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Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!

GUEST,Ewan McVicar 08 Aug 02 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 08 Aug 02 - 03:29 AM
DougR 08 Aug 02 - 02:35 AM
katlaughing 07 Aug 02 - 11:09 PM
catspaw49 07 Aug 02 - 10:39 PM
Bobert 07 Aug 02 - 09:17 PM
DougR 07 Aug 02 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,Ewan McVicar 07 Aug 02 - 04:18 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:15 PM
harpgirl 07 Aug 02 - 11:33 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 10:46 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM
katlaughing 07 Aug 02 - 09:41 AM
Big Mick 07 Aug 02 - 09:28 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 02 - 08:55 AM
harpgirl 07 Aug 02 - 07:42 AM
Kaleea 07 Aug 02 - 03:23 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:54 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 07 Aug 02 - 01:47 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:13 AM
harpgirl 07 Aug 02 - 01:00 AM
Big Mick 07 Aug 02 - 12:53 AM
NicoleC 07 Aug 02 - 12:36 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 12:21 AM
NicoleC 07 Aug 02 - 12:20 AM
Big Mick 07 Aug 02 - 12:07 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 12:06 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 02 - 12:01 AM
katlaughing 06 Aug 02 - 11:45 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 11:39 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:34 PM
DougR 06 Aug 02 - 11:27 PM
artbrooks 06 Aug 02 - 10:41 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 10:14 PM
NicoleC 06 Aug 02 - 09:20 PM
artbrooks 06 Aug 02 - 08:15 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 08:06 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 07:59 PM
artbrooks 06 Aug 02 - 07:48 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 06:37 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 06:25 PM
Big Mick 06 Aug 02 - 06:10 PM
artbrooks 06 Aug 02 - 05:57 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,The Banjoest 06 Aug 02 - 03:04 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 02:59 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 02:33 PM
katlaughing 06 Aug 02 - 02:21 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 02:19 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 02:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 04:49 AM

Ah, I see. For some of the protagonists at least it's just about having fun. And here was me thinking you were serious. [The thread title misled me.] I forgot, debates are a way of passing the time when there is nothing worthwhile you feeling like doing, and scoring a few points to your own satisfaction in the process, ending with feeling cleverer than the other person. Oh, well, back to work.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:29 AM

Guest I concur, you are now the victum.

It is desperation when they must dash to the dastardly ploy of attacking the speaker. I believe it is known as:

Fallacies of Presumption

Ignoratio Elenchi (Irrelevant Conclusion)

Argumentum ad Hominem (Attack of the Person)

Seeking soltice they have ignored the facts and returned an emotional rebuttal. This is known as an "If you can't win, insult them directly" argument. The end result is that your attackers are now mad at each other, with the level of emotional diatribe escalating at each of their faltering footfalls.

This has been joyous show!

Thank You,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:35 AM

Hmmm. Maybe we should figure out how to handle trolls!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:09 PM

Amen to that, Spawdarlin'...made me long for the old days when we had real debates...on guns, vietnam, orange order, diversity...they were heated but damn it they were principled and people put their own names to them; when only the occassional post was from some anon-e-mouse wanker instead of every other.

kat


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 10:39 PM

Ya' know, I've been busy on the home front and not on the 'Cat much lately and when I read this crap I have no regrets. An anonymous troll wants credentials...............Christallmighty, gimmee a fuckin' break.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 09:17 PM

And I'm soorrreee, too, there big guy. Come on over and get a big ol' bobert hug....

Danged, Doug. Guest was like a bad case of _________, as far as I can see. I'd rather wrestler with you ani day of the week. At least with you, I know who I'm wresling with and you ain't like mercury, slipping and sliding to one side or the other. Yep, my friend, you're always in the same place.

Whew! The guy about wored my bony butt outm, Dougie...

And I'm sure that poor ol' Big Mick, as well as others, is a tad wored out hisself, da boot.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 08:03 PM

Great cartoon!

Bobert: Did I call you a liberal? Sorrrrreeeeee! :>) Glad you folks finally got the nameless one's number.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:18 PM

Fascinating reading.
Never met so many people who were righteously right about so much in all my born days.
I still cannot understand why people so sure of themselves do not give their right names, though. I'm proud of mine, and I'm not sure of very much.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:15 PM

Actually, I posted the song, but it is a different guest who posted the cartoon harpgirl.

Thanks for fixing the line breaks JC!


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:33 AM

That's a very fine prosocial response GUEST. The song is brill and I liked the cartoon. I thought that myself when I read Billy would go to war. And I still like him but I like Jimmy Carter better! BTW, do you know MS Rubin in San Francisco?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 10:46 AM

A cute political cartoon from the New York Post

http://www.nypost.com/delonas/2002/08/08042002.jpg

link fixed by JoeClone


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Subject: ADD: Talking Unamerican Blues^^^
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM

That is a mighty fine list of "last word" posts. Here is mine...

TALKIN' UNAMERICAN BLUES
Lyrics as recorded by BETTY SANDERS, vocal, with JERRY SILVERMAN, g, Hootenanny Records (Hoot 103-B), c. 9 Jun 1952 (re-released on Folkways FN-2513)
reprinted in RONALD D. COHEN & DAVE SAMUELSON, Songs For Political Action (accompanying book), Bear Family Records, 1996, p. 201

Early one morning got an invitation
To help Congress out in an investigation;
Man came around a-knocking at my door,
Give me a paper that said what for.
Subpoena, looking for Un-Americans;
Look in the mirror.

