go-go dancing bunnies? )


Being a New Yawker I can mention the Publishing , Advertisng ,and Television industries including now cable thanks to the inarguable ownerships and corporate conglomerate governance by the likes of Barry Diller , Micheal Eisner ( Disney/ABC ) and formerly of Time/Warner Jerry Levin .
William Pailey, the architect of CBS News, then bought, cost-cut, news talent -gutted , and then sold by N.Y. billioniare Larry Tisch
NBC was Sarnof.
The New York Times owned by the Schuleburg family.

Lest we forget Steve Ruebel & Schacht whom created "Studio54"
and then indicted for tax evasion. I won't go into their lawyer , famed MacCarthy shill Roy "Citizen Cohen".

Fashion industry. Did you know toney Ralph Lauren's given name was Raplh Lipschitz ( only in America ).Throw in Calvin Klein, Donna Karan and then throw in the attendent chic-chic rag shops. Saks 5th Avenue being the one brand name most folks would recognize.

Some of the greatest Art Museums & Galleries in the world based in NY of which my personal favorite is the Guggenheim though not for most of the modernist art but for the single most unque sculpture that is the building itself designed by one of my favorite American icons, Frank Lloyd Wright.
Real Estate would be a whole library of books ; most famous of which is the Pulitzer Prize winning biography by Robert Caro of Robert Moses entitled "The Power Broker" .
So, summing up , the N.Y. Jewish immigrants gave the us a lot of what is known as New Yawk , New Yawk.

Take it or leave it.

Oh, Yeah, honorable mention to Ben & Jerry's ice cream.
They make up for the obnoxious phoneies Abby Hoffman & Jerry Rubin were.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: AggieD
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:10 AM

Chicken soup - the Jewish penicillin

Bagels

Hamburgers(Jewish immigrants took minced beef,onions etc, made it into a type of burger,fried it & ate it between 2 slices of bread)

Salt Beef (Corned Beef in the US) & dill pickles in sandwiches

Cold fried fish in Matzo meal - sounds disgusting but tastes out of this world.

I could go on for hours.

Aggie


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Giac
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:16 AM

Mr. Meyer, who owned a dry goods store in the small, Southern town where I spent my childhood in the 1940s. He and his wife were certainly novel in their beliefs and lifestyle, in that region, in that time. They were two of the nicest people I've ever known.

Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:19 AM

Jack Kirby

Joe Simon

Wil Eisner

The Spirit

Siegel And Schuster

Superman

Captain America

The Fantastic Four

The Hulk

Spiderman

Et Al


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM

Given us somewhere to have a scrap with the Moors


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM

Leonard Cohen

Kirk Douglas

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:21 PM

Dick Greenhaus


Susan Friedman


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Mudlark
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:48 PM

And they gave my my best friend, Linda, who is coming to stay with me for 6 wks here in sunny California, an escapee from the dreariness of London. I'm on my way right now to pick her up at the airport. She doesn't sing but she's a great appreciator--I'm hoping I can get her to buy a couple of Mudcat CD's...


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:05 PM

Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Netanyahu, Henry Kissinger, Monica Lewinsky.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM

Some of the funniest jokes every told.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:49 PM

In historical terms, during the Medieval ages, the next best thing to an Arab doctor was a Jewish one... if you were more concerned about your body that your soul, of course. Many famous historical figures owed their lives to Jewish medicine, which was quite a bit less superstitious than the mainstream.

Oh course, we can also thank the Jews for both Christianity and Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:44 PM

More on Cold fried fish in Matzo meal please.

What about Edward G Robinson.
One of the best women soldiers in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Schantieman
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:55 PM

Chopped liver.


Did you hear about the Jewish woman who had two chickens?

One of them got sick - so she killed the other to make chicken soup for it.

My grandmother made the best chicken soup ever. Now my daughter's grandmother does.


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Subject: Ireland's post
From: GUEST,C. Jorgenson
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:19 PM

Ireland,

You must tell us how you concluded Edward G. Robinson was one of the best women soldiers in the world.

