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Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!

harpgirl 03 Aug 02 - 12:20 AM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 01:09 AM
Troll 03 Aug 02 - 06:07 AM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 09:39 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 09:44 AM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 10:06 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 10:45 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM
Amos 03 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 11:37 AM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Friend of our Guest 03 Aug 02 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,truckerdave 03 Aug 02 - 11:56 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM
harpgirl 03 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM
DougR 03 Aug 02 - 11:59 AM
harpgirl 03 Aug 02 - 12:03 PM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 12:07 PM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 12:10 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 03 Aug 02 - 12:44 PM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 01:07 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 01:20 PM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 01:57 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 02:23 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 02:57 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 03:15 PM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM
kendall 03 Aug 02 - 05:07 PM
DougR 03 Aug 02 - 05:38 PM
DougR 03 Aug 02 - 05:40 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 04 Aug 02 - 01:32 AM
Troll 04 Aug 02 - 07:51 AM
GUEST 04 Aug 02 - 09:36 AM
harpgirl 04 Aug 02 - 10:40 AM
harpgirl 04 Aug 02 - 10:55 AM
van lingle 04 Aug 02 - 10:57 AM
GUEST 04 Aug 02 - 11:14 AM
Rick Fielding 04 Aug 02 - 11:16 AM
harpgirl 04 Aug 02 - 12:15 PM
harpgirl 04 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM
Bobert 04 Aug 02 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 04 Aug 02 - 10:26 PM
Big Mick 04 Aug 02 - 11:15 PM
harpgirl 05 Aug 02 - 12:04 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 05 Aug 02 - 01:05 AM
GUEST 05 Aug 02 - 09:14 AM
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Subject: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:20 AM

Here's where to start!

Protest The War!


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:09 AM

I was serious, too. Really glad you started this thread! Here's another org. which is gathering opinions and, I am sure, will move this up to current campaign status; it's a good org.: Moveon.org be sure to check their forums where you can post your own opinion and rate those of others.

We need some good slogans/bumper stickers, harpgirl...


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Troll
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 06:07 AM

Who is A.N.S.W.E.R? Who are the founders, financial backers, etc. Their articles seem a bitlong long on rhetoric. They mention "commissions" that I've never heard of as if they were some sort of official organization charged with the task of investigating specific " International Crimes".
The article speaks as though the guilt of the US were already a foregone conclusion and any "investigating" would simply be to drive the nails in the coffin. Plot your curve and then gather data to fit it, I guess.
Until I know a hell of a lot more about these groups and their total agenda, I'll pass.
The enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend.

troll


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 09:39 AM

troll, did you look around at the moveon dot org site? It is a grassroots org. of Americans from all sides of the spectrum who got together during the Clinton bs with congress and the cigar. Based on what each person registers as important to them, they spearhead email and letterwriting campaigns to champion the chosen causes. They are on the up and up...I've interviewed them and written articles on them.

I am a bit leary of the one harpgirl listed, too, except that it does seem to be college students, which may bode well.:-)

kat


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 09:44 AM

Hell, my Working Assets phone bill campaigns does better than this.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 10:06 AM

let your fingers do the walking and then disparage others...how predicatable and childish


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 10:45 AM

No it isn't. It is a realistic assessment of the website. I saw no evidence of serious involvement in the anti-war movement on the web site linked to, and I did further follow-up by doing a web search on the organization collecting funds, the People's Rights Funds, Inc. whose website (which doesn't tell you much of anything about who these people are) found here:

http://www.peoplesrightsfund.org/

So I went to Guidestar, the national database for information on nonprofits (a standard tool used by activists to find financial information on legitimate 501(C)3 nonprofits, and it has no listing there. Guidestar's website is here:

http://www.guidestar.org/index.jsp

This organization isn't in any of the databases those of us working in the social justice movement use to check on an outfit claiming to be a nonprofit. It wasn't listed at the About.com Nonprofit Charitable Orgs:

http://nonprofit.about.com/index.htm

or at the Foundation Center's website list of online nonprofits, found here:

http://fdncenter.net/funders/grantmaker/gws_pubch/publist.html

The fact of the matter is kat, you are the one being childish and naive, not to mention patronizing. I've been around Mudcat long enough enough to know that you love to spout lovely rhetoric, but rarely know shit about the subjects you claim to be so supportive of. Like this for instance. Rather than playing along with the internet chat group activists -) here at Mudcat, I'd rather just be honest, and call a spade a spade. If that offends you, so be it. This website looks suspicious to me.

