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Origins: Town of Old Dolores(James Grafton Rogers)

Mark Ross 10 Sep 02 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,guest 10 Sep 02 - 10:12 PM
GUEST,guest 10 Sep 02 - 10:54 PM
GUEST,guest 10 Sep 02 - 11:02 PM
GUEST,Q 18 May 03 - 04:15 PM
pattyClink 03 Aug 21 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,# 05 Aug 21 - 04:14 PM
Rex 05 Aug 21 - 04:42 PM
Rex 05 Aug 21 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,# 05 Aug 21 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,pattyClink 05 Aug 21 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,pattyClink 05 Aug 21 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,# 05 Aug 21 - 08:15 PM
GUEST,pattyClink 05 Aug 21 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,# 05 Aug 21 - 08:52 PM
leeneia 06 Aug 21 - 12:52 PM
Rex 06 Aug 21 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,# 06 Aug 21 - 01:43 PM
Joe Offer 08 Aug 21 - 03:02 AM
Rex 08 Aug 21 - 03:41 PM
leeneia 10 Aug 21 - 02:33 PM
Joe Offer 10 Aug 21 - 08:09 PM
pattyClink 10 Aug 21 - 09:45 PM
GerryM 10 Aug 21 - 10:52 PM
leeneia 11 Aug 21 - 01:26 AM
GUEST 11 Aug 21 - 11:05 AM
leeneia 11 Aug 21 - 11:46 AM
leeneia 12 Aug 21 - 09:12 AM
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Subject: Old Delores, James Grafton Rogers
From: Mark Ross
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 09:03 PM

Looking for a printout of te words, I'm having a senior moment, or what they call in California, A Rolling Blackout.

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Delores, James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 10:12 PM

The Utah Phillips lyrics are at Old Dolores
I will check it against the original Rogers 1912 version and put it here if it is not already posted in one of the Cowboy song threads.

Thread #13283   Message #108579
Posted By: Susan A-R
25-Aug-99 - 10:38 PM
Thread Name: Favourite cowboy songs
Subject: Lyr Add: OLD DOLORES^^ (Utah Phillips)

Utah Phillips sings a lovely one called The Town of Old Dolores, or some such thing. Tis one of my favorites.

OLD DOLORES
(Utah Phillips)

In the country down below where the little pinions grow
It's nearly always half a day to water
There stood a little town where the crick come tumblin' down
From the mesa where she surely hadn't oughta
The streets were bright with candle light, the whole town joined the chorus
And every man in sight let his cattle drift at night
Just to mosey to the town of old Dolores

Well things would kinda spin till the sun come up again
Like the back of some old yaller prairie wagon.
And show ya, dim and red, maybe half a hundred head
of our cattle ponies standin' rains a draggin.
The red mud walls, the waterfalls
The whole wide world before us
??? The town of old Dolores

Now the dance hall girls are pooled in the plaza in the cool.
It's there he used to meet her 'neath a willow
And sure sometimes a girl gives a fella's heart a whirl
When the same's been using saddle for a pillow
The wide eyed stars, the long cigars,
The drinks that Joe poured for us
if there's any little well, down within the gates of hell
You can be the boys have called her old Dolores


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE TOWN OF OLD DOLORES
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 10:54 PM

Utah Phillips changed it. Here it is from Katie Lee's book, Ten Thousand Goddam Cattle.

THE TOWN OF OLD DOLORES

In the country down blow where the little piñons grow,
And it's nearly always half a day to water
There used to stand a town where a crick come tumblin' down
From a mesa where she sure hadn't oughter;
Her streets were bright with candle light,
The whole town joined a chorus,
And every man in sight let his cattle drift at night,
Just to mosey to the town of Old Dolores;

And the scented smoke that came
From the piñon wood aflame
Smelt like incense to our Lady of Mañana.
But the 'dobe walls are gone
And the goat bells at dawn
Ain't a jinglin'in the streets of Old Dolores.
And the strings of peppers hung
On the house fronts in the sun,
Blazin' red as some young puncher's new bandana.
There us't to stand a town,
Where a crick come tumblin' down,
From a mesa where she surely hadn't oughta.
And if there's any little well
Down inside the Gates of hell
Why I know the boys have named it Old Dolores.
The greaser girls that fool
On the Plaza- in the cool
There was one, I us't to meet her by a willer,
But the friendly lights are dark,
And the coyote's lonesome bark
Is the only music now in Old Dolores.

