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BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?

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GUEST,Moishe Pipik 22 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM
Mr Happy 22 Nov 02 - 09:21 AM
Mr Happy 22 Nov 02 - 09:59 AM
Steve Parkes 22 Nov 02 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 22 Nov 02 - 10:52 AM
AggieD 22 Nov 02 - 11:10 AM
Giac 22 Nov 02 - 11:16 AM
DonMeixner 22 Nov 02 - 11:19 AM
Skipjack K8 22 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 02 - 01:21 PM
Mudlark 22 Nov 02 - 01:48 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 02 - 02:05 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM
NicoleC 22 Nov 02 - 02:49 PM
Ireland 22 Nov 02 - 03:44 PM
Schantieman 22 Nov 02 - 03:55 PM
GUEST,C. Jorgenson 22 Nov 02 - 04:19 PM
Ireland 22 Nov 02 - 04:25 PM
Joe_F 22 Nov 02 - 04:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 02 - 05:25 PM
RangerSteve 22 Nov 02 - 05:40 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 02 - 05:56 PM
artbrooks 22 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM
NicoleC 23 Nov 02 - 01:46 AM
Art Thieme 23 Nov 02 - 01:59 AM
ballpienhammer 23 Nov 02 - 06:36 AM
53 23 Nov 02 - 08:45 AM
Ebbie 23 Nov 02 - 04:19 PM
Shifter 23 Nov 02 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,The Jews 23 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM
Genie 24 Nov 02 - 04:27 AM
Troll 24 Nov 02 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 24 Nov 02 - 08:37 AM
AggieD 24 Nov 02 - 09:07 AM
Ireland 24 Nov 02 - 10:25 AM
saulgoldie 24 Nov 02 - 11:50 AM
moineau nordique 24 Nov 02 - 12:50 PM
Genie 24 Nov 02 - 01:08 PM
Mr Happy 24 Nov 02 - 03:02 PM
The Pooka 25 Nov 02 - 12:20 AM
Seamus Kennedy 25 Nov 02 - 02:35 AM
Seamus Kennedy 25 Nov 02 - 02:37 AM
Genie 25 Nov 02 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Tom Hamilton 25 Nov 02 - 05:36 AM
AggieD 25 Nov 02 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 25 Nov 02 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 25 Nov 02 - 11:59 AM
NicoleC 25 Nov 02 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 25 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM
NicoleC 25 Nov 02 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 25 Nov 02 - 02:39 PM
Deda 25 Nov 02 - 05:31 PM
NicoleC 25 Nov 02 - 05:46 PM
Penny S. 25 Nov 02 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 26 Nov 02 - 07:39 AM
NicoleC 26 Nov 02 - 11:31 PM
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Subject: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Moishe Pipik
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM

Bob Dylan

Steve Goodman

Simon & Garfunkel

Carole King

Janis Ian

Phil Ochs

Ramblin' Jack Elliott

Search for "done for us" threads


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:21 AM

jesus

the lost tribes

israel

yehudi menuhuin

karl marx

harpo marx

chico marx

beppo marx

marx & spencers

barbara streisand

groucho marx

benjamin disraeli

christmas

easter


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:59 AM

kosher bailey?


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 10:20 AM

You had to go and spoil it, didn't you!


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 10:52 AM

The creation of the film studio system and, subsequently, what became today's Hollywood, both good & bad.
( re: "An Empire of Their Own" by Neil Gabler )
The Goldwyns, Louis B. Mayer, the Zanucks, warner Brothers,etc.
Now Dreamworks SKG ( Spielberg,Katzenburg ,& Geffen )
Legendary Rock Concert promoter and owner of the filmore East & West, as characteriszed by his playing himself in his cameo role in "Apocalypse Now" ( 'member the Playboy helicopter and dem go-go dancing bunnies? )


Being a New Yawker I can mention the Publishing , Advertisng ,and Television industries including now cable thanks to the inarguable ownerships and corporate conglomerate governance by the likes of Barry Diller , Micheal Eisner ( Disney/ABC ) and formerly of Time/Warner Jerry Levin .
William Pailey, the architect of CBS News, then bought, cost-cut, news talent -gutted , and then sold by N.Y. billioniare Larry Tisch
NBC was Sarnof.
The New York Times owned by the Schuleburg family.

Lest we forget Steve Ruebel & Schacht whom created "Studio54"
and then indicted for tax evasion. I won't go into their lawyer , famed MacCarthy shill Roy "Citizen Cohen".