I also posted to the Orwellian thread, telling harpgirl that if she wanted help finding a way to get connected into the anti-war movement, to post her city of residence, and I would post contacts for her in the thread.

Everyone else, I suggest you put on your caveat emptor glasses when viewing this website.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM

Also, I would like to point out that this "international march" isn't on the radar at Protest.net:

http://www.protest.net/

Or at Peace.Protest.net:

http://pax.protest.net/

The latter page is where the anti-war actions get posted. Indymedia's Peace page links to Peace.Protest.net, for instance. The Indymedia website is the most linked site for social justice activism in the world, and this organization isn't on their radar either.

Here is AFSC's (American Friends Service Committee) Campaign of Conscience website on Iraq:

http://www.afsc.org/conscience/Default.shtm

The Campaign of Conscience is one of the main peace movement coordinated campaigns, and includes others like Fellowship of Reconciliation, and other organizations who have been in the anti-war movement trenches on Iraq since the Gulf War. People's Rights Fund, Inc. isn't on their radar either.

Nor is there a link to the organization at the Iraq Action Coalition's website here:

http://iraqaction.org/

And finally, the National Network to End the War (one of the biggest coalitions working to end sanctions, etc) doesn't have this group on their list either. Here is their website, which has a member list by state, and this organization (ie both International A.N.S.W.E.R. and People's Rights Fund Inc.) isn't on it. Here is their website:

http://www.endthewar.org/default-new.htm

Any one of these websites I've listed have ways for people to get plugged in to the anti-war effort in their local areas. Rather than reinvent the wheel, it usually makes more sense to join the movement already adept at doing this sort of work.

And I'm currently checking out this organization through movement contacts to see if they are legit. There is the possibility that this is an Internet scam (since all they seem to be about is collecting money). Forewarned is forearmed, as they say.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM

Chill, GUEST, while your information is appreciated your delivery leaves room for improvement. Attacking folks ain't the way to demonstrate peace, but quite the opposite. There's a big difference between referring to one's behavior as "childish" and " but rarely know sh*t about the subjects you claim to be so supportive of". I'm not condoning Kat's remarks, just pointing out how quickly you were willing to escalate the conflict. This is how wars get started.

Peace is more than words, marching, writing letters. It's about how we react to others and situations. Its about win-win. It's about forgiving without being asked to forgive. It's a state of mind where you want comfort for others. Where you respect others.

Sure, you can go ahead and give me the blast here because I am not the hall monitor of the internet and you have the right to say what you want. I'm not trying to put you down, Guest, put pull you up onto the peace wagon. My motives a peaceful, not adversarial.

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM

Links to anti-war groups in Japan, England, Minnesota, and Ireland can be found on this page.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:37 AM

Bobert, I ain't no pacifist, so hows about you chill? Anti-war does not = peace, and the activist ain't interchangeable.

Don't like my gruff presentation? Look to kat's post chastising me in a really patronizing way, eh? She fired the first shot, not me. Just because she didn't like my opinion or the way I expressed it, doesn't mean she was right to say disparagingly:

"how predicatable and childish"

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, it's a two way street, etc etc


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:47 AM

You're absolutely right, GUEST, anit-war does not + peace, but it's the first step and if that's all you are ready for, then, hey, I'm real happy to have you part of the way there. But I'm real sorry that peace ain't your cup of tea because if it were, I think you'd be enjoying life's journey a tad more. And this isn't directed at personally but just sound advice for all of us.

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,Friend of our Guest
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:52 AM

I agree with our guest, Kat's beligerence led to his reply. It is the same reason war with Iran is justified.

The responsibility for all deaths in war lies with the aggressor who initiates force, not with those who defend themselves.

War is terrible but sometimes necessary. To win this current war, we must not let an immoral concern with "innocents" weaken our resolve. We have the right to destroy those who initiate force to deprive us of our rights and lives. With full moral certainty we must urge our government to defend our lives, even if that requires nuclear weapons and hundreds of thousands of deaths in terrorist countries such as Iran.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:56 AM

What a laugh. US backed Israeli war crimes!!!!!????????


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM

Bobert, methinks you are trying to either cover your ass here, or make yourself look good in the eyes of your Mudcat cronies.

