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'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3

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Dave Bulmer (discussion) (114)
CM (Celtic Music, label) releases (10)
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'Celtic / Bulmer' aborted Part 3 (12) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Pt 2 (96) (closed)
The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga (161) (closed)


Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 29 Mar 02 - 11:45 AM
Jeri 29 Mar 02 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,P.H. 30.4.02. 30 Apr 02 - 08:21 AM
Noreen 30 Apr 02 - 09:03 AM
Joe Offer 01 May 02 - 03:30 AM
Noreen 01 May 02 - 03:41 AM
GUEST 01 May 02 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,guest. john sutherland. 01 May 02 - 11:13 AM
Ralphie 01 May 02 - 11:18 AM
GUEST 01 May 02 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Nerd 01 May 02 - 03:08 PM
Ralphie 01 May 02 - 03:44 PM
GUEST 01 May 02 - 07:16 PM
DonD 01 May 02 - 10:25 PM
Ralphie 02 May 02 - 02:19 AM
Nerd 02 May 02 - 02:24 AM
Ralphie 02 May 02 - 02:26 AM
Ralphie 02 May 02 - 02:39 AM
Ralphie 02 May 02 - 02:42 AM
Nerd 02 May 02 - 02:46 AM
GUEST,john sutherland 02 May 02 - 08:20 AM
GUEST 02 May 02 - 08:45 AM
Nerd 02 May 02 - 09:09 AM
GUEST 02 May 02 - 09:17 AM
Ralphie 02 May 02 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,john sutherland 03 May 02 - 05:36 AM
GUEST 03 May 02 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, IOM 03 May 02 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,john sutherland 05 May 02 - 09:02 AM
Ralphie 05 May 02 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,jez. Leeds. 07 May 02 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,jez. Leeds. 11 May 02 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,Mike in Bristol 13 May 02 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Mike, Horfield, Bristol 16 May 02 - 03:23 AM
okthen 16 May 02 - 12:00 PM
Herga Kitty 16 May 02 - 03:25 PM
Ralphie 16 May 02 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Mike, Horfield, Bristol 17 May 02 - 12:43 AM
treewind 11 Jul 02 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Pat Cooksey, Germany. 11 Jul 02 - 04:50 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 02 - 05:38 PM
RolyH 11 Jul 02 - 06:04 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 02 - 12:04 AM
treewind 12 Jul 02 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,Pat Cooksey, Germany. 12 Jul 02 - 06:55 AM
treewind 12 Jul 02 - 11:22 AM
treewind 12 Jul 02 - 12:12 PM
treewind 12 Jul 02 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 17 Jul 02 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,ivan@kissmurphy.com.au 05 Aug 02 - 04:30 AM
Noreen 05 Aug 02 - 08:00 AM
GUEST 05 Aug 02 - 08:57 AM
Noreen 05 Aug 02 - 10:35 AM
Harry Basnett 05 Aug 02 - 04:15 PM
RolyH 05 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM
Noreen 06 Aug 02 - 10:01 AM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 10:28 AM
Noreen 06 Aug 02 - 10:51 AM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:04 AM
IanC 06 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 06 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 11:41 AM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 12:21 PM
Noreen 06 Aug 02 - 12:30 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 12:36 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 12:45 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 12:54 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 01:09 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 01:36 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 02:08 PM
Harry Basnett 06 Aug 02 - 03:47 PM
Noreen 06 Aug 02 - 04:25 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 04:45 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 06:21 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 06:44 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,Ivan (ivan@kissmurphy.com.au) 06 Aug 02 - 09:13 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:57 PM
GUEST,Ivan 07 Aug 02 - 01:02 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:24 AM
Derby Ram 07 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM
Derby Ram 07 Aug 02 - 05:06 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Ivan 07 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 11:38 AM
graham_t 07 Aug 02 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 07 Aug 02 - 12:52 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:11 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:22 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:38 PM
Derby Ram 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 07:13 PM
Derby Ram 08 Aug 02 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 08 Aug 02 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 08 Aug 02 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Pat Cooksey. Germany. 08 Aug 02 - 05:48 AM
GUEST 08 Aug 02 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 08 Aug 02 - 12:05 PM
GUEST 08 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 09 Aug 02 - 03:58 AM
pavane 09 Aug 02 - 04:05 AM
GUEST,Guest. John. 09 Aug 02 - 06:15 AM
Nerd 09 Aug 02 - 03:10 PM
GUEST 09 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM
pavane 09 Aug 02 - 05:24 PM
RolyH 09 Aug 02 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,guest. John. 10 Aug 02 - 12:50 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 10 Aug 02 - 04:42 AM
pavane 10 Aug 02 - 06:57 AM
Ralphie 10 Aug 02 - 02:25 PM
GUEST 10 Aug 02 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Andy, I-O-M 11 Aug 02 - 04:19 AM
pavane 11 Aug 02 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Mike, Horfield, Bristol 13 Aug 02 - 12:26 PM
GUEST 13 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,John, Horfield, Bristol 14 Aug 02 - 02:42 AM
nickp 14 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM
GUEST 14 Aug 02 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Dick Gaughan 19 Aug 02 - 09:21 PM
Big Mick 19 Aug 02 - 09:33 PM
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Subject: Celtic Music etc Part 3
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 11:45 AM

Part 2 was getting to long for the people with old computers, sorry i don't have time to make link to part 2, I am just setting off for work.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music etc Part 3
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 11:51 AM

Continued from:
Part 1
Part 2


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Pt 2
From: GUEST,P.H. 30.4.02.
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:21 AM

I am not able to give my name at the moment, but it will soon become common knowlege. I too was foolish enough to sign contracts with this company and I believe I was the first ever to do so. Celtic Music owe me a considerable amount of money in royalties and still hold copywright on my works and any attempt on my part to raise this matter with Bulmer is either ignored or answered evasively by Neil Sharpley, who still acts as front man for this organisation to this day. Celtic Music is NOT a member of MCPS, which in itself is very unusual for a record company and they collect royalties direct from record companies, which makes the job of tracing these royalties very difficult but not impossible. I have taken legal advice on this matter and my case is watertight, and although I have little hope of recovering monies due to me I will fight for the rights to my work. I have raised this matter with PRS and provided them with all the information at my disposal concerning this company and it's dealings, and you will not be surprised to hear that every clause in my contract's dealing with the obligations of Celtic Music towards me have not been kept, other than to collect monies due to me and retained. I can understand why so many artists were duped into signing contracts with this company, I knew Dave Bulmer personally as a friend and fellow musician, I have visited his office and stayed at his home and if he can treat me in this fashion it is no surprise that he has no problem cheating others. I should mention also that I have released several C.D.'s without Bulmer's knowlege in different countries and I would welcome a challenge from him on this matter. If you would like more information I can contact you direct by E.Mail, let me know. Keep up the good work, it's good to see that so many others are striving to bring down this corrupt organisation.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:03 AM

Good luck, PH.


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Subject: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:30 AM

This is part three of this thread. there was another part 3, but it turned into a flame fest, so I diverted it. I transferred the applicable messages here, and left the others to duke it out amongst themselves.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:41 AM

Thanks Joe, and as I said earlier, good luck, PH. Let us know how you get on.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 07:50 AM

Ah, the heavy hand of Mudcat censorship strikes again. "Personal attacks" justifications, right Joe? You are going to save us all from daring to discuss another poster.

There apparently is plenty of room to leave in the personal, really horrible attacks on guests, but no room for some good natured, innocuous ribbing of the membership, right?

No double standard here.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,guest. john sutherland.
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:13 AM

this saga is far from over, but good to see bulmer and sharpley on the defensive, good luck P.H. it's not over till it's over.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:18 AM

Joe...very sensible.....hope the aborted thread withers on the vine!
Now....Who is Guest P.H. ?
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:24 AM

Of course you believe Joe Offer is very sensible to censor your enemies, right Ralphie?

Until he starts censoring you too.


I'm sorry our Guest has suffered a bruised ego, but her messages were NOT censored. Click here to see her comments, which remain in the thread where she posted them.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:08 PM

Guest PH: Good Luck. Joe: right on.

To bring this back to Bulmer/ Celtic Music, I think this issue is too important to get swallowed up by "what's wrong with Mudcat" considerations. Remember, people's livelihoods are at stake!

