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Help: nic jones reissue

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GUEST,james_piercy@hotmail.com 15 Jul 02 - 08:32 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 02 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,pavane 15 Jul 02 - 10:00 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 02 - 10:10 AM
pavane 16 Jul 02 - 02:04 AM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 07:49 AM
greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 10:07 AM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 11:54 AM
greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Nerd 16 Jul 02 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Nerd 16 Jul 02 - 02:21 PM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 02:32 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 03:00 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,greg stephens cookieless 16 Jul 02 - 03:18 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 03:49 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 03:54 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 04:41 PM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 04:48 PM
Harry Basnett 16 Jul 02 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 04:54 PM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,Lo and Behold 16 Jul 02 - 09:40 PM
GUEST,Nerd 17 Jul 02 - 01:15 AM
GUEST,greg stephens 17 Jul 02 - 01:33 AM
Fossil 17 Jul 02 - 05:01 AM
Harry Basnett 17 Jul 02 - 01:46 PM
RolyH 17 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM
Ralphie 17 Jul 02 - 04:15 PM
Ralphie 17 Jul 02 - 04:16 PM
RolyH 17 Jul 02 - 04:21 PM
Harry Basnett 17 Jul 02 - 04:42 PM
RolyH 17 Jul 02 - 05:29 PM
Ralphie 18 Jul 02 - 02:25 AM
Ralphie 18 Jul 02 - 02:35 AM
GUEST 18 Jul 02 - 11:58 AM
Ron Olesko 18 Jul 02 - 01:06 PM
Harry Basnett 18 Jul 02 - 02:29 PM
Harry Basnett 18 Jul 02 - 02:34 PM
Ron Olesko 18 Jul 02 - 03:08 PM
pavane 18 Jul 02 - 05:29 PM
RolyH 18 Jul 02 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Colin 19 Jul 02 - 11:03 AM
Ralphie 19 Jul 02 - 01:09 PM
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GUEST 19 Jul 02 - 01:58 PM
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pavane 19 Jul 02 - 09:19 PM
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treewind 20 Jul 02 - 05:04 AM
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RolyH 20 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM
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pavane 20 Jul 02 - 10:14 PM
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Subject: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,james_piercy@hotmail.com
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 08:32 AM

I hear that finally Nic's first album "Ballads and songs" has been reissued. LERCD2014. I've been trying for a week and can't find anyone who knows where to get it though. Anybody help? James


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 08:40 AM

See your previous thread


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 10:00 AM

This is a Celtic Music/Bulmer issue. Please read the Celtic Music threads before trying to purchase.

Would you buy this knowing that Nic will not receive a penny from it? (I will take it back if I am proved wrong)

Would you support any organisation which would knowingly deprive a substantial number of other folk performers of their rightful income?

Would you buy it if it was burned on a home CR writer, not commercially pressed? Better check first!


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 10:10 AM

Yes to 1 and 3 - I want to hear this music. Is that so wrong?

If Nic gets no money from it, I'll send him a cheque for the amount he's being 'ripped off'

Come on, have you never had a friend tape you an album?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 02:04 AM

See the other Nic Jones reissue thread. CM are ripping off the whole UK folk scene, not just Nic.

In buying, you are contributing to their funds which they could use in defence costs against being sued for outstanding royalties.

And Nic does NOT receive a penny, even though it is due.

But go ahead and be selfish if you must. I will not replace my scratched vinyl just yet.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 07:49 AM

Well Pavane,

Being as you already have the recordings, you have no need to be 'selfish'

I've wanted to hear this stuff for years. I've hunted high and low for vinyl copies but can't find them.

If wanting to hear great music is selfish, then I'll hold my hands up and admit that I am.

As I've already stated, I'd send a cheque off to Mollie Music if I ever found bootleg copies.

How can I better proceed, morally?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 07:59 AM

I'm ignorant of technolgy, what ecactly is the difference between the way commercial quantities of CD's are produced, and the sort of thing you can buy to copy CD's at home. I'd sort of imagined that the point of"digital" was that a copy is an exact copy. Is this not actually the case?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 10:07 AM

No, the way a home CD writer 'burns' a CD is totally different, and the copies are thought to be much less reliable, and probably have a shorter life.

It IS an exact copy, but made with different technology

Rather like the difference between a wax cylinder and pressed vinyl.

And yes, guest, I can sympathise. The performances are excellent. But I understand that Nic himself does not want these reissues to be available.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 10:45 AM

Having read the threads about David Bulmer, I'm still confused over the situation. Perhaps being on this side of the Atlantic I'm not aware of the whole story.

Please correct me if my summation is inaccurate. I'm not trying to flame this issue, but I'm honestly trying to understand the situation.

From what I gathered from the threads, David Bulmer PURCHASED the rights to catalogs from several now defunct record labels. He is holding the rights to several Nic Jones recordings and recently has released a few titles. Bulmer had refused in the past to relinquish the rights to these recordings or sell them to Nic Jones.

As a humanitarian and patron of the arts, this David Bulmer will probably not win an award. As a businessman, I don't really see that he has done anything wrong. This whole issue points out a sad fact that artists would sign over rights to their work for a variety of reasons. At the time it seemed like a good career move - maybe selling albums, maybe gaining recognition, or maybe just to make a living. Now in retrospect the deal didn't work out in the artists favor. In this country I know of many artists who signed away the rights to their recordings.

Still, if it weren't for these original "deals", would we have had any of these "national treasures" in the first place? If Jones didn't sign that contract, would we EVER have had the opportunity to hear "Ballads and Songs".

Personally I would opt to buy the "legal" releases - In Search of Nic Jones and Unearthed. However, I do understand our guests interest in wanting to hear these classics. While he may not be helping Nic Jones by purchasing them, he certainly isn't doing anything illegal or immoral for that matter.

This whole situation really points out the fact that an artist needs to be careful before signing their name to the dotted line.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 11:54 AM

I agree with you Ron. The level of hysteria surrounding Nic Jones's albums owned by Dave Bulmer has really befuddled the actual situation. As I understood the past debates here (and Ralphie's contribution to it in particular), it was my understanding that everyone was after Bulmer to release the albums. Now that he has reissued a LEGAL release of "Ballads and Songs" the Jones camp is screaming at people for buying it.