In response to my post, you try to make it appear as thought pacifists and peace activists are somehow morally superior to non-pacifists and anti-war activists. Where I come from, we call that little game "divide and conquer". Seems to me you ain't much of a peacenik at all if that is what you are about here.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM

...thank you for the feedback, troll. I just began my internet research last night and I haven't gone too far into that particular website. I do see great value in starting research on legitimate anti-war movements with regard to the Iraq/American war which is being telegraphed to US citizenry by the current administration. And I am glad to see the other links being posted. I suspect our politics diverge on this issue but so be it.

I guess you sang "A drop of Saddam's blood wouldn't do us any harm..." while you were in Japan, then, eh??????

As for Guest, I appreciate your research and information. As for "playing along with the internet chat group activists"; I'm sure that bringing this up will get many people thinking and some more to act. hg hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:59 AM

The sky is falling!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:03 PM

...geez kat, I'm sorry I started something that has led to this aggressive attack on your remarks. I sinceerely, think that some of us mudcatters might be interested in investigating and acting against an Iraq/American war. So perhaps you folks should have a few shots at me, as well???


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:07 PM

FIRST GUEST said, Hell, my Working Assets phone bill campaigns does better than this. That's it, that's all....leading one to believe IT meant harpgirl's efforts and those of others on this website were worthless. There was nothing saying otherwise, which led me to make an observation.

Quite a psychological phenomenon you've got there...taking the high road through anonymity...sure can't prove anything about yourself that way, though, can you? What protest march were you last in? Oh, you were the one with a bag over your head? WOuldn't want the neighbours to know it was you, eh?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:10 PM

I'm sorry, too, harpgirl, just didn't feel like letting it slide this time. I agree with your reasons for starting this thread and will read it with interest. Thanks...


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:26 PM

Assailing my anonymity won't change the fact that I provided everyone here with valuable information, and did so without kowtowing to your overly sensitive hissy fit, kat.

You read WAY too much into my original post, which was not a comment on you or harpgirl, but the organization to which the link was provided. Maybe if you could get beyond the fact that just because someone chooses to remain anonymous, doesn't automatically mean they are here solely to attack members. That is your paranoia, and your chosen reality, not mine.

If you were serious and genuine about the anti-war effort, you could actually apologize for getting all snooty to begin with kat. Or is that not something the too-proud members can do in the name of peace here?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:44 PM

Even the doves are turning hawkish

Clinton says he would die to defend Israel

Associated Press - New York - Friday, June 02, 2002

Former President Clinton, who avoided the Vietnam War, told Jewish supporters in Toronto that he would fight and die to protect Israel if Iraq or Iran ever invaded.

"The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die."

Clinton was accused of ducking the draft during the Vietnam era. He received and induction notice but got a deferment when he promised to participate in an ROTC program. He never jhoined the program. He later withdrew his deferment but drew a lottery number too high to be drafted.

The times they are a changing!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:07 PM

If you were serious and genuine about the anti-war effort, you'd give it a rest, chalk it up to not posting as clearly as possible, and quit trying to start a war here on the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:20 PM

I'm doing no such thing kat. And your ignorance about what the true spirit of peace and justice work is all about is showing again.

So-called "wars" in your little world of internet music chat sites bear no resemblance to war in the real world, and to suggest that they are somehow comparable is vicious and irresponsible.

Maybe you need to spend a lot less time in internet chat forums, and more time serving your fellow human citizens.

Try chastising others for giving information about social justice activism here AFTER you get serious about social justice work, kat. Your words ring pretty hollow to me.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:57 PM

GUEST:

I don't have to cover my boney Wes Ginny butt here because I have consistently preached the same message here in Catsburg since tunneling my way in. The first thread I started was "Department of Peace", which, sure, I'd be willing to compromise here with you and rename it the Department of Anti-War. Okay?

Others:

Though I have not conducted an investigation of moveon.org nor will I, I think there is some valuable information at this site. I would also urge you all to keep the letters and emails headed toward your representatives and senators in Washington, D.C. so they will know there are a lot of folks who don't agree with the Bush administration's foriegn policy. (And for those who feel compelled to defend Bush by bashing Clinton, forget it. That dog don't hunt no more. Nothing happens in the past and the US is now trying to figure out it's role as super power and not doing too good a job of it, at present...)

Peace (Anti-War, for others...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:23 PM

Odd that a "peacenik" such as yourself Bobert, has nothing to say about the organizations I've posted links to--an oversight in your recommendations, perhaps? Or are you, like kat, just to petty to admit when you are wrong, and defer to people who clearly know what they are talking about, despite their choice to remain anonymous?