Or to put it another way, on one track of a buried Bulmer LP, Nic Jones plays the world's smallest violin for some of our posters who shall (literally) remain nameless.

cheers!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:44 PM

I stand by my comments re Joes policing. And if I ever offend the people that run this place, I would happily put up with the slapping that I would truly deserve.!
And...Nerd....explain please?? (Or am I just being thick!)
Regards Ralphie
Mmmmm, How did Joe know that Guest was a woman??
And.....You're my enemy?....Nice to know I suppose!! I'd PM you, but as a Guest, I can't do that.....Shame..


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 07:16 PM

Oh I'm sure there are more than a few people who would LOVE to expose all us anonymous guests, just like you would do given the chance Ralphie. In fact, I'm quite certain Max will do just that one of these days, because he strikes me as a very immature, vengeful kind of guy. This sort of identity conjecture isn't the least bit uncommon here in Mudcat the minute an anon guest hits someone or other's nerve. The offended Mudcat party declares with absolute certainty the poster is this or that disgruntled member/former member, this or that person they went round with in this thread or that, etc ad nauseum. Why just in these threads alone, George H. accused several guests of being several different people, the most entertaining of which was that we were actually Mr. or Mrs. Dave Bulmer. Got a good chuckle out of that one.

Yours forever Ralphie and Joe,

Mrs. Bulmer


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: DonD
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:25 PM

I'm fascinated by this GUEST with the bug up its (no sexist presumtoins here) ass, or since it's probably in the UK, arse. As part of the ongoing 'discussion' over 'guest' behavior, I'm more and more convinced that 'guest' is simply the wrong word.

Even if you announce an 'open house' you expect th people who comwe in as anonymous strangers to show some respect for the hosts and their invited friends. Those who do are treated as and called 'guests'; those who create a disturbance, complain about the refreshments, monopolize the conversation with solely negative comments, and such are called 'gate crsshers' and it's made very clear to them that they're unwelcome -- or the call goes out for "SECURITY!!!"

If you don't like it here so much, GUEST, GUEST, GuEST, and GUEST, go away!!

I don't know Nic Jones (though I'm glad to hear he's better) nor Dave Bulmer (though I'm glad to hear he's worse), but I'm interested to read threads without constant, boring carping from gate crashers.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 May 02 - 02:19 AM

Mmmmm Guest (Mrs Bulmer)...Whatever that means !
I understand, and can even agree with some of your points, and, indeed I have been guilty of a few childish comments in this forum, since this whole sorry saga started, for which Mea Culpa..The tablets are beginning to work, I'm glad to say...!!
I won't repeat myself here, as to why I can't let this injustice continue, but, If you are indeed, who you say you are, maybe you can have some influence on the situation...
For, without some reasonable solution regarding the lost Leader/Trailer/Highway/Rubber...(etc) albums, I'm afraid life will only get less fun for you....Not meant to be a threat, honestly, It's just that there are a lot of very annoyed people out there who won't let it go...
As you know the "Unearthed" project has been very successful for Nic, and finally some monies have been coming in, but, others have not been so lucky methinks..Tony Rose, for one,
If you are, indeed who you say you are, become a member, don't go into the Forum,if you don't want too. (Nobody will even know your chosen name) and PM me..I promise that I'll keep any conversations we may have Private..
Best Wishes....Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Nerd
Date: 02 May 02 - 02:24 AM

Ralphie (and others who may not have gotten my reference):

"Playing the world's smallest violin" is a gesture made by rubbing together the tips of your thumb and middle finger. It denotes a sarcastic parody of sympathy as in "oh yes, your troubles are SO much worse than the troubles I've got."

Often, while gesturing, the gesturer will say "you know what this is?" When the complainer says "what?" the gesturer answers "it's the world's smallest violin playing for your censored internet messages!"

My point is just that the Bulmer situation is a serious one for many people, including Nic. It's disrespectful to them to turn the discussion of their problems into moaning that "when I criticize Joe Offer My thread gets renamed!"

My final point (and I did have one): Nic and people in his position vis a vis Bulmer are the ones with the real problems, so they deserve to make the "world's smallest violin" gesture.

Sorry to be cryptic!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 May 02 - 02:26 AM

PS
This also applies if you are not who say you are !!!!
I just can't see why you are so angry??
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 May 02 - 02:39 AM

Nerd
Many thanks for that explanation.....Never heard of it before
And me, with a brain the size of a planet!!
Trouble is, the planet is Pluto! All the best,
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 May 02 - 02:42 AM

Oh Blimey, You know what I've done?
Provoked all the pedants out there, who will prove to me that Pluto is not in fact a true planet....!
Sorry Folks.....Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Nerd
Date: 02 May 02 - 02:46 AM

And anyway, Pluto's pretty big relative to the average human brain, so I'm still impressed!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,john sutherland
Date: 02 May 02 - 08:20 AM

Although I am not without a sense of humour it would be better to focus this thread on the subject. Bulmer and Sharpley are still operating and causing great distress to many artists whose work they continue to plunder. I note that Dick Gaughan has, or had, a connection to this company, and worked in Bulmers recording studio remixing old album tracks, etc, any information on this.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 02 - 08:45 AM

Yes John, there is. Amazingly enough, if you actually read these threads, you will find information on this.

You could also ask Dick Gaughan yourself. He frequents the uk.music.folk newsgroup, has a website which, if I'm not mistaken, provides a way to contact him personally.

No one in this forum can speak on behalf of Dick Gaughan. Or anyone else, for that matter. Unless Nic and Julia have hired Ralphie as their PR rep, that is.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Nerd
Date: 02 May 02 - 09:09 AM

John,

amazing how in trying to get away from off-topic whining I drifted into off-topic humor, isn't it? Sorry!

Dick's two solo LPs (No More Forever and Kist O' Gold) and at least two of his Five Hand Reel albums--classics all--are tied up in this mess too. It's a crime what's happened to him, and it's a crime that groundbreaking work like these albums are buried like this. I believe No More Forever was released as one of Bulmer's quick and dirty "CDRs lableled as CDs" (as have records by the Dransfields and Ray Fisher). No-one gets their royalties from these productions.

The only reason we tend to focus on Nic (or I at least) is that Dick at least has most of his records available on other labels and can still work. But all these artists are being swindled, and the world is being cheated of loads of great music!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 02 - 09:17 AM

There really isn't anything anyone can do now about this situation, IMO. Except let it go, and learn from it.

The lesson to be learned: musicians, get professional legal advice before you sign anything.

Again, IMO, anyone who suggests something can be done about CM/DB is either ignorant of UK law in these matters, or out for vengeance.

There is quite a number of latter inhabiting the UK folk music Internet forums, BTW.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 May 02 - 02:01 PM

Hey...Have I been hired by someone...??
Errrrr...Don't think so!...Least ways, I haven't signed a contract, and am not being payed.
Yes, Of course all musicians should think long and hard before signing anything. Especially in the Folk World, where sometimes the difference between making a living, or just about surviving, could actually come down to a few hundred record sales.
Maybe new and up & coming artists will read all of this and take note. It's not even as though we're talking 6 figure numbers here.
All I ask is fair play for someone who has not had the chance.
Ralphie.
(Getting off his soapbox...about time too, you cry!)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,john sutherland
Date: 03 May 02 - 05:36 AM

Have obtained a copy of a Celtic Music recording contract and reading it is like wading through mud. I do not know the legal situation regarding catalogues of artists work bought from insolvent companies but the Celtic Music contract contains certain obligations to the artist by this company. The company is obliged to make a statement to the artist every six months detailing record sales, royalties due,etc, royalties to be paid at the rate stated in the contract, this contract is over restrictive in every respect and is weighted heavily agaist the artist. Any artist who finds the terms of this contract have not been met has a strong case in law for the termination of same. Some artists have succesfully taken this course.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 02 - 08:28 AM

Are we supposed to surprised by this revelation? Is there someone out there who thought otherwise about CM and it's contracts? I don't know how many recording contracts you have seen in your day Mr. Sutherland, but they are all like wading through mud and are heavily weighted against the artists.

