mudcat.org: Dr Howells now insults the USA
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Dr Howells now insults the USA

The Shambles 20 Nov 02 - 05:10 AM
The Shambles 20 Nov 02 - 05:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Nov 02 - 05:19 AM
The Shambles 20 Nov 02 - 05:24 AM
GUEST 20 Nov 02 - 05:50 AM
GUEST 20 Nov 02 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Richard Bridge 20 Nov 02 - 06:02 AM
catspaw49 20 Nov 02 - 08:06 AM
Rapparee 20 Nov 02 - 08:27 AM
Peter T. 20 Nov 02 - 08:54 AM
Naemanson 20 Nov 02 - 09:21 AM
Amos 20 Nov 02 - 09:31 AM
Grab 20 Nov 02 - 09:40 AM
kendall 20 Nov 02 - 09:49 AM
Gareth 20 Nov 02 - 10:20 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 20 Nov 02 - 11:00 AM
Bobert 20 Nov 02 - 11:03 AM
denise:^) 20 Nov 02 - 11:35 AM
Wolfgang 20 Nov 02 - 11:58 AM
kendall 20 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM
Peter T. 20 Nov 02 - 12:30 PM
Little Hawk 20 Nov 02 - 12:33 PM
Declan 20 Nov 02 - 12:37 PM
DougR 20 Nov 02 - 12:49 PM
Ebbie 20 Nov 02 - 01:38 PM
The Shambles 20 Nov 02 - 02:03 PM
DougR 20 Nov 02 - 02:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Nov 02 - 02:13 PM
denise:^) 20 Nov 02 - 02:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Nov 02 - 02:31 PM
Rapparee 20 Nov 02 - 03:50 PM
The Shambles 20 Nov 02 - 04:00 PM
Fortunato 20 Nov 02 - 04:14 PM
DougR 20 Nov 02 - 04:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Nov 02 - 05:17 PM
Bill D 20 Nov 02 - 05:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Nov 02 - 06:20 PM
Bill D 20 Nov 02 - 06:41 PM
M.Ted 20 Nov 02 - 06:44 PM
Ebbie 20 Nov 02 - 06:46 PM
NicoleC 20 Nov 02 - 06:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Nov 02 - 07:42 PM
GUEST 20 Nov 02 - 08:33 PM
Bob Bolton 20 Nov 02 - 09:42 PM
Ebbie 20 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM
denise:^) 21 Nov 02 - 01:51 AM
Roger the Skiffler 21 Nov 02 - 04:34 AM
Wolfgang 21 Nov 02 - 06:59 AM
Mary in Kentucky 21 Nov 02 - 08:26 AM
Grab 21 Nov 02 - 09:05 AM
Fortunato 21 Nov 02 - 09:10 AM
The Shambles 21 Nov 02 - 09:48 AM
Snuffy 21 Nov 02 - 10:00 AM
jimmyt 21 Nov 02 - 10:40 AM
Dave Bryant 21 Nov 02 - 10:52 AM
Fortunato 21 Nov 02 - 11:09 AM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,noddy 21 Nov 02 - 11:33 AM
kendall 21 Nov 02 - 12:54 PM
Ebbie 21 Nov 02 - 12:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 02 - 01:46 PM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 01:53 PM
jimmyt 21 Nov 02 - 02:12 PM
Metchosin 21 Nov 02 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Charmion at work 21 Nov 02 - 03:09 PM
Gareth 21 Nov 02 - 03:43 PM
denise:^) 21 Nov 02 - 03:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 02 - 04:08 PM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 04:52 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 21 Nov 02 - 05:14 PM
Ebbie 21 Nov 02 - 05:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 02 - 09:05 PM
maire-aine 21 Nov 02 - 11:01 PM
Orac 22 Nov 02 - 06:12 AM
The Shambles 22 Nov 02 - 07:02 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 Nov 02 - 07:47 AM
The Shambles 22 Nov 02 - 08:17 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 Nov 02 - 08:32 AM
The Shambles 24 Nov 02 - 01:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 02 - 01:40 PM
The Shambles 24 Nov 02 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 24 Nov 02 - 02:48 PM
denise:^) 24 Nov 02 - 02:59 PM
The Shambles 24 Nov 02 - 02:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 02 - 04:14 PM
DMcG 24 Nov 02 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Tom Hamilton 25 Nov 02 - 07:14 AM
The Shambles 25 Nov 02 - 08:02 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:








Subject: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:10 AM

Nicholas Watt, political correspondent
Wednesday November 20, 2002
The Guardian

It is billed as the greatest special relationship on earth; two countries bound together by common bonds stretching back centuries.
But most Americans are so ignorant of their kinsfolk in Britain they believe the UK is a far off country "somewhere" in the Middle East, according to the outspoken tourism minister, Kim Howells.