I found the cover to "Unearthed" to be grossly offensive. I find the Jones camp's attempts to bully the buying public equally offensive. There is an utter lack of integrity in the way both sides have conducted themselves, and neither camp has any moral high ground, IMO.

Nic Jones' work never rose to the level of "national treasure" in my opinion, but I also realize that is a matter of taste. Sometimes we are haunted when we actually get the one thing we said we wanted. I think this is the case with the Jones camp. This latest development demonstrates to me loud and clear what the whole Jones/Bulmer saga has been about--and it isn't about the buying public getting to hear these "national treasures" at all. It is about money. Pure and simple.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 12:11 PM

I agree with SeanN, the heat generated by this topic makes it a bit difficult to grasp what is going on. I thought I'd got it figured that this Bulmer guy's crime was not issuing Nic Jones recordings. Now it seems to have turned into issuing Nic Jones recordings. And if his crime used to be not issuing Nic Jones, how was he making money out of it? You have to sell records before you start stealing musicians' royalties dont you? I'm bewildered.
Don't know if Nic Jones is a "national treasure" or not. What nation are we speaking about, I think there may be a confusion between different posters here..


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 12:24 PM

The "national treasure" thing came about from a post from Dick Gaughan in, I think, uk.music.folk some time ago. He said that the masters that Celtic Music owned were a national treasure, and that his behavior amounted to cultural theft. Mind, Dick Gaughan has also been ripped off by Celtic Music, so I'm not sure he is the best authority on the subject, as he too has an ax to grind.

So, to answer your question, the nation involved in the "national treasure" argument is Britain. While Dick Gaughan favors more sovereignty for Scotland, he still manages to be conveniently pro-British under these sorts of circumstances. The argument being, it was once thought better that the "national treasures" had been bought by a shady character (Bulmer) who was British, rather than being bought up by (God forbid) an American label like Rounder Records or some similar business interest that buys up old masters.

Ron is right. Musicians lose the rights to their songs because THEY SELL THEM FOR MONEY. I was watching a program about the Beach Boys the other night on the telly. It seems that the Wilson boy's father sold all the rights to their hit music of the 1960s for $700,000. That catalogue is now estimated to be worth $20 million or so.

Now that Mollie Music has generated the publicity to sell Nic's last two CDs by manufacturing the "poor disabled Nic Jones" controversy, the reissue by Bulmer can now threaten their sales. The fact is, Nic's disability never had anything to do with the facts in the circumstance. Nic lost the rights to his songs. It happens to a lot of musicians, many of whom fall on hard times every bit as bad as Nic's. The whole thing just leaves a bad taste.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 01:28 PM

People are missing an essential ingredient of Bulmer's conduct on this thread. He is not paying the royalties he owes to the artists when he does release these CDs. He is indeed being both illegal and immoral, and several of his companies have been shut down as a result, but he always rises from the ashes with a new company which is a thinly-disguised version of the old one(s).

Here is the situation as I understand it:

Nic sold the rights to his albums for money--and for an agreement that he would receive royalties.

Bulmer acquired the rights after the original owner (whom Nic trusted) went out of business (and then passed away).

Bulmer sat on the albums for years, falsely claiming that there was a vast stockpile of vinyl copies remaining, and that when that stockpile was exhausted he would reissue on CD.

So far, nothing done by either side is illegal, but you could argue that Bulmer was being pretty mean, which is the argument the so-called "Nic Jones Camp" generally makes.

BUT:

Eventually Bulmer issues cheap CD-R copies, labeled as though they were commercially pressed CDs, and pays no royalties to the artists.

NOW, he has both broken the law (not paying royalties) and engaged in questionable business practices (labeling homemade CD-Rs as CDs).

So in conclusion, Bulmer is in some of his dealings a mean, deceitful, lawbeaker and a swindler. I understand that he's not a monster, that he has friends in the folk world, etc. But at least in some cases he has done very bad things. As a result he faces constant lawsuits and is under several forms of legal censure--all of which is detailed in the Bulmer/Celtic Music threads.

Most people who know the situation think that it is partly because of these legal battles that he issues a CDR every now and then--he needs a quick infusion of cash to defend himself from a lawsuit. So if you buy these CDRs, you are probably adding money to his legal defense fund so that he can continue to avoid paying royalties.

That's the full argument. Whether the "Nic Jones camp" has been disingenuous is another argument, which I'm not prepared to enter. I guess I'd be identified, if not as a NJC member, at least as a sympathizer with their cause. While I would like to see all his albums reissued (which may not be Nic's position--I don't know), I'd like it to be on real factory-pressed CDs, with high-quality reproduction of booklets, etc, and legal so that Nic gets royalties.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 01:58 PM

As I understand it, Nic would also like a proper commercial reissue, with royalties paid.

It is not even clear if these CD's were recorded from the original masters - it didn't sound like it on the radio.

As far as I am aware, failure to pay royalties is NOT illegal, but a breach of contract, a civil matter, and you have to sue in order to recover them. Remember that Bulmer's partner was a lawyer (struck-off,I believe).

Few folk artists can afford to take this action, as it is costly and may not succeed. That is what CM are relying on. Many singers are caught, but can make new recordings. Nic doesn't have that option.

Some folk singers have been reduced to bootlegging their own records to raise money.

I think Peter Bellamy was also affected, which may have been a factor in his tragic death.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 02:21 PM

I'd agree with Pavane, except on the legal definitions. Just because it's not criminal doesn't mean it's not illegal, does it? Isn't breaking a contract illegal? It is a civil matter, but surely a matter of civil LAW, as a contract is a legally-binding document. I think most of us would define a company refusing to pay wages as illegal, even though it's a civil matter of breach of contract rather than one of criminal law.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 02:32 PM

Nerd, that is a very good point if it is true that Bulmer is issuing CD-R's instead of replicated CD's. However that is a different issue as opposed to royalites and issuing of albums.

I am not a lawyer, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I belive payment of royalties would be based on a contract. IF an artist signs away the rights to their recording the contract could also include the right for royalities. I have no idea of what contract Nic Jones signed when he did the original deal, but it is a question that should be asked.

Bulmer may not be a wonderful person to do business with, but the sad fact remains that legally he owns the rights to these recordings and can do what he pleases. Does anyone know what kind of risk Bulmer took when he purchased the rights and how much he paid for them?

None of us like to see art treated in this manner but we are talking about a business deal.