I know this was posted, in better form, in a thread here, but it takes too much time to find anything posted in about the last two years.
Hope this helps. I have a little piece of property in the Ortiz Mountains with a high point from which I can see the old Trail; Old Dolores would be visible from its candle and coal oil flames in the night, but now the lights of Santa Fé add a reddish tinge to the sky, the city encroaching ever closer as the rolling country is divided into little ranchitas and "estates," and the imagination doesn't stretch out as it us't to.
The crick tumblin' down from where it hadn't oughta is a figment of Rogers imagination, but there were springs nearby.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Delores, James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:02 PM

More information in thread 13471: Favorite Cowboy Songs (with a little more on Old Dolores).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Delores, James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 18 May 03 - 04:15 PM

Original poem by James Grafton Rogers, including extra verse by George A. H. Fraser, from "A Golden Treasury," James Grafton Rogers, posted in thread 13471, 14 Mar '03, Favorite Cowboy Songs, Second Edition: Old Dolores

Also posted in that thread is Rogers "Double-Breasted Mansion," also from his "A Golden Treasury."


Thread #13471   Message #623061
Posted By: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
07-Jan-02 - 09:43 PM
Thread Name: Favourite Cowboy Songs-Second Edition
Subject: Lyr Add: THE TOWN OF OLD DOLORES

Just been re-reading parts of Katie Lee's "Ten Thousand Goddam Cattle." The book with its rich collection of songs and stories is woven around a search for Dolores, a village that has completely disappeared, but was located southeast of Santa Fé in the Ortiz Mts. of the old Ortiz grant. The Santa Fé Trail passed close by.
I am looking for James Grafton Rogers' 1912 original of the song, "THE TOWN OF OLD DOLORES," pub. much later in "A Golden Treasury," by the University Club of Denver. Does anyone have or know of a copy?
I still have a little piece of land there, with the old mine my grandfather worked for a time. Lots of searching was done for a lode in those hills, but profits were few. No rich ores have ever been found in that type of volcanic emplacement, but gem quality turquoise once was plentiful in the old Tiffany and other claims. The area's mining is dead. Large pseudo-pueblo homes built by rich football-players, chip moguls, etc., are encroaching on the picturesque area. Large quantities of turquoise were mined there by the Indians in pre-Spanish days, much of it carried to the Valley of Mexico and the Aztecs (verified by analyses).

The version by Utah Phillips is posted in Part one of this thread, Here
Katie Lee gives part of the 1st verse, with music, slightly different from the way Utah sang it. I would like to see the version printed by Rogers. Katie Lee says only three recordings were made with Rogers' consent; by Utah Phillips, Oscar Brand and Katie Lee.
In following up the story of Dolores, Katie Lee scattered additional lines from the song on several pages, some lines different from or additional to those posted by Susan A_R in '99 from Phillips' recording:

All the strings of peppers hung
On the'dobes in the sun,
Blazin' red as some young puncher's new bandana,
And the scented smoke that came
From the piñon wood aflame
Smelt like incense to Our Lady of Mañana;
The scarlet lips, the clinkin' chips!
The drinks Ramon poured for us!

There us't to stand a town,
Where a crick come tumbling down,
From a mesa where she surely hadn't ought'a.
And if there's any little well
Down inside the Gates of Hell
Why I know the boys have named it, Old Dolores.

The greaser girls that fool
On the plaza - in the cool
There was one, I us't to meet her by a willer,
But the friendly lights are dark,
And the coyote's lonesome bark
Is the only music now in Old Dolores.

But the 'dobe walls are gone
And the goat bells in the dawn
Ain't a jinglin' in the streets of Old Dolores.
And the coyote's lonesome bark
Is the only music now in Old Dolores.

Lines gathered from pp. 96, 97, 183-185; I hope in the right order.

If there was a waterfall in these hills, it was pre- pre-historic. There are wells, OK for cattle, but not fit for human consumption because of the mineral content.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: pattyClink
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 11:12 AM

There is a version of this that Katie Lee sang later in her life, and it seems a little more coherent than some of the others. "guests" post above seems to have some cut-paste repeats in it. And the one in the Digital Tradition seems to be missing verse 3.

