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Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???

DigiTrad:
DIRTY OLD TOWN


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In Mudcat MIDIs:
Dirty Old Town


MGM·Lion 28 Mar 13 - 07:26 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Mar 13 - 08:43 AM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 09:06 AM
Doug Chadwick 28 Mar 13 - 09:16 AM
Doug Chadwick 28 Mar 13 - 09:31 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Mar 13 - 09:41 AM
Weasel 28 Mar 13 - 12:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM
ollaimh 28 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM
GUEST,Polly 21 Oct 18 - 08:13 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Oct 18 - 09:29 PM
meself 21 Oct 18 - 09:32 PM
Joe_F 21 Oct 18 - 10:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 18 - 03:38 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 18 - 06:43 AM
GUEST,Polly 22 Oct 18 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,Polly 22 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM
FreddyHeadey 20 Mar 19 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 20 Mar 19 - 02:31 PM
Vincent Jones 15 Oct 19 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 15 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Ian 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM
Mrrzy 15 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:26 AM

TYFYI [= Thank you for your inquiry], Doug Chadwick
.,,.

MYOB meanwhile, …………………………………………: it is, FYmuch•neededO,
.,,.
Standard abbrevs which I am sure could be found by googling if at a loss

MYOB = Mind your own business

FYO = For your information

as I rendered this above = For your much-needed information.

Hope all now clear

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM

Sorry ~~ acknowledge a mistake [NOT a 'typo'] in above and the post it refs to. Can't imagine why I put FYO, when it should have been FYI = For your information.

Profound apologies* for culpable and erroneous carelessness.

~M~

*How about some of the same from u-no-hoo for his repeated 'McColl'? In my dreams, I much fear! Actually, on recollection I think he did offer such; but in tones of profound irony, IIRC [= If I remember correctly!] Most of these abbreviations can be found on Mudcat html, I think, can't they?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:43 AM

http://www.webopedia.com/quick_ref/textmessageabbreviations.asp#M

is a useful online guide to such standard web abbreviations. Many, such as lol ['laugh out loud' or 'lots of love'], btw ['by the way'], 2MI ['too much information'] have got out and become mainstream, so you will find journos using them in features and expecting to be understood. They can, iirc ['if I remember correctly'] and SFAICS ['so far as I can see'] be typed in upper or lower case.

HTH ['hope this helps']

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:06 AM

@janemick

I guess the ultimate comment on the songs origins are here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wj7xZf8xm8

Tone


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:16 AM

Standard abbrevs which I am sure could be found by googling if at a loss

Yes, I could look them up on Google – but why should I have to. It should be on the part of the writer, not the reader, to make communication clear and unambiguous.

DC


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:31 AM

"A typographical error (often shortened to typo) …………... The term includes errors due to mechanical failure or slips of the hand or finger…"

… acknowledge a mistake [NOT a 'typo'] in above and the post it refs to. Can't imagine why I put FYO, when it should have been FYI …



As 'O' is next to 'I' on a qwerty keyboard, a slip of the finger is easily done so it probably was a 'typo'.


DC


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:41 AM

I take your point, Doug. But these are recognised, standard abbreviations, generally accepted for online discourse; so I don't think it unreasonable to expect the meaning to be known clearly to anyone using an online forum I would suggest that they are, once learnt, convenient communication-enhancers. All language is conventional, after all. As well object to the use of a word you might not know, rather than taking the obvious recourse of consulting a dictionary so that you will recognise it next time.

Thank you for affording me that 'typo' get-out!

LoL

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Weasel
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 12:28 PM

I was playing in Salford Cathedral this morning.   The Bishop gave the congregation directions to the refreshments - "Past the bookies' and turn left at the abandoned car opposite the burnt out pub."

Ah, Salford!


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM

He sent you the wrong way! From the cathedral the best chippy is next to the tattoo parlour and charity shop...

:D


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: ollaimh
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM

maybe it was origionally dirty old clown, and really about a certain folk musician


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 08:13 PM

This is amazing, a thread that was started in 2002! I think Clinton did a huge favour to fans of this song and its writer. It's given many people the opportunity to chew the fat and relive their youths, to talk about folk songs, music, plays and history.
Long live the art of discussion and folk music everywhere??
After 3 years ( last posting 2013) I wonder if anyone is still listening?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 09:29 PM

enjoyed hearing all those voices Mike GM and Scrump.

Jim as always in fine irascible form.

its almost a work of art really.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: meself
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 09:32 PM

Somehow never saw this thread before now ....

And to go back to its origin: the person that started it lived, and perhaps still does live, in Windsor, Ontario - perhaps he didn't spend his formative years there, and perhaps he lived out in the (rich) suburbs, but the idea of anyone in Windsor not getting this song is bewildering to me. I grew up there, about three blocks from the Chrysler plant, and even though we didn't have canals and crofts, when I first heard Dirty Old Town, I knew immediately what it was all about, and the images it evoked were from my own memory. What I find particularly ironic, is that the pub this person apparently played in regularly - the Kildare House - was right across the street from a foundry that was a vision of hell, in my younger days. We had to pass it walking to and from high school - behind a rusted chain-link fence, there were partial
walls and roofs of old sheet metal, big industrial ovens and boilers; heat, grit and smoke drifted out, and we could see dark, scowling men working, their sweaty bodies gleaming from the flames around them. Once in a while, a passing student would receive a burn from an airborne cinder. Like the warnings of some fire-and-brimstone preacher, it seemed to be there as a threat of what awaited if we didn't stay in school ....