I agree with Nerd that I would love to see the Nic Jones catalog issued on CD with nice booklets and Nic getting the royalties and recognition he deserves. However the business is what the business is. At least Nic has been able to issue two brilliant recordings on his own.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:00 PM

To put all this in a bit of perspective, folk records like this dont sell very much in the UK.The amounts of money involved would probably be a great deal less than any of us would guess.Not that Nic Jones doesnt deserve whatever income he can get from royalties, but dont imagine there's a comfortable living wage at stake here, from royalties alone.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:00 PM

Pavane said:

"I think Peter Bellamy was also affected, which may have been a factor in his tragic death."

These kinds of hysterical statements are wholly baseless. A difficult business man Bulmer may be, but not he, or any other human being, has the kind of power to effect others being attributed to Bulmer in these Celtic Music urban legends.

This is why so many of us have no respect for the Jones camp. They claim Bulmer kicked a cripple when he was down, now are making spurious claims that he bears some responsibility for the death of another folk musician.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? Nic Jones sold his rights. No one here has seen a copy of the contract, and so doesn't know if he lost his right to royalties along with the rights to the songs.

Bulmer obviously has decided to cash in on Nic's current popularity, knowing a lot of people will buy his reissue, in addition to the Mollie Music releases. Prior to the upsurge in interest in Nic, he had no incentive to reissue Nic's material, as Nic was no longer in the business and so couldn't generate sales. That happens all the time, like Ron says--business is business.

OTOH (again), the Jones camp seem to think that Bulmer ought to run Celtic Music as a charity in Nic's case, and just turn over the masters, the rights and the royalties to him because he is no longer able to earn a living as a musician. Of course, that doesn't mean the same thing as he isn't able to earn a living, as we've seen with his resurrection in the music business through Mollie Music.

I don't guess he is getting rich from the release of the two albums, but I'm guessing that the albums are making him some money now. But that still doesn't seem to be enough to satisfy the Jones camp.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:06 PM

The police can't arrest you for breach of contract, can they? I take illegal to mean contrary to criminal law.

As we don't have copies of the contracts, we don't know what rights people may have signed away, but royalties are unlikely to have been one of them!

I still don't understand what kind of business it is to sit on something worth money for so many years. Maybe that's why I'm not rich (look at Centre Point in London).

Over the years, these recordings could have made plenty of money, even if the royalties were paid.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:16 PM

Guest I know that some of Peter Bellamy's recordings were 'bulmerised'. I don't think my statement was hysterical, and you have no provided no evidence that it was baseless.

I met Peter some while before his death, and also know his brother-in-law.

YOU are the one making unsupported claims. No-one has asked for charity, just what is due under a contract. Companies which do not honour contracts are usually run by dishonest people. Unfortunately those who have the deepest pockets tend to win in civil cases.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens cookieless
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:18 PM

as Nic Jones discussions are always bedevilled by GUESTS, with or without fictitious personas: I should point out that I made the posting about the amounts of money likely to be involved being pretty small. Didnt notice I wasnt registering as me: Mudcat doesnt seem to remember me for very long at a time today.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:20 PM

Pavane--what proof have you, exactly, that Bulmer is responsible for Peter Bellamy's death?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM

What people should notice is that the shit-stirring in Nic Jones threads is done purely and simply for fun,not to promote a particular viewpoint. A little basic linguistic analysis on related threads will show that one or more persons invariably raise the temperature of the discussion by posting on different sides under different names(or no names).Read and admire the skill, but dont take the arguments seriously. You will notice now how QUEST is skifully goading GUEST Pavane (who is genuinely arguing, but GUEST isnt).


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM

Actually Pavane, the contract issue is what is most germane to this discussion. The fact is, Nic Jones sold his rights. Period. End of discussion.

Suggesting that someone other than Peter Bellamy is responsible for his own suicide is a ghastly awful and twisted thing to suggest. Grow up.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM

I am well aware of the 'goading' of the guest, which I am using for my own purposes (to keep this thread going).

SeanN, are you familiar with the publishing business? As in most fields, people sign contracts which give both sides rights. You don't get published unless you do.

Have you seen a copy of the contact in question? Then don't assume its contents. Recording contracts provide for the artist to receive royalties. Signing one does NOT sign away all your rights, it is there to protect them.

A contract is an agreement between parties as to what rights each has. For one party to renege on this is called 'breach of contract'. Contracts, and the ability to enforce them, are essential to business and society.

(Of course, when the Government doesn't keep its word, that is something different - isn't it?)


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:49 PM

There is one thing that just hit me. How much money do you think we are talking about? Maybe it is different in Great Britian, but I don't see many folk musicians driving fancy cars or living in mansions here in the U.S. We aren't talking Britney Spears or Madonna royalties. Folk music is not the field to get rich in - promoter or artist.

Even if Bulmer paid Nic Jones royalties, I would be amazed if the numbers amounted to much.

I could be completely wrong about this in the case of Nic Jones, but here in the U.S. "big" selling CD's might mean 20,000 copies. Re-issues might sell significantly less. So what would royalities be- a couple of thousand at most? Granted in Nic's case that could pay some bills, but the point I'm trying to get at is that nobody is getting rich with this music. Nic Jones and David Bulmer are not in the same league as Michael Jackson and Tommy Motolla.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:54 PM

Hmmmm. Which greg stephens is behind the curtains a numbr of greg stephens seem to be using in this thread--anonymous GUEST, GUEST,greg stephens, GUEST,greg stephens cookieless, or member greg stephens?

Talk about shit stirring.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:02 PM

Pavane, not all of us are idiots. Some of us are actually quite familiar with the UK folk music business, know the facts about Nic Jones & his sale of his rights and royalties. His story is oft repeated as a morality tale on what not to do when approached by business men offering too good to be true deals. There are many sad tales of folk musicians ripping themselves off in this way in an effort to get quick cash. Legend has it some pawn their instruments, live off their girlfriends/wives, and sell their blood, too.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:27 PM

Ron O: a couple of grand was my ball park estimate as well...there are posibly big principles at stake here, but tiny bucks.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM

I'm curious greg--what are the big principles you think might be at stake?

