mudcat.org: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs

Related threads:
How old is Brit trad of music in pubs? (88)
PEL: Mummers stopped Cerne Abbas (101)
PEL: demo - pictures (14)
BS: Is Kim Howells an arsehole? (65)
Licensing Bill - How will it work ? (331)
Weymouth Folk Festival (UK) (120)
A little more news on Licensing (158)
Killed by the PEL system Part 2 (93)
The New Star Session R.I.P. PELs (55)
PEL Problems in Hull (39)
PELs: Are we over-reacting? (74)
Circus PELs - I told you so! (16)
PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again (24)
PEL stops session in Cheshire (78)
Lyr Add: PEL Song: A PEL Protest (Julie Berrill) (27)
PELs - Letters to important folk. (50)
Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs (506) (closed)
PEL: Architect)?) Andrew Cunningam (11)
Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE (286) (closed)
UK Government to license Morris Dancing (68) (closed)
EFDSS on the Licensing Bill - PELs. (38)
PEL: Doc Roew gets through to Minister !!! (11)
PELs Dr Howells on Mike Harding Show. (106)
From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs (36)
Common's Early Day Motion 331 (new)(PEL) (69)
DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs (16)
PEL threads. links to all of them. (50)
BS: Village Greens and licences (3) (closed)
PEL's: News Blackout! (53)
PEL: Billy Bragg BBC1 Monday nite (17)
PELs: Exemptions? (107)
Petition Clarification (PELs) (9)
PEL debate on BBC TV Now. (6)
further 'dangers' with the PEL (24)
Stupid Music Law. (8)
Howells (now) asks for help PELs (68)
PEL : MPs' replies to your e-mails (40)
PEL: Where does Charles Kennedy stand? (10)
PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar (18)
PEL: Howells on BBCR1 TONIGHT! (45)
PEL : Hardcopy Petition (44)
PELs Government v MU & lawyers (48)
PEL Pages (5)
Human Rights Committee AGREES! PELs (20)
Churches now exempt from PELs (55)
Lyr Add: PEL 'Freedom to sing' song (12)
Lyr Add: PEL Protest song (14)
Can YOU help The Blue Bell session? (9)
PEL: Urgent soundbites - CBC interview (25)
BS: Kim Howells, but NOT PELS for a change (8) (closed)
PEL: Billy Bragg on Question Time 6th Feb (15)
Kim Howells (PEL) (85)
PEL - A Reply From An MP. (22)
BS: What is PEL? (3) (closed)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 30th Jan 2003 (25)
PEL – Robb Johnson on R3, 1215h, 26/1. (8)
New PEL. An alternative argument. (31)
PEL: DEMO 27 JANUARY 2003 (95)
PEL: VERY URGENT - CONTACT yr MP TODAY (46)
Poet against PEL - welcome Simon (10)
PEL: First Lord's defeat of the bill (10)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 23rd Jan (5)
kim howells does it again (PEL) (69)
PEL UK - Unemployed Artist Dancer - look (22)
PEL hit squads! (16)
PELs for beginners (26)
PEL: Latest rumour/lie? It's gone away? (3)
PEL: but not music (9)
Folking Lawyers (PEL) (26)
MU campaign - Freedom of Expression (36)
PEL- Enforcement: How? (8)
PEL: Inner working of Minister's minds? (9)
PROTEST DEMO WITH GAG (PEL) (10)
PEL: What activities to be criminalised? (29)
A Criminal Conviction for Christmas? (PEL) (45)
PEL - Idea (34)
Glastonbury Festival Refused PEL (5)
MSG: x Pete Mclelland Hobgoblin Music (23)
Sessions under threat in UK? (101)
PELs of the past (13)
BS: PELs and roller skates. (1) (closed)
PELs UK Music needs your HELP (64)
Fighting the PEL (43)
URGENT MESSAGE FOR THE SHAMBLES (22)
Lyr Add: The Folk Musician's Lament (a PEL protest (2)
BS: Queen's speech, and licensing reforms (32) (closed)
PELs UK BBC Breakfast TV Monday (1)
PEL: Licensing Reform? (46)
BS: PELs in Scotland (12) (closed)
BS: The Cannon Newport Pagnell UK - no PEL! (18) (closed)
Action For Music. PELs (28)
Killed by the PEL system (66)
TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP (6)
PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus (14)
EFDSS letter to UK Government HELP! (2)
Help: PELs & The Folk Image (12)
Official 'No tradition' 2 (PELs) (55)
Is this man killing folk music? (19)
We have PEL - Rose & Crown Ashwell, 23/6 (2)
BS: Vaults Bar, Bull ,Stony Stratford - PEL (4) (closed)
What is folk ? - OFFICIAL (26)
Official: No tradition of music in pubs (92)
UK catters be useful TODAY (70)
Help Change Music In My Country (102)
PEL-More questions (7)
NEWS for visitors wanting to play in UK (56)
Nominate for a Two in a Bar Award -UK (11)
USA- HELP Where is Dr Howells? (13)
BS: URGENT UK contact your MP TONITE (18) (closed)
ATTENTION ALL UK FOLKIES URGENT HELP? (97)
Write an Email for Shambles? Part 2 (75)
UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles (24)
All UK folkies take note - the law!!! (68)
BS: Tenterden weekend (and PELs) (11) (closed)
PEL (UK) (25)
Will you write an Email for Shambles? (111) (closed)
Important - Attention All Mudcatters (99)
Council Bans Morris Part 2 (73)
Council Bans Morris Dancing (103)
Day of action for live music 19th July (44)
Traditional activities and the law (13)
Sessions under threat in UK PART 2 (15)
Making Music Is Illegal. (56)
Urgent Help Required!! Threat to UK Sessions (11)