All of which is to say, I suppose, that the OP's perception of Dirty Old Town says much more about him than about it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 10:01 PM

Thank you for reviving this thread, which I had not been aware of. The proportion of good manners in it is astonishing.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 03:38 AM

I enjoyed re-reading it too. It was like meeting an old friend :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 06:43 AM

I've just been listening to (and very much enjoying) the Alan Lomax recordings - now fully accessible on line)
Most interesting for me personally were the 1950s recordings of Ewan (and occasionally his first wife, Joan Littlewood and his mother, Betsy)
THey are full of information on Ewan when he was more of a 'Salford Lad' than he was later and they certainly give the lie to many of the myths that have sprung up about him
Lomax's contribution to our understanding of Irish and Scots is also well worth a listen
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 07:26 AM

Goodness me. People are still listening :)
I can't help thinking that Clinton knew exactly what he was doing. He picked up a stick and prodded a sleeping dragon. It may have produced a bit of fire and brimstone but a lot of interesting reminiscences too.
Ewan MacColl remains a great hero of mine and Dirty OT a favourite despite it being (so I'm reliably informed) sung at Man. U games. I still like to sing "croft" and "Salford Wind".
I love hearing everyone's take on the folk scene back then and about the men and women who wrote and sang these lovely songs. Out of interest does anyone else share my love of Sirley Collins' version of "Foggy foggy dew"?
Pints all round,
Polly


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM

Sorry make that Shirley Collins.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:12 PM

"Just what folk song does Ewan McColl's "Dirty Old Town" sound like?"
Ewan adapted the tune from Isla Cameron's 'Waters of Tyne' - the two were working together on the play the song was written for when it was composed
MacColl's technique was to choose a tune and spend hours humming it through, making changes until he was satisfied with it.

Jim Carroll. thread.cfm?threadid=165660&page=19#3983129


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:31 PM

Just scanned through some of the early posts here.

I suppose many are comparing a complete song with music that forms part of a narrative in a larger experience.

It was MacColl’s lyrics in theatre workshop productions such as Landscape with Chimneys (1949) that made him of interest to Charles Parker when he wanted songs to carry on the narrative in interviews, capturing the themes. Hence the BBC Radio Ballads.

How do you tell a long term folkie from a Johnny Come Lately getting words off the Internet?

The Oirish lyrics that come up in Internet searches mix the middle verses around as per Pogues.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 08:21 AM

Heyup, this is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read, and there are some pretty good 'uns on Mudcat's pages. I was just doing a search for 'Salford' as I'm still recovering from being at Salford's solid (but sadly unsuccessful) performance in the rugby league Grand Final. But I ended up reading nearly 18 years of thread.

So now I'm here there's few things I'd like to add:

'Dirty Old Town' gets played at Salford's home matches. A few years ago we'd hear a great version by The Dirges, not at all folky but definitely the sort of tune to get you in the mood for rugby league. You ought to give that one a listen, if you're interested.

Jonathan Kelly has a song called 'Rainy Town', which unsurprisingly made me think it's about Manchester, but as he's a Drogheda lad I think it probably isn't. Nevertheless, I tried writing an extra verse about Manchester after that little tit blew himself up at the Ariane Grande concert (I won't inflict it on you, I'm no MacColl-Miller/Kelly- Ledingham/Dylan-Zimmerman), so I can hardly object to anyone thinking of 'Dirty Old Town' as being about their town. Similarly with the dark satanic mills of 'Jerusalem': I thought these may be about factories in the north of England, but I understand that Blake was thinking of the mills of Shepton Mallet.

My missus, a theatre academic, was quite possibly the last person to whom Joan Littlewood gave an interview; Littlewood expressed a great fondness for her time in Salford (during which she was married to MacColl).

In Morlaix I heard a Breton shanty whose tune was very close to Dirty Old Town - maybe that's why it's popular in Brittany. Wish I could remember its name.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM

In Morlaix I heard a Breton shanty whose tune was very close to Dirty Old Town - maybe that's why it's popular in Brittany. Wish I could remember its name.

Come to think of it, the Breton historical ballad "An Alarc'h" (The Swan) does use a similar tune, at least similar in overall contour.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM

Jack, having heard An Alarc'h on a regular basis as a Bretton dance tune I think it is more akin to the scots song Twa Corbies.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM

This and Old Triangle, oh and the cobblrr, were the only Clancy Brothers songs eorth getting up off the couch to skip on vinyl.

There is great imagery in this song but it's ugly, urban imagery. Not images I enjoy. I like pretty.


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