Fashion industry. Did you know toney Ralph Lauren's given name was Raplh Lipschitz ( only in America ).Throw in Calvin Klein, Donna Karan and then throw in the attendent chic-chic rag shops. Saks 5th Avenue being the one brand name most folks would recognize.

Some of the greatest Art Museums & Galleries in the world based in NY of which my personal favorite is the Guggenheim though not for most of the modernist art but for the single most unque sculpture that is the building itself designed by one of my favorite American icons, Frank Lloyd Wright.
Real Estate would be a whole library of books ; most famous of which is the Pulitzer Prize winning biography by Robert Caro of Robert Moses entitled "The Power Broker" .
So, summing up , the N.Y. Jewish immigrants gave the us a lot of what is known as New Yawk , New Yawk.

Take it or leave it.

Oh, Yeah, honorable mention to Ben & Jerry's ice cream.
They make up for the obnoxious phoneies Abby Hoffman & Jerry Rubin were.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: AggieD
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:10 AM

Chicken soup - the Jewish penicillin

Bagels

Hamburgers(Jewish immigrants took minced beef,onions etc, made it into a type of burger,fried it & ate it between 2 slices of bread)

Salt Beef (Corned Beef in the US) & dill pickles in sandwiches

Cold fried fish in Matzo meal - sounds disgusting but tastes out of this world.

I could go on for hours.

Aggie


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Giac
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:16 AM

Mr. Meyer, who owned a dry goods store in the small, Southern town where I spent my childhood in the 1940s. He and his wife were certainly novel in their beliefs and lifestyle, in that region, in that time. They were two of the nicest people I've ever known.

Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:19 AM

Jack Kirby

Joe Simon

Wil Eisner

The Spirit

Siegel And Schuster

Superman

Captain America

The Fantastic Four

The Hulk

Spiderman

Et Al


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM

Given us somewhere to have a scrap with the Moors


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM

Leonard Cohen

Kirk Douglas

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:21 PM

Dick Greenhaus


Susan Friedman


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Mudlark
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:48 PM

And they gave my my best friend, Linda, who is coming to stay with me for 6 wks here in sunny California, an escapee from the dreariness of London. I'm on my way right now to pick her up at the airport. She doesn't sing but she's a great appreciator--I'm hoping I can get her to buy a couple of Mudcat CD's...


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:05 PM

Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Netanyahu, Henry Kissinger, Monica Lewinsky.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM

Some of the funniest jokes every told.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:49 PM

In historical terms, during the Medieval ages, the next best thing to an Arab doctor was a Jewish one... if you were more concerned about your body that your soul, of course. Many famous historical figures owed their lives to Jewish medicine, which was quite a bit less superstitious than the mainstream.

Oh course, we can also thank the Jews for both Christianity and Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:44 PM

More on Cold fried fish in Matzo meal please.

What about Edward G Robinson.
One of the best women soldiers in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Schantieman
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:55 PM

Chopped liver.


Did you hear about the Jewish woman who had two chickens?

One of them got sick - so she killed the other to make chicken soup for it.

My grandmother made the best chicken soup ever. Now my daughter's grandmother does.


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Subject: Ireland's post
From: GUEST,C. Jorgenson
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:19 PM

Ireland,

You must tell us how you concluded Edward G. Robinson was one of the best women soldiers in the world.

I always thought he was an actor. I didn't know about him being a soldier, or about his sex change.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:25 PM

Got me, See! wah! wah! he did run about in a skirt in the ten commandments though. See! See! yea yea and other sayings. Good one lol


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Joe_F
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:45 PM

According to H. L. Mencken, they revolutionized the delicatessen business & invented the ham & cheese sandwich.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:25 PM

Christianity and Islam


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: RangerSteve
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:40 PM

Food. Really good food. Chopped liver, bagels, knishes.

ANd some pretty decent people, like about 50 percent of my musical friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:56 PM

I always thought that many of McGrath of Harlow's Mudcay postings were just paraphrasing of easily found Chomskyisms.

Now I see that he also tries to pass off other Mudcatter's ideas as his own. I mean look at NicoleC's 2:49 PM post and compare it to McGrath's plagarism at 5:25 PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM

My wife.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 01:46 AM

Just call me "NoahC" ;D


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 01:59 AM

And I am on the list as well.