Old news is just that, and it seems to me the only purpose in dredging this up again is start another flame war. The subject has been talked to death here, and quite venomously at that. Are you here to stir things up and rip open old wounds Mr. Sutherland?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, IOM
Date: 03 May 02 - 12:21 PM

Wondered where the thread had got to! To P.H. - just remember that the bent lawyer Sharpley has been struck off the roll and I am sure that there must be organisations who would be very interested to hear from you if he communicates with his solicitor hat on. I have never seen a Celtic Records contract(and probably never will)but you can bet it's down there with the most disreputable of its type. Contracts like these have been tested in the Courts (Elton John etc) with great success and with artises recovering at least some of what they were owed. It's in your hands matey - good luck.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,john sutherland
Date: 05 May 02 - 09:02 AM

I have in fact read other recording contracts, and whilst I agree they are difficult for the layman to follow Celtic Music's contract's are unique in that few if any of the oblgations to the artists are met. I have no interest in starting a flame war, whatever that might be, I simply point out the Bulmer and Sharpley are still operating under various company names, Sharpley has been discredited, but David Bulmer is shrewd enough to have protected his assets. In answer to GUEST Andy, Neil Sharpley is still corresponding with music organisations on behalf of Celtic Music, but his letterhead which formerly detailed all companies and directors has been replaced with one with just the name Neil Sharpley, and the address 24, Mercer Row, Louth, Lincolnshire, no mention of Mr Bulmer, and replies to this address appear to be redirected through the local post office, whereas CM Records Ltd has an address at C/O Weaver Wroot, Pawnshop Passage, Mercer Row, Louth, Lincolnshire. I agree the the Nic Jones case was the most tragic of those involving this company, and congratulations are in order for those who kept this case alive, but there are many other artists seeking justice from Celtic Music. If my observations are old news, so be it, but I believe it is important to continue to focus on this company in the interest of the artists involved, and folk music in general.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 05 May 02 - 03:44 PM

Dear GUEST JS
Thak you for the valued information. I doubt if any sensible adult who has any real involvement in this sorry case could accuse you of Flaming (ie being insulting to others)
As you rightly say, many people have been dragged through this unending (but not for much longer, hopefully) saga.
It was IMO Nics predicament over the last 20 years that touched people to become in involved. With respect to all the other artists, the very fact that they are all still seemingly OK and performing, would not attract such attention from the public at large. (God Bless you Lal)
Thank you for your interesting contributions to the discussion...(along with many others, Andy, Nerd etc, etc)
To be continued, as they say!
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,jez. Leeds.
Date: 07 May 02 - 06:05 AM


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,jez. Leeds.
Date: 11 May 02 - 07:08 AM

Sorry computer breakdown. I just wanted to say that amazingly Bulmer still has his supporters in this area, where he seems to be regarded as a bit of a JACK THE LAD. No accounting for folk as they say.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Mike in Bristol
Date: 13 May 02 - 02:46 PM


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Mike, Horfield, Bristol
Date: 16 May 02 - 03:23 AM


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: okthen
Date: 16 May 02 - 12:00 PM

that's one heck of a stutter Mike


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 May 02 - 03:25 PM

I still haven't worked out how to do clickies, but there's an interesting post from Pat Cooksey on the Sick Note thread saying he's just "regained" the copyright from Celtic Music through legal action.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 16 May 02 - 03:43 PM

Kit
Noted...
Ta R xx


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Mike, Horfield, Bristol
Date: 17 May 02 - 12:43 AM

Stutter, yes! As you may realise I pressed the enter key - being a newcomer to both computers and to Mudcat. However I have read several Mudcat threads and eventually found the one on Mr Bulmer. He strikes me as the textbook example of a "dodgy" music business "entrepreneur". If he still has admirers anywhere I'd be amazed and was amazed to learn that in Leeds he still has friends in the music world. I play a little music myself and count myself fortunate therefore that I live in Bristol which puts Mr Bulmer some distance from the music scene here. Surely as we are now well and truly into the new century there is no place for old style music biz rip-offs. Didn't most of them happen in the last century. The moral perhaps is that Mr Bulmer is a "yesterday" man and if he's not then the parties he has finacially and professionally damaged should do their damndest to see that he is and never gets the chance to destroy new careers. It's a heartbreak business and it's particularly heartbreaking to see parasites like this still operate. Best wishes to all who challenge him. I'm going to press the return key n.........


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 03:53 PM

If you look in rec.music.folk or uk.music.folk, you'll see that Pat Cooksey has amassed a collection of "compelling evidence" against Bulmer, Sharpley and Celtic Music for breach of contract, fraud and negligence and has now announced his intention to commence proceedings.

I'm glad to hear that someone has put together a case that looks like it might stick in the courts. Pat seems to have done his homework.

You can find one copy of his announcement Here (I hope that works: it's a Google newsgroups page)

Anahata


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey, Germany.
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 04:50 PM

I was about to post to mudcat when I saw someone had beaten me to it, I discussed this matter with a lawyer here in Germany and he stated that it was the most blatant fraud on the part of a music publisher that he had ever seen, I had known for some time what was happening but it's taken a lot of research to gather the evidence, I have it now.

Best wishes,

Pat.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 05:38 PM

This is interesting in the light of the news announced on Mike Harding's radio programme on BBC on Wednesday the 10th July that Nic Jones's first LP has just been released on CD by GUESS WHO!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: RolyH
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 06:04 PM

I think you'll find that the Nic Jones release is one of a few CDR's 'trickled' out by Celtic Music over the last few years.Do not buy it.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 12:04 AM

Right. Do not buy it. Unless of course you actually want to listen to it. Which in turn would make you want to buy MORE Nic Jones CDs, wouldn't it? I can appreciate the "don't give the bastard a penny" argument. But really, if it helps sell more records for Nic (including the ones that Nic DOES get the royalties for) isn't that better than trying to shut off the supply everyone has been screaming forever for?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 03:57 AM

There's very little (if anything) on sale that Nic gets any royalties for. Buying the Bulmer CDRs (which aren't licensed by MCPS so production and royalty payment figures are untraceable) will not result in Nic getting anything.

Apart from that, there are some doubts cast on the quality of the copies. Treat these as bootlegs on sale at full price.

The argument in favour of free publishing of music on the net so that listeners are encouraged to buy real CD's from the artist is one that I support and believe, but it does not apply here.

Nic and Julia don't want us to buy these copies: they want the legal stuff sorted out so they get the money they are owed. Of course ther wishes are irrelevant: "GUEST: anonymous coward" knows better....

Duh.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey, Germany.
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 06:55 AM

The re-release of this Nic Jones C.D. by Celtic Music is not licenced by MCPS who collect royalties on record sales in the UK, therefore there will be no record of sales or royalties due under this title. MCPS have advised me that Celtic Music are no longer members of this organisation. Draw your own conclusions. Best wishes, Pat.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:22 AM

Just to clarify things a bit, "Unearthed" is on the level - it has nothing to do with Celtic Music/Bulmer etc. Buy that if you want to hear a recent(ish) release of anything by Nic Jones, but avoid the rest.

Another point I meant to make: every time you buy one of the Bulmer CDRs you are now knowingly contributing some part of 15 pounds to Bulmers legal expenses in his defence against Pat's suit. If that's what you really want to do...

Anahata


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 12:12 PM

Also this (just announced on uk.music.folk):

IN SEARCH OF NIC JONES

can be ordered from Mollie Music, 52 Newland Park Drive, York, YO10 3HP, UK

Cheques or IMOs in pounds sterling only payable to Nic Jones/Mollie Music Price 12.99 UK, 13.50 Europe, 14.00 USA

(Sorry if you saw it already in another Mudcat thread.) This is apparently a compilation from recordings of live performances. If you want to support Nic Jones, buy one of these!

Anahata


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 12:12 PM

Also this (just announced on uk.music.folk):

IN SEARCH OF NIC JONES

can be ordered from Mollie Music, 52 Newland Park Drive, York, YO10 3HP, UK

Cheques or IMOs in pounds sterling only payable to Nic Jones/Mollie Music Price 12.99 UK, 13.50 Europe, 14.00 USA

(Sorry if you saw it already in another Mudcat thread.) This is apparently a compilation from recordings of live performances. If you want to support Nic Jones, buy one of these!