The Shambles 22 Jul 02 - 07:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jul 02 - 08:33 PM
The Shambles 23 Jul 02 - 05:57 AM
The Shambles 23 Jul 02 - 06:09 AM
My guru always said 23 Jul 02 - 08:00 AM
The Shambles 23 Jul 02 - 08:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jul 02 - 08:34 AM
Bullfrog Jones 23 Jul 02 - 09:16 AM
Bullfrog Jones 23 Jul 02 - 09:18 AM
The Shambles 23 Jul 02 - 09:55 AM
The Shambles 23 Jul 02 - 09:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jul 02 - 12:03 PM
The Shambles 23 Jul 02 - 01:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jul 02 - 04:03 PM
The Shambles 23 Jul 02 - 04:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jul 02 - 05:31 PM
Liz the Squeak 23 Jul 02 - 05:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jul 02 - 05:39 PM
Cappuccino 23 Jul 02 - 05:44 PM
vectis 23 Jul 02 - 05:55 PM
The Shambles 24 Jul 02 - 01:48 AM
Dave Bryant 24 Jul 02 - 04:19 AM
Lanfranc 24 Jul 02 - 05:51 AM
Dave Bryant 24 Jul 02 - 11:19 AM
The Shambles 24 Jul 02 - 02:35 PM
Micca 24 Jul 02 - 03:04 PM
Sarah the flute 24 Jul 02 - 03:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 02 - 04:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jul 02 - 06:36 PM
The Shambles 25 Jul 02 - 01:54 AM
The Shambles 25 Jul 02 - 02:59 AM
nickp 25 Jul 02 - 05:24 AM
Dave Bryant 25 Jul 02 - 06:25 AM
Brian Hoskin 25 Jul 02 - 06:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 02 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Neil the Goblin 25 Jul 02 - 11:02 AM
The Shambles 25 Jul 02 - 02:09 PM
The Shambles 25 Jul 02 - 02:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 02 - 03:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 02 - 07:18 PM
The Shambles 26 Jul 02 - 07:11 AM
The Shambles 26 Jul 02 - 12:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jul 02 - 12:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jul 02 - 12:54 PM
The Shambles 26 Jul 02 - 02:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jul 02 - 06:22 PM
The Shambles 27 Jul 02 - 04:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jul 02 - 05:19 AM
The Shambles 27 Jul 02 - 05:28 AM
The Shambles 27 Jul 02 - 06:45 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:










Subject: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 07:52 PM

http://www.jazznights.co.uk/musicissues.htm

More info on the above site of another Day of Action in London. This is on Wednesday 24 July 2002. Mid-day at The Red Lion in Whitehall.