"Very often people do not understand the title of the country," Dr Howells told MPs of Commons culture select committee yesterday. "In America, people had heard of London, some had heard of England, no one had heard of the United Kingdom - they thought it was somewhere in the Middle East."

A spokesman for the culture department said Dr Howells, who hit the headlines when he dismissed this year's Turner prize shortlisted entries as "conceptual bullshit", was making a light-hearted comment. Americans should not take offence, the department said, because he had been just trying to illustrate the importance of using familiar expressions.

England and Britain are well known brands, they said, but the UK hardly registered. Even high-placed Americans struggle with the title. Foreign Office mandarins had to have a quiet word with American diplomats in 1998 after the CIA world factbox said that 1801 marked the date of the UK's "independence".

Dr Howells' remarks yesterday came as he admitted that UK tourism chiefs had "failed to persuade visitors to venture beyond London. Asked about a multi-million marketing campaign to persuade tourists to visit other parts of Britain, Dr Howells said the tourism boards had "dismally failed".

Meanwhile, the culture secretary, Tessa Jowell, rejected a charge by Ian Reynolds, chief executive of the Association of Travel Agents, that ministers were taking a laissez faire attitude to tourism, applying insufficient focus and resources.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:12 AM

USA Where is Dr Howells?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:19 AM

To be fair, where's the insult?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:24 AM

Well no one in the USA had heard of Dr Howells either. Perhaps he visited the United Arab Emerates, by mistake?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:50 AM

Dr Howells was only telling the truth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:55 AM

I don't who is Dr Howells, and I live in britian
so where is the insult


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:02 AM

Guest in Britian (sic) -

You ought to know Dr Howells: know thy enemy!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:06 AM

UK? Why hellfire, everybody here knows that!!! Yeah, GO WILDCATS!!! University of Kentucky basketball is tops!!!!

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:27 AM

Isn't the UK that place just off the coast of Ireland? Between Ireland and Luxembourg?

(Spaw, I live in Kentucky and discovered that there is someone here with an IQ of 210: the student body at UK.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:54 AM

I had a student last year who asked me where the European Union was. I actually thought it was a fair question. I told her it was in Belgium. yours, Peter T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:21 AM

Ah, geographic ignorance and arrogance. Just another example of American exports.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:31 AM

Ridiculous generalizations. The UK is well known here is SoCal as being just the other side of the East Coast.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Grab
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:40 AM

What insult?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: kendall
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:49 AM

Some years ago, a fisherman from Ellsworth Maine went to NYC (That's New York City, Mr. Howells) on business. He stayed overnight, and in the morning he went to the lobby to get a newspaper. He looked and looked, but couldn't find the one he wanted, so, he went to the desk clerk and asked why there was no ELLSWORTH AMERICAN on the newspaper rack. The clerk said "I don't even know where Ellsworth is."
Fisherman said, "Well, I would admit my ignorance, everyone in Ellsworth knows where New York is."
Geocentricity is not confined to America.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 10:20 AM

Ahhh ! Yes !!!! - and how often have myself and others had to remind catters the Wales is not England !!!!!!

Please also note that Kim Howells is not English. He does not represent an English Parliamentary Constituencey. He represents Pontypridd.

Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 11:00 AM

I also fail to see the insult. It's just a matter of terminology. It is probably true that many U.S. citizens fail to recognize the term "United Kingdom", but I don't think it's due to lack of geographical knowledge. It's just that the term is not part of U.S. common parlance and there are other terms which are more or less synonymous with it. (I know they're not really synonymous, but let's not split hairs, please.) I use it on this forum as a courtesy to UK 'Catters (and I avoid using the term "American" to refer to U.S. issues as a courtesy to Canadian 'Catters), but I seriously doubt that I have ever used "United Kingdom" or "UK" in everyday conversation.