As to the money--it doesn't take much of it to get people fighting over it, especially among those who don't have a lot of it.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:41 PM

I only put "possibly", SeanN.(well actually I put posibly). The principles seem to be big enough to stir a lot of people up, some genuinely.I think they've been pretty well rehearsed already, and I have no personal knowledge to add anything relevant. My only contributions that I think are of any validity are (a) the amount of money involved is probably bugger all (2) 90% of the "arguing" is artificially generated.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:48 PM

You are right Greg, there are principles at stake and probably is more important than the money. The only reason I brought it up was to put it in perspective. It isn't fair to give a perception that either party is getting rich off of these recordings in this day and age. Record companies as a whole are suffering. It isn't easy to re-issue an artists work, no matter how good it might be. The record company has to make a relatively significant investment in terms of production of the project which includes printing, manufacturing, distribution, etc. It is rare to hear people complain that a record company loses money when they re-issue a CD of a 1930's jug band. However if the surviving members of that jug band aren't receiving monthly royalty checks people cry that the artist is getting ripped off.

Please don't think that I'm not supporting the artist by my above statement. I do feel that artists need better contracts and opportunities, but I also feel that it is a two way street.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:53 PM

I think in these discussions we tend to forget other artists whose material has been "lost"...examples being the late Tony Rose, Pete and Chris Coe, Dave and Toni Arthur as well as recordings by traditional singers such as George Dunn...I don't know Mr. Bulmer but as he is a folk musician himself I cannot understand his reluctance to release these recordings to everyones satisfaction...including his own.

All the best..............Harry Basnett.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:54 PM

Thanks for the response greg, but you are still invoking "the principles" without enumerating them. I really am curious as to what you think they are, as you aren't expressing any allegiance with those on either side of the argument. Which is quite skillful on your part, of course, and you are to be complimented for it! I'm genuinely interested in what someone who claims neutrality on this subject, sees as the main principles at stake. Some people involved in these discussions seem to be clawing their way to a place they believe is the moral high ground, only to find themselves sinking in quick sand. Your remark about principles piqued my interest. Of course, you are under no obligation to satisfy my curiousity. I'm just hoping you will humor me.

I make no claim of being neutral here--I have been disgusted with both sides (Jones and Bulmer) for quite some time now. Do my strong sentiments of disgust for both sides make me a member of that same Great Center you seem to be trying to occupy as well? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:54 PM

I brought a record out in the 70's that was modestly influential.It's been described as a collectors item. Fantastic reviews, loads of people talked aboutit, recorded tunes off it, and it helped start a lot of interest in NW English music. It sold perhaps 400 copies. It's about to be reissued on CD. I'll be more than happy if it sells as many again. Look out for the stretch limo.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:59 PM

Harry, I don't know David Bulmer or how deeps his pockets are, but issuing CD's cost $$ or perhaps ££ £ is more appropriate in this discussion. There are so many recordings that I wish were available on CD but the reality is the market is very, very, very small.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM

honestly, Sean I have no principles to add that havent been much better expressed. if you want my personal opinion on the rights and wrongs of the case: i dont know the facts, but if what thegeneral flow of what is said is true: Bulmer should have given the whole package to Nic Jones to exploit as best he could. Nic's had big troubles. The rights might have helped him a bit,and their loss wouldnt have done Bulmer much harm. And he could always have reserved a wee slice for himself.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM

Greg,

Would that be 'Beggar Boy of the North'?

Sorry for the thread drift, but do tell us the re-release info, please


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:03 PM

Would that be the Celtic Music stretch limo, or the Mollie Music stretch limo? ;-)

Harry, right you are about the reissue of the albums. The thing is, as Ron has pointed out, it does take money to reissue albums. Apparently, Mr. Bulmer is sitting on several out of business UK record label catalogues, with many albums no longer available to the buying public.

As reissuing old folk albums it is not a lucrative business, it does beg the question--why tell people not to buy one of the most sought after of the bunch when it finally gets reissued, especially when you've been whingeing around about wanting it to be reissued in the first place?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:06 PM

My God, a GUEST who knows about the better things in life. Yes I was talking about the Beggar Boy....you see, everyone, people do exist who've heard of it. I haven't got a date yet, we're just talking about it: got to run it past my American lawyers to check the world rights situation, you know the sort of thing. I would hope within 3 months.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:40 PM

Thanks again for your reply greg. I have to admit, the "bigger principles" have me baffled. I just don't see any "bigger principles" at stake than musicians learning not to sell their rights without consulting a good lawyer.

As to your suggestion that Mr. Bulmer be charitable and just give Nic the masters and rights for his catalog so Nic could put out the "priceless" reissues himself--that sort of reasoning goes a bit too far the other side of sensibility and fairness, IMO. Mr. Bulmer's business interest in hanging on to the masters and rights to the back catalogues he invested in when no one would have anything to do with them, is just as legitimate as Nic's desire to have the masters and rights to music he himself sold for cash of his own free will.

Sometimes it really does pay to let bygones be bygones, and let the sleeping dogs lie, as they say.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:43 PM

And greg--you should always check with a good American lawyer--it appears all the British solicitors are in bed with the Bulmers of the world.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Lo and Behold
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 09:40 PM

Just passing through here, and what do I find but the same sad misinformation being spouted as fact. Again. As always seems to happen anywhere in cyberspace the British folk congregate.

My guess is that this thread started as a knock-on effect of the one which ran until a couple of days ago in uk.music.folk. Same misinformation, presented in much thed same way as we've seen it here.

As has been mentioned in threads here before, the further from England you get, the less rancorous people are about Celtic Music and the less interested they are in the Bulmer/Jones debate. I notice but two posts on this Jones reissue in rec.music.folk--one to stir the pot by Pete Coe, claiming the CD was probably a substandard CDR (it isn't, but is a good quality CD reissue). And a follow up by one Pat Hurley of Dublin, who presents a very different picture of Celtic Music and the CD in question.

So is uk.music.folk's Pete Coe the source of this wrong information being presented as fact in Mudcat?

Nah--I'm sure it is just one of those public relations coincidences, where the Jones camp dutifully marches on in it's jihad against Celtic Music.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:15 AM

Thanks for sharing, Lo And Behold. I'll take a gander at the new Jones reissue when I see it, but I have my doubts. What I do know is, I have copies of a Ray Fisher reissue and a Robin and Barry Dransfield reissue, both on Celtic Music, both of which are CDRs but not labeled as such. The disc is printed and packaged as a CD, no cheap paper labels, etc, but the record expert who gave them to me analyzed them and told me they were CDRs. So are you quite sure it's a good quality CD reissue? Your home CD player won't tell you, so how did you find out?