I always thought he was an actor. I didn't know about him being a soldier, or about his sex change.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:25 PM

Got me, See! wah! wah! he did run about in a skirt in the ten commandments though. See! See! yea yea and other sayings. Good one lol


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Joe_F
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:45 PM

According to H. L. Mencken, they revolutionized the delicatessen business & invented the ham & cheese sandwich.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:25 PM

Christianity and Islam


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: RangerSteve
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:40 PM

Food. Really good food. Chopped liver, bagels, knishes.

ANd some pretty decent people, like about 50 percent of my musical friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:56 PM

I always thought that many of McGrath of Harlow's Mudcay postings were just paraphrasing of easily found Chomskyisms.

Now I see that he also tries to pass off other Mudcatter's ideas as his own. I mean look at NicoleC's 2:49 PM post and compare it to McGrath's plagarism at 5:25 PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM

My wife.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 01:46 AM

Just call me "NoahC" ;D


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 01:59 AM

And I am on the list as well.

ART THIEME


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: ballpienhammer
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 06:36 AM

John Denver, Neil Diamond, Babs Streisand, Ischaak Perlman,


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: 53
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 08:45 AM

Gods chosen people:


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:19 PM

An aside- 53BOB, that reminds me of what Garrison Keillor has called Minnesotans: 'God's frozen people'.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Shifter
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 05:03 PM

Well a few years ago a Jew used to cut my hair and a very nice job he made of it!


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,The Jews
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM

Hey there ballpienhammer,

Where do you get off trying to pawn John Denver off as Jewish?

If ever there was a goyishe goy, it was John Denver.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Genie
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 04:27 AM

chale (challah) bread

really great cheesecake

George M. Cohan, so I'm told

gefilte fish

wonderful Yiddish words such as fakakteh, verklempt, mumser, kvetch, schmendrich, putz, chutzpeh, kibbitz

Linda Richman

Oy, vey!

*The Unicorn Song

*The Queen Of The Silver Dollar

*A Boy Named Sue (?)

Ladino music

Hanukkah guilt gelt

Israeli folk dancing

Sandy Koufax

Sigmund Freud

Albert Einstein

Karl Marx

Fiddler On The Roof

songs about dancing rabbis

Theodore Bikel

Oscar Hammerstein

Irving Berlin

George and Ira Gershwin

Sammy Kahn

Kinky Friedman

------------------

* and other songs, poems, etc. by Shel Silverstein


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 05:38 AM

KLEZMER!
My wife and son

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 08:37 AM

Just remembered the name of thew rock concert empresario/hawker ,Bill Graham ( don't know his original family name )
BTW: Bob Denver's original family name was the rather Tuetonic "Deutchendorfer".


For better of for worse they gave us J.RoberOppenheimer and Edward Teller( creator of the Hyfrogen Bomb AND Reagan's "Star Wars" space-based weaponry dream ) ; step-fathers of the age of Weapons of Mass Destruction....oh and Ethel & Julius Rosenburg.
Oh ,and lest we forget Henry Kissinger.....
and MSFT's Steve Ballmer. ( co-monopolist judged "illegal" then got off by Bush DoJ )
Speaking of over-acheivers, new candidates go to Tufts graduate Andy Fastow, recently indicted for masterminding the complex shell game corporations that are at the heart of the collapse of the infrastructure of the now infamous Enron.
Atleast when Micheal Milken was caught the only ones who lost their livelihood were the Yuppies ay collapsed Drexel Burnham

Seeing as how no one group is "immune" from the full range of human nature and you want to take pride in one's "bright shining" over-acheivers you've got to own up to what happens when the dark side holds sway to those talents as well.
A lot of innocent people are still greatly affected by the abuse of power weilded by the above mentioned .

Just speaking as a New Yawker calling 'em as I've seen 'em. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: AggieD
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 09:07 AM

The basic laws & principles of what comprises western society.

Larry Adler

Ireland, whisk an egg in a shallow bowl, spread a good 1/2" thick layer of medium matzo meal on a plate & season well with salt & pepper, dip a fillet of plaice, cod, haddock or halibut in the egg, coat the fish on both with the matzo meal by pressing it down onto the layer of matzo meal on the plate, fry in good quality, very hot vegetable (corn or sunflower) cooking oil until golden brown, drain well on kitchen paper, & leave to cool.

Anyone need a recipe for chicken soup!