Bruce


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 11:03 AM

Well, danged. Everytime I think I got this geography thing down someone goes and moves a few countries on me.

Ahhhh, Amos. Just how far off the Virgina coast is the UK? I have friends there and it'd be nice if to visit 'em if it were no more than an hour's flight in a rented Cesna.

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: denise:^)
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 11:35 AM

How can you not see the insult? Were YOU asked if you could identify the UK? I wasn't--but I can do it.

Any time you use a broad, sweeping generality to define or describe people, you are going to be inaccurate--and therefore insulting--to a large part of them.

Hence, to say that, "In America [query: did he intend to include Mexico and Canada?], no one has heard of the United Kingdom..." is an insult to a large portion of the U.S. population--who, I'm sure, have, indeed, heard of the United Kingdom.

For what it's worth, when I was on a month-long concert tour in England, very few people knew where (or what) Michigan was...

denise:^)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 11:58 AM

Michigan?

Nobody over here is able to remember names of Sumo wrestlers.

Wolfgang


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: kendall
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM

To say that Americans do this or that and Frenchmen vnever do this or that is silly. I'll bet that 99 out of 100 Mudcatters know where the UK is. Generalities usually dont work.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 12:30 PM

Sure, the UK is way east of kendall. yours, Peter T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 12:33 PM

"Generalities usually don't work!" What a droll statement. :-)

I wish to add my own thought to this, which is...

"Intolerance must NOT be tolerated!"

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Declan
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 12:37 PM

Yeah I've always hated the type of people who make generalisations !

How many people in the UK know where the UK is and which parts of neighbouring islands it does and doesn't include? No insult intended :#} .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: DougR
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 12:49 PM

I'm sure most Mudcatters who read BS threads know where the UK is because they would probably have read Spaw's 8:06 A.M. post by now.

Were I a betting man, I would bet, were you to stop ten people on a busy street in New York City and ask them who the president of the United States is, at least three or four of them wouldn't know. Conversely, were you to approach ten people on a busy street in London and ask who Tony Blair is, you would get the same result.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 01:38 PM

DougR, you've been watching- and internalizing- too many Jay Leno-jay-walking segments! Do you have any idea of how many people they have to ask those questions before they get - and air- the lamebrains??

It's my theory that people remember the most populous cities/regions of individual countries and don't commit to memory smaller areas. Many Europeans, Africans and U.K.ers (!) and others are familiar with New York (the city, only. Many don't even realize there is a whole state of New York); they know California as a destination and San Francisco and Los Angelos within it (They don't have a clue about Sacramento); they know Alaska, with its mystique- some think it's a country...

OTOH, it's not too surprising. The chances of an American abroad coming from NYC or from LA or San Francisco is fairly great- given the millions of people who live there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:03 PM

It was only with the fairly recent advent of the web, and its demands to know where I lived and giving me the option of USA or UK, that I really came to use the term.

It is not if what Dr Howells is saying is correct or not - but whether it is really wise for him to express these views.

He is after all the Minister who is responsible for promoting the interests of musicians, artists and tourism.

Describing musicians as 'hellish', artists of creating bullshit and
potential toursts (and war allies) as ignorant, I would suggest, may not prove to be very wise for him.

But these are not the main reason why I don't wish to bear his children.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: DougR
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:05 PM

Not guilty, Ebbie. I NEVER watch Jay Leno. So how many do they have to interview?

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:13 PM

You think Bush has heard of it?

As for the USA strictly speaking to avoid treading on anyones's toes it really ought to be referred to as the USNA. After all, it's not the only United States in America, since the full title of Brazil is the United States of Brazil (but in Portuguese).

I imagine if they asked "Where is the EU?" they'd get even fewer takers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: denise:^)
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:15 PM

I'm not Ebbie, but, looking at the EXTREME ignorance exhibited by the "jay-walk-ees," I'm hoping they have to interview (at least) hundreds!!

...and, for the record, 16 out of 18 of my kindergarten students could name the president for me today! (just thought I'd check...)

denise:^)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:31 PM

But what name did they give him?

Anyway in kindergarten kids are still pretty bright. It takes years of schooling to eliminate that sufficiently to allow them to take their place in adult society.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 03:50 PM

From an Associated Press story of today:


WASHINGTON (AP) — Ask young people to pick out Iraq on a map of the Middle East, and only 13 percent can locate it — despite a barrage of headlines and broadcast reports about a possible war against Saddam Hussein.