A long way to come (for some) but I will be coming up from Dorset and I hope to meet you there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 08:33 PM

They don't give us much notice about these things do they? I'll see what I can do about getting there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 05:57 AM

Subject: RE: PELs Dr Howells on Mike Harding Show
From: fogie
Date: 23-Jul-02 - 04:04 AM

I hear on radio 4 that Billy Bragg is singing in a pub opposite the houses of parliament onWed 24 at 12 noon to confront the issues. There was quite an exchange in the house of commons yesterday. The pub is the Red Lion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 06:09 AM

Entertainment Licences

5. Lawrie Quinn (Scarborough and Whitby): What plans she has to reduce the cost of entertainment licences for live music in pubs and clubs. [68961]

The Minister for Tourism, Film and Broadcasting (Dr. Kim Howells): Our plans for the modernisation of the alcohol and entertainment licensing regimes were set out clearly in the White Paper "Time for Reform". The proposed new licensing system will remove at a stroke a considerable amount of existing red tape and reduce the licensing costs that currently deter many venues from providing live music and dancing. The reforms will be implemented by means of primary legislation to be introduced as soon as parliamentary time permits.

Lawrie Quinn: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer and for his recent excellent two-day visit to my constituency. [Hon. Members: "Two days?"] It is a big constituency. As he will remember, he had a listening brief on that occasion and, regretfully, turned down my invitation to go into some of the bars in Whitby to add his baritone voice to the great deal of notable folk-singing that goes on in the area. Next time he visits my constituency, will the people of Scarborough and Whitby be able to hear his lovely voice?

Dr. Howells: I could clear the entire Chamber within three bars.

Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome): May I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to early-day motion 1182, tabled in my name? It has been signed by nearly 200 right hon. and hon. Members, which underlines the view across the House that it is a ridiculous law that needs to be amended at the first opportunity. May I extend a welcome to him to visit not only Scarborough but, in a spirit of amity across the Bristol channel, the Red Lion, just across the road, at 12 o'clock on Wednesday, where I, other hon. Members and Billy Bragg will be engaged in a little light singing that may or may not contravene the present law, but will serve to show what a ridiculous law it is?

Dr. Howells: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will turn out to be a star performer, but it all sounds a bit left-wing for me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: My guru always said
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 08:00 AM

This Red Lion thing looks like a wonderful happening, but will it get the coverage it deserves??

I sure hope so!

Keep it up you two - you're not talking to yourselves - we hear you and are grateful ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 08:11 AM

Alcohol and Entertainment Licensing Bill

1. Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden): If she will make a statement on her policy towards the licensing of televising of sport in public houses under the terms of the proposed Alcohol and Entertainment Licensing Bill. [68956]

The Minister for Tourism, Film and Broadcasting (Dr. Kim Howells): As is the case with existing legislation, the proposed Alcohol and Entertainment Licensing Bill will not include the licensing of the televising of sport in public houses in its definition of public entertainment. A publican, of course, already requires and will continue to require a normal domestic television licence.

Siobhain McDonagh: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. However, given the licensing disparity between televised football and live music in pubs—the former is subject to no regulation but the latter is subject to a complicated regulation mechanism—will he encourage members of the Cabinet to look at introducing legislation in the Queen's Speech that will reform the public entertainment licence system and encourage live music and particularly young musicians in small venues?

Dr. Howells: We will certainly look at getting rid of the absurd two in a bar rule. I have looked long and hard at the evidence, but we have never received any to suggest that watching television in a pub causes the kinds of scenes that have sometimes occurred in pubs with live music. Nor, indeed, have we had any reports of disturbances caused by watching television in a pub—we have certainly received some reports of incidents following the playing of live music in pubs. Generally speaking, however, pubs are excellent venues for live music. We want to make sure that that continues to be the case and that there are more venues for live music, not fewer.

Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North): Following that very welcome answer, does my hon. Friend agree that the distinction between two musicians and seven musicians is irrelevant, and that the real issue is the amount of noise? A string quartet or an unamplified jazz group should be perfectly acceptable in a pub, should people choose to listen to them. Does he also agree that more venues for live music would give work to tens of thousands of amateur musicians and increase our country's cultural richness?

Dr. Howells: I am very much in favour of live music in pubs, but I am not in favour of any Minister in Parliament trying to define what constitutes jazz, folk music or any other kind of music. I have been the victim of one man with an amplifier that nearly blew my head off.

Mr. Speaker: Question 2. Mr. Mole is not here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 08:34 AM

I'll be there at the Red Lion - so that's me and the Shambles, from the Mudcat. Any more?