Now if you want an invite, here' s what to do,
You got to talk with peace, sing it too;
Visit your neighbors, hear what they say,
Before you know it, you're on your way.
Fare paid! Ride in style. First class!

Well, you brush your hair and you dress real pretty,
You got a date with the Un-American Committee;
Take the stand, they swear you in,
Old Man Wood is wearing a grin.
He thinks he's got you, got a short memory.
Can't recall what happened when they stuck a
Union label on his cantankerous investigation.

"Are you now, or have ever been,
Were you ever sympathetic or interested in...
When did you start, how long did it last,
Tell us all about your interesting past.
Answer yes or no."

"Did you go to a meeting, did you sign a petition,
Did you ever hold an executive position?
Did you make a speech, carry a card,
Did you ever hold a conference in your back yard?"
Fifth Amendment!

Now they were asking questions, but we wouldn't buy it,
Like those union brothers did it, it was time for us to try it;
Added up the facts and the figures historical,
Asked them a question which sounds a bit rhetorical.
Mister Wood -- Are you now or have you ever been a bastard?
You don't have to answer that question if you think
It might tend to incriminate you.

Now Mister Wood, get out of your rut,
Do you swear to tell the truth and nothin' but?
Well, Wood said he would, but we knew he wouldn't
And even if he would, well he damn well couldn't,
But that's Congress for you,
Week in, week out, weak all over.

Now Wood couldn't rest on his laurels,
He tried his best to corrupt our morals;
He talked about Philbrick, Budenz too,
"They're getting theirs, how about you?"

Now I like chicken, I like duck
And I don't object to making a buck.
But I ain't got wings and sure can't fly,
But there's one bird that I won't buy:
That's Stoolpigeon! I'm strictly in the market for doves of peace!

It is known that birds of a feather
Have a habit of flockin' together.
So listen, McCarran, Wood and the rest,
You can't use us to feather your nest.
That's strictly for birds!

So here's the moral without a doubt,
If you want to be free, you've got to sing out.
Sing it loud, sing it strong,
People are singing a freedom song!
That's my music! Solid with a freedom beat!
So keep singing, and keep fighting!

^^^ (click)

breaks fixed by JoeClone


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 09:41 AM

Ahem...Mickdarlin'...over at the Temple of the Oracle, whilst getting ready for the long-dormant Fertility Rites, like Cassandra I called it way back at the beginning and got grief...let your fingers do the walking and then disparage others...how predicatable and childish...ah, well, such is the lot of a far-see-er...**BG**


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 09:28 AM

There ya go, save face by claiming some sort of victory. But while you are patting yourself on the back, remember. I called that you would do this. When your tactics failed, I knew that you would claim this. You are so easy and so predictable.

Instead of all this, why not take some time to go out and put yourself on the line where it counts?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 08:55 AM

GUEST: Works for me. Yep, you just keep your righteos self right there in front of your pudder. Heck, I don't want no one shot because some fool in the crowd thought it would be a hoot to throw a bowling ball thru a window. So, my friend, you and your bowling ball can sit right there where I'm safe, thank you...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:42 AM

Good morning garg. Ah come on, now. You know me better than that. This chick (or maybe a clever male) hasn't affected my esteem at all. I haven't directly engaged with her because I smelled psychopath a long time ago! I respect the dangers of dealing with psychopaths! I have years of experience!

loved your poem....now off to the trenches, fighting the evils of mental illness!! tra la! harpie


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 03:23 AM

War? Is there a war? Why didn't somebody tell me? I guess I was too busy playing music. "An eye for an eye, and another eye for another eye until ALL ARE BLIND AND CANNOT SEE." . . . "All we are saying is give peace a chance. All we are saying is give peace a chance. All we are saying is give peace a chance. all we are saying is give peace a chance. All we are saying is give peace a chance. All we are saying is . . ."


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:54 AM

Lovely little poem there Gargoyle. I'm sorry too harpgirl. But whether you all claim to like it or not, this thread is now over 100, and the only other one still floating about in the forum, ever so polite and rational and safe, is sinking lower and lower, with around 30 or so posts. If all of you are so morally and ethically opposed to my tactics here, why keep posting to this thread and debating with me?

Hmmmm?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:47 AM

Poor Harpieego-bruised and esteem-wilted retreats to the corner to pout.

Good night, sleep tight,
don't let the beg-bugs bite.
And if they do, bite them in two
A piece for me and piece for you.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:13 AM

We are crazy, Nicole. Crazy enough to tirade in the faces of people who stand by and do nothing about the coming war.

So, does that make me as crazy as the men driving the war train? You decide. Me, I'll risk alienating people, because even though my ranting (and let's not exaggerate what I'm actually doing here--this is the internet, I'm not actually up in anyone's face screaming) throws them off balance initially, it at least gets people talking and thinking about the issues.

You, for instance, went out on the internet looking for more health statistics on Iraq in the post-sanction years, didn't you? So you could discuss it with artbrooks? And there are some people actually going to the websites I'm giving links to, and they can read at their leisure about some of the issues I've raised.