Same goes for Israel or Iran, according to a National Geographic study that finds there has been little to no improvement in students' knowledge of geography since 1988.

The society survey released Wednesday found that only about one in seven of Americans between the age of 18 and 24, the prime age for military warriors, could find Iraq. The score was the same for Iran, an Iraqi neighbor.



The survey asked 56 geographic and current events questions of young people in nine countries and scored the results with traditional grades. The surveyed Americans got a ``D,'' with an average of 23 correct answers. Mexico ranked last with an average score of 21, just three points from a failing grade.

Topping the scoring was Sweden, with an average of 40, followed by Germany and Italy, each with 38. None of the countries got an ``A,'' which required average scores of 42 correct answers or better on the 56 questions.



—Only 71 percent of the surveyed Americans could locate on the map the Pacific Ocean, the world's largest body of water. Worldwide, three in 10 of those surveyed could not correctly locate the Pacific Ocean.



The international survey was conducted for the National Geographic by RoperASW. The results are based on face-to-face interviews with at least 300 men and women aged 18 to 24 in Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Sweden, Britain and the United States.


------

I found it interesting that the worldwide percentage of those who could correctly located the Pacific Ocean was effectively the same. It's actually kind of hard to miss if you walk far enough.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 04:00 PM

I can't help worrying a little, with the forth-comming conflict due.

If those in the US and UK do not know where our two countries are, does this rather add to the existing problem suffering from 'friendly fire'?

I may not know where I am, but I know I'm not lost. G.W. Bush 2002


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Fortunato
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 04:14 PM

The real questions is: Which one of these politicians on either side of the Atlantic (or any other body of water or border) can find their ass with both hands. Minister of Tourism or President or Prime Minister, Republican or Democrat, Labor, Whigs, Torys, Libertarians, Bull Mooses, et al. How they scare me. Is this the same Minister of Tourism who believes that those who live in the UK, England, Britain, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, etc, shouldn't be allow to sing in pubs?

Can't we arrange for his obvious anal retentiveness to suck him back up his own colon?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: DougR
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 04:20 PM

Rapaire; why am I not surprised?

Denise: right on!

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:17 PM

What puzzles me isn't ignorance as such - it's the lack of curiosity it seems to show.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:28 PM

one of my favorite sayings : "It's too bad ignorance doesn't itch"
... this goes for people who CAN'T find other countries, and for those who make wild guesses about how many are actually ignorant.

Dr. Howells obviously leads with his mouth far too often...just like many American politicians.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:20 PM

"It's too bad ignorance doesn't itch" - I like that. It sums up what I find puzzling.

The thing is, for a lot of us it does itch. If I hear a place name I don't know I can't rest till I chase it down, and so forth. (Reach for the Google icon...) And I think most people start off like that. That's why kids are always asking questions. What happens to change that for some and not for others?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:41 PM

yep...I was one of a group of kids in the 6th grade who would come in early, and stay in at recess to play map games. We'd find some strange name on the map or globe, and the others would try to find it..I still remember stumping them with "Alma Ata" ...I can still draw a reasonable map of the USA from memory...and do a decent job with the world in general.......not sure why, but I LIKE knowing....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:44 PM

If only one in seven of our US soldiers is able to find Iraq, we will need to send a much larger army out than has been previously thought--


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:46 PM

I wonder just what model they use when they ask people to identify a country/region, etc. Is it a map - without names or titles - that gives just the silhouettes of the various countries? If so, there would be a LOT of countries I could probably not identify. Hey, I could probably identify all the US states by shape alone but I'm sure I'd have to stop and think at times if they were shown me without context.

By the same token, I'd have a lot of trouble with various countries. I know the approximate shape of some countries and/or regions- Germany, France and Italy, for instance, maybe even Iraq and Afghanistan, but Turkey, Siberia, Iceland (Sorry, Skarpi!), Luxembourg, et al- forget it. I'd be on the list of those-who-don't-know-squat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:47 PM

Well, Kevin, what happens to kids (at least here) is that they go to school. In school, you are taught that there is only one answer to every question. You are taught that stupid people have questions and smart people have answers. And you are taught, above all, to avoid looking stupid at all costs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:42 PM

And you also get taught never to appear smart either.