It's starting to look like we're getting a wee bit more attention. My wife said she just heard something on the radi about it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:16 AM

On the radi? The radish? radiator? radar? radical network? radiolaria? Be specific McG!!
With regard to televised football not causing disturbances in pubs, Howells is talking through his arse again. Anyone who went into a pub anytime in the twelve hours following England's World Cup morning kick-offs knows what it's like. AndAnd what's this nonsense about not being able to sing? The man's Welsh -- of course he can sing!!
BJ @@
(~~)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:18 AM

And I thought I was getting there with the HTML! (sigh)
BJ


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:55 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2145258.stm

The above link for the BBC coverage of the event and Billy Bragg's views.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:59 AM

Spontaeous and exempt it may be but if you had a good time and intend to repeat it the following week, it then becomes public entertainment and illegal without a licence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 12:03 PM

He didn't say he couldn't sing, just that it sounded horrible. That's plausible enough.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 01:37 PM

Where was Mr Mole?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 04:03 PM

I'm pretty sure there have been a number of occasions where football fans coming out of pubs after watching a match on the box have been involved in fights where serious injuries have occurred.

I know I dropped into town centre pub just after a match involving England in the World Cup, and it felt decidedly hairy - and that wasn't one where they'd lost, or where there were any local people backing the other team.

Howells really is an apology for a minister isn't he?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 04:14 PM

It certainly would be most useful to be able to find the evidence of disturbances at live TV sport coverage, that Dr Howells cannot find.

There must be press coverage of this somewhere?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 05:31 PM

Of course they wouldn't have any qualms about insisting on a special licences to allow people to watch TV in a pub, and then they'd enforce it against watching the Teletubbies - if they thought they could get away with it.

But any attempt to clamp down on TV in pubs would get a lot of people really pissed off with the minister responsible. Which is why he is clearly leaning over backwards not to see any evidence about discord in front of and after watching the box.

Here is a site which might provide ways of getting this information Research into Football Violence (Hooliganism!)

With giant TV screens talking the place of attendance at live football matches, notably during the World Cup, I think this might well be something that could repay investigation. After all, it's a sight easier for an overexcited fan to get tanked up at a virtual football match than at the real ones. And the people who've been banned from the real matches because they are violent nuts have to go somewhere.

But they won't be at the The Red Lion tomorrow.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 05:37 PM

I might.... depends if I can get out of work for a long lunch..... and if I can get down Tottenham Court Road in less than a lifetime!

LTS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 05:39 PM

Friday 17th August 2001 on the BBC Sports site:

The National Criminal Intelligence Service annual report shows 3,391 people were arrested for football-related offences last season - up 8.1% on the previous year.

It concluded that although violence inside stadiums is rare, the problem has shifted to stations, pubs and town centres.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Cappuccino
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 05:44 PM

I really am very sorry I can't be there. With you in spirit, though.

- Ian B


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: vectis
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 05:55 PM

Hope all goes well and you get loads of publicity. I'll be there in spirit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 01:48 AM

Well Lord Archer won't be stealing all the headlines today! Like he did the last time this was tried, for it was the day he got sent to prison and it did divert the journalist's attention from anything else.

I wonder what other news will turn up?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 04:19 AM

Work permitting, I should be able to make it.

McGrath - I'll have my Ashbury back-packer guitar with me, so if you've got yours we can play a duet !


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Lanfranc
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 05:51 AM

Had I received more notice, I could have been there, too, but there probably wouldn't have been room for me!

"De minimis non curat lex." = The law does not concern itself with trifles. It shouldn't, but it does, because it is too often enforced by Jobsworths.

Re Howells' singing voice, let Flanders & Swann have the last word:

"The Welshman's dishonest he cheats when he can
He's little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!"

Ducking swiftly and heading for the bunker recently vacated by Ann Robinson!

Alan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 11:19 AM

An enjoyable (and alcoholic) lunchtime was had by all who turned up. Watch Ch 5 and other news tonight and you might see Biily Bragg singing, accompanied by a group including The Shambles, McGrath, and yours truly - yes Kevin and I were duetting on back-packer guitars. Kevin also managed to sing his anti-PEL song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 02:35 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2149289.stm

The BBC news coverage above.

There were many TV people and press people at the event, it would be useful, if you see any of this in the media that you let us know here.