ART THIEME


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: ballpienhammer
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 06:36 AM

John Denver, Neil Diamond, Babs Streisand, Ischaak Perlman,


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: 53
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 08:45 AM

Gods chosen people:


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:19 PM

An aside- 53BOB, that reminds me of what Garrison Keillor has called Minnesotans: 'God's frozen people'.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Shifter
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 05:03 PM

Well a few years ago a Jew used to cut my hair and a very nice job he made of it!


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,The Jews
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM

Hey there ballpienhammer,

Where do you get off trying to pawn John Denver off as Jewish?

If ever there was a goyishe goy, it was John Denver.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Genie
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 04:27 AM

chale (challah) bread

really great cheesecake

George M. Cohan, so I'm told

gefilte fish

wonderful Yiddish words such as fakakteh, verklempt, mumser, kvetch, schmendrich, putz, chutzpeh, kibbitz

Linda Richman

Oy, vey!

*The Unicorn Song

*The Queen Of The Silver Dollar

*A Boy Named Sue (?)

Ladino music

Hanukkah guilt gelt

Israeli folk dancing

Sandy Koufax

Sigmund Freud

Albert Einstein

Karl Marx

Fiddler On The Roof

songs about dancing rabbis

Theodore Bikel

Oscar Hammerstein

Irving Berlin

George and Ira Gershwin

Sammy Kahn

Kinky Friedman

------------------

* and other songs, poems, etc. by Shel Silverstein


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 05:38 AM

KLEZMER!
My wife and son

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 08:37 AM

Just remembered the name of thew rock concert empresario/hawker ,Bill Graham ( don't know his original family name )
BTW: Bob Denver's original family name was the rather Tuetonic "Deutchendorfer".


For better of for worse they gave us J.RoberOppenheimer and Edward Teller( creator of the Hyfrogen Bomb AND Reagan's "Star Wars" space-based weaponry dream ) ; step-fathers of the age of Weapons of Mass Destruction....oh and Ethel & Julius Rosenburg.
Oh ,and lest we forget Henry Kissinger.....
and MSFT's Steve Ballmer. ( co-monopolist judged "illegal" then got off by Bush DoJ )
Speaking of over-acheivers, new candidates go to Tufts graduate Andy Fastow, recently indicted for masterminding the complex shell game corporations that are at the heart of the collapse of the infrastructure of the now infamous Enron.
Atleast when Micheal Milken was caught the only ones who lost their livelihood were the Yuppies ay collapsed Drexel Burnham

Seeing as how no one group is "immune" from the full range of human nature and you want to take pride in one's "bright shining" over-acheivers you've got to own up to what happens when the dark side holds sway to those talents as well.
A lot of innocent people are still greatly affected by the abuse of power weilded by the above mentioned .

Just speaking as a New Yawker calling 'em as I've seen 'em. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: AggieD
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 09:07 AM

The basic laws & principles of what comprises western society.

Larry Adler

Ireland, whisk an egg in a shallow bowl, spread a good 1/2" thick layer of medium matzo meal on a plate & season well with salt & pepper, dip a fillet of plaice, cod, haddock or halibut in the egg, coat the fish on both with the matzo meal by pressing it down onto the layer of matzo meal on the plate, fry in good quality, very hot vegetable (corn or sunflower) cooking oil until golden brown, drain well on kitchen paper, & leave to cool.

Anyone need a recipe for chicken soup!

Remember Jewish cooking is done to everyone's mother's recipe. Get a rooom full of Jewish women & they all have their own recipe & each one is the only one that is right!


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Ireland
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 10:25 AM

Thanks Aggie, are you the big Aggie that lives down the street? lol.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 11:50 AM

No family is perfect. Each group has its derelicts and dysfunctionals. The family of Jews is no exception. No group, not Wiccans, Eskimos, Christians, Peruveans, Unitarians, atheists, Irish, Pagans, Moslems, indigenous Americans, Lesbians, Siberians, Folkies, or trogolodytes is particularly proud of theirs. But they are inevitably a part of every family.

However, I find it gratifying that so many are weighing in with their take on "us." I am proud of our contribution and the values and ideals that we stand for. (And that is not troll bait, BTW.)


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: moineau nordique
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:50 PM

Bialys, bagels, latkes, blintzes, and noodle kugel from Katz's deli.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Genie
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 01:08 PM

How could I forget? JERRY LIEBER (and MIKE STOLLER, too, I think)!

also Carole King

And, yes, latkes, blintzes,lox and bagels, and corned beef on rye.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 03:02 PM

E.T.

steven spielberg

b good- phone home!