But how can you not know where Iceland is when you know Skarpi lives there, Ebbie? I mean how can you resist finding out?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:33 PM

I live in Scotland and and I bet that there's quite a lot of people in the UK know this Dr Howells is, I bet that's the same with most Americans don't know most of there politians either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:42 PM

G'day,

McGrath: "...ought to be referred to as the USNA ..." - US<>otbitmoNA?

Bill D: "It's too bad ignorance doesn't itch" - Doesn't it? It drives me crazy to not know something ... and I think that is true of most Mudcatters - if not the bulk of their compatriots.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM

McGrath of H, I know where Iceland is- I don't think I know its form.

And now I must go consult a map.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: denise:^)
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:51 AM

As for the kind of maps they use when they ask--

I'll admit that I've been stumped by maps on tests, on occasion--just a bunch of black, squiggeldy lines, where you can't tell what's water, what's land, what's a boundary, what's a river...!?! Especially when I had a geography professor that loved to use *hand drawn,* unlabeled, unshaded maps--and only of a small section of a country, so continental outlines were of no use to you...They (her maps)looked like black spaghetti noodles dropped on white paper! (I still managed to pull a 4.0, but those maps made me nutsy!)

So, I guess that there is some room to wonder...

denise:^)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 04:34 AM

From discussion on the radio & press it seems it was "UK" that stumped some people. They knew where it was when it was expressed as "Britain" or "United Kingdom". Someone in a letter to the press claimed that Geography isn't taught in American schools. Not true surely?
I'd have trouble placing every US state on a blank map myself, but then I failed "O" level Geography back in the Dark Ages.
RtS
(On a bad day I can't find my arse with both hands)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 06:59 AM

Link to National Geographic report which offers a bit more of information than Rapaire's post.

There are differences in knowledge between countries.

Wolfgang


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:26 AM

Spaw and Doug said it all! Go Big Blue!

And Bee-dubya-ell -- I had never used the name United Kingdom until I read Mudcat. Even now, if I had to converse with a friend, I would say England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Grab
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:05 AM

He is after all the Minister who is responsible for promoting the interests of musicians, artists and tourism.

Yep, and his point is that the government efforts to promote the UK as a tourist destination have been utterly unsuccessful, bcos no bugger knows where the UK is! Britain, yes; England, yes; Scotland, Ireland, yes; some may even know where Wales is ;-) - but no-one had heard of "the UK".

Graham.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Fortunato
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:10 AM

Well, I think Mary raises some good questions. I am a reasonably educated American with friends, ex-patriots and otherwise, from the UK.

Help me out here, you folks. Am I right when I say that:

The United Kingdom is a nation.

Great Britain is an island

England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are countries.

And Britain is synonym for England?

Have I missed anything?

Now the question I think Mary raises is, is everyone so consistent with their language that some confusion might not have crept in? And aren't Dr. Howell and the media over reacting just a bit?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:48 AM

Yep, and his point is that the government efforts to promote the UK as a tourist destination have been utterly unsuccessful, bcos no bugger knows where the UK is! Britain, yes; England, yes; Scotland, Ireland, yes; some may even know where Wales is ;-) - but no-one had heard of "the UK".

Or his point was that, his (paid by us) trip to the US to inform the US where the UK was - was a complete failure so he was flagging up the fact that he is planning yet another jolly, again at our expense............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:00 AM

Britain shold be a synonym for the UK, not for England, but many people (both here and abroad) use all three interchangeably. Many other people get very upset by this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:40 AM

I think one of the reasons that people from the US do not venture away from London is they are afraid of driving on the opposite (Note, I did not say wrong ) side of the road from what they were trained to drive. I know the first time I ventured to appempt this feat it was purely because I wanted to see what was out there and without an auto, it is very difficult.   Train travel is somewhat a substiitute, but for United States citizens, this too is pretty foreign. The US is right or wrong, a society based on the auto. I am constantly telling people to go to Gatwick, rent a car and head out into what I feel is the most interesting part of your nation, the small towns villages, etc in the countryside. I am not casting negatives toward London, but in fact a trip to London to "experience" England is like someone coming To New York City and making the assumption that they have "experienced" the United States. I would tell my mudcat friends from the states that a trip to the UK is easy, fun, and if done correstly, very reasonable in terms of money. ONe such trip, I kept careful records of expenses, and I couldn't have gone to Florida any cheaper, including airfare, rental car food and lodging. If anyone wants info, I would love to help you with your plans. pm me, I love to help north Americans break out of the usual vacation plans and do something that will stay with them for the rest of their lives in positive cultural experiewnce. I have made 10 trips to the UK in the last 7 years, so I feel my information is practical and current. By the way, generalizatioons, who needs them?