Thanks to all who turned up or were with with us in spirit. We do need, I think to organise a folk event, for the same purpose - any suggestions?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Micca
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 03:04 PM

Hi Guys, you were on the BBC London news on TV at 6.30!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 03:08 PM

I think I put my comments on the wrong PEL thread didn't see this one - saw the 6.30 news tho. Well done boys!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 04:12 PM

Billy Bragg was on R4 Front Row tonight talking about the campaign and demo.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 06:36 PM

Not at all bad. Mind, after Shambles comments about how at least this time we wouldn't be upstaged by Jeffrey Archer getting banged up, like the last time something like this happened, what do I see on the newspaper hoardings coming down: "Giant Asteroid on Collision Course with Earth".

Anyway we got in a few songs and tunes, though they wouldn't let ordinary people like us into the private do with Billy Bragg and the MPs in the cellar. But Billy came out and did a bit of stuff with us for the medua, picking on "I fought the Law" as his theme song for us to do with him. A bit defeatist. So Shambles switched it to "Time to make some changes", which is effectively the same tune anyway, but better words.

One of the policeman around was said to have told someone he played the uilleann pipes, and wished us good luck - and another to have asked if we could sing any Rebel Songs.

After we split up I drifted into the national gallery, and chanced upon a free concert of wind instruments, by students from the Royal College of Music. Whether they had a PEL I wouldn't know. And there was a free Braziliand Salsa Concert down in the crypt of St Martins in the Fields. So there is still music around, if you know where to look for it.

But walking back to the station I passed pub after pub, and one cafe and eating place after another - and it occurred to me that, though they differed enormously, they all had one thing in common. No live music.

In fact the only live music I heard was down in the underground - two really good buskers, a white bloke with a fiddle and a black bloke with a guitar. And no sooner had they started playing when up came the London Transport man, and apologetically ordered them off. And then on the train, the sound of a melodian, and it was a very young girl busking, and not at all bad, considering she was having to lay single handed with a paper cup in the other hand for the money, and not much of that.

It struck me as very appropriate that in both cases the music was illegal. Like most music in the Land of Hope and Glory.

Oh yes - and as I was walking down to the Red Lion, passing the Household Artillery sentries in their horses, what do I see lying in the road in front of me. A dead rat. You couldn't make it up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:54 AM

Now the dust has settled I think the event was good publicity for the MPs, the MU, and for Billy Bragg (who did a great job), but not so good for the issue affecting folk activities now.

There was no reason at all why the 8 or so musicians present, who after all are what the MU exists for, could not have played in the bar. Although it was a small bar, it had been hired as a private function by the MU, as the public did not have access, there were no legal restrictions on the number of musicians.

To restrict these good folk to the 'tradesmen's entrance' as an outside after-thought was a bit of an insult and counter-productive. I think that we will just have to organise ourselves, to get the message accross (what about Sidmouth?).

Two of those musicians had personal experience of the over-zealous by councils of unpaid sessions, but were largely ignored and not introduced to the many journalists. When I did manganed to speak to some, they seemed surprised. The information did not seem to be in the MU press pack or in the script for the day.

Too be fair, there was a fear that the event would be swamped with people expecting a Billy Bragg concert, and confusion that it was to be on the basis of the last event there, but that was hardly reason to largely ignore the very musicians the issue is affecting the most, or making the most of their apperance.

Hamish Birchall was there doing his best, but he is not the MU, just an advisor to them on this issue.

It was nice to see everyone but it was also nice to get back home to Dorset. LOL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:59 AM

Coverage and photos in the Times and Guardian today!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: nickp
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 05:24 AM

Made BBC TV local evening news here in Somerset (Points West) - mind you it was a good excuse to bring out of the archives the clip of the '2 Somerset singers' and the confrontation with The Yetties (was it?) but the bearded Mr. MP man is a local MP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 06:25 AM

The Photo in the Times has both McGrath and myself in it. The one in the Guardian has The Shambles looking over Billy's right shoulder and I just manage to squeeze in on the right.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 06:42 AM

The Guardian have a video of it on their website. Great stuff, you have to get to the end of the video to see the class musicians!

the video link is on this page

Well done everyone!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 10:43 AM

"Billy Bragg lead MPs in a singalong near Downing Street" - with me on one side of him and David Heath MP and Dave Bryant on the other, all as bushy-beared as any Archbishop of Canterbury.

The one who looks the way MPs are really supposed to look these days, at least Labour or Tory MPs, is Billy Bragg...(But David Heath is a Liberal Democrat, and they can still just about get still away sporting a beard.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: GUEST,Neil the Goblin
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 11:02 AM

There is a big MP hiding me,I didn't think that was possible.My work computer wont download the video,am I on it? or is David Heath covering me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:09 PM

Where did you disappear to Neil? (These bloody Hobgoblins)-Sorry I did not get to say goodbye.