Anahata


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 03:38 AM

Good on you Pat. You will need patience and perseverence in dealing with Bulmer and his pals, I am sure. Remember not to take any schtick from Sharpley the disgraced solicitor. He is struck off and should not be operating as a solicitor for Bulmer and/or his companies. Again, good luck and keep us informed as to progress - there's a lot of us who will be watching and hoping for your success.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,ivan@kissmurphy.com.au
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 04:30 AM

Hi out there,

I have read the relevant threads with interest, as a big fan of British folk music and an owner of rather ragged copies of No More Forever, Bright Phoebus, Nic Jones, the Dransfields etc.

Can anyone tell me when Trailer folded and when Celtic Music bought up the rights (ie how long has this been going on?).

Also, are Nic Jones, Gaughan etc personally involved in legal actions against Bulmer?

I gathered that legal actions are in process against Celtic Music, but who has brought them and on what grounds and with what end in mind?

Thanks anyone.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 08:00 AM

I noticed that the CD stall at Warwick Festival had several 'CM' re-releases on sale, including Bright Phoebus and a Mulligan one- sorry, can't find the details I wrote down, just now.

I had a word with the stall holders about the situation, which was all news to them, and I intend to contact the owner who wasn't available at the time.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 08:57 AM

Ah, so now the Jones camp is going to intimidate vendors who sell Celtic Music product?

Good God, you people are out of control.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 10:35 AM

Hello, Guest, sorry to see you're feeling touchy today. If you're referring to my message, I am not a member of the "Jones camp" if such a thing exists, but take an interest in furthering knowledge. The vendors were very interested to learn that they were selling CDRs as full-priced CDs, without knowing it- this could obviously reflect on them. Perhaps you would like to contact the said vendors and ask whether they would rather be made aware of this or not? I'll let you have the details if so.

The thought of me intimidating the two large lads in charge of the stall strikes me as rather amusing... in fact they were very interested in the situation and questioned me at length on the old record labels and so on.

Good God, you people are out of control. err- who are you suggesting should be in control of 'us people'? You?

Noreen the Intimidator


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 04:15 PM

I think Dave Burland's 'Dalesmans Litany' was re=issued by Celtic Music a couple of years ago - was this on CDR too?

Just been listening to some of my Trailer/Leader stuf on vinyl...Muckram Wakes, Pete and Chris Coe, Tony Rose...it's not just the 'Jones Camp', dear Guest - (whatever the 'Jones Camp' might be..) as I've said before there's a lot of good music and a lot of excellent artists involved!

All the best........Harry Basnett.

P.S. Well done O, Intimidating One!!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: RolyH
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM

It seems that all the CDs put out by CM are CDRs
I got caught when I bought The Dransfields 'Rout of the Blues'thinking it was the geniune article only to discover it was a CDR.
Spend time now looking for the original stuff on vinyl.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:01 AM

Roots Records at Warwick Festival were selling the following CDs, labelled as if still being produced by the original company (Mulligan, Leader etc) with only the smallest of lettering on the back saying:
Distributed by C.M.Distribution, Hookstone Park, Harrogate, North Yorkshire.

Paul Brady - Welcome Here Kind Stranger (Mulligan)
The Kipper Family Album - Since Time Immemorial (Dambuster)
Lal and Mike Waterson - Bright Phoebus (Leader)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:28 AM

uk.music.folk


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:51 AM

Thanks, Guest.

(It's a post from Pete Coe about Celtic Music's CDRs being sold as CDs by unwitting retailers.)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:04 AM

Pete Coe being one of the central figures in the Jones Jihad Camp (tm).


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: IanC
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM

Guest (nobody)

I think your sarcasm (?) is falling on deaf ears. Perhaps because Pete Coe's posts are perfectly reasonable ... I followed your links.

Possibly Pete Coe's got some reson to complain about Celtic Music?

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM

Noreen if these CDR's are as you describe, surely they are not just bootlegs but counterfeit? Trading Standards and the Police are obliged to investigate if this is the case. Not that Bulmer will care a jot about such trivia!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:41 AM

IanC...Guest (Jihad)'s sarcasm has been ignored by most for many months.
Don't worry about it..!
Does Mr B seriously think that people won't notice his dealings?
Ah Well, maybe this is one CDR sale too many and may bring about a visit from the boys in Blue...Fat chance!
Regards Ralphie
Using a mates cookie whilst on his Hols.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM

Well, if Dave Bulmer is such a crook, and the Jones Jihad'ers feel they can "prove" his guilt in public opinion forums such as this, why is it that the man isn't either rotting in the clink, or has been driven out of business by court judgments against him?

At the end of the day, no one has brought a successful case against the man, have they? Please do correct me if I'm wrong. Considering the amount of heat his name generates in English folk circles, isn't it a bit odd that he has not once had a successful court case brought against him? After all, Martin Carthy won his against Paul Simon, so it isn't as if there isn't some legal precedence.

The reason I've been so cantakerous is because the Jones Jihad'ers are such masters of misinformations, and so very good at whipping up this (as far as I can tell) unprecedented level of mass English folk hysteria about this one case. Which is not anything more than a morality tale for musicians--hire a good entertainment solicitor before you sign away the rights to your work.

Hey--it ain't just Nic Jones who has fallen victim to the vagaries of the music business types. Paul McCartney doesn't own the rights to his Beatles' songs either.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:21 PM

One small correction...As far as I know, there never was a Martin Carthy / Paul Simon court case. I don't think MC ever made a complaint. and the whole thing was settled by "Gentlemans agreement"...A much nicer way to proceed IMHO.
Oh that this could be resolved in a similar fashion...Not much chance of that I suppose.
I fail to see by the way, how the selling of substandard CD-Rs as pukka CDs can be construed as "Misinformation"...I've seen them, and it's a FACT !!!
Yours
Ayatollah Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:30 PM

Hey, we should get together... Ayatollah Ralphie and the Intimidator :0)

I suppose the "unprecedented level of mass English folk hysteria " is improved by calling this a Jihad, Guest?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:36 PM

Noreen...Hi...
"....and the Intimidators" Shurely!
Off subject for a mo....PJD "Flat Earth" is out now...
Definitely a Silver Disc....not Green or Blue!!
Love R xxx


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:45 PM

I don't care if it is improved, anymore than you care if you are engaging in a campaign of censorship against a record company and the vendors who sell their products, Noreen. Jones Jihad (tm) is a mellifluous catch phrase, and that is why I use it. It'll catch on, you wait and see.

Ralphie--this week your tactic is the CDR. Last week, it was don't but the Celtic Music reissues, because CM is evil and Nic Jones won't get royalties, which apparently aren't due him because he sold the rights to his music. Before that, it was CM is evil because they won't release the music that we all deserve to hear.

Tactic after tactic of yours to try and get the court of public opinion to do what you can't get a court of law to do, which is shut the CM man down. But Ralphie, even if CM went out of business tomorrow, and Dave Bulmer were thrown in jail for the rest of his days (probably a light sentence in your twisted way of thinking), it wouldn't get the rights back for Nic Jones. It wouldn't get the masters back to Nic Jones.

So really, what is the point beyond your bitterness and begrudgery (not to mention the Jones Jihad'ers nauseating self-righteous indignation)? Answer: there is none.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:54 PM

GUEST
Tell me who you are and I'll talk sensibly to you...Until you do, I'll try and keep my promise to myself, by not responding to Flamers.
I've offered my address to you many a time....No response.!!
Your Call
Ralphie
As I said before, I'm only temporarily on this name, as I'm away from my normal Machine at the mo....So, don't hold Derby Ram responsible for my postings...Ta


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:09 PM

I have not one iota of interest in talking to you personally Ralphie. You have waged a very PUBLIC campaign, and I keep harping at you (not flaming, but criticizing--engaging in perfectly LEGITIMATE criticism of you) because you refuse to answer PUBLICLY what your purpose is for engaging in such a highly visible public smear campaign. Because that is what you and Pete Coe and a number of others are doing.