TODD


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:52 AM

Do you think we can get Dubyah to remove him from power ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Fortunato
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:09 AM

I don't know Snuffy, if Britain = UK, then folks in those other UK countries would be "British"? Oops, is that worms I smell? Maybe I better stick to what I know best. Beer.

Now which beers are UK, which from Great Britain, which are English, which are British and which are from Ireland, Scotland and Wales? Now there are questions worth answering. Or am I a-drift in this thread? Just funnin', cheers, Chance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:19 AM

Now wait a sec, what about Australia, et al. They're "independant," but still recognize the crown and still have Governor Generals. Aren't they part of the UK... or is there some other terminology to refer to the former colonies like these?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:33 AM

surely Howell will be out of a job soon. well we can only hope.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: kendall
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:54 PM

Knowledge is a matter of interest. The problem is kids are not motivated to learn where these countries are. I hate math, so, I cant even figure my fuel milage, but, I love history and geography, so, that's a different story.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:59 PM

Keep in mind: "Young people in Canada and Great Britain fared almost as poorly as those in the U.S. " Nat'l Geographic survey

So, I took the twenty map question test that's on Wolfgang's link. I missed two (I had no idea which religion has the most adherents, and I misplaced Japan) and used process of elimination on a couple of others. Had I taken the 56-question test I'm sure I'd be even more embarrassed. Kind of fun, though.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:46 PM

The United Kingdom is a nation...England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are countries.

I think it'd be closer to accurate to say United Kingdom is a country, England Scotland and Wales are nations, and Northern Ireland is a province.

And Canada, Ausralia etc are kingdoms, but separate ad opposed to united, kingdoms.

Some amazing results in that quiz - only one in two people from the British end knew where the Pacifuc Ocean is. It's not just Americans - and in fact it looks as if Mexico scored even lower, and came bottom of the list.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:53 PM

I took the sample test -- got one wrong, stupid, really -- but that test was easy! If they had shown me a map of the Scandanavian countries and asked me to pick out Sweden, I would have been hard pressed to point to the right one. But the multiple-guess questions were all on other continents!

I thought it particularly ironic that the US scored so low on the question about our own population.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 02:12 PM

McGrath, I think some of the folks in Canada and Australia would be surprised to find out that they are kingdoms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 02:39 PM

my sentiments exactly jimmyt....huh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: GUEST,Charmion at work
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:09 PM

Canada and Australia used to be Dominions, but that's not fashionable any more; sometime in the early 80s Canada dropped the "Dominion of" part from its name. We are still "constitutional monarchies" (not kingdoms, that's sexist) and "parliamentary democracies", for all the good that does us.

The only people I know who say "UK" are frequent travellers, especially people who work in aviation, and recent immigrants referring to visits back home. Forty years ago, the BBC and CBC co-operated on a radio show called "Postmark UK" for ex-patriate Brits, featuring musical requests; that's where I first heard the term, although my father was brought up in England he never used it. My husband does, though; his family emigrated after the war. Perhaps it's a post-war thing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:43 PM

Beers ? ? bears ? ? - Which Country ???
"If you ever come to Wales,
You must try our Brain's strong ales,
If you want to drink on Sunday,
You do have to wait till Monday."

"Have you ever saw,
Have you ever saw,....... etc"


Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: denise:^)
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:48 PM

About which side of the road to drive on--

Y'know, jimmyt, when our singing group arrived in England, we were greeted by one of the tour organizers. He told us that they were trying out a new experiment--buses and trucks were going to drive on the right (opposite of left) side of the road for the next 6 months, and if it worked out okay, cars would switch after that...

And, yes, one of the sopranos spoke up: "But--but--won't they crash?"

There's always someone... ;^)
denise:^)

Exactly the response


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 04:08 PM

Kingdom sexist? So it really ought to be called the UQ instead, for United Queendom? (Rather confusingly my dictionary defines "queendom" as "the kingdom of a queen".)

