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Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112

GUEST,Sid Yiddish 11 May 02 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,mg 11 May 02 - 12:37 PM
Haruo 11 May 02 - 12:46 PM
CarolC 11 May 02 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Sara 11 May 02 - 01:05 PM
DougR 11 May 02 - 03:51 PM
Deda 11 May 02 - 04:43 PM
Ebbie 11 May 02 - 05:23 PM
Troll 11 May 02 - 06:05 PM
CarolC 11 May 02 - 06:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 May 02 - 07:56 PM
CarolC 11 May 02 - 10:09 PM
Troll 11 May 02 - 11:18 PM
CarolC 11 May 02 - 11:29 PM
Troll 12 May 02 - 12:10 AM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 12:21 AM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 12:53 AM
Haruo 12 May 02 - 03:41 AM
paddymac 12 May 02 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,mg 12 May 02 - 12:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 May 02 - 01:34 PM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 02:43 PM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 02:43 PM
Deda 12 May 02 - 06:15 PM
Deda 12 May 02 - 06:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 May 02 - 07:24 PM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 08:06 PM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 08:08 PM
Deda 12 May 02 - 09:19 PM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 10:08 PM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 10:09 PM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 11:07 PM
Troll 12 May 02 - 11:07 PM
CarolC 12 May 02 - 11:13 PM
Wilfried Schaum 13 May 02 - 03:06 AM
Troll 13 May 02 - 03:19 AM
CarolC 13 May 02 - 03:29 AM
Haruo 13 May 02 - 03:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 May 02 - 05:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 May 02 - 06:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 May 02 - 06:10 AM
CarolC 13 May 02 - 07:41 AM
CarolC 13 May 02 - 07:52 AM
CarolC 13 May 02 - 07:55 AM
Troll 13 May 02 - 08:37 AM
Troll 13 May 02 - 09:07 AM
CarolC 13 May 02 - 09:11 AM
CarolC 13 May 02 - 09:23 AM
Troll 13 May 02 - 10:15 AM
CarolC 13 May 02 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,mg 13 May 02 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Native 13 May 02 - 04:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 May 02 - 08:29 PM
Troll 13 May 02 - 10:06 PM
CarolC 13 May 02 - 10:45 PM
CarolC 13 May 02 - 11:09 PM
Troll 14 May 02 - 12:13 AM
CarolC 14 May 02 - 12:41 AM
Lepus Rex 14 May 02 - 01:45 AM
Haruo 14 May 02 - 01:55 AM
GUEST,Teddy H. 14 May 02 - 01:50 PM
SharonA 14 May 02 - 02:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 May 02 - 02:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 May 02 - 02:25 PM
CarolC 15 May 02 - 06:55 PM
Troll 15 May 02 - 11:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 02 - 06:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 02 - 10:37 AM
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Subject: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: GUEST,Sid Yiddish
Date: 11 May 02 - 10:45 AM

This thread continues Part 111.

We await countless more links from CaroleC on how evil the Israelis are and how the Palestinians terrorists are forced into murdering innocent Israeli babies and old people by the evil Israeli government.

We also await the morally superior postings of McGrath of Harlow.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 May 02 - 12:37 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Haruo
Date: 11 May 02 - 12:46 PM

I went to the Post Office yesterday (a Japanese professor had Express-Mailed me, gratis, a three-volume Japanese edition of Moby-Dick, in the Abe translation) and somebody had a table set up out front announcing I was wrong "If You Think Osama Is Responsible For Terror..." and "Stop Senator Lieberman". I didn't stop to see who they were, but I'd educatedly guess Laroucheites. Anybody here know anything about Senator Lieberman (Democrat from Connecticut, moral chider of Clinton) being a terrorist or being behind terrorism. Doesn't surprise me that the Larouchies would say so. Their theories about the involvement of Kissinger and the Queen in the heroin trade make very little surprising.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 02 - 01:00 PM

Here's how the numbers of dead children breaks down for the period between 29 Sept. 2000 and 7 May 2002...

Palestinian children 17 and under -

212 killed by Israeli security forces:

42 age 17
34 age 16
38 age 15
32 age 14
23 age 13
9 age 12
7 age 11
8 age 10
4 age 9
5 age 8
2 age 7
1 age 6
1 age 5
2 age 4
2 age 3
1 age 1
1 age 4 months

Killed by Israeli civilians

1 age 2 months

53 Israeli children killed by Palestinians:

8 age 17
10 age 16
10 age 15
9 age 14
2 age 13
1 age 12
1 age 11
1 age 10
1 age 8
1 age 7
1 age 5
1 age 4
1 age 3
1 age 1
1 age 10 month
1 age 9 month
1 age 7 month
1 age 5 month

That certainly looks to me like more than enough on both sides.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Al_Aqsa_Fatalities.asp


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: GUEST,Sara
Date: 11 May 02 - 01:05 PM

If you want to know why Bush is allowing Sharon free reins to crush the Palestinains, look to the coming election in Florida. According to Barry Horowitz, an highly placed American zionist lobbyist, there is a deal in effect that the Jews in Florida will vote for Governor Jeb Bush en masse on the condition that his brother keeps up American support for Israel and keeps pressure on Arafat. Any deviation of American policy and the Jewish vote goes to Janet Reno.

The Jewish lobby is controlling American foreign policy by electoral blackmail of the Bush family.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 02 - 03:51 PM

Pure B.S., Guest Sara. You got facts to back up that argument?

Carol C: too many from both sides.

Liland: you probably are aware that Sen. Lieberman was Al Gore's running mate during the last presidential election. He is Jewish, and a strong supporter of Israel. Always has been. I think he is a pretty good guy myself.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Deda
Date: 11 May 02 - 04:43 PM

Having been married into an orthodox Jewish family for 15 years (long since divorced), and having a Jewish daughter and grandson and a (non Jewish) niece and a slew of former in-laws living in Israel, and having visited Israel myself a few years ago, I am completely confident that any rumor of a widespread conspiracy among a large number of Jews is silly at best, and more likely something a lot darker than silly. Jewish Israelis told me that as a rule, "three Jews, five opinions." In other words, you can't easily get two Jews to agree on anything, let alone getting "all the Jews in Florida" to committ to some political blackmail. That's just conspiracy theory nonsense. Jews don't just wake up in the morning and receive their instruction telegrams on what to think that day from Jewry central, GuestSara. Anymore than all New Yorkers or all Catholics or all Presbyterians or all Swedes do-- none of us think or vote in unison.