Answer the charges publicly Ralphie. Come clean. Prove me wrong in the same public forum you are engaging in this smear campaign, and then maybe I'll sit down and have a drink with you.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:36 PM

Smear campaign..? Interesting concept.
Just stating the facts as I see them...CM own the rights to many many artists work. No Problem.They were brought, as I understand it, fairly and squarely from among others John Zollman of Highway Records along with other companies...see threads passim..No Problem..Releasing said CD's....No problem....Purporting them to be commercial CDs, when they are CD-Rs.(with a possibly short term shelf life)....Problem.
Not Being allied to MCPS, and therefore not fulfilling his requirement to recompense the artists concerned of their cut of the money....although not legally wrong, is IMO morally reprehensible...and is therefore a PROBLEM.!
Public enough for you ???
As for going public, my name is Ralph Jordan, producer of "Unearthed" by Nic Jones.
What's yours ?
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM

Bugger...
I let my anger get the better of me....and responded to a troll...Sorry Chaps, Will try not to do it again.
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:08 PM

Well Ralphie, I don't rush to judgment quite as quickly as those of you with economic interests tied up with CM. And I guess therein lies the difference.

Producer of Nic Jones CD has an economic interest in squashing the CM releases. Now, I agree that putting out a CDR and claiming it is a CD is wrong. And I'm as much on the artists' side as the next guy when it comes to them being paid fairly for their creative output, as well as being in control of how it gets used, when and by whom. But I don't have as much sympathy for professional musicians in the latter case as I used to. There really is no reason NOT to have legal representation now, or even 30 years ago in the folk music business.

Finally, I do draw the line when it comes to undertaking a public spear campaign to discredit people and drive them out of business when there is no proof of legal wrongdoing, which is what I think the Jones Jihad campaign is trying to do to Celtic Music and Bulmer.

As I said, you and Nic Jones have a financial stake in this discussion. You have a financial incentive, and I think money has been at the top of the agenda for the two of you all along, not morality.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 03:47 PM

Once again...and I feel a strong sense of deja-vu...we are not just talking about Nic Jones regardless of how many times "Guest" wishes to use the phrase 'Jones Jihad'!!

Colin Irwin, in the April 2000 edition of Froots, when reviewing the unexpected re-release of 'Dalesmans Litany' referred tothe "infamous lost generation of folk records gathering dust by a company seemingly for the sole purpose of gazing at their rather primitive sleeves" ( I rather like some of those sleeves but that's by the by ).

"Guest" made the point earlier that we've all been clamouring to get this material re-released and now it is we still aren't happy. We might be if, for once, things seemed to be done properly...not CD-R's slipping surreptitiously onto the market-place but the quality recording and markettong the "lost generation" deserve.

All the best.........Harry Basnett.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 04:25 PM

Hi Ralphie, look forward to hearing "Flat Earth" - you whetted my appetite...!

BTW you can log out and log back in again as you, on someone else's computer- though that may be a little late now... :0)

N
xx
(one each!)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 04:45 PM

I don't believe for an instant that if Bulmer re-released everything he's got to the prevailing standard, that people would simply let this matter drop. Because that isn't what this is about. It is about money for the people who stand to gain some, and about begrudgery among those who don't.

I'm just fed up with the sickening double standard from the lot of you. Fed up with the self-righteous moralizing. Maybe if the amount of energy poured into the villification campaign had been positive rather than negative, we'd see a high quality series of reissues by now.

As it is, I don't blame Bulmer for holding back at this point, considering the level of vehemence this well orchestrated anti-Celtic Music campaign has engaged in.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:21 PM

GUEST
Mmmmmm....Stand to gain a lot of money do I??
As Producer of "Unearthed"....I received the princely sum of ten bars of "Kit-Kat" (A UK confectionary) from Julia J.
All the work I undertook for the "Jones Jihad Clan Sect"...Oh Fuck, Whatever you call it, was done out of love for the family.....and my commitment to an old friend who'd fallen on hard times....What have you done?
Regards Ralphie xxxxxx


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:44 PM

I've done a lot of things in my life Ralphie, who wants to know?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 07:24 PM

GUEST...
Please tell, I'd love to know.
Regards Ralphie xx


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Ivan (ivan@kissmurphy.com.au)
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 09:13 PM

Hang about! There's some oversight in the arguments you are putting forward, fellow 'Guest'. You keep reiterating that there is 'no proof of legal wrongdoing' by CM/Bulmer, yet you yourself concede, at the least, that it is wrong to market CDRs at full price, as though they were legitimately manufactured (instead of bearing a bright red sticker stating 'WARNING: THESE ARE LOW-COST, LOW-QUALITY CDRs WHICH CUT EXPENSES BY AVOIDING ROYALTY PAYMENTS'). This is surely some sort of fraud, in terms of the Trade Practices Act (or whatever the equivalent is in the UK - I am writing from Australia). Having conceded that this is, in your own words, 'wrong', how do you maintain there is no proof of legal wrongdoing. Even if, in the tortuous terms of the law (which have little to do with ethics), this cannot definitively be proved to be LEGALLY malfeasant, then it is surely a sign of devious and unethical business practice. You also state that you are as much "on the artists' side as the next guy when it comes to them being paid fairly for their creative output, as well as being in control of how it gets used, when and by whom", yet you ultimately dismiss these claims/rights(?) because you say (and I personally don't know any details of the actual contractual/legal history here and so don't know if what you say is correct) that they signed those rights away out of, what is, at worst, a youthful naivety/ignorance. Should they really have to pay all their lives for such a thing? Regardless of the exactitudes of legal arguments, what about the ethics of it? Why is it really that you take the stance you do? Surely it is clear that Bulmer has not acted ethically, either with regard to his customers or the artists whose material he now "owns" (surely, in the larger framework, there is something wrong with a legal system that allows one person to utterly reap the benefits of others' creative labour with no real effort or input from him). He is also showing no regard for the public interest, in that he is utterly placing his self-interest against the larger interests of the public culture, in that he is withholding a very substantial contribution to UK culture from that public, for reasons that are not clear. Hypothetically, how would everyone feel if it were conceivable for a book publising company to buy up the rights to the works of, say, a large portion of the quality literature written in the UK between, say, 1970 and 1990, and then almost entirely withholding it from print. There would be an outcry and such a publisher would be howled down on the grounds of denying the public access to a vital part of its self-defining heritage. Why do you, by implication, side with Bulmer in this argument? Why do you not recognise the basic injustice here, for it is this that upsets people? It is clearly unjust, whatever the legalities? It is hard not to imagine you have some personal axe to grind here. Why do you not declare your identity. You pounced, with alacrity and delight, when you thought (mistakenly) that you had perceived some self-interest on Ralph Jordan's part. Could it be that you have some sort of interest in the Bulmer position and were delighted to think you had found self-interest in others because you perceive it in your own position and are stung by the thought that the vitriol could be turned on you if your interests were declared? Besides, what of the fact that Nic Jones stands to gain here? So he should. HE sat down and taught himself the guitar and attained a state of high accomplishment. HE went through the archives and chose the material. He pondered it long and hard, invented tunes, spent hours exploring the possibilities of melody, rhythm and tuning on his guitar and in his mind. He toured up and down the country to earn a living. HE played the material in the studio. HE sang it. HE created it. He gave a lifetime of hard-won expertise to it. What did Bulmer do? Paid a pittance for a bankrupt company then sells the music on poorly pressed material while so arranging his affairs to dodge his debt to the artists he makes money from, a debt both MORAL and ETHICAL if not legal, and it should be legal, as even under a fully legal regimen most of the profits would be (unjustly) his anyway. How can you defend this?

I would like to know what, if any, legal action HAS been taken against Mr Bulmer, by whom, and how the action fared. Have people made the effort of contacting the police, or a Consumer Complaints body, about the CDRs? Has anyone challenged his refusal to pay royalties?

Ivan


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM

There was one case that I am aware of which supposedly was settled out of court against Bulmer. That case was detailed in article in the Guardian in 1997, which stated:

"...two alleged victims...Gary and Glen Millar of the Durham-based Whiskey Priests, who received no royalties for their albums "Nee Gud-Luck", and "The First Few Drops", after signing up with Celtic Music in the Eighties. In 1993 they took their case to the HIgh Court and, in an out-of-court settlement, obtained costs and the recording and publishing rights to everything they had done."

Whether the awards actually were as stated above or not, I have no idea. Such settlements usually require neither party disclose the terms of the settlement. The same article also claimed:

"At least five cases have been brought against Mr Bulmer's music firms. Some have been defended by Neil Sharpley, his partner and lawyer."