Whatever one might choose to call it, the constitutional status of Canada and Australia etc at this point is essentially the same as that of the UK (or the UQ if you wish).

What I found odd in that questionnaire wasn't that America came second from bottom. I tend to assume that big countries will always tend to be rather inward looking. If they'd included Russia or China or India I imagine they'd have scored pretty low as well. But what's up with Mexico?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 04:52 PM

Mexico? Poor nutrition combined with inadequate funding for schools (unless you can afford a private school). Just a guess. Mexico is by far the poorest country of the lot they tested, and some parts of Mexica are extremely poor, where eating is a lot bigger concern than geography.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:14 PM

Shambles, Tessa Blackstone is the minister for the arts. Kim Howells is a mere parliamentary under-secretary in the department for culture, media and sport.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:37 PM

At one time I worked with a Mexican man. One day I was complaining about my old car and he brought me short. He said, soberly, Where I come from, if you had four wheels, you were RICH.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:05 PM

I noted that Great Britain tended to score pretty low on this too.

I suspect that Mudcatters generally would tend to score pretty well - even without cheating.

The real fun isn't spotting low scoring countries, but low scoring politicians. Who was the one fom the USA who went to Egypt and adressed their parliment, saying how glad he was to be in Israel?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: maire-aine
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:01 PM

I suppose people have to teach their children geography themselves, if they want it done right. When I was about 9 or 10 years old, my Dad used to tape a big US map and a big world map to the wall, and we'd take turns quizzing each other. I learned all the US state capitols that way and most of the world capitols. Of course that was before all the African nations changed their names and before the Soviet Union broke up. That makes for more countries to remember.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Orac
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:12 AM

I wouldn't have thought it true that Americans don't know what the United Kingdom was. All the American software I have seen has "UK" when you have to select your country .. rather than "England" or "Great Britain". Now .. when it comes to the EU ... you can't blame anyone for not knowing its boundaries. I would imagine that Mr Howells was probably quoting the results of some survey taken in the US. I doubt that he was making it up .. or intending to insult anyone.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:02 AM

Shambles, Tessa Blackstone is the minister for the arts. Kim Howells is a mere parliamentary under-secretary in the department for culture, media and sport.

Who?

Do you mean Baroness Blackstone or Tessa Jowells?

Perhaps you should be telling Dr Howells, he obviously thinks he is responsible.

In fact at the DCMS, they all interchange. Commons questions to Dr Howells on licensing were answered by Richrd Caborn, who deals with sports, when Dr Howells was 'lost in America'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:47 AM

Do you mean Baroness Blackstone or Tessa Jowells?

I meant Tessa Blackstone. I don't see how I could have made it more clear. ("Baroness" is a title, by the way, not a forname.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:17 AM

Jowells, Howells and two Tessas!

Sort it out for yourself http://www.culture.gov.uk/role/index.html

The passage of the Bill through the Lords should be a doddle if we have 'catter's' who are on first name terms with out noble Lords.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:32 AM

That is indeed a strange mix. Start probing Tesssa Jowell's family connections and it starts to get really incestous.

Tessa Blackstone, incidentally, is just one of dozens of unelected ordinary proles, elevated to the peerage so that they could take on government jobs - the hundreds of elected Labour MPs available to him not apparently allowing President Blair quite enough choice. The existence of all these placepeople in the upper house helps ensure that nothing passes through the House of Lords without Blair's say so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 01:10 PM

Dr Howells in the Commons 18 November

It is important that we drive standards up; if we do not we will lose the tourists, including the most important tranche. I am thinking especially of the Americans. We must get them back, and we must keep them.

Is tranche a Welsh word?

On a more serious note. The statement does demonstrate that the Government will take most seriously, any concerns from overseas tourists, especially US ones.

Please help?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 01:40 PM

"Tranche" isn't exactly a respectful word to use. The image is of a slice of something you chew up and swallow.

But Shambles is quite right about the fact that this government (any government in this part of the world actually) will always pay far more attention to a fuss made by Americans, who are potential tourists or potential investors, than it ever will to those of us living here, especially over something like the ban on unlicensed music making.

One point here that might be relevant. At present while there are penalties for proprietors who allow unlicensed music making, there aren't any for the musicians or singers themselves.