So here's her version as I hear it off the Youtube recording. You could make an argument that some verses might be better switched, but I like it. And if someone out there has a printed source, let's have it!


Old Dolores

In the country down below where the little pinons grow,
It's nearly always half a day to water.
There stood a little town where the creek come tumbling down
From the mesa where she surely hadn't oughter.
The streets were bright with candlelight;
The whole town joined the chorus;
And every man in sight let his cattle drift at night,
Just to mosey to the town of old Dolores.

Well things'd kind of spin 'til the sun come up again,
Like the back of some old yellow prairie wagon,
And show you dim and red maybe half a hundred head
Of our saddle ponies standing reins a-draggin'.
The red mud walls, the waterfalls,
The whole wide world before us;
Now the 'dobe walls are gone, the goats' bell in the dawn
Ain't a-jingling in the streets of old Dolores.

VERSE 3:
All the strings of peppers hung on the vigas in the sun,
Blazin' red as some young puncher's new bandanna;
And the scented smoke that came from the pinon wood aflame
Smelt like incense to Our Lady of Manana.
The clinkin' chips, and the scarlet lips,
and the drinks Ramon poured for us,
But the friendly lights are dark, and the coyot's lonesome bark,
Is the only music now in old Dolores.


The dance hall girls would fool in the plaza in the cool,
It's there he used to meet her by a willow;
But I guess that any girl gives a feller's heart a whirl
When the same's been using saddles fer a piller.
The wide-eyed stars, the long cigars,
The drinks at Joe Portfora's.
If there's any little well down within the gates of hell,
I know the boys have called it old Dolores.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnJLgILX6OY


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 04:14 PM

https://books.google.ca/books?id=exNzjhFtiiUC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=%22If+there%27s+any+little+well+down+within+the+gates+of+hell,+d


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: Rex
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 04:42 PM

The earliest published form of this song is in A Golden Songster, University Club, 1953. If it wasn't printed by his efforts, it was by his consent as he was a member. Note that it is simply titled, Dolores.



E-7            DOLORES
       By James Grafton Rogers          Key G
(Air: "The Foggy, Foggy Dew"-- with variations)

1. In the country down below
   Where the little piñons grow,
   And it's nearly allus half a day to water,
   There us't to stand a town,
   Where a crick come tumbling down,
   From a mesa where she surely hadn't ought'a.
   Her streets were bright
   With candlelight,
   The whole town joined the chorus,
   And every man in sight
   Let his cattle drift all night
   Just to mosey to the town of Old Dolores.

2. Then things just kind of spin
   'Till the sun comes up agin,
   Like the back of some old prairie wagon,
   And would show you dim and red
   Maybe half a hundred head
   Of our saddle ponies standing
   Reins a-draggin'.
   The red mud walls,
   The water falls,
   The whole wide world before us.
   But the 'dobe walls are gone
   And the goat bells in the dawn
   Ain't a jingling in the streets of Old Dolores.

    (Additional Verse by George A. H. Fraser)
   And the strings of peppers hung
   On the house-fronts in the sun,
   Blazin' red as some young puncher's new ban-
   dana,
   And the scented smoke that came
   From the pinon wood aflame
   Smelt like incense to Our Lady of Manana;
   The scarlet lips, the clickin' chips!
   The drinks Ramon poured for us!
   But the friendly lights are dark,
   And the coyote's lonesome bark
   Is the only music now in Old Dolores.

3. The greaser girls that fool
   On the Plaza-- in the cool,
   There was one, I us't to meet her by a willow,
   But I guess most any girl
   Gives a feller's head a whirl
   When the sames been using saddles for a piller.
   The wide-eyed stars,
   The long segars,
   The smiles that waited for us.
   And if there's any little well
   Down inside the Gates of Hell,
   Why I know the boys have named it
   Old Dolores.

Published in "A Golden Treasury," University Club of Denver, 1953 pg. 30-31


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: Rex
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 04:51 PM

The earliest form of the song is a type written paper with hand written corrections I found in the James Grafton Rogers files in the archives of History Colorado. It is this form of the song I used to record it on my CD, Ladies' Choice. Katie Lee coached me in the recording of it but did not fully approve of the final outcome. She cared about the song and was a tough master. I valued her opinion.