Remember Jewish cooking is done to everyone's mother's recipe. Get a rooom full of Jewish women & they all have their own recipe & each one is the only one that is right!


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Ireland
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 10:25 AM

Thanks Aggie, are you the big Aggie that lives down the street? lol.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 11:50 AM

No family is perfect. Each group has its derelicts and dysfunctionals. The family of Jews is no exception. No group, not Wiccans, Eskimos, Christians, Peruveans, Unitarians, atheists, Irish, Pagans, Moslems, indigenous Americans, Lesbians, Siberians, Folkies, or trogolodytes is particularly proud of theirs. But they are inevitably a part of every family.

However, I find it gratifying that so many are weighing in with their take on "us." I am proud of our contribution and the values and ideals that we stand for. (And that is not troll bait, BTW.)


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: moineau nordique
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:50 PM

Bialys, bagels, latkes, blintzes, and noodle kugel from Katz's deli.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Genie
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 01:08 PM

How could I forget? JERRY LIEBER (and MIKE STOLLER, too, I think)!

also Carole King

And, yes, latkes, blintzes,lox and bagels, and corned beef on rye.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 03:02 PM

E.T.

steven spielberg

b good- phone home!


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:20 AM

Tom Lehrer. Albert Einstein (and a vastly disproportionate number of other top phsyicists in particular & scientists in general). Woody Allen. Allan Sherman. Mel Brooks. Barry Goldwater. (Yeah, he counts, Episcopalian or no -- see grandfather Big Mike Goldwasser; and yeah, he was important. Look around.) Similarly, Milton Friedman. (Look around.) Hannah Arendt. Abba Eban (RIP). Yitzhak Rabin.

My wife, once her conversion is completed. (Yeah, sure that counts. She couldn't Convert if They weren't There, now could she?)

As somebody said above, no Trollbait: collectively, the most brilliant & accomplished people on the face of the earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 02:35 AM

Sammy Davis, Jr.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 02:37 AM

And I'm surprised that Little Hawk hasn't weighed in with Wm. Shatner & Leonard Nimoy.

Seamus again


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Genie
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 04:10 AM

Paddy Graber (a gift from the Irish AND the Jews!).


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Tom Hamilton
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:36 AM

As one stupid British MP said as he was in Israel, he said to both Jews and Palestians, "Come on we should behave like Christains"


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: AggieD
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 06:23 AM

Ireland

I don't think I live down the street to you, how will I ever know??

Aggie


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:50 AM

(quote)
"Barry Goldwater. (Yeah, he counts, Episcopalian or no -- see grandfather Big Mike Goldwasser; "

Well, being a New Yawker, I'm curious about this Adam Sandler-esque definition of whom can be "claimed" as being Jewish. The strick definition is being born of a Jewish mother
( which , I assume ,is the reason why you've made a point of mentioning your wife's conversion; so you're childen can be condiered "legally" Jewish according to Hebrew law? )
and being raised in atleast a culturally jewish home.

I mention this because you've rekindled the memory of all the contravercy stirred up in the American jewish community over former Sect of State Madeline Albright whom , it was reported , it discovered that she was of Euro-Jewish heritage, but she said she had no memory of knowledge of her being Jewish and was raised in some other denomination for which she was vilified by some commentators; Watergate reporter/commentator Daniel Shore I remember particularly with a scathing criticism on NPRas if what she did as a crime against "her people"

This raises the issue of Nature/Nurture and the subsequent questioni of:
Is being Jewish a *race* first ( which *no* can join. Try *converting* to Japanese ) and thus bloodlines are *the* deciding factor which is suggested by the *born of a Jewish mother* requirement , or is the archetypal monotheism that is the core of their great body of beliefs, and thus their bright shining contribution to mankind , *the* determinant factor?

Furthermore if the Jews continually attribute their most accomplished uniqueness of place in the human family to their sacred beliefs as a *chosen people* ,then does that not make aetheistic, so-called *cultural Jews*, considerably *disenfranchised* from what originally made them "chosen" and , thus , reduces Jewishness to be purely based upon "tribal bloodlines" which unavoidably carries with it all of the built-in historical pathologies that have always come from a culture of "un-alloyed* human nature?