I'm curious as to whether anyone else here has immediate family living in the Middle east, or has actually been there.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 02 - 05:23 PM

I don't have any family living there on either side- I can't even imagine the heartbreak. Of either side.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 11 May 02 - 06:05 PM

Thank you Deda. The old "International Zionist (Jewish) Conspiracy" IS one of the more enduring. It ranks right up there with the "Masonic Conspiracy", The "Illuminatus", and the "Gnomes of Zurich."
I think that the conspiracy buffs need to get together and pick one and stick with it.
The only people eniltled to use the singular "we" are royalty, editors, and those with tapeworm.
Or do you presume to speak for the masses?
If so, please be informed that you do not speak for me. I can anticipate on my own and need neither aid or direction.
Mazel tov und Gut Shabes.

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 02 - 06:53 PM

Deda, we've heard here in the forum from a couple of Israeli Jews and Jewish people with family in Israel. But as far as I know, we haven't heard from any Christians or Muslims who live in or have family in the middle east.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 02 - 07:56 PM

No Palestinians posting to the site - but to remind us they have faces and voices - and in this case an extraordinarily beautiful singing voice - here is a link I gave in the Peace III thread to Kamilya Jubrin,. And here is a link to one of the songs on the site (and there's more where that came from.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 02 - 10:09 PM

Just a minute ago, I was watching a piece on CNN news about a demonstration taking place in Israel in which tens of thousands of Israelis are demanding that the government pull out of the occupied territories for the sake of Israel.

And I'm just now watching Shimon Peres saying that the Palestinians should have an independent state as soon as possible, and that it was perhaps a mistake that a provision for this was not included in the Oslo agreement.

I think I'm going to cry with joy. I hope this keeps up.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:18 PM

Carol, I think that almost all of the parties involved feel that the Palestinians should have their own state. The problem lies in the boundaries of the said state.
For instance, as long as BOTH sides insist that THEY and no one else should control Jerusalem, there will be problems.
Still...

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:29 PM

My understanding is that the Palestinians want the section of east Jerusalem that they already occupy. I don't believe that they want any more than that.

You could be right about the Israeli government, but I've never heard it stated as clearly and as unequivocally as what I just heard from Shimon Peres.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 12 May 02 - 12:10 AM

The major sticking point has always been the Temple Mount which is the site of the El Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock complex AND the Western (Wailing) Wall which is supposedly the last remainding bit of Solomans Temple. The Dome covers the third holiest place in Islam, the Rock from which Mohammad ascended to heaven and the Wall is the holiest spot to the Jews.
Both these places are bones of contention.

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 12:21 AM

Well, maybe they will find a way to share. Shall we both put our energies into hoping for the best possible outcome for everybody?


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 12:53 AM

Hoo, boy, troll. You're not kidding. I did a google search on "Temple Mount" "El Aqsa Mosque" "Dome of the Rock" " Western Wall" "Solomans Temple", and this came up...

http://www.anglicanjournal.com/126/02/world04.html


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Haruo
Date: 12 May 02 - 03:41 AM

Here's an intriguing oddball Jewish webpage on the Temple Mount: http://www.templemountfaithful.org/Newsletters/2001/5761-11.htm. Bear in mind, when reading the part about prayer/pilgrimages to Jerusalem under Abd el-Malik, that Muhammad himself at first ordered Muslims to pray towards Jerusalem; only later did he change the orientation of prayer to the Kaaba. As the Canadian Anglican page noted, many evangelical/fundamentalist Protestant Christians are closely allied with Jews of the mindset exemplified by templemountfaithful.org. These are the people who get all excited everytime a reddish calf is born.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: paddymac
Date: 12 May 02 - 04:39 AM

Any lobbyist who advanced a notion like Sara's post would be laughed right out of the office of most any politician. But, there are some unique situations in Florida that could give rise to such ideas. In Palm Beach County, there is a retirement place Called "Century Village" which is overwhelmingly Jewish in population: mostly folks who have retired there from the northeast. The "Village" has something like 10,000 registered voters and is very well organized in the political sense and can be a significant voting bloc, especially as to "local" elections. The activists there are often refered to as "the condo commandos." However, they usually vote for the Democrats, not the Republicans. There are many other similar retirement communities if Florida, some voting "D" and some voting "R", but I think "Century" remains the largest. It is important to remember that their individual votes have the same value as those of any other voter. The reason such places seem more important in the electoral sens is that they often are more earnestly courted by candidates simply because of efficiency.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 May 02 - 12:33 PM

Am I right in understanding that certain Christian groups welcome the idea of Armegeddon etc. so that Christ will return? Wouldn't that be a sin to hope for a terrible war and all the suffering that would be involved? Anyone clarify this?

And who are the terrorists? Some of the journalists spreading hate, like this one...http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire050902.asp It is just foul.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 02 - 01:34 PM

The irony is that Mohammed always said that the religion he was preaching was the same religion as Abraham and Moses, a sort of reformed Judaism, but open to people of all kinds.

Here from today's Observer is an article (by a Jew, Nick Cohn) about a novel, "The Rock" (by a Muslim Arab, Kanan Makiya) the central action of which is "the Dome on the Rock being built as the third temple to overawe the Christian churches and announce Islam as a continuation of Judaism."

The action taking place in the 7th century (AD that is). The hero is historical figure, "Ka'b al-Ahbara, a Yemenite Jew who advised Umar, the caliph who conquered Jerusalem in 635. Early Islamic sources treat him as a wise man. That he was castigated in the twentieth century as the 'first Zionist' by Islamic fundamentalists proved, yet again, that there is nothing quite as modern as a traditionalist."


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 02:43 PM

It's pretty sick, mg. Looks like racism towards Arabs is still seen as being not only acceptable, but expected in many places. I wonder how much heat he would be taking right now if he had written something like that about some other ethnic or religious group instead of Arabs.

Throughout history, those are exactly the sorts of arguments that have been used against blacks, the Irish, Jews, Gypsies, and other people in order to justify the reprehensible things that were being done to them, and as an excuse to continue doing them.

To answer your question, yes, there are some Christian and Jewish groups who are using the middle east to try to speed up the process of their predictions coming true. In the case of some Christians, it's armageddon and the second coming, and with some Jewish groups, it's to speed up the arrival of the Messia.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 02:43 PM

Oops. That should have been 'Messiah'.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Deda
Date: 12 May 02 - 06:15 PM

While the recent rally near or in Tel Aviv of Israelis calling on Sharon to make peace with the Palestinians seems like a hopeful sign, my daughter (who lives near Modi'im, a town between J'salem and Tel Aviv) said today [mother's day call] that there was a similar rally within the last week or so in Jerusalem of thousands of Israelis who reject the idea of "giving away" or "trading" land for peace. She said that this would probably never be covered by the American press because it is so un-PC. One saying, sort of like the "3 Jews 5 opinions", is that "2/3ds of Israelis are in favor of anything".