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:20 AM

Tom Lehrer. Albert Einstein (and a vastly disproportionate number of other top phsyicists in particular & scientists in general). Woody Allen. Allan Sherman. Mel Brooks. Barry Goldwater. (Yeah, he counts, Episcopalian or no -- see grandfather Big Mike Goldwasser; and yeah, he was important. Look around.) Similarly, Milton Friedman. (Look around.) Hannah Arendt. Abba Eban (RIP). Yitzhak Rabin.

My wife, once her conversion is completed. (Yeah, sure that counts. She couldn't Convert if They weren't There, now could she?)

As somebody said above, no Trollbait: collectively, the most brilliant & accomplished people on the face of the earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 02:35 AM

Sammy Davis, Jr.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 02:37 AM

And I'm surprised that Little Hawk hasn't weighed in with Wm. Shatner & Leonard Nimoy.

Seamus again


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Genie
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 04:10 AM

Paddy Graber (a gift from the Irish AND the Jews!).


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Tom Hamilton
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:36 AM

As one stupid British MP said as he was in Israel, he said to both Jews and Palestians, "Come on we should behave like Christains"


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: AggieD
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 06:23 AM

Ireland

I don't think I live down the street to you, how will I ever know??

Aggie


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:50 AM

(quote)
"Barry Goldwater. (Yeah, he counts, Episcopalian or no -- see grandfather Big Mike Goldwasser; "

Well, being a New Yawker, I'm curious about this Adam Sandler-esque definition of whom can be "claimed" as being Jewish. The strick definition is being born of a Jewish mother
( which , I assume ,is the reason why you've made a point of mentioning your wife's conversion; so you're childen can be condiered "legally" Jewish according to Hebrew law? )
and being raised in atleast a culturally jewish home.

I mention this because you've rekindled the memory of all the contravercy stirred up in the American jewish community over former Sect of State Madeline Albright whom , it was reported , it discovered that she was of Euro-Jewish heritage, but she said she had no memory of knowledge of her being Jewish and was raised in some other denomination for which she was vilified by some commentators; Watergate reporter/commentator Daniel Shore I remember particularly with a scathing criticism on NPRas if what she did as a crime against "her people"

This raises the issue of Nature/Nurture and the subsequent questioni of:
Is being Jewish a *race* first ( which *no* can join. Try *converting* to Japanese ) and thus bloodlines are *the* deciding factor which is suggested by the *born of a Jewish mother* requirement , or is the archetypal monotheism that is the core of their great body of beliefs, and thus their bright shining contribution to mankind , *the* determinant factor?

Furthermore if the Jews continually attribute their most accomplished uniqueness of place in the human family to their sacred beliefs as a *chosen people* ,then does that not make aetheistic, so-called *cultural Jews*, considerably *disenfranchised* from what originally made them "chosen" and , thus , reduces Jewishness to be purely based upon "tribal bloodlines" which unavoidably carries with it all of the built-in historical pathologies that have always come from a culture of "un-alloyed* human nature?


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:59 AM

(quote)
"As one stupid British MP said as he was in Israel, he said to both Jews and Palestians, "Come on we should behave like Christains"

Stupid for "whom" said it ( legacy of the debaucher Henry VIII's creation of the Chruch of England's brand of Christianity and all the Empire business that followed with it ) ,but harldy *inaccurate* when you consider that Old Testament culture of an "eye for an eye" and "fierce identity of tribalism" codified.

While often enough failed in practice by imperfect humans ,this can *not* take away from the *teachings* introduced *forgiveness* and the beatudes of which " Blessed are the Peacemakers*.

I'm sure there are those whom can quote from the Torah or the Quran where these spiritual principles are amply expressed , but current behavior representing both tribal faiths certainly have caused one to question whether these similar passges were ever written ,let alone practiced.
So ,until both sides can demonstrate the spiritually evolved expression of the shining points of principle in their respective faiths ,the statement is ,at the very least , an insult most deserved to both faiths whose principles of faith have utterly *failed* to promote anything resembling Peace .