Old Dolores

In the country down below where the little pinons grow,
   And it's half a day to water,
There used to stand a town, where a creek come tumblin' down,
   From a mesa where it surely hadn't oughter!
Its streets were bright with candle-light,
   The whole town joined a chorus!
And every man in sight left his cattle drift at night,
   Just to mosey to the town of Old Dolores!

Then things 'd kind-a spin, till the sun come up agin,
   Like the back o' some old yellow prairie wagon,
An' showed you, dim and red, maybe half a hundred head
   Of our sleepy saddle ponies, reins a-draggin'!
The pink mud walls, the water-falls,
   The whole wide world before us!
But the 'dobe walls are gone, and the goat-bells in the dawn
   Ain't a-jinglin' in the streets of Old Dolores!

Oh, the greaser-girls 'd fool on the plaza in the cool;
   An' there's one -- I ain't forgotten her mantilla!
But I know most any girl gets a puncher's head to whirl,
   When the same's been usin' saddles fur a pillow!
The big-eyed stars, the long cigars,
   The smiles that waited for us!
If there's any little well, down inside the gates o' Hell,
   Why, I guess the boys have named it Old Dolores!

Apr. 18, 1910


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 05:05 PM

https://lucidmusico.blogspot.com/?download,pnJLgILX6OY

I don't know if that is help or hindrance.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 08:02 PM

Thanks Rex! An authoritative version!! Had a feeling that Portfora line was bogus.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 08:04 PM

Guest, I got 'not allowed' on that Google link, but nice to see a few pages from that elusive book anyway.   And the Youtube link I'm glad is posted, it is a great rendition of the song, but those of us learning it need to go with the printed lyrics from "Golden Treasury" I think.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 08:15 PM

pattyClink: Here's a c/p of what was printed on that link.

" From a 2005 interview on the "Calling All Cowboys" radio program, broadcast on 88.9 KPOV, High Desert Community Radio, Bend Oregon. Katie Lee is backed up by Jim Cornelius on guitar.

In her marvelous book, "Ten Thousand Goddam Cattle: A History of the American Cowboy in Song, Story, and Verse," Katie included the following letter from James Grafton Rogers, who wrote the lyrics to "Old Delores."

Dear Miss Lee:
Your letter of April 27th on the song Old Dolores was forwarded to me during two months travels and I have just returned. I am sorry for the delay. I wrote the words to the song Old Dolores about 1912 and to an adaptation of The Weaver (or Foggy Foggy Dew as you suggest). I enclose a copy here. There was an article on it a year or so ago in the Rocky Mountain News. George A. H. Fraser, a retired lawyer in Denver, wrote an additional verse sometimes printed, as in the song book of the University Club of Denver called the "Golden Treasury", but not in this copy I'm sending you. The song has been widely sung over radio but not as widely as another song of mine about the same date, "The Santa Fe Trail." "Dolores" was suggested by a village, now I think deserted, in the Ortiz Mountains of New Mexico, southeast of Santa Fe. It was a well-known cattle drive point in the 1860s and 70s. A movie short was taken on the site, and I saw it in South America with Spanish words!

Sincerely, James Grafton Rogers

"Calling All Cowboys" is available for streaming 24/7/365. There is a new show every Tursday PM (Pacific). http://kpov-od.streamguys.us/calling_all_cowboys_new_56k.mp3 "

Also there is an mp3 and mp4 of Katie Lee singing "Old Delores"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 08:22 PM

Awesome!   That pins down the writing date to 1912, and the location of the town too! It is where Larry Joba had suggested.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 08:52 PM

It seems that Katie Lee was a bit confused as to the date of the song if the following is anything to go by.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnJLgILX6OY

Incidentally, it's the same mp3 or mp4 that was on the link you couldn't access.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: leeneia
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 12:52 PM

I found two recordings of this on YouTube, and I've written down the music Rex Rideout uses. It's interesting music, which changes from 6/8 to 3/4 and back. And it has that southwestern tonality which makes you think of wide-open arid country.