On the video, you can be well heard but not seen....Unlike the MPs, with their mouths taped up, who can be seen but not heard!

And unlike Dave Bryant who I could be heard, even here in Dorset. *Smiles*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:28 PM

Dear old Boris Johnson was the 199th MP to sign EDM 1182.

He seems to haunt me. Last time I was in London I saw him (and his poor family) in the Tate. I was walking up Charing Cross Rd after the Red Lion gig and I saw him wobbling through the traffic, on his bike.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 03:30 PM

Boris Johnson - I've really got to get down the bookies and back him for future leader of the Conservative Party. He'd destroy Tony Blair in Parliamentary Question Time, I reckon. He'd probably destroy the Conservative Party as well. So that's two reasons to like him.

I can't get the video from the Guardian site either. Maybe there are hordes of people trying to get it at the same time or something. Or maybe I've got my computer set up wrong. What did you play it on Shambles?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 07:18 PM

Got the video sorted out - it's QuickTime, but it doesn't work well streaming with my connection either, so I downloaded it, which took a few miutes though. Good fun, and a memento of a day which was fun, and I hope useful.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 07:11 AM

Boris Johnson - I've really got to get down the bookies and back him for future leader of the Conservative Party. He'd destroy Tony Blair in Parliamentary Question Time, I reckon. He'd probably destroy the Conservative Party as well. So that's two reasons to like him.

He did a good job of destroying his bike too.

For those who do noy know, Boris is the large blond chap that Ian Hislop and Paul Merton taunt on 'Have I Got News For You', on BBC TV.

The following thoughts on seeing the video.

At the 24 July action. The MU had hired a bar in the pub as a private function. To hold the stunt and do interviews. As this was a private function and the public were excluded, there was no reason why the actual musicians there, could not have played inside. It was a small bar however......

Wisdom was to keep us outside (and from not paying if possible). Big bouncers on the door, 'if your name is not on the list', etc.

The on-line video of the event will show a nervous and inhibited Billy and MPs singing to an audience of 'snappers' and reporters. The best bit of this video is right at the end.

When they came out and joined us, the whole feeling of the event changed, as soon as all the musicians, who had only just met, joined together. Even under those circumstances, when the earlier audience were joined by a few members of the public (and policemen) outside - the magic of these get-togethers came over.

The best interviews Billy Bragg gave were also outside. I hope some lessons (by the MU) were leaned from this.

Don't tell anyone but there was even a little bit of dancing going on outside.............It was a shame the policeman on duty did not have his pipes wih him........Would it be true to say that only UK people would understand the twitchy and nervous nature of the music making outside on that day. These were based on our concerns for the licensee.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 12:27 PM

This Independent article makes an interesting point which underlines the point I was trying to make above.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20025C51


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 12:47 PM

Interesting point about how uptight the English tend to be about live music which isn't in a formal setting. However I suspect that it could as easily be a result of the restriction which have marginalised and illegalised it, rather thean the reason these restrictions are there in the first place.

With people like Kim Howells the bottom line is topurism. If enough Americans especially make a noise about how they are going to go to places which are music friendly rather than here, it might get through. Wityhout tta therre is a real danger well not get the kind of change that would liberate music (and liberate people), but th esort that will cage us a little more (which is what current proposals look like doing) will be.

So please please tell them you are going to boycott England, until things change for the better. And it doiesn't matter if in fact you have no plans to visit this country in any case - or if you have every intention of coming.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 12:54 PM

One thinm we need to do to try to change the way we talk about this, and encourage other people to talk about it. By referring to the "two-in a bar rule" we've made it easy for Kim Howells to talk about "abolishing the absurd two-in-a-bar rule" in a way that makes it sound as if he is loosening the restrictions.

We should talk of the "two-in-a-bar exemption" to the general rule forbidding music without a licence in a public place. We don't want the two-in-a-bar rule abolished. We want the exemption widened to allow us to make music as we wish, so long as it doesn't annoy or endanger people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 02:14 PM

The exemption is to what is licensable - "a performance of music or dancing".

It is this defintion that is the problem now and one that will remain unchanged, as there is nothing in the White Paper about changing it.