Bobert, for instance, says he went and read a few of the sites I posted, and even joined some organizations as a result of his reading.

I'd say that is pretty good for "inciting" and "trolling" in three days time.

So, if you want to believe what I'm doing is wholly ineffective, that is your prerogative, of course. But I do see it differently. I see people leaping out to challenge me, sadly, rather than the ideas I'm here to defend. But even despite their attempts to make me the subject of the thread, instead of the war, I've managed to provoke enough of you to go a little further than you would have had you all just had a nice, friendly thread where everyone agreed to agree or agreed to disagree, and keep things safe and polite.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:00 AM

Guest, if you were a better communicator, the focus of this thread would be the possibility of war as I intended it to be, and not your behavior! Goodnight, and kat and Mick, it is really not worth figuring out, I think. hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:53 AM

You fancy yourself a pro, but you really are quite amateurish. That feeble attempt to somehow make it seem that you are agitating to cause us to leap out just shows, once more, how deluded you are. The simple fact is that in this thread, like the Memorial Day thread, you presume to tell us all about what we don't know. And when facts are presented to you that don't support your neat little academic "there I have it all figured out" attitude, you just ignore them and march on with your rant and citations. You are exposed, and you don't see it. It's called blinders.

You want facts? Let us review. Your activism is all in your mind. I am sure you attend the odd rally, but you do nothing to effect change. My guess is that you spout the yak, and go home never risking anything. Bobert cited his background and you responded with a bunch of websites and vitriol about HIS attitude. I have challenged you time and again about what it is that you have done to "get your hands dirty" and your responses are more websites, some research on backgrounds, and more vitriol. In another thread you quickly spouted off about those in your family who served and were killed or wounded back as far as WW1. IF that is true, then I honor your family's sacrifice. Your response was that you wouldn't honor anyones loss because it glorified war. And once again folks tried to point out that it is the attitude, that there are things we have in common. Your response..........vitriol. You desire the abuse so you can sit smug and tell everyone "There". Trouble is, you are the only one listening.

You are a fraud in my book, and I won't respond anymore.

Now............I want to hear more from Nicole and Doug.....says Mick, the old lefty, licking his chops. These are people I enjoy debating with...........LOL


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:36 AM

You're right, GUEST. I do like polite people. I like talking to people that can rationally disagree with me, because it means I have to improve my own arguments or, occassionally, they just might have a good point.

If you think being rude and confrontational wins anyone over to your point of view, you might ask yourself when the last time was you changed your mind just because someone waved their arms in your face and called you stupid.

Preach all you want -- but alienating people doesn't achieve anything except convince them left-wingers are crazy.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:21 AM

It ain't about me, Big Mick. Its about you. What you gonna do to stop this war from going one inch further?

You can try and reassure yourselves all you want that I want attention, or I am just a troll, or whatever you need to tell yourselves to keep the words I'm saying from sinking into your consciences. I'm here to trouble your waters, folks. I'm here to admonish you to wade in the water. You can keep trying to deny, deflect, denounce, and demonize me, but at some level, you all know what this thread is about. It is about the war hovering on the horizon.

Isn't a full scale US war on the Middle East worth discussing? Shouldn't such a subject generate some heated discussion, late into the night? Shouldn't that subject be worthy of generating threads of over a hundred posts?

Damn right I'm tirading. I fear we'll be sending Xmas packages to 250,000 military personnel in Iraq this year. If I can wake some people up who might do something about that, then I'm gonna do it, right here, right now. I'm going to proselytize, right here, right now.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:20 AM

Art,

Somehow I remember pratically every tidbit I read, but I can hardly remember where :) So I went internet searching. There's a lot of info about malnutrition in Iraq, but little recently about causes of death. It's hard to get updated statistics out of a country who's infrastructure is mostly destroyed.

The most recent and unbiased figures I could find were from the 1998 UNICEF report "Impact of the Sanctions on the People of Iraq." Page 42 notes that they feel the actual death rate is much higher than reported and "The increase in mortality reported in public hospitals for children under five years of age (an excess of some 40,000 deaths yearly compared with 1989) is mainly due to diarrhea, pneumonia and malnutrition. In those over five years of age, the increase (an excess of some 50,000 deaths yearly compared 1989) is associated with heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, cancer, liver or kidney diseases . . . With the substantial increase in mortality, under-registration of deaths is a growing problem." Elsewhere it notes that prior to the sanctions, 92% of the population had access to safe water.

Not the precise info I was looking for, however page 32 also notes that "Water treatment plants lack spare parts, equipment, treatment chemicals, proper maintenance and adequate qualified staff. ... Plants often act solely as pumping stations without any treatment... The distribution network, on which most of the population relies, has destroyed, blocked or leaky pipes."

An interesting article on post-sanction healthcare and death rates is here: http://www.iacenter.org/rc12600.htm It quotes many statistics, but does not specify sources.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:07 AM

Thanks, kat, you just beat me to the punch by about 5 minutes. GUEST.......you waste people's time here. We understand that you are desperate for attention. We shouldn't have given you all this attention now. You have no credibility and one needs only read this thread to see why. But we did fulfill at least one need of yours. We gave you attention. Now I am sure you will go home mumbling to yourself about how unjust it is and they just don't know how committed you are. After all .............."didn't I look up all the sites???????".