I think I'll do it for Monday's singaround. Minus the greasers.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: Rex
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 01:37 PM

Ah #, I enjoy Chuckaroo's Calling All Cowboys but somehow missed this. Just a little bit more of Katie is a treasure. Thank you for posting it. While looking through Rogers' files in the archives I found a letter from Katie to him asking for permission to record Old Dolores. Don't doubt that the hair raised up on the back of my neck some. I would have asked Katie what she thought of it anyway but finding that note clinched it. She loved Rogers and called him "Pappy". When it came my time to record it I also asked Rogers' grandson and namesake, James Rogers Hart for his approval. I first played it for he and his wife on the parapet of Bent's Old Fort. When I do songs I try to get to the roots of them and Katie sure did that with this one. Her book, 10000 Goddam Cattle is a wonder. Katie preserved within its pages a wide range of the early cowboy songs but a thread that runs through the entire book is her search for Old Dolores with all the pitfalls and dead ends but she found it and Rogers too. I keep extra copies of her book to give to folks that might give a hoot.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Town of Old Delores (James Grafton Rogers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 01:43 PM

What amazes me is the confluence of events that led to the two getting in touch with each other. You're doing important work--in case no one tells you--so thank you from an old fart in the frozen north.


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Subject: ADD: Old Dolores/Delores (James Grafton Rogers)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Aug 21 - 03:02 AM

I don't know if Patty Clink used the same 2005 Katie Lee recording that I used, but we have some differences. Here's what I hear.

OLD DOLORES
(James Grafton Rogers)
(as sung by Katie Lee, 2005)

In the country down below where the little piñons grow,
And it's nearly always half a day to water.
There used to stand a town where a creek come tumbling down
From the mesa where she surely hadn't oughter.
Her streets was bright with candlelight;
And the whole town joined the chorus;
And every man in sight let his cattle drift at night,
Just to mosey to the town of old Dolores.

Then things'd sorta spin until that sun come up again,
Like the back of some old yellow prairie wagon,
And it'd show you dim and red maybe half a hundred head
Of our saddle ponies standing reins a-draggin'.
The red mud walls, the waterfalls,
And the whole wide world before us;
But the 'dobe walls are gone, and the goat bells in the dawn
Ain't a-jingling in the streets of old Dolores.

VERSE 3:
All the strings of peppers hung on the vegas (?) in the sun,
Blazin' red as some young puncher's new bandana;
And the scented smoke that came from the piñon wood aflame
Smelt like incense to Our Lady of Mañana.
The clinkin' chips, and the scarlet lips,
and the drinks Ramon poured for us,
But the friendly lights are dark, and the coyote's lonesome bark,
Is the only music now in old Dolores.


All the greaser girls would fool around the plaza in the cool,
And there's one I used to meet her by a willow;
But I reckon any girl'd give a feller's heart a whirl
When he's only had his saddle fer a piller.
The wide-eyed stars, and the sweet guitars,
The drink Ramon poured for us..
If there's any little well down inside the gates of hell,
I know the boys have named her old Dolores.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnJLgILX6OY

Katie Lee says that James Grafton Rogers was Assistant Secretary of State during the Hoover Administration


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Subject: RE: Origins: Town of Old Delores(James Grafton Rogers)
From: Rex
Date: 08 Aug 21 - 03:41 PM

#, I thank you for your contributions to this forum.

Joe, Rogers was involved in the Hoover Administration. The man wore many hats in his considerable life. You can learn more of that in the book, Wartime Washington: The Secret OSS Journal Of James Grafton Rogers 1942-1943.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Town of Old Dolores(James Grafton Rogers)
From: leeneia
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 02:33 PM

Somebody said upthread that the original first verse spoke of a spring, not a creek tumbling down, and that makes sense to me. Water from rare rain and snowfalls infiltrating the mesa and emerging at its base as a spring seems natural. So that's how I sang it at yesterday's singaround.

I also changed this:

The red mud walls, the waterfalls,
And the whole wide world before us;

To "canyon walls." Two reasons: if we have backed off from the town and are looking at the wide world, then the red mud walls of town have been left behind. And if there are waterfalls, we needs cliffs for them to fall off of. Said cliffs would be part of the canyons, which can be carved into the sides of the mesa.