But that's due to change. Any one making music or singing in a place which isn't licensed for the purpose is liable to get banged up, if the law goes through un-amended. So if you are planning to come here for your holiday, you don't just need to worry that perhaps you won't be able to find sessions and so forth - if you strike up a song or a tune in a publicly accessible place which doesn't have a licence, you could be in trouble yourself.

So if that makes you think that perhaps there might be a better holiday destination than England or Wales, now is the time to let Kim Howells know about your worries. (And the letters pages of English newspapers also frequently use email letters from America.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 02:48 PM

Carol singing is to be illegal.

These seasonal tidings of great joy, from Hamish Birchall.

Clause 188 of the Licensing Bill establishes that 'premises' means 'any place'.

The only carol singing exempt is that which is 'incidental' to a religious meeting or service (Shedule 1, para 9), or possibly carol singing in private that was not raising money for charity, or not 'for consideration and with a view to profit'. Otherwise carol singing is licensable by virtue of Schedule 1, para 1(1)(a), para 2(e), and para 2(2); and it meets the two necessary conditions in para 1(2)(a) or (b) or (c), and 1(2)(3).

In brief: carol singing, other than as part of a religious service, is a performance of live music in the presence of an audience or spectators; it takes place public or for a section of the public, or in private for charity, or in private for a paying audience; and the 'place' where the singing occurs is 'made available' for the purpose of enabling the singing (i.e. could be your front doorstep!).

Hamish Birchall
020 7267 7700


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 02:48 PM

Phew! What a load of stuff.

Actually anyone reading an advert for visiting the UK or Britian or ... well there, would be very silly indeed if they thought that the London Bus was a North African automobile. Should not the ads themselves tell the vistor to do as suggested above, rent a car and get out into the countryside where they might, if lucky enough to find one, find an alehouse offering 'Brains'. Course that might seem offensive to an American, ooopz, UnitedStatesofNothAmercans person - also known as a 'Yank' in the aforementioned places.

Seriously I think that the whole thing stinks! It's not that I don't enjoy a good pint of ale with local merriments laid on, I simply refuse to have anything to do with 'organised' culture anywhere ever.
What are they going to do? EFDS police arresting folks for singing 'I belong to Glasgow' in a Welsh Pub?

As to emailing UKE papers, what would it achieve? Could not the opposers send spoof emails? Anyway there never was a problem with 'Blighty' Pub Singsongs until the Tories taxed fun itself with the Iron knickered witch of the North banning smilie faces in Crumbsdum.

To avoid getting off at the wrong station Americans should not alight at Shannon or Cardiff or Glasgow, they should instead leap out at London or London or London because 'Yanks' do not know how to use Roundabouts. Will that do it?

Hi lil hackster ..... hehehee hehehhe


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: denise:^)
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 02:59 PM

Oops--
If 'Yanks' don't know how to use roundabouts, we're in trouble; there are two not far from here that I can think of right off!

'Course, we call 'em a "traffic circle," but a roundabout by any other name will still get your car to the other side...

denise:^)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 02:59 PM

Letters intended for publication on the Letters Page of The Times should be e-mailed to
letters@thetimes.co.uk

You can email letters to the Guardian at the following address:
letters@guardian.co.uk,

fax them to 0207 837 4530, or post them to: 119 Farringdon Road, London EC1R 3ER
They do not publish letters where only an email address is supplied; please include a full postal address and a reference to the relevant article. If you do not want your email address published, please say so. They may edit letters.


Daily Telegraph

Letters to the Editor

dtletters@telegraph.co.uk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 04:14 PM

And here is a link to today's Guardian letters - not that there are any letters relevant to this topic today, but it's a way of pointing out that if you get a letter in the paper, it's up there on the net, so you can check they've got it right, even if you don't actually get the paper.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 04:27 PM

The "Merrier days" letter is relevant, to some extent. It refers to Bill Evers' letter and the two-in-a-pub rule. Bill Evers' letter was specifically about the proposed licencing law changes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: GUEST,Tom Hamilton
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:14 AM

English Beer is like having sex in a canoe it's fucking close to water. Along with Aussie Beer.
However I'm not a beer drinker, I'm a teetotler
My brother is an alky, he e's not a beer drinker either he spills most of it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Dr Howells now insults the USA
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 08:02 PM

If you have the time, you can watching the Tuesday 26 November second reading of the Licensing Bill live from the House of Lords on the following site.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/schedularhelp.asp


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 15 July 1:57 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.