Nah, it was no oversight. You are just pissed off because I won't play along with your "Mudcat nice" game. It is perfectly clear that in the Mudcat, people much prefer talking the talk about peace, to walking the walk.

Pretenders, poseurs, and posturers play those games. Not real life activists.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM

Let me just say that I am every bit as serious about grabbing a rifle and getting in a ditch to defend Israel as Bill Clinton is. I also never inhaled.

The site listed by Harpgirl looks awfully pro-Palestinian to me. While I agree the US has been too pro-Israel in past, I'm suspicious.

Personally, I hope Saddam agrees to abide by rules mandating international inspection of his facilities, and averts any hostility. He has done so before, and then booted the inspectors out enough times that his good intentions have lost all credibility. Apparently he wants to talk again in the face of impending hostilities. I don't think any conversation should take place without firm consequences of repetition of his previous behavior.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:57 PM

GUEST:

Hope this doesn't ruin your day, but I'm not at "pissed off" here. Even during some of my more memorable rants here in the Catbox, I have confined whatever "pissed-offedness" to policies and policy makers who I feel are not moving the country and planet toward a saner level of coexistence.

My friend, DougR, who is at the opposite end of the politiacl spectrum, would probably attest to the fact that personal attacks are not my style. Yeah, we've been known around the Catbox to disagree but we don't go calling each other names nor do we pass judgement on each other as people. But, yep, we do disagree as most folks around here know.

Now, GUEST, as for the links you have been kind enough to share with us, I am planning on spending time tonight at home delving into them. I am at work and am not able to do much more than throw in a few thoughts here and there between my customers. I usually save my serios reading for home where there are no interuptions. So as to not tie up this thread, if you'd like you can send me a PM with your email adress and I'll give you my impressions of those links directly.

Lastly, I think you have me confused with Phil Oaks (or whoever it was) "Liberal", GUEST. Ain't me. Liberals drive Volvos with Gore/Lieberman bumperstckers. I drive a beat to crap Toyota or my 63 Volkswagen with "Developers Don't Go To Hell, They Build it Here" and Green Praty bumper stcikers.

And lastly, Part 2, Guest. At least on this thread, I'm going to give the rest of the Catfolk a break and not continue responding specificlly to your posts. And this isn't about being "pissed off" like you think I ma though I am not. It's just out of respect for the importance of this thread. Like I said, PM me if you like and I'll get back with you off to the side, one on one...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 03:15 PM

Bobert, I've been doing peace and justice work since 1970. Let me just say that if you are, as you claim to be here in Mudcat, a peace activist, I find it pretty shocking that you would have to "investigate and read about" the major social justice organizations of the Catholic, Quaker, Jewish, and Protestant denominations. But hey--what do I know? I'm just anonymous, so nothing I say can be legitimate to paranoid Mudcat members.

And as to MoveOn:

MoveOn claims to be a nonprofit, and says it uses the The San Francisco Foundation Community Initiative Fund as it's sponsor.

The San Francisco Foundation website can be found here:

http://www.sff.org/

It has never granted monies to an organization called MoveOn, but it doesn't have to if all they are doing is acting as fiscal sponsor. However, there is no list of organizations it provides fiscal sponsorship for. It appears this group has raised some serious bucks, though, so I doubt they need to apply for grants to stay in business. The founders are software developers from Silicon Valley, and seem to be working for/with the Democratic Party in the San Francisco Bay area.

The organization doesn't show up at Guidestar, which means it doesn't file IRS Form 990 or 990EZ (the tax return forms for nonprofits). However, it is possible that the SFF files taxes on it's behalf as it's fiscal sponsor.

The reason why I mention all this, is that what often happens with organizations like this (it was founded as a de facto Democratic Party "response" to the Clinton/Lewinsky affair) which begin life as single issue organizations, is that they can lose effectiveness over time.

Also, some of you might want to know that this organization had some clout with the California Dems, and undertook a pretty considerable anti-Green Party and pro-Gore/anti-Nader campaign in the last election. The only activity of this organization I found any evidence of after their initial petition campaign online was emails/messages from the founder, Wes Boyd (as recently as June 2002). But beyond that, they seem to have dropped off the activist radar as an organization. Looks to me like the org founders are still active in Dem Party interests in that way, but not much beyond that. They have a PAC contribution site, which funnels money to endangered Dem Party candidates.