Pavane,

Not to split hairs, but if a company "illegally" dumps toxic waste near my house, they can be sued but generally no one will go to jail. This does not mean their actions are legal. Breaking a contract is no more legal--it's just a violation of civil codes rather than criminal ones.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:33 AM

Welcome Lo and Behold, always nice to greet a first time poster...under that name at least. Yet somehow the style seems strangely familiar.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Fossil
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 05:01 AM

By a strange quirk o' fate, I had "In search of ..." on the player when I started this Mudcat session. I admit to being a Nic Jones fan - have been for years. In amongst all this mudslinging by "guests" of various shapes and sizes, let's not forget the issues which led to this discussion.

Nic Jones is a great musician and a singer. Until his accident, now so many years ago, he was making a living playing and singing. After the accident, he was hospitalised and (apart from a few recent for-fun things), has never worked since. What exists on his back catalogue of recordings represented a resource which could have done a lot to mitigate his family circumstances during the long years of his recovery. The actions of Dave Bulmer and Celtic Music - deliberately undertaken, it seems - deprived Nic of income and the folk world of the opportunity to hear his music. That's the issue. That's the reason for the "jihad". Don't let all this legalistic quibbling distract readers from the basic issues.

Don't buy the reissues. Content yourself with the Jones/Mollie Music issues, which are brilliant. For the rest of it, wait until Bulmer and his sorry crew get their comeuppance and hope that whoever takes over the catalogue does the decent thing.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:46 PM

As a matter of interest cany anyone provide a comprehensive list of the Trailer/Leader, etc., recordings so we may know the full extent of exactly what is at issue here?

Harry Basnett.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: RolyH
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM

Off the top of me head artists who have "Bulmer" recordings

Nic Jones<
Tony Rose
Andrew Cronshaw
Boys of the Lough
The Taveners
Dick Gaughan
Robin and Barry Dransfield
Mike and Lal Waterson
Roy Bailey
Peter Bellamy
Dave Burland
Ray Fisher
Vin Garbutt
Roger Nicholson Billy Pigg
Charlie Wills
The Coleman Family
Alistair Anderson
THe High Level Ranters
Colin Ross
"Unto Brigg Fair"

Plus a few more that dont come to mind at the moment(feel free to add)


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 04:15 PM

Pete and Chris Coe (at least 2 albums, if not all three)

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 04:16 PM

Oh...and Bandoggs of course


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: RolyH
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 04:21 PM

I forgot

Pete and Chris Coe
Barbara Dickson
Bandoggs
Aly Bain
Mike Whellans
Tim Lyons
The Copper Family
Seamus Innes
Jack Elliot
Martin Byrnes
Plus countless "field" recordings

Any More?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 04:42 PM

So it should be clear to any newcomers to the UK folk scene and 'catters from elsewhere in the world that we are dealing with something a great deal bigger than just Nic's recordings here!! This is a wealth of valuable second revival material to which we have no access!

I do not wish to labour a point here...I just want people to realise why this situation is so imortant to so many people and why, I'm afraid, this saga will run and run!!

Harry Basnett.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: RolyH
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 05:29 PM

A few more

John Kirkpatrick
Walter Pardon
The North Carolina Boys
Mike Harding
Seamus Tansey & Eddie Cochrane


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 02:25 AM

Not absolutely certain, but possibly (via Rubber)
Caddick, Laycock,Bond
Hedgehog Pie
John Doonan
The Sheffield Christmas Carol album

Yes, Harry, this goes far beyond Nic...
And, Just a thought.
Whatever people may think of Nic as an artist, it can't be denied that he was fairly influential in his time.
So, the re release of his first album should have been announced with fanfares of many trumpets, full page ads in Folk Roots and elsewhere. Indeed anything to maximise sales. What do we get, One mention on Folk on 2 (no mention on their excellent web site).
I didn't actually see much promo material for "Bright Phoebus" or "Lord of all I behold" either!
What sort of record company doesn't want to sell records!
It's beyond me!
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 02:35 AM

Of course, with respect to all the artists above, some would not sell many copies nowadays, so, for a struggling record label, it would be well nigh impossible to finance the release of such a huge body of work. Which makes the lack of publicity for the release of (arguably) two of the Jewels in the crown, namely "Ballads and Songs" and "Bright Phoebus" even more inexplicable.
Ralphie....(Shuffling off left, shaking his head!)


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 11:58 AM

I have several questions which have never been satisfactorily answered by the Jones camp.

1) When did Nic Jones sell the rights to his songs, and to whom? Why did Nic Jones sell his rights, and did he consult a solicitor with experience in such matters before he signed those rights away?

2) Considering that Nic was no longer able to perform and promote his records after his accident, just how was him regaining the rights to his work supposed to have made a substantial economic difference in his and his family's quality of life?

3) What record label would have sunk their financial and other resources into Nic Jones reissues when there was no market for them for most of the past 20 years, and Nic wasn't able to promote them for sale after the hypothetical release?

4) Why do the Jones camp feel the above issues, when discussed rationally, somehow means that all Nic Jones' or Peter Bellamy's problems in life should be laid at the doorstep of the person/company who owns the masters and the rights to their material?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 01:06 PM

Another important quesition (1a perhaps) would be what exactly did Nic Jones sign away. Was it the royalties or the recordings. They might be separate issues.

Is there a website for David Bulmer and whatever record company he may have? I am just curious as to what he is selling currently and in what form. You can send me a private e-mail, it isn't necessary to give promotion to whatever site might be available.

One "topic" that was mentioned in these discussions - CD-R's. IF Bulmer was selling CD-R's without labeling it as such, that is wrong. It is also a very dumb and expensive way to make copies. Depending on quantities that are being produced, CD-R's can be more costly than an replicated CD. Here in the U.S. a number of record labels offer CD-R's for out of print recordings that can't be justified for a general release. The CD-R's are labeled as such and cost more for the consumer because of the labor involved. The consumer understands what they are purchasing. Smithsonian Folkways offers this service and I belive Folk-Legacy still does as well. For collectors, CD-R's represent a rare opportunity to own a recording that would otherwise be unavailable. Again, I don't know how Bulmer was marketing his CD-R's, if he was selling them, but if they were being sold in the manner some people have suggested he needs to sit down and do the math.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 02:29 PM

Dear Guest...