I really didn't want to be nasty, but you apparently seek that for validation.........so.........

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:06 AM

Yah sure kat--the subject matter of the thread is bloody inconsequential, isn't it? As usual, you'd rather believe it is all about my choice to be anonymous instead.

I'm not saying you have to take my word as gospel. I'm saying, if you are going to try and refute me, give me some comparable facts from legitimate sources. That is what open and honest debate is about. An clash of ideas, well thought out and presented. I just think too many people contributing to this thread are shooting from the hip about things they have no knowledge of, and saying so. If that disturbs people, and gets them to react and think about this stuff, then I've done my job. I don't expect anyone to like the way it makes them feel. I'm doing my damndest to make you feel uncomfortable. Because as long as you feel safe and warm and fuzzy and secure, you won't do anything.

But if you need a handle for my anonymity--hey, agitation is my middle name. :)


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:01 AM

What are you gonna do this weekend, GUEST, to make the planet more civil, more in tune with the Third World, a better place for you kids to live???????????????????//

Well, for you, my blowhard friend, I'm gonna drag my ass off to the Mountain Stage songwriter's competition and do a song (with sermon...) denouncing the death penalty in this country....

I'm gettin real bored with your tirades, GUEST. You're so tough. What the Hell are you doing for mankind this weekend?????

Activist????? Bull??????? You're nothin' more than a highway surfer....

Get off your high horse long enough to DO something that you can talk about other than throwing your bnowling ball thru the window of some gov't agency....

Hey, Doug makes more sense than you....

And he's willin to put a name with his ideas....

Which you're not...

Who's throwin' the crap, GUEST???????

Get real!!!!!

Quit lieing to yourself.....

Gettin' a little old here.....

And don't call me no liberal....

Peace thru intellegence and purserverance...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:45 PM

Change the names in the above post and GUEST is talking about herself. Amazing that she can come in and accuse but doesn't like it when others don't take her word for gospel. Trolling has garnered another thread of almost 100 posts...and still some of you answer in some vain hope of changing her mind/bullying tactics.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:39 PM

Dougie: I love you but you're nutty as a fruitcake. What the heck do I know about "liberals"? I ain't one. Those folks make me sick 'cause thay go and vote for Al Gore, rather than "mah main man". Heck, I'm jus funnin' with ya a tad here... But pleeeeze don't put that "liberal" label on me, though I'd take a liberal over someone in the other camp any day of the week... Not as much work.... But if I gotta disagree with someone on this thread, I'll take you over, ahhhhh, what's its name.... Yeah, what is its name?...?...?....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:34 PM

You are right Bobert. This thread, just like this fight to prevent a widening unilateral US war on the Middle East, isn't about anti-war folk vs. the military. It is about armchair liberals like you vs more radical activists like myself, right? You come in here claiming you know everything there is to know about passive *and* aggressive resistance to the war machine. You claim your way of resisting is not only morally superior to all others, but the one and only right way of preventing the war from widening. Nonviolent direct action to confront the war machine is what Bobert--aiding and abetting the enemy? I don't think so. And if you don't mind, I'll side with the ANC and the Sandinistas and the War Resisters' League and other radical pacifists of that ilk than somebody shooting off their mouth in an internet forum about folk music.

What you are doing Bobert, IMO, is claiming that you have some privleged, authoritative position regarding peace activism, when you don't. Your tactics of denoucing people who have a tremendous amount of legitimacy and respect within the peace movement, both here in the US as well as internationally, just shows who's side you are really on--the status quo's side. The safe, middle class way of not rocking your own boat, damn the consequences for the rest of the world.

If all we as Americans are about is polite conversation and hand wringing and "ain't it awful" posts in internet chat groups, why bother? Sure, I could be sweet as honey, but all that gets is agreement. Is that what we need here? More agreement? Nobody rocking our worlds? At least I shake people out of their complacency, which is a whole lot more than what the rest of you are doing here in the forum, shooting off your mouths as if you were advisors to Kofi Annan.

Civil discourse, in a country blessed by one hundred fifty years of peace, is something you all are taking much too much for granted. Would that people living in the war zones watching their children die of diseases that are wholly preventable and curable, or having their wedding bombed by "accident" had such a bloody luxury.

And I know why you prefer talking to Doug, Nicole. For the same reason why all of you would prefer to just chat among yourselves and cluck your tongues about how awful that bad man Bush is. Polite people make you feel safe, regardless of their values.

Sorry, but I don't play that game. Nor do I play the bullshit divide and conquer games that Bobert is engaging in. He is much more busy denouncing people busting Nordstrom's windows, than he is denouncing the violence our country is perpetrating on Afghanistan, Palestine, and Iraq. Why? Well, those people can't touch us. They can do us no harm. But the opinions of our peers here is comfy, cozy, safe America can cause us all kinds of dangers, can't they Bobert? Why, people lose their jobs, their homes, and their freedom for daring to speak out and resist the US war machine. I'm sure none of you here are willing to shake up your sacred status quo lives by actually getting out of your armchairs and getting to work on the anti-war campaign than you are willing to rock the Mudcat boat. You aren't willing to upset your fellow Americans--who might just turn you in to the Justice Department, after all. That would be much too dangerous. Just like I am.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:27 PM

Hey, NicoleCastle, right on! Bobert has learned that not all conservatives have horns and a long forked tail, and I must admit, although I don't agree with him, he is growing on me.