It seems they still collect money to donate to Democratic Party candidates of their choice, and perhaps may still be gathering on-line petitions and email campaigns, but they aren't doing anything I, as an activist, would consider to be beyond pure partisan party politics.

Of course, if Dem Party politics is what you are all about, hey--crack open the checkbook, sign their petitions to be sent to (and ignored by Congress), and continue spouting off on in internet forums, just like the MoveOn folks do!

I guess that IS Dem Party loyals idea of grassroots activism, even if some of us who do non-partisan activist work see it as protecting your own self-interests by supporting your personal status quo (ie the Democratic Party).

And just for DougR, here is some balance, the Daily Pundit website:

http://www.dailypundit.com/archives/002812.php

So, before anyone rushes off to the secure donations website for MoveOn, I suggest doing a bit more homework, to see how active this organization truly is. I could find no other information on the organization after 1999 in my Internet searches. And I welcome being proved wrong, BTW. Accurate information is always better than proving one's self right (or just being self-righteous as the case may be).


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM

Ain't really into testimonials, GUEST, but when you came into activism, I had been on the front lines for 5 years. And I confess to not even looked at yopur links because there were so many of them, I just skimmed your post with intentions of reading them later tonight, which I will.

Gotta go cut the grass.

Later

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:07 PM

Gargoyl, just to get some balance here, that beady eyed phoney also avoided the draft by joining the Texas National guard; then not showing up for training, and now, he has the balls to wear that flight jacket. Bush needs enemies to stay in office, but, when the body bags start coming home, I'm going to worry about my granson who is 18 on the 7th. Remember, we will be in this one alone.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:38 PM

Yep, Bobert, I agree with you statement. You never have attacked anyone on a personal basis that I know of. If you were going to, it certainly would have been me, I would think, and you haven't.

I'll skip on out of this thread now so that you anti-whatevers can go on about your business. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:40 PM

Before I go, though, LEJ, do you suppose he would know which end of the rifle goes against his shoulder?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:43 PM

Really, Bobert? You were a peace activist in 1965? Which "front line" were you working on? I'm genuinely curious, because I don't know of a single Mudcatter who has roots that deep or old in the peace movement. As I said, accurate information is much more important than being right.

I'm still sceptical about your claims, mind you. Anyone with roots that deep in the peace movement would immediately recognize the names of the organizations I've cited for harpgirl, allowing as they all go back even further than you do in the movement. Nonetheless, I'd love to hear what your life as an activist has been about.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 01:32 AM

GUEST - lighten up .... I've been hangin round here for a while...and most of these FOLK are posers...not all of them...but many of them...particularly the ones you are currently doing battle with........you have called their bluff...........save your energy....

If they were legit in the areas of folk AND peace...they would acknowledge...Let there be peace on earth....and let it begin with me.

I on the other hand am a capitalist with heavily vested interests in the war-industry...but won't touch tobacco or liquor for ethical reasons.

Carry on...its good to have you around.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Troll
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 07:51 AM

Harpgirl, I am still in Japan and will be here until at least Nov.,27, 2002 unless my contract gets extended.
When I sing "Roll the Old Chariots", I sing "A drop of Nelsons blood..." This is not a gig in which I feel that I should express any political sentiment of any stripe. For one thing, most of my listeners wouldn't understand me and those did understand would be offended. I am employed to provide atmosphere and entertainment, not political commentary.
If this menas that I'm no longer entitled to call myself a folksinger, so be it. I've been singing all my life and I don't need a label to continue doing that.
I realize that your post was probably just a bit of humor but it struck me in a funny way.
Gargoyle, good comments.

troll


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 09:36 AM

A little deeper digging, and I find out that International ANSWER Coalition is in fact, Ramsey Clark's(former AG)post-9/11 organization. He is founder of the International Action Center, website found here:

http://www.iacenter.org/

The reason why International ANSWER wasn't showing up on many of the highly visible peace organizations' websites is due to a bit of political in-fighting. It looks to me as if there was a bit of a split over the April 20th Coalition's decision to hold their main march on Washington the same day as ANSWER had planned theirs. It got sorted out, as these things usually do, by everyone coming together and deciding to hold their marches together.