For there is no legal definition of what a 'performance' is or what is a 'performer'. So our Government just go ahead and bring in reform of something that has never been identfied.

For before music becomes an industry or a profession, it is and must be a means of free expression.

If or when the volume of that expression should present a real noise hazard to others, measures to address this should quite rightly be undertaken. But all music making should not be placed at risk because sometimes and in some places, a noise hazard MAY occur. Or because revenue can be obtained from placing a charge on commercial entertainment.

For the above is the current Civil Service thinking behind the new legislation they are now drafting.

We really need to set up a pressure group that is only interested in ensuring that all types of music making can be enabled everywhere, and never be criminalised.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 06:22 PM

Imagine they applied these kind of rules to spoken communication. It would be illegal to talk in any public place without a licence; but with an exemption so that no more than two people in a bar could talk in an evening. (And talking in church would be OK too.)

And once people started to say (in writing of course, since they wouldn't be allowed to say it out loud) that a two-in-a-bar rule like that was absurd, the kind government would change it so that no-one could talk in a bar, unless the landlord had applied for a talking licence along with his drinks licence, indicating how many people would be wishing to talk in an evening, and what kind of things they might be saying.

And then there'd be a suggestion that maybe spontaneous talking might be allowed, so long as not too many people listened to it, because that would mean it was a performance, and would need a licence.

It really isn't any more ridiculous than the situation we've got ourselves into. And I'm sure that in fact restrictions on our right to communicate in song and music are in breach of the human rights which are now protected by law, and are completely illegal. If it ever got to a court that took such matters into consideration.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 04:57 AM

Of course if you recorded your talking on CD, you could then have a well paid DJ go into any premises and play it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 05:19 AM

Maybe if you used a mobile phone to talk to the other people in the room with you that would be OK too...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 05:28 AM

I feel that the fight should concentrate on the current legislation, for it will be with us yet for some time. However as the only answers forthcoming will be that the new legislation will solve all of our problems, it is as well to know what exactly is proposed, rather than all these reassurances and provisos that Ministers and Civil Servants look like they are making up, as they go along and do not appear in any of the proposals.

 The licensing of the sale and consumption of alcohol is one important concern.

 Ensuring the health and safety of the people working in, and those present in all public places, for whatever activity taking place there, is another important concern and one for which more than adequate legislation already exists.

White Paper

1. Why does this White Paper (above) link forever and for no positive reason, two quite unconnected elements - live music making and alcohol consumption and place both of these in the hands of local authorities, whose handling of public entertainment licensing alone has been so criticised by the Government? Both on the type of enforcement action taken by them and on the setting of fees?

2. Why then is live music making on premises, where the public's safety has been assured, to be the only matter to be combined with the licensing of alcohol? When not all, live music making takes place on liquor licensed premises?

3. The same concerns for the public's interests and safety occur for music making, by way of pre-recorded sound (DJs) and for crowds attracted to the live showing of TV sporting events. Why then will these activities not be licensable and not require prior permission from the Licensing Authority?

4. If the purpose of this legislation is the public's interests and safety, why is the "two in a bar" exemption alone to be scrapped, exposing all live music making in public houses to the licensing requirement?

5. In the public's interest and safety, why is the exemption (not in London) for music in a place of public religious worship, not also to be scrapped?

6. Although not in the White Paper, the DCMS in a letter to me 07/06/02 states that. "It is currently the Government's intention to make all places of public religious worship exempt from the requirement for permission to stage a public entertainment in so far as is possible." Is the idea that currently closely regulated public houses, with adequate heating lighting and sanitation, are less safe for live music making than, some of our ancient churches with little or none of these facilities?

7. Also not in the White Paper are statements from Dr Howells (on BBC Radio 2), to the effect that sessions where "no money changes hands", would be exempt from the future licensing requirement. This proposal, if I could trust it, may just possibly enable sessions, but gives the lie to this legislation being about the public's safety. For the same risks apply to live music making, paid or otherwise.

8. Why should payment deprive a live musician of the rights given to the public (and DJs)?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: 24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 06:45 AM

Just received a letter from Dr Howells. It is a long one but the following, in connection with not making live TV in pubs licensable, is a hoot!

-"we are proposing a deregulatory and not a regulatory Bill"

The 'two in a bar rule' was originally introduced as a deregulatory measure!

Good old 'Sir Humphrey', he has drafted our Kim a good one for him to sign this time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 23 February 3:06 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.