Liberals like Tro...er..sorry, GUEST isn't a true liberal. Liberals respect the views of others, right? They may not agree with them, but they respect them. Am I wrong here, Bobert?

Art: GUEST isn't a Troll! Dammit, he said he wasn't! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:41 PM

I'm not sure, Nicole. The most recent information on the WHO website is December 2000; it says, or implies strongly, that its either an infrastructure or government willingness issue. The part of Iraq in which a UN agency distributes food and other supplies to children was apparently doing well (defined as almost back up to pre-Gulf War levels) but malnutrition and other health issues had hardly improved at all in those rural areas where the Iraqi government had retained responsibility...there were no observed problems in major cities. Perhaps the basic problem is that there aren't enough trucks to get food and medicine where its needed. I've read, and I think it was at CNN.com but I wouldn't swear to it, that the Iraqi government has refused to request import permits as a matter of principal. Seems far fetched, but many things are possible.

I'd appreciate the opportunity to see the reference for the chlorine statistic.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:14 PM

Thanks, NicoleCastle. And just like 35 years ago this isn't about the anit-war folk against those under uniform. Hey, I lost 8 of my friends in Viet Nam and had two come home with badly wounded. My cousin lost his leg to a lnad mine. These folks were our brothers and sisters. They din't make the decsiions. They just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time. I remenber in '68 amd '69, we had organized a joint called the Center for the Perorming Arts and had rock groups playing every Friday and Saturday night and we'd get some uniformed brothers up from Ft. Lee. Well, we were a danged happy to have them as they were to be there.

Yeah, this thing ain't about our brothers and sisters in uniform who I consider to be part of "us". It's about the Masters of War, who collectively can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag yet go out pickin 'em...

Some things never change...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 09:20 PM

Harpgirl: I wish you much luck. It's a failing of the progressive movement that we can't shake the undeserved label of not caring about our servicemen and women. My own brother can't get his head around the idea that I might actually care about their lives and deaths. Work like yours, especially with your background, might help show there's a big difference between being upset at military action and caring about fellow citizens that are willing to serve their country in the military.

A former co-worker (who thought listening Rush Limbaugh was getting unbiased news) insisted loudly (and irrationally, IMHO) that the solution was to nuke the entire middle-east. When I pointed out that she would not longer have gas to drive either of her enormous 8 mpg SUVs if we destroyed that much oil, she declared that the US Army should invade and take over the whole region. Wouldn't we need a bigger army since lots of our current army would die, I asked? Well, she said, re-instate the draft. Isn't your son 17 years old and just about ready to sign up with Selective Service?

Oh, she said, I'd send MY son to Canada.

*sigh* And it's the conservatives that care about military personnel?

Art: The US government does not deny that the Iraq sanctions are responsible for massive civilian casualties. Nor can we blame this one on Bush; it sparked Albright's infamous quote about the staggering number of deaths of Iraqi children being "worth it." The #1 contender for the cause of deaths is that chlorine is on the no-no list as a potentially dangerous chemical, which means no water sanitation. Sadly, the sanctions haven't done a thing to hurt Saddam, and instead have fostered a huge swell of anti-western sentiment that plays right into Saddam's hands and created a whole new generation of angry young men.

Guest: I may disagree with Doug about 98%, but I'd rather talk politics with him than an arm-chair neo-liberal hippie, simply because he is civil.

Bobert: If I had known there were folks like you in Richmond, I may not have fled the place quite so quickly after high school :)


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 08:15 PM

I abase myself. I have once more fed a troll.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 08:06 PM

Thanks for the working link to War Times art, it was the one I was meaning to direct you to.

As to the crack about "4 year old information" art, I guess you don't know much about the difficulties of compiling statistics in war zones, and behind the curtains of sanctions, but I think you are being very arrogant about it. Want more sources? Try here:

http://www.salam.org/iraq/stats.html

Or here is a very long address to an article on sanctions at the International Red Cross website:

http://www.icrc.org/icrceng.nsf/5cacfdf48ca698b641256242003b3295/040171e49481b741412568a20030ca99?OpenDocument

BTW art, the page you linked to is simply a copy of the 2002 UN resolution on sanctions. It provides no information on the current health statistics information gathered by reputable sources like IRC, WHO, or the UN.

Here is a link to a CNN article from 1999 claiming "The United Nations estimates 1 million Iraqis, mostly children, have died under the sanctions.":

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9908/06/iraq.sanctions/#1

But have it your way artbrooks--you know the head in the sand "you can't scare me with the UN statistics, I'm sticking with my empire til the day I die" way.

Any way you look at, the UN sanctions against Iraq, enforced and kept in place by the US, are criminal. Criminal artbrooks. Criminal.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 07:59 PM

GUEST: You can post a thousand sites for us to read but it is apparent that you weren't there, my friend. I was. I was a reporter for the Richmond Chronicle, Richmond's underground newspaper and covered and participated in lots of anti-war demonstartions both in Richmond and D.C. Yeah, they were loud and we were in the street and we were confrontational and sometimes we had got hurt. That's okay.