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:59 AM

(quote)
"As one stupid British MP said as he was in Israel, he said to both Jews and Palestians, "Come on we should behave like Christains"

Stupid for "whom" said it ( legacy of the debaucher Henry VIII's creation of the Chruch of England's brand of Christianity and all the Empire business that followed with it ) ,but harldy *inaccurate* when you consider that Old Testament culture of an "eye for an eye" and "fierce identity of tribalism" codified.

While often enough failed in practice by imperfect humans ,this can *not* take away from the *teachings* introduced *forgiveness* and the beatudes of which " Blessed are the Peacemakers*.

I'm sure there are those whom can quote from the Torah or the Quran where these spiritual principles are amply expressed , but current behavior representing both tribal faiths certainly have caused one to question whether these similar passges were ever written ,let alone practiced.
So ,until both sides can demonstrate the spiritually evolved expression of the shining points of principle in their respective faiths ,the statement is ,at the very least , an insult most deserved to both faiths whose principles of faith have utterly *failed* to promote anything resembling Peace .

BTW: Stupid for "whom" said it also because of the role the British Empire played in the "Great Game" of the Euro-imperialists ( led by the Brit Empire ) which created wholey artificial national constructs for the Empire's, and attendent corporate, convinience of management and advancement.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:18 PM

"So ,until both sides can demonstrate the spiritually evolved expression of the shining points of principle in their respective faiths ,the statement is ,at the very least , an insult most deserved to both faiths whose principles of faith have utterly *failed* to promote anything resembling Peace ."

Um... are you trying to say that Christianity *is* universally enlightened and peaceful?

No offense, but Christianity in practice is just as brutal and vicious and violent as any other western religion. Jesus may have practiced non-violence, but the institution based on his name certainly hasn't.

But Jesus, after all, was a product of Judaism, wasn't he?


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM

(quote)
"Um... are you trying to say that Christianity *is* universally enlightened and peaceful?"

I kinda had a feeling this "misinterpretation" would surface as it always does. If you had included a direct quote :
"While often enough failed in practice by imperfect humans ,this can *not* take away from the *teachings* , then your above question and follow-up:
(quote)
"No offense, but Christianity in practice is just as brutal and vicious and violent as any other western religion."

...would not have arisen.
BTW: No offense taken. I am certainly all too aware of the *failings* of those whom define themselves as following the *teachings* of Jesus the Christ and is ,no less ,a continual heartbreak .
However within the strict Isreali/Palestinian conflict , which is still considered a potential flashpoint triggring a *nuclear war*, the Christain quotient that collectively comprises what is "The Holy Land" is disproportionately shunted to the side and considered *collateral*at best ( witness the Bethlehem standoff ) in all of that epithet's implications. Both sides consider the Christian part as irrelevent and had best stay out of the way.
Well, that would pretty much leave the people the tribes of the Torah & Quran left to their own devies by their own concious choice, now wouldn't it?

(quote)
"But Jesus, after all, was a product of Judaism, wasn't he? "

Yes, his teachings were the next "evolutionary" advance in the spiritual approach to life that the world was given to work with ,or not .
Yes whom was summarily rejected as such and put to death as the first act of an anti-Christian *final solution* to these new "unorthodox" teachings.
Even the Roman Empire tried, with their original "fascism", a brutal *final solution*. In Rome ultimately "the state" itself was their god. from which Romans drew their cult of identity and sought to impose on the rest of the "conquorable" world ; a cult of *personality* always walks hand-in-hand woith an agnostic fascism that has replayed itself many times in Eurasia and is with us still .

All that said, what I "am" saying is that since both the higher teachings of these tribes has appaently failed to produce anything resembling a Peace worthy of representing their respecting holy teachings it was not "out of place" to suggest an alternative since it was nowhere to be found in evidence ,forget practice , one either side of that great tribal divide that "is" Jerusalem.

Let's say that it is also fair to say the world is yet "waiting" for wither faith to prove that it has the principle of Peace-making and forgiveness in the faith they so vehemently draw their identity from. Let's also say that quoting Old Testament or Jiahdic justifications for the violence kind of drowns out the better angels of those faiths.


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Mudcat time: 14 August 6:59 PM EDT

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