BTW: Stupid for "whom" said it also because of the role the British Empire played in the "Great Game" of the Euro-imperialists ( led by the Brit Empire ) which created wholey artificial national constructs for the Empire's, and attendent corporate, convinience of management and advancement.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:18 PM

"So ,until both sides can demonstrate the spiritually evolved expression of the shining points of principle in their respective faiths ,the statement is ,at the very least , an insult most deserved to both faiths whose principles of faith have utterly *failed* to promote anything resembling Peace ."

Um... are you trying to say that Christianity *is* universally enlightened and peaceful?

No offense, but Christianity in practice is just as brutal and vicious and violent as any other western religion. Jesus may have practiced non-violence, but the institution based on his name certainly hasn't.

But Jesus, after all, was a product of Judaism, wasn't he?


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM

(quote)
"Um... are you trying to say that Christianity *is* universally enlightened and peaceful?"

I kinda had a feeling this "misinterpretation" would surface as it always does. If you had included a direct quote :
"While often enough failed in practice by imperfect humans ,this can *not* take away from the *teachings* , then your above question and follow-up:
(quote)
"No offense, but Christianity in practice is just as brutal and vicious and violent as any other western religion."

...would not have arisen.
BTW: No offense taken. I am certainly all too aware of the *failings* of those whom define themselves as following the *teachings* of Jesus the Christ and is ,no less ,a continual heartbreak .
However within the strict Isreali/Palestinian conflict , which is still considered a potential flashpoint triggring a *nuclear war*, the Christain quotient that collectively comprises what is "The Holy Land" is disproportionately shunted to the side and considered *collateral*at best ( witness the Bethlehem standoff ) in all of that epithet's implications. Both sides consider the Christian part as irrelevent and had best stay out of the way.
Well, that would pretty much leave the people the tribes of the Torah & Quran left to their own devies by their own concious choice, now wouldn't it?

(quote)
"But Jesus, after all, was a product of Judaism, wasn't he? "

Yes, his teachings were the next "evolutionary" advance in the spiritual approach to life that the world was given to work with ,or not .
Yes whom was summarily rejected as such and put to death as the first act of an anti-Christian *final solution* to these new "unorthodox" teachings.
Even the Roman Empire tried, with their original "fascism", a brutal *final solution*. In Rome ultimately "the state" itself was their god. from which Romans drew their cult of identity and sought to impose on the rest of the "conquorable" world ; a cult of *personality* always walks hand-in-hand woith an agnostic fascism that has replayed itself many times in Eurasia and is with us still .

All that said, what I "am" saying is that since both the higher teachings of these tribes has appaently failed to produce anything resembling a Peace worthy of representing their respecting holy teachings it was not "out of place" to suggest an alternative since it was nowhere to be found in evidence ,forget practice , one either side of that great tribal divide that "is" Jerusalem.

Let's say that it is also fair to say the world is yet "waiting" for wither faith to prove that it has the principle of Peace-making and forgiveness in the faith they so vehemently draw their identity from. Let's also say that quoting Old Testament or Jiahdic justifications for the violence kind of drowns out the better angels of those faiths.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:41 PM

Hmm. Well, I see what you are saying, but I think you are still drastically over-estimating the "peaceful" nature of Christianity compared to Islam or Judaism. There are many Jewish religious writings of peace and non-violence -- both Ghandi and Desmond Tutu have creditted them with inspiring their struggles.

AFAIK, Islam has yet to create a great peaceful leader, but to be fair, they haven't had the 100 years or so of relative peace to bring about that kind of cultural shift. Islam teaches violence as a last resort, and quite frankly the region has been plagued by one invader after another for the past couple hundred years. The Palestinians are, after all, fighting against those who siezed and occupied their homes and land. It might be time for them to let it go for the sake of peace, but what they truly lack is inspired leadership.

I think the actions of Israel have little to do with Jewish culture, and much to do with modern greedy politics. It's not fair, I don't think, to blame their religions for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. You might as well blame Christianity -- if the Jews hadn't suffered centuries of Christian oppression in Europe, Hitler would have never been able to use them so successfully as a scapegoat, and the Zionist "terrorists" in Palestine would never have been able to get the support they needed from the west to sieze land for a Jewish state.

On one side we have a former terrorist in power, and on the other a war criminal. Is it any wonder that peace isn't made?


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 02:39 PM

(quote)
"Well, I see what you are saying, but I think you are still drastically over-estimating the "peaceful" nature of Christianity compared to Islam or Judaism. ...."