My feeling is this, and I hope I'll be forgiven: I think there has to be a two-state solution, I think the settlements have to be dismantled and the west bank returned to the Palestinians. And I don't know if Israel will ever be safe from Palestinian and/or Arab terror, no matter what concessions it makes. Certainly it won't be safe until the Arab world, as led by the Saudi Wahabees, stops teaching virulent anti-semitism to every young new generation from pre-school on. Israel has made reforms in what it teaches about the history of the region, but travesties like "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a long-discredited wellspring of hatred, is still given away and sold in the gift stores of fancy hotels in the Arab world.

Palestinians deserve better than they've ever gotten, not from Israel but from their own leadership. They deserve free speech, free press, strong representative government, independent judiciary, an effect justice system, a good economy, a strong education system. That is where their hope will come from, not from Israel. Their corrupt, autocratic leadership distracts the Palestinian people from their (the gov't's) own failures and blames all their (the Palestinians people's) wretched unhappiness on the Jews -- an easy and completely false target. The Israelis DO have a stronger economy, and a free press, and an independent judiciary, and free elections, and strong schools and universities, but that has not caused the misery of the Palestinians. Even granting that Israel should treat them as equals, should have been better neighbors all along, Israel has never had an adequate Palestinian government structure with whom to work and negotiate, and still doesn't.

Il faut cultiver son jardin -- one must cultivate one's own garden. The Palestinians need leaders who want to lead, not just to blame.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Deda
Date: 12 May 02 - 06:22 PM

PS -- Christians who want the temple to be re-built in order to hasten Armageddon and the second coming are not, in their view, fomenting non-Christian violence against others. They believe that the Bible is full of prophecies of what WILL happen, and Armageddon is a necessary future evil, determined by God, not a violation of the golden rule. They want Jesus to come back, they want the prophecies about the second coming to be fulfilled, and if they can contribute to what they think the Bible says that entails, they're more than happy to do so. Even to the point of trying to breed an all-red calf and send the semen that will produce such a calf to Israeli farmers so that a red calf can be born in Israel. It's a complicated mythology, hard to follow, in my opinion -- but the political allegiance between hard-right Zionists and hard-right Christian fundamentalists is very real.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 02 - 07:24 PM

I'd have thought that setting out artificially to make a prophecy come true like that would count as blasphemy and presumption. Any authentic True Believer would see it as the work of Satan.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 08:06 PM

Deda, I have never heard of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". I'll take the word of those who are more informed than me that they are false.

However, to place the blame for discord in the region on the Arabs is no less a well-spring of hatred. Arabs and Jews were living in peace in Palestine until the early part of the 20th century, when the Zionist movement from Europe went to the region and displaced large numbers of the people who were already living there, and then sought to establish political rule. That's when things got bad and people started hating each other.

I use as one source of my information the writing of one of the artichects of Zionism in Israel, Vladimir Jabotinsky, and in particular his piece "The Iron Wall". The philosophy promoted in this work is in keeping with the words of many of the peope who built the state of Israel, including many of the former prime ministers. Their words are there for anyone to read.

Blaming it on the Arabs isn't going to heal the wounds of the middle east. Being honest about what was done, and endeavoring to correct the mistakes of the past (and the present) will heal the wounds of the middle east. And when that happens, Jews and Arabs will be able to live together again in peace as they did before the arrival of the Zionists.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 08:08 PM

Oops. Here's the link...

http://www.marxists.de/middleast/ironwall/ironwall.htm


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Deda
Date: 12 May 02 - 09:19 PM

Carol, is it your hope or expectation that the Zionists, and/or the Israeli nationalists, and/or the Hasidim, Lubavitchers, kibbutzniks, and all the other stripes of Jewish immigrants to Israel will collectively apologize and willingly go back into a worldwide diaspora? Several generations of Jews have now been born in Israel, and it is the only home they know or ever want to know. Let us say that I, as the non-Jewish relative of several Israeli Jews, say, "Yes, the settlement of Israel was done by desperate people using desperate measures, and done with little regard for what damage was done". Would that heal anything? Jews fleeing Europe in the 30s and 40s found no safe harbor in the world, in one disgraceful case not even in the US. (There was a ship full of Jewish refugees who was refused entry here as well as everywhere else they applied -- I don't remember the name of the ship but perhaps someone else will.) Given their history, particularly the European history of the 30s and 40s, they had nothing more to lose, and were a lot more desperate than the Puritans or any other colonists in history that I can think off off hand. Why would the Dutch have been desperate to settle in South Africa, or the French to settle Algeria, or the Portugese in Brazil, compared to what the european Jews must have been feeling in 1948? Understand, the number of Jews worldwide is even NOW, after more than fifty years, smaller than it was in 1939. Even knowing as many Jews as I do as well as I do, I can't imagine what they felt then.

When Israel was founded, Jewish ghettos and synagogues all over the Arab world were annihilated and their homes flattened or taken. The National Geographic did a piece a few years ago about the remains of the synagogues from north Africa to, I don't know, northern Iraq or so, where the Jewish populations are now below 1% where there are any at all. Those Jews went to Israel. Should their original homes be restored to them? They don't want them anymore.

I admit that I have a strong bias in this; I can't really help that. I believe that representative government, reward for personal industry, education, individual freedoms, open and accountable government, all the western values which Israel has tried to plant and instill, however imperfectly, in that corner of the world where they seem to have no other support, deserve to win. I am impressed that throughout the centuries of Europe's "dark ages", since before the Roman empire fell, there has never been a generation of Jewish boys who could not read and write, when my ancestors were worhipping trees.

I am chastised by people who tell me how much we owe to the Arab influence -- the concept of zero, the saving of classical western literature, the poetry of the Rubayat, etc. But I am western-centric. I've been reprimanded for valuing some people over others, and I don't want or mean to do that--but if I had to make a life-or-death choice between someone who believed that women should not drive, should not be seen in public, couldn't possibly think of voting, that theft is punishable by public mutilation and adultery by stoning to death -- between that person and ANY orthodox rabbi (and I've known quite a few) I'd pick the rabbi. For the most part, based on my experience, I trust and admire rabbis individually (I don't much trust any organized religion). I'm not God. I can't help thinking that my daughter and grandson, and their nearest and dearest, are a treasure in this world and must not be wasted. Of course Palestinian mothers and grandmothers must feel the same way -- which means that there has to be a compromise.

As I said before, I think the west bank has to be emptied of settlements, and a viable state of Palestine has to be brought into existence. I don't think that Ariel Sharon can do it, and I certainly don't think that Yasser Arafat has enough political shelf life left to be a meaningful part of it. But I hope that both sides will throw some other heros up the pop chart, to paraphrase Paul Simon. (I don't even think Bush can contribute much to this -- the 3 of them, Bush & Sharon & Arrafat, remind me of the 3 stooges--poking each other in the eyes, whacking each other over the head, pushing each other over, and then cackling gleefully.)