Two: 'red mud walls' is harder to sing.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Town of Old Dolores(James Grafton Rogers)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 08:09 PM

Leeneia, I am always reluctant to change the lyrics of songs. My job here is to make sure the lyrics we have are authentic, that they come from an early or original source or at least someone authoritative.
Here we have versions by Katie Lee and Utah Phillips. It would be nice to find a documented text from the author himself.

I dunno. I like the concept of red mud walls because I saw them all over New Mexico, and they go back to the times before Columbus.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Town of Old Dolores(James Grafton Rogers)
From: pattyClink
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 09:45 PM

Joe, up above, Rex unearthed a good printed version closest to Rogers, regardless of what Katie or Utah did later, see the post above dated thusly:

+++++
From: Rex - PM
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 04:42 PM

The earliest published form of this song is in A Golden Songster, University Club, 1953. If it wasn't printed by his efforts, it was by his consent as he was a member. Note that it is simply titled, Dolores.
+++++

And yes, I think especially when you have a fairly bona fide text like this, from a pretty erudite author, you need an awfully strong reason to meddle with it. I will agree with Leeniea about dropping the 'greaser' as most singers have been doing.

As far as topography: Mesas are often convex outward and may not feature canyons. As far as the creek tumbling down, there are indeed waterfalls in the arid and canyon country parts of Utah I visited. There is even some fellow who has made a life's vocation of tracking down the hundreds of waterfalls in New Mexico. Many of them are 'ephemeral', as so are many of the creeks ephemeral, coming to life only after a big rain.   A spring might be more likely, but I don't know if it's worth a rewrite. What do you call a spring if it feeds a little creek at the base of the drop, seems like it graduates to creek status.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Town of Old Dolores(James Grafton Rogers)
From: GerryM
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 10:52 PM

Joe, I think "vegas" in your verse 3 should be "vigas", as in Patty Clink's post. Wikipedia sez,

"Vigas are wooden beams used in the traditional adobe architecture of the American Southwest, especially New Mexico. In this type of construction, the vigas are the main structural members carrying the weight of the roof to the load-bearing exterior walls. The exposed beam ends projecting from the outside of the wall are a defining characteristic of Pueblo architecture and Spanish Colonial architecture in New Mexico and often replicated in modern Pueblo Revival architecture."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Town of Old Dolores(James Grafton Rogers)
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 01:26 AM

I disagree about lyrics. I don't want to use my time and my breath to further attitudes I think opprobrious. When the cowboy refers to the prostitute (probably an Indian teenager with little choice)as a greaser, I consider that opprobrious, and I won't sing it. I consider the third verse TMI, and I suspect Fraser wrote the verse about the peppers, etc to replace it.

I also don't sing words nobody knows because they interrupt the flow of the story. I might take time to explain ahead of time, or I might not have the chance. In this song, I think the image of the peppers drying in the sun is picturesque and worth keeping. The word viga, not so much.

Rex, the spring wasn't a re-write, it was original.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Town of Old Dolores(James Grafton Rogers)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 11:05 AM

First off, spring was not original, if the printed words say:
"Where a crick come tumbling down,"

You sing the song however you please, but I'd rather we would stretch out heads to use a few Spanish words for a song about a place inhabited by Spanish people long ago.   So many people think Murca was settled by Anglos only, and Mexicans are usurpers crossing 'our' border. In reality the West was inhabited by Indians, Spaniards, and Mexicans long before we arrived on the scene. I don't want to clean up all our songs so they use only 'our' words.

I don't recall anyone recommending keeping 'greasers', it was apparently acceptable slang to Utah's generation for Mexican or other poor folk, but not to later ones, and Katie did not use it.

And I also don't see anything in the song about prostitutes, so where did that all come from? Somehow a Mexican girl must be a prostitute?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Town of Old Dolores(James Grafton Rogers)
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 11:46 AM

If it's all so acceptable, why is there an old Dolores in Hell?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Town of Old Dolores(James Grafton Rogers)
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 09:12 AM

Joe, I understand your position. You are the archivist, and it's good to have the original somewhere. Your feelings are like mine about tunes. I work hard to find the original tune of a song because who knows how different and fascinating it might be from how we sing today?


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