What about other artists promoting their albums? Tony Rose; Pete bellamy; Pete and Chris Coe; Tim Laycock; etc.?

Yours (wishing this could get sorted) Harry Basnett.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 02:34 PM

Incidentally, two years ago the late Tony Rose launched an album under his own steam called 'Bare Bones' which featured freshly recorded versions of some of the tracks off his 'missing' albums...as far as 'folk sales' are concerned I don't think that CD did too badly!

Harry Basnett.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 03:08 PM

John Prine and Arlo Guthrie are two notable artists who have also re-recorded their original albums. It is a shame that Nic isn't able to do the same.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: pavane
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:29 PM

No-one has ever claimed that what CM does makes sense!

By the way, Mick Tems (of Calennig) was also on the list, but after his stroke last year, I believe CM DID reissue some of his recordings. Inconsistent eh?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: RolyH
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 06:14 PM

With proper marketing there are a number of recordings,other than the Nic Jones albums,which would sell well by 'folk' standards.Bandoggs,Boys of the Lough,John Kirpatricks first album spring to mind.
Just think what could be done with a well packaged CD of 'Unto Brigg Fair'or'A Song for Every Season'
It's just a lot of fine music going to waste.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Colin
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 11:03 AM

As an uninvited guest wanting to make an informed choice on whether to go and buy this CD or not I've found this thread both helpful and infuriating. Like some of you I'm torn between desperately wanting to own this music and do the right thing by the artist.

However, I'd like to pick up on a point made earlier which pretty much said that we'd all tape the records off a friend anyway and what's the difference.

If you go to this site (http://www.beatmerchant.co.uk) this nice young gentleman will burn off a CD copy of all three Nic Jones old solo albums for £15 a time.

You may think this is the same as buying from CM because Nic doesn't benefit. But this guy doesn't profess to be doing anything more than 'taping' his own record collection for money. Do you think this is a way forward for us all?

By the way, I haven't bought either offer yet.

Colin


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 01:09 PM

Guest Colin.
A very interesting point you make. Hadn't heard of this guy before, but what he's doing is hardly surprising, and although I don't condone it, I don't condemn it either.
It's just an inevitable consequence of the world we now live in.
The Pandoras box that is the Web has been opened, and no amount of moaning will shut the lid!!
So, Buy, if you wish, and I hope you enjoy the music.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments.
Regards Ralphie
Who said that all property is theft....Karl Marx??


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 01:15 PM

Another artist affected, I believe, is 5 Hand Reel. Their 2 LP reissues on Black Crow give CM's address...Boy would I like to see those LPs reissued; both would just about fit on a CD.

By the way, GUEST, the argument that there would be no market for these albums is belied by what other labels are doing. Nic's topic album has been in print for years, so there's no reason to think his previous albums couldn't do as well. Topic's 4CD acoustic folk box, plus the great box sets on Free Reed, suggest that a well-packaged Nic Jones box set containing his earlier releases could survive in the marketplace, and Topic's Walter Pardon record suggests that the absence of Pardon's Leader material in the market actually opened a market opportunity for Topic. The Voice of the People series suggests that releases like Unto Brigg Fair could do fairly, as well.

I have no personal knowledge of Nic's original deal. What I have been given to understand by those who do was that he entered into a standard contract which gave the record company rights to the album and Nic the right to a royalty from sales. There is no question of "selling the rights to his songs" because few of the songs were written by Nic, and Nic has never seemed to begrudge the use of his arrangements to other singers; everyone from Martin Carthy to Mary Black has mined Nic's catalog for ideas. The question of why seems obvious: it's the standard way for records to get made and marketed. As for the solicitor question, it would strike me as unlikely, because the original contract would have been between Nic and Bill Leader, a personal friend.

It may be that the reason why the so-called "Jones Camp" has never answered these questions to GUEST's satisfaction is that Nic has suffered substantial memory loss from the years before his accident. It is possible that he dosn't even remember the details himself.

Everyone, too, should keep in mind that Nic rarely comments publicly on these matters himself. No excesses of hand-wringing pathos should be laid at his door, even if people like me who wish him the best might get that way sometimes!

Anyway, enough conjecture and innuendo! I think buying a CD burned from someone's record collection is essentially the same thing as buying a CDR from Bulmer, except that you don't support Bulmer's legal defense. Otherwise, you're still buying a bootleg and not supporting the artist. If you do buy, consider sending a small check to Mollie music as well as a "royalty." Then I think what you're doing would be ethical, if not strictly legal.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 01:58 PM

I agree there is a market for *some* previously unreleased material for many artists, dependent upon many variables (ie, condition of masters, popularity of the artists, current stage of nostalgia revival 1 & revival 2 consumers are in, etc).

As to whether releases can "survive" the current marketplace for reissues of old folk revival CDs, I think is also highly subjective, as is what constitutes economic viability for reissues. It is a damn fickle business, and once the initial PR surrounding a release dies down, so do sales, particular of artists who are deceased, or otherwise unable or unwilling to promote the CDs.

As has been said previously, the amount of money isn't very considerable for any of these reissues at the end of the day. Unless of course you can create a controversy to keep an artist/CD in the news, which is what I think has been the case with the Mollie Music releases. The amount of inspirational cripple stories that have been recently been written about Nic Jones are more than a sick parody at this point, IMO. As was the CD cover. I know--it was supposed to be funny.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 07:41 PM

Guest Nerd...
Thanks for your (as usual) insightful comments.
Well done....let's have a beer sometime.!!
As for the GUEST immediately above your posting....May I politely suggest that you should go forth and muliply?
As we are talking camps....why do I get this feeling that the Celtic Music Camp is inhabited by GUESTS??
At least in the Jones (et al) camp,(Whatever that means) we all identify ourselves!
Discuss

And if indeed, GUEST, you have the connections that I think you have, then, you should hang your head in shame.
For all other readers, It's just Ralphie going off on one...
Surprised??
Regards Ralphie xx
Why do I get the feeling that 1, Not only have I've been flamed, but also 2, that time is running out for Celtic Music?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 08:20 PM