I hope it is clear that I am aware that I have biases, and I struggle with them. I don't know if it's possible to live in this world without bias, and I probably in the end have chosen the ones that fit me, and part of my struggle is to check that choice against the realities that present themselves to me on a daily, and sometimes hourly basis.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 10:08 PM

No, Deda. My hope is that the Palestinians will be granted their own state within the '67 borders, and that the settlements will be removed.

My wish is that people will learn to recognise that blaming the Arabs for the problems in the middle east is as much a form of spreading hatred as is anti-semitism. I don't expect that to happen right away, but I think if the Palestinians are allowed to have the same civil rights as the Jews in Israel, and those of us in the US, future generations will come to know that Arabs as friends rather than enemies.

No, Deda. My hope is that the Palestinians will be granted their own state withing the '67 borders, and that the settlements will be removed.

When Israel was founded, Jewish ghettos and synagogues all over the Arab world were annihilated and their homes flattened or taken. The National Geographic did a piece a few years ago about the remains of the synagogues from north Africa to, I don't know, northern Iraq or so, where the Jewish populations are now below 1% where there are any at all. Those Jews went to Israel. Should their original homes be restored to them? They don't want them anymore.

That this happened was a direct result of the actions of the Zionists in the middle east. I don't think it would make sense for the Jews to be given their land back in this case. But I also don't think it would make any sense to give the Palestinians back all of their land, either. Just let them have their own state within the 67 borders and remove the settlers.

Using a cultural basis for justifying the repression of people such as they way women are treated or other kinds of cultural considerations, is a bad one whenever it is used. Whether it is used against Native Americans, blacks, Jews, blacks in South Africa, the people of India (as was done by the British) or any number of native populations. This has been done so many times before by many governments throughout the world, and it has been found to be not only counter-productive, but also wrong.

troll, it looks like most people in Israel don't actually want the Palestinians to have an independent state. I just heard that the Likud party is being unanimous in it's opposition to independence for Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 10:09 PM

Oops. Department of Reduncy and Repetition Department.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 11:07 PM

Keep in mind, too, Deda, that when groups of people are repressed by outside forces, the members of the group who tend to suffer the most are the women and the children. So if you care about how women are treated, you would be helping them far more by helping to lift the group as a whole out of the externally applied repression, rather than supporting those outside groups who are responsible for the externally applied repression.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 12 May 02 - 11:07 PM

Yeah, I read that too. Netanyahu wants to oust Sharon. It was his doing.
I think that you will find, however, that the Zionists actually came into the area that we now call Israel and Palestine in the 1880's. According to Mark Twain, in his book "Innocents Abroad" there was almost no one living in the region when he passed through in the 1860's. The Zionists came in, settled and purchased land and "made the desert bloom". At that point Arabs began to move into the region where formerly there had been only Bedouins.
There appears to be an idea that there was a thriving Arab presence in the area since forever but this is an error. There were Arabs as well as Jews and Christians of various sects living in Jerusalem from the time of the Romans but there were relatively few people of any description outside Jerusalem and a few villages before the arrival of the Zionists in the 1880's.
Jabotinsky wrote "The Iron Wall" in 1923 when there was already a political movement afoot in Europe to partition Palestine and give the Jews a state. This may or may not have been due to Zionist pressure on the British Govt. but the Balfour Document was British and Britain held the Mandate over Palestine. Jabotinsky realized that the Arabs would not give up what they considered to be their land and that only a strong military force -an "Iron Wall"- could ever lead to a situation where the two peoples could live side by side. But he also realized that it must one day come, that the Jews could not push the Arabs completely out of the area nor could they rule over them.
With today's resolution by the Likud Party,click here things look bleaker than ever for a peaceful settlement. As I said about a month ago, I see all-out war in the region within two years.

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 02 - 11:13 PM

Troll, the version of the history of the region that you are referring to has been shown to be wrong. There are historians both within Israel as well as elsewhere who have provided ample documentation of this. I will provide some of this documentation when I've located it.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 13 May 02 - 03:06 AM

Protocols of the Elders of Zion: an instrument for antisemitic propaganda in Russia, forgery of the Okhrana (tsarist secret police.)
The other side of terrorism: Who assassinated Count Folke Bernadotte? Who placed the bomb in the King David Hotel (more than 200 British killed)?

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 13 May 02 - 03:19 AM

Mark Twain was wrong? Why would he have reported the conditions as other than as he found them? Are you saying that the Zionists did NOT come into the area in the 1880's? That they did not purchase land?click here. This speaks of attempts to purchase land in the Jezreel that went on for 20 years. Jews had fled Russia and the Ukraine in the 1880's to escape the pogroms there. My wife's maternal grandfather was among them. He came to America but many went to Palestine. There had already been influxes in the 18th century from Turkey, Yemen, Lybia and other North African countries. I look forward to reading your documentation.

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 02 - 03:29 AM

I'm working on it troll. The part of your post that I maintain is incorrect is this bit: there was almost no one living in the region when he passed through in the 1860's. The Zionists came in, settled and purchased land and "made the desert bloom". At that point Arabs began to move into the region where formerly there had been only Bedouins.

I've posted quite a lot of documentation about this in various links on the many threads on the middle east. But I get the impression that people aren't reading the links. I will post this stuff, but I need to go back through what I've already posted and consolidate the information I find. I don't want to do a quick and dirty job of it, so I'm probably not going to post the stuff until later tonight or tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Haruo
Date: 13 May 02 - 03:42 AM

FWIW, "The Turkish census for 1878 listed 462,465 Turkish subjects in the Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre districts: 403,795 Muslims (including Druze), 43,659 Christians and 15,011 Jews." The Ottoman census was undoubtedly unreliable, but the error is a tendency to underreport rather than overreport. Also, two significant groups were explicitly excluded from the census: the Bedouin nomads, and aliens [i.e. non-Ottoman-subjects]. Of the latter, it is thought that there were some 15,000 non-Ottoman Jews in the three districts (which together cover basically the same area as modern Israel/Palestine west of Jordan. Site where I found the statistics. These figures call into question (indeed, I would say, debunk) the notion that Palestine was "essentially unpopulated" at that time.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 02 - 05:33 AM

"At that point Arabs began to move into the region where formerly there had been only Bedouins."

Bedouins are Arabs.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 02 - 06:07 AM

Here's a link to Rabin's last speech, made just before he was assassinated, and the downward spiral started. (The man who shot him is undoubtedly rejoicing at the way the assassination has succeeded in shaping events, and especially at the Likud vote never to accept a Palestinian State.)