The fringe anti-war folks did *nothing* but setback our efforts so when you say it was the anarchists and Yippies that brought an end to the war you are revising history. The Moritorium was the single biggest and most powerful day in the history of the Vietnam Anti-war movement and the reason for this is because it was inclusive and scared the Hell out of the Establishment. Yaeh, when they saw mother and fathers pushing strollers and old people they knew that our side had won. You weren't there or you would have known that, GUEST. Yeah, I spent a good part of the 60's talking with my parents about the war and both marched. And my dad was a Nixon Republican.

So, get real. You're beliefs are not founded on fact but more fixtion. Yeah, sure, you can continue to put up on site after another of folks who either weren't there or have for their own reasons unbeknownst to anyone, will jump up and down sayin' that the fringe radicals deserve the credit. That is pure bull.

So if you're and your cohorts are gonna plan on blemishin' a non-violent movement against the military industrial complex that involves creativity, confrontation and civil disobedience when required but does not give the other side a media victory for crushing the movement, then you'll have to live with yourself if you and your buddies become the puppets of Tom Rich and John Ashcroft.

Anarchy is not the answer, my friend.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 07:48 PM

Four-year-old information, as allegedly reported by a newspaper with a nonexistant website, is useful only from a historical perspective. The current UN position on sanctions, as supported by the US, is here. Or perhaps this is the place ANON.GUEST meant to send us?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:37 PM

The figure of 5,000 deaths per month is from the United Nations, so quibble with them artbrooks.

Here is the quote I lifted it from:

"In 1998 the UN reported that about 5,000 children under five were dying every month from the effects of sanctions-water-borne diseases, insufficient medicine, inadequate food."

My source for the information is "The War Times" newspaper. The front page of this new paper, now being carried nation-wide, carries the headline article titled "Bush Plots Military Strikes: 60 Countries Targeted" and an article below the fold titled "Apartheid in the Holy Land".

Their website, which is still under construction, is:

www.wartimes.org

Here is another nonviolent, direct action tactic being promoted in that paper: support for peace activists fined for sanctions violations. Activists have been running medicine to Iraq, defying government sanctions. Pledge funds here:

www.scn.org/ccpi/declaration2002.html

Or support the Iraq Peace Team, sponsored by Voices in the Wilderness. They have led 43 sanctions busting delegations to Iraq:

www.iraqpeaceteam.org


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:25 PM

Radical pacifism has a long, proud history folks, despite your protestations to the contrary. Here is the Columbia Encyclopedia's entry for two more famous American radical pacifists, the Berrigan brothers:

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. Berrigan brothers (br´gn) (KEY) , American Catholic priests, writers, and social activists. 1 Daniel Berrigan, 1921–, b. Syracuse, N.Y., was trained in the Society of Jesus and ordained in 1952. Travels in France exposed him to the worker-priest movement, and after teaching at secondary schools and at LeMoyne Coll., he devoted himself in the 1960s to civil rights and antipoverty work, eventually becoming a leading activist against U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. His poetry had meanwhile appeared in several volumes, including Time Without Number (1957). 2 Philip Francis Berrigan, 1923–, b. Two Harbors, Minn., served in Europe in World War II, grad. from Holy Cross Coll., and was ordained (1955). After holding pastoral and teaching positions, he turned in the 1960s to peace activism. In 1968 the Berrigans were arrested for destroying Selective Service files in Catonsville, Md. While in hiding, Daniel published a play, The Trial of the Catonsville 9 (1969). Both Berrigans served prison terms, and Philip secretly married Sister Elizabeth McAlister, a fellow activist. 3 After being paroled in 1972, both brothers continued their involvement in such actions as "Plowshares" protests at weapons plants. They have been repeatedly arrested and imprisoned, and have continued to write prolifically. 4 See Daniel Berrigan's autobiographical To Dwell in Peace (1987), Night Flight to Hanoi (1968), The Dark Night of Resistance (1971), and his prison memoir, Lights On in the House of the Dead (1974); Philip Berrigan's autobiographical Fighting the Lamb's War (1997), Prison Journals of a Revolutionary Priest (1970), and Widen the Prison Gates (1973). See also biog. of Daniel by R. Curtis (1974); S. Halpert and T. Murray, eds., Witness of the Berrigans (1972); M. Polner and J. O'Grady, Disarmed and Dangerous (1997). 5 The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright © 2001 Columbia University Press.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:10 PM

Yeah, Bobert, that is the difference between the folks that have their hands in the dirt, and the lace curtain liberal with lofty ideals and a University position. They have their role to play, but they rarely live with the consequence except to say later that they might have erred.

Rule no. 1 in all organizing, regardless of the type, is that it is always a fight for the middle.

Rule no. 2 is that reality is not defined by what is, but what is perceived.

Those of limited imagination and ability throw bowling balls through windows. These folks end up being perceived like they did at the Beer Hall Putsch.   Hearing this from our GUEST does not surprise me, it is the same way she approaches this place. And the result is the same in the minds of the only folks that can really change things in a democratic republic, that is the working folks raising families and voting. These tactics have some limited value for drawing attention, but there are better ways to do it. And have you ever noticed that the anarchistic activists never miss a chance to take over a city and raise hell, but when it comes to real evil, such as the Corporate thieves erasing the fruits of thousands of peoples entire working lives, these folks are sitting on their hands and talking about taking it to the streets. The creative and imaginative organizer will find ways to bring home the message in a better way.