Hold it right there. I specifically said *teachings* twice now didn't I ? The "nature of Christianity" as a religious identity , with all of it's divisions in Protestantism alone, is as subject to the failings of the humans that carry them forward as any religious group.
No argument "ever" on that point.
Now ,within the context Isreali/Palestinian conflict ,where the Christian inhabitants of their measure of "The Holy Land" have been made irrelvent and made to stay out of the dispute , one would want to know to what degree the "peaceful nature of Christianity" is even allowed to play a part. You didn't address that part.

(quote)
"There are many Jewish religious writings of peace and non-violence"

Ofcourse there would be only where are they in "practice".
As I said earlier it is a fair point to suggest an alternative approach seeing as how the Hebrew *teachings* have yet to produce . Need I remind you that the military hero, Yitzhak Rabin , who was leaning toward just that expression of the Isreali's was ruthlessly "asasinated" by a young right-wing Isreali student and Netanyahu ,whom fed upon this right-wing tribal fundamentalism in his opposing campaign and won election as Primje Minister; his opponent now murdered by an Isreali hand.

(quote)
"I think the actions of Israel have little to do with Jewish culture.."

This really is a gross oxymoron of a statement. Isreal was created to be "the" center of all that "is" Jewish culture of Jewish identity , its very Fountainhead "especially" expressed in the self-determination of sel;-government , and to try and segregate Isreali politic as somehow out of the loop of Isreali culture ,whom daily have no problem quoting the "Mosaic Law" in the Knesset and entertain the dream of one day reserrecting the Temple of Solomon, is hopelessly disingenuous to even attempt on your part.

(quote)
"It's not fair, I don't think, to blame their religions for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict..."

Well ,seeing as how their espective eligions are at the very heart and hearth and core of their "tribal identiies" and is used to justify each of their methods of addressing their side of the struggle I fail to see why you believe it "unfair". You're going to have to buttress this point of yours better. They don't separate out their religious tribal idnetities from their political policies of "self-determination" so one may well ask how you come to this conclusion. Fair enough?

(quote)
" You might as well blame Christianity -- if the Jews hadn't suffered centuries of Christian oppression in Europe, Hitler would have never been able to use them so successfully as a scapegoat,..."

Well if they ,at the hands of disparate warring regimes "professing" variations of adherence to Christian doctrine, were so thoroughly oppressed fro centuries ,one woders how they could've ever arisen to such prominence as to be "able" to be made a scapegoat of. How "European" culture mishandled the expression of their fractured Christianity for centuries speaks to how any religious culture can be "corrupted" for "political ends".

(quote)
" ...and the Zionist "terrorists" in Palestine would never have been able to get the support they needed from the west to sieze land for a Jewish state."

Well ,whom set the stage in that area really does directly fall upon the British Empire's shenanigans in the name of their brand of British State Chrisitianity. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Deda
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:31 PM

The Jews gave us the seven-day week, and the sabbath, whence came weekends. And monotheism.

Has anyone mentioned the polio vaccine? More medical and scientific advances than we could easily count.

My ex-husband, my (converted) orthodox daughter and my grandson.

BTW I very highly recommend the movie "Trembling before G-d". See it if you can -- very beautiful and moving. Also a gift of the Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:46 PM

You see, this is exactly my point. By pointing fingers of blame at one religion after another, you just end up in a circle of vicious recrimination that gets nowhere. And I hate to break it to you, but there are quite a few Christian Palestinians; this is not solely a Muslim cause.

You give the example of a single Israeli who behaved in a violent fashion for the sake of his religion. Honestly, if we wanted to name names, I bet you'd run out of Jewish names before Christian ones. None of it would be indicative of the religious teachings of either.

Saying that the state of Israel fairly represents Judaism is like saying the United States fairly represents Christianity. Hogwash. The state of Israel is a government first, and a Jewish people second. Governments of any stripe rarely act with the religious values that they profess to represent/protect/desire. You can't say on one hand that the actions of predominantly Christian states aren't representative of Christianity, while holding Israel and Palestine up to a different standard.

Then you claim that Jewish teachings and practice of peace don't count, while ignoring hundreds of years of Christian writings which determined that non-Christians didn't have souls, and therefore it was okay to kill them. By equating only the Old Testament with Jewish teaching, you are ignoring centuries of other Jewish religious texts; the idea that Judaism is all about an eye for an eye is a stereotype, nothing more.