That comes from Ariga, a site which "carries mostly reports or links to reports about the Middle East peace process, with an emphasis on peace groups, joint Israeli-Arab efforts, and other attempts to make a new Middle East."


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 02 - 06:10 AM

Sorry - that link was not to Ariga, but back to Mudcat.

This one should be better:

Ariga "carries mostly reports or links to reports about the Middle East peace process, with an emphasis on peace groups, joint Israeli-Arab efforts, and other attempts to make a new Middle East."


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 02 - 07:41 AM

Before the Hebrews first migrated there around 1800 B.C., the land of Canaan was occupied by Canaanites.

"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes." Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, "Their Promised Land."

The present-day Palestinians' ancestral heritage

"But all these [different peoples who had come to Canaan] were additions, sprigs grafted onto the parent tree...And that parent tree was Canaanite...[The Arab invaders of the 7th century A.D.] made Moslem converts of the natives, settled down as residents, and intermarried with them, with the result that all are now so completely Arabized that we cannot tell where the Canaanites leave off and the Arabs begin." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."

The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine

"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan".

More on Canaanite civilization

"Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE." The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.

How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?

"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine".

"How did land ownership traditionally work in Palestine and when did it change?

"[The Ottoman Land Code of 1858] required the registration in the name of individual owners of agricultural land, most of which had never previously been registered and which had formerly been treated according to traditional forms of land tenure, in the hill areas of Palestine generally masha'a, or communal usufruct. The new law meant that for the first time a peasant could be deprived not of title to his land, which he had rarely held before, but rather of the right to live on it, cultivate it and pass it on to his heirs, which had formerly been inalienable...Under the provisions of the 1858 law, communal rights of tenure were often ignored...Instead, members of the upper classes, adept at manipulating or circumventing the legal process, registered large areas of land as theirs...The fellahin [peasants] naturally considered the land to be theirs, and often discovered that they had ceased to be the legal owners only when the land was sold to Jewish settlers by an absentee landlord...Not only was the land being purchased; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine." Rashid Khalidi, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens

Was Arab opposition to the arrival of Zionists based on inherent anti-Semitism or a real sense of danger to their community?

"The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was `to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.'...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha'am wrote that the Arabs "understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at'...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] `We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly'...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund's request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs. (emphasis mine) " John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.

"Inherent anti-Semitism? - continued

"Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880's...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it." (emphasis mine) Don Peretz, "The Arab-Israeli Dispute.

"Inherent anti-Semitism? - continued"

[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the 'rightful' possession of the 'Jewish people' to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants."

Jews attitude towards Arabs when reaching Palestine.

"Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination." Zionist writer Ahad Ha'am, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

"Proposals for Arab-Jewish Cooperation"

An article by Yitzhak Epstein, published in Hashiloah in 1907...called for a new Zionist policy towards the Arabs after 30 years of settlement activity...Like Ahad-Ha'am in 1891, Epstein claims that no good land is vacant, so Jewish settlement meant Arab dispossession...Epstein's solution to the problem, so that a new "Jewish question" may be avoided, is the creation of a bi-national, non-exclusive program of settlement and development. Purchasing land should not involve the dispossession of poor sharecroppers. It should mean creating a joint farming community, where the Arabs will enjoy modern technology. Schools, hospitals and libraries should be non-exclusivist and education bilingual...The vision of non-exclusivist, peaceful cooperation to replace the practice of dispossession found few takers. Epstein was maligned and scorned for his faintheartedness." Israeli author, Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, "Original Sins.

"Was Palestine the only, or even preferred, destination of Jews facing persecution when the Zionist movement started?

"The pogroms forced many Jews to leave Russia. Societies known as 'Lovers of Zion,' which were forerunners of the Zionist organization, convinced some of the frightened emigrants to go to Palestine. There, they argued, Jews would rebuild the ancient Jewish 'Kingdom of David and Solomon,' Most Russian Jews ignored their appeal and fled to Europe and the United States. By 1900, almost a million Jews had settled in the United States alone." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by The People Press Palestine Book Project."

The above is excerpted from the Jews for Justice in the Middle East site.

http://www.cactus48.com/earlyhistory.html

There is more in the site that addresses this issue, some of which can be found here...


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 02 - 07:52 AM

The fourth to last full paragraph in my above post should have this attribution: Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

And I seem to have lost the second link in my last post. Here it is...

http://www.cactus48.com/cactus.html


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 02 - 07:55 AM

Also, I seem to have lost this part of my second to last post...

And there are other sites, some of which I did not post links to because I felt it would have been redundant. I'm wishing I had saved the sites in my links page, but I didn't. So now I have to figure out a way to find them again. Maybe later today or tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 13 May 02 - 08:37 AM

Kevin, I should have been more specific. What I was talking about were settled Arabs, agriculturalists and craftsmen, not nomads like the Bedouin.
Twain said that the Jezreel was very sparsely inhabited. He was there, I was not. Since he had no particuliar political axe to grind, I feel that his account of his journey to Jerusalem was probably fairly accurate. From what I have been able to gather, most of the population was centered along the fertile coast and the Jordan River.
So it is quite possible to have a large Arab population AND sparsely inhabited interior sections. I didn't realize that the link to the land purchases did not take. I'll try to find it.
Lastly, while Jews For Justice may have good documentation, it is important to remember that they have an agenda and that their documents are going to support that agenda. I'm not saying that they are not true, I simply wonder if they present ALL the truth.

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 13 May 02 - 09:07 AM

Perhaps the clicky will work this time. I'll also leave the url just in case it doesn't. This deals with the purchase of land in Palestine by the Zionists.

="http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6640/zion/emek.html"

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6640/zion/emek.html

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 02 - 09:11 AM

Some more stuff...

Ahad Ha'Am, a liberal Russian Jewish thinker and a leading Eastern European Jewish essayist, who visited Palestine in 1891 for three months.Famous Quotes

In 1891 Ahad Ha'Am opened many Jewish eyes to the fact the Palestine was not empty, but populated with its indigenous people when he wrote: "We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ..... But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains .... are not cultivated." (Righteous Victims, p. 42)

Since writing that book, Righteous Victims, author Benny Morris is feeling an inclination to trash the Palestinians these days. The reasons he has given, however, are the same lies about Arafat walking away from the peace process that have been debunked by quotes from this interview with Shimon Peres... http://www.israelemb.org/articals/2001092401.html and this article... http://www.nybooks.com/articles/14380

More on the "empty land" myth...