So, I don't know how the information that the website provided by harpgirl is run by Ramsey Clark will influence people's opinions of the organization one way or the other. He is a very strong supporter of the Palestinian cause (A Good Thing, IMO), but he has made some very controversial choices about the people he has chosen to defend over the years, but that is par for the course for famous lawyers.

So harpgirl--you did good finding this website, it is perfectly legitimate. I apologize for causing you consternation, and I hope my leaping in with information casting doubt on your choice of organizations hasn't resulted in you second guessing your own judgment. You did very well holding your own with me (not an easy thing to do, I might add). If you are going to become involved in activist work, you will need that skill.

Again, best of luck finding your way.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:40 AM

I am truly sorry if I caused you discomfort, Jon. I only meant to be cynical, a part of my real self and one of the ways I view the world.

BTW, we missed you at the FFF and I gave Lisa a picture of you, Joe Offer, Gail K., and Uncle Ray that I took in 99' when we were jamming. I hope you get to see it. Please accept my apologies, I didn't meant to disparage your work at Disney in Japan in any way. I am quite envious of such a fun opportunity, troll...peace...hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:55 AM

...oh and GUEST, I am not inclined to feel humiliation when I don't know something; which happens quite often, I might add, both in terms of music and with regard to politics and a host of other topics. I value to breadth and depth of knowledge available to me in this "chat room" on all the subjects we cover in the course of our conversations. I'm only upset when I've inadvertantly offended folks I care about and I see that I have caused them distress, even when they deny it. (But it's harder to respond sincerely when that happens, I find.)

As for activism, my thirty years of social work activity only qualify me as an expert in one small place in the universe, in the piney woods of north florida....but Ann Arbor in the sixties has shaped my life irrevocably...peace...hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: van lingle
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:57 AM

Key to preventing this Iraqi war that Bush Jr. has been lobbying for for some time now is to provide him with a new congress at the mid-terms that won't put up with this nonsense. vl


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:14 AM

It can be very difficult to do anti-war/peace organizing when your livelihood depends upon serving communities with a strong military presence. I don't know how much of that is the case for you in Tallahassee. You have said elsewhere that you work with military families in your social work, so I'm assuming you have a client base rooted in the military communities (active and retired I'd guess) of northern Fla.

In my mind, social work is activism of one sort. And there are many. But I understand that "coming out" as a peace activist could work against your professional standing, because peace activists are almost always viewed as the enemy by military people and their families. Of course, that doesn't mean that peace activism is non-existent in communities where military bases are located. That was my first apprenticeship as a full time peace and justice activist, in fact. There was a tremendous amount of misinformation, urban myth and fear about us in the military community. It was so bad where I was living, that military folk had a very difficult time reconciling me as a peace activist. Military folk who worked with me and knew me socially found it almost impossible to believe I was one of "those people." It was quite difficult for them to reconcile themselves to the fact that they were in the presence of a social justice activist opposed to their military mission, who they found to be quite a normal, likeable human being. They really thought I should be foaming at the mouth, and committing dastardly secret deeds that would destroy the US. :)


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:16 AM

"Really, Bobert? You were a peace activist in 1965? Which "front line" were you working on? I'm genuinely curious, because I don't know of a single Mudcatter who has roots that deep or old in the peace movement."

Hi GUEST. Yes you do.

I was pretty young and the names Tommy Douglas, Therese Casgrain, and the CCF, may not much to you if you're not Canadian....but thanks to my parents who encouraged me to look listen and read, and NEVER swallow ANY information without investigating it to the best of my ability, my involvement started early. Hypocracy among certain leaders has occasionally caused me to waver though.

Interesting thread.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 12:15 PM

Interesting point, GUEST. I don't depend primarily for my livelihood upon my contractual agreement with Champus/Tricare, however. It's only one of many contractual agreements I maintain. I hadn't thought about what impact high visibility peace activism might have on the rest of my work activities. Knowing myself, if I ever do become more visible in peace activism, I won't give a flip about how it will affect my contractual work....

BTW troll, I think sharing your vast storehouse of musical/cultural knowledge with folks on the other side of the world is very important. The more we try to understand one another's culture, the better we might be able to get along.

If you're lonely over there, find masato sakurai. He has certainly contributed to international understanding with his knowledge of american folk music and culture! Or maybe you have met one another already! peace, hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM

one more thing and then I'll shut up. As for our mudcatters being posers, Gargoyle...you were a boyscout for cripe's sake, so being a gargoyle in mudcat is your pose! You of all people should be aware that many of our hawkish and dovish folkies and artistic types are disabled and are not likely to venture far from their homes to make their true beliefs known. This forum provides an outlet for their views!