I've never heard about any of these, other than in this article. I can't vouch for the veracity of the claims made therein either. But before people get all up in arms about the awful partners of Mr. Bulmer, they would do well to remember that another of Mr. Bulmer's parters, for 15 years, was Dick Gaughan. Dick Gaughan himself has since admitted that he gave Bulmer advice to buy up the catalogs so either an academic institution wouldn't get them, or an American interest like the Library of Congress plunder the "national treasure" (sic) of the nation's folk traditions. Apparently, what is good for the goose is not good for gander when it comes to plundering other nation's cultural treasures.

Of course, Gaughan himself since claims to have been hung out to dry in the partnership too.

Notice how I'm not defending anyone here. Just pointing out what a convoluted mess this is. Gaughan himself said he doubted that any artist could get a court to overturn the issue of the rights to the music and the masters. And he said that in the very same thread that the Guardian article was posted to, so it isn't as if he wasn't aware of the settlement for the Millars. Yet he, like everyone else, has remained silent on the issue of the other court cases alluded to in Guardian article. I have no reason why.

There is no condoning what Bulmer is doing. But there is also no condoning the ways that the Jones Jihad'ers have reacted to this situation either. An eye for eye leaves two men blind, after all.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:57 PM

Oh, and I meant to quote from a post over in uk.music.folk not too long ago, by Michael Ollier. He summed this whole thing up quite brilliantly I thought. Here is just an excerpt of this post:

I...had dealings with many musicians. The name of DB comes up quite often. I will not say who they are, that's for them to discuss (but there are a lot of big names) but they all snarl at the mere mention of the name. One female performer went apoplectic. One guy turned to me and said "Don't mention that fuckers name to me again" and stormed off. He didn't speak to me the rest of the weekend. One of the best was one of DGs fellow members in Clan Alba, who kept me regalled with a tirade for a couple of hours in a Glasgow hotel, nest to the railway station which I'm sure Dick knows very well. He didn't like my bodhran jokes however, may he RIP...I have heard of a couple of people 'sticking up' for him (one prominent folkie magazine in particular and, sad to say, one very funny musician who I rather like... can't get his records though!!))... but after all the stories you've heard you should think of others part in this...We also advised some people not to sign with him, then watched as their music was suppressed. People (especially musicians) never learn: especially Northumbrian Pipers!!

End quote


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Ivan
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:02 AM

Thanks to the last contributor for the information. Very interesting and impartial account. Do you know in what way the musicians are said to have 'signed their rights away'. Did their contracts stipulate that they would be paid a one-off sum for the recording with no royalties due or some such thing (once de rigeur in the Jamaican music industry)?

Cheers

Ivan


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:24 AM

Ivan, I have no idea what the Celtic Music contracts say, as I've never seen one. However, there are laws which regulate the payment of royalties after the rights have been sold. In other words, once the Leader/Trailer catalogs were sold, the artists' rights went to the new owner, and didn't revert to the artists, as they would in a more perfect music business world in capitalist societies.

I'm also willing to stick my neck out and make a WAG that most of the people shooting off their mouths about this subject have never seen a Celtic Music contract, or have any idea how business law works in this area either. Of course, that hasn't stopped them from spreading lots of moralistic opinions and misinformation as facts.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM

Just a little thought...
I wonder what would happen if we all bought a copy of a Celtic Music CDR, copied it for our friends for Christmas, enclosing a note inviting the recipient to make a donation directly to the artist/artists involved in the original recording.
Hopefully the results of this action would be twofold.
Firstly, The music would be back in the public domain, and secondly the artists would recieve some recompense for their work, which they would not otherwise get.
Any comments?
Cheers
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:06 AM

Definition of "JIHAD" according to Chambers dictionary:
2.A Fervent Crusade.

Not being a Muslim myself, the first does not really apply, and as for the 2nd definition...Guilty as charged!
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 AM

Could be a great idea Ralphie, but why put ANY money into CM Records coffers? As these titles appear "iff -y", why not simply organise things so just ONE person buys a copy and then copies that bigtime? Leave CM racks full of unsaleable merchandise. As CM appears to be booting/counterfeiting the things anyway,it's a bit difficult to imagine why they could do without blowing the lid on their own practices.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 08:46 AM

Good idea--bootleg the Celtic Music CDRs, advertise it on the internet (making it explicit and clear that you are bootlegging on behalf of Nic Jones, of course) and then see what the MU does to defend Nic. I'm sure they'll agree that since you have the moral high ground, that bootlegging is JUST FINE!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Ivan
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM

Thanks again Guest for your observations. One question though: when you say that the artists' rights go to the new owner and not the artist, does that mean that all royalties fall to the new owner and that Bulmer is thus under no legal obligation to pay royalties (or any other payment)? If that is the case then it would indeed seem difficult to get anywhere on this front, although surely there is some recourse over the issue of CDRs, or could this also be interpreted as falling within the law? Is the answer (for new artists) to ensure that any contract stipulates that all rights return to them if the catalogue is sold on? Is it possible to exert sufficient sway with a record company to get such a contract drawn up?

Cheers


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:38 AM

Ivan, I'm no legal expert, and you should never get legal advice/opinions from lay people in internet chat forums--especially folk music chat forums engaged in the kind of misinformation this issue has generated!

OK, having qualified my statement first, I will simply say it is my understanding that the reason why the alleged aggrieved musicians have not pursued court cases against Bulmer is because the courts are highly unlikely to overturn Bulmer's rights of ownership to both the masters and the rights, which he gained fair and square when he bought the Leader/Trailer catalogs. It is also my understanding of UK law that the masters and the rights go to the new owner of the catalog upon their sale to a third party, unless otherwise stipulated in the original contract. So as I understand it, the musicians who originally signed contracts with Leader/Trailer didn't have stipulations in their contracts for the masters and rights to revert to them, rather than a third party, upon sale of the Leader/Trailer companies.

As I've said repeatedly, it isn't Dave Bulmer's fault that so many folk musicians fail to exercise their legal rights by refusing to consult qualified solicitors to review their contracts and advise them on how to proceed.

Especially, as Michael Ollier pointed out, Northumbrian pipers who WERE forewarned, forearmed, advised by many seasoned professionals, etc etc!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: graham_t
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:57 AM

I wonder if retailers such as HMV, Borders etc (where I have occasionally seen CM CDRs for sale) would sell them if they knew they were CDRs. I've never purchased anything, even on the smallest of labels from any reputable retailer that has turned out to be CDR though there could be other examples I don't know of.

What happens in the case of tracks licensed from CM to other labels as has happened recently. Do the royalties go straight to the artists or back to CM and hence ??


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:52 PM

As I understand there now exists the notion/case law of "moral rights". Not being a lawyer I am unsure just what this means, but it sounds as if it leaves a loophole to be tested in law when a record company apparently fails to honour its obligations to artistes. I am also told by a friend who has dealt with Bulmer that now Sharpley has been "defrocked" by his Professional body, Bulmer is using a London solicitor called Nick Kanaar who, strangely in view of the circumstances, claims to work for "oppressed" artistes. I wonder what he would make of all the hostility and (alleged) impropriety of his client? Funny old World.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:11 PM

Andy, could you give us some solid information on these legal "moral rights" loopholes of which you speak? I'm damn suspicious about that one. Like citing some case law (you claim there is some) that would be relevant?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:22 PM

Grahamt--royalties always go to the owner of the rights, and often that is not the same person as the composer of the song. That is what I was alluding to when I mentioned Paul McCartney.

The Urban Legends website has an excellent little synopsis of the issues involved in these sorts of circumstances:

http://198.64.129.160/music/artists/jackson.htm


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:38 PM

Here are some "straight from the horse's mouth" websites with more information. Musicians: EDUCATE YOURSELVES!