"Some Booby Prizes for Myths, Mistakes, Misplacement, and More"

By John Law, May/June 1991, Page 35 Most Casual Myth-Dropper: To Veteran New York Times Correspondent Henry Kamm

On April 21, writing from Jerusalem, he led a story with the following sentence: "Israel, having made the desert bloom, a proud early achievement, is now counting the costs of its remarkable development in agriculture." The myth that Israelis "made the desert bloom" obviously lives on, despite overwhelming and still accumulating documentary evidence that long before Jewish settlers began arriving in any significant numbers early in this century, Palestinian farmers had already been making the desert bloom, with a flourishing agriculture and a substantial export of fruits and vegetables.

http://www.mideastfacts.com/media_myopia.html

This item from that site is interesting in light of the idea so many people have that the Palestinians are intractable...

Deepest Burial of an Important News Item: The New York Times

"On March 26, in the very last paragraph of a 1,000-word story published on page 13, mention was made of an interview that Yasser Arafat gave in Tunis to The Toronto Star, which was carried by Reuters on its wires. According to Reuters, Arafat said "the PLO would accept a United Nations buffer zone on the Palestinian side of the border between Israel and a future Palestinian state. " Although it was not startling news, it was important in the context of a renewed "peace process" in which Israeli officials are continually bringing up the point that Palestinians would attack them if they were given an independent state. It seems, therefore, that the item would have been worth putting more prominently into the record, rather than at the bottom of a long story that starts on page 13. It's likely that few American readers are aware that Arafat has ever made a statement that the Palestine Liberation Organization would allow its hands to be tied by international security agreements, even though he's made such statements before. As far as can be ascertained from a scanning of many newspapers other than the Times, US readers didn't learn it this time either."

And there's plenty more. I'll keep looking.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 02 - 09:23 AM

I forgot the link for the bit by Ahad Ha'Am...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story642.html

I think it's worth remembering, troll, that everyone who has strong feelings on this issue as an ajenda of one sort or another. Even you, and the people you've been listening to.

Re: Mark Twain. He was a writer of fiction. He was also a legendary embellisher. That's what made him such an interesting writer. I don't think Mark Twain can be regarded as the only qualified expert on the Palestine of his times. And also, check out some of the quotes I posted above from other people who were there during that time period. They paint an entirely different sort of picture.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 13 May 02 - 10:15 AM

Twain wrote about Palestine as he passed through the area on a 'round-the-world trip. So he was there. While he is best known as a writer of fiction, his training was as a newspaper reporter and riverboat pilot. We may be sure that he knew how to observe his surroundings and recall them later accurately. All his previous training had prepared him for just that sort of thing. Twain was speaking of the Jezreel Valley in his comments and I see no reason why his observations should not be a valid as those of any other person. Perhaps your examples were speaking of a different area.
As for Ahad Ha'Am, he was speaking of Palestine nearly 20 years after Twain traveled through it and much had changed. I have never said that there were few if any Arabs in Plaestine. Of course they were there. The Ottoman census places them there. But where were they within the confines of what we now call "Palestine"?
I think that they were mostly along the coastal areas and the Jordan River. I shall attempt to find out.

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 02 - 10:24 AM

Good luck with that troll. I'll keep looking too.

However, regardless of which parts of Palestine the Palestinians were living in and cultivating, I think we have shown that this statement by you is factually incorrect...

There appears to be an idea that there was a thriving Arab presence in the area since forever but this is an error. There were Arabs as well as Jews and Christians of various sects living in Jerusalem from the time of the Romans but there were relatively few people of any description outside Jerusalem and a few villages before the arrival of the Zionists in the 1880's.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:30 AM

It's sort of hard to explain how these orange groves (famous Jaffa oranges) and olive orchards were there for generations in the same family if no one was actually there. Also, I have read that "making the desert bloom" is a very offensive phrase to Palestinians so I offer that up as a phrase that should be considered for abandoment if one does not want to offend. mg


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: GUEST,Native
Date: 13 May 02 - 04:52 PM

Deta concider Jewish mutilations..Troll the turks occupied Palestine and were cleared out by Gen.Allenby..Wilfried is right concider the Stern gang,Troll 3 millian jews left Russia to go to the States


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 02 - 08:29 PM

The past is the past. It's important to know it, and it's important that both peoples understand the version of it which is current on the other side, and look towards a version that is closer to the real facts.

But the past can't be changed, and it shouldn't determine what happens next. And it is especially important that people should be willing to accept that injustice has been done by their own side, well within living memory.

Arguments about who lived where and when, in themselves are beside the point. People have a right to live where they have grown up, and refugees have a right to return home. At the same time, that's a right which the realities of the time appear to rule out in practice.

That's as true of refugees from ancient Jewish communities throughout the Middle East and elsewhere as it is for Palestinians. It would be a step towards peace if all the countries involved could admit their guilt in this matter, and declare that their countries are the poorer for the loss.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 13 May 02 - 10:06 PM

Jaffa is a coastal town. There were many people of different backgrounds living in the coastal areas. Carol, you are quite correct and my statement was in error.
If "making the desert bloom" is offensive to the Palestinians, one has to wonder why. Could it be because the Jewish immigrants took land that the Palestinians had done nothing with and made it productive? Or is there some other reason?
Kevin, if the "Right of Return" were extended to everyone then the descendents of the Scots who fled after the '45 and the Highland Clearances would surely have a field day reclaiming their ancestral lands to say nothing of the Irish who left during the Potato Famine.
The mind boggles.

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 02 - 10:45 PM

If "making the desert bloom" is offensive to the Palestinians, one has to wonder why. Could it be because the Jewish immigrants took land that the Palestinians had done nothing with and made it productive? Or is there some other reason?

'

I would think it much more logical to think that they would be offended because the Israelis are trying to take credit for the Palestinians' accomplishments, and in the process, trying to erase the Palestinians' history, and, indeed, the Palestinians themselves.

If you require more documentation, I can provide it, but I should point out that a lot of it is quite embarassing for Israel.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:09 PM

You might be surprised if I told you, troll, that I do not enjoy researching the history of the middle east as I have been doing the last few weeks. Many of the things I have learned have been profoundly disturbing to me, and I could have been very content to spend the rest of my life not knowing these things, and just live my life in my protected little world.

But, how does that saying go about speaking up? I don't remember the exact wording, but I believe it goes something like this...

They came for the Jews and I didn't speak up for them. Then they came for the Gypsies and I didn't speak up for them. Then they came for the homosexuals and I didn't speak up for them Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up for them. Then, when they came for me, there was no one left to speak up for me.