Oh, and you mean you didn't drink beer at the hashes when you were the Songmeister? What about all those marches with the Philmont Rangers? You must have given up beer lately...love and peace hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 04:05 PM

GUEST: Not that getting into a resume swapping contest with you, which is counter productive, but in the fall of 1965, I co-founded the first leftest student group at what was Richmond Professional Institute (RPI0 which is now Virgibia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Va. The name of the organization was Students for Individyal Rights (SIR) and in the spring of 1966, long before it bacame fashionable to speak out against the Viet Nam war we organized the first anit-wae demonstration ever held in the city called the "Puppy Burn". Yep we ran off poster on a hand crank printer and had had over a 1000 folks show up incensed that we were going to burn a puppy. You guessed it. No puppy. But we were there with thousands of leaflets, and speakers and a couple of right thinking (not right wing) clergy folk to add creditbility.

Well, that was Chapter 1 and the beat goes on. I'm not going to bore you with SDS, SOC, M-LAP, R-CAP, SCLC, et al but to round out my activism you may research a memorial service that I organized from scratch less than 2 years ago for black laborers who were buried in the Churchill Tunnel collapse of 1925, after the white engineers bofy was recovered. Yes, 75 years later the racist government of the City of Richmond has never made any attempt to honor those men of color. If you have any interest in that story you'll find it if you find the Richmond Times Dispatch. It was covered by Mark Holmhberg.

With these things stated, GUEST, I'm going back to posting to the spirit of the thread. Again, if you have additional interests in the many chapters between 1965 and the civil rights memorial or what I am currnetly involved with then you'll have to PM me with an email address...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:26 PM

HARPIE!... Genuinely, sorry about the disabilities and desire a speedy removal from your pain.

Read your posting thru several times....you've tagged the wrong gargoyle's tail...I don't understand the ramble.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:15 PM

Well done, Bobert! The self righteous poster who uses many names has an arrogance that is almost palpable. I thought she was particularly patronizing when Harpgirl was informed what a good scout she was to be able to hold her own with her, even ending it with "not an easy thing to do, I might add". A giant in her own mind. Must be she swims in shallow water. Harpgirl has shown many times, that she is capable of holding her own and besting those that are unprepared. At any rate, GUEST's sites check out and many are very good. Too bad that this person of many personna's can't settle on one and just weigh in.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 12:04 AM

...okay garg, whatever....my disabilities aren't immediately visible though , and they mostly cause other people pain....hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 01:05 AM

PAX

Excerpt ( concluding paragraph )

DISLIKES

By Oliver Wendel Holmes

Library Edition – The Wit and Humor of America – vol III – Funk and Wagnell's Company 1907

Holmes is reflecting upon people he dislikes and concludes:

There is one blameless person whom I can not love and have no excuse for hating. It is the innocent fellow-creature, otherwise inoffensive to me, whom I find I have involuntarily joined on turning a corner. I suppose the Mississippi, which was flowing quietly along, minding its own business, hates the Missouri for coming into it all at once with its muddy stream. I suppose the Missouri in like manner hates the Mississippi for diluting with its limpid, but insipid current the rich reminiscences of the varied soils through which its own stream has wandered. I will not compare myself to the clear of the turbid current. But I will own that my heart sinks when I find all of a sudden I am in for corner confluence, and I cease loving my neighbor as myself until I can get away from him.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 09:14 AM

I'm sure Fellowship of Reconciliation supporters will sleep better at night, knowing that the Mudcat members (many of whom claim to be dedicated to "peace") think they are "legit". Even though not one of the aforementioned, self-proclaimed "peace activists" had ever heard of them.

For those of you who can't be bothered with actually going to the websites of the main organizations active in the national peace movement, let me just say that the majority of them have a history of activism that dates back to World War I.

As usual here in Mudcat, none of this information will change minds though, will it? Because this non-argument had nothing to do with actual facts surrounding peace activism. It was all about Mudcat guard dogs coming to the rescue of a member they (wrongly) felt was being attacked by an anonymous poster. Any lively and informative discussions here where criticism of a member's position by (usually) an anon guest, sets off all the alarm bells, and the guard dogs attack.

Too bad people are really that petty, because it sure as hell gets in the way of many an otherwise good discussion in the forum. But what the hell--c'est la guerre.


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