To imply that the Jews really weren't oppressed during the middle ages in Europe is... well... I suggest you read some history. It sounds like you've been listening to the neo-Nazis that believe that all Jews are rich and in league with the devil. Which is exactly what the attitude was during the medieval era. The Black Plaque was blamed on the Jews, bad harvests, famine, drought -- anything was the Jew's fault. The Jews, of course, rarely reacted to their persecution violently -- partially out of self-preservation, but also because of their religious beliefs. Is that not a legacy of peaceful teachings?

Is Christianity irrelevant in the conflict over Jerusalem? I guess that depends. Do predominantly Christian governments have a right to sieze a portion of Jerusalem for their Christian Holy City? I'd say no.

But since many of the predominantly Christian nations (as well as others) are activily involved in trying to resolve the conflict, and the Palestinians at least have repeatedly made requests that nations like the US and Britain get MORE involved, I fail to see how you can come to the conclusion that Christianity is not being represented. Acheiving peace will allow more Christians to make pilgrimages if they desire to do so. Peace is in the best interest of all the religions involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 06:27 PM

I have understood that Jesus' teachings, and those of Paul, were after the school of Hillel, to which Gamaliel also belonged. Jesus had to have happened at a time when certain ideas had already been broached, discussed, and taken on by a proportion of the community. Judaism had grown towards that point. And continued beyond it. Didn't it develop the ideas of pacifism much earlier than the other monotheistic religions took it up?

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:39 AM

(quote)
"You see, this is exactly my point. By pointing fingers of blame at one religion after another, you just end up in a circle of vicious recrimination that gets nowhere."

Well ,to prevent this from cycling further to distorting what I actually said ( which would happen less if you merely applied the common courtesy of (quoting) my axtual words more instead of just reacting . I do so there "is" no misunderstanding ),can we please return to the *original* point that led this dialogue?

I responded to Tom Hamilton's post
"As one stupid British MP said as he was in Israel, he said to both Jews and Palestians, "Come on we should behave like Christains"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To which I responded :
(quote)
"Stupid for "whom" said it ......but harldy *inaccurate* when you consider that Old Testament culture of an "eye for an eye" and "fierce identity of tribalism" codified......"
".....While often enough failed in practice by imperfect humans ,this can *not* take away from the *teachings* introduced *forgiveness* and the beatudes of which " Blessed are the Peacemakers*."

You took exception to that and we began what started out as a civilized debate which , having grown up in New York , iI know is a delicate task at best.
Then you're rebuttals become more exaggerated:
(quote)
"You give the example of a single Israeli who behaved in a violent fashion for the sake of his religion."

My dear, the lone Isreali assasin of war hero Rabin was part of a very distinct and , what's more ,*widely reported upon by the Isreali press* as part of a growing *right wing* party movement which then opposing candidate Netanyahu fed red-meat rhetoric too and thus contributed to the *fundamentalist* elements of the Likuds that made it acceptable enough for someone to take the law into their own hands as if following a "higher law".
Point; this heinous political assasination of an opposing candidate did *not* happen in a vaccuum. If you bothered to read or see the interview with Rabin's *widow* on whom she held responsible for fomenting the fever that led to her war hero husband's death you'd know better of what you speak as well.
What's more it is the more peaceful Isreali's whom knew they had to challenge this rise of their right-wing and had a chance with Barak.
Well all know the criminal acts of the Palestinian "jihadists" which caused Sheron to be swept into power and it looks like his tactics will now sweep him out again.

(quote)
"Saying that the state of Israel fairly represents Judaism is like saying the United States fairly represents Christianity."

For you to say that the State of Isreali does *not* represent Judaism when it was *created* to be *the* center of the Jewish world infused with the self-determination of self-government , is so abyssmally self-delusional as to make the credability of your argument derail.
Exhibit A:
(quote)
"Then you claim that Jewish teachings and practice of peace don't count,..."

Excuse me ,but this *impression* of yours is patently false and if you had bothered to porduce the quote where I say this this putting false words in my post would've been avoided. But you preferred to just emotionally "react" to what you thought you were reading.
This is how rational debates degenerate into the name calling as you've already begun to do by impuning my opinion as being informed by Neo-Nazi propaganda which is damnably insulting to me personally.
(quote)
"It sounds like you've been listening to the neo-Nazis that believe that all Jews are rich and in league with the devil. "

I have always found the hateful propaganda of far right wingnut Arian Nation and Neo-Nazi group wholey repugnant and degenrate in its using false words to promote false doctrine.
My Dad fought in the Euro-theatre of WWII to the noble cause of uttelry defeating the Nazi Germany's ideology and its attendent war machine and I was raised accordingly so you keep your creeping personal insults.
(quote)
" To imply that the Jews really weren't oppressed during the middle ages in Europe is..."
I was not ,as you say "implying anything. What I said specifically said was:
(quote)
"Well if they.....were so thoroughly oppressed fro centuries ,one wonders how they could've ever arisen to such prominence as to be "able" to be made a scapegoat of."