I noticed that almost no one was speaking up for the Palestinians, and no one seemed to think there was anything wrong with this.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 14 May 02 - 12:13 AM

Speak. It's your right and, some would say, your duty. But the Israelis have made the Negev bloom and the Palestinians had nothing whatsoever to do with it. I am sure that there is documentation showing that there were orange groves and olive orchards in Palestine when the first Jewish immigrants arrived and the Palestinians (and Jews And Christians) who owned them were justifiably proud of their efforts.
These are not the places refered to as deserts that were made to bloom. How could they be. They were not desert.
But there was and is desert that has been brought into productive cultivation by those settlers and their descendents and they should be afforded the same right of pride as anyone else.
To read some of the anti-Zionist sites, you'd think that Palestine was a beautiful garden from the river to the sea before the Zionists seized everything, destroyed it, and then rebuilt it, claiming that they were the originators of the garden.
I am aware of the stories of the hundreds of villages destroyed by the Haganah after 1948 so the Israelis could claim that the land was empty. It does not ring true. There were plenty of Europeans and Americans who were familiar with the area and who were not fond of either Jews and/or Zionists. I'm sure they would have noticed something missing. But most of the links I've seen cite fairly recent articles. It doesn't seem logical that those who wished to debunk the blooming desert story would wait 30 or 40 years to publish it.

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 02 - 12:41 AM

The problem with the "making the desert bloom" catchphrase is that people are using it to make claims like the one you made about Palestine being an empty land when the Zionists arrived, and that the Palestinians didn't have anything to do with making it a productive place prior to their arrival, or that they, in fact, were making any use of it at all. You have acknowleged that this is factually incorrect.

This myth, of Palestine being an empty land for a people without any land, is a part of a defamation campaign that the Israeli and US governments have been waging against the Palestinians for decades. And people are using these kinds of defamatory lies to justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Palestine, and to support the notion that Jews have a more valid claim to the area than the Palestinians. Perhaps you aren't, but many people are.

The lies about Arafat walking away from the peace process, the lies about Palestine being an empty land, the lies about the Palestinians coming to the Palestine only after the Jews made it desirable with their efforts. And the lies of omission, only reporting the deaths of innocent Jews, and not reporting the deaths of innocent Palestinians. All of these lies serve one purpose. To spread hatred against the Palestinians. This is no less wrong than spreading hatred of Jews with defamatory lies such as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". I both cases, such defamatory lies cost innocent people their lives.

However, I will start collecting some more documentation for you and I'll post it when I have it. But I have to tell you, I'm getting tired, and I wish you would give me a rest.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 May 02 - 01:45 AM

Skipping past the whole "who gardened first" discussion, and way off-topic: Troll, when you said "At that point Arabs began to move into the region where formerly there had been only Bedouins," what did you mean by "only?" Are the lives and livelihoods of nomadic pastoralists any less important than those of sedentary dirt-farmers? Is sheepherding somehow less noble than rooting in the earth like a pig? I find comments like "only Bedouins" disturbing, and representative of the widespread hatred of nomads, pastoralist or otherwise, among settled peoples. From neo-nazi attacks on Roma in Europe, to China's "resettlement" of ethnic Han peasants on the lands of aboriginal Tibetans and Mongols, abuses against nomads (or settled nomads, or those percieved to be nomads) rarely make the news, and few would care, if they did.

Uhh, where was I? Ah, yes: What's the big deal about "blooming deserts," anyways?

I guess I just can't see why you, Troll, and others, seem to judge the worth of a people on how many olives they produced, or how much desert they "bloomed." There were people in Palestine, outside Jerusalem, before the Zionists arived. Nomadic and sedentary, and mostly non-Jewish. They were the aboriginal inhabitants of the area. So why must you try to de-humanise the nomadic population with statements like "formerly there had been only Bedouins?" They were people, they used that "barren" land, and had more of a claim to it than the Zionists.

Bleh. :P

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Haruo
Date: 14 May 02 - 01:55 AM

The settler-vs.-nomad enmity goes way back before Abraham in the religious traditions of the Semitic monotheists; indeed, it's the subject (or at least a subject) of the second narrative in the Bible, "Cain and Abel". Like the Jews and the Arabs, they were brothers.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: GUEST,Teddy H.
Date: 14 May 02 - 01:50 PM

A short excerpt from Thomas Friedman's column in yesterday's NY Times:

At its best, the Internet can educate more people faster than any media tool we've ever had. At its worst, it can make people dumber faster than any media tool we've ever had. The lie that 4,000 Jews were warned not to go into the World Trade Center on Sept. 11 was spread entirely over the Internet and is now thoroughly believed in the Muslim world. Because the Internet has an aura of "technology" surrounding it, the uneducated believe information from it even more. They don't realize that the Internet, at its ugliest, is just an open sewer: an electronic conduit for untreated, unfiltered information.

Worse, just when you might have thought you were all alone with your extreme views, the Internet puts you together with a community of people from around the world who hate all the things and people you do. And you can scrap the BBC and just get your news from those Web sites that reinforce your own stereotypes.

When I read Friedman's column yesterday, I couldn't help but think of many of the links supplied by CarolC.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: SharonA
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:18 PM

Um... shouldn't this thread title read "Part IV"? Of course, if "GUEST,leveller" had typed the proper Roman numeral "III" instead of "111" for Part 3 of this discussion, we wouldn't have this problem in Part 4.

Odd, isn't it, that each of the four parts of this discussion about "Who" certain people are was started by a person who won't reveal who he or she is!


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:21 PM

The refugees from 1948 are still alive. That's the big difference. This isn't something that happened long ago, it happened within living memory.

Hitler murdered people by the million, and tried to wipe out whole populations. So did Genghis Khan. But we don't feel the same about the two. If we met a Mongolian who told us how he sees Genghis Khan as a great hero, we'd probably feel amused. If we met a German who said that about Hitler we definitely would not see it as funny. It makes a difference how long ago things happened - maybe that's not logical, but that's how we work.

The injustice that was done to the refugees of 1948, to the Palestinians refused permission to return to their homes after the war, and the Jews forced from their long established communities into exile in Israel is an injustice that happened recently, and it is the poison at the root of what has happened since.

Even so, I wasn't suggesting that it is possible to think about reversing the ethnic cleansing that was carried out. I was suggesting that it could be a small but significant step towards peace for the nations involved to publicly recognise the wrong that was done, and express deep regret that it had not happened, and that the exiles had not been exiled.

I suppose it is possible to hope that in some peace settlement that appears beyond hope at present, some old people might be allowed to come home to die - and that at some future time some kind of friendship between the two peoples might come about. When that happens people will look back on partition and occupation and war, and wonder how their ancestors could have been so crazy. Like looking back on the Civil War in America, and the earlier ones in England.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:25 PM

The refugees from 1948 are still alive. That's the big difference. This isn't something that happened long ago, it happened within living memory.