I never thought we would live in a time of greater peril to our young and ourselves than The Cold War. Harpgirl, I apologize for what I am about to say, but you have reason to be fearful for you and your son. This man in the White House views foreign policy in the same way that he viewed running a company. That is as a bottom line entity. That is the philosophy that caused the current crisis in our stock market, and the attitude that anything is OK to reach the goal. There is a reason that laissez-faire capitalism is as much a failed system as pure communism. That is because men and women are not automatons and they make decisions and value judgements, ultimately, based on what is good for them. In the "purity of thought" worlds of the ultra right and far left, anything that helps them achieve their goals is rationalized. That is what this "Homeland Security" shit is about. That is why in 1980 the average CEO made about 47 times what the average employee made, and today it is in excess of 450 times (as of 1998), and probably over 500 times. But it is OK because they sold John Q. the line that anything good for business is good for everyone(trickle down economics.....what a crock!) and used it to put us where we are. And the whole line about how we need to take out Saddam is a feint. As I have said before, it is a red herring. Anytime someone is doing all they can to make me look one place, when other things are going on all around, I know something else is up. At first I thought there was hope because of Colin Powell and Condi Rice. Clearly they have been pushed to the rear. So be fearful, Mother. You have every right to be. And don't preach in church. That is easy. Take it to the streets? Sure, but do it in a way that you don't marginalize the message with the only folks that really have power in this country. Imagine two circles. One circle is your message. The other circle represents the people you need to reach. Now imagine the two circles pushed together until they overlap. The area they overlap is the only chance you have for communication and alliance. It is only when the experiences and concerns of the two overlap that real message can get through. A bowling ball aint it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 05:57 PM

5,000 dead children from US sanctions? Not likely! Perhaps you didn't notice that they are UN, not US, sanctions? Or do you think the US controls the UN? Not hardly. And perhaps you were unaware that Iraq has basically unlimited approval to import food and medicine but has chosen an "everything or nothing" approach to the sanctions? After all, 5,000 dead children sounds much more impressive to the uninformed than 5,000 tanks without spare parts.

Does Dubya plan to invade Iraq? Also not hardly. Generations of politicians all over the world have used the threat of war to distract attention from their failed (or nonexistant) domestic policies.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 05:42 PM

Bobert, as far as I know, bowling balls don't explode. Like it or not Bobert, the destruction of property as one tactic of many, did do a lot to keep the anti-war movement on the front pages, and the debate open and honest and inclusive. It IS what ended the war.

Here is the real problem though Bobert. You define throwing a bowling ball through a window of a closed office with no one in it, as an act of violence. I don't define that as violence, but as destruction of property. In my mind, and the minds of many, many other peace activists who use desrtruction of property as a non-violent, confrontational tactical tool, such destruction of property is a morally justifiable tool of civil disobedience. Better 1,000 bowling balls through the windows of military recruiters, than violence of the 1,000 dead children in Iraq this week alone, from sanctions. BTW, the current figures are 5,000 Iraqi children die PER MONTH as a result of US sanctions.

So, if you aren't willing to break a window to stop that level of violence Bobert, just what do you propse IS morally responsible?

BTW, I'm not advocating any tactic that many, many non-violent peace activists haven't used in the past in their confrontational campaigns, including the international anti-nuclear "Swords into Plowshares" activists who have targeted military installations and materials for destruction of property.

Highly principaled people have engaged in these protests Bobert, including politicians, religious leaders, artists, and many others. It is a tactic with a long, honorable tradition in the peace movement internationally. Here are some sites you can go to and read about the tradition:

http://www.plowshares.se/aktioner/metalgd.html

http://www.warresisters.org/nva996-3.htm

http://www.nonviolence.org/nukeresister/nr113/trident2000.html

You might be particularly interested to read the War Resisters' League's page on the debate re: pro-property destruction vs. con, especially in relation to the Seattle "Black Bloc" protestors:

http://www.warresisters.org/nva0901-2.htm

BTW Bobert, I know just how dangerous the right wing militarists in power in the US and around the world are. I also know that keeping the fragile hold we have on democracy here is going to require more than polite hand-wringing. It requires soldiers willing to fight the good fight with nonviolent, confrontational tactics. Those people who engage in such tactics are already serving prison sentences, as are the Arabs and Muslims who have already been interned without trial by the US government in the US in the name of national security.

Dangerous Bobert? Well hell, tell me something I didn't already know. It takes guts, courage, and fortitude to fight this fascist machine. Some of us never went home to a comfy, safe life in 1973, Bobert. Some of us kept fighting the good fight.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,The Banjoest
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 03:04 PM

No!


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:59 PM

Danged, GUEST, I thought we were doing well but I ain't into blowin' up nuthin' in the spirit of peace. I do not agree with you that destrution of property will do anything more than it did in the 60's. It just alienates lots of folks on both sides. The Seattle model is a dream come treue for the Ashcrofts and Rich's of the US. All it's gonna do is backfire. I'm beginning to think that we are not only on two different mindsets but two different generations. I don't think you learned the lessons of the 60's movement.

The thing that makes this different is the the right wing has so much control now that I am fearfull that your tactics just might bring about a situation that makes Kent State look like a Sunday picnic then the game is over and the right wing and military will just do what they have wanted to do for a long time, just pull the plug on this little experiement called democracy. Kepp in mind, that these folks are very, very dangeruos and you may be playing into their hands.