Oh God I Tried.....I really did try...Mea Culpa...
GUEST....I've just read your incredibly unpleasant remarks again.
What do you really mean by the phrase " Inspirational cripple stories?"
Do you mean that all of my hard work is a devious way to deprive Dave Bulmer of a lot of Wonga?? to the greater glory of the magnificent Nic Jones?? I don't think so!!
The only reason that a lot of people gave freely of their time and energy to produce the 2 retrospective NJ albums was because Mr Bulmer has consistently refused many, many, many, many (How many "Manys" do you want?????) artists,(apart from Nic) the rights to their own work, even after offers of deals have been made. Jesus...Poor old Tony Rose had to go to the lengths of re recording his own songs...And Lal Waterson never had the chance....
(Bright Phoebus... CD or CDR Discuss) Guest...(and I have no way of Knowing who you really are...)
Get in touch with me.....It's pretty obvious how....I've offered you the option before, and you didn't take it up...
Confidentiality assured...If not, and you keep posting vitriol...expect a very nasty response.
Game Over, Gloves off....
Ralph


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: pavane
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:19 PM

Have we got an easy way to distinguish between CD and CDR? I understand it is not always obvious to the eye.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 02:37 AM

Pav.
Not a definitive response, but commercial CDs are stamped (a bit like LPs) and CD-Rs are produced by a pseudo photographic method.....Thus CDs are Silver, and I've seen CD-Rs coloured Green, Blue, Gold etc.
An easy way to prove what you've got, is to leave said disc in bright sunshine for a day or so.....!!If it doesn't play anymore, then it is - was (!) a CD-R!!
Regards
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: treewind
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 05:04 AM

Ron Olesko - the reason why Bulmer is selling CDR's is because if you have pressed CD's made in more than small test quantities the MCPS has to be notified. Conversely, if you make CDRs, you are accountable to nobody for the numbers produced. Hence you are not accountable for royalty payments. Celtic music has no MCPS* licence. You may draw your own conclusions.

I would guess that when that rule was made, nobody in their right mind would try to sell music on CDR. Blanks were expensive, the recording process was slow, CD recorders were expensive and the whole process was error prone. Now I can buy a box of 10 CDRs for a fiver and burn an hour of music in less that three minutes each...

Anahata

(*MCPS - Mechanical Copyright Protection Society - the UK authority for licensing the production and copying of recorded music)


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 04:15 PM

Ralphie, I was thinking more of Non-Destructive Testing methods!


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: RolyH
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM

Bob Davenport
Sid Kipper
Leon Rosselson
Martin Simpson
Swan Arcade
Dave and Toni Arthue
Martyn Wyndham Read
The Rakes
Cyril Tawney

And on and on and on...............


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 08:55 PM

Yes, and some of them can afford to pay a solicitor to sue the ass off Celtic Music & Bulmer. So why hasn't anyone got round to doing that do you suppose?

Answer: Because they can't make a case?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 10:14 PM

Don't suppose they want to throw good money after bad. Even if they succeed in their action, it can be VERY difficult to obtain any cash. And if they lose, the bills can be substantial.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 11:46 PM

Such actions have to be taken against the company that owns the rights, and cannot be taken against the individual directors of that company. Even if you win, all that will happen is that the company concerned will be liquidated with (on paper) no realisable assets, and another company, miraculously enough, will appear; with the same directors, and owning the same assets that belonged to the company against which you have a valid, but no longer enforceable, judgement. This kind of scam is perfectly legal under UK law (US law, too, I believe); if it happens regularly, the Department of Trade and Industry may investigate, but it is unlikely that they will take any action. Even if they do, the very worst that's likely to happen is that one or more of the directors may be disqualified from holding company directorships for a while. In such cases, they usually just transfer the companies to their wives, and continue to run them uninterrupted.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 10:17 AM

And a gong to Malcolm for stating the only point the matters here: does Celtic Music actually own the rights? Dave Bulmer, we know, has possession of the masters to the Leader catalogue. But when he bought them, did the rights come with them?

Presumably, there are people who know the definitive answer to that question. Very few, if any of us here, are among those who do have the definitive answer to that question. Rather, it is much more entertaining to engage in rumour mongering about it, so that is what we see happening here. A man everyone finds it very easy to hate, is routinely painted the villain, and a man everyone finds it easy to empathise with is routinely painted as a saint.

No legal issue in the music business is ever that simple though, is it? And Celtic Music, dastardly though Bulmer may be, must be doing something right, because it is still doing business under the name, and Bulmer hasn't stolen out of town in middle of the night. Yet.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey, Germany.
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:55 AM

In answer to guest, some of us can make a very strong case and are in the process of doing just that.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: treewind
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 07:49 AM

Guest - There is no mysterious sectret about it - it's well known that Celtic Music does own both legal rights and master tapes, which (at least in the controversial cases we're discussing here) were bought from Bill Leader when the latter's record company went bust.

There are two issues here:

  • The moral one of refusing to release recordings for which there is some demand and which would benefit the recording artists by paying them some royalties. For people like Pete Coe who is pushing plenty of stuff out under his own label it doesn't matter too much: he's making a living and we can buy his music. For Nic Jones, it's far worse because of his inability to record and release new material. He makes no money and we don't get to hear his music. Legal, maybe, but still outrageous.
  • The legal cases where breach of contract can be oved.
It seems that there is at least one strong legal case if Pat Cooksey has got his evidence right.

As for the CDR releases, it's all rather on the edge. With CDR numbers being untraceable, it's not easy to prove anything sufficiently convincingly to make a case. All you can sue for is provable financial losses, and as has been discussed above, the figures for each individual concerned may not be very much, while the legal costs of proof are high.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 07:58 AM

I bought 'Ballads and Songs' on Saturday. It's wonderful music.

I do resent the fact that some people seem to think that I'm 'evil' for doing so.

Tim


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 09:08 AM

Anahata says:

"it's well known that Celtic Music does own both legal rights and master tapes"

Well known urban myths do not a legal case make. No one that I have seen has ever offered anything close to incontrovertible proof (copies of the contracts, bills of sale, etc.) of the sale of the Leader catalogue, masters, and rights to Celtic Music.

That supposedly "well known" fact, as Anahata puts it, is in fact a "widely believed presumption". No proof.

Pat Cooksey--I really do wish you the very best with your case. It would be good if someone COULD prove something against Celtic Music, so people could get some sort of feeling of resolution about this subject, and move on, just as life has and will for all the parties involved.