Hitler murdered people by the million, and tried to wipe out whole populations. So did Genghis Khan. But we don't feel the same about the two. If we met a Mongolian who told us how he sees Genghis Khan as a great hero, we'd probably feel amused. If we met a German who said that about Hitler we definitely would not see it as funny. It makes a difference how long ago things happened - maybe that's not logical, but that's how we work.

The injustice that was done to the refugees of 1948, to the Palestinians refused permission to return to their homes after the war, and the Jews forced from their long established communities into exile in Israel is an injustice that happened recently, and it is the poison at the root of what has happened since.

Even so, I wasn't suggesting that it is possible to think about reversing the ethnic cleansing that was carried out. I was suggesting that it could be a small but significant step towards peace for the nations involved to publicly recognise the wrong that was done, and express deep regret that it happened, and a wish that the exiles had not been exiled.

I suppose it is possible to hope that in some peace settlement that appears beyond hope at present, some old people might be allowed to come home to die - and that at some future time some kind of friendship between the two peoples might come about. When that happens people will look back on partition and occupation and war, and wonder how their ancestors could have been so crazy. Like looking back on the Civil War in America, and the earlier ones in England.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 02 - 06:55 PM

I've spent pretty much all of the last several days reading what Jewish people from all points of the spectrum of this issue (people in both the US and Israel) have to say about it. The conclusion I am drawing from what I've read is that the current situation in Israel/Palestine is not a struggle between Israelis and Palestinians, or between Israelis and Arabs.

The conclusion I find myself drawing, based on what I have read, is that it is really a struggle between different ideologies, and concepts of what it means to be Jewish, that is taking place within the hearts, minds, and souls of Jews, both in the US and in Israel.

I feel that I have lived up to my responsibility as a human being. I haven't remained silent in the face of what I have perceived to be injustice, I spoke up for a people whom I percieved to be in need, and I didn't allow myself to become complicit with either my silence or my cooperation. I feel that, having done that, it is now time for me to leave this struggle to those to whom it belongs.

I am including these links to essays written by some Jews who belong to the Not In My Name organization, not because I want to try to prove any points or historical facts, or to answer troll's questions or rebut any of his arguments, but because I think they illustrate the nature of this struggle from an inner perspective, based on the things I've read from all of the different points on the spectrum of this issue. They have been written by people who are trying to promote a peaceful resolution to the situation, but they include the words and perspectives of people who do not agree with that approach.

And now I will attempt to exit this discussion.

On The Rabbis and the Future of Jewish Life by Marc H. Ellis

Long Night's Journey Into Day by Jeffrey Rose

Alone Among My Peers at My Yeshiva University High School Reunion by Ronald Bleier

Thou Shalt Not Kill by Steven Feuerstein

Here's the website for Not in my Name. More essays like the ones I've linked to above can be found in this site if you scroll down to the Menorah and click on "From a Jewish Perspective"

Not In My Name


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: Troll
Date: 15 May 02 - 11:28 PM

Lepus, would you have felt any better if I had said "just" instead of "only"?" Probably not, since you seem to have an axe to grind at any post that gives the appearance of disparaging the Palestinian Arabs.
Since The Bedouins were nomads or semi-nomads they used the land in very different ways than did the farmers and they had just as much right to the land as anyone. But it is a political and historical fact that land belongs to whoever can hold it and keep it. Your comments about the Roma and what the Han have done to the Tibetans quite true. The Han are doing the same thing to the people of Western China, the Uighir.
But the world changes and peoples change with it or they disappear. Control of land changes. The nomads of the world have gotten short shrift from the governments of the lands they once roamed freely but the security of borders outweights the wants and needs of small groups of nomads.
It isn't a nice thing to contemplate and much may be lost to the world in the way of languages and folk-knowledge to name two but there it is. Reality rears its'ugly head.
So get off your high horse.
Now, as far as the Bedouin being the aboriginal inhabitants of that area, most historians seem to feel that the Cannanites were there first and they were supplanted by the Twelve Tribes of Israel under Joshua. There have been Jews in that part of the world ever since. I don't know when the Bedouin came into the area but I'm pretty sure that it was after the Roman occupation.
I'm not passing judgement on anyone, herder or farmer. I'm simply stating that the late 19th and early 20th century Jewish settlers took land which they percieved as un- or under-utilized and by hard work made it arable. They purchased the land in most cases and there is extant correspondence regarding that. One of the links in this post talks about the problems encountered.
I am aware that there were times when Arab farmers were forced off land they considered theirs when it was sold by an absentee landlord. I can sympathize with them; the same thing happened to my people in Scotland.
Now Carol, I didn't say that the whole land was empty outside of Jerusalem. Jaffa oranges were mentioned by the Crusaders. The Jewish and later Zionist (not always the same) settlers bought the lands they farmed or took up land where there were no people using it. I'm certain that there were Bedouin herders who got a major shock when they found people farming what they had long considered their grazing grounds. As I said earlier, conditions change.
There follows Mark Twains account of traveling through the Jezreel Valley in 1867. There is also a link to an account of Zionist attempts to purchase the valley. Also there is a link to the Church of the Nativity story in Time Magazine. Just to keep things current.
You have asked for a break? You got it.
On Saturday morning at zero dark thirty, I, one suticase and two guitars will board a plane for Japan for a six month gig at Disney Tokyo Resort. I'm taking a laptop but I don't know how expensive it will be to get online. The cost may be prohibitive in which case I'll use the laptop to compose e-mails to Memsahib and post them at the local internet cafe. If I can get online, you'll know it but it will be at least a week so enjoy the respite.

troll

There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent [valley of Jezreel] — not for 30 miles in either direction. . . . One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings.

For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee . . . Nazareth is forlorn . . . Jericho lies a moldering ruin . . . Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation . . . untenanted by any living creature . . . .

A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds . . a silent, mournful expanse . . . a desolation . . . . We never saw a human being on the whole route . . . . Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country . . . .

Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes . . . desolate and unlovely . . . . — Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad, 1867

http://www.tzemach.org/fyi/docs/nopal.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-breitbart051402.asp

troll


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 02 - 06:46 AM

Well, he was feeling a bit low. Hardly evidence. "One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings." I've done that in Ireland.

"Might makes right" is essentially what you are saying, troll. I doubt if younactually beliueve that. What is true is that unjust might often does triumph, and after a time it becomes futile to argue against it in terms of justice.


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Subject: RE: Who Are The Terrorists: Part 112
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 02 - 10:37 AM

"I doubt if you actually believe that." By that, troll, I mean that if you actually believed that the only thing which mattered was who has the ability to keep hold of what they have taken possession of, all this about who was there when and so forth, would be completely irrelevant, whether the "who" in question was Palestinians in the 19th century, or in 1948, or Jews thousands of years ago or today.


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