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Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna

David Ingerson 27 Sep 02 - 01:52 PM
jeffp 27 Sep 02 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Brían 27 Sep 02 - 02:23 PM
ciarili 28 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,David Ingerson 29 Sep 02 - 11:38 PM
David Ingerson 01 Oct 02 - 07:47 PM
Brían 01 Oct 02 - 08:19 PM
David Ingerson 03 Oct 02 - 06:29 PM
Brían 03 Oct 02 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Philippa 04 Oct 02 - 05:13 AM
Brían 04 Oct 02 - 07:09 AM
David Ingerson 04 Oct 02 - 05:01 PM
Brían 04 Oct 02 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,Philippa 16 Oct 02 - 04:51 PM
David Ingerson 18 Oct 02 - 12:47 PM
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Subject: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: David Ingerson
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:52 PM

I was taken by Solas' Karan Casey's singing of Aililiu na Gamhna on their CD "Sunny Spells and Scattered Showers". However, in doing some research I became aware of the possibility that the rhythms in their performance might have been altered from the traditional performance style. Cait Ni Chonchubhair's version on "Ceolta Gael" and the tune printed in Sean O'Boyle's "The Irish Song Tradition" have quite a different feel to them. The difference, of course, is the dotted (or 6/8) rhythm with which Karen sings it. The others are in even, duple rhythms. Is Karan's dotted rhythm found in the tradition anywhere or is it a product of the music industry's attempt to jazz up an "old traditional song" for the "modern ear"?


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: jeffp
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 02:05 PM

I would guess that it's more a case of Karan jazzing it up for her own style than a nebulous "music industry" plot.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 02:23 PM

I don't think there is necassarily a "plot" either, but I have noticed that there is a preconception that a mainstream audience wouldn't listen to a song sung in a traditional manner. These sorts of songs do seem to frequently break down into a 6/8 rythymn, although they are sung quite freely with vaiations.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: ciarili
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM

I was told this was originally a song folks sang walking up to the sheilings. The syncopation is doubtless a modern interpretation, but I like it and started singing it that way myself! At any rate, if you want to hear it in more of a traditional style, give a listen to the fabulous Cathy Jordan of Dervish.


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: GUEST,David Ingerson
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 11:38 PM

Thanks, Jeff and Brian, for calling me on my objectification of musicians. Of course it is individuals making the decisions to perform for the modern ear. And thanks, Brian, for pointing out that these song can be sung freely. I will look up Cathy's rendition, Ciarili. Thanks for the tip and for the info about the context of the song. I was not attracted to the song when I heard it in its duple form but I'm now learning it in the triple meter. It sure is a pleasure to sing!

David


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: David Ingerson
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 07:47 PM


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: Brían
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 08:19 PM

I am told that this is a Munster song. The woman I have heard sing this song sang it much slower than Karan Casey without a lot of ornamentation. It sounds quite haunting.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: David Ingerson
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 06:29 PM

Thanks, Brian, for the added info. I somehow--don't know how--had the feeling it was from Ulster. An obviously misleading feeling. And I hadn't even thought of the tempo as a stylistic consideration. Duh.

I'm working it up to sing at the concert at the Silver Falls folk music retreat (at Silver Falls State Park, Oregon) put on by the Corvallis folk. It's wonderful weekend of music, singing, and dancing in the old growth hills of Oregon.

David


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: Brían
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 10:14 PM

David,
I'll mention there are tapes which go with the Ceolta Gael books. I think Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill sings this song in Munster Irish if I'm not mistaken. You might want to look for it.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 05:13 AM

Brian, could you be mixing this song up with the Ulster "Seoladh na Gamhna /Na Gamhna Geala" which Tríona sings? I think Nóirín Ní Riain has recorded Aililiú na Gamhna?


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: Brían
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 07:09 AM

Philippa,
I'll look for the tape. I have it somewhere. I don't want to be spreading misinformation.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: David Ingerson
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 05:01 PM

Brian,

Actually my reference was to Cait ni Chonchubhair's version on the Ceolta Gael tape. But you said tapes, plural. Is there more than one?

David


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: Brían
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 06:16 PM

You may have it right, David. I can't find the recording because of multiple moves in the past year.

Gabh mo leithscéal,

Brían


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Subject: RE: Aililiu na Gamhna
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 04:51 PM

According to the cover, the singer of Aililiú na Gamhna on the Ceolta Gael cassette should be Cáit Mhacionnraic.

According to the notes on Ailliliú na Gamhna in "Cuisle an Ceoil" (An Roinn Oideachais, Dublin 1976), this song has the same story as that of the other song I mentioned, Na Gamhna Geala, which Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill has recorded. A woman who has married a rich man is unhappy and remembers the days when she herded the cattle. In some stories, say the notes in "Cuisle an Ceoil", the rich man is a ship's captain. Previous published sources are the Irish journals Éigse iii,4, p.257 & following, and Béaloideas XX, pp.70-71

See also the previous thread with lyrics, translation, names of artists. A search for the word Gamhna finds that thread and ideally additional information would have been added to the old thread rather than a new thread being started.

Additionally, if you do a Google search, you will find other pages bearing the lyrics and also some mp3 sound files


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Subject: RE: Style Req. Aililiu na Gamhna
From: David Ingerson
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 12:47 PM

Thanks for the additional info, Philippa. Apparently I did not search effectively--still learning the ropes.

Joe, is it worth your while to subsume this thread to the other on the same subject? (Do you actually read all these, Joe, or should I email you directly about something like this?)

Now I'm more confused than ever about who sings on Ceolta Gael. On my slip notes it says Cait Ni Chonchubhair, but on the tape itself it says Cait Mhac Ionnraic. I don't have any other recordings of either of them so I don't know who it is. (Or are they the same person?!)

David


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