IMO, this jihad is now, and always has been a case of Brit begrudgery.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: treewind
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:41 PM

Ferchrisssake....
I've never met the president of the USA, but I believe he exists.....is he an urban myth?

I've sat in Pete Coe's house while he told me what happened with Banddoggs, Leader and Bulmer. Ralphie has told me more than he's ever going to post to this and other threads.

Perhaps none of it's true and they've all been hypnotized by aliens from outer space.

Conspiracy theories can sometimes go too far.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: RolyH
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 04:44 PM

Cilla Fisher
Tom Gilfellon>br> Jimmy Power
Pisces(Richard Digance)
Bill Caddick
Lea Nicholson
Jimmy Power
Jon Raven


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: graham_t
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 08:00 AM

According to the BBCi folk message board CM have told the BBC that Ballads and Songs is indeed a CDR.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: pavane
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 10:07 PM

What a surprise! Have they also told them whether they are paying royalties?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 01:29 AM

Guest, Tim

you're not evil for buying the CDR. I think we all understand your motives for doing so and as folkies we absolutely sympathize. Might I suggest again a small check to Nic for the royalties he won't get--if you can afford it, at least? You could send it to Mollie Music. Granted it's more a symbolic act than anything else, but hey...symbolism is important too!


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:04 PM

Back from My hols now.....feeling much better, and still taking the tablets!
Guest Tim. Glad you like Ballads and Songs. I have no problem with that. and, don't ever feel obligated to pay any more. You brought the disc in good faith, and that's that.
Graham T..... Interesting....Will have a look at the F on 2 site.
Anahata.....Sshhhhhh!!
Pat Cooksey.....Onward and upward....Good Luck
Pavane.....you should get out more !!!
And Finally GUEST (Jihad)...Thats how I know you...
Still waiting for a contact from you..My E address is readily available on this site....but, your silence is deafening...Explain??
Best wishes and a happy Summer to you all
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:53 AM

Out of interest GUEST Tim.....
Where exactly did you buy "Ballads and Songs" ? I can't find it anywhere...And I'd love to see a copy.
Have looked at the Beeb website. and yes!! Apparently CM have admitted that the release is a CDR....So, Tim....Don't leave your copy lying around in the sunshine. If I were you, I'd do a copy of it onto minidisc, cassette, whatever, PDQ !!
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey, Germany.
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 06:16 AM

RALPHIE.

Yesterday I was looking through the folk c.d.'s in Muller in Nuremberg, a major German music store, next to the large Irish selection is a smaller one featuring English folk music, in this section is one of Bulmers re-issues BRIGHT PHOEBUS Leader 2000. Stuck in the back is a printed card Music by Mail P.O. Box 182 Harrogate England.

If Bulmer has products in Muller he must have a distributor here in Germany and presumably Nic Jones's re-release will also be available here. The price of BRIGHT PHOEBUS by the way is 35 EURO, which is very expensive.

Best wishes, Pat.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:48 PM

Someone mentioned earlier that Celtic Music has released the Calennig material...was this also on CDR?

Cheers.............Harry Basnett.

PS........nice to have you back, Ralphie.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: pavane
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 06:09 AM

(Ralphie: Just back from two days at the Royal Welsh Show, watching our team ride. Don't suppose that counts though!)

It was me that mentioned Calennig, but I only got the information from a posting here, maybe on a thread on Mick Tems?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 07:39 AM

I thought Bulmer allowed Mick Tems family to re-release the material, rather than released it themselves?

There is so much garbage in defence of CM here that it's clear some guests are being deliberately dishonest - and, as I have suggested before, they are almost certainly directly connected to CM or to a certain paranoid individual who has an intense personal dislike of much of the English folk world.

As for 'signing away' rights - remember, a contract MAY be made verbally - I have a nasty suspicion that in many cases there is no trace of the claimed agreements. Where Bulmer is denying artists income which is legitimately theirs is by refusing to register his recordings with MCPS, denying the artists royalties.

Oh, and to remaster and re-release on CD is a very expensive business (as Ralphie can attest) - to do a CM-CDROM copy from an indifferent master is EXTREMELY cheap. Those who want to hear Nic Jones can and should buy the two Mollie Music recordings (and the early June Tabor and Silly Sisters albums if you just want his instrumental efforts).

Of course in a free world anyone is also free to support the work of the unscrupulous (ok, I can't spell that) and imoral Dave Bulmer - if that's the values they want to live by then that is their choice; no-one has ever denied that.

George (Hawes), as guest.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,rogthedodge
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:15 AM

'Someone I know' had a different solution to the problem of acquiring the 4 CM albums.
'He' ripped them off the 'net and then sent Nic £5 for each one.
'He' knows he's done something that's probably wrong in law but feels he's done right morally.

'He' also bought the new albums & PE as 'he' felt that the money would, in part, end up where it was deserved.

Just a thought

Roger

PS 'he' also wonders why Ralphie never replied to the emails


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pretty dress
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 01:59 PM

I recently bought a set of discs and a signed songbook of Nic from Fish Records, The guy I spoke to when I ordered said they got all their discs and books direct from Nic and Julia and didn't touch the Bulmer reissues. Anyway the CDs and signed book arrived safe and sound and are excellent, here's an attempt at a blue clicky! Nic Jones discs and book


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pbc
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:24 AM

Does anyone know if there's any more unreleased material from Nic?

The Mollie Music release In Search of Nic Jones is the best of the bunch, and certainly better than last years' release on Topic, but it'd be great if there were more come. Does anyone know?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:34 AM

Unearthed (2001) also available from Mollie is a doubl CD of club, concert and studio recordings and is the follow-up to In Search Of.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:12 PM

Hi Guest pbc.
I think its probably unlikely that there is much left in the NJ archive.
Between Mollie Music, and Topic records have just about emptied the cupboard.
But, 4 CDs of stuff that would otherwise never seen the light of day isn't bad!
And Nic's got a new knee out of it. Hurrah!
Shame we can't access the original albums
Ralph


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: 8_Pints
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:00 AM

Thanks "Pretty Dress" for the link to Fish records.

Our CD's arrived this morning and they are playing as I type.

Never realised that Dave Moran had written the tunes of so many songs that I thought were traditional.

Bob vG


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