I believe that a coilition of young folks, boomers and in betweeners joined in a mass non-violent demonstration, will do more toward exposing the bad guys and winning over the fence sitters, than what you propose. Hey, I'm not shying away from civil disobedience, just not going to give the enemy any reason to kill folks, which they are hyped up to do. Yeah, something like the Moritorium. It was powerful and inclusive. How many middle aged and elderly folks you plan on coming to your bowling ball rumble, GUEST?

Yeah, you may get fooled again, but I won't.

Peace thru non-violent organizing and resistence!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:33 PM

The Internet is one of the most important tools being used by young anti-war activists, many of whom have been drawn to the anti-globalization movement post-Seattle.

In other words, they are tired of listening to boomers sitting on their ass, lecturing them about how they shouldn't use confrontational tactics to get their message heard.

Now then, if you saw that Fellowship of Reconciliation was full of wonderful, dedicated, well meaning people who march instead of demonstrate using confrontational tactics, but never get on the radar of the mainstream media (and therefore into the conscious awareness of the majority of the American people), what tactic would you use?

The answer is, this generation isn't following in the footsteps of the "march, but don't make waves" wing of the peace movement. This generation is set to follow the lead of the anti-globalization organizers, and use the tactics of confrontation used in Seattle. If they don't, they will, very simply, never be heard.

The thing to me which is important to keep in mind about the SDS of the Vietnam era and the anti-globalization organizers of this one, is that the SDS eventually began to spin off much more violent factions which targeted humans, instead of military property. Therein lies the difference, IMO. Throwing a bowling ball through a window of the draft office is the not morally equivalent to blowing up people. It it takes bowling balls through the windows of the draft recruiters to get media attention, then I say, lets start passing out the bowling balls.

Yeah--people are definitely going to have to go to jail to stop this war. No doubt about it. Marching to Washington and writing our congressional representatives is not going to stop this war train. Mayhem in the streets will have the effect of focusing on the issue, and making sure it stays on the front page until some voices of reason begin to prevail. Right now they are getting shouted down and drowned out by the Washington bully pulpits in the White House and in Congress.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:21 PM

Bobert, you asked what is it going to take to get people up outta their chairs and protesting. Historically, most action starts with young people, usually on college campuses, right? And, we see some evidence of that, but what I am wondering is if the Internet is a hindrance to others getting involved in a physical way. Do you suppose too many people, beyond college age, just go online, sign a petition, email their congressperson, and call it good? I am NOT saying I think this is necessarily true, just wondering out loud.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:19 PM

You forgot one thing Bobert--Dougie is a big fan of American military might. If his fearless leader #43 tells him via Fox News that that Sadam is one bad ass dude and we should get our military on over there and kick his ass for once and for all (and clear his daddy's name at the same time), by god then that is what Dougie boy is going to be proselytizing for here in the Cat. What Bushie sez is what Dougie do.

Fellas like Dougie don't think for themselves. Especially when it ain't them with their ole ass in the air on the front lines of Baghdad. He is one of them armchair gung-ho types. For his is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.

And amen to y'all too.

As to the SDS, they were never nearly as effective as the US government wanted us to believe. I attended exactly one of their meetings in 1969, and promptly walked out the door when I heard the subject of the meeting was whether or not women should be allowed to sit in the meetings without their shirts on when it was boiling hot (summer of 69), like the men were. Uh huh, I said to myself. Now here are some people who are seriously not interested in ending this war.

However, on the other end of the spectrum were many people like Dave Dellinger, or the Berrigans, or many others who were a bit more serious than Abbie Hoffman, shall we say? Ahem.

For a quick, interesting read about the history of the SDS involvement in the Vietnam era anti-war movement, try here:

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/antiwar.html


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:05 PM

Harpgirl: I had some problems with SDS myself at a meeting in Charlottesville, va in 1969. There were a few heavies there, including Jerry Rubin and Bill Kunstler, who were not in the particular meeting but the upshot was that the delegation I was part of from VCU in Richmond representing our independent organization, the Radical Student Union, went back to Richmond as independent. Too many egos and controlling folks. I did enjoy Bill Kunstsler but Jerry Rubin got on my nerves...

DougR: No! Jus funnin with ya'. I know you think I'm a cookie cutter leftest but you'd be surprised to see some of the stuff I'm workin' on now. Yep, holding hands with some real conservatives trying to block developers from raping Loudoun County, Va. Yeah, they know I'm a Greenie, but, hey, I always keep a smile on my face and ask about their families. Pick your battles. But on most issues, hey, I'll come down on the side of the working stiff and not blowing folks up.

GUEST: You're kinda growing on me but don't get too warm and fuzzy a feeling. You're just cranky. So what, right. I'd rather have you on the correct side than the other side. And don't get all blowhard if I pray for you. Hey, I pray for lots of folks. Yeah, my wife and I alternative morning prayers and so I threw you into the mix this morning. Well, the first thing after the Amen" out of her was. "Who's this GUEST person?" Hmmmmmmm? "Danged if I know, Honey..." Just funnin a little here....

Okay, folks what's a good next step in preventing the next stupid war? Dougie? You first...

Peace

Bobert


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