I well know enough Euro-history ( for a New York yank ) to have been very informed of the culture of Euro-oppression of the Jews as a "seprate people" ,but history itself proves that they all weren't *so* oppressed since many acheived positions of prominence in Proto-Euro societies after Europe *began* to become enough enlightened during the Rennaissance and "higher learning" grew to be souhgt after. To say otherwise is to deny the rightful claim to the advanced talents of the Jews that are a part of their history. You need a little more balance in your history learnin' as well.

My final point goes with this uninformed line of reasoning:
(quote)
"By equating only the Old Testament with Jewish teaching, you are ignoring centuries of other Jewish religious texts; the idea that Judaism is all about an eye for an eye is a stereotype, nothing more."

Well tell that "just" to the Likud party whom use this rhetoric regularly as translaytions of that rhetoric is reported in little papers from the New York Times to the Washington Times
as well as C-Span broadcasts , with translation ,of actual Knesset floor debates. What's more I do *not* equate *only* the Old Testament with Jewish teaching, but I *do* point out how this part of Jewish teaching is resorted to among the Isreali *fundamantalists" whom are the driving force of the right-wing Likud whom have held sway over the policies of a "nuclear armmed" Isreal and we have the present state of hostilities
to show for it.
And before you go off on another pre-rant on piping up and acusing me of "totally ibnoring" the Palestinian incitements to violence ( didn't know "Infitada" ,"Hamas" ,and Palestinian Jihad" were to be equated by you as a part "Christian" culture with your remark about there being "Christian-Palestinians. I wonder how brave you would be to speak out when surrounded by a policy of fever-pitch hatred where you live surrounded by your militant neighbors )
Get real will you please.

Other than that here's hoping that the more enlightened souls
in *both* Faiths acheive ascendancy and demonstrate the better angels of their respective Faiths and tribal identities they draw from them.
Fair enough?
I pray for Peace.;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:31 PM

Well, obviously we must agree to disagree. Sorry you felt I was insulting you or ranting. But it still appears to me that you are falling into an ethnocentric trap. You recognize Christian teachings of peace as an ideal, but not the same teachings of peace in Judaism. Fundamentalists of any creed seem to pay a lot of lip-service to tradition while failing to uphold it. Christianity hasn't been pacifist as a general rule (although some sects are) since the Roman era.

Having been on the receiving end of some of those "peaceful" Christian values, I'm not inclined to share your views about how much more violent the other religions are. It's a little more clear to me that the views of one group are not necessarily representative of a whole religion. I kinda doubt your average group of Methodists, Mormons or Mennonites would have put me in the hospital.

Other than that here's hoping that the more enlightened souls
in *both* Faiths acheive ascendancy and demonstrate the better angels of their respective Faiths and tribal identities they draw from them.
Fair enough?
I pray for Peace.;-)


Heartily agreed -- except I'd say *all three* faiths. Plus throw in some of the Hindu radicals... and the list goes on.

On to more scholarly subjects, Incidentally, I did a little research and came up with ONE (the only?) pacificist Islamic leader. He was one of the founders of Pakistan -- ironically, both India and Pakistan have non-violent pioneers in their history.   Abdul Ghaffar Khan, a Pashtun living in British India, founded the Khudai Khidmatgar, a movement which eventually gained 100,000 members, many of which were eventually slaughtered by the Indian (British) Army until the army refused to shoot them any more because they just stood there and let them kill them. Khan was a comtemporary of Ghandi and involved in the same cause, and the even toured together to promote peace in the 1940's. Khan didn't leave any writings, unlike Ghandi, so the fundamentalists in Pakistan are doing a good job of writing him out of history, and of course in India Ghandi is the hero.

Who knew? They didn't teach that in my elementary school, although we learned all about Ghandi.

P.S. I wasn't quoting because we were the only ones talking, so it seemed a little redundant to me.


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