BMI's FAQ:

http://www.bmi.com/licensing/business/generalfaq.asp

UK specific websites:

The Performing Rights Society:

http://www.prs.co.uk/

Mechanical-Copyright Protection Society:

http://www.mcps.co.uk/

British Academy of Composers and Songwriters:

http://www.britishacademy.com/

British Music Rights:

http://www.bmr.org/html/guide2.html

The Guild of International Songwriters and Composers UK:

http://www.songwriters-guild.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 PM

Dear GUEST (0846)
Please read what is written. Far from selling copies, I propose to give them away to anyone who wants one. It would cost me money to produce them admittedly, but at least it would deny income to CM. And, as the artists concerned wouldn't get a penny either way. I don't see that there is a problem. Do you?
Of course, if any artist wished to proceed with another course of action...fine.
Graham T. Are you referring to the various anthologies of revered artists released, recently by another well known UK company perchance?
Andy I.O.M. Funny Old World indeed !
Regards all...Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:13 PM

Well Ralphie, I think you are asking the wrong person for approval of your scheme to defraud. You do know that they all can be contacted online, and all your fraud schemes you are going on about reported? And that of course would mean an investigation, and all sorts of inconvenient things like that.

Come to think of it, why hasn't Nic Jones availed himself of these services?

How about you ask the question of the MU? Or the Mechanical-Copyright Society? Ring up the UK office of the Guild of International Songwriters, and see what they have to say about your scheme for defrauding a busines person who's practices you don't like?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:17 AM

Ah! fine GUEST.
I don't think that floating an idea in an open Web forum for general discussion is a hanging offence just yet!!

BTW, As you are so obviously associated with Celtic Music in some way. I find it surprising that you keep replying to all this, thus keeping the subject alive. I would have thought that the last thing that Mr B would want is for people to be discussing his activities world wide. Looking back through this whole sorry tale, we've contributions from Europe, the US, Australia, NZ. And there are now a lot more people interested.

Pat Cooksey....Any updates to your situation?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:50 AM

Sorry but as I said, I only wrote what I understood. Moral rights do exist. Perhaps the best person to contact about such matters might be Mr Kanaar.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 05:22 AM

Anyone interested might like to check this web page:

www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/ faq/copyright/moral_rights.htm


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey. Germany.
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 05:48 AM

Details of my case are in the hands of a lawyer in London and I intend to proceed.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 09:39 AM

Ralphie, I have no connection whatsoever to Bulmer or Celtic Music. I know you really want to believe I do however, because that makes it easy for you to justify in your mind the vengeful tactics you've been using in a sad attempt to deflect criticism for the ways the Jones camp has handled this. All I have to say to that Ralphie is, its your karma, and I'm glad it ain't mine.

As to the moral rights issue, I realize it exists. But as a quick trip to the website provided by Andy shows, it isn't used in these sorts of economic disputes over who owns rights and masters. The moral rights case law is used when someone takes the song or play or book of another, changes it in some substantial way (ie something slanderous or disrespectful, for example) that could damage the reputation of the artist who originally created the product.

It would be extremely difficult to prove Nic's case, or any others, was one of moral rights, rather than economic rights. Again, as I've said over and over, I don't think the Jones camp is 100% right and Bulmer 100% wrong, or vice versa. Nothing is ever that simple.

And Pat, I wish you the very best of luck with your case.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 12:05 PM

Another clause in the moral rights issue is that certain "integrity rights" also exist when an artists work is being derogated. I imagine that there is little doubt that an artists work is being derogated when it is home crafter (almost) on a CDR. Add a crap prited inlay slip and a stick on label suggest to me that it is indeed an inferior piece. Also perhaps the misleading ident of the CDR's intimating (deceiving??) one into thinking its an "original" again suggests to me that the artists moral and integrity rights have very much been infringed. Making further enquiries about Mr Bulmer's new solicitor reveals that he is a consultant with Collyer Bristow in London and that he is the man who assists new artists and musicians, through the BBC, with sage advice on how to avoid the traps used by Celtic Music/Records/Distribution. As I said, its a funny old World.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM

Non-legal minded people "imagining there is little doubt" Andy, isn't exactly the same thing to a solicitor taking on a case they don't think they can win. I believe these circumstances are ones that concern, in a legal sense, economic rights, not moral rights. But as I said, I'm no legal expert, and I'm guessing your aren't either. Which is why no one is paying us for legal opinions, eh? ;-)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 03:58 AM

To GUEST I must reply that in "these circumstances" economic AND moral rights are infringed. The notion of moral rights is now incorporated in law within the Copyright Acts and was presumably not just thrown in to the Act as an afterthought. Are you inferring that Celtic Music issuing poorly packaged, poorly labelled CDR's and pasing them off effectively as original recordings does not infringe moral and integrity rights - leaving aside the other matter of economic "economising" by that company? I am not a lawyer and I dont know an lawyers closely enough to have anything ther than personal views. You sound as if you do ..... if you know what I mean.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 04:05 AM

Isn't it time for part 4?

PS It is not 'old computers' which are the cause of the problem, it is the slow dial-up lines. Even the very oldest 486 can cope with the transmission speed (but maybe not under the burden of the Windows operating system!)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Guest. John.
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 06:15 AM

The laws regarding intellectual and moral rights are to protect the owner of copywright. In the case of Mr Bulmers re'issues it would appear that he owns the copywrights in question. MCPS/PRS and other collection agencies do not intervene in disputes between members and it is therefore up to the artist or artists concerned to regain the rights to their work through the courts. If any of the artists have recording contracts with Celtic Music and the terms of these contracts have not been honoured then they have a case in law under breach of contract. I have no idea of the position with regard to music catalogues aquired from other labels.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 03:10 PM

I should say that we aren't really dealing with crap packaging, paste-on labels and such. Sellers as well as buyers could well mistake these CDRs for real CDs, because they're pretty well packaged, which is the point. It's not super, top-of-the-line packaging, but then neither were the orignal LPs. I don't think the "derogation" argument would work on those grounds.

But I do think that what our GUEST is suggesting, ie that no solicitor would take the case because they can't win it, is wrong. (Well, it's obviously wrong because Pat Cooksey's solicitor has taken the case!) Many solicitors would advise against a suit because in the event that you win, there is a danger that Bulmer will dissolve the old company or transfer the assets in question to a new one. He has done so before, which accounts for the Celtic Music, CM distribution, Leader, Trailer, and other labels he's released his CDs on.

What he is doing as regards non-payment of royalties is clearly illegal, AND immoral, but it remains to be seen how enforceable the laws are given the loopholes in the system. I hope Pat Cooksey's case shows that such a case CAN be won, and can be enforced.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM

Actually Nerd, I wasn't suggesting that no solicitor would take the case because they can't win it. Solicitors take on cases they KNOW they can't win all the time, if they want to earn a living at law. Solicitors fees are not based upon whether they win or not, unless they take on the case for a % of the settlement or judgment.

Again, none of us are solicitors or entertainment lawyers are we? So to make absolutist statements about what each of us personally *believes* (as opposed to knows) is right or winnable, seems a bit silly to me. All we are discussing is pure conjecture. And I do believe if there were a really solid legal case to be put forward against Bulmer, someone certainly would have done it by now. Like it or not, the law may well be more on Bulmer's side than the artists.

I don't like that fact, but unless Pat is able to come up with a substantial judgment or settlement, I think we should all just accept things as they are, and move on. Nobody is holding a gun to artists' heads and making them sign contracts with Bulmer, right?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 05:24 PM

I think most of us would like the music to be made available and packaged to proper professional standards! Both in the recording and in the royalties.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: RolyH
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 05:59 PM

pavane

Like it!Direct and to the point.Basically there is a lot of good music that is unavailable to the listening public in a decent (and legal?) format, if at all.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,guest. John.
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 12:50 AM

Mr Bulmer may be all the things people say of him but a fool he is not. He will be fully aware of the legal position regarding his re'issues and would not put his head in a noose unless he was certain of his position under copywright law. Moral or intellectual rights do not concern him, and it is therefore up to the artists concerned to challenge him in the courts if they believe they have a case.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 04:42 AM

We have heard from many people who have dealt with CM and Bulmer etc - not often with fond memories either. Of course Bulmer puts his head in the noose when trading near to the edge of decency etc but in the past he has always had his partner Sharpley to fire off the poisonous and threatening letters. I am sure that he is probably still relying on Sharpley to do that even though he no longer can call himself "solicitor". When hit by the sort of vitriol that Sharpley can write (AND I HAVE SEEN SUCH A LETTER) it is quite possible to understand why people take cover. In the case of the Sharpley designed CM Records contract, I wonder if the artist is recommended to seek independednt legal advice? I understand that this was rarely if ever the case. It is very likely (perhaps others may agree) that at least one of the unnamed GUEST correspondants is Bulmer and or Sharpley and if so lads, why not come clean and let us see a CM contract?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 06:57 AM

I think this business of CM's contracts is not relevant to most of the works, which were recorded under contracts with other companies.

As for obtaining any settlement, as discussed above, even if you can afford the expense and win the case, you will very likely be unable to collect your winnings. 'Phoenix' companies are very often used, so much so that the Government has created legislation which can be used to remove the protection of the limited company, and make Directors personally liable for debts - but this is unlikely to help in this case.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:25 PM

Hi Chaps.
I think it is about time that I bowed out of this discussion. My personal spat with our well regarded GUEST has muddied the waters somewhat.
I'll continue to read everything that is posted on this thread, and please keep it alive.
I still contend that the situation regarding CM and the artists (and NO. "Mrs GUEST", I don't just mean NJ...) is a very sad situation, and I'm very glad that a lot of people have realised this fact.
Having seen the list of artists affected by Mr B's involvement in the English Folk Scene....makes me very angry...But....there you go.
To Pat Cooksey.....Good luck mate...to Andy Iom., Pavane, Noreen,Nerd etc, and all the other people who feel strongly..Keep going. I will too, but in another way. Not in this forum.
One way or another, Mr Bulmer will have to give in eventually.

Thanks to you all for your contributions.
All the best Ralphie
PS. Oh, and thanks to our un-named GUEST for some interesting thoughts, and for not answering the majority of questions posed...It was fun.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:53 PM

Andy, you are giving what looks like it could be contradictory information here. Would you mind clarifying it for me?

First you said that Bulmer had obtained new counsel (8 Aug 12:05):

"Making further enquiries about Mr Bulmer's new solicitor reveals that he is a consultant with Collyer Bristow in London and that he is the man who assists new artists and musicians, through the BBC, with sage advice on how to avoid the traps used by Celtic Music/Records/Distribution."

But later you said (10 Aug 4:42):

"...in the past he has always had his partner Sharpley to fire off the poisonous and threatening letters. I am sure that he is probably still relying on Sharpley to do that even though he no longer can call himself "solicitor"."

Could you clarify this information for us? Do you have first hand information as to who the solicitors are for Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer? It would probably be helpful to someone like Pat, who is trying to compile information about it for their own case.

As to the contract issue, I agree with Guest John. There is one set of artists who who signed contracts with Celtic Music directly. They have a different set of legal issues with Bulmer than do the artists who originally signed contracts with the record labels which were subsequently bought up by Bulmer when those labels went out of business.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, I-O-M
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 04:19 AM

I wonder if Guest who queried my postings is a CM'er? As I said in an earlier posting, I have a pal who has dealt with Bulmer and Sharpley (and not just in relation to their record/publishing business)and he is adamant that whilst another solicitor is appointed he is virtually a "front". Most of us suspect that Mr B would be terminally maudlin if he has to use his own cash to fund anything - least alone an expensive London lawyer. Logic suggests also that Mr S calls the shots and instructs the lawyer, Mr Kanaar, so the nasty regime continues virtually seamlessly. Pat may have had similar dealings but as his case is probably sub judice he may not wish to comment. I am sure he is aware. Sorry also to see Ralphie leave the forum. Come back soon. I too will not be writing further but will watch with immense interest how the legal case brought by Pat proceeds. Good luck to everyone who has an interest in bringing this seedy company to its knees after all it has done to damage folk music and some of its most important artistes.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 05:44 AM

I hope that someone will still keep us up to date with progress. I have no other information available than is found in these threads.

(PS : To clarify - I do not personally know ANY of the other thread contributors, nor am I connected in any way with Nic or any of the other artists, so I have no source of 'inside' information)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Mike, Horfield, Bristol
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 12:26 PM

I checked out Mr Kanaar and you might like to see the extract on him from the web; 31 May 2001 - Kanaar joins forces with Collyer-Bristow

Renowned music and entertainment lawyer Nick Kanaar and his practice, Kanaar & Co, are to join forces on 1 June 2001 with the entertainment team at Holborn firm Collyer-Bristow, led by partner Howard Ricklow. The appointment of Kanaar, and assistant Neil Parkes, brings the Collyer-Bristow team to five lawyers representing a rapidly expanding client list featuring well known names from Status Quo to dance music act Chicane. Kanaar is of course a well-known figure in the industry, and has been active on both contentious and non-contentious issues for many years.

"I am delighted to be able to draw on the skills of my colleagues at Collyer-Bristow who are experts in particular areas of law that will be invaluable to many of my clients." says Kanaar of his decision to join Collyer-Bristow. "I have always been driven by the concept of providing a 'cradle-to-grave' service for my clients and increasing regulation and specialisation means that this is becoming more difficult as a specialist practitioner. I can now call on legal experts in areas such as e-commerce, property, family issues and personal tax".

For further information contact:

Nick Kanaar, Collyer-Bristow, 020 7242 7363

Now it seems he is working for Bulmer! Still it should be a warning to any musicians who might be considering taking legal advice to look elsewhere. I really do believe that if a lawyer struts his stuff as "the artistes friend" he should be very careful of who he supps with. In view of the legal case being brought by Pat I wonder if the BBC are aware that their expert serves also "the other side"? As you say Andy (I.O.M.) it really is a funny old World.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM

I'm not sure that the BBC considers Celtic Music it's "enemy" in the sense that people posting to these threads consider Celtic Music theirs.

I have no insider information either pavane. Nor do I personally know any of the people who inhabit this forum as members. Just an observer with a healthy amount of skepticism about the villification of others in public forums.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,John, Horfield, Bristol
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 02:42 AM

I too am sute that the BBC does not consider CM to be its enemy and I never suggested it either. The point that you have missed, guest, is that the BBC now employ Collyer Bristow to advise musicians how to avoid the "bad guys" of the music business. As this advice is offered by a solicitor )Mr Kanaar?)who has a crusade against bad practice it is hardly acceptable that he should also work for the likes of Dave Bulmer and his companies. Is there no morality in the legal business and is everything up for grabs if the price is right? As a musician who has learned the hard way over many years it now seems that the only way to learn about music biz rip-offs is to experience them. If the BBC offers in house advice it really should ensure that the solicitor it engages has clean hands. Essentially it's down to morals of which there are very few in the music business and those who feed off it. But I'm sure that the unnamed gust will take issue with that as well!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: nickp
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM

Hmmm... 'morality in the legal business' ... now where was that thread about oxymorons? *Big Grin*


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 07:27 AM

Sort of like saying there is such a thing as "clean money".


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Dick Gaughan
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 09:21 PM

I am not a mudcat regular as I don't allow cookies on my machine but my attention has been drawn to the fact that my name has been bandied about in this thread so I stopped by to take a look. Most of the references to me have been posted by some anonymous troll and I don't enter into discussion with people who post hearsay to public forums but don't have the cojones to identify themselves.

Just to clarify.

I have never at any time been "involved" with CM Distribution in any capacity other than as an artist for whom they released two albums in the 1980s.

I was a partner in Redesdale Recording Studios, where the other partners were Geoff Heslop, Neil Sharpley and David Bulmer - this studio had no direct connection with CM other than the identity of two of the four partners. CM also bought two solo albums and one band album, "The Boys of the Lough", from Highway who had bought them from Leader.

I had been friends with Dave Bulmer for 20 years until 1995 when I made several discoveries which caused me to terminate all dealings with him. I have not spoken to or seen him or had contact of any kind with him since then.

As I said, due to the cookie requirement I'm not a Mudcat member but I have a high opinion of it and of many of the regulars here, which is why I'm posting this. I frequent the newsgroup uk.music.folk and so if anyone wishes me to read or respond to any discussion, they should post there (although I would advise that this topic has been flogged to death there).

In the meantime, the accuracy of any information posted about me should be either verified directly with me - I'm ridiculously easy to communicate with - or taken with a huge shovel of salt.

Especially that posted by nameless "guests".

Cheers Dick Gaughan


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 09:33 PM

Dick, thanks for the clarification. I consider it the final word on the subject. I was hoping you would stop in.

Now........come to Michigan so's I can corner you and sing songs.

All the very best,

Mick Lane